Something most don't know about stepper motors: Inside them is a spring-washer type pre-tensioner, it preloads the motor and keeps it from rattling if you shake it, guess what side it's usually on though? The bottom(bushing upwards when used in the z-axis like this), your gantry weight might be sufficient to deflect this spring and cause irregularities if things are heavy enough. You can tell by watching the coupler while giving it a little push down against. Your thrust bearing is probably fixing this. On mine I took the motor apart and relocated the spring to the top so it pushes downwards instead, resulting is a notably more stable Z-reference.
Genius! This is a great tip, it very noticeably reduced Z banding for me and it's so easy to test if your motor has a spring-washer configured this way. Thank you!!!
@@projectartichoke Awesome! I'm very glad to hear that random info was actually useful to someone else as well. (had notifications off, but better late than never.) I've actually never seen ANYONE cover this detail at all, and it's pretty easy to overlook or never know about.
@@moodberry Very late to reply, but you can check for it by literally pushing down on the shaft of a stepper that's pointed up, if it visibly deflects down into the motor and it's being used on a Z-drive for anything supporting weight.. then that basically means it can get forced down like a spring and cause uneven settling heights. Visually it looks just like a washer but has a 'ripple' indented into it, so it isn't flat.
I just want to concur with many countless other people with the production quality of this video and how much it helps. Thank you for your time as I know it was very time-consuming.
No, it's material dependent. Stainless steel, titanium, glass for instance aren't "self lubricating" no matter how they wear. Brass, copper, white metal alloys are, because unlike those, they shed flat plates that slide across each other. Same for plastics, nylon, ptfe, UHMW, POM/delrin contain internal lubricants that are only released with wear, some are even impregnated with oil, they all need an initial break in before this happens. PLA, ABS to name but two, do not.
@@m3chanist Wh "no" , what i say wrong? Of course worn material can be either a lubricant or an abrasive, both is possible. Besides very confused comment. There aren't "internal lubricants" in the plastics mentioned, it's purely low surface energy causing the material to be low friction, chemically induced property. PTFE PA etc are not impregnated with oil.
@SianaGearz I didn't say they were, I said they can be and are in a variety of engineering applications. I'm sorry for your confusion, read more carefully. What you said that was wrong was that material lost to wear acts as a kind of lubricant, as I pointed out, that is only jn some cases, that it is material specific, not a blanket catchall.
@@m3chanist they were talking about "Self lubricating" materials specifically mentioned in the video, not all materials. they were and still are correct.
I got a used ender 3 Max. I was loving it up until one day I thought it was doing layer shifts. It's getting really frustrating. I kept doing different things to try to figure out what is happening. Watching this video I think it is z banding. Im so excited to get home and try some of the things in the video.
@13:30 I'm rebuilding my CR-10 and went with the oldham coupler setup from this video. Anyway, I lubed the threads of my POM nut as well as the oldham coupler, and I'm noticing the gantry slipping or skipping (??) as I manually move the gantry up, by turning the lead screw using the motor coupler on the bottom. That may not be the answer to that question, but it's a new issue that I now have to resolve.
I hope you're getting paid in some way shape or form for this Awesome content! Thank you so much. Learned a lot. Picked up an Anycubic Chiron for $40, of course with issues, but this will help me get closer to more quality prints. Thanks!
Just tried oldham couplers, and they completely fixed it. It did allow me to see that there is a slight inward slant of the lead screw, so I'll have to print motor brackets to help position it correctly. But even now, the prints come out perfect!
Bro Im not that guy but Subbed! This was perfect! Literally every second. Simple enough but yet deep enough your dont dive off the cliff in detail you get lost on another subject. Owe you big for this one
🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:23 *🛠️ Z banding is a common issue in 3D printers caused by mechanical problems with Gantry and lead screw.* 01:50 *🔩 Z binding can cause ribbing in prints due to missteps on z-axis lead screws.* 03:43 *🧽 Regular maintenance like cleaning and lubricating lead screws is essential to minimize Z banding.* 07:26 *🔧 Leveling Gantry and ensuring motor mounts are square can help reduce Z banding.* 09:33 *📏 Ensuring lead screws align with motor couplers is crucial to prevent Z banding.* 13:18 *⚙️ Consider the type of nuts used (brass vs. palm) and lubrication to reduce Z banding.* 16:54 *🏗️ Lead screw covers can protect the top of the lead screw while allowing rotation.* 18:49 *💲 Consider cost-effective solutions like oldham couplers and flexible couplers to address Z banding before opting for more expensive options.* Made with HARPA AI
i have a og cr10 and found pretty much the same thing. the things that helped the most was oldham connector that was filed(mine did not slide smooth) and lubed and getting rid of the top guide. plum coupler didnt change anything for me and antibacklash made things worse. i got new leadscrews after the oldham and i so disernable improvements. only other thing that helped along the way was replaceing the stock extruder with a direct drive and a mains bed heater with insolation. going to give the motor mounts a try because why not.
Paused at the 3min mark to just say that the editing of this video is absolutely superb! 👌🏼 Informative and entertaining. Thanks to some of the new gen printers, I certainly dont miss the days of z-banding, gantry leveling, aluminum extrusions and roller wheels.
Great advice ! I solved the leadscrew issues by, THROWING THEM AWAY and replacing them with a belted Z mod. Z hopping is MEGA accurate now and my supports just snap clean off. Next thing I will do is install linear rails because those POM wheels are a huge problem aswell....
I love watching people fix things or put things together. When I tell you I have no idea what this is; nor do I actually need to know this info. It’s intriguing & the quality is *chef’s kiss* though 😂
EXCELLENT video my guy! I have 2 Ender 3’s and I have dual lead screws on both of them along with direct drives! You have explained what I have been having trouble and have noticed! I have noticed the screws are really not lined up properly, and it’s just a few mm if that. And that really makes a difference. The trouble with belts is that they are like chains on a bike or motorcycle. You can only tighten them so much until you’ve stretched them all you can and have to replace them. So belts (in my opinion) are not on option for me. Any way great video, subscribed!
Thanks for this video. Just ordered an oldham for my Ender 3v2 since i've had some issue with prints. After buying an orbiter 2 and setting everything right i klipper knew it was not the cause of it since it was even before new extruder and i've checked the wheels multiple times and it didn't make sense it was the X and Y since the print had lines all around and in a consistand thickness as if it squished and it would be at random it would. So hope this fixes it and maybe one day i'll upgrade to something like a RatRig
The most critical thing with leadscrew alignment is that the bearings and nut are all in *exactly* the same relative position to the linear axis the screw is driving. The screw being straight is irrelevant if the top & bottom bearings are at different distances from (or laterally to) the linear slide! That is probably why the top bearing caused problems - the opposite end was not in line with the nut, so it was causing lateral force on the nut near the ends of the travel. It applies to the industrial machine tools I work on, and equally to 3D printers or any small CNC.
Please explain the jargon. What is PID tuning please ? Palm Nuts ? PID Tuning ? We beginners need explanations of technical terms we have not heard before. Thank you !
PID tuning fine tubes the electrical current running to the thermistor, the heater for the hotend. The tuning keeps the temperature steady, so there's minimum cooling / reheating of the hotend...creating as steady a temperature as possible.
Thrust, stock coupler, oldham, fixed at top with bearing that allows slight x y movements, i get almost no banding now!!! Did all this in the last year! Good vid!
Did you have to print new motor mounts before you put the thrust bearings on and when you install the oldham couplers, you don’t need the old POM couplers (I have a CR 10 smart and I think that’s what they are) that are under the gantry anymore, correct? Thank you.
@treyduval5399 i didnt have to but the ender 3 had bad mounts so i did The oldham coupler will attach to the threaded pom attachment to the gantry I also put anti backlash nuts which was a long attachment with a spring
@@michaelmerryman577 thank you very much for responding and the help! I have purchased the anti-backlash nuts with springs and am wondering, should I put on top or under the gantry? I’ve her different opinions on it?
Note that brass oldham couples like the ones you showed aren't supposed to work well under compression, when an oldham coupler that responds well to compression is installed the lead screw isn't constrained laterally at the X axis, in those cases constraining at the top _is_ a good idea because otherwise the lead screw is underconstrained. There are bearing-based oldham-style couplers like the "wobble wings" and the suchlike that are designed to work under compression, also bear in mind that thrust bearing are great but can introduce vertical motion in the lead screw if they are not perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the lead screw, which can be tough to ensure
I wanted to thank you here. You changed my print quality. With this training you gave. Everything changed for me. I was not at all satisfied with the quality of my print. But when I did what you said. The result I got was unbelievable. My print quality has improved so much that there is no difference with resin. I would love to have a place where I could show you the results. And see how the quality is. It looks like it was taken with bamboo printers. With this tutorial, you showed me that it is possible to get a good quality print. And it is not a wish. I am very sorry that I got to know your channel earlier. I wish I had seen this video earlier. thank you. Thank you generous man. Thank you for your great advice. Please continue your work and post more tutorials. No matter how much I thank you, I have thanked you little. Thank you, kind man. thank you❤❤❤❤❤❤🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏thank you thank you
My printer is model Elegoo neptune4pro. The first time I bought it, it was of excellent quality. After a few months, the changes were applied to the print. I was disappointed. I searched everywhere. No one could help me. And they just confused me. Until I saw this video. It is not believable. But the quality of my printer is even better than the first days. All these events were for this tutorial. This video changed my printing. Thank you for this generous man. thank you
The thrust bearing is important for another reason. The motor has a spring inside of it, allowing the axle to move up and down a little. By placing the thrust bearing between the coupler and the motor body, this freedom for the lead screw to move slightly down is eliminated, and it will unlikely to move up because of gravity, but if you really want to make sure you can go overboard and put a thrust bearing at the top of the printer as well to really constrain the lead screw Z motion.
Thank you for sharing! Good idea about the thrust bearings, something I haven't tried. I recently just installed a dual Z axis stepper motor kit, the box says it's from Creality, but I'm not sure if it's authentic. Anyway, the kit I bought came with anti-backlash lead screw nuts aluminum mounts for both stepper motors. I still had to put a shim for the originally located stepper motor, but no for the other side, I'm guessing the gantry bracket for the original spot wasn't drilled properly or bent at the correct spot. When I was aligning the lead screws with the stepper motors, I left all the mounting screws and lead screw nut loose first, and also moved the X axis gantry all the way down for better alignment, I even removed the printer head so I could go as low as possible. I didn't know about the top mount could cause issues. When I installed mine, I moved the X axis gantry all the way up possible, so that the top mounts are aligned the best way possible before I tightened them in place. I might leave mine in for now, as I don't see any Z banding issues with my prints.
The #1 most thorough set of tests/results and solution options on YT. My issues are around z-binding (mainly), with no discernible pattern in the layers. It's been a total pain to trace down and I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the anti-backlash nut and sub-standard linear bearings, but good luck trying to find a set of well made bearings that are any better than what Creality uses. Again - really good video and I've subbed.
The just about to be released, Ender 3 V3 with CoreXZ kinematics seems to be a good approach with no lead screws. How would CoreXZ compare to linear rails? Of course, the Ender 3 V3 is nearly double the cost of the Ender 3 V3 SE.
You can throw 1000 dollars into precision ball screws, but your extruder is the limiting factor. Uneven extrusion is the cause of the artifacts that are non-rhythmic. A leadscrew will always give a rhythmic artifact pattern.
@@mrpawno4955calibrate your e-steps and flow rate. And maintain your machine regularly. And don’t cheap out on the maintenance and trie to keep the room where your printer is as clean as possible. That’s helps with keeping out as much dirt and debris as you can.
good video, AND, funny, I built my Prusa I3 almost entirely by myself. my Z threads are old-fashioned M5 threads and yes, they are loose at the top AND go back and forth (not extreme!) and that's why I ended up here, I still have to see what I can do about it BUT I'm in no hurry, the printer works well enough so it will get better with time! Healthy and Friendly Greetings from the Netherlands everyone! Rob
I literally fought a gantry level problem for a whole weekend, settled on using my Angle Cube, then 3 days later I found that you did the EXACT same thing.
This is an amazing video and I'm having these same issues, so I wish it could help me 😭. I'm new and have a printer without a lead screw, and I can barely get any help for it online.
Thats all fine and dandy but some Z Banding, wobble, whatever can also be caused by the wheels on the x gantry riding on the frame if they are not perfectly round. They can cause z banding, I've tested this extensitivly with my original ender 3 that didnt have duel z screws. After disabling my Z motors in the printer screen, you raise the gantry up and down with two fingers and if there is any resistance as the wheels go up and down you have an issue with a flat spot on the wheels. The issue can be very slight so you have to really get a good feel for how the wheels feel against the frame. This can happen more then not when the printer has been sitting for extended periods of time not being used, the tight wheels will deform over time against the Z extrusion frame. This can even happen when putting the printer together if care is not taken when mounting the X gantry and the wheels are grouged when fitted onto the z extrusion frame. Lead screews can be a problem but could also be other issues.
Bent lead screw itself wont deflect in travel at any noticeable rate, extremely small effect (a2 + b2 = c2). Most Z issues are simply binding from being out of square, the rest are bad PID tuning (temps jumping around) and bed bounce/vibration, mostly just on bed slingers. BUT if you have dual Z motors and there tied together with a belt and not in phase, it's better to simply unplug one if that gantry holds up when turned off. If you need both, loosen one coupler and activate the motors then level your gantry and tighten it up. That will put them in phase so that there not constantly trying to fight each other paying a back and forth tug of war. The last one, a loose carriage. The POM nuts work just fine and can be "loose" as gravity will do the job of keeping them in place, maybe if you need to print while its on it's side.. idk. The thrust bearing would compensate for bad/cheap bearings in the factor motors, but you can get nearly the same effect of the oldham with nylon washers and only tightening the brass nut so that there's no play, allowing to the stock cheap brass nut to move around in the x/y AND also wobble to play along with a bent lead screw.
what is the VREF volts for the Nema motors to work properly without loosing any step ? I read somewhere that they require 1.8 Volts in VREF which is a lot higher that what the default VREF of Ender boards like 4.2.7
the lead screw in ender 3 series is 365mm. Nema stepper motor with integrated lead screw have a max length of 350. Can these missing 15 mm be a problem ?
Do you have the new reality, V3 or did you create it yourself? I’m thinking about ditching the lead screw and going for the Z belt solution or an XY core printer
@@treyduval5399You can easily mod it yourself or convert into something like a Voron Switchwire but I'm not sure just belt drive is worth it. There's other variances in the Ender design and you should be able to get Z artifacts to a minimum. On my old E3 Pro I decided against a 2nd motor and went with belt-driven dual lead screws which is amazing as long as it's aligned perfectly. I squared the frame, secured it with stabilizer bars and checked it over with a micrometer. I use POM anti-backlash nuts (you just need POM) and swapped in PC wheels ONLY the Z-axis. Lead screws can often be found cheap if yours are visibly bent. After that the best thing to do IMO is convert it to run Klipper with a raspberry pi. I love my CoreXY printers but this workhorse is still accurate enough to keep giving it work and I mostly print ABS. Never underestimate a well-tuned Ender running Klipper.
Тоже столкнулся с такой проблемой на своем принтере. Но, проблема оказалась не в оси Z... Хотя Стефан из CNC Kitchen говорил про PID кровати, что также исправил, но основных проблем было 2 - это прецизионная настройка шагов экструдера и коэффициента потока в слайсере. Второй момент - неправильная заводская сборка колес каретки экструдера. Пересобрал по собственной методике и точность позиционирования возросла на порядок! Думаю, что простая копеечная модификация позволила довести точность такую, как для линейного рейлинга. Напишите мне в ответ, и я постараюсь дать подробный ответ как это сделать. Удачи!
In my opinion & experience as long as we let the top end hang free and allow the linear rod to hold its position. Best is increase to 10mm rod or use linear guide the Z. I use a PLA printed z Lead nut and it really zero down the blacklash. Sometimes some parts of the machine need NOT be metal to cut out vibrations and noise. Part of your printed band seems like uneven extrusions not totally z-band. I am not sure about converting to belt to stop my blame on the Z-Leadscrew bend. Anyone tested can share your views too. Bear in mind Z is the least movement axis among all bed slingers. Thanks for making this well presented video ❤
You see your problem isn't the lead screw at all. Mine is bend but there is no sign of wobble on the print. I have done all "bad" practices. Fully tightened the POM lead screw thing to the frame while you are supposed to leave it untightened. I added a bearing at the top which is supposedly really bad but I need it to stop the lead screw from vibrating with my high acceleration. The problem instead is Creality leaving the screws too loose from the factory. Specifically the ones holding the Z Gantry so technically the X gantry. There are several screws that you can tighten to lock the parts with the V wheels. Essentially you have to first make sure your X gantry is level then fully tighten the eccentric nuts so that the inner wheels are jamming the outer wheels. Then tighten the brackets while making sure it stays level. After that you can untighten the eccentric nuts again and check for play. If you have done it correctly your X axis doesn't want to wobble anymore it will want to naturally be straight. After that you can tighten the eccentric nuts to the correct spec so slightly touching but its really not required as the outer V wheels will do all the work. What that does it prevent jamming on the lead screw as your X axis will always be level. I think you are putting way too much thought into it while for the Ender 3 v2 Neo (my printer) there really isn't much to it. From the factory there was 0 banding. I replaced the brass with POM because it promised better accuracy and it indeed only has 0.05mm difference between moving up and down. As long as you move the same direction its 100% accurate. Only when going up then down vs only going up does the 0.05mm come into play. Also my printer needs 398.94 steps per mm instead of 400 for the Z.
I cured my Z banding by revisiting the math of how many rotations or steps needed for x number of millimeters. Mine was off by just a fraction but, the accumulation was dramatic and contributing to Z-Banding.
@@MaxyMeanderings Those are some fantastic choices! As far as linear rails I was reading KevinAKASam's (belted Z mod creator) documentation for the belted z and he advised against it. Reason being is the POM wheels allow you to tighten the concentric nut and create friction, where as the linear rails have 0 friction. Problem is with only 1 stepper holding the entire X gantry, the X gantry will fall once the printer is turned off if the Z axis has linear rails. Having that friction from the POM wheels ends up helping the single stepper hold the gantry in place, or at least gently bring it down.
@@MaxyMeanderings Yeah don't use wobbleX on a dual lead screw setup like on your ender, it needs quite a bit of weight to work properly. It was really meant for ball screws I think but I've seen those get a lot cheaper
Great video, really enjoyed it and learned a lot, but the motor with intergrated leadscrew is only £5 more expensive than the other combination options so I wouldn't call it financial masochism, plus you have fewer chances of user error
I found printable motor mounts to help with XY alignment online and upgraded to polymer lead screw nuts and old ham couplers. No more Z banding that appeared out of nowhere!!
One question: - In the Oldham Coupler design, you do recommend removing the top constraint, right? Thanks for the awesome quality content. I have a Sovol SV06 Plus, and I want to eliminate the Z-Banding once and for all.
My stock fixed coupler was from factory extremely misaligned. So fixed coupler is a no no for me. But if you get one that's well made, I agree is a better option.
@ The end of the Video I was just about to watch "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and heard the theme song in your video, Magic. No idea how I got to this video, but you are entertaining. Thanks.
So once again, purpose built items beat all; still though, there are issues sometimes caused by the print, and those can be frustrating to try to flush out..
@@MaxyMeanderingsI had another idea. What if instead of mounting the motors at the bottom of the 3D printer, what if they were mounted at the top. With a top mount could you sync the motors with a belt at the input shaft so you wouldn't put a binding force at the end of the screw? If this is hard to understand comment again and I'll explain better with images. Alternatively you could mount the motors to the gantry and then have them pull the gantry up this could also allow syncing at the motor level. Lastly is there any board with dual/triple independent z motor control for software syncing using offsets ?
@@RussFoote there's boards you can use independent dual z drivers(really you just need the extra drivers) but I don't think they have some offsets. I've thought of lifting the x axis(z) from the middle with 1 but haven't gotten around to doing that.. there's some belt synced 2 axis systems with screws and there's a corexy on the z/x axis bedslinger printer out there as well. while fun none of them solve some inherent problem that most people would care about so they're not that common. most people just don't need the z to run that fast. you can use biggest linear rails you can find on the z rails that are static though and make that as rigid as you want, you can build a box that rises with the z to stiffen it up too since weight of that is not an issue on a bedslinger.
z acceleration can also affect this issue try lowering it from the usually default value of 500 to 200/100 and you probably might reduced/eliminate the issue in a few of your configurations.
Something most don't know about stepper motors: Inside them is a spring-washer type pre-tensioner, it preloads the motor and keeps it from rattling if you shake it, guess what side it's usually on though? The bottom(bushing upwards when used in the z-axis like this), your gantry weight might be sufficient to deflect this spring and cause irregularities if things are heavy enough. You can tell by watching the coupler while giving it a little push down against. Your thrust bearing is probably fixing this. On mine I took the motor apart and relocated the spring to the top so it pushes downwards instead, resulting is a notably more stable Z-reference.
Genius! This is a great tip, it very noticeably reduced Z banding for me and it's so easy to test if your motor has a spring-washer configured this way. Thank you!!!
Any chance you can show or reference a video that explains this?
@@projectartichoke Awesome! I'm very glad to hear that random info was actually useful to someone else as well. (had notifications off, but better late than never.) I've actually never seen ANYONE cover this detail at all, and it's pretty easy to overlook or never know about.
@@moodberry Very late to reply, but you can check for it by literally pushing down on the shaft of a stepper that's pointed up, if it visibly deflects down into the motor and it's being used on a Z-drive for anything supporting weight.. then that basically means it can get forced down like a spring and cause uneven settling heights. Visually it looks just like a washer but has a 'ripple' indented into it, so it isn't flat.
I just want to concur with many countless other people with the production quality of this video and how much it helps. Thank you for your time as I know it was very time-consuming.
This is one of the best produced 3d printing videos I have ever seen. Engaging at every segment.
SO TRUE!
"Self lubricating" is code for "material lost to wear acts as a sort of lubricant".
No, it's material dependent. Stainless steel, titanium, glass for instance aren't "self lubricating" no matter how they wear. Brass, copper, white metal alloys are, because unlike those, they shed flat plates that slide across each other. Same for plastics, nylon, ptfe, UHMW, POM/delrin contain internal lubricants that are only released with wear, some are even impregnated with oil, they all need an initial break in before this happens. PLA, ABS to name but two, do not.
@@m3chanist Wh "no" , what i say wrong? Of course worn material can be either a lubricant or an abrasive, both is possible. Besides very confused comment.
There aren't "internal lubricants" in the plastics mentioned, it's purely low surface energy causing the material to be low friction, chemically induced property. PTFE PA etc are not impregnated with oil.
@SianaGearz I didn't say they were, I said they can be and are in a variety of engineering applications. I'm sorry for your confusion, read more carefully. What you said that was wrong was that material lost to wear acts as a kind of lubricant, as I pointed out, that is only jn some cases, that it is material specific, not a blanket catchall.
@@m3chanist ☝ This!
@@m3chanist they were talking about "Self lubricating" materials specifically mentioned in the video, not all materials. they were and still are correct.
The production value on this was through the roof.
Thank you.
WHAT A GREAT VIDEO! The depth you went into and how thorough with amazing and engaging video quality…WOW!!! Please keep making content. Subscribed!!!
Phenomenal show, sir. Great enthusiasm and top notch experimentation.
Excellent video! These kind of deep dives are the best 👍
I got a used ender 3 Max. I was loving it up until one day I thought it was doing layer shifts. It's getting really frustrating. I kept doing different things to try to figure out what is happening.
Watching this video I think it is z banding. Im so excited to get home and try some of the things in the video.
@13:30
I'm rebuilding my CR-10 and went with the oldham coupler setup from this video.
Anyway, I lubed the threads of my POM nut as well as the oldham coupler, and I'm noticing the gantry slipping or skipping (??) as I manually move the gantry up, by turning the lead screw using the motor coupler on the bottom.
That may not be the answer to that question, but it's a new issue that I now have to resolve.
Wow this video is great, you deserve far more views and subscribers. Really well researched and exposed, amazing job!
I hope you're getting paid in some way shape or form for this Awesome content! Thank you so much. Learned a lot. Picked up an Anycubic Chiron for $40, of course with issues, but this will help me get closer to more quality prints. Thanks!
Just tried oldham couplers, and they completely fixed it. It did allow me to see that there is a slight inward slant of the lead screw, so I'll have to print motor brackets to help position it correctly. But even now, the prints come out perfect!
Bro Im not that guy but Subbed! This was perfect! Literally every second. Simple enough but yet deep enough your dont dive off the cliff in detail you get lost on another subject. Owe you big for this one
I've subscribed without even watching the whole video. The intro was so captivating.
A lot of good info and follow through. No mention of the belt conversion which is claimed to also eliminate z banding.
12:31 Is the way you have the oldham and POM nut stacked optimal? All of it under the aluminum bracket and the POM nut at the bottom?
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:23 *🛠️ Z banding is a common issue in 3D printers caused by mechanical problems with Gantry and lead screw.*
01:50 *🔩 Z binding can cause ribbing in prints due to missteps on z-axis lead screws.*
03:43 *🧽 Regular maintenance like cleaning and lubricating lead screws is essential to minimize Z banding.*
07:26 *🔧 Leveling Gantry and ensuring motor mounts are square can help reduce Z banding.*
09:33 *📏 Ensuring lead screws align with motor couplers is crucial to prevent Z banding.*
13:18 *⚙️ Consider the type of nuts used (brass vs. palm) and lubrication to reduce Z banding.*
16:54 *🏗️ Lead screw covers can protect the top of the lead screw while allowing rotation.*
18:49 *💲 Consider cost-effective solutions like oldham couplers and flexible couplers to address Z banding before opting for more expensive options.*
Made with HARPA AI
i have a og cr10 and found pretty much the same thing. the things that helped the most was oldham connector that was filed(mine did not slide smooth) and lubed and getting rid of the top guide. plum coupler didnt change anything for me and antibacklash made things worse. i got new leadscrews after the oldham and i so disernable improvements. only other thing that helped along the way was replaceing the stock extruder with a direct drive and a mains bed heater with insolation. going to give the motor mounts a try because why not.
Nice production quality. Wish my videos looked that good !
Paused at the 3min mark to just say that the editing of this video is absolutely superb! 👌🏼 Informative and entertaining. Thanks to some of the new gen printers, I certainly dont miss the days of z-banding, gantry leveling, aluminum extrusions and roller wheels.
Great advice !
I solved the leadscrew issues by, THROWING THEM AWAY and replacing them with a belted Z mod. Z hopping is MEGA accurate now and my supports just snap clean off. Next thing I will do is install linear rails because those POM wheels are a huge problem aswell....
I love watching people fix things or put things together. When I tell you I have no idea what this is; nor do I actually need to know this info. It’s intriguing & the quality is *chef’s kiss* though 😂
EXCELLENT video my guy! I have 2 Ender 3’s and I have dual lead screws on both of them along with direct drives! You have explained what I have been having trouble and have noticed! I have noticed the screws are really not lined up properly, and it’s just a few mm if that. And that really makes a difference. The trouble with belts is that they are like chains on a bike or motorcycle. You can only tighten them so much until you’ve stretched them all you can and have to replace them. So belts (in my opinion) are not on option for me. Any way great video, subscribed!
Thanks for this video. Just ordered an oldham for my Ender 3v2 since i've had some issue with prints. After buying an orbiter 2 and setting everything right i klipper knew it was not the cause of it since it was even before new extruder and i've checked the wheels multiple times and it didn't make sense it was the X and Y since the print had lines all around and in a consistand thickness as if it squished and it would be at random it would. So hope this fixes it and maybe one day i'll upgrade to something like a RatRig
The most critical thing with leadscrew alignment is that the bearings and nut are all in *exactly* the same relative position to the linear axis the screw is driving.
The screw being straight is irrelevant if the top & bottom bearings are at different distances from (or laterally to) the linear slide!
That is probably why the top bearing caused problems - the opposite end was not in line with the nut, so it was causing lateral force on the nut near the ends of the travel.
It applies to the industrial machine tools I work on, and equally to 3D printers or any small CNC.
My modified cr10s pro v2 prints good quality with the old micro swiss setup. I have z hop enabled which helps reduce z banding.
Please explain the jargon.
What is PID tuning please ? Palm Nuts ? PID Tuning ?
We beginners need explanations of technical terms we have not heard before. Thank you !
PID tuning fine tubes the electrical current running to the thermistor, the heater for the hotend. The tuning keeps the temperature steady, so there's minimum cooling / reheating of the hotend...creating as steady a temperature as possible.
Thrust, stock coupler, oldham, fixed at top with bearing that allows slight x y movements, i get almost no banding now!!!
Did all this in the last year!
Good vid!
Did you have to print new motor mounts before you put the thrust bearings on and when you install the oldham couplers, you don’t need the old POM couplers (I have a CR 10 smart and I think that’s what they are) that are under the gantry anymore, correct? Thank you.
@treyduval5399 i didnt have to but the ender 3 had bad mounts so i did
The oldham coupler will attach to the threaded pom attachment to the gantry
I also put anti backlash nuts which was a long attachment with a spring
@@michaelmerryman577 thank you very much for responding and the help! I have purchased the anti-backlash nuts with springs and am wondering, should I put on top or under the gantry? I’ve her different opinions on it?
I have done both, it didnt make much of a difference!!! @@treyduval5399
i became one of the 2K subs cause of this vid, keep goin!
Loving this video, your quality and explanation, and the channel as a whole. Can't wait to see what else you do man
Note that brass oldham couples like the ones you showed aren't supposed to work well under compression, when an oldham coupler that responds well to compression is installed the lead screw isn't constrained laterally at the X axis, in those cases constraining at the top _is_ a good idea because otherwise the lead screw is underconstrained. There are bearing-based oldham-style couplers like the "wobble wings" and the suchlike that are designed to work under compression, also bear in mind that thrust bearing are great but can introduce vertical motion in the lead screw if they are not perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the lead screw, which can be tough to ensure
I wanted to thank you here. You changed my print quality. With this training you gave. Everything changed for me. I was not at all satisfied with the quality of my print. But when I did what you said. The result I got was unbelievable. My print quality has improved so much that there is no difference with resin. I would love to have a place where I could show you the results. And see how the quality is. It looks like it was taken with bamboo printers. With this tutorial, you showed me that it is possible to get a good quality print. And it is not a wish. I am very sorry that I got to know your channel earlier. I wish I had seen this video earlier. thank you. Thank you generous man. Thank you for your great advice. Please continue your work and post more tutorials. No matter how much I thank you, I have thanked you little. Thank you, kind man. thank you❤❤❤❤❤❤🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏thank you thank you
what printer do you have out of interest, because I have horrible z banding on my sovol sv07
My printer is model Elegoo neptune4pro. The first time I bought it, it was of excellent quality. After a few months, the changes were applied to the print. I was disappointed. I searched everywhere. No one could help me. And they just confused me. Until I saw this video. It is not believable. But the quality of my printer is even better than the first days. All these events were for this tutorial. This video changed my printing. Thank you for this generous man. thank you
damn, editing & content quality fooled me into thinking you got like at least 1 mil subs... so pro, fingers crossed
SAME HERE!
Finding this at a good time. About to pull out the old V2 and maybe try to tune it up again. Thank you for such a thorough and approachable how-to.
The thrust bearing is important for another reason. The motor has a spring inside of it, allowing the axle to move up and down a little. By placing the thrust bearing between the coupler and the motor body, this freedom for the lead screw to move slightly down is eliminated, and it will unlikely to move up because of gravity, but if you really want to make sure you can go overboard and put a thrust bearing at the top of the printer as well to really constrain the lead screw Z motion.
Thank you for sharing! Good idea about the thrust bearings, something I haven't tried. I recently just installed a dual Z axis stepper motor kit, the box says it's from Creality, but I'm not sure if it's authentic. Anyway, the kit I bought came with anti-backlash lead screw nuts aluminum mounts for both stepper motors. I still had to put a shim for the originally located stepper motor, but no for the other side, I'm guessing the gantry bracket for the original spot wasn't drilled properly or bent at the correct spot. When I was aligning the lead screws with the stepper motors, I left all the mounting screws and lead screw nut loose first, and also moved the X axis gantry all the way down for better alignment, I even removed the printer head so I could go as low as possible. I didn't know about the top mount could cause issues. When I installed mine, I moved the X axis gantry all the way up possible, so that the top mounts are aligned the best way possible before I tightened them in place. I might leave mine in for now, as I don't see any Z banding issues with my prints.
Quite comprehensive. Great stuff. Appreciated how much effort you put into it.
Can you post links to the Oldham and Thrust Bearing / Pom u used in the video?
Just added them
The #1 most thorough set of tests/results and solution options on YT. My issues are around z-binding (mainly), with no discernible pattern in the layers. It's been a total pain to trace down and I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the anti-backlash nut and sub-standard linear bearings, but good luck trying to find a set of well made bearings that are any better than what Creality uses. Again - really good video and I've subbed.
Some good information here, especially like the idea of a thrust bearing between the stepper and the coupler, thanks.
Is it just me, or did you also subscribe because of the end music, prolly just me. Good work mate! Keep it up!
The just about to be released, Ender 3 V3 with CoreXZ kinematics seems to be a good approach with no lead screws. How would CoreXZ compare to linear rails? Of course, the Ender 3 V3 is nearly double the cost of the Ender 3 V3 SE.
You can throw 1000 dollars into precision ball screws, but your extruder is the limiting factor. Uneven extrusion is the cause of the artifacts that are non-rhythmic. A leadscrew will always give a rhythmic artifact pattern.
What’s the best way to get even Extrusion?
@@mrpawno4955calibrate your e-steps and flow rate. And maintain your machine regularly. And don’t cheap out on the maintenance and trie to keep the room where your printer is as clean as possible. That’s helps with keeping out as much dirt and debris as you can.
good video, AND, funny, I built my Prusa I3 almost entirely by myself.
my Z threads are old-fashioned M5 threads and yes, they are loose at the top AND go back and forth (not extreme!)
and that's why I ended up here, I still have to see what I can do about it BUT I'm in no hurry, the printer works well enough so it will get better with time!
Healthy and Friendly Greetings from the Netherlands everyone!
Rob
I literally fought a gantry level problem for a whole weekend, settled on using my Angle Cube, then 3 days later I found that you did the EXACT same thing.
The angle cube is great for quick adjustments
This is an amazing video and I'm having these same issues, so I wish it could help me 😭. I'm new and have a printer without a lead screw, and I can barely get any help for it online.
Try cleaning the lead screws and using a dry ptfe lubricant spray, have you also investigated changing out the v-slot wheels for polycarbonate?
Heres to your videos getting more views and hopefully more subs! Also congrats on getting a sponsor!
Now I get to see this masterpiece again 😉
Thats all fine and dandy but some Z Banding, wobble, whatever can also be caused by the wheels on the x gantry riding on the frame if they are not perfectly round. They can cause z banding, I've tested this extensitivly with my original ender 3 that didnt have duel z screws. After disabling my Z motors in the printer screen, you raise the gantry up and down with two fingers and if there is any resistance as the wheels go up and down you have an issue with a flat spot on the wheels. The issue can be very slight so you have to really get a good feel for how the wheels feel against the frame. This can happen more then not when the printer has been sitting for extended periods of time not being used, the tight wheels will deform over time against the Z extrusion frame. This can even happen when putting the printer together if care is not taken when mounting the X gantry and the wheels are grouged when fitted onto the z extrusion frame. Lead screews can be a problem but could also be other issues.
Bent lead screw itself wont deflect in travel at any noticeable rate, extremely small effect (a2 + b2 = c2). Most Z issues are simply binding from being out of square, the rest are bad PID tuning (temps jumping around) and bed bounce/vibration, mostly just on bed slingers. BUT if you have dual Z motors and there tied together with a belt and not in phase, it's better to simply unplug one if that gantry holds up when turned off. If you need both, loosen one coupler and activate the motors then level your gantry and tighten it up. That will put them in phase so that there not constantly trying to fight each other paying a back and forth tug of war. The last one, a loose carriage.
The POM nuts work just fine and can be "loose" as gravity will do the job of keeping them in place, maybe if you need to print while its on it's side.. idk.
The thrust bearing would compensate for bad/cheap bearings in the factor motors, but you can get nearly the same effect of the oldham with nylon washers and only tightening the brass nut so that there's no play, allowing to the stock cheap brass nut to move around in the x/y AND also wobble to play along with a bent lead screw.
i looked into oldham couplers 9 years ago for my 3d printer and they weren't available in a usable size. they were also expensive.
what is the VREF volts for the Nema motors to work properly without loosing any step ? I read somewhere that they require 1.8 Volts in VREF which is a lot higher that what the default VREF of Ender boards like 4.2.7
Stock vref is fine for z axis. If you’re losing steps, check you don’t have too much resistance between your leadscrew nuts and leadscrews
Thanks for all your testing!!
the lead screw in ender 3 series is 365mm. Nema stepper motor with integrated lead screw have a max length of 350. Can these missing 15 mm be a problem ?
The installed 350mm leadscrew stepper reaches the top of the frame on the ender 3 just fine. No Z height is lost.
I went all out and chucked the lead screws and went for a z-belt driven solution. Works beautifully well.
Do you have the new reality, V3 or did you create it yourself? I’m thinking about ditching the lead screw and going for the Z belt solution or an XY core printer
@@treyduval5399You can easily mod it yourself or convert into something like a Voron Switchwire but I'm not sure just belt drive is worth it. There's other variances in the Ender design and you should be able to get Z artifacts to a minimum.
On my old E3 Pro I decided against a 2nd motor and went with belt-driven dual lead screws which is amazing as long as it's aligned perfectly. I squared the frame, secured it with stabilizer bars and checked it over with a micrometer. I use POM anti-backlash nuts (you just need POM) and swapped in PC wheels ONLY the Z-axis. Lead screws can often be found cheap if yours are visibly bent.
After that the best thing to do IMO is convert it to run Klipper with a raspberry pi. I love my CoreXY printers but this workhorse is still accurate enough to keep giving it work and I mostly print ABS. Never underestimate a well-tuned Ender running Klipper.
@@treyduval5399 I have a v2
Bruh i was just trying to figure out how to make some marks in the walls better and now I'm signed up for your engineering class
What do you do about the Z axis not advancing upward after adding a CR Touch?
Тоже столкнулся с такой проблемой на своем принтере. Но, проблема оказалась не в оси Z...
Хотя Стефан из CNC Kitchen говорил про PID кровати, что также исправил, но основных проблем было 2 - это прецизионная настройка шагов экструдера и коэффициента потока в слайсере. Второй момент - неправильная заводская сборка колес каретки экструдера. Пересобрал по собственной методике и точность позиционирования возросла на порядок! Думаю, что простая копеечная модификация позволила довести точность такую, как для линейного рейлинга. Напишите мне в ответ, и я постараюсь дать подробный ответ как это сделать. Удачи!
This video NEEDS to be on the wiki of all manufacturers! Amazing, very clear and top quality! New sub!!!!
Any place to buy the thrust bearings, no longer showing
Cpuld a oldham and plum be used together to eliminate z-banding?
In my opinion & experience as long as we let the top end hang free and allow the linear rod to hold its position. Best is increase to 10mm rod or use linear guide the Z. I use a PLA printed z Lead nut and it really zero down the blacklash. Sometimes some parts of the machine need NOT be metal to cut out vibrations and noise. Part of your printed band seems like uneven extrusions not totally z-band. I am not sure about converting to belt to stop my blame on the Z-Leadscrew bend. Anyone tested can share your views too. Bear in mind Z is the least movement axis among all bed slingers. Thanks for making this well presented video ❤
You see your problem isn't the lead screw at all. Mine is bend but there is no sign of wobble on the print. I have done all "bad" practices. Fully tightened the POM lead screw thing to the frame while you are supposed to leave it untightened. I added a bearing at the top which is supposedly really bad but I need it to stop the lead screw from vibrating with my high acceleration.
The problem instead is Creality leaving the screws too loose from the factory. Specifically the ones holding the Z Gantry so technically the X gantry. There are several screws that you can tighten to lock the parts with the V wheels. Essentially you have to first make sure your X gantry is level then fully tighten the eccentric nuts so that the inner wheels are jamming the outer wheels. Then tighten the brackets while making sure it stays level. After that you can untighten the eccentric nuts again and check for play. If you have done it correctly your X axis doesn't want to wobble anymore it will want to naturally be straight. After that you can tighten the eccentric nuts to the correct spec so slightly touching but its really not required as the outer V wheels will do all the work.
What that does it prevent jamming on the lead screw as your X axis will always be level.
I think you are putting way too much thought into it while for the Ender 3 v2 Neo (my printer) there really isn't much to it. From the factory there was 0 banding. I replaced the brass with POM because it promised better accuracy and it indeed only has 0.05mm difference between moving up and down. As long as you move the same direction its 100% accurate. Only when going up then down vs only going up does the 0.05mm come into play.
Also my printer needs 398.94 steps per mm instead of 400 for the Z.
Isn't this up to the manufacturer to fix it? In any case, that's why we call it "ender"
I cured my Z banding by revisiting the math of how many rotations or steps needed for x number of millimeters. Mine was off by just a fraction but, the accumulation was dramatic and contributing to Z-Banding.
Incredibly well done video! Definitely subbed and look forward to more from you!
Thanks for your time and info
Great vid... I struggled to find good info on this issue when I decided to "sell" prints B4 actually learning how to "print" prints🤷... lol
Now overhaul it again and switch it to a belted Z axis set up 😂 Jokes aside, fantastic video and quality, very informative 🙌
Thanks! 3 things that I would like to test still: A banded Z setup, Linear rails on the Z Gantry, and the Wobble X attachment.
@@MaxyMeanderings Those are some fantastic choices! As far as linear rails I was reading KevinAKASam's (belted Z mod creator) documentation for the belted z and he advised against it. Reason being is the POM wheels allow you to tighten the concentric nut and create friction, where as the linear rails have 0 friction. Problem is with only 1 stepper holding the entire X gantry, the X gantry will fall once the printer is turned off if the Z axis has linear rails. Having that friction from the POM wheels ends up helping the single stepper hold the gantry in place, or at least gently bring it down.
@@MaxyMeanderings Yeah don't use wobbleX on a dual lead screw setup like on your ender, it needs quite a bit of weight to work properly. It was really meant for ball screws I think but I've seen those get a lot cheaper
@@MaxyMeanderings did you test Wobble X my man?
You’re tone/presentafion to the audience has a kind of Acerola flair. Which is a high compliment from me.
I’m going to have to watch this a few times. Lots of great info
You try the woble-X or similar solution?
Nice video quality !
What a great video!
Fun to watch, too.
:)
Thanks Maxy,
This was amazingly helpful, Thank you!
Thanks a lot for this clear view man,
Great video, really enjoyed it and learned a lot, but the motor with intergrated leadscrew is only £5 more expensive than the other combination options so I wouldn't call it financial masochism, plus you have fewer chances of user error
I found printable motor mounts to help with XY alignment online and upgraded to polymer lead screw nuts and old ham couplers. No more Z banding that appeared out of nowhere!!
please, where u finding the xy motor mounts?
@@wilsonmachado8695 search for Ender 3 V2 stepper mount on printables, I tried posting a link but YT isn't liking that.
Search for Ender 3 V2 stepper mount on printables, I tried posting a link but YT isn't liking that.
@@wilsonmachado8695 search for Ender 3 V2 Z stepper mount on Printables.
@@wilsonmachado8695 search for ender 3 v2 z stepper mount on printables
One question:
- In the Oldham Coupler design, you do recommend removing the top constraint, right?
Thanks for the awesome quality content. I have a Sovol SV06 Plus, and I want to eliminate the Z-Banding once and for all.
Yep, I recommend removing the stabilizer across all setups.
@@MaxyMeanderings Understood, thanks for the reply!
One thing I can print the motor shins when I have the motor z rods out and realized there way off
This brought back memories of my old tevo tarantula. I have to do something with those parts and upgrades I bought for it, one of these days.
That was pretty good. Well done and thanks.
Excellent video, but you missed the "wobblex" adapter, they are amazing.
Super helpful. Thanks!
My stock fixed coupler was from factory extremely misaligned. So fixed coupler is a no no for me. But if you get one that's well made, I agree is a better option.
what is the files for this test called
The Link is now in the description
Good stuff thanks for doing all this work
@ The end of the Video I was just about to watch "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and heard the theme song in your video, Magic. No idea how I got to this video, but you are entertaining. Thanks.
Adding those diagonal struts like the cr10 has, should massively reduce z wobble. Because it makes that thing stop wobble.
2024 and a video showing the operation of the ender 3 😁 I thought that it was no longer possible to record a video about this printer 😅
So once again, purpose built items beat all; still though, there are issues sometimes caused by the print, and those can be frustrating to try to flush out..
Excellent tutorial! Thank you!
During your testing did you think of testing a belt driven z drive?
Also great video you got my subscription.
Yep, I still want to test a belt driven Z axis, Linear rails on the Z and the Wobble X attachment
@@MaxyMeanderingsI had another idea. What if instead of mounting the motors at the bottom of the 3D printer, what if they were mounted at the top. With a top mount could you sync the motors with a belt at the input shaft so you wouldn't put a binding force at the end of the screw? If this is hard to understand comment again and I'll explain better with images.
Alternatively you could mount the motors to the gantry and then have them pull the gantry up this could also allow syncing at the motor level.
Lastly is there any board with dual/triple independent z motor control for software syncing using offsets ?
@@RussFoote there's boards you can use independent dual z drivers(really you just need the extra drivers) but I don't think they have some offsets.
I've thought of lifting the x axis(z) from the middle with 1 but haven't gotten around to doing that..
there's some belt synced 2 axis systems with screws and there's a corexy on the z/x axis bedslinger printer out there as well. while fun none of them solve some inherent problem that most people would care about so they're not that common. most people just don't need the z to run that fast. you can use biggest linear rails you can find on the z rails that are static though and make that as rigid as you want, you can build a box that rises with the z to stiffen it up too since weight of that is not an issue on a bedslinger.
I was really wondering, why there were no "lead screw stabilizers" on my Prusa. Seems like they had done their homework.
Fantastic production quality!! Great information too. You gained my sub.
z acceleration can also affect this issue try lowering it from the usually default value of 500 to 200/100 and you probably might reduced/eliminate the issue in a few of your configurations.
Very good, video helped a lot!
Wobble X?
Nice repair chap, think the caps may not have registered as it takes time to charge and those small testers time out