Ade has been beavering away on the electronics of this, and there are some updates in-progress as I write. I'll provided a more detailed update soon. Thanks for watching, James
Not being a Famous UA-camr (tm) - I unfortunately have a full time day job, which has recently been excessively (in my humble opinion!) demanding of my time... but rest assured, progress, albeit glacial, is taking place!
Hello James, my wife and I really enjoy your videos and especially appreciate your pioneering approach to creating your models. We found this video very interesting indeed. I am a retired mechanical design engineer, one of the very important features of any turntable design is the alignment of the bridge with the feeder tracks, repeatability needs to be very accurate indeed. I do not recall you mentioning the angular tolerance of the stepper motor and also the importance of ensuring that the bridge is truly at 90 degrees to the rotating axis. We look forward to watching the next installment to see how you have resolved these issues. Take care, keep up the good work.
I'll let James talk about the mechanical stuff, as he's much better at it than I am... The drive unit has a resolution of 6400 steps per rotation in direct drive, i.e. it's accurate to 0.056°. With a 5:1 belt drive, it's around 0.01° So far, we think it's extremely repeatable, so long as the connection between the stepper and the bridge has no play. Further testing - particularly geared - is in progress. Alignment of the rails on the bridge would be critical with the current implementation - however, I'm going to add a correction setting, so if the head & tail aren't perfectly centred, a "go to tail" command will still line up properly. Obviously, if head & tail aren't perfectly aligned, then there's nothing that can be done to allow a loco to drive straight over the turntable.... But that would be for the builder to resolve!
Please put me down for one. I have a Kitwood Hill Models On30 turntable I have been wanting to "automate" and this is just what I am looking for! Well done both of you!
I couldn't agree more. The best thing about having this UA-cam channel has been making connections with really creative people. Folks who I would otherwise never meet. Thanks for watching, James
I like the previous suggestions of a kit. Going further, perhaps various sub assemblies could be offered for those who want a custom configuration. If this never comes to pass, maybe you might consider selling schematics and a parts list as a pdf . This project is too brilliant to wind up in the dust bin.
Don't worry it wont end up in the dust bin. We're discussing how best it might be made available, and the sub-assembly/kit form approach might well be the most appropriate. There are a few finishing touches and features to add though before it's ready for release.
Hats off to Ade & you. I looked into turntables a while back & concluded I don't have the space. But the main thing that put me off was the hideous noise of the solutions provided by some other mainstream manufacturers. Even at this stage what you have is far superior.
Thank you Chris. Ade is a genius. This is such a fun device to play with. I've barely scratched the surface of its potential in this video. Thanks for watching, James
So... I'm still not truly happy with the stepper noise (they ARE noisy little things, aren't they?); but I happened to watch a video on how to program an ADM turntable (believe it or not - this unit was developed without me having ANY knowledge whatsoever about the ADM turntables!) - good grief, what a racket! I noticed that when James mounted his into the direct drive "full size" mockup, it got a bit louder. I think some rubber isolation mounts will help with that. As to not having space... you could have a little wagon turntable somewhere, surely? 😂 They're only a little bigger than a goods wagon; there's absolutely no reason why the turntable receiver couldn't drive a smaller stepper motor, say a NEMA-11, which is only 28mm square; or even a NEMA-8 at 20mm sq.
I have also been working on turntable control but this project is on a whole different level and is ground breaking. Please keep us informed as to how this might be made available. Brilliant and hats off! Another suggestion might also be touchscreen control. This would negate buttons as well!
We have discussed it, and it would be doable, possibly in the future, maybe even with a smartphone. For now I think we quite like the old-school tactile nature of the buttons. But I'll pass the thought on to Ade. Thank you for your kind feedback, James
Hi James. Thanks for sharing. I have been using an ADM turntable for several years with complete reliability. It basically uses the same system of stepper motor with belt drive. However, it lacks the wi-fi ability and the screen, the control panel being linked by an umbilical cord. I am satisfied with the ADM system, but I can see the advantages of this new system, and I'm sure it would be a good seller if the price can be kept reasonable. The ADM system is rather expensive but does come fully assembled. Pete
Hello there . . . This is a superb solution to finding a realistic turntable drive option, congratulations on all your work done so far !! - hopefully you will now be able to further develop it into saleable product, manufactured in the UK in order to avoid too many of the frustrations associated with far east productions, you deserve to succeed with this product, and ultimately get the rewards that are due to you . . . Thank you for drawing attention to this !! . . . can’t wait to see it progress onwards . . . rest assured I’m in the queue to purchase when your ready to sell !!
Thank you kindly 😊 Truth be told, I've not made a lot of progress on it recently (life & work getting in the way), but I've got the basic colour screen going - the circuit board now needs revising to accommodate it; and there's all the usual bugs & glitches to work out. I'm also working out a suitable mounting system for a Peco N-gauge turntable (which will be a lot easier to do than the Peco/Dapol OO gauge kit, which is horrid!), I'd like to make a video at some point showing it on a test layout. But there's still some work to do yet. Hopefully, James will have some cool stuff to show on the actual turntable mechanism soon!
I've designed a turntable for small SM32 locos that's fully 3D printed and currently has a 28BYJ48 stepper motor. It spins on a ball bearing. I haven't tested it yet as I've still got to write the software, but if the motor isn't up to the job it would be easy to adapt for a NEMA17 motor. It doesn't need to be as sophisticated as this one, so I've just made provision in the base for an Arduino Nano, the motor driver and a 433MHz receiver. The first test print spins nicely by hand. Fortunately I don't need power to the track as the locos will be radio controlled! Watching this video has inspired me to get on and finish it!
That's fab, I'm pleased that this video has provided you with some inspiration. Do let me know how you get on. Rumour has it that there might be a cheeky SM32 project on the channel in the next few months, so stay tuned as it might be of interest to you.
@@BexhillWest My trouble is that I have too many different projects on the go, in multiple scales and gauges, and I keep switching between them. But I'm currently 3D printing parts for a SM32 loco, so the turntable isn't far from my mind!!
What an excellent bit of kit. Ingenious. Particularly, as only a couple of days ago, I was watching another UA-cam channel where a chap had built a turntable out of cardboard, which was operated by two pieces of string! That one had a limitation in that it couldn't do a full 360 degree turn (it didn't need to for that person's purposes). But that brings me to my one suggestion for an enhancement to Ade's and your control box: could it reverse the polarity/phase of the track on the bridge if it knew it was doing a full 360, to prevent short circuits? When you mentioned that it could control two turntables at the same time, it reminded me of a fantasy project of mine to model the roundhouse at Hamburg Altona in Germany, with its double, overlapping turntables.
I've been thinking about the polarity issue... and actually I think it should be fairly straightforward: Since each road should have a known polarity (because that's wired in), it should be possible to set the polarity when configuring the road in the controller. I guess the only wrinkle to that would be if one of the tracks was reversible (like a point frog is) - but the initial version should be able to handle wired polarity at least. The real trick will be to ensure that DCC locos don't see any interruption in power if a polarity switch is needed; I'll figure that one out though. BTW, for a full 360 degree, no polarity switch is needed! Also, the turntable & running rails should never be in electrical contact with each other (except when the loco is crossing the gap, of course), which will greatly simplify things from some of the insane schemes I had running around in my head!
Hi James. Having recently returned to the hobby I purchased an HO Rivarossi BiG Boy and was wondering about a turntable. This brilliant kit would do that job as well as my British engines with the required length adjustments. Well done Ade and James.
Hi James. What a great piece of kit!!! Love the wire free app for the control box! I wondered what it’s retail cost would be? Maybe a bit early to get an exact price, but a ballpark figure would be good? Thanks for showing this! Keep up the great work! Keith
Hi Keith, Nice to hear from you. It's all very early days, and it hasn't been discussed. For me, it's genius is the lack of mechanical complexity which helps keep the cost down and reliability up. I'll post an update if there is any discussion or development on this. All the best, James
It's not possible to put a price on it yet - the BOM isn't finalised, and whilst I have an approximate cost for the electronics, that obviously doesn't cover any of the mechanical stuff. Furthermore, if there's strong enough interest, then the unit cost can be made lower by bulk-buying components. For some of the higher cost items, that might mean actual negotiations with the manufacturer... What I will say is - I expect it to be significantly cheaper to buy than a 2nd hand ADM turntable: I can't promise an order of magnitude, but that's a nice target to aim for, I think.
I would definitely be interested in one for my layout. Particularly if it was a kit of parts that I could assemble/ upload firmware/software. Many thanks for sharing!
As I'm in the process of building my own turntable, hats off to you. Awesome build. I'd be very interested in the electronics/software side, as I'm planning on using an Arduino.
We're using ESP32s - they're like an Arduino on an unholy combination of steroids and speed, with WiFi... You can write and upload code to them using the Arduino IDE, so it's a very easy learning curve. I can recommend the AZ-Delivery Devkits, there are some other brands too which are sometimes cheaper. One thing to watch, though, they're not 5v tolerant, so you'll either need a bag full of level converters - or just run everything at 3.3v. They do have 1 5v in/out pin, which you can either use to supply power; or you can draw a small amount of power from it. We use a 12v-to-5v converter to power the MCU and the screen; all the other components are fed from the 3.3v output of the MCU board.
Very interesting indeed James. I just hope I'll be able to get my grubby little mitts on one. LOL. I do like the option of being able to expand the system. Excellent work there.
That's an interesting way to go about it. I've built a few controllers over the years and found that you need to keep the controls as simple as possible. My latest controler is very simple. It has two duel 7-segment displays. Left shows the track you're on and the right shows the track you want to go to. A 5-button round switch plate. Up and down for choosing the track you want. Left and right for jogging the turntable just in case there is a misalignment. And the center button is to activate. And lastly, there is a 180-turn button with an indicator. (Six buttons total) So to use it, you just press the up or down buttons to select the track number you want. Push the 180 turn if you want the loco turned, then push select. (If you only want the loco turned then just push 180-turn and select) The unit will automatically turn the table left or right whichever is the shortest route. When you turn it off, it remembers the last position so when turned on again, there is no need to recalibrate. It also has the ability to run sound files that match perfectly to the movements of the turn table. The proto-type has been built for a fellow club member. I've got two more to build. One for myself once I get my turntable installed, and one for the club. I also have plans to incorporate it into DCC which would allow you to control the turntable from your throttle. Lastly, I have plans to design an Auto-alignment system so I can eliminate the jog buttons. (Even though you seldom need to use them) But these are projects for another day.
You make some good points (not a railway pun, honest!). KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) is a sound design philosophy. Hopefully, with some of the recent changes (which aren't yet public, on account I've not got them to James yet!) will improve the usability. Ultimately, though, this isn't much more difficult to use than the one you describe: Press a "road" button (0-9 currently), press "clockwise" or "anti-clockwise", and away it goes. Most of the complexity is in the setup; but I've tried to make that as simple as possible (aim the turntable, press a road number, press another button to save it). It's actually fascinating to hear about other people's projects: e.g. I'd never even considered the idea of playing synchronised sound files... Would love to see a video or blog about your turntable, if you're willing to share. (any updates to this one will appear on this channel)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I'm going to bookmark this video and conversation. Right now, I'm extremely busy, but I have no problem to get back to you in the future. I will then send you some pics etc.
@@theelectricmonk3909 Here is a link to the video which I plan to extract the sound files from. I would need to create at least three sound files. Ramping up, Ramping down and continuous. The continuous file length would need to vary depending on how far the turntable is turning. ua-cam.com/video/6ClqItEb2to/v-deo.html I think if not used for commercial purposes, it would not be illegal to use the sound from this video.
A kit would be fantastic, even just a wiring diagram and detailed part list would be great as I have my own FDM and resin printers to make the case. Here in the USA there is little available for 2 rail Midland Rail in O Gauge but using a kit I purchased before I left the UK some 25 years ago I could make a realistic turntable. I would obviously be prepared to pay for the information. I have sent you an e-mail via your website. Many thanks for a great video👍
Thank you Jonathan, I'm pleased you enjoy the videos. It's nice to share someone else's talents on here. Hopefully some good food for thought in today's video.
Ingenious and a lot quieter than most. It might be an idea to have separate versions available ie a basic model and one "all singing and dancing"? Some of the features may never be used on many layouts; whether this is possible by separate parts being available or not would obviously be dependent on whether that is possible.
In truth, there's no real benefit to splitting it into "basic" vs. "all singing/dancing" at the moment: The only major expense is in the hardware, and that's the same no matter what... I think I can speak for James as well in saying that we have no intention of "profiteering" from this device, and since the only difference between a basic & advanced version would be which features got knobbled, it's not a route I''d be comfortable following. That said... when we start looking at some more advanced features (e.g. sector turntables, interlocked turntables (I have my eye on that crazy one that used to be in Hamburg-Altona), traversers, and so on - then there may be scope to have different versions.
@@theelectricmonk3909 Thanks. I must admit I hadn't considered that the hardware would be the most expensive part so my comment was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Probably based on what commercial producers tend to do!!! I look forward to seeing future progress.
@@jeanmcginlay2363 Well, in all honesty, if this was paying my mortgage, I might look at it a little differently! But it's not - it started as a random "help someone out on the internet" bit of fun... but given how much demand there seems to be, it's turning into a side hustle :D IMHO if it pays for the development costs (I have sunk a few hundred quid into PCBs, components, etc.), and buys me a few beers every year, I'll be a happy bunny.
Very interested in the turntable, I require one which can be programmed a DCC decoder, so please keep the channel updated regarding this fantastic development. Disappointing for you that the laser cutter has failed again. Chin up, sure you will solve the root cause. PS the uni strut sub assembly is a great way forward too. Great work, and very interesting episode
This was magnificent, the simplicity and wifi connectivity - brilliant. This would be great as a kit or schematic and sell the programming seperately. Definately interested. I suppose the next iteration will be DCC or a specific turntable app. Cheers from Australia.
Hi Rick; It's not finalised into a kit yet; there's still a few things to do before they'll be possible - and due to a "lost year" I've only recently made some fresh progress on the controller. There should be an update here soon!
Wow! This is beyond exceptional. My hat is off to both of you for this excellent implementation. I am quite sure it is far more sophisticated than anything the prototype ever had. There will be lots of modelers who will be pretty jealous that your turntable is far superior to anything they have currently. Two thoughts: 1) The jerkiness and noise are often a function of the stepper motors, particularly the stepper motor drivers. Are you using micro-stepping? 2) A possible enhancement would be a Wi-Fi interface to your computer so that you could program, backup, and restore settings from the computer.
Hi John, to answer your questions: 1) Yes, we're on the smallest microsteps we can do - 1/32 or 6400 steps/rev. The cogging isn't crazy, but it's noticeable at very slow speeds. Hopefully, gearing will resolve that. Keeping the steppers quiet is a constant battle - and the noise seems to vary from stepper to to stepper; I bought about a dozen in one go, and they all make different noises! 2) It's an excellent idea! There is a rudimentary interface with the PC via USB cable right now (I didn't tell James that! You can't do much with it yet), but I believe I've found a way to connect it to "your" WiFi network, as well as it's own network, which would open up a whole world of computer possibilites - including a smartphone app, website, repeater display... etc.
This is fantastic, I have been messing about for ages as I couldn't afford the mega bucks some suppliers were asking. Your efforts both of you are to be applauded and thank you so much. Could I ask how far you have both progressed this now, as I am looking for exactly one or two of these for my OO Gauge layout.
Hi there - it's been a bit of a crazy year for me, so progress isn't as advanced as I'd like... but there has been some, and hopefully there'll be an update Real Soon Now!
Thinking about it more, with two turntable controllable he's basically got the fundamentals for a goto telescope drive. Just needs to add sidereal tracking and change the programmable points to RA and DEC co-ordinates and job done 🙂
Please add me to the list of potential buyers ! Really nice and simple implementation. BTW do the turntable electronics incorporate a slow down / speed up functionality as the bridge approaches a road ?
Hi there - yes, the turntable both accelerates away from its start point, and decelerates as it approaches the target road. The rate of acceleration (and the speed it achieves between roads) is configurable using the controller.
Gearing / belt for smooth ride; yes, definitely needed, would even say for testing try a turntable length for long gauge 1 steam engines (from gauge 0 upwardly self building and looking like the one from the modeled location turntables rises alot). Locking pin mechanism; for safe fixing in position (you got the needed cable connections into the mock-up platform ready for it as it looks). "Polarisation change"-topic; see JumbleLane´s comment. Is a second contol unite useable at the same time? (With future modules, from others, between your terminus and your fiddle yard, it may happen that both turntables are more then 10m away from each other). Control useable for traverser / transfer table, too? Till next vid or earlyer if I comment again 😉
Hi - just a quick reply (I'm in housekeeping mode today - Mrs has been on holiday for a few weeks, if the house isn't spotless when she returns, I'll be for the chop!) I'd say anything larger than OO would want gearing anyway, just to keep the stepper size reasonable; this would have the side effect of eliminating any visible jitter. Locking pins - wouldn't be needed for O gauge or smaller I guess; but yeah, anything bigger and it would make sense. No reason why an output from the MCU couldn't be used (there's loads going spare) to fire a solenoid to pull the pin(s) just before the t/t moves. 2nd control unit: The answer is "it depends": If you mean, a 2nd controller to control different devices (e.g. if you had 8 turntables!); then yes. Don't ask me what the limit is, I don't know: Lots. If you mean can you have 2 controllers paired to the same turntables: Right now, no, but it's certainly possible, and it's something James & I have discussed for future development. Finally; at the moment, the software is pretty dedicated to being a turntable controller. However, it absolutely could control other devices, e.g. traversers, swing bridges, lift bridges, etc. (although I'm aware that there are almost certainly dozens of such devices already). I'd say that, anything that requires a repeatable and precise amount of motion, is a good candidate for automation via extending this system. However.... it won't be happening very soon - there's still plenty of testing & development to do before this thing is ready for it's wider debut...
hi i have just found this video here and would like to know if there's any progress on it becoming available to purchase as a kit or motor and controller kit to interoperate into a scratch built turntable ? thanks
I watched with interest but found one thing you did not mention. You showed you had track power onthe wires fed through the tube via the slip rings. When turning they would have to switch polarity like the Heljan turntable that I use. Normally there is a dead spot where the polarity change takes place. This is not a very good thing for sound fitted locos as they have to start up again and the lights turn off and turn back on. Using something like a frog juicer could be a better alternative to a dead spot. What have you got in mind in your design?
Would say with "changing the polarisation" with the "electrically witchery thing" run through DCC Reverse Loops get done, too (if you want to get more into the DCC electrical side of model railways look up NEM 680 and around) 😉
As of this moment, we've not implemented polarity switching. We are aware it needs to be done, and that there are a variety of ways to do it (especially for DC). For DCC, my thinking would be to sense when both rails are at 0v, and switch over then. That said, I don't know if switching in the middle of a DCC message would cause problems, so I could do with reading up on the specs for DCC. If I have to wait for a gap between messages, then that's fine; I just need to know that so I can code it. It also means adding an H-bridge to the receiver unit, which is going to up the cost a little... but not too much hopefully. Even a fully automatic polarity switcher can't completely eliminate the possibility of user error though - e.g. if you point the "head" of the turntable at one track, then reverse off the "tail" onto another track that's at the opposite polarity... well, you can envisage the resulting fire.
It's just software, at the end of the day, the bits & bytes within are basically free... and there's spare buttons on the keypad, so why not use them? James & I also have some ideas for adding "things that aren't turntables, but could benefit from this sort of digital control" options, e.g. a traverser, or a quadrant turntable. There's also a few exhibition layouts out there with more than one turntable - usually one scenic, and one non-scenic. I can probably think of other reasons if those aren't enough!
@@theelectricmonk3909 I'm revelling in your engineering skills, your ingenuity and your sheer why on earth not attitude. More power to your elbow sir.
It most certainly can. I'm looking into North American turntable design at the moment. Would there be a particular design you'd be interested in? All the best, James
Amazing project, thanks for sharing, one thought, rather than having a wireless control box could you design a smartphone app so that you could do away for the need of a control box completely ? just a thought...
I currently use an ADM turntable that I am really happy with. However, as ADM have ceased trading and are no longer supplying turntables, if I ever need another turntable this unit looks like it would fit the bill admirably. One thing you didn't cover is how the feed to the bridge track is handled with regard to switching polarity on the rails as the bridge turns. I don't know how the ADM does it, but it happens seamlessly as evidenced by sound fitted locos gently simmering away as the bridge rotates through 180 degrees. As the unit supplied by Ade is concerned with just turning the bridge, I'm guessing the track feed and switching of polarity would have to be engineered by the end user?
James has found some rather nifty slip-ring bearings, which would go up the shaft of the turntable & connect the wires. One idea I had (but haven't pursued beyond wondering about it) was PCB tracks on the turntable underside, and spring-loaded contacts. As yet, the turntable software doesn't have any kind of track polarity switching in it, but we've thought about it! Just need to figure out the best way to achieve it...
@@theelectricmonk3909 Thanks Ade. As you probably know ADM fits their unit to a Peco turntable, which has sprung contacts on the underside of the rails to transfer power. With regard to polarity switching, I am wondering if they use something like a Frog Juicer, as has been suggested by one of the other comments.
@@delboy1727 I'd never even heard of a Frog Juicer 🤣 What a great name... It's worth noting that whatever scheme we come up with needs to handle both DC and DCC - ideally relatively simply... Unfortunately, it's surprisingly difficult to make stuff simple!
Hi, excellent. Love the sensible speed and acceleration and deceleration. Is there a more simple version that does not use WiFi in the planning stage, after all we don't want our railway dependent on routers lol
It would be possible to produce a ‘wired’ connection between the controller and turntable but would be unnecessary. In this case the WiFi network is created between the controller and the turntable. It is independent of a router. You could put this on the moon and it would still work. Thanks for watching, James
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited BTW, when James says "the moon" - he means the model moon that everyone's got suspended over their layout.....(!) Actually, the limit is probably around 20-30 meters, but due to the way the wifi works, you could put one (say) 10 meters away, another one 10 meters further out, and another one 10 meters past that... and they'd all work with a controller 10 meters back the other way! I wish I could take credit for that, but it's a library that's available for ESP32s, I just use it.
Hi I love it I want one ,where can I buy it , how much ,would it come complete and ready to fit if you do decide to market it please keep it British it would mean so much to us railway modellers maybe speak to Pete Waterman I'm sure he would be impressed and maybe give you some help and guidance ,can't wait to buy one.
Hi I would be interested in buying a kit. What are you thinking in terms of the set up would it include a turntable well or will it be just the control box and the other parts required without the well. Only reason I am asking I have a peco well installed with a very noisy drive system lining up by eye.
Hey Derek, glad you like it :) I'm thinking it will be available with or without an actual turntable - specifically for people like yourself who already have a TT installed but would like to automate/improve its control. After a bit of a busy year doing other things, I'm back on the TT project now, there should be an update very soon!
very good just what i am looking for as i have already built the turntable with a stepper motor belt drive and sliprings whit a modified peco 55 turntable ,but i cant get my head around programming a Arduino . So yes i would be interested in buying a controller
That's N scale, right? I'd be curious, what does your drive mechanism look like? I've also got a Peco 55 here; and it looks to be a bit of a dog to motorise...
Look at the topic on a wider range -> traverser / transfer table / Schiebebühne may profit from the control, too -> How about something like watch?v=j47hV6xfIYg as "fiddle yard" for your planned layout? 😉
Could this system be used with segment turntables (i.e. the pie slice turntable) to replace point and head shunt at the end of a line station with run around track? Also segment turntable with storage depot tracks?
In theory, yes. In practice, the electronics & software assume a full 360 degree rotation is available (and required). However... that's definitely a feature that could be implemented within what we've already got - I'll add it to the wish list!
@@earlfreeman93 Ah, sort of.... I've not posted anything to it for several years, and it's mostly got old diesel engine videos & some machining bits & bobs on it... I should revive it really, especially now James has kindly sent me some new subscribers! In the meantime, I'd recommend keeping an eye on James' videos; however we end up distributing it, it'll be done from here.
It's too early to say for sure - but I anticipate we will offer the controller/receiver unit(s) assembled and ready to go; with an optional turntable kit (or possibly pre-assembled as an option). If there's enough demand, we could probably offer the controller/receiver as a kit of parts too, for a little less (since I won't have to assemble them!)
Thank you for the feedback, I'll post on here as/when/if the project gets to a point that we might be able to start to consider a sale price. All the best, James
One thing you didn't address is how would calibrate the drive system to the reduction of the belt drive. In your demonstration the turntable only moved one fifth the distance the controller thought it did due to the 5:1 reduction of the belt pulleys. Going with direct drive as you mentioned in another comment makes this moot, but does the controller allow you to program how many steps equals 360 degrees of rotation?
There is a calibration routine in the software, and it should be able to handle any reduction ratio (at least up to 10-1, maybe more; although you get into the realms of waiting hours for it to initialise!) - however, we've not fully tested it yet, and I'm thinking the software might be a bit over-aggressive in how accurate it wants to be... But it's on the list to be sorted out!
That's my bad, I should have explained the calibration. The belt drive version in the video didn't have a magnet on it to trigger the sensor and so was in effect running to the program of the direct drive version. In my excitement/ineptitude I forgot to make that clear. Rest assured the controller has some clever trickery in it's initial calibration routine which accounts for the indirect drive.
This looks superb. I will be definitely be interested in purchasing if it is capable of being controlled by automation software (such as iTrain). Would it help if I talk to the creator of iTrain and get details of what those requirements are? I would highly recommend that those requirements are considered early in the development. The rotating display is an interesting feature. Perhaps some presets could be made in the software for North, South, East and West orientations, for example.
Hi Bob - I only just realised you'd made a suggestion here (sorry!) - Stop giving me ideas! I'm now wondering if I could build in a compass, which would automatically rotate the display with the control unit!!! Hmm, or maybe a 3D display........ (no... must stop...) In all seriousness, that is a good idea, especially if the control unit is likely to be mobile. Not too hard to implement either... Consider it on the list for consideration! WRT iTrain; for sure, I'd be interested in getting in touch with him. I'm sure the interface will end up being reasonably straightforward; but as you say, the earlier it's thought about, the easier it is to implement. Thanks! 👍
It's a great thought; but the "cogging" (i.e. the jerking) is unfortunately a function of the stepper. A heavy flywheel would potentially make it worse, and if heavy enough would actually cause the stepper to lose steps; which then affects your positional accuracy. Another solution (where the flywheel WOULD work) would be to use a DC motor with an encoder, instead of a stepper. The software to accurately control it with acceleration/deceleration and so on, though, gets a bit mind-bending!
No doubt one of the big model railway manufacturers will make an offer on buying the rights, manufacture it in China, and retail it for an unaffordable price making a zillion percent profit.
@@DavidRobinson-rj2sp Thank you! It combines my love of programming, electronics and model railways.... so really, it's the perfect project for me! The thought that it could fill a niche in the model railway market is just icing, really (and was definitely not why I embarked on building it!)
Like others here have said, I looked into getting a turntable but was put off by the choices available. They are either ridiculously expensive, noisy plastic toys from the 60's or HO scale which won't take larger OO locos.
Speak to your man about half step or micro stepping for greater control and to get rid of "Cogging". Unless you can find a stepper motor with a hollow shaft, mounting direct will leave you with no way to connect the track power, so you end up with a drive belt (more complexity and possible slop). You need to know the position (so the controller needs to be involved) to enable track power to be reversed at a certain point in rotation, else the tracks will short, or you could fit a reverse loop polarity changer if you are DCC.
The system does use micro stepping, and the 'cogging' effect is barely noticeable. Certainly at a normal viewing distance it is very difficult to perceive. My current thoughts are to go with the direct drive, although there is no slop or backlash in the belt system. As for getting power to the tracks, the slip ring is the easy way, but there are alternatives which I am experimenting with. Of course with radio control, track power is not an issue....but that can wait for a future video. Thanks for watching, James
Yep, we're on 1/32nd microstepping (6400 steps/rev) already... I rather naively started out assuming 1/4 - or at worst 1/8 - steps would be plenty fine enough... but it really wasn't anywhere near... All my testing has been at N-gauge sizes; James tests at OO-gauge. I think for O-gauge, a gear reduction system would be essential (and maybe a bigger motor too...)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I knew that without microstepping it would cog, but am surprised I can still see a tiny bit cogging on direct driven OO! You will have to up your game and get synchronous resolvers! LOL. I used to fit them in aircraft instruments, they give stepless resolution, but best of luck writing the digital based software driver output!
Unfortunately, we're already at the smallest microsteps available (1/32 = 6400 steps/rev). When I get some free time, I'm going to look at maybe using a rotary encoder/dc motor (aka a servo drive - like proper CNC milling machines use, for example), but the software to control those is significantly more complicated - and despite James' assertions of my supposed intelligence - I think that might actually break my brain!
Hi Paul, Yes they are. I'm lucky to enjoy a good community spirit on here, and am regularly blown-away by seeing viewers creations. This system really is something else though - I'm considering incorporating it into my dining table for the condiments. :)
I agree with the things said by @user-lo1cy2by5f. I would be after a kit or as he says, if you don't go into production, please release the info so we can build a clone
Ade and I discussed this last night. All options are on the table ranging from open-source, a kit of parts, through to RTR. We'll keep you all updated. Thanks for watching, James
Just what i'm looking for !! I want one ! This seems to be a super well thought out system ! I hope it is made available to consumers !
Ade has been beavering away on the electronics of this, and there are some updates in-progress as I write. I'll provided a more detailed update soon.
Thanks for watching,
James
Not being a Famous UA-camr (tm) - I unfortunately have a full time day job, which has recently been excessively (in my humble opinion!) demanding of my time... but rest assured, progress, albeit glacial, is taking place!
As so many others have said, what a fantastic collaboration and I want one as and when development is complete! Thanks for sharing.
Hello James, my wife and I really enjoy your videos and especially appreciate your pioneering approach to creating your models. We found this video very interesting indeed. I am a retired mechanical design engineer, one of the very important features of any turntable design is the alignment of the bridge with the feeder tracks, repeatability needs to be very accurate indeed. I do not recall you mentioning the angular tolerance of the stepper motor and also the importance of ensuring that the bridge is truly at 90 degrees to the rotating axis. We look forward to watching the next installment to see how you have resolved these issues. Take care, keep up the good work.
I'll let James talk about the mechanical stuff, as he's much better at it than I am... The drive unit has a resolution of 6400 steps per rotation in direct drive, i.e. it's accurate to 0.056°. With a 5:1 belt drive, it's around 0.01° So far, we think it's extremely repeatable, so long as the connection between the stepper and the bridge has no play. Further testing - particularly geared - is in progress.
Alignment of the rails on the bridge would be critical with the current implementation - however, I'm going to add a correction setting, so if the head & tail aren't perfectly centred, a "go to tail" command will still line up properly. Obviously, if head & tail aren't perfectly aligned, then there's nothing that can be done to allow a loco to drive straight over the turntable.... But that would be for the builder to resolve!
There are some very talented People out there, thank you for sharing James.
Brilliant! Clever
Please put me down for one. I have a Kitwood Hill Models On30 turntable I have been wanting to "automate" and this is just what I am looking for! Well done both of you!
Hi James, congratulations to yourself and Ade, what a fantastic piece of kit. Would definitely be interested in buying a kit
Thanks for sharing this, the ingenuity out there never ceases to amaze!
I couldn't agree more. The best thing about having this UA-cam channel has been making connections with really creative people. Folks who I would otherwise never meet.
Thanks for watching,
James
I like the previous suggestions of a kit. Going further, perhaps various sub assemblies could be offered for those who want a custom configuration. If this never comes to pass, maybe you might consider selling schematics and a parts list as a pdf . This project is too brilliant to wind up in the dust bin.
Don't worry it wont end up in the dust bin. We're discussing how best it might be made available, and the sub-assembly/kit form approach might well be the most appropriate. There are a few finishing touches and features to add though before it's ready for release.
Hats off to Ade & you. I looked into turntables a while back & concluded I don't have the space. But the main thing that put me off was the hideous noise of the solutions provided by some other mainstream manufacturers. Even at this stage what you have is far superior.
Thank you Chris. Ade is a genius. This is such a fun device to play with. I've barely scratched the surface of its potential in this video.
Thanks for watching,
James
So... I'm still not truly happy with the stepper noise (they ARE noisy little things, aren't they?); but I happened to watch a video on how to program an ADM turntable (believe it or not - this unit was developed without me having ANY knowledge whatsoever about the ADM turntables!) - good grief, what a racket! I noticed that when James mounted his into the direct drive "full size" mockup, it got a bit louder. I think some rubber isolation mounts will help with that.
As to not having space... you could have a little wagon turntable somewhere, surely? 😂 They're only a little bigger than a goods wagon; there's absolutely no reason why the turntable receiver couldn't drive a smaller stepper motor, say a NEMA-11, which is only 28mm square; or even a NEMA-8 at 20mm sq.
I have also been working on turntable control but this project is on a whole different level and is ground breaking. Please keep us informed as to how this might be made available. Brilliant and hats off! Another suggestion might also be touchscreen control. This would negate buttons as well!
We have discussed it, and it would be doable, possibly in the future, maybe even with a smartphone. For now I think we quite like the old-school tactile nature of the buttons. But I'll pass the thought on to Ade.
Thank you for your kind feedback,
James
Hi James. Thanks for sharing. I have been using an ADM turntable for several years with complete reliability. It basically uses the same system of stepper motor with belt drive. However, it lacks the wi-fi ability and the screen, the control panel being linked by an umbilical cord. I am satisfied with the ADM system, but I can see the advantages of this new system, and I'm sure it would be a good seller if the price can be kept reasonable. The ADM system is rather expensive but does come fully assembled. Pete
HI Pete, a friend of mine has the ADM turntable and it's a great piece of kit, sadly unavailable at the moment though.
Thanks for watching,
James
Brilliant bit of kit, looking forward to see how It develops! Eddie 🤓
Thank you Eddie, It really is superb.
Thanks for watching,
James
Hello there . . . This is a superb solution to finding a realistic turntable drive option, congratulations on all your work done so far !! - hopefully you will now be able to further develop it into saleable product, manufactured in the UK in order to avoid too many of the frustrations associated with far east productions, you deserve to succeed with this product, and ultimately get the rewards that are due to you . . . Thank you for drawing attention to this !! . . . can’t wait to see it progress onwards . . . rest assured I’m in the queue to purchase when your ready to sell !!
Thank you kindly 😊 Truth be told, I've not made a lot of progress on it recently (life & work getting in the way), but I've got the basic colour screen going - the circuit board now needs revising to accommodate it; and there's all the usual bugs & glitches to work out. I'm also working out a suitable mounting system for a Peco N-gauge turntable (which will be a lot easier to do than the Peco/Dapol OO gauge kit, which is horrid!), I'd like to make a video at some point showing it on a test layout. But there's still some work to do yet. Hopefully, James will have some cool stuff to show on the actual turntable mechanism soon!
I've designed a turntable for small SM32 locos that's fully 3D printed and currently has a 28BYJ48 stepper motor. It spins on a ball bearing. I haven't tested it yet as I've still got to write the software, but if the motor isn't up to the job it would be easy to adapt for a NEMA17 motor. It doesn't need to be as sophisticated as this one, so I've just made provision in the base for an Arduino Nano, the motor driver and a 433MHz receiver. The first test print spins nicely by hand. Fortunately I don't need power to the track as the locos will be radio controlled! Watching this video has inspired me to get on and finish it!
That's fab, I'm pleased that this video has provided you with some inspiration. Do let me know how you get on.
Rumour has it that there might be a cheeky SM32 project on the channel in the next few months, so stay tuned as it might be of interest to you.
@@BexhillWest My trouble is that I have too many different projects on the go, in multiple scales and gauges, and I keep switching between them. But I'm currently 3D printing parts for a SM32 loco, so the turntable isn't far from my mind!!
I'd definitely have one if became available, brilliant bit of kit 😊
It's still in development! Slowly getting there...
I want one! That's what I have been looking for.
Hi James, Any news on the turntable controller?
What an excellent bit of kit. Ingenious. Particularly, as only a couple of days ago, I was watching another UA-cam channel where a chap had built a turntable out of cardboard, which was operated by two pieces of string! That one had a limitation in that it couldn't do a full 360 degree turn (it didn't need to for that person's purposes). But that brings me to my one suggestion for an enhancement to Ade's and your control box: could it reverse the polarity/phase of the track on the bridge if it knew it was doing a full 360, to prevent short circuits?
When you mentioned that it could control two turntables at the same time, it reminded me of a fantasy project of mine to model the roundhouse at Hamburg Altona in Germany, with its double, overlapping turntables.
I've been thinking about the polarity issue... and actually I think it should be fairly straightforward: Since each road should have a known polarity (because that's wired in), it should be possible to set the polarity when configuring the road in the controller. I guess the only wrinkle to that would be if one of the tracks was reversible (like a point frog is) - but the initial version should be able to handle wired polarity at least. The real trick will be to ensure that DCC locos don't see any interruption in power if a polarity switch is needed; I'll figure that one out though.
BTW, for a full 360 degree, no polarity switch is needed! Also, the turntable & running rails should never be in electrical contact with each other (except when the loco is crossing the gap, of course), which will greatly simplify things from some of the insane schemes I had running around in my head!
Hi James. Having recently returned to the hobby I purchased an HO Rivarossi BiG Boy and was wondering about a turntable. This brilliant kit would do that job as well as my British engines with the required length adjustments. Well done Ade and James.
Hi James. What a great piece of kit!!! Love the wire free app for the control box!
I wondered what it’s retail cost would be? Maybe a bit early to get an exact price, but a ballpark figure would be good?
Thanks for showing this!
Keep up the great work!
Keith
Hi Keith,
Nice to hear from you. It's all very early days, and it hasn't been discussed. For me, it's genius is the lack of mechanical complexity which helps keep the cost down and reliability up.
I'll post an update if there is any discussion or development on this.
All the best,
James
Looks a great bit of kit, definitely in interested in understanding ball park cost 👍
It's not possible to put a price on it yet - the BOM isn't finalised, and whilst I have an approximate cost for the electronics, that obviously doesn't cover any of the mechanical stuff. Furthermore, if there's strong enough interest, then the unit cost can be made lower by bulk-buying components. For some of the higher cost items, that might mean actual negotiations with the manufacturer...
What I will say is - I expect it to be significantly cheaper to buy than a 2nd hand ADM turntable: I can't promise an order of magnitude, but that's a nice target to aim for, I think.
I would definitely be interested in one for my layout. Particularly if it was a kit of parts that I could assemble/ upload firmware/software. Many thanks for sharing!
As I'm in the process of building my own turntable, hats off to you. Awesome build. I'd be very interested in the electronics/software side, as I'm planning on using an Arduino.
We're using ESP32s - they're like an Arduino on an unholy combination of steroids and speed, with WiFi... You can write and upload code to them using the Arduino IDE, so it's a very easy learning curve. I can recommend the AZ-Delivery Devkits, there are some other brands too which are sometimes cheaper. One thing to watch, though, they're not 5v tolerant, so you'll either need a bag full of level converters - or just run everything at 3.3v. They do have 1 5v in/out pin, which you can either use to supply power; or you can draw a small amount of power from it. We use a 12v-to-5v converter to power the MCU and the screen; all the other components are fed from the 3.3v output of the MCU board.
Thanks. What you call crude would look really good on slot of layouts.
Definitely be interested especially as kits of sub assemblies
Very interesting indeed James. I just hope I'll be able to get my grubby little mitts on one. LOL. I do like the option of being able to expand the system. Excellent work there.
That's an interesting way to go about it. I've built a few controllers over the years and found that you need to keep the controls as simple as possible.
My latest controler is very simple. It has two duel 7-segment displays. Left shows the track you're on and the right shows the track you want to go to. A 5-button round switch plate. Up and down for choosing the track you want. Left and right for jogging the turntable just in case there is a misalignment. And the center button is to activate. And lastly, there is a 180-turn button with an indicator. (Six buttons total)
So to use it, you just press the up or down buttons to select the track number you want. Push the 180 turn if you want the loco turned, then push select. (If you only want the loco turned then just push 180-turn and select) The unit will automatically turn the table left or right whichever is the shortest route. When you turn it off, it remembers the last position so when turned on again, there is no need to recalibrate. It also has the ability to run sound files that match perfectly to the movements of the turn table.
The proto-type has been built for a fellow club member. I've got two more to build. One for myself once I get my turntable installed, and one for the club. I also have plans to incorporate it into DCC which would allow you to control the turntable from your throttle. Lastly, I have plans to design an Auto-alignment system so I can eliminate the jog buttons. (Even though you seldom need to use them) But these are projects for another day.
You make some good points (not a railway pun, honest!). KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) is a sound design philosophy. Hopefully, with some of the recent changes (which aren't yet public, on account I've not got them to James yet!) will improve the usability. Ultimately, though, this isn't much more difficult to use than the one you describe: Press a "road" button (0-9 currently), press "clockwise" or "anti-clockwise", and away it goes. Most of the complexity is in the setup; but I've tried to make that as simple as possible (aim the turntable, press a road number, press another button to save it).
It's actually fascinating to hear about other people's projects: e.g. I'd never even considered the idea of playing synchronised sound files... Would love to see a video or blog about your turntable, if you're willing to share. (any updates to this one will appear on this channel)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I'm going to bookmark this video and conversation. Right now, I'm extremely busy, but I have no problem to get back to you in the future. I will then send you some pics etc.
@@theelectricmonk3909 Here is a link to the video which I plan to extract the sound files from. I would need to create at least three sound files. Ramping up, Ramping down and continuous. The continuous file length would need to vary depending on how far the turntable is turning. ua-cam.com/video/6ClqItEb2to/v-deo.html I think if not used for commercial purposes, it would not be illegal to use the sound from this video.
Well done to both of you. Very ingenious.
Thank you, that's very kind. But this really is all Ade's work. :)
^^ This is not true, of course :D OK, I'll own up to the electronics & software... but all of the mechanical genius is coming from James!
Very nice concept and design. Well done. I would be very interested in one if they were ever shared or produced in a series.
A kit would be fantastic, even just a wiring diagram and detailed part list would be great as I have my own FDM and resin printers to make the case. Here in the USA there is little available for 2 rail Midland Rail in O Gauge but using a kit I purchased before I left the UK some 25 years ago I could make a realistic turntable. I would obviously be prepared to pay for the information. I have sent you an e-mail via your website. Many thanks for a great video👍
A great product and a great video. I really enjoy coming to watch your channel. Thanks for sharing and keep up the excellent work!
Thank you Jonathan, I'm pleased you enjoy the videos. It's nice to share someone else's talents on here.
Hopefully some good food for thought in today's video.
Ingenious and a lot quieter than most. It might be an idea to have separate versions available ie a basic model and one "all singing and dancing"? Some of the features may never be used on many layouts; whether this is possible by separate parts being available or not would obviously be dependent on whether that is possible.
In truth, there's no real benefit to splitting it into "basic" vs. "all singing/dancing" at the moment: The only major expense is in the hardware, and that's the same no matter what... I think I can speak for James as well in saying that we have no intention of "profiteering" from this device, and since the only difference between a basic & advanced version would be which features got knobbled, it's not a route I''d be comfortable following.
That said... when we start looking at some more advanced features (e.g. sector turntables, interlocked turntables (I have my eye on that crazy one that used to be in Hamburg-Altona), traversers, and so on - then there may be scope to have different versions.
@@theelectricmonk3909 Thanks. I must admit I hadn't considered that the hardware would be the most expensive part so my comment was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Probably based on what commercial producers tend to do!!! I look forward to seeing future progress.
@@jeanmcginlay2363 Well, in all honesty, if this was paying my mortgage, I might look at it a little differently! But it's not - it started as a random "help someone out on the internet" bit of fun... but given how much demand there seems to be, it's turning into a side hustle :D IMHO if it pays for the development costs (I have sunk a few hundred quid into PCBs, components, etc.), and buys me a few beers every year, I'll be a happy bunny.
@@theelectricmonk3909 Judging by the responses I've seen it could up being a full time occupation!!
Awesome bit of gear :)
Very interested in the turntable, I require one which can be programmed a DCC decoder, so please keep the channel updated regarding this fantastic development.
Disappointing for you that the laser cutter has failed again.
Chin up, sure you will solve the root cause.
PS the uni strut sub assembly is a great way forward too.
Great work, and very interesting episode
This was magnificent, the simplicity and wifi connectivity - brilliant. This would be great as a kit or schematic and sell the programming seperately. Definately interested. I suppose the next iteration will be DCC or a specific turntable app.
Cheers from Australia.
DCC support is definitely on the wish list. I'm yet to figure out how - but it seems like a good excuse to build a small DCC layout 😁
Brilliant! If it is affordable, you'll sell hundreds!
Excellent idea, I would be very interested in purchasing the system if and when it comes to market. I look forward to hearing more about it.
Hi James, very cool idea, out of interest what size (power rating) is the Nema 17 stepper motor your using on the bigger turn table?
wish i had the room for a turntable , would definitely be interested in this.
Thank for watching Craig. :)
Hello. Simply brilliant! Exactly what I've been seeking for years. Is there a kit available yet for purchase? Thank you.
Rick D.
Hi Rick; It's not finalised into a kit yet; there's still a few things to do before they'll be possible - and due to a "lost year" I've only recently made some fresh progress on the controller. There should be an update here soon!
Wow! This is beyond exceptional. My hat is off to both of you for this excellent implementation. I am quite sure it is far more sophisticated than anything the prototype ever had. There will be lots of modelers who will be pretty jealous that your turntable is far superior to anything they have currently.
Two thoughts:
1) The jerkiness and noise are often a function of the stepper motors, particularly the stepper motor drivers. Are you using micro-stepping?
2) A possible enhancement would be a Wi-Fi interface to your computer so that you could program, backup, and restore settings from the computer.
Hi John, to answer your questions:
1) Yes, we're on the smallest microsteps we can do - 1/32 or 6400 steps/rev. The cogging isn't crazy, but it's noticeable at very slow speeds. Hopefully, gearing will resolve that. Keeping the steppers quiet is a constant battle - and the noise seems to vary from stepper to to stepper; I bought about a dozen in one go, and they all make different noises!
2) It's an excellent idea! There is a rudimentary interface with the PC via USB cable right now (I didn't tell James that! You can't do much with it yet), but I believe I've found a way to connect it to "your" WiFi network, as well as it's own network, which would open up a whole world of computer possibilites - including a smartphone app, website, repeater display... etc.
This is fantastic, I have been messing about for ages as I couldn't afford the mega bucks some suppliers were asking. Your efforts both of you are to be applauded and thank you so much. Could I ask how far you have both progressed this now, as I am looking for exactly one or two of these for my OO Gauge layout.
Hi there - it's been a bit of a crazy year for me, so progress isn't as advanced as I'd like... but there has been some, and hopefully there'll be an update Real Soon Now!
Hi James, Tremendous project. Is there a way interested modellers can be notified of future production plans?
Hi Michael - keep an eye on James' videos - there'll be an update when we're a bit closer to having something battle-ready. 👍
Thinking about it more, with two turntable controllable he's basically got the fundamentals for a goto telescope drive. Just needs to add sidereal tracking and change the programmable points to RA and DEC co-ordinates and job done 🙂
Hi Malcolm, I'd had a similar idea for a camera mount. I'd find it really useful when making my videos.
How is the turntable project progressing? Are things moving forward to make this a commercial product? Approx timescales?
Hi Bob,
I've sent you an email.
Please add me to the list of potential buyers ! Really nice and simple implementation.
BTW do the turntable electronics incorporate a slow down / speed up functionality as the bridge approaches a road ?
Hi there - yes, the turntable both accelerates away from its start point, and decelerates as it approaches the target road. The rate of acceleration (and the speed it achieves between roads) is configurable using the controller.
I like the turntable would be interested in getting one myself I’ve subscribed to your channel keep us updated
Gearing / belt for smooth ride; yes, definitely needed, would even say for testing try a turntable length for long gauge 1 steam engines (from gauge 0 upwardly self building and looking like the one from the modeled location turntables rises alot).
Locking pin mechanism; for safe fixing in position (you got the needed cable connections into the mock-up platform ready for it as it looks).
"Polarisation change"-topic; see JumbleLane´s comment.
Is a second contol unite useable at the same time? (With future modules, from others, between your terminus and your fiddle yard, it may happen that both turntables are more then 10m away from each other).
Control useable for traverser / transfer table, too?
Till next vid or earlyer if I comment again 😉
Hi - just a quick reply (I'm in housekeeping mode today - Mrs has been on holiday for a few weeks, if the house isn't spotless when she returns, I'll be for the chop!)
I'd say anything larger than OO would want gearing anyway, just to keep the stepper size reasonable; this would have the side effect of eliminating any visible jitter.
Locking pins - wouldn't be needed for O gauge or smaller I guess; but yeah, anything bigger and it would make sense. No reason why an output from the MCU couldn't be used (there's loads going spare) to fire a solenoid to pull the pin(s) just before the t/t moves.
2nd control unit: The answer is "it depends": If you mean, a 2nd controller to control different devices (e.g. if you had 8 turntables!); then yes. Don't ask me what the limit is, I don't know: Lots. If you mean can you have 2 controllers paired to the same turntables: Right now, no, but it's certainly possible, and it's something James & I have discussed for future development.
Finally; at the moment, the software is pretty dedicated to being a turntable controller. However, it absolutely could control other devices, e.g. traversers, swing bridges, lift bridges, etc. (although I'm aware that there are almost certainly dozens of such devices already). I'd say that, anything that requires a repeatable and precise amount of motion, is a good candidate for automation via extending this system. However.... it won't be happening very soon - there's still plenty of testing & development to do before this thing is ready for it's wider debut...
hi i have just found this video here and would like to know if there's any progress on it becoming available to purchase as a kit or motor and controller kit to interoperate into a scratch built turntable ? thanks
Got me thinking it could be modified to drive a storage traverser too, so in a linear motion with a lead screw.
I watched with interest but found one thing you did not mention. You showed you had track power onthe wires fed through the tube via the slip rings. When turning they would have to switch polarity like the Heljan turntable that I use. Normally there is a dead spot where the polarity change takes place. This is not a very good thing for sound fitted locos as they have to start up again and the lights turn off and turn back on. Using something like a frog juicer could be a better alternative to a dead spot. What have you got in mind in your design?
Would say with "changing the polarisation" with the "electrically witchery thing" run through DCC Reverse Loops get done, too (if you want to get more into the DCC electrical side of model railways look up NEM 680 and around) 😉
@@lassunsschaun6859 I understand the technical side but wanted to know if this has been implemented in this model and which way it was implemented
As of this moment, we've not implemented polarity switching. We are aware it needs to be done, and that there are a variety of ways to do it (especially for DC). For DCC, my thinking would be to sense when both rails are at 0v, and switch over then. That said, I don't know if switching in the middle of a DCC message would cause problems, so I could do with reading up on the specs for DCC. If I have to wait for a gap between messages, then that's fine; I just need to know that so I can code it. It also means adding an H-bridge to the receiver unit, which is going to up the cost a little... but not too much hopefully.
Even a fully automatic polarity switcher can't completely eliminate the possibility of user error though - e.g. if you point the "head" of the turntable at one track, then reverse off the "tail" onto another track that's at the opposite polarity... well, you can envisage the resulting fire.
I like the kit idea but how many layouts have more than one turntable? Just one would surely make more commercial sense.
It's just software, at the end of the day, the bits & bytes within are basically free... and there's spare buttons on the keypad, so why not use them? James & I also have some ideas for adding "things that aren't turntables, but could benefit from this sort of digital control" options, e.g. a traverser, or a quadrant turntable. There's also a few exhibition layouts out there with more than one turntable - usually one scenic, and one non-scenic. I can probably think of other reasons if those aren't enough!
@@theelectricmonk3909
I'm revelling in your engineering skills, your ingenuity and your sheer why on earth not attitude.
More power to your elbow sir.
This is a great unit,I would definitely be interested in purchasing one . Can it be adapted for the North American market??
It most certainly can. I'm looking into North American turntable design at the moment. Would there be a particular design you'd be interested in?
All the best,
James
Amazing project, thanks for sharing, one thought, rather than having a wireless control box could you design a smartphone app so that you could do away for the need of a control box completely ? just a thought...
Thank you for the suggestion Dave. That is certainly something to think about.
All the best,
James
I currently use an ADM turntable that I am really happy with. However, as ADM have ceased trading and are no longer supplying turntables, if I ever need another turntable this unit looks like it would fit the bill admirably. One thing you didn't cover is how the feed to the bridge track is handled with regard to switching polarity on the rails as the bridge turns. I don't know how the ADM does it, but it happens seamlessly as evidenced by sound fitted locos gently simmering away as the bridge rotates through 180 degrees. As the unit supplied by Ade is concerned with just turning the bridge, I'm guessing the track feed and switching of polarity would have to be engineered by the end user?
James has found some rather nifty slip-ring bearings, which would go up the shaft of the turntable & connect the wires. One idea I had (but haven't pursued beyond wondering about it) was PCB tracks on the turntable underside, and spring-loaded contacts. As yet, the turntable software doesn't have any kind of track polarity switching in it, but we've thought about it! Just need to figure out the best way to achieve it...
@@theelectricmonk3909 Thanks Ade. As you probably know ADM fits their unit to a Peco turntable, which has sprung contacts on the underside of the rails to transfer power. With regard to polarity switching, I am wondering if they use something like a Frog Juicer, as has been suggested by one of the other comments.
@@delboy1727 I'd never even heard of a Frog Juicer 🤣 What a great name... It's worth noting that whatever scheme we come up with needs to handle both DC and DCC - ideally relatively simply... Unfortunately, it's surprisingly difficult to make stuff simple!
Nice job.. Is it GRBL-based with Arduino like CNC-machines?
No GRBL here! With only one DOF (degree of freedom), simple step counting from a known home position is plenty good enough.
Hi, excellent. Love the sensible speed and acceleration and deceleration. Is there a more simple version that does not use WiFi in the planning stage, after all we don't want our railway dependent on routers lol
It would be possible to produce a ‘wired’ connection between the controller and turntable but would be unnecessary.
In this case the WiFi network is created between the controller and the turntable. It is independent of a router.
You could put this on the moon and it would still work.
Thanks for watching,
James
@@BexhillWest oh, it's making its own connection. Certainly cleaver
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited BTW, when James says "the moon" - he means the model moon that everyone's got suspended over their layout.....(!) Actually, the limit is probably around 20-30 meters, but due to the way the wifi works, you could put one (say) 10 meters away, another one 10 meters further out, and another one 10 meters past that... and they'd all work with a controller 10 meters back the other way! I wish I could take credit for that, but it's a library that's available for ESP32s, I just use it.
Hi I love it I want one ,where can I buy it , how much ,would it come complete and ready to fit if you do decide to market it please keep it British it would mean so much to us railway modellers maybe speak to Pete Waterman I'm sure he would be impressed and maybe give you some help and guidance ,can't wait to buy one.
Please keep me in mind for one of these as well, I run my trains on an arduino and would love one of these for my turn table.
Will do. I'll post an update when there is progress to report.
Thanks for watching,
James
Hi I would be interested in buying a kit. What are you thinking in terms of the set up would it include a turntable well or will it be just the control box and the other parts required without the well. Only reason I am asking I have a peco well installed with a very noisy drive system lining up by eye.
Hey Derek, glad you like it :) I'm thinking it will be available with or without an actual turntable - specifically for people like yourself who already have a TT installed but would like to automate/improve its control. After a bit of a busy year doing other things, I'm back on the TT project now, there should be an update very soon!
very good just what i am looking for as i have already built the turntable with a stepper motor belt drive and sliprings whit a modified peco 55 turntable ,but i cant get my head around programming a Arduino . So yes i would be interested in buying a controller
That's N scale, right? I'd be curious, what does your drive mechanism look like? I've also got a Peco 55 here; and it looks to be a bit of a dog to motorise...
Very nice, for once I have no use for it, but it's still nice
Thanks David.
Look at the topic on a wider range -> traverser / transfer table / Schiebebühne may profit from the control, too -> How about something like watch?v=j47hV6xfIYg as "fiddle yard" for your planned layout? 😉
Could this system be used with segment turntables (i.e. the pie slice turntable) to replace point and head shunt at the end of a line station with run around track? Also segment turntable with storage depot tracks?
In theory, yes. In practice, the electronics & software assume a full 360 degree rotation is available (and required). However... that's definitely a feature that could be implemented within what we've already got - I'll add it to the wish list!
@@theelectricmonk3909 do you have a UA-cam channel so we can follow your progress?
@@earlfreeman93 Ah, sort of.... I've not posted anything to it for several years, and it's mostly got old diesel engine videos & some machining bits & bobs on it... I should revive it really, especially now James has kindly sent me some new subscribers! In the meantime, I'd recommend keeping an eye on James' videos; however we end up distributing it, it'll be done from here.
Me too, or if you get it into production Tell us all what we need to build something Like this ✔✔😃😃
It's too early to say for sure - but I anticipate we will offer the controller/receiver unit(s) assembled and ready to go; with an optional turntable kit (or possibly pre-assembled as an option). If there's enough demand, we could probably offer the controller/receiver as a kit of parts too, for a little less (since I won't have to assemble them!)
Hi
Yes I would be very interested. Obviously depending on price!
Thank you for the feedback, I'll post on here as/when/if the project gets to a point that we might be able to start to consider a sale price.
All the best,
James
One thing you didn't address is how would calibrate the drive system to the reduction of the belt drive. In your demonstration the turntable only moved one fifth the distance the controller thought it did due to the 5:1 reduction of the belt pulleys. Going with direct drive as you mentioned in another comment makes this moot, but does the controller allow you to program how many steps equals 360 degrees of rotation?
There is a calibration routine in the software, and it should be able to handle any reduction ratio (at least up to 10-1, maybe more; although you get into the realms of waiting hours for it to initialise!) - however, we've not fully tested it yet, and I'm thinking the software might be a bit over-aggressive in how accurate it wants to be... But it's on the list to be sorted out!
That's my bad, I should have explained the calibration. The belt drive version in the video didn't have a magnet on it to trigger the sensor and so was in effect running to the program of the direct drive version. In my excitement/ineptitude I forgot to make that clear. Rest assured the controller has some clever trickery in it's initial calibration routine which accounts for the indirect drive.
This looks superb. I will be definitely be interested in purchasing if it is capable of being controlled by automation software (such as iTrain). Would it help if I talk to the creator of iTrain and get details of what those requirements are? I would highly recommend that those requirements are considered early in the development.
The rotating display is an interesting feature. Perhaps some presets could be made in the software for North, South, East and West orientations, for example.
BTW I've left a comment on Ades' electric monk site. My father had an engine similar to that. Its sadly now a garden ornament.
It's a good job I don't have one of those engines. I think I'd enjoy passing time just watching it running - I'd never get anything done. :)
@@BexhillWest yes, as a kid I was fascinated by the pop-pop sound.
A Petter Universal M-type
Hi Bob - I only just realised you'd made a suggestion here (sorry!) - Stop giving me ideas! I'm now wondering if I could build in a compass, which would automatically rotate the display with the control unit!!! Hmm, or maybe a 3D display........ (no... must stop...)
In all seriousness, that is a good idea, especially if the control unit is likely to be mobile. Not too hard to implement either... Consider it on the list for consideration!
WRT iTrain; for sure, I'd be interested in getting in touch with him. I'm sure the interface will end up being reasonably straightforward; but as you say, the earlier it's thought about, the easier it is to implement. Thanks! 👍
Clever stuff ...
Instead of the belt drive, how about fitting a heavy flywheel to the drive axle to dampen the jerking
It's a great thought; but the "cogging" (i.e. the jerking) is unfortunately a function of the stepper. A heavy flywheel would potentially make it worse, and if heavy enough would actually cause the stepper to lose steps; which then affects your positional accuracy. Another solution (where the flywheel WOULD work) would be to use a DC motor with an encoder, instead of a stepper. The software to accurately control it with acceleration/deceleration and so on, though, gets a bit mind-bending!
... and you would need to brake the flywheel at the end of the move so it doesn´t run to far.
No doubt one of the big model railway manufacturers will make an offer on buying the rights, manufacture it in China, and retail it for an unaffordable price making a zillion percent profit.
They can try.... but I have no intention of letting that happen!
@@theelectricmonk3909: Brilliant piece of kit.
@@DavidRobinson-rj2sp Thank you! It combines my love of programming, electronics and model railways.... so really, it's the perfect project for me! The thought that it could fill a niche in the model railway market is just icing, really (and was definitely not why I embarked on building it!)
@@theelectricmonk3909: If it was available I'd definitely have one.
Superlative piece of work.
Where and price pl z
Like others here have said, I looked into getting a turntable but was put off by the choices available. They are either ridiculously expensive, noisy plastic toys from the 60's or HO scale which won't take larger OO locos.
Speak to your man about half step or micro stepping for greater control and to get rid of "Cogging". Unless you can find a stepper motor with a hollow shaft, mounting direct will leave you with no way to connect the track power, so you end up with a drive belt (more complexity and possible slop). You need to know the position (so the controller needs to be involved) to enable track power to be reversed at a certain point in rotation, else the tracks will short, or you could fit a reverse loop polarity changer if you are DCC.
The system does use micro stepping, and the 'cogging' effect is barely noticeable. Certainly at a normal viewing distance it is very difficult to perceive. My current thoughts are to go with the direct drive, although there is no slop or backlash in the belt system. As for getting power to the tracks, the slip ring is the easy way, but there are alternatives which I am experimenting with. Of course with radio control, track power is not an issue....but that can wait for a future video.
Thanks for watching,
James
Yep, we're on 1/32nd microstepping (6400 steps/rev) already... I rather naively started out assuming 1/4 - or at worst 1/8 - steps would be plenty fine enough... but it really wasn't anywhere near... All my testing has been at N-gauge sizes; James tests at OO-gauge. I think for O-gauge, a gear reduction system would be essential (and maybe a bigger motor too...)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I knew that without microstepping it would cog, but am surprised I can still see a tiny bit cogging on direct driven OO! You will have to up your game and get synchronous resolvers! LOL. I used to fit them in aircraft instruments, they give stepless resolution, but best of luck writing the digital based software driver output!
Could you have stayed with the original direct drive and have the stepper motor use micro-stepping so the steps become unnoticeable.
Unfortunately, we're already at the smallest microsteps available (1/32 = 6400 steps/rev). When I get some free time, I'm going to look at maybe using a rotary encoder/dc motor (aka a servo drive - like proper CNC milling machines use, for example), but the software to control those is significantly more complicated - and despite James' assertions of my supposed intelligence - I think that might actually break my brain!
@@theelectricmonk3909 Sounds interesting - looking forward to seeing this develop
ain't people great.
Hi Paul, Yes they are. I'm lucky to enjoy a good community spirit on here, and am regularly blown-away by seeing viewers creations. This system really is something else though - I'm considering incorporating it into my dining table for the condiments. :)
@@BexhillWest Hmmm 🤔So, instead of numeric labels, we'd need "Salt", "Pepper", "Tabasco sauce" and so on? 😁
I agree with the things said by @user-lo1cy2by5f. I would be after a kit or as he says, if you don't go into production, please release the info so we can build a clone
Ade and I discussed this last night. All options are on the table ranging from open-source, a kit of parts, through to RTR.
We'll keep you all updated.
Thanks for watching,
James