Jordan Peterson - What We Get Wrong About Faith
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- Опубліковано 1 бер 2018
- original source: • Lecture: Biblical Seri...
Trying to convince yourself in the existence of a transcendent power is a weak approach to fortify your faith in Being.
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I see Jordan, I click.
Transphobia is a good thing.
Amen
I'd much rather look at religion for its symbolism rather than to have to view it as a literal account of things that happened. The latter is what repels me from it, the former is what attracts me to it.
*+streglof* Agreed, as one who was raised Christian, I personally believe there is more value to be applied in humanity from the former rather than the latter. Sadly, I doubt we'll ever come to a consensus on that as a whole.
Two ways of looking at the same thing to me. To each his own, I seem to find myself in the middle of a venn diagram between the two.
The problem is that the symbolic view takes away the spiritual realness of it. If you want morality don't find your all in symbols look to objectivity or your morality is based on environment and your knowledge. God's objectivity, in any sense really, but morality is the highest "form" (form in the platonic sense). But why follow a God who is so unattainable? C.S. Lewis said in the Problem of Pain, "we can recognize God's morality is of a higher standard, even if it's different from ours at the beginning. Suppose you are a somewhat immoral person. If you surround yourself with moral people, a process takes place where you would gradually learn to accept their standards. Even if they aren't in your mind already, in your mind they are 'better'. You know this because you feel guilt and shame." This is the relationship to God in the process of sanctification.
All to say, symbolism leads to vanity. God must be real (literal) in order for your life to be tethered to something real (literal). That's not to say that there isn't genres and sub-genres in the whole of the Bible. There are. Not everything is literal and the job of the reader is understand the intention fo the author (this is hermeneutics/exegesis). I study this in school.
Paul Armstrong
Interesting comment, see where I stand on the line of symbolism and actuality is that, I don’t see them being mutually exclusive. I think the symbolism is pointing towards a real, underlying reality. Much like C.S Lewis and Tolkien believed, I think the symbolism and reoccurring themes are clues that there is more to life than just matter and motion.
@@lifewasgiventous1614 I would say that both exist in the biblical narrative as a form of communication. And sometimes within the same theological topic or biblical story as well. The Bible is not simple.
Symbolism has its purpose in reminding the generations of truth when it is lost and symbolism becomes vain (that is the trend until we are reminded by hardships and genuine seekers find themselves back to the truth of objectivity or the divine-- I'd argue the Christian God). That is why symbolism tends to be temporary that is also the trend of reading scripture in a symbolic manner. But reality... now that's eternal and it is made real by connection to the divine which is called "a relationship with God" in Christian terms. Traditions (found in Catholicism, Episcopalians, Lutherans for example) follow this idea of the symbolism I've described. I'm not against traditions. But I'm against the dulling of what they really are, just doing it because you're supposed to. Life is so much deeper than that, I guess I'd argue its our responsibility to look for the Real and live our lives through that lens.
Side note: The person of Jesus was not a symbol but he was on some level (a symbol of the attributes of God-- because he is God). He was the literal communication from God to the world in human form (word became flesh John 1). This is the highest form (platonic form again). God's message through the person of Jesus was you cannot achieve this but I do not condemn you. Live without guilt and allow the attributes of myself manifest in you and change your life (this is Christian idea of accepting him as your savior). By this you will live this out because it is objectivity in its highest degree (sanctification)
Pure intellect doesn't always win, is not always superior.
Faith without works is dead.
Dead Faith is still Faith .
Sorta like how a dead person is alive
More like a dead person is still a person, genius
Lazarus LMAO
Right but ideas, much like people, require something to keep them alive. Faith discarded or ignored ceases to be much like a grandparent in a casket no longer fixes Sunday lunches.
Great channel my friend....kudos for these brief yet knowledge packed bites! 😊
YES! This is a thought I have been having more and more lately, that Faith has to be linked to action. I thought to myself: "who cares what I believe? What people should care about is how I act." It is so enjoyable to have a guy on a youtube video coming to the exact same conclusion I came to develop in the past few months :D
I would also say that if you really believed something, then you would be acting upon it.
Indeed! 💟
Have a great day ahead of you! 😄
God Bless! Stay strong, stay safe and take care of yourselves! Wishing everyone the best! 😇 💗
Love your videos, man! Your channel is what first got me introduced to Jordan Peterson, and the changes I've experienced from incorporating his principles in my life have been unfathomable. Thank you.
By the way could you consider including a time-stamp from the original source in the description in the future? I think it would make people follow this channel more since it saves them time if they want to know more about the context of what he's talking about. It would for me at least!
Have a great day ahead of you! 😄
God Bless! Stay strong, stay safe and take care of yourselves! Wishing everyone the best! 😇 💗
That last statement nails it down. Good cut
Man, this is gold.
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations." Albert Einstein. Faith is in something bigger than us.
Ha ha ha - Requires more context. Seems he's comparing the masses with children. The rest of us (atheists) know better.
Michael Hutchison that's not a pro atheist quote at all. He's saying there is definetly something going on, that is beyond our comprehension, I think he is showing humility here. I think an atheist would deal with an absolute in that there is no God, which is not what Einstein is saying.
I guess Einstein was not a genius after all. Unless this was aimed at the feelings of theists.
Michael Hutchison I think that says more about you than Albert Einstein...
Michael Hutchison, I'm not an atheist because I'm not full of myself. But I'm not a theist either. Saying there is no "God" is almost as bad as saying there is. Both opinions are spoken from a point of ignorance. The truth is, nobody yet knows, or understands the true nature of reality and the universe. To say otherwise is the height of arrogance.
God is a description of man's perception of his relationship with the rest of the Universe.
Deism? or Progressive theology? is God no more than an impersonal description or does he interact with the world in your eyes
thank you
Sounds like Soren Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith
It really does.
Character is everything.
Fair Jordan
*After having been raised Christian and gradually adopting a more agnostic view, I've come to think of it like this in a nutshell: "If there is a God or afterlife, great. I hope it's a good one. If there's nothing beyond death, then I won't care."* 🤷
I'd be physically incapable of caring because, by definition, I'd be gone. My consciousness would most likely realistically cease to exist. Would that prospect scare me prior to nearing the end on my death bed? Well, duh, of course I'd be scared.
Every human with a functional brain who lives long enough inevitably comes to understand the concept of mortality and instinctively fear it on some level. It's not a matter of choice, belief, or culture, it's a byproduct of our nature & evolution.
One of the most if not the most primal trait our species has always shared is survival instinct. That's the root of nearly all death-related fears. It's only when we come to a mindset of perceiving death as preferable that said fear often diminishes.
*Point being, I accept I'll be afraid no matter my belief and can only do my best to not dwell on what I can't control. I don't want to exist forever anyway. When my life ends, all the moments I manage to grab will hopefully flash before my eyes.*
*#EnjoyTheRide*
Stephen Covey has a good advise in "7 Habits of Highly Effective People", on their death beds no one looks back and wishes they had done more trivial things, everyone wishes to have more connection with loved ones, and wasted less time for meaningless things.
"I believe in order that I may understand." - Anselm of Canterbury
I think st Augustine said that
Faith just means trusting somebody or something its basically required to do anything
Faith is belief without evidence. Trust is generally based on evidence.
I think alot of us have grown up with some really shallow and poor notions of what certain words actually mean, for whatever reason. Here JP describes faith in a way that is wholly applicable to any human being, religious or not.
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
im seeing jordan this Thursday i hope im not watching what hes gonna talk about here!!
I just realized what i've thought is wrong until i see the end of this lecture
Still sounds to me like he doesn't really believe in god or afterlife or the supernatural or anything like that. Sounds more like literary appreciation to me. The same way one is not necessarily a budhhist monk but may agree with the logos of the Buddha's teachings. I don't mean to put words in his mouth but that still sounds leaning towards agnostic atheism or at least very close. I just don't think appreciating the bible and understanding some of the stories is enough. If you don't believe in God (which he doesn't seem to by the looks of it) and don't practice or go to church (which i don't think he does) and call yourself Christian, i think your just tossing words around.
yeah i agree
He never talks about it from a personal perspective, though. He's giving the psychology textbook answer. We don't know what he practices.
No one should believe in God if he's put in the same category as supernatural "or anything like that". I don't see the issue in not believing there's a man in the sky and literal inferno deep in the core of the earth. That is not a "true" believer but arguably a naive, limited one. You can't learn so much if you only read it literally, with all its misinterpretations, eh?
Faith is why a gymnast can do flips on a balance beam. Practice is how a gymnast gets faith.
So, faith = confidence?
No. Faith is NOT required, ever.
Lol. Blind faith is not required.
Brandoregularo Blind faith is foolishness and arrogance. Practice + Faith = Confidence
My view on this:
Practice develop competence which feeds confidence...
Faith is a kind of inner knowing..that is governing/drives behaviour....not to be mistaken as Courage..
(Self-)Confidence push to far = arrogance
Talking about conduct..I believe Jesus is the smartest of you all because he said, father forgive them because they do not know.
What a great conduct! It would be peace on earth if we were able to forgive everybody.
How are we not able to create our own values? Jordon did not trully define that we do not have the capacity and yet there have many many times throughout history that has been proven that we do and we are. One needs just go and study a bit if group dynamics to know that we are completely capable of creating value systems irrelevant and separate to a "God" entity.
A yearning need to fill a moral or existential vortex does not make an ancient apocryphal, obviously entirely human created, book true in any sense.
Faith in God as preached by Judaism, Christianity and Islam, has a real problem. For though the tree types of morality started out striving to achieve true faith, they have evolved into a dead creed, as their pride driven concept of reality is that faith is achieved by either good thoughts or good works. But, faith is the act of creating a grateful contrite heart and in all the writings of the three great religions, gratitude is too self-effacing and humiliating a thing to mention.
#BricksOfFaith
Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
The context is talking about people in tribulation, talking about being saved flesh wise, not soul..
once saved always saved
He that beliveth on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
@@lazarus5603 hey: I was hoping you could help me a bit. I've seen a few of your comments on this video and it seems that you believe a person can be saved without much (or any) "fruit" (which some people would call works). Other people I've heard from would say that unless you keep growing in faith, and ultimately are prepared to die as a loving-martyr at some point you are not saved (the path is narrow, and Jesus doesn't want any 'fair weather' friends).
I'm really struggling with trying to figure out which of the two interpretations are correct. On the one hand, there is no way I could honestly say that I'm prepared to die as a martyr today, and thus I should give up; yet nonetheless I don't feel it's right to walk away from what I feel are truths I see from the bible. On the other hand, If a person can feel reasonably assured about salvation even if they never grow into being a martyr, I wouldn't want a "lower bar" to be an excuse for me to be complacent and not to try and grow as much as I can.
Any words you have to share to clarify would be appreciated.
@@verlengel1257
Yea I believe a person can be saved simply through the act of believing, well I didnt always believe that back in time I used to think me being obedient and so on determines the fact of wheter I stay saved or not, but eventually I figured thats simply not logical and not possible.
Scripture about your works/salvation and my commentary :
Rom 3,23-24
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
see freely by his grace, solely by his doing, we cant add to his already finished work, that would rather be blasphemous and indeed it is.
Now u may ask, "so I can do what I want?" not exactly, youre however without a doubt born again and thus past hell or can u be unborn in your flesh and go back into your mothers womb ?
1.Peter 1,23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and *abideth for ever*.
Okay so back to the punishments you may receive as believer according to scripture
Hebrews 12,7
If ye endure chastening(punishment), God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
So God can punish us belivers but not with Hell, more like not having his blessings and may even worse things than that but thats all on this earth just imagine father and son, the son will always have that same father, no matter what he does, that doesnt mean there isnt any other consequences.
I understand you dont wanna believe that "its so easy" thats what the bondage of Religion does, and so sadly a lot of people doubt Jesus really died for all sins past present future .. and wanna add to his work.
And theres many scripture nailing this point down especially in the Book of John which I recommend highly to read for yourself, another tip dont look at the parables at first , just look at the clear scripture and from their build your foundation and understanding of parables and so on, people get confused on those very quickly.
Random other clear salvation scriptures :
John 3,15-18
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
notice "whosoever believeth" meaning "everyone believing" not "the people with good works believing"
Rom 4,5-8
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that * justifieth the ungodly*, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom *God imputeth righteousness without works* , Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Eph 2,8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
notice how it says gift, now imagine I gift you a phone, and 1 week later you did something rude to me so now I demand the phone back, was it really a gift then ?
If its a gift its fully yours now. If its not I lied when I said its a gift.
In conclusion : Your works matter, but not in the scope of salvation, to get salvation and have salvation you simply need to believe (put your trust ) in the Gospel which is Christ being nailed on the cross for the sins of the whole world whether they are not born yet or dead already, being dead for 3 days and rising from the dead, hope that helps
I know how the situation youre in feels haha
@@lazarus5603 interesting. So I have one question then in light of what you've said. Do you need to put your trust in God, or do you just gradually find yourself finding yourself trusting, having faith, in God, unbenouncst to yourself? Is salvation predetermined, or is free will involved? Is it just involved insofar as how your life in this world is concerned, or does free will affect salvation? I guess it's kind of a 'arminian' or 'calvinist' question.
@@verlengel1257 I'd add John 6:28-29 it definitely brings something to the discussion.
For your question on free will vs "pre-destination" I like to look at it that way:
God knows where you're eventually going in a timeless manner because he's timeless and omniscient. BUT even if God knows it (including way before your existence), your choice HAS to be acted out and exist "somewhere" in reality. That "somewhere" is here on earth during your life. It's a genuine free choice, otherwise we wouldn't be there.
So it's not incompatible. Both statements are valid even if I'd personally rename "pre-destination" as "ever-destination".
I think William Lane Craig and many other theologians and pastors and priests etc. would completely disagree. In that case, can we say this is meaningfully Christian? Isn't it defining God away? Peterson is an atheist that doesn't want to give up on Christianity. But that's fine because so is his audience.
thats what muslims believe (faith is increased through deeds and actions of good and obedience to allah not having arguments with your inner consciousness)
Isn't faith just belief without evidence? You know, epistemology?
Faith, by definition, is: Belief without evidence, especially in a religious sense. Isn't there anything you can take based on faith? People in the comments are saying that faith is required to do anything, in which case it would be confidence, but we're talking about genuine belief. Faith is completely ridiculous and undeserving of being a virtue. I don't have faith in gravity, or that my phone will turn on, I can say that will happen by induction (it's happened the last million times, it's nonsensical for it to stop now).
Nope Yes Does any person of faith agree with your definition? No. Congratulations, you won an argument by tautology.
I'm sorry? What's your definition then, if no religious people agree with the dictionary definition. My argument was that faith is belief without evidence, yet evidence is needed for beliefs, therefore faith is incorrect. In other words "have faith and just believe" is ridiculous. The tautology isn't the focus of the argument.
You say faith = belief without evidence, well thats wrong
belief without evidence = blind faith
1. Definition to faith :
confidence or trust in a person or thing:
Multiple definitions are listed, and it's highly misleading for you to just mention the first.The other definition is this:
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
"bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"
As you can clearly see, it has to do with religion. We're talking about religious faith, not confidence in general. It also says "based on spiritual conviction rather than proof", meaning faith is just believing. You could take any position based on faith, you could believe in Zeus, you could believe in Odin, you could believe in anything. Religious faith is blind faith, so I am correct.
Faith is only useful when you believe in things that are real and act out the best version of nature’s reality. I’m not a slave to any professed God. I believe in myself. You can believe in anything you want but if you don’t believe in yourself first then your life is a waste.
How can you be certain that god does or does not exist? Certainty can be the death of open mindedness.
But if people invented the Bible then we are listening to people so I guess you have to belive in the literal Christian god right?
nope search for the true word of god this might help:
ua-cam.com/video/fGUkIMSy0zk/v-deo.html
... "he believed that human beings would have to create their own values"..... there is no god... in fact human beings did create their own values.we create our values daily if not from minute to minute.
No. We can't create our own values because we can't even fight our own impulses. We rediscover them. That was Jung's great insight.
well you can't create your values because you gave away your brain.