"Oh, you want to play the war widow? Knock yourself out! Maybe this is hell right now; you and me, trapped in a room, no way out!" God, that's so brutal.
@@gkcn9688 It's not just the blood on his hands. #THEMISSUS was a title given to one specific person. Someone who always saved him. The housewife that IS the house. The TARDIS.
@@kyrauniversal river is the one who marries tje doctor and she is tje cjild of the tardis . They are a big family and they accepts it that way. Cheer ip it's a ship
I love this idea that with different faces, the Doctor can love or dislike the same person. 9 scarred by the time war needs something stable and solid to hold onto, so he picks Rose - an ordinary woman. By the time 11 comes around, the reason he picks his companions is because there's a mystery and he's interested. Of course 11 would be into River, she's the biggest mystery in his life. It's also because the time war doesn't hurt as much so he's more open to love and someone who thinks he is a good person. If you're filled with self-hatred, someone saying you are a good person or that they love you can be very scary.
This feels more in line with the 9 we know than what we've seen so far through all the other big finish stories. Also Rose must've been something really special if she was the only one to get the Doctor to love again.
I'm going to add to my headcanon that it was 9's encounters with River and the events of this story in particular that stuck with him in his subconscious and shaped him into the Doctor we saw on screen.
he admires what river and he will have in the end 9 and river even grew old together. so that is why he became normal again . So river 's really speacial to bring him to life again
Yknow, before I listened to this clip, if you'd told me the Doctor looked in the diary I'd be shocked, but if you told me it was Nine? It makes perfect sense. I think he really is the only one that would.
The reason Nine became so besotted with Rose was because she reminded him so much of himself - they were 'equals' that were constantly pushing the other to do better or be better - it's not surprising that he'd think the relationship with River is messed up and, as a refugee hurtling across space with his arms full of trauma, would be infuriated that so many other versions of himself would be totally alright with the status quo that is their relationship. Especially given that he'd also likely read about her encounters with *other* versions across his past - since she's met other past Doctors before him - and erased all their memories. *He* can't have anything with River - *He* can't be who she needs him to be - hell, not even 12 will be *exactly* who she needs him to be... she'll still die in the library. Their time will still end. It's fucked up - it's no surprise he'd lash out at her. Try to push her away... If, for no other reason, than her own good.
@kyrauniversal yeah, and i would even argue, even the master wouldn't dare bring up doctor and river's relationship for the old times sake if they ever find out about the full details, well atleast missy wouldn't
@@junny186River has met many versions of The Master on audio including the War Master who looked her up and knows about her “killing” him on Lake Silencio! However in any encounter with The Doctor on audio he never mentions River to The Doctor as far as I’m aware! The Master always seems to avoid spoilers like that!
It’s not the first time. ‘The Lady in the Lake’ touched on it a little where River bemoans the fact that the Doctor is the only close relationship in her life, even though he’s not a reliable presence since she never knows how well he’ll know her when they meet. And it’s this fact that spurns her on to try and track down her clones from Demon’s run in the hopes of finding some kind of family.
i mean... Moffat did state at one point that the whole "River Song" storyline is heavily inspired by the novel "The time traveler's wife"(watch the tv series if u r like me and too lazy to read)
@@mr.valeyard8810 more like himself I know he’s older but sometimes in the audio he sounds lighter with his voice like he’s doing the doctor slightly different
@@lydiarodgersit’s more to do with the fact that in the story both The Doctor and River are caught in a temporal….something (I don’t understand the story myself) they’re both decaying physically, River’s decaying faster than The Doctor hence why her character sounds off! It’s by design! That’s how good her acting is!
Beautiful rescore. I totally believe this would be the Doctor who would sneak a peek at the diary out of mistrust. I love how this story goes. He softens through his time with her, while she takes him as he is instead of who he will be. And I am totally in agreement with your head cannon that this time with River isn't completely lost in Nine's emotional memory. That could be why even though Ten doesn't know her, he cries when she dies, as if hearing her say his name awakens something in him.
I think what River fails to understand is that the ninth Doctor in his words is brutality honest and is a big contrast to his 11 counterpart. If Nine and Eleven ever met and have the discussion about the life of River Song, neither would see eye to eye on how the situation would be handled. In the end I think nine would dislike the 11th because of his personality and the secrets that he keeps from others.
@@kyrauniversal Yes, oddly enough 9 and 6 would be the most alike and would be unstoppable together, yet their individual dress choices would be a negative for the other LOL
@@stonebaxter ironic since I recall in an interview Colin Baker said that his original idea for his Doctor's costume was similar to what Eccleston got.
This kind of highlights why the Doctor and River are one of my favourite relationships in fiction. Not in an "OTP coule goals" way, but in a "these two are a fascinating complicated mess" way.
damn. I will miss Eccleston in Big Finish. What a great series, and this story as the last episode (for a while, I hope) is just chef's kiss. I won't spoiled it, but let's say it's one of the most important story in defining The Doctor and River's relationship.
@KoobanHooves1 considering that next year will be the 20th anniversary of series 1, and that Eccleston said at a recent convention that he’s open to the idea of a reunion, I’m hoping the next boxset will feature Rose.
Damn. I always thought, especially after «11th Doctors, 11th stories» that Ninth Doctor met Rose freshly after regeneration, get refuse from her, and traveled alone for a hundred years until character from his story give him advice to go back to Rose. And I suppose, now this story isn't working? Now Ninth first traveled for one hundred years and then met Rose?
I don't know which part of the timeline this part of River's story is and I haven't listened to the full story to know how it ended but from listening to this alone, I'd like to believe 9 was the last Doctor River met before she met 12, which would make sense why she thought the Doctor never loved her...
We know that this takes place after The Time of Angels / Flesh and Stone, as the Doctor reads River’s account of it back to her. I’ve placed it just before The Angels Take Manhattan, as River is worried in that story about showing her insecurities. Also, we know that she’s only just visited Manhattan in Series 12 of The Diary of River Song, leading into The Husbands of River Song.
He came back a few years ago for Big Finish! He's done 12 box sets and an episode for the 60th anniversary series 'Once and Future'. Lots of great stories to check out.
@raymond8920 probably those who haven't really heard much about Big Finish, they don't exactly make the news like the show but I do wonder how if they follow the show and all the social media pages etc that they miss out on the information.
I finally managed to listen to the "Archipelago" episode, in short: A wonderful masterpiece! I've been a fan since 2005 but this episode is my number one. Thank you very much for the recommendation!💕
Eccleston or McGann both would've been better than Hurt. I hate the idea that the BBC or Moffat thought they needed to bring in a "name" and then settled for John Hurt. He's not an unknown, but he wasn't exactly making waves in British TV or film circa 2013. I get why they couldn't get 9 back, but I still don't understand why we couldn't have had 8 on screen again. He is wonderful in the much-maligned TV movie, and NuWho would benefit from digging deeper into its rich history beyond just retreading 10 again and again and again and again and again...
@@batman2021 They didn't bring in 8 because Moffat couldn't see 8 fighting in the Time War. And frankly, I agree with that assertion. So yeah, narratively speaking a new Doctor had to be created for the Time War era... plus this also explains why Eccleston seemed to be immediately post-regeneration in "Rose" since he does remark about his ears while looking in a mirror saying "It could have been worse."
4 місяці тому+2
@@batman2021 8 would not have worked as it would've been massively out of character. 9 would not have worked either as it would make no sense from a continuity stand-point. ROSE transcript: (The Doctor sees his reflection in a mirror, and behaves as if he's just regenerated and is just seeing himself for the first time.) DOCTOR: Ah, could've been worse. Look at the ears. Also, Eccleston said that when he read the script for the 50th anniversary, he felt that it was just him, Tennant & Smith riffing off the fact that they were The Doctor. He didn't feel the narrative was strong enough for his Doctor, mostly because when the 50th was being celebrated, he took a lot of abuse from the press. Because of that, he didn't want to come back & he thought John Hurt's War Doctor added to the canon in a way that Chris' Ninth Doctor would not. Also, he's not a fan of Multi-Doctor stories. Think about that. ua-cam.com/video/rlZWOZqfx7c/v-deo.htmlsi=Fu5fWUzIFF_aH-lr
River has met most Doctors pre 10, they usually get their memories wiped after the encounter. She has also met 10 several times in Big Finish, post library for 10 and pre library for River, so the comment about 10 being the youngest she's seen him still makes sense as it could be referring to that specific incarnation.
Moffat rewrote the idea that 10 was the earliest Doctor she'd met in her SECOND appearance. She talks about having "photos of all of his faces" and how they "never show up in the right order" in the Time of Angels. The idea that Ten was "the youngest [she'd] ever seen him" lasted for a single story before Moffat decided it's more fun to include Classic Who. He never explained how that works, but Big Finish did.
Honestly I appreciate this whole mess of time travel. River has no right to throw a tantrim, almost feeling entitled due to time travel and genuinely baffled that the person she teases and messes with would, possibly, not take it well. She, of all people short of Clara, knows how every version is. The Doctor lies is a rule that only applies to certain versions. Usually. That said, the Ninth is casually disregarding time out of nothing but his own rage and distaste. He's being a massive jerk about it. But he kind of has the right to be. The relationship between River and The Doctor does work and isn’t usually horribly toxic (even if I don't like it), but it does take ages to slowly work its way up to that night in Delirium. I haven't heard this audio drama, but I like to think that once she gets over it River gets some sense knocked into her and results in her future self's greater maturity and understanding of the Doctor.
I love how this clip perfectly sums up how toxic River Song’s relationship with the Doctor is. That’s why she was never his soulmate. The Doctor only ever loved two women: Sarah Jane & Rose I’m also not surprised that Nine read River’s diary. Ten and Eleven wouldn’t, but Nine would because he’s still scarred by his actions in the Time War. He could never be with someone he didn’t trust or someone who knew more about his future than he did. That’s why Nine fell in love with Rose. They were equals in every way.
That retcon is disgusting, go ask Tom baker about his relationship with Sarah Jane. RTD made the doctor a groomer, he was a sexual before that and certainly never displayed romantic feelings towards any of his companions
I disagree. I think Four displayed romantic feelings for Sarah Jane several times while they traveled together. Tom Baker was also in love with Elisabeth Sladen (despite her already being married), which clearly shows in their onscreen chemistry.
@@ShiningFriendship87 "It was inconceivable during our time. We didn't think like that. I played him entirely asexual ... I never did handle the girls. Or if I did handle the girls, I always did it clumsily, because I reasoned that the Doctor wouldn't know about that" Tom Baker
“The thing is, of course, when you’re working with people, you get very close to them-in a very overheated way and you’re sharing the same things. And, of course, the first person I fell in love with was Elisabeth, you see. But, of course, Elisabeth was married and I also didn’t tell her. I didn’t mention it. I thought it better not to. But, I mean, Elisabeth laughed at my jokes. Elisabeth was sympathetic because I took over from Jon, who had been a prodigious success. I mean, he was a comic. And they were like, “What’s Tom Baker gonna do?” It was Elisabeth who swayed my anxiety and laughed at my jokes and we loved old movies together. And Elisabeth was my favorite girl.” - Tom Baker, Panopticon 1993 Oh, yes, this is-I’m goading you. Not really. I should have turned to the camera and said, “I love her, really!” - Tom Baker, Ark in Space commentary
@@doctorwhorescored3151 dose river just because she says to 10 that she's never seen him that young before in the library? I know she could just be lieing but yh jw
@@Andrew-up3dreither she’s referring to the 10th Doctor specifically, since she has a few offscreen adventures with him during the specials era. Or, she simply views the pre and post-Library Doctors as different entities, since she knows that every Doctor before 10 is ‘off limits.’ She even slips up in Forest of the Dead and refers to the future Doctor as “the real you,” before correcting herself. Almost as though 10-12 are the only Doctors that feel tangible to her.
I mean, she says in her first meeting with Ten that she's met 'all his faces' - and that's only reinforced when she meets Twelve and assumes he isn't the Doctor because she 'knows' all of his faces so well Big Finish just fills that in
It's one of the messier timelines that we'll probably never be able to put in order, for Big Finish anyway, she's met some classic Doctors more than once.
Haven’t listened to this boxset but I would assume a mind wipe takes place. That’s what usually happens in these box sets where doctors before 10 interact with river. One I remember is when river spiked 7’s tea when they were chatting.
There are some rather brilliant music suites from Big Finish, 'UNIT: Brave New World' and 'The Lone Centurion' are a couple of my favourites, a mix of epic and emotional. But yes it would be amazing to hear music that matches the level of Murray Gold occasionally, or even have the man himself lend a few new tracks for them.
In the Big Finish audios where River meets earlier Doctors, either The Doc's memory is erased, the timeline is altered so they didn't actually meet, or they only meet for a moment or two and he doesn't actually find out anything about her.
Anyone worried about River and 9 meeting before 10 I'd say you should still go ahead and listen to this release since your mind will be at ease. Also, if this is a finale to the Ninth Doctor Adventures then it surely was a fantastic one!
I'll say it. I've always looked at things from The TARDIS' perspective, and I absolutely despise River Song. It's a far worse version of Time Traveler's Wife because she hides all the important information from him. The TARDIS knows what danger The Doctor is in with her around. Her last words in Idris' body was a warning.
It's funny you say that because The Time Traveller's Wife is Steven Moffat's favourite story, and he even made an adaptation of it for HBO in 2022. River feels derivative _because she is_
@@WhiteythereaperYou fail to understand what I mean. I look at it all from the TARDIS' perspective. Claiming to be a child of the TARDIS while at the same time marrying The Doctor. The console number is stored under The Missus for a reason. Who'd want to be in a polyamourous relationship with a psychopath who, upon first learning of you, shoots you down, refuses to apologize, and repeatedly ends up killing the one you love? The TARDIS would despise River Song because, like myself, it's just terrifying and tragic to see a soul like hers trapped in a genetically altered "Lala Land" of emotions. Not only that, but those "Emergency Breaks". The Moment: You know the sound the TARDIS makes? That wheezing, groaning. That sound brings hope wherever it goes. The War Doctor: Yes... yes, I like to think it does. The Moment: To anyone who hears it, Doctor. Anyone. However lost. *The TARDIS sound begins* Even you.
TARDIS despise River? How exactly TARDIS is showing it? Blocking her to enter? Not flying to her location? From what I remember TARDIS teached River the correct way to fly and was redirecting phone call to her cell when Doctor wasn't answering his phone. In the end, speaking from Steven Moffat perspective, the one who invented River Song and only him wrote for River(TV series), she was the child of the Tardis and Doctor loved her(at least 11th and 12th reincarnation)
@kyrauniversal for you this is disgusting. This are your feelings and you are totally aloud to them, but for me not. Everyone conceived in the Tardis is the child of the Tardis and that is a fact. And Tardis wasn't telling Doctor that the only water in the forest is the river, she was whispering it to Rory.
Why is it....every time I hear clips from Big Finish stories.... Alex is acting her heart out but whichever Doctor she is,acting agains is phoning it in.....?
Because Doctors 1-9 don’t have the same relationship with her as 10-12. It’s not like in Silence in the Library, where River immediately began talking about how her and the Doctor have a future together. She goes into these meetings knowing that these Doctors aren’t supposed to know her, so she generally keeps things low-key. For the most part, these Doctors just know her as a random time traveler who they happen to be teaming up with. The only exceptions were her meetings with the 4th Doctor - which happened in an alternate timeline where he had known her his entire life - and the 6th Doctor - who fell in love with River almost immediately (“a clear gaze, a firm mouth, a face beaming with a vast intelligence.” Of course he’d be smitten).
Only Nine would have looked in River's diary. He was still embittered by the Time War.
Yea I think 9 is the only one besides War maybe who would find the whole thing about them ludicrous enough to sneak a peak at the Diary.
All of them might wonder, but every other still knows how to trust. 9 doesn't trust anymore, especially a 9 before Rose.
"Oh, you want to play the war widow? Knock yourself out! Maybe this is hell right now; you and me, trapped in a room, no way out!"
God, that's so brutal.
It's a very clever idea to have him be damaged so all the usual cheekiness with river is kind of acidic to him. He's a fragile guy
Or, a reasonable man who hates toxicity. The number 1 thing in a relationship is honesty.
Yes he is a fragile guy and river healed him i love them for thatc🥰
@@kyrauniversal no he loved their relationship in the end dearly and was so sad he was going to lose it lol
@@gkcn9688 It's not just the blood on his hands. #THEMISSUS was a title given to one specific person. Someone who always saved him. The housewife that IS the house. The TARDIS.
@@kyrauniversal river is the one who marries tje doctor and she is tje cjild of the tardis . They are a big family and they accepts it that way. Cheer ip it's a ship
I love this idea that with different faces, the Doctor can love or dislike the same person.
9 scarred by the time war needs something stable and solid to hold onto, so he picks Rose - an ordinary woman.
By the time 11 comes around, the reason he picks his companions is because there's a mystery and he's interested. Of course 11 would be into River, she's the biggest mystery in his life. It's also because the time war doesn't hurt as much so he's more open to love and someone who thinks he is a good person.
If you're filled with self-hatred, someone saying you are a good person or that they love you can be very scary.
This feels more in line with the 9 we know than what we've seen so far through all the other big finish stories. Also Rose must've been something really special if she was the only one to get the Doctor to love again.
I'm going to add to my headcanon that it was 9's encounters with River and the events of this story in particular that stuck with him in his subconscious and shaped him into the Doctor we saw on screen.
@@doctorwhorescored3151for me it goes: Encounter with River -> Exhausted Supplies -> Rose
he admires what river and he will have in the end 9 and river even grew old together. so that is why he became normal again . So river 's really speacial to bring him to life again
@@gkcn9688WHAT!? Does no one know how trusting relationships have to be to work out?
@@kyrauniversal appearently doctor and river do and they did .
Yknow, before I listened to this clip, if you'd told me the Doctor looked in the diary I'd be shocked, but if you told me it was Nine? It makes perfect sense. I think he really is the only one that would.
The reason Nine became so besotted with Rose was because she reminded him so much of himself - they were 'equals' that were constantly pushing the other to do better or be better - it's not surprising that he'd think the relationship with River is messed up and, as a refugee hurtling across space with his arms full of trauma, would be infuriated that so many other versions of himself would be totally alright with the status quo that is their relationship.
Especially given that he'd also likely read about her encounters with *other* versions across his past - since she's met other past Doctors before him - and erased all their memories.
*He* can't have anything with River - *He* can't be who she needs him to be - hell, not even 12 will be *exactly* who she needs him to be... she'll still die in the library. Their time will still end.
It's fucked up - it's no surprise he'd lash out at her. Try to push her away...
If, for no other reason, than her own good.
THANK YOU! Even the TARDIS is probably terrified of her.
@kyrauniversal yeah, and i would even argue, even the master wouldn't dare bring up doctor and river's relationship for the old times sake if they ever find out about the full details, well atleast missy wouldn't
@@junny186River has met many versions of The Master on audio including the War Master who looked her up and knows about her “killing” him on Lake Silencio! However in any encounter with The Doctor on audio he never mentions River to The Doctor as far as I’m aware! The Master always seems to avoid spoilers like that!
@matthewhegarty2873 intentional or not, he is surprisingly good at keeping himself out from doctor's marriage life
@@junny186 indeed he is! That’s always surprised me! He doesn’t mind going after his or her companions though! I guess River is a tougher egg to crack
Wow they finally pointed out how toxic River and The Doctors relationship is
It’s not the first time. ‘The Lady in the Lake’ touched on it a little where River bemoans the fact that the Doctor is the only close relationship in her life, even though he’s not a reliable presence since she never knows how well he’ll know her when they meet. And it’s this fact that spurns her on to try and track down her clones from Demon’s run in the hopes of finding some kind of family.
I love that it's Nine specifically. He takes no bullshit.
i mean... Moffat did state at one point that the whole "River Song" storyline is heavily inspired by the novel "The time traveler's wife"(watch the tv series if u r like me and too lazy to read)
His voice is spot on in this audio book
Out of curiosity, are you saying this in the sense that you think that's a voice actor or that Christopher sounds more like himself from the show?
@@mr.valeyard8810 more like himself I know he’s older but sometimes in the audio he sounds lighter with his voice like he’s doing the doctor slightly different
yeah he sounds brilliant here. alex, not so much. idk what it is but she doesn’t quite sound right here
@@lydiarodgers Just age, Alex is 61 years old after all.
@@lydiarodgersit’s more to do with the fact that in the story both The Doctor and River are caught in a temporal….something (I don’t understand the story myself) they’re both decaying physically, River’s decaying faster than The Doctor hence why her character sounds off! It’s by design! That’s how good her acting is!
Beautiful rescore. I totally believe this would be the Doctor who would sneak a peek at the diary out of mistrust. I love how this story goes. He softens through his time with her, while she takes him as he is instead of who he will be. And I am totally in agreement with your head cannon that this time with River isn't completely lost in Nine's emotional memory. That could be why even though Ten doesn't know her, he cries when she dies, as if hearing her say his name awakens something in him.
I think what River fails to understand is that the ninth Doctor in his words is brutality honest and is a big contrast to his 11 counterpart.
If Nine and Eleven ever met and have the discussion about the life of River Song, neither would see eye to eye on how the situation would be handled.
In the end I think nine would dislike the 11th because of his personality and the secrets that he keeps from others.
Exactly. He's most likely to appreciate the 6th incarnation, because at least he's honest.
11 was basically a pushover let River walk all over him at times honestly 9 is right it’s not a marriage
@@kyrauniversal Yes, oddly enough 9 and 6 would be the most alike and would be unstoppable together, yet their individual dress choices would be a negative for the other LOL
@@stonebaxter Until 6 simply says, "Well, where did the TARDIS place the wardrobe for you? Mine was next to the console room."
@@stonebaxter ironic since I recall in an interview Colin Baker said that his original idea for his Doctor's costume was similar to what Eccleston got.
This is the best River story ever IMO. I loved all 3 stories on the set, but especially this one, it's a true classic.
This kind of highlights why the Doctor and River are one of my favourite relationships in fiction. Not in an "OTP coule goals" way, but in a "these two are a fascinating complicated mess" way.
Oh, this is heartbreaking. Alex performed with every fiber of her soul.
damn. I will miss Eccleston in Big Finish. What a great series, and this story as the last episode (for a while, I hope) is just chef's kiss. I won't spoiled it, but let's say it's one of the most important story in defining The Doctor and River's relationship.
@KoobanHooves1Eccleston said that this isn’t quite goodbye, more of an ‘au revoir.’ So he’ll be back one day.
@KoobanHooves1 considering that next year will be the 20th anniversary of series 1, and that Eccleston said at a recent convention that he’s open to the idea of a reunion, I’m hoping the next boxset will feature Rose.
Damn.
I always thought, especially after «11th Doctors, 11th stories» that Ninth Doctor met Rose freshly after regeneration, get refuse from her, and traveled alone for a hundred years until character from his story give him advice to go back to Rose.
And I suppose, now this story isn't working? Now Ninth first traveled for one hundred years and then met Rose?
The first doctor to actually say that there relationship isn't love
Amazing performances
The 9th Doctor spitting on everything that makes the River Song/Doctor ship work. Why do I love this?
Are you one of the River Song haters, lol?
@@IanBresett-McCormick She has pros and cons.
@@maxcardunMostly Cons. She's worse than a literal con artist that our Niner here met.
@@kyrauniversal 9 fell for in the end just as 9ther doctors plus to me she is the best caharacter ever
@@kyrauniversal I'd actually put more stock into River Song than The one who calls himself Jack Harkness.
I don't know which part of the timeline this part of River's story is and I haven't listened to the full story to know how it ended but from listening to this alone, I'd like to believe 9 was the last Doctor River met before she met 12, which would make sense why she thought the Doctor never loved her...
We know that this takes place after The Time of Angels / Flesh and Stone, as the Doctor reads River’s account of it back to her. I’ve placed it just before The Angels Take Manhattan, as River is worried in that story about showing her insecurities. Also, we know that she’s only just visited Manhattan in Series 12 of The Diary of River Song, leading into The Husbands of River Song.
I'm glad at least 9 could see their toxic marriage for what it was. I love them though.
God, the chemistry!
NO WAY 9 SAID SPOILERS AS A CLAP BACK GOD DAMN
CHRIS CAME BACK?! CHRIS IS BACK AS THE DOCTOR?! OH MY GOD!!!
He came back a few years ago for Big Finish! He's done 12 box sets and an episode for the 60th anniversary series 'Once and Future'. Lots of great stories to check out.
It blows my mind how late people are to finding this out haha
@raymond8920 probably those who haven't really heard much about Big Finish, they don't exactly make the news like the show but I do wonder how if they follow the show and all the social media pages etc that they miss out on the information.
I finally managed to listen to the "Archipelago" episode, in short: A wonderful masterpiece!
I've been a fan since 2005 but this episode is my number one.
Thank you very much for the recommendation!💕
Definitely need to download this story
oh their dynamic is beautiful. such a kismesis... love it
Is this a portmanteau of kiss and nemesis? Because surely that should be nemekiss
@@SonofSethoitaeoh sweet summer child
You have convinced me
Chris, No hate on Hurt who was an amazing War Doctor, Would have been perfect for the 50th Time war.
Moffat agrees, Hurt only happened because Moffat couldn't quite convince Eccleston to return.
Eccleston or McGann both would've been better than Hurt. I hate the idea that the BBC or Moffat thought they needed to bring in a "name" and then settled for John Hurt. He's not an unknown, but he wasn't exactly making waves in British TV or film circa 2013.
I get why they couldn't get 9 back, but I still don't understand why we couldn't have had 8 on screen again. He is wonderful in the much-maligned TV movie, and NuWho would benefit from digging deeper into its rich history beyond just retreading 10 again and again and again and again and again...
@@batman2021 They didn't bring in 8 because Moffat couldn't see 8 fighting in the Time War. And frankly, I agree with that assertion. So yeah, narratively speaking a new Doctor had to be created for the Time War era... plus this also explains why Eccleston seemed to be immediately post-regeneration in "Rose" since he does remark about his ears while looking in a mirror saying "It could have been worse."
@@batman2021 8 would not have worked as it would've been massively out of character.
9 would not have worked either as it would make no sense from a continuity stand-point.
ROSE transcript:
(The Doctor sees his reflection in a mirror, and behaves as if he's just regenerated and is just seeing himself for the first time.)
DOCTOR: Ah, could've been worse. Look at the ears.
Also, Eccleston said that when he read the script for the 50th anniversary, he felt that it was just him, Tennant & Smith riffing off the fact that they were The Doctor. He didn't feel the narrative was strong enough for his Doctor, mostly because when the 50th was being celebrated, he took a lot of abuse from the press.
Because of that, he didn't want to come back & he thought John Hurt's War Doctor added to the canon in a way that Chris' Ninth Doctor would not.
Also, he's not a fan of Multi-Doctor stories.
Think about that.
ua-cam.com/video/rlZWOZqfx7c/v-deo.htmlsi=Fu5fWUzIFF_aH-lr
I don't understand how river met 9 if she said 10 was the youngest she had seen the doctor
River has met most Doctors pre 10, they usually get their memories wiped after the encounter. She has also met 10 several times in Big Finish, post library for 10 and pre library for River, so the comment about 10 being the youngest she's seen him still makes sense as it could be referring to that specific incarnation.
Moffat rewrote the idea that 10 was the earliest Doctor she'd met in her SECOND appearance. She talks about having "photos of all of his faces" and how they "never show up in the right order" in the Time of Angels. The idea that Ten was "the youngest [she'd] ever seen him" lasted for a single story before Moffat decided it's more fun to include Classic Who. He never explained how that works, but Big Finish did.
Honestly I appreciate this whole mess of time travel.
River has no right to throw a tantrim, almost feeling entitled due to time travel and genuinely baffled that the person she teases and messes with would, possibly, not take it well. She, of all people short of Clara, knows how every version is. The Doctor lies is a rule that only applies to certain versions. Usually.
That said, the Ninth is casually disregarding time out of nothing but his own rage and distaste. He's being a massive jerk about it. But he kind of has the right to be.
The relationship between River and The Doctor does work and isn’t usually horribly toxic (even if I don't like it), but it does take ages to slowly work its way up to that night in Delirium.
I haven't heard this audio drama, but I like to think that once she gets over it River gets some sense knocked into her and results in her future self's greater maturity and understanding of the Doctor.
I love how this clip perfectly sums up how toxic River Song’s relationship with the Doctor is. That’s why she was never his soulmate. The Doctor only ever loved two women: Sarah Jane & Rose
I’m also not surprised that Nine read River’s diary. Ten and Eleven wouldn’t, but Nine would because he’s still scarred by his actions in the Time War. He could never be with someone he didn’t trust or someone who knew more about his future than he did. That’s why Nine fell in love with Rose. They were equals in every way.
River Song wasn’t his soulmate? That hurts to think about
That retcon is disgusting, go ask Tom baker about his relationship with Sarah Jane. RTD made the doctor a groomer, he was a sexual before that and certainly never displayed romantic feelings towards any of his companions
I disagree. I think Four displayed romantic feelings for Sarah Jane several times while they traveled together. Tom Baker was also in love with Elisabeth Sladen (despite her already being married), which clearly shows in their onscreen chemistry.
@@ShiningFriendship87 "It was inconceivable during our time. We didn't think like that. I played him entirely asexual ... I never did handle the girls. Or if I did handle the girls, I always did it clumsily, because I reasoned that the Doctor wouldn't know about that" Tom Baker
“The thing is, of course, when you’re working with people, you get very close to them-in a very overheated way and you’re sharing the same things. And, of course, the first person I fell in love with was Elisabeth, you see. But, of course, Elisabeth was married and I also didn’t tell her. I didn’t mention it. I thought it better not to. But, I mean, Elisabeth laughed at my jokes. Elisabeth was sympathetic because I took over from Jon, who had been a prodigious success. I mean, he was a comic. And they were like, “What’s Tom Baker gonna do?” It was Elisabeth who swayed my anxiety and laughed at my jokes and we loved old movies together. And Elisabeth was my favorite girl.” - Tom Baker, Panopticon 1993
Oh, yes, this is-I’m goading you. Not really. I should have turned to the camera and said, “I love her, really!” - Tom Baker, Ark in Space commentary
I want a skit of Nine trying to work out how the plot of series six works!
Wish he’d returned for the 50th
No. It wouldn't work.
I think any story with river and any doctor before 10 is just a plot hole
The past Doctors usually get their memory wiped after meeting her.
@@doctorwhorescored3151 dose river just because she says to 10 that she's never seen him that young before in the library? I know she could just be lieing but yh jw
@@Andrew-up3dreither she’s referring to the 10th Doctor specifically, since she has a few offscreen adventures with him during the specials era. Or, she simply views the pre and post-Library Doctors as different entities, since she knows that every Doctor before 10 is ‘off limits.’ She even slips up in Forest of the Dead and refers to the future Doctor as “the real you,” before correcting herself. Almost as though 10-12 are the only Doctors that feel tangible to her.
I mean, she says in her first meeting with Ten that she's met 'all his faces' - and that's only reinforced when she meets Twelve and assumes he isn't the Doctor because she 'knows' all of his faces so well
Big Finish just fills that in
@@2Scribblethe 12th was the last regeneration she saw
I miss 9th
Am I an idiot for not understanding their timelines work as we get more content of them?
It's one of the messier timelines that we'll probably never be able to put in order, for Big Finish anyway, she's met some classic Doctors more than once.
its timey wimey :) or maybe its evolved into The Good Place's Jeremy Bearimy ;)
Can someone explain to me how 9 has met River Song, but 10 doesn't recognise her?
Haven’t listened to this boxset but I would assume a mind wipe takes place. That’s what usually happens in these box sets where doctors before 10 interact with river. One I remember is when river spiked 7’s tea when they were chatting.
Damn imagine if Big Finish actually had good music like this - the difference here is night and day
There are some rather brilliant music suites from Big Finish, 'UNIT: Brave New World' and 'The Lone Centurion' are a couple of my favourites, a mix of epic and emotional. But yes it would be amazing to hear music that matches the level of Murray Gold occasionally, or even have the man himself lend a few new tracks for them.
This is memory get erase ???
Spoilers! But yes. Listen to the full story to find out how. It's beautiful and tragic.
In the Big Finish audios where River meets earlier Doctors, either The Doc's memory is erased, the timeline is altered so they didn't actually meet, or they only meet for a moment or two and he doesn't actually find out anything about her.
Oh stop being so melodramatic River. And rule one is BS. Everybody lies
River and Jack Harkness need to team-up
They already met up in another audio a few years ago. It was a story called ‘R&J,’ from The Lives of Captain Jack: Vol 3.
Anyone worried about River and 9 meeting before 10 I'd say you should still go ahead and listen to this release since your mind will be at ease.
Also, if this is a finale to the Ninth Doctor Adventures then it surely was a fantastic one!
But wait, is it canon now that the doctor read the diary? He has to forget it again Right?
@@lordpistonia Spoilers
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They both forget meeting each other.
@@doctorwhorescored3151 ah, classic as always haha
This cannot be cannon
We don't use the C word in Doctor Who, 'tis not a thing.
What's the name of this audio book
The story is called ‘Archipelago,’ and it’s from the box set ‘Star-Crossed.’
I'll say it. I've always looked at things from The TARDIS' perspective, and I absolutely despise River Song. It's a far worse version of Time Traveler's Wife because she hides all the important information from him. The TARDIS knows what danger The Doctor is in with her around. Her last words in Idris' body was a warning.
It's funny you say that because The Time Traveller's Wife is Steven Moffat's favourite story, and he even made an adaptation of it for HBO in 2022. River feels derivative _because she is_
@@WhiteythereaperYou fail to understand what I mean. I look at it all from the TARDIS' perspective. Claiming to be a child of the TARDIS while at the same time marrying The Doctor. The console number is stored under The Missus for a reason. Who'd want to be in a polyamourous relationship with a psychopath who, upon first learning of you, shoots you down, refuses to apologize, and repeatedly ends up killing the one you love? The TARDIS would despise River Song because, like myself, it's just terrifying and tragic to see a soul like hers trapped in a genetically altered "Lala Land" of emotions. Not only that, but those "Emergency Breaks".
The Moment: You know the sound the TARDIS makes? That wheezing, groaning. That sound brings hope wherever it goes.
The War Doctor: Yes... yes, I like to think it does.
The Moment: To anyone who hears it, Doctor. Anyone. However lost. *The TARDIS sound begins* Even you.
TARDIS despise River? How exactly TARDIS is showing it? Blocking her to enter? Not flying to her location?
From what I remember TARDIS teached River the correct way to fly and was redirecting phone call to her cell when Doctor wasn't answering his phone.
In the end, speaking from Steven Moffat perspective, the one who invented River Song and only him wrote for River(TV series), she was the child of the Tardis and Doctor loved her(at least 11th and 12th reincarnation)
@@documentinglife8547 The child of the TARDIS. The Doctor's Wife. Do you not see the disgusting nature of that?
@kyrauniversal for you this is disgusting. This are your feelings and you are totally aloud to them, but for me not.
Everyone conceived in the Tardis is the child of the Tardis and that is a fact. And Tardis wasn't telling Doctor that the only water in the forest is the river, she was whispering it to Rory.
Why is it....every time I hear clips from Big Finish stories.... Alex is acting her heart out but whichever Doctor she is,acting agains is phoning it in.....?
Imo this is the closest Chris has sounded to his performance on screen in his entire Big Finish run.
Because Doctors 1-9 don’t have the same relationship with her as 10-12. It’s not like in Silence in the Library, where River immediately began talking about how her and the Doctor have a future together. She goes into these meetings knowing that these Doctors aren’t supposed to know her, so she generally keeps things low-key. For the most part, these Doctors just know her as a random time traveler who they happen to be teaming up with.
The only exceptions were her meetings with the 4th Doctor - which happened in an alternate timeline where he had known her his entire life - and the 6th Doctor - who fell in love with River almost immediately (“a clear gaze, a firm mouth, a face beaming with a vast intelligence.” Of course he’d be smitten).