Excellent approach using the dial indicator. I also recently rebuilt my z axis and used a dial indicator to compare the before and after. using test prints can be difficult because the print quality is affected by many other factors.
I've been using pom anti-backlash nuts for a while. I switched due to noise on my ender 5 plus caused by the brass nuts. I stopped having noise issues and printing continues without problems. I now upgrade all my printers with them wither needed or not. Cheap and effective.
I use a 4 leadscrew setup on my corexy printer, steel leadscews with POM nuts. The normal brass nuts have some play, as where the POM nuts seems to 'clamp' the leadscrew better, so it acts as a anti back lash nut. Because the tight fit, there even seems to be a increase of resistance however..
I ordered one of these from the same vendor months ago. Both lead screws arrived with the coating scraped off one side. It actually made my issues worse. Make sure to inspect your lead screws if you order these.
Great timing, just stumbled on the ptfe lead screws. Love the data driven approach. I wonder how hard it would be to get a manufacturer to produce consistent coatings and how much that would drive up price?
To be honest I have no idea. The problem is that each of them must be inspected, which would be the main factor of cost increase. Plus max allowable coating inconsistency tolerances must be specified so that you could know what to expect.
I think it is no matter what kind of lead screw to use. If there is no any backlash, you can use any lead screw and any nuts (better use anti backlash nuts). The speed of the z movements so slow, so I think it is only promo in using lead screws with Teflon....
I have a prusa mk3 clone with metal leadscrews and petg printed nuts, they've been working for 2 years and didn't wear at all, producing excellent quality prints. I did have to dial those nuts to be snug fit tho.
Prusa have been using POM nuts on their z-axes for years. They don't use TC lead screws but the millions of hours of operation of Prusa printers show that TC is not a significant benefit. Save your money and just buy the nuts. And BTW I am not a Prusa fanboi. 😊
Yeah, but the funny part is that most printers still use brass nuts. Something like this makes me feel that most companies have no idea what they are doing. No one doing proper testing and just copying each other without knowing what is important. :D
The pom nut is worth it, less sound when fast moving Z, wear is not an issue for me as I don't print every day and they are cheap enough to replace them often. Brass always required to be greased (used a teflon spray) but over time, the grease/oil is gone or gets on your hands, build plate,... Note that use rods with 2mm pitch as it's easier on the steppers from a load point of view (also use 0.9° steppers)
you could automate a precision lapping process to improve the surface finish and even out the coating. i like the concept, it just needs to be perfected. thanks for another great video!
You are getting more irregularity from the POM wheel motion system then from the lead screw. If the comparison was made on a ridged frame with linier rails (variables that need minimized) then you could compare lead screws and lead nuts (standard and preloaded) then also ball screws. But without rigidity in the frame and no linier rails it is pointless! But a++ for you effort and video!!!
Ok so I just wanted to add my own experience with Teflon coated leadscrews. I ordered 2 for a dual Z. First off just because they are self lubricating doesn’t mean they don’t need lubricated. It’s recommended to clean all surfaces with a CLP or similar oil prior to use. I’m sure dry lube works as well but anything is better than nothing. Secondly the PFTE coatings were so thick they didn’t fit and needed sanded down to fit pulleys and such. They both were bent significantly more than the stock ender 3 lead screw and ultimately they sit unused in my closet for the reasons listed above. However regardless I will be swapping to ball screws as soon as I modify your amazing ball screw part! Btw I’ve shown that video to everyone I know I think it’s fantastic 😊!
Sorry we bought the same ones lol 😂. One issue I didn’t run into but was a concern. The amount of torque produced by my Z axis is definitely enough to destroy or deform the delrin parts. I never ran into this issue but at least with brass nuts if you crash the Z axis the motors stall because they can’t stretch the brass. I have been using anti backlash nuts for a while now and they seem to work wonders.
Whoah… minor improvements on a ball screw? You more than doubled the usable speed of the Z axis and got perfect Z hop with that upgrade! Now I want to know what you consider major improvement lol. Keep up the amazing work!
One last thing. They’re not threaded M3 because you instantly strip the treads of the plastic tightening the nut. At least that’s what happened to mine lol.
Can you make a video about getting good eccentricity on lead screw couplers? Which coupler is best? Do they come with good eccentricity? Can you improve it somehow? how can you alight a lead screw perfectly. This is such a good and important topic.
Have you considered a dry PTFE lubricant on the lead screw? The type you would use on components like sliding doors? Would be interesting to see how well they work with POM nuts since presumably they could coat the leadscrew more evenly/thinly compared to the TC lead screw
3:45 I wonder what could be causing the artifact near the middle of the benchi, taking into accound that you changed the Z-screws, is that due to some other issue on the gantry wheels or something like that? I am trying my best to get rid of a similar issue on my old CR-10, but found no luck.
Yeah, the brass nut with lubrication should last way longer. The thing that I am afraid the most is POM nut threads wearing all the way and gantry crashing down on a single Z axis lead screw. ;D
Awsome video man keep it up! wondering if you run klipper on the printer? if so how do you level the bed ive just been homing it and moving the x and y axis in mainsail and adjusting it but is there gcode or something that does this
I do not run klipper at this moment, but there must be some scripts for that. I have been focusing on mechanical part of 3d printers, however there will be klipper orientated videos in the future.
What's your thoughts on Oldham couplings ? I just changed over my heavily modded (including all linear rails, and extended height) Ender 3 to Oldham couplings with POM nuts (not the anti-backlash nuts), and PLUM shaft couplings. I'm still getting everything dialed in, but preliminary testing is showing considerably less "Z related" issues. My lead screws appear to be very straight, but I can see the Oldham couplings moving VERY slightly as the gantry raises and lowers. I'm excited to get everything dialed in, and see what the end results are.
Too bulky, so it resuires modding and I ordered mine but they had a lot of slack between them. They are not precision machined as claimed and for the price they can't be neither. I'm going for the wobble x system when I can't stand the z-banding enymore
Looking at you just nonchalantly touching greased screw with bare hands, haha 😬 I always very gingerly move the Z manually if I need to, because argh, grease. Belted Z is in my plans for that alone, so maybe a POM nut is an easier and simple solution until I get to that.
I saw a video where there was also a guy touching his lead screws bare handed and he suggested using a rag or even a paper towel to wipe your fingers free from the grease imparted from the lead screw and I was blown away. I bet you could even just use a piece of toilet paper in a pinch. I found this to work so well that I've even started using rags and paper towels to wipe many other substances off of my hands when handwashing is too much of an inconvenience or fuss. Give it a try, you'll wonder why everyone doesn't employ this tactic for similar situations in daily life.
I don't know if if this is the place for it, but can someone please confirm what the EXCACT threads that these lead screws are? I've seen some call them TR8 screws, TR8x8 (Fusion 360 only has TR 8x1.5), and TR8 lead 4 start. I have checked on a ton of different sites from rando hobby spaces, thread tutorial sites, to even sellers like Amazon, yet NONE of them either tell me what I need ton know, or agree with what the thread for the SAME lead screws are. I thought that maybe UA-cam would have the answer, but idk. Best I can come up with is that the standard lead screws used in 3D printing are some kind of TR8 screw with 4 separate threads. I would ASSUME it's proper name would be, "TR8x4" because it's an M8 Trapazoid screw with 4 leads, but I can't confirm it anywhere. Much thanks to anyone who responds.
I think the nut is not supposed to be tight so it can compensate for irregularities or a bent lead screw. I had terrible z quality in my ender 3v2 and it got much much much better when I loosened it. Maybe give it a try!
In general, you are right. It helps mostly to deal with a misaligned lead screw and nut placement on the gantry. But the printer that I tested on had the perfect alignment, which is why I could tighten it. However, it is my bad for showing that because 99% of printers on the market have misaligned lead screws.
@@PrintingPerspective I just throw flex shaft couplers on them to help out with that. Maybe leaving them both a little floating would help balance the misalignment that cant be fixed with shims.
@@hansoncrack Yeah, I use those where it is impossible to align the lead screw. I prefer inserting a steel ball of 6-7mm between the motor shaft and the lead screw and then slightly stretching the flexible coupler when securing it in place. This results in no Z-axis bouncing and still gives the ability for a lead screw to tilt.
Doesn't matter what material you use, u WILL have to lubricate it for longer life span. Brass and bronze has low friction too, that's why they are used as bearing material.
I would say the POM nut and a metal lead screw wouldn't need lubrication if you take the POM nut as a consumable item, my understanding is the lead screw being metal and the nut being brass is the same way too, since brass is such a soft material, if you gotta replace it anyway, why not use POM and eliminate the lubrication.
Any metal will wear the Teflon coating very fast. Just use POM nut with regular lead screw. From my tests and the comments who used it for a while it is the best option.
I mean, it is very easy to scratch the Teflon-coated lead screw (at least the one that I tested) with any metal object. If you are dealing with a lot of loads your best option would be to use a good quality grease that is rated for those loads or maybe even think about a ballscrew.
just use pom nuts, much more tighter. brass wears fast and you need good machining, which you dont have with chinese 1-2$ parts. if you have elefant foot you cant get rid off, it may be wear & wobble with inconsistent z movement expecially on first layers. 0.2mm was 0.16mm for me on the forst 8mm, pom nut fixed it.
@@PrintingPerspective It's been a few hundred hours of printing. I still spray the leadscrews with PTFE spray. No noticeable wear that I've seen. And if they wear down, they're like $3 a piece.
I did want to comment after seeing your benchy both before and after. Your K-factor / pressure advance isn't as good as it could be and is causing an accentuation of your hull lines and similar situations.
By the way why are people even using a lead screw at all? Why not just use belts with linear rails? It works with X and Y and is common with delta printers. That seems a lot cheaper and simpler to me.
@@PrintingPerspective That seems like a solvable problem. Depending on the performance/results it might still be worth it. Not to mention that double and especially triple z motors could probably add enough resistance to stop that from happening.
I will someday make this mod and compare it to the regular lead screw and ball screw version. The simplest way to combat "the drop" would be just to use reduction gears or belts and use a bigger stepper. And if that won't work, then things will get more complicated.
Teflon coated leadscrews are a waste of time and money, they are made from regular leadscrews and nuts that are made with exact tolerances they are then coated and that coating then reduces that tolerance. I will stick to regular leadscrews and brass leadscrew nuts and lubrication.
I mean... The thumbnail clearly shows lead screw and it says Teflon Coated with even an arrow pointing. Personally, I don't see how tungsten carbide lead screw would make any sense. I am not sure why you're boooo'ing lol.
Bro, I don't even have a 3D printer or CNC, but still watching. Cause your vids rocks! :))
Thanks :)
Excellent approach using the dial indicator. I also recently rebuilt my z axis and used a dial indicator to compare the before and after. using test prints can be difficult because the print quality is affected by many other factors.
I couldn't agree more. The best thing we can do is at least try to minimize all those other variables.
I've been using pom anti-backlash nuts for a while. I switched due to noise on my ender 5 plus caused by the brass nuts. I stopped having noise issues and printing continues without problems. I now upgrade all my printers with them wither needed or not. Cheap and effective.
I didn't expected much from them, but honestly I was surprised how well they perform especially considering the low cost.
Hi! I can't seem to find a website where you can order anti-backlash nuts with 2 starts. Can you send me a link where you've bought them?
Good stuff. I've got anti-backlash POM nuts on 2 printers. They're great, especially since I'm lazy about lubing Z screws.
I use a 4 leadscrew setup on my corexy printer, steel leadscews with POM nuts. The normal brass nuts have some play, as where the POM nuts seems to 'clamp' the leadscrew better, so it acts as a anti back lash nut. Because the tight fit, there even seems to be a increase of resistance however..
I ordered one of these from the same vendor months ago. Both lead screws arrived with the coating scraped off one side.
It actually made my issues worse. Make sure to inspect your lead screws if you order these.
Great timing, just stumbled on the ptfe lead screws. Love the data driven approach. I wonder how hard it would be to get a manufacturer to produce consistent coatings and how much that would drive up price?
To be honest I have no idea. The problem is that each of them must be inspected, which would be the main factor of cost increase. Plus max allowable coating inconsistency tolerances must be specified so that you could know what to expect.
I've been using POM nuts with standard metal lead screws for ages. Works pretty wel, doesn't need any lubircation, and quieter than metal nuts.
I think it is no matter what kind of lead screw to use. If there is no any backlash, you can use any lead screw and any nuts (better use anti backlash nuts). The speed of the z movements so slow, so I think it is only promo in using lead screws with Teflon....
I have a prusa mk3 clone with metal leadscrews and petg printed nuts, they've been working for 2 years and didn't wear at all, producing excellent quality prints. I did have to dial those nuts to be snug fit tho.
Prusa have been using POM nuts on their z-axes for years. They don't use TC lead screws but the millions of hours of operation of Prusa printers show that TC is not a significant benefit. Save your money and just buy the nuts. And BTW I am not a Prusa fanboi. 😊
Yeah, but the funny part is that most printers still use brass nuts. Something like this makes me feel that most companies have no idea what they are doing. No one doing proper testing and just copying each other without knowing what is important. :D
The pom nut is worth it, less sound when fast moving Z, wear is not an issue for me as I don't print every day and they are cheap enough to replace them often. Brass always required to be greased (used a teflon spray) but over time, the grease/oil is gone or gets on your hands, build plate,... Note that use rods with 2mm pitch as it's easier on the steppers from a load point of view (also use 0.9° steppers)
you could automate a precision lapping process to improve the surface finish and even out the coating. i like the concept, it just needs to be perfected. thanks for another great video!
I’ve got some POM nuts and Teflon leaf screws on my voron trident and they’ve been going great
You are getting more irregularity from the POM wheel motion system then from the lead screw. If the comparison was made on a ridged frame with linier rails (variables that need minimized) then you could compare lead screws and lead nuts (standard and preloaded) then also ball screws. But without rigidity in the frame and no linier rails it is pointless! But a++ for you effort and video!!!
Ok so I just wanted to add my own experience with Teflon coated leadscrews. I ordered 2 for a dual Z. First off just because they are self lubricating doesn’t mean they don’t need lubricated. It’s recommended to clean all surfaces with a CLP or similar oil prior to use. I’m sure dry lube works as well but anything is better than nothing. Secondly the PFTE coatings were so thick they didn’t fit and needed sanded down to fit pulleys and such. They both were bent significantly more than the stock ender 3 lead screw and ultimately they sit unused in my closet for the reasons listed above. However regardless I will be swapping to ball screws as soon as I modify your amazing ball screw part! Btw I’ve shown that video to everyone I know I think it’s fantastic 😊!
Sorry we bought the same ones lol 😂. One issue I didn’t run into but was a concern. The amount of torque produced by my Z axis is definitely enough to destroy or deform the delrin parts. I never ran into this issue but at least with brass nuts if you crash the Z axis the motors stall because they can’t stretch the brass. I have been using anti backlash nuts for a while now and they seem to work wonders.
Whoah… minor improvements on a ball screw? You more than doubled the usable speed of the Z axis and got perfect Z hop with that upgrade! Now I want to know what you consider major improvement lol. Keep up the amazing work!
I’d really like to see if a brass nut will wear down the PTFE or if it provides better results as it wears down the uneven surface.
One last thing. They’re not threaded M3 because you instantly strip the treads of the plastic tightening the nut. At least that’s what happened to mine lol.
I love the ballscrew upgrade so much. The z hops are insanely fast, I just love watching it hopping lol
Can you make a video about getting good eccentricity on lead screw couplers? Which coupler is best? Do they come with good eccentricity? Can you improve it somehow? how can you alight a lead screw perfectly. This is such a good and important topic.
I've just got POM nut in the mail! Since I need to fix the printer anyway, I may just as well install it at the same time.
I changed pitch size with teflin lead screw. I'm happy with it. Note that you need to change stepps in marline to use it in that case
Have you considered a dry PTFE lubricant on the lead screw? The type you would use on components like sliding doors? Would be interesting to see how well they work with POM nuts since presumably they could coat the leadscrew more evenly/thinly compared to the TC lead screw
Will have to find Pom nut for my lead screw and maybe anti back lash but a Pom nut seems like the way to go
PFTE Grease, have a 10+ year old Replicator Dual with 50K hours of print time on it and its lead screws still have nearly no slop 😁
I no joke thought the thumbnail was a Katana 🤣😂🤘
🥳😂
Ha ha!
I’ve never even heard of these Teflon screws. I really liked the ballscrew video though, seems to be a lot of quality there.
Yeah, z-hops are insane on that printer, love it :)
3:45 I wonder what could be causing the artifact near the middle of the benchi, taking into accound that you changed the Z-screws, is that due to some other issue on the gantry wheels or something like that? I am trying my best to get rid of a similar issue on my old CR-10, but found no luck.
Very interesting. Great video! I will stick to my brass nuts and lithium grease as lube.
Yeah, the brass nut with lubrication should last way longer. The thing that I am afraid the most is POM nut threads wearing all the way and gantry crashing down on a single Z axis lead screw. ;D
Got some already... good quailty.
Awsome video man keep it up! wondering if you run klipper on the printer? if so how do you level the bed ive just been homing it and moving the x and y axis in mainsail and adjusting it but is there gcode or something that does this
I do not run klipper at this moment, but there must be some scripts for that. I have been focusing on mechanical part of 3d printers, however there will be klipper orientated videos in the future.
lifting mechanism. Modern DC motors have power.
I learned that moderation is important in determining the quality of a work. ♬
Perhaps the brass nut on the coated leadscrew could wear the coating smooth, or off if overdone.
What's your thoughts on Oldham couplings ? I just changed over my heavily modded (including all linear rails, and extended height) Ender 3 to Oldham couplings with POM nuts (not the anti-backlash nuts), and PLUM shaft couplings. I'm still getting everything dialed in, but preliminary testing is showing considerably less "Z related" issues. My lead screws appear to be very straight, but I can see the Oldham couplings moving VERY slightly as the gantry raises and lowers. I'm excited to get everything dialed in, and see what the end results are.
Too bulky, so it resuires modding and I ordered mine but they had a lot of slack between them. They are not precision machined as claimed and for the price they can't be neither. I'm going for the wobble x system when I can't stand the z-banding enymore
Looking at you just nonchalantly touching greased screw with bare hands, haha 😬 I always very gingerly move the Z manually if I need to, because argh, grease.
Belted Z is in my plans for that alone, so maybe a POM nut is an easier and simple solution until I get to that.
POM nuts are actually great, it is such an inexpensive upgrade, whenever I can this is the first mod that I do on non-enclosed printers.
I saw a video where there was also a guy touching his lead screws bare handed and he suggested using a rag or even a paper towel to wipe your fingers free from the grease imparted from the lead screw and I was blown away. I bet you could even just use a piece of toilet paper in a pinch. I found this to work so well that I've even started using rags and paper towels to wipe many other substances off of my hands when handwashing is too much of an inconvenience or fuss. Give it a try, you'll wonder why everyone doesn't employ this tactic for similar situations in daily life.
Awsome video! But you should’ve included anti backlash nuts as well!
Anti backlash nuts vs regular nuts is the topic on its own. Maybe I will make a video about it.
I don't know if if this is the place for it, but can someone please confirm what the EXCACT threads that these lead screws are? I've seen some call them TR8 screws, TR8x8 (Fusion 360 only has TR 8x1.5), and TR8 lead 4 start. I have checked on a ton of different sites from rando hobby spaces, thread tutorial sites, to even sellers like Amazon, yet NONE of them either tell me what I need ton know, or agree with what the thread for the SAME lead screws are. I thought that maybe UA-cam would have the answer, but idk.
Best I can come up with is that the standard lead screws used in 3D printing are some kind of TR8 screw with 4 separate threads. I would ASSUME it's proper name would be, "TR8x4" because it's an M8 Trapazoid screw with 4 leads, but I can't confirm it anywhere.
Much thanks to anyone who responds.
I think the nut is not supposed to be tight so it can compensate for irregularities or a bent lead screw. I had terrible z quality in my ender 3v2 and it got much much much better when I loosened it. Maybe give it a try!
In general, you are right. It helps mostly to deal with a misaligned lead screw and nut placement on the gantry. But the printer that I tested on had the perfect alignment, which is why I could tighten it. However, it is my bad for showing that because 99% of printers on the market have misaligned lead screws.
@@PrintingPerspective I just throw flex shaft couplers on them to help out with that. Maybe leaving them both a little floating would help balance the misalignment that cant be fixed with shims.
@@hansoncrack Yeah, I use those where it is impossible to align the lead screw. I prefer inserting a steel ball of 6-7mm between the motor shaft and the lead screw and then slightly stretching the flexible coupler when securing it in place. This results in no Z-axis bouncing and still gives the ability for a lead screw to tilt.
@@PrintingPerspective whats the purpose of the steel ball
Well at least in theory, it gives the ability for a lead screw to easily tilt and even roll/move side to side because it is on a ball.
Doesn't matter what material you use, u WILL have to lubricate it for longer life span. Brass and bronze has low friction too, that's why they are used as bearing material.
I would say the POM nut and a metal lead screw wouldn't need lubrication if you take the POM nut as a consumable item, my understanding is the lead screw being metal and the nut being brass is the same way too, since brass is such a soft material, if you gotta replace it anyway, why not use POM and eliminate the lubrication.
Definetely will buy a couple...
Why not test the teflon leadscrew with the bras nut ? I was thinking about going in this direction for my build, any advice ?
Any metal will wear the Teflon coating very fast. Just use POM nut with regular lead screw. From my tests and the comments who used it for a while it is the best option.
@@PrintingPerspective I've got to use brass nut as I am dealing with heavy load, so you say the teflon will wear off...
I mean, it is very easy to scratch the Teflon-coated lead screw (at least the one that I tested) with any metal object. If you are dealing with a lot of loads your best option would be to use a good quality grease that is rated for those loads or maybe even think about a ballscrew.
Next try belted z and compare the prints!
Well, this idea is on my list and it is only a question of time when I will make the video about it. :)
Kp3s ball screw wheres the link i would like to try :o
bit.ly/KP3S_Z_LR_BS This is the file, but it is designed to be machined from aluminum.
just use pom nuts, much more tighter. brass wears fast and you need good machining, which you dont have with chinese 1-2$ parts. if you have elefant foot you cant get rid off, it may be wear & wobble with inconsistent z movement expecially on first layers. 0.2mm was 0.16mm for me on the forst 8mm, pom nut fixed it.
How did you make this lamp? 6:04
www.instructables.com/Super-Bright-Variable-Brightness-LED-PANEL-CRI-90/
Lookup IGUS, as their material has a higher lubricity.
Yeah, but the cost makes no sense, it's like ~$15 per nut.
Great video, very informative.
I have anti-backlash POM nuts on all my printers just because.... why not?
How about their longevity?
@@PrintingPerspective It's been a few hundred hours of printing. I still spray the leadscrews with PTFE spray. No noticeable wear that I've seen. And if they wear down, they're like $3 a piece.
POM nut eliminated endplay/lash for me
great topic, thanks 👍
Creative video, thanks :)
I did want to comment after seeing your benchy both before and after. Your K-factor / pressure advance isn't as good as it could be and is causing an accentuation of your hull lines and similar situations.
Just use lithium grease and more importantly make sure the lead screw is straight.
By the way why are people even using a lead screw at all? Why not just use belts with linear rails? It works with X and Y and is common with delta printers. That seems a lot cheaper and simpler to me.
Mostly because of the gantry dropping down when Z motor is off.
@@PrintingPerspective That seems like a solvable problem. Depending on the performance/results it might still be worth it. Not to mention that double and especially triple z motors could probably add enough resistance to stop that from happening.
I will someday make this mod and compare it to the regular lead screw and ball screw version. The simplest way to combat "the drop" would be just to use reduction gears or belts and use a bigger stepper. And if that won't work, then things will get more complicated.
Great video!
Thank you!
Teflon coated leadscrews are a waste of time and money, they are made from regular leadscrews and nuts that are made with exact tolerances they are then coated and that coating then reduces that tolerance.
I will stick to regular leadscrews and brass leadscrew nuts and lubrication.
Fair enough.
Bariz bir fark yok aynı değişen hiçbir şey yok
Belted Z FTW
I will definitely make a belted Z vs regular Z axis sometime in the future. I am way too curious to see the proper comparison results. :)
What?
FIT a SINGLE start Z screw and a POM nut.... anything less is simply a stupid fitment.
You know what's also kinda stupid? :D Stating "the only way" to do it and not explaining why. It is hard to take it seriously. Cheers :)
I thought TC was for tungsten carbide, boooo...
I mean... The thumbnail clearly shows lead screw and it says Teflon Coated with even an arrow pointing. Personally, I don't see how tungsten carbide lead screw would make any sense. I am not sure why you're boooo'ing lol.