Lifetime struggler here, been messing with Balanced Embouchure for years. Really trying to get the hang of this TCE and appreciate your videos. This video has me thinking I should forget about trying to "roll-in" while trying to experiment with TCE. My number one problem with trumpet is endurance and range. My top lip always starts swelling and I can feel it being pinched between the mpc and teeth.
This video is 100% spot on man! In doing analysis of my own playing, I have found that the pinching of the lips is a real thing I struggle with. What's amazing, is having a "coffee" moment as Greg Spence calls it in regards to letting the air "blow" the lips somewhat forward enabling the free flow of air. My trumpet prof in college studied with Bobby Shew and shared a lot of his ideas with me.....but now almost 15 year later its finally clicking! I notice a bunch of things right away. Endurance is immensely increased and playing longer passages feels like little work Range is dramatically increased and throat choking off feeling almost non-existent. I know that I need to work more on some flexibility to lock in my tongue level more, but when it clicks....it really clicks! Articulation is extremely clear playing like this, and to your point, feels less effort, and also more percussive when pushed Tone feels "alive" is the best way to call it. Now knowing about what lots of people talk about playing in the tonal center of the note and getting the proper overtones etc, this makes perfect sense! My struggles atm: Taking a breath and falling back into the habit of pinching. I am going to work on a single mouth corner breath as Pops suggests to see if this can help me maintain the lips position more readily and starting getting consistency going. The other issue, is speed of setting to plan the correct way after taking initial air. When practicing and working to lock this down, not so much a struggle, but was using it during a rehearsal yesterday, and I know that my major focal area needs to be speed of setting up to really get things clicking.
Greetings from Germany from a silent but consistent viewer of your videos! Love the insights of your trumpet journey! Keep it up! You got this! All the best for the upcoming lead gig! Cheers, Jens
Thanks for the video Donavan. I find since using a smaller diameter mouthpiece and TCE I have to be very careful not to try to send as much air through my aperture. I found when I do this I also get premature swelling. By backing off and playing more softly I tend to keep my embouchure more consistent and can move more easily around the register.
Hi! A lot of the material relating to TCE out there focuses entirely on the tongue/air part and doesn't talk about the lips. Lee Adams used to say "the spit buzz isn't an embouchure" and, even as a loud advocate for this system, I entirely agree. I learnt a lot from the earlier double pedal tones (einsetzen/ansetzen) and legacy Superchops (1980s) material, which is very focused on a forward, padded, relaxed embouchure position. Lee would also say that you can't even do the TCE tongue position properly unless the lips are doing the right thing and, again, I'd be inclined to agree. There's a lot to be learned from the legacy Superchops book - particularly the pictures of the three embouchure types. Something it highlights is that the Maggio "pucker" is not the thing you're talking about here. Although it leads people in basically the right direction of getting the chops away from the teeth it doesn't provide the right kind of resistance, which is why it then needs to be coupled with tongue arch in order to work.
Yes, I believe the upper lip needs to be lifted slightly. Leon Merian called it ‘the sneer’. Pops M says the part you want vibrating is the little flap inside the upper lip. Ice cream cone is good! You lift your lip a bit. Claude Gordon approach is combo tongue level and TCE, although he avoided embouchure theory and let the routines let the chops develop naturally. Good work!
For me, the tongue level ( forward and higher ) continues very naturally to TCE as needed for range. For low and mid range all that’s required is tongue level. Depending on lower back blowing muscle strength, the front on the tongue naturally continues its path forward and pushes out the lower lip. Claude, I believe didn’t love this, as it can hinder the lip vibration. He believed, with proper blowing strength and technique, tongue level - once perfected, was enough. He said after a long day ‘my lips aren’t tired, my back is tired from all that blowing’. 2 ¢
Hello there mate! I think the second way you played the trumpet, it resonates more, which I think you got a better tone quality. By the way, do you have a Lotus Trumpet or AR Resonance Trumpet for sale? Cheers!
Hi your videos raise so many interesting points that are really helpful. Thank you and please keep posting.
Thank you! Will do!
Lifetime struggler here, been messing with Balanced Embouchure for years. Really trying to get the hang of this TCE and appreciate your videos. This video has me thinking I should forget about trying to "roll-in" while trying to experiment with TCE. My number one problem with trumpet is endurance and range. My top lip always starts swelling and I can feel it being pinched between the mpc and teeth.
That sounds all too familiar to me. I would recommend you give this a shot!
This video is 100% spot on man! In doing analysis of my own playing, I have found that the pinching of the lips is a real thing I struggle with. What's amazing, is having a "coffee" moment as Greg Spence calls it in regards to letting the air "blow" the lips somewhat forward enabling the free flow of air. My trumpet prof in college studied with Bobby Shew and shared a lot of his ideas with me.....but now almost 15 year later its finally clicking! I notice a bunch of things right away.
Endurance is immensely increased and playing longer passages feels like little work
Range is dramatically increased and throat choking off feeling almost non-existent. I know that I need to work more on some flexibility to lock in my tongue level more, but when it clicks....it really clicks!
Articulation is extremely clear playing like this, and to your point, feels less effort, and also more percussive when pushed
Tone feels "alive" is the best way to call it. Now knowing about what lots of people talk about playing in the tonal center of the note and getting the proper overtones etc, this makes perfect sense!
My struggles atm: Taking a breath and falling back into the habit of pinching. I am going to work on a single mouth corner breath as Pops suggests to see if this can help me maintain the lips position more readily and starting getting consistency going. The other issue, is speed of setting to plan the correct way after taking initial air. When practicing and working to lock this down, not so much a struggle, but was using it during a rehearsal yesterday, and I know that my major focal area needs to be speed of setting up to really get things clicking.
Greetings from Germany from a silent but consistent viewer of your videos! Love the insights of your trumpet journey! Keep it up! You got this! All the best for the upcoming lead gig!
Cheers,
Jens
Hey, thanks!
Thanks for the video Donavan. I find since using a smaller diameter mouthpiece and TCE I have to be very careful not to try to send as much air through my aperture. I found when I do this I also get premature swelling. By backing off and playing more softly I tend to keep my embouchure more consistent and can move more easily around the register.
Great advice for all of us!
First time watch and you have a great tone!
Thank you kindly!
Awesome advice. I’ve always struggled with lip swelling. Especially lately within the last year, which has really hindered my range.
Glad it was helpful!
Can you please do another video about the subject 😊
Oh yeah - there will be lots of videos. :D
Hi! A lot of the material relating to TCE out there focuses entirely on the tongue/air part and doesn't talk about the lips. Lee Adams used to say "the spit buzz isn't an embouchure" and, even as a loud advocate for this system, I entirely agree. I learnt a lot from the earlier double pedal tones (einsetzen/ansetzen) and legacy Superchops (1980s) material, which is very focused on a forward, padded, relaxed embouchure position. Lee would also say that you can't even do the TCE tongue position properly unless the lips are doing the right thing and, again, I'd be inclined to agree.
There's a lot to be learned from the legacy Superchops book - particularly the pictures of the three embouchure types. Something it highlights is that the Maggio "pucker" is not the thing you're talking about here. Although it leads people in basically the right direction of getting the chops away from the teeth it doesn't provide the right kind of resistance, which is why it then needs to be coupled with tongue arch in order to work.
Spot on, Rich! Great commentary!
Yes, I believe the upper lip needs to be lifted slightly. Leon Merian called it ‘the sneer’. Pops M says the part you want vibrating is the little flap inside the upper lip. Ice cream cone is good! You lift your lip a bit. Claude Gordon approach is combo tongue level and TCE, although he avoided embouchure theory and let the routines let the chops develop naturally. Good work!
From what I can see - TCE and tongue level can't be used at the same time...
For me, the tongue level ( forward and higher ) continues very naturally to TCE as needed for range. For low and mid range all that’s required is tongue level. Depending on lower back blowing muscle strength, the front on the tongue naturally continues its path forward and pushes out the lower lip. Claude, I believe didn’t love this, as it can hinder the lip vibration. He believed, with proper blowing strength and technique, tongue level - once perfected, was enough. He said after a long day ‘my lips aren’t tired, my back is tired from all that blowing’. 2 ¢
Hello there mate! I think the second way you played the trumpet, it resonates more, which I think you got a better tone quality. By the way, do you have a Lotus Trumpet or AR Resonance Trumpet for sale? Cheers!
Yup - I agree. Lips forward = much better sound.
And yes - I do have Lotus and AR trumpets for sale at www.erniewilliamson.com
Interesting stuff, have you tried the Turbowood just to see as I think it helps. I don’t get swollen lips anymore
I have played one, but not for enough time to know if it has any effects in swelling... Interesting... 🧐
What about the The roll in roll out ?
Or Einzetzen and Aunsetzen
What’s your opinion Bahb Civiletti’s exercises in his TCE training book 😊
Roll in/Roll out is different than Enzetzen and Aunsetzen...
And I don't have Bahb's book... I should probably get it...
Sorry, it bugs me when that you repeatedly use the jardgon "TCE or TC". Why not say "Tongue levels or tongue control"?
Man, you obviously know what it means. What’s the problem?
Because Tongue level is NOT the same thing as TCE... But your question might make a good future video!
@@erasermouthvids actually it looks like they don't know what it means... Tongue Controlled Embouchure is not tongue levels.