Top 3 Things They Don't Teach You in Trade School | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 14
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- Trade schools are a great way to learn to start your machining career, but some things can only be learned in the field. In this episode, Ian talks about some fundamental skills you'll never learn in school.
Whether you are an apprentice on the floor, whether you've been a machinist for a few years, whether you've been on the management side, or where you are still taking classes at a college, mastering the following skills will help you take your career to next level.
The first thing you'll never learn in trade school is urgency. Having an innate sense of urgency is going to highly influence the way you do your job, your hourly rate, and, bottom line, the profitability of your machine shop.
The second skill that is not typically taught in trade school (but it should) is negotiation. Knowing how to negotiate properly is critical in the manufacturing business (or any business) as it allows you to be more successful, avoid unwanted situations, and keep a good relationship with people around you.
Last but not least, one of the most critical, yet untaught, skills in the machining trade is troubleshooting. The ability to troubleshoot a problem, whether it's trying to figure out why a program is not working correctly or why parts are not coming out right, is fundamental and will determine whether you'll be successful or not in this trade.
Do you agree with Ian? What are the things you think trade schools should be teaching more to their students? Share your experience and thoughts in the comments!
Stay tuned for more machining videos!
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#machining #manufacturing #tradeschools
Top three things:
1. Admitting when you made a mistake
2. Troubleshooting
3. The importance of datums when flipping or reworking a part
Reading prints! With todays new geometric tolerancing and drawings, even I'm lost sometimes. It's a far cry from the mechanical drawing and drafting I learned 45yrs ago. And the old +.00??/-.00?? plus/minus dimensioning. Everything is done on a computer. Draftsmen and engineers of old built it in their mind, made sketches and when drawing the details on paper, they saw, and solved a lot of potential problems. Today it's, "well, it worked on the computer!" A lot of programmers and operators don't have much, if any mechanical aptitude beyond pushing buttons.
Metallurgy! Knowing the differences in metals, how they behave in process, warping, work-hardening, etc, can save a lot of time and cutting tools.
Chips and burrs have dimensions! Nothing like chips or burrs to throw a part off in a vise or fixture, or pressed into a critical surface of the part!
Three Things they don't teach in trade school: how to make mistakes, how to fix your mistakes, how to learn from you mistakes
Hear hear! Key here is that mistakes are going to happen, no matter what you do - so try to spin them into a learning experience.
Hey Jamie - You're a winner! Email info@practicalmachinist.com to claim your prize!
Time is something that puts us in our Graves. Sometimes this is faster than you think!
As to time. I worked for a Boss. He was a retired Navel Officer.
He was also very exact in how he wanted you to run things.
So one day I had more grief about time management. (At this stage I was doing two peoples jobs). And being paid for one.
So you listen to the commercial, say nothing, and he feels better.
So what I decided to do was come in early, do an hour extra a day, and cover myself this way.
So we have 5 hrs a week X 48 weeks + = 240 hrs per year. This was around 6 to 7 weeks (a year) he did not pay for. He got this for free.
When I had a year + under my belt, I saved this up, and waited for the next moment.
The next time I got grief about what it cost him to employ me.
This is what I said. " Out of 100/100 jobs I will do 99/100 that will be OK. But why do you complain about the one thing that I miss, when I am doing all this extra work?
I explained the extra free hours. And pointed out that he was doing very well out of this arrangement, and he was complaining about it. I did not get fired.
Their was another bugbear. If I had to do deliveries in an outlying area. I would take my lunch break at the same time. I got more done this way.
So I ended up on the carpet about this. Alright we will do it this way from now on. Go to the area for lunch. Have lunch there. Go back to the office. 15 minutes later leave to do the deliveries, in the same area.
Tea breaks was another bone of contention. At work, it was paid for by the business.
Out side you paid for it. So I would be in an area working. No cafes, or tea rooms. So I would travel to a place where I would take my tea break. Take it. And travel back again.
I left eventually, there was no pleasing the man.
Never went to true trade school....went straight to the trenches....but ....
The need for humility ...don’t be afraid to speak when your over your head, don’t think you know it all so you can’t ask a question .
Be open to new ideas....you don’t have to agree with every idea, but don’t close your mind to it....it might come back to bless you in different ways.
Don’t be afraid to think outside the box...when in trouble ....stop ....take a step back .....take a deep breath.....reassess......recheck your steps......you don’t need to repeat actions that haven’t worked,.......look for a different direction. 30 seconds of reflection can save you hours of aggravation.
When troubleshooting ....fixing the problem is one thing......fixing what caused the problem is better.....you need to find the good, so you can identify where the failure is.
Top 3 things, keep quiet, listen and learn. when you leave trade school you know zip - you are starting out on your journey, the qualification has got you throught the door thats all. listen to the knowledge being handed down and ask questions (when its safe to do so, grumpy people and machines wait for nobody). keep an open mind to learn everything, the more knowledge and experience you have the further you will gt in your career. Always own up to mistakes there isnt a magic way of fixing them.
Never went to trade school so can't really comment but thinking on your feet plays a big role
I think 3 things that I think are lacking are: The importance of shop cleanliness and routine maintenance, Time management, and learning to look at a problem from another angle and come up with a different solution. Great work Ian, Thank you
I’m about to go to trade school for machining in the Fall of 2021. I have visited a few times and spoken with all of the directors and even previous students. The number one subject I notice is missing is Time Management. The ability to look at a problem, troubleshoot, and see how you have to fix it is very important. But to me the attack of that solution and how time is managed doing so can make massive differences in efficiency and how fast something gets done or you can move on to the next project. I would also say social skills are lacking. This goes along with business training like he mentioned in the video. People in any trade must know how to communicate properly and conduct business. Lastly, I wish trade schools would give a course on dealing with emergencies. Some courses go over machine failure and basic topics like that ; and I am very thankful for that. However I wish they would invest in an intensive program that focuses on putting students under pressure and teaching them how to handle it. To often I see my generation cowering away when disaster strikes in the shop. I’ve personally seen how one person stepping up can be the difference between life and death. Many would probably say this is an odd addition to this list but to me and for the safety of others I believe it’s essential.
I just found a place that would hire me and teach me on the job while still being paid instead of paying a school to teach me and not even teach me what many companies want.
My three things not taught are:
1. Time management. It goes along with urgency but it's also accuracy vs. production.
2. Old school Machining fundamentals. 20 years ago I was spent my first year of school on the Manual Lathe and Milling machine. We ground our own tools from HSS and sharpened the school's drill bits. Only after we had demonstrated knowledge with our first projects were we allowed carbide. By our second year we knew the why behind what we were programming the CNC machines with.
3. Job shop experience. Back in my second year of school I was given the opportunity to make spur gears for a 1907 Oldsmobile transmission. Olds didn't use standard spur gear sizes back then, it forced me to think outside the box and research. Students have to figure it out. Added bonus: the community benefits from having those rare un-obtain-um machines and tools fixed, with a "small donation" to the school of course.
Top 3 things not taught in trade school.
Urgency is a hard opener to argue with. I was given a packet/folder of prints and told to turn them in with my workbook at the end of the semester and check online daily for tests and quizzes. Urgency was not something that could be compared to a shop environment. I like how you defined Negotiations. They should not be isolated to subjects such as pay etc.
You somewhat mentioned the ability to work with others and I know you have really touched on that in other videos but I think that is missing in trade school and doesn't prepare many for the different personality types you see in the field. Accepted demasculation in society/education is probably the fuel to that fire.
Troubleshooting was well defined in your video. In school, every machine was either "waiting for a tech" or basically setup without flaws . I helped move some machines in school and set them back up but never really had to "fix" one. Job shop changed that. I wish I was a better troubleshooter but most of that comes from opportunity and willingness to fail. I am good at approaching the first part but not the second.
Great video
I couldn't put them in order of importance. But I think 3 things that are not taught would be material/tool cost,
Quoting work, knowing when a shop is/isn't a shithole.
I would really stress material. I knew nothing of what was available or how to get material when I got out of school. Or the number of options that could pertain to one simple item
Quoting work is a huge one that as far as I can tell isn't really taught anywhere, at least in a formal sense. It was a massive thing for me to learn, and it's something that I've only gotten better at over the years by doing it badly and suffering through dog jobs as a consequence. Saving some others that headache and potential ruin would be an excellent thing.
How do you teach experience?
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Great video Ian. As I said in my IG comment, troubleshooting is huge. Here’s what I would say for a top 3. Obviously this is local experience and not general.
1: Measuring. Most come out of the local tech school using OD mics and calipers. A little bit on indicators like indicating a vise or a 4jaw chuck. But very little on using a height gage and indicator with gauge blocks on a surface plate, proper use of gage pins, or the finer points of using an indicator.
2: Troubleshooting, verbatim what you said in the video. It becomes a game of find who to fix the problem for you.
3: Efficiency. There are no time constraints in school which means you get two things: taking your time to make a perfect part, and taking your time to slack off. No focus on how to be an efficient worker, whether running a manual machine or CNC operating. And as nice as it is to make a perfect part, it needs to be in tolerance - if taking it from (comfortably) in tolerance to perfect takes extra time it’s not worth it, from a business perspective.
That’s what I see from our local tech school. There’s more to be fair, for example how to build a proper setup for CNC machining. Stops, parallels, soft jaws or maybe not even a vise at all; when I was in school our parts were virtually limited to steel jaws and parallels. But that’s a tangent, apologies.
Usually I think at least 4 steps ahead to avoid errors. Have 3 items white board pocket note book & good maintances practices. Yes steel is always going to be a cheap product so need to communicate to add value.
I've always taken pride in my sense of urgency, and troubleshooting. Machining is my Art, so getting the job done efficiently and beautifully is my mission. The fact you brought up an interpersonal skill worries me. I lack in most social skills, one of the reasons I chose machining. But, I'll take your advice to heart and start looking for areas I can practice my negotiation. Thanks for the insight.
This is something that should be taught in school. Some people don't want to be your friend.
w.B., the art of knowing when to get in and out of the way when performing a task of what ever can also be beautiful. It takes time and "common sense" to perfect the "$oup".
The part about being self driven to get good production as well as keeping quality standards up is totally lost on most on the people in the younger generation. Most have an attitude of why bother working hard for someone else just doo the minimum that you can do without getting fired.
The 3 things they should tell you BEFORE you start trade school:
1) THIS IS NOT an extension of high school! You can goof off and flunk only so much before they kick you to the curb - all along while collecting your money!!! SO: have your act together! 2: THERE IS ALWAYS TIME for "FUN" after your homework is done. SO: Knuckle down and just do it. 3) How you do here affects you for the rest of YOUR LIFE. This is where you are going to learn skills to build on for a career. SO: Focus on something you're good at and dive in!!!
Been doing program, setup, and operation of Mazaks, Hyundai, and Haas CNC Lathes and VMC's. You are absolutely right and yes trouble shooting is a HIGHLY NEEDED SKILL. Without it you will be a low class machine operator and NOT a machinist.... PERIOD. Without this skill I highly doubt you can hold a job machining.
Time management
The ability to think outside the box
Willingness to get things done and learn and figure out new ways to do something
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This is my first year teaching a CNC Production Specialist course. I'm 29 and work as an R&D machinist at a University by day, solo in an old school shop. My three things:
How to focus on the confidence to try, balancing humbleness to learn, rather than being intimidated by what you don't know, letting go of pride & ego, and the scary, inevitable machine crash.
How to think like a CNC, or even smarter than one, while doing parts manually; not to take things stepwise and hope it comes together, but to envision the whole process and all setups. Your mind is the weapon, a machine just expresses the strategy. In my class this starts with hand drills to isolate the man as the most critical part of the machine doing its job correctly!
The attitude and approach of seeing the wonders of precision and quality all around us in the modern world. (I had a conversation with my dental hygienist yesterday about through-tool coolant, as her pick tool used the same principles as our modern tooling- I think machining is the core trade that has a connection to all others, making it in my opinion the most versatile mindset among them all.)
How about showing up for work!!
A great skill to teach is deburring! Even a 20 minute lecture of the best tools and techniques for deburring different types of parts and materials could be really beneficial.
deburring is the most difficult thing I have found for my employees to learn, they can always take some of the burr off but it's still not right. My rule is your finger nail can not catch at all and it can not feel sharp when running your finger over an edge but evidently that is a very tough skill for most people no matter what tools you give them to use.
I think trade schools are doing a great job but are lacking students! We need to do a better job of filling them up by showing the need for advanced manufacturing to middle and high school students. One thing that I would recommend trade school teachers teach more to their students is realistic expectations:
#1 Expect to start at the bottom and put your time in to earn your way up. This may mean you clean coolant tanks, sweep the floor, run a band saw, file blanks, etc. Too often we show the potential salaries and create an expectation that a graduating student will start at that potential salary or position. It just doesn't happen that way. They earn their opportunities.
#2 Expect to live a life of learning. There is always something new to learn in the skilled trades and if you are humble, most are willing to teach you.
Bonus tip: When I interview, I always have the acronym AASK in mind (Attitude, Aptitude, Skills, & Knowledge). I hire the 1st two and train the 2nd two. If I find all four it's a rarity.
my 3 things; i got some weak foundations from 3 years of school. The first year of work gave me much more. Last almost 5 ive been to this place where i fight for survival every day because it just so much trobleshooting.
Three things are:
1) knowing when to tell a tooling salesman “you know your s#!t” and “you know you’re s#!t”
2) build bridges and don’t burn them, sometimes you won’t do everything all the time, it’s nice to have a subject expert on speed dial when you’re doing specialty tasks
3) be humble...subject experts love teaching humble people, when you’re cocky, the best think why waste their valuable time to teach someone that “knows it all”
Great segment!
That was some great advice, sounds like inventing. I wish I could tone down the urgency at times with my own work. Has it been 20 years already? Sure easier than Usenet. I never had any training. Contacted a trade school last year about TIG classes and they never got back to me. Guess I will have to wing that also.
I completely understand your point of view and agree that the three topics that you discussed are vital to the success of a machinist. I know quite well what is taught in a 'trade school' and can assure you that at our school we do teach those three things. It becomes a matter of how much of it do we teach. We only have so many so many hours to get through the basics and then apply it in an engaging way. Trust me, I struggle with what we don't teach too but I do feel as though we do about as much as we can in the time we have. The 3 most important things that we could teach more, in my opinion, are responsibility/accountability for your actions, costs (mistakes, tools, machines), and working effectively with others.
My apologies - I'm definitely not hating on trade schools! You guys do excellent work!
1st - You nailed it! URGENCY! Take some time to think something through, but then act on it. I don't think trade schools are teaching people to be aware of the costs of time.
2nd - ATTENDENCE! They need to explain the importance of showing up. Shops can make parts when they don't have people there to work.
3rd - PAY ATTENTION! To what you're being told, taught, and what you're doing at the time. Get in the zone and stay there. Day dream after work.
4th - LOVE IT! If you don't have a passion for this trade you shouldn't be doing it. You have to love it, spend your off hours thinking about it and learning new stuff. School will get you started but you can't stop there if you want to make it in the bizz.
Well the three things that come to mind with me are 1: Importance of being presentable at work, your in a profession trade don't show up to work looking like a hobo and smelling like one. Dress the part and dress safe. 2: That you should treat other peoples tools/shop tools like they are your own and care for them, it shows pride and accountability . 3: You can make mistakes(to a limit), Everyone is human just fess up right away and look for ways to fix the problem.
Do you not supply cover-alls or a shirt/pants uniform?
They should teach how to fully understand tooling and troubleshoot problems with tooling whether it's speeds and feeds or material issues. 2 how to be prepared to constantly switch between different machines with different g codes. 3 how to understand and diagnose alarms that seem to come on machines without reason.
In the age of CNC, I agree - there's a lot of education on how to *run* the machines, but very little available on how to *fix* the machines - unless you're willing to take a full millwright course or get private training from a service company. Practical Machinist forums have actually been one of my main sources of information to troubleshoot alarms and sort out issues without having to cut a painful cheque to get a tech out.
I feel troubleshooting is a big one. I have seen alot of machinists that lack the power to think about when, and why a problem came about.
Big time. Problems are going to happen, no matter what you do - the ability to hone down on what the issue is can make the difference between a slight interruption and burning more money trying to figure it out than the job was worth in the first place.
1)Problem solving. I don't think they challenge students enough. Force them to think and you'll find out who the born trades people are. 2)Pace. Machine shops/repair shops move at a fast pace. In school we were given a certain amount of time to do projects, but we're never rushed for fear we would make mistakes. Students, once they safely understand their surroundings and tools, should be pushed to see how they react under time stress. 3) Math. It scares me how bad some people in trades are at math. When you can Google something, it takes the necessity to learn away. Get a calculator, and use the formulas you should know, and get the calculation done by shear will and knowledge, not Google.
1. Dont blame other people for your problems. 2. You will be payed what you are worth. 3. There is more than one way to do something. Keep up with tech.
Troubleshooting, work holding, and the different ways to deburr parts. I received an Associate degree from my local community college and I wish we could have spent at least a day going over these items.
You hit 3 good ones. 3 more important ones 1 would be most of you will not be building fancy motorcycle parts... 2 listen to the people that have done it before, and build on their knowledge. 3 a positive one, This trade can take you anywhere in your life journey, it is going to be what you make of it, if you just like pulling parts from a machine or are inspired to run a company, there's a place for you. I was fortunate to have very good instructors in school, and was on the advisory commitie years after I attended and am saddened to see what the program has become.
I went to a vo-tech school and they gotta show some more quick thinking and little details that help with efficiency such as job planning or like the process of making something.
I would agree to every word to this but them three things don't just apply to a machine shop I say all workshops and the building site of construction
I've only been to my first year of school but some things I found they didn't teach and should've, how to manage your time and be as productive as possible, how to sharpen a drill by hand, and how to problem solve setups more effectively
Top 3 things not taught in school:
1) people skills. Interacting with other people whether it's coworkers, bosses, employees, customers, etc. Schools should help prepare us to interact with others in ways that are beneficial to all parties involved.
2) Networking. We all could benefit from being able to develop networks wherein each member sees the benefit of supporting and helping each other. Being able to pick up the phone and instantly get good advice about that balky Tormach spindle or the Orange vise that can't seem to keep parts from jumping out.
3) The art of deal making. We all need some guidance on becoming better at making deals that are good for all parties involved. We want deals that don't burn bridges. We don't want to slam the door on potential future business. The deals we make must benefit everyone and promote continued relationships.
That's my 2 cents.....
:)
These are actually great points and ones I’ve tried to hammer home in some other videos as well! I think there should be more emphasis on the soft business skills as much as the hard technical stuff, because a good machinist with no ability to interact professionally is going to find it hard to keep jobs or customers!
@@iansandusky417 yup! :)
Top three things , Work holding , Inspection and Speeds and Feeds .
Maybe, but without a sense of urgency those 3 things won't mean much for long. At least not at my shop anyway. Nothing grates on my nerves more that having a heavy work load and guys just shuffling along, moping through his day. But I'll tell you there is life after death, just watch around the time clock at 5pm, how they spring back to life.
@@onestopfabshop3224 I've seen that everyday in my 38 years .
All of those things should be covered and I can't see how they couldn't be.
@@jcollins3634 Only speaking for me I finished trade school in 1980 , our text books were from 1945 and my teacher who was a nice guy had us lay everything out center punch the lines and cut to it . The only skill learned that I could apply to a job was how to sharpen tools .
1 using a machine as another,
Lathe as mill, mill as lathe lathe as slotter...
2 tool design. Designing tools for specific jobs also not taught in school
3 How to market the craft of machining, also not taught in school.
Negotiation, problem solving, what not to do is always useful +
Fixturing and metrology!!
Time management, Ethics in the workplace and Critical thinking
Three things they don't teach in school... One is how to keep business coming in the door, marketing. Another is how to deal with an unhappy customer. And a third is had to keep customers happy where you don't get bad reviews online.
Definitely how to sharpen drill bits!
With an angle grinder, power button zip tied wide open, clamped in a benchvice
@@jcollins3634 Well, blood is technically a lubricant.
Top three things not taught in trade school: COMMUNICATION- I've seen more machine shops falter due to lack of communication from management to the floor and vice versa. COMMUNICATION- Shift to shift communication. Come up with a simple check list that can be left with the next shift if unable to talk face to face. It involves the job no., proven program or not, what tooling is installed, clamping, etc. COMMUNICATION- A shop needs to have a type of employee involvement program where the people on the floor get together without management involved about once a month to brainstorm any ideas, suggestions, or concerns. These things are documented and given to the proper person(s) for feedback in time for the EI team to review at the next meeting.
Top 3 things they don't teach you in trade school:
1) How to network to find clients
2) How to interview potential employers/employees
3) Accounting/financial literacy
On urgency. Being an old school machinist and a new school machinist. I wasn't one to stand in front of a c n c machine and watch it run two and three hours whistling Dixie. I'd set up a Bridgeport or another machine, while the cnc ran. Other employees told me to stop because management wouldn't even appreciate it. Come evaluation time they were wrong. But sometimes running 2 and 3 machines can cause quality issues I've found. But yeah younger guys in the trade have very little urgency.
Cad Cam would be my wish it’s such a good pathway to give them access to.
Problem solving / troubleshooting and time management
I like no#2 on the video. I like to to see work another company is supplying for the $6.0 per and I want to charge $8.0. You'll see 90% the $6.0 part guys cut so many corners the job barely passes inspection. Then you show them your parts and they have nothing but praises about it. My motto is never make a part for some one that you wouldn't buy yourself.
Flatness over long parts, job urgency, problem solving
Negotiations is a big one for same reasons you listed, then in my opinion, too much spent teaching CAD systems for Programming CNC, which is great, but need to teach more on Manually Programming the Machine. And need some Preventative Maintenance for the machines added into the class.
Works for any school, really
Top 3 things - Good work ethic, admitting when you make a mistake, and troubleshooting so you don’t make that mistake again
Good stuff
Never went to trade school but I can imagine they don't teach you to 1)never stop learning, 2)always write down anything 'special' you did on a job cuz the scenario might arise again and 3) sometimes it's just better to be lucky than skilled!
Fixturing and trouble shooting
I never went to trade school but one thing they probably could teach is how to work with the old farts that have already been doing this trade for decades. I have plenty of respect for, and I have learned a lot from the guy I work with but damn if I try to come up with a easier or better way of doing something it's like a big no-no and "that ain't never gonna work"
I fully agree. I feel like I've droned on endlessly in videos about the massive ego problem in this industry, and I think you've summed it up pretty succinctly. Resistance to chance is a big problem and can really limit learning opportunities for younger machinists, and subsequently cost companies a lot of money in lost innovation.
They dont teach you the importance of owning your own tools. You are s much more invested in your trade when you own the tools.
Mental toughness
Negotiating down job quotes too low makes you look desperate to get them and companies like that will walk all over you in the end expecting peanut invoices from you. You're worth your time and cost, not the other way around.
Trade school, we can't even get operators to load machines
It’s certainly rough out there right now!
Troubleshooting is good. Troubleshooting with zero documentation is bad. Record the problem. Record the fix. Let someone know so there isn't a problem the next time.
Top 3. Not verifying your tool. Just because you get .500 drill out of packaging doesn't guarantee it's .500. #2 Is not reading your Bible, i.e., blueprint fully before set up. #3 Is not 100 percenting your first part off machine. Gotta check 100 percent at minimum first fifth and last part off machine.
I think tstc is one of the worst machinist trade schools ever
Common sense , thinking outside the box and drive
So time is money. What's new?
It's all about the DRIVE. There is that feeling, "I can't believe they're paying me for something I love to do". It is a lust for knowledge.
1: Throughput. Gotta keep the green light on. The quicker a part gets on and off the table, the quicker the next part is done. Snowball effect.
2: Efficiency. Always try to cut run times down via innovative ideas. Make fixtures. Spend a little more on tooling. Update programming software. Hire hard workers, not guys just lookin for gravy.
3. Business. The business side of machining gives you the perspective you need to understand numbers 1 & 2. You wanna make more money? Make the company more money.
1) How to get a high paying job out of school(most schools give you a general education on all tools, which makes you basically one step above useless on all tools)
2) The practicalities of continuing education after school (machine shops are usually not in the business of improving their employees skills, they just want a really good x employee, sometimes they will train you to become a really good x employee but forget about learning y or z, You will have to figure out how to learn it on your own, somehow, I'll get back to you when I figure it out)
3) Don't become a dick when you are frustrated with a job, nobody likes that guy and one guy can poison the well in a workplace.