Hard-Boiled - Why Are There So Many Gritty Video Games? - Extra Credits
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Why are there so many "dark" video games nowadays? Why do we keep making--AND playing them? Often times developers and consumers can confuse "dark" as a substitute for "maturity" when there are better ways of conveying thought-provoking depth.
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(Original air date: June 6, 2012)
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I felt this quote was relevant:
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” C.S. Lewis
Why would anyone want to make games more like movies?
I saw a movie once. The gameplay was TERRIBLE.
I know it's just one big cutscene
+Bartosz Syrocki kept mashing all the buttons trying to skip but I COULDN'T
I beat one in an hour!
The graphics are TERRIBLE!
+temperededge the order 1886??
"When I became a man I put away childish things. Including the urge to seem very grown up." -C.S. Lewis.
And thus this video. ;)
And thus this video. ;)
I believe it was Mister Lewis himself who penned the idea that seeking out "mature" things or trying to "be" mature are actually signs of immaturity.
Well said. I thought of CS Lewis too. He was a grown man, but he liked fairy tales. Good for him.
@@luspearsoram1507 GK Chesterton was practically an exaggerated version of CS Lewis on that front if you want to read about more people who are like that!
Some 10 years ago a gaming magazine wrote a joke article called "Max Payne 3: Even Older and Meaner". It turned out more accurate than I ever thought.
Was it game informer and their thing with sacred cows?
You can't use this video as a way to justify the article, you weren't shown much evidence on how it is "Older and Meaner", just that the person behind Extra Credits also said it is "Older and Meaner", but with a few more details.
Have you guys ever considered doing an April Fool's episode where you shuffle up the roles you normally take in episodes? For example, James could do the narration, David could do the art, and one of your artists could do the planning/scripting... just a thought.
Not to stir the dust on an ancient proclamation, but a video with the roles reversed would really not be a good video, interesting sure but they got those jobs for a reason
That would be a blast! I'd love to see that :D
I think there's a game idea here. A cel shaded funny animal character is brought into the gritty, dark world of...any grimey game and the mission is to help everyone cheer the fuck up. Like, literally painting the town red, playing pranks...or would that just be a Joker game
Like what if the Care Bears entered sin city? Green light this!
Mike White more like Animaniacs in Sin City.
Yes! Like, imagine the earners kissing marv. If we can have Archie vs predator I don't see how this couldn't work
ECL28E Like this:
chadrocco.deviantart.com/art/Walk-down-the-right-Artist-Alley-299268283
ECL28E I would play the shit out of that.
"BUT HOW IS THAT NOT MATURE IT GETS US A MATURE RATING FROM THE ESRB" -- A game developer somewhere, probably
it isnt mature at all
i think that fighting for a greater goal than yourself is mature
*facepalm*
The sad thing is you're probably right.
You want a game that uses a grimmer, darker, tone that actually creates a more mature feel? The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. It is literally a game about death, loss, and acceptance. And it's incredibly creepy.
***** IP
***** He just described allot of films.
+GallantBlade475 Forget "being mature" as some epitomic goal. I say the most mature thing here is for Extra Credits to not have a prejudice against gritty, dark aesthetics. Games are about enjoying the experience, not having a story-driven excuse for everything.
Ryan Bissonnette You're right in saying games are about the experience, but are you really gonna enjoy a game that doesn't act like its predecessors and has unengaging characters?
GallantBlade475 Is it? I felt we saw it that way, over thinking a game that had a year Development. I'm not sure if that's what they intended.
0:41Sonic The Edgehog
Wait, are you British?
Mi Ga nope.
Kelly Hacker Just checking.
Good one!
RUNNING AROUND AT THE SPEED OF GROUND!!!
Or as the Fourth Doctor says, there's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes.
I think this is a great argument against people who scream and shout for a more "mature" Zelda game ("mature" to them meaning basically Gears of War or Call of Duty but with swords). Without projecting I've seriously seen people say they can't enjoy Zelda games because they're "too adult to look at such goofy imagery." That, to me, is the tell-tale sign that they're actually not mature at all, that they're so insecure with their own maturity that they need their media to supplement it for them. Being able to embrace a whimsical fantasy setting at an adult age without feeling ashamed or forcibly detached is much more mature and self-balanced than demanding everything be grey and overly serious. Besides, Zelda already has an incredible serious and mature entry called Majora's Mask, and it pulls it all off without resorting to any of our current boring tropes.
Really? People seriously want this? I've never heard of that and frankly I wish I hadn't. That's absolutely foolish. What do these people want, Zelda if it was Game of Thrones? Not only do I agree with everything you say (Majora's mask is an absolute masterpiece and I cannot WAIT for Majora 3D) I really think that making a Zelda game dark and gritty would make it no longer a Zelda game. I honestly can't imagine them having the same dungeon gameplay but with a crap ton of monster blood, scantily clad Hylian girls, or a scarred and grizzled Link. That would be awful. And I'm willing to bet Long time Z fans would absolutely hate it. Look how bent out of shape they got over Wind Waker XD
Edit: The more I think about it the more this is starting to sound like a College Humor video. Someone please make a video or comic strip of that idea: "If Legend of Zelda was bit by the GrimDark Bug"
They're maturity-signaling, something common among those insecure.
I mean, I’d like a serious sword fighting game with actual stances and stuff like that, but Zelda doesn’t fit the bill.
"Blood, guts, drugs and nudity do not equal to maturity"
Take notes, Zack Snyder.
Franklin Falco nope
Except that Micheal Bay uses all those and more plus some of the most awful scratch that, THE MOST HELLISHLY BAD AND SLOGGISH WRITING I have *ever* experienced to a boorish, juvenile, and frankly vomit-inducing degree.
araknidude But I enjoyed Megatron coming back to life like 5 times.
Snyder knows that. His works use those but they are surface level stuff. The actual maturity comes from what the work discusses. Man of Steel is about what challenges a real Superman would face, for example
Hell, Avatar the Last Airbender is truly mature. You don’t have to aim at adults to be mature. True maturity, in my opinion, is handling complex topics with an even hand, which ATLA does great. Take lessons video game makers!
It's sort of hard to explain, but there's also an issue on the flipside, where any cartoony colourful game is always aimed at kids. I mean, don't get me wrong, I play plenty of kids games and I don't care that I do, but at the same time the developer's most likely not gonna listen to your wants and needs since your not the target demographic.
I mean, I was honestly surprised that the creator of Kingdom Hearts said it was aimed at teenagers and adults. I assumed the marketers would be all like "Hurr it's got Disney aim it at kids", but nope, the creator understood that older people can enjoy colourful cartoony games too. I want to see more of that in the industry.
Almost all of Pixar's movies are fit for all ages. Movies like Walle and Up speak to the entire audience. They don't talk down to the children. And they don't feel the need to make "you'll get it when you're older" just to force maturity. Same go's to Disney XD's finest cartoons, like Gravity Falls and Phines and Ferb. A whole family can sit down and enjoy the show together.
Cartoon Network's shows like Adventure Time, Amazing World of Gumball, Regular Show, Clarence, and Steven Universe are also fantastic examples.
By the way, there is a you-tube channel called Lewtoons made for older cartoon lovers too. I would recommend you check it out.
Oops, while typing I kind of forgot that the topic is video games, not shows.
Julia Martines Well yeah, but what I was saying with Kingdom Hearts, Nomura said the target audience is teens and adults, but it's still colourful and fun. I want more of that. This post was originally about games, but I'm gonna quickly go off on a tangent that I'd like it more for animated tv shows. These days all the cartoons aimed at adults are all edgy and crude. The Simpsons (back when it was good) understood you could have an adults cartoon without being explicit or super-serious. That's kind of what I'm referring to on my original post, but with games instead.
MagcargoMan
Aside from age inappropriate content there isn't really a difference between a cartoon for children and a cartoon for adults. Theres no maximum age where one must stop watching Steven Universe and Amazing World of Gumball, or where one can no longer play Pokémon, Minecraft, & Animal Crossing. Many colorful cartoons simply do not need to target a certain age group.
Julia Martines I know, but I want to watch something aimed at adults. I can play Pokemon and watch SpongeBob all I want, but I'm not the target audience and that means the creator's aren't gonna listen to adult fans.
I remember when Pokemon Black and White 2 came out and there was this whole controversy where it looked like the bad guy was gonna kill you with an ice attack but then it turned out he was only gonna freeze you alive (but it doesn't matter what option he was going to do because he' stopped before he can do it), and how it felt lame because this guy was pretty evil and it's clear he was only held back due to the target audience.
I can't exactly express it right, but what I want is rare and not enough people do it. It's not just games, it applies to animation too.
Bioshock was an EXCELLENT example of darkness done right. You can't put things like gore, nudity or swearing into a game without a specific purpose.
Extra Credits, would you PLEASE revisit this topic, as well as religion, through Bioshock? I would love a 2-part episode that shows what Bioshock did correctly to emphasize the tools covered in this video.
Guys, if you want to see it too, Like this comment!
Hell yeah! :D
riquelme376 I was about to comment "YEAH YEAH YEAH" when i saw a comment of mine from 4 months ago saying more or less the same thing.
Thats...
Disappointing...
Like wanting to give a comment a like and finding out that you already liked it.
DARKGORZ Do you mean, " Would you KINDLY"?
I know it's tacky...
Need 20cc's of DOSH! STAT! HAAA, I hadn't thought about that. XD
Witcher 3 had a fantastic bit where you just have a snowball fight with Ciri, great example of levity in a game that's largely about ugliness and the miscarriage of justice.
"Nihilism does not equal maturity"
AKA Hatred in a nutshell
Gritty setting + sense of humor?
Metal gear.
*drops mic*
Jimmy Keffer yes! the entire metal gear series is both totally wacky and totally dark
Totally! I mean, Metal Gear Solid 2 has pretty boi Raiden on one hand spouting some hysterical lines like "IT'S LIKE BEING IN A NIGHTMARE YOU CAN'T WAKE UP FROM." And then the end of the game comes, and, without spoiling, you have to rethink every single choice in your life.
This is where the phantom pain fails. It lacks that classic mgs craziness. For example:
Mgs1 ocelot: *is a cocky son of a bitch
Mgs2 ocelot: I knew all of the plans while none of you knew. Ha ha ha
Mgs3 ocelot: it's just a blank bro
Mgs4 ocelot: The system is MINE *proceeds to do machine gun mofements with his arms
Mgsv ocelot: I'm just that guy at mother base
that monologue Max says in the end though sort of indicates he grew out of his depression and just kinda enjoyed life as it is
Things that grown-ups enjoy:
- Silly jokes
- Cartoons
- Fairy tales
- Plush toys
- Dressing up avatars
- Candy and ice cream
- Cute bunnies and kittens
- Etc.
Now I want Hard-Boiled Eggs.
same
When you described violence, drugs and sexuality as powerful tools you had a picture of a chainsaw, which is actually a pretty good analogy for these things. If they're used well it's an incredibly effective and useful tools but if used badly are just disastrous
Howabout a game that uses humor and lightheartedness to tell a rather grim, mature story? 'cuz mother 3.
I'd say Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons comes the closest to that.
Hionimi Mother 3 is the only good example.
I cant think of a game like that, but i can think of a movie: life is beautiful.
The 2019 Modern Warfare reboot could learn something from this. The developers had YEARS to find and watch this video, but nope they chose to push the grit to the extreme.
The best way to make anything dark is to use light, bits and pieces of light hearted scenes and elements makes everything else feel more dark. Like a little kid's inocence in a zombie apocalypse or a joke a character makes with their dying breath
One of my favorite series is actually Winnie the Pooh for being such a pleasant and loving series that can actually be kinda profound without losing that. Another one of my favorite series is The Walking Dead, especially the first season of the Telltale Games adaption. The Walking Dead, you could argue, is about the complete opposite of Winnie the Pooh thematically and stylistically.
I see no reason why I can't enjoy both. One's for the light moments of life, where problems don't have to be huge or mind blowing. The other is for the more weighed down moments of life, where the main goal is survival in a world that is out to kill you.
NOTE:
Max Payne (a character used as an example of "hard boiling" for the episode) is noted to have suffered PTSD from his earlier years (link will be at the bottom), which became more pronounced after 2001 (the year Max Payne 1 takes place in), which had been kept under the surface after his family being murdered in the prologue, which (at least in my opinion) started Payne down a slippery slope down to very severe problems such as substance abuse and depression.
That sucks for him massively.
The child pretending to be an adult is really the most childish, and the adult whose willing to be kiddish is really the most mature.
0:42
The series has also recently suffered from the extreme opposite as well.
I'm twenty three and I really don't like dark, gritty, nihilistic games. Never have because they put me in a depressed mood. The only remotely dark game I really like is LOZ Majora's Mask, and that has a shit ton of humor and silly things sprinkled in, along with bright colors.
Ya majoras mask is one of the most grimdark games out there but it still maintains its whimsical sense of humor. If anything the whimsical elements of the game help to offset the more heavy parts of the game without taking away from either the fun and sad bits. Another good one is Links awakening.
Majora's mask has been so much fun for me, I haven't gotten to Great Bay yet, but I LOVED the boss fight with Goht because it was so unique, since for once the boss very seldom directly attacks you and you have to chase him. It was a difficult battle, but not punishing.
Ya, figuring out where all the masks are is a challenge but def fun. I remember playing the game when it first came out but was not able to finish it because well, family didnt approve of video games. What i do remember is try getting the mask of truth from the spider house in the swamp so you can talk to all those sheikah stones as soon as you can. You dont even need to get the hookshot yet to finish it (though it does make it easier lol). Those sheikah stones are very helpful when youre lost or in the middle of a quest and dont know what to do next. I will say that the great bay temple is quite the challenge, but fun. Now im just trying to figure out the canyon area, trying to figure out how to get past those mummy things, because they keep killing me :(
If you liked Majora, try Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne for the PS2
I think it's maturity comes from the characters and the emotions they and the player go through, and that's what I think maturity should be. Pamela's dad, Anju and Kafei, even Skull Kid all have such bittersweet stories and reasons for their actions, and those are just a few examples. The impending doom posed by the moon and all the dealing with death makes it grim, the mystery behind the Majoras Mask and the child bosses adds to its darkness. There's no need for explicit gore or profanities, and I appreciate that.
0:39 I personally believe that Prince of Persia was a special case, they wanted to have a huge contrast between the first and second game so that the last one would be this epic finale where in the end the prince learns from his journey really changes for the better as a character
I'm probably opening a can of worms here, but a lot of this video makes just as much sense if you swap out "Max Payne 3" with "Hatred". Omnicidal edgelords, whee.
i bought and played both portals when i was 12 and finished them. the humor is so great and the puzzles feel so incredibly satisfying when you finally beat them.
This. This is why I play Nintendo games.
This is why I play Magicka and rebuke any [zombie-survival-simulation-fps-crafting] game
+Pete HrapStick Honestly, I don't mind as long as there is fun to be had and a community to make me aware of the issue in the first place.
Pete HrapStick I don't care. I choose to show that I can handle adult themes by not acting like a child when presented with the childish ones. I enjoy a game for its worth and that's all that matters.
Pete HrapStick I don't know what part of my previous statement led you to believe that I couldn't handle censorship. I also don't appreciate it when it is overused, but I don't let that cloud my judgement of whether or not I like a game.
Pete HrapStick Is the removal of that one completely meaningless feature really enough to get you to hate the entire game?
I guess part of the problem here is that no one can really agree upon what it means for a human being to be mature. I mean, I suppose we all agree that the idea of maturity is to reach a point where the mind, body, and soul are fully grown or "ripened", but I don't think we all agree upon what that looks like.
But besides that, if to be mature means to reach maximum growth capacity, do we really want a game where the characters have reached the end of their development as characters? Isn't one of the most engaging aspects of narrative to see a character grow as a person -- or possibly the player to grow as a person?
And in "real life", are we ever really fully mature? Can anyone ever honestly say at any point that they have become the epitome of what it means to be human? How do we know for sure that we've truly maximized our capacity as individuals?
Hell, forget about _wanting_ a mature game -- is it even possible to _have_ a mature game?
+Intrafacial86 Maturity, to me, is not having a prejudice against gritty, dark aesthetics. I think it's very IMMATURE for Extra Credits to have such a prejudice and to dishonestly push their personal preference onto us, stating in this video as if it's "just a fact". Trying to be "mature" is BS. I want to enjoy games of various types, that includes well-structured stories AND dark, gritty games that are overly violent and sexual just for the sake of being overly violent and sexual.
I thought the slo-mo gun shot gimmick was pretty cool & i never got tired of watching it. It reminded me of the gore in God or War. It didn't hit me emotionally like the kills i did in Last of Us, but it was still very much entertaining for me.
Well, Max does kind of redeem himself, with the saving the girl thing. Passos and Giovanna get to move on with their lives and have a family, something Max never could have.
The funniest thing about all of this is that Blizzard and Nintendo both built multi billion dollar companies on the back of games that were cartoonish or family friendly.
I know, right? And what's also funny is Naughty Dog goes against on what exactly makes something mature by producing The Last of Us: Part II.
I felt that Rockstar did a pretty damn godd job recreating this ambience. There still is some self-referencial humour in it (the piano, for instance), but overall, these moments only make the actual story events all the more serious and captivating. And I really like it this way.
Speaking as someone who has genuinely fallen in love with the character of Max Payne, it breaks my heart that you can't appreciate the character transition he made in three. The very optimism you praised him for in the first couple games did nothing to change his family, friends, and love interest being killed. This left him a broken shell of a man in sharp contrast to the happy-go-lucky kids he was responsible for protecting. And when the call to action was made he responded valiantly at the chance of redemption. Just a thought. I desperately hope you read this and respond...
Yeah...no. He's generic and one dimensional. I could sum up almost all of his lines:
"I WANT TO DIE!!"
"MY LOVED ONES ARE DEAD!!!"
And now for his actions:
drink beer
murder bad guys
take painkillers
try to be Frank Castle and fail.
I am a teenager growing up in the fast shift games have reaching during this time, and i think this is one of the best points you have made. I love games that make me feel like I am making a serious, adult interaction with other characters (LA Noire, Mass Effect etc.) and I think this is a magic episode you have made. This video hits spot on with what I want from a story driven video games. This maybe the best and most accurate videos you have posted. You guys are awesome. Keep up the good work
I agree entirely about the whole teenage assumptions bit.
I became 17 rather recently, so I'm about as teenage as it gets at this point, and while I do like and lean on the whole metal and grunge motif, I loooove Team Fortress 2.
TF2 doesn't need to act like it's a super serious game with deep characters back-stories and avant-garde material. It's because it was actually built around good game mechanics, competitive fast-paced gameplay, a bright and stylized design, and authentically entertaining characters. I don't have to see guts and gore because it's genuinely *FUN*. It's the reason I've been playing it for the past 6 years.
It's absolutely true that the marketing geniuses that run the stocks and business part of the gaming industry (and other entertainment industries) assume that because we teens are striving out to be our own people and grow into adults that we want what's "mature". But when I want to take a few hours to unwind and play something fun, I'd rather be propelling myself with high-yield explosives into an unsuspecting player only to bludgeon him with a frying pan, then tossing around in a hyper-realistic modern military shooter blowing the brains out of distinguishable and faceless soldiers.
I hate generalization towards teenagers. As people grow up they begin to show more variation from others of the same age-bracket, so grouping us all into one gloomy negative mass is silly. You might as well ignore anything anyone over the age of 70 says because "They're all senile nutcases".
TheBelgiumeseKid but everyone over 70 are SENILE NUTCASES, probably.
respect is over rated
miller repin I hope you meant that as a joke xD
riquelme376 Ooof course I'm serious just to show you how serious I am, here is a present (gives you a paper bag filled with shit)
Tf2 heavy in the comics: Mature and concearned about him and his familly
Tf2 heavy in the game: ENTIRE TEAM, IS BABYS
"Everything Nintendo does" Yes, including there main shooter franchise
"We'll get a game that uses a grimmer, darker tone to actually create a mature feel". How fitting that this was made in the year that would give us Spec Ops
At 4:52 in the video, I'm extremely happy that there's a picture of The Manliest Brony with his Celestia toy. Major kudos. Bronies, in my experience of interacting with them outside the Internet, are some of the best examples of mature people that enjoy something that is considered immature. :)
I really don't like how games today have gotten super-dark. I don't think I can get into games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution or God of War, mainly because they seem like they're played 100% straight, and there IS no levity. This is why I'd rather play games like Bayonetta and No More Heroes. Because they're still QUIRKY.
Human revolution does have a pretty serious setting and story, but there is levity to be found. Start stealing things around the Sarif Industries office, or hack into Pritchard's computer, you'll see what I mean.
What do you mean"straight"?
Michael Stamper "Straight" in this context means "serious".
RocMegamanX Thanks, now your post makes sense. Also with the examples you used, I have to agree, cheers!
I personally found God of War 1 to be a rather enjoyable shallow ultraviolent hack n' slash with interesting lore and fantastic creature design and combat, so I don't know what you're talking about.
I feel like teen-agers, like myself, usually enjoy tales of growing up, 'cause, you know, we're deep in it...
Come join the immature-for-life club!
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Do you have shirts?
Pastlife17 Well, I like George Carlin and he once talked about how he'd never join a club that required you to wear a certain hat. He'd only join a club in which hats were simply optional. Therefore, no, we do not have shirts for it might make members feel that they have to wear them.
I listen to George Carlin too. And I want a shirt. Give me a god damn shirt.
Pastlife17 ok
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Great video. I want to bring up Borderlands because it has some interesting things to add to the topic. A lot of people scoffed at the series because it has cel-shaded graphics, like they wouldn't want to play that because it's silly or something. It does have a more cartoon-ish looking vibe to it, and the game itself has tons of humor and comedy all throughout it, but also contains those mature and adult themes that people thought it wouldn't have. Not to mention that while it can be funny and over-the-top, it still has darker themes and a legit story that has hard-hitting and dramatic moments.
"Let me start by saying Max Payne 3 is alright. Now let me spend the next five minutes telling you why it's awful."
Not that I have any interest in the Max Payne series, I just thought it was funny EC started with that disclaimer, and then made Max Payne 3 sound like a game I'd never want to play.
"Hi! I'm from the future! In the future Sonic is a serial killer and Mario is absolutely ruthless!"
If Nihilism doesn't work, please explain the success of the Joker.
The dude is funny as hell and has a personality, albeit twisted. Yeah... he wished death and destruction because none of it matters, but guess what... he ain't destroying the world in a boring way, locked up in his house. Instead, he goes out of his way to make his cynical, twisted and kinda-funny challanges to the world and batman as a way to express himself in this meaningless world. That's what makes him intresting. His honest expression of himselft and his goals. Nihilism is only the underlying cuase. In Max Payne Nihilism is in the forefront and doesn't allow for any meaningful expression of his desires. Just the boring desire to end it all.
Franco Bongiovanni Thank you.
Hahaha XD Daniel's voice was amazing at 4:56
"Ah that's little kids stuff I'm way to grown up for that now"
Did you hear thata SEGA?! You could have done Shadow The Hegedhog more mature in a right way!!!
(Insert Sonic Forces here)
I guess they didn´t hear that.
This is an old video, but still relevant 5 years later. These guys are great!
Im 17 and i like pokemon. Thank you
its not that surprising i dont remember where i heard this but here is how the world works "Elementary/Middle School: Yeah pokemon" "High School: you like pokemon, huh loser." "College: Fuck yeah pokemon
Aboy5768
Possible explanation,
Elementary school: Being a child.
High School: I have to go with the flow or else everyone finds me pathetic.
Collage: I discovered who I am and I like pokemon.
LOL Collage, surely you mean College?
J. Moonstorm Mariano does it fucking matter, I spelled what it sounded like to me at the time.
Aboy5768 Geez, that was uncalled for. It's not like I was being a douche about it, I just thought it was funny reading it as Collage. I can delete my comment if it offended you that much.
I think this episode happens to also show the divide people feel between the Marvel Cinema Universe and DC's movie outings. The difference between how the two companies are trying to make their heroes feel mature.
Oh, and sanitarium does the grim part very well. It handles mature themes, like forgiving ones self, morality and the understanding of moral and immoral actions, the tragedy of events. These are delivered through symbolism and metaphors, which, throughout the game, become clearer. Even with its dark, confusing theme where you encounter concepts as grim as children being used as fuel and food to an alien plant that killed all the adults and mutating the children, and at the same time using this to convey how serious the actions of your enemy are.
It's a horror, but it doesn't have anything like jump scares. You can't really die and even when you do you don't loose any progress. The game is simply creepy and true as a comment on the medical sciences. It's one of those games that may or may not change your perspectives on everyday life, like the credibility of your doctors words, the feeling of loosing someone close or the empathy for the people with mental illnesses.
Not saying it's the best example
0:41 That sound you made sums up all of my thoughts on what the Sonic games are like now.
I really like your concept of : maturity = accepting your childishness.
I'll use that.
At work :)
4:40 *CS LEWIS* “When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
What about charismatic or optimistic nihilism? That sounds pretty interesting
That's called Absurdism. The idea that if nothing matters then everything is careless and we can do what we want. It derives from it.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, felt like a child. Now that I have become a man, I have to put away childish things. But I unpacked most of them when I got there." - Ian McConville / Matt Boyd.
It's a shame because the writer of Max Payne 3 did such a great job with Red Dead Redemption. Sure the world of RDR was also pretty dark but that's because it was the wild west. The wild west was a fucked up time period but John Marston was also a very likeable character who you felt for and he was also surrounded by interesting, funny and cool characters so it's a shame that he couldn't bring some of that to Max Payne 3
SpikeJet2736 It's true, RDR knew to break up the dark tone with humor and the occasional moment of wonder. Also, you are absolutely right about John Marston. He was a well rounded character who was both relatable and humorous. Hopefully Rockstar will deliver another great story before too long.
+SpikeJet2736 I love dark themese just for the sake of dark themes. I don't demand a story excuse for what's happening or that the game "balance out" with some kind of positivity. It just feels like anti-gritty, anti-dark prejudice to me. I think I'll reinstall Max Payne 3 just to spite this prejudice. And maybe Manhunt 1 too.
7:35 love the ending soundtrack
Why does James' seal of approval have tentacles on it?
Is the hydra logo...or that is how it looks like
because he is into hentai clearly.
He is a massive fan of the works of H. P. Lovecraft and this has been shown on this channel on various videos, normally on the topic of how nobody uses it right. His seal of approval makes sense in this because if he slaps that of something Lovecraft related, then it better use Lovecraft effectively.
Still doesn't stop it from looking like hydra though.
that is not for mortal men to know
Becuase he is.. CTHULU! Or TULU, Or whatever he is called now.
These videos aged like fine wine
what i think a teen is: the bblic view of teens + addult + kid. all at the same time.
they can think about the darkest stuff in the world and they will laugh at someone tripping on a banana.
they will think about sex half the time but are also very serius.
they are never taken serious and never had to be serius but are expected to be as mature as 60 year olds. and want that themselves.
take a guess why they can come across as confused from time to time.
polish that comment up and then I'll be impressed.
Gabe Merritt o look, an insult, sure, i'll listen to that.
+vinx.909 I didn't want to be a grammar nazi. for all know you are learning English.
+vinx.909 It is a little hard to follow in its current form.
Gabe Merritt that pretty much fits with the subject. really, there is no real way to explain it, only a way to understand it.
I think Lisa: The Painful is a good example of maturity done right, with it's mix of dark but hilarious humour, and then properly following it up with a well constructed gut punch of a choice, I'd say Lisa is maturity done right.
3:39 "Let's all laugh at an industry that never learned anything tee hee hee"
stop. NEIN.
The final Dan's word was like a dot at the end of s perfectly narrated story. I released my finger from a play button. And then it was over.
I disagree with the video don't know exactly how to go about saying this but there are more examples of the opposite (deus ex:HR, tomb raider), the examples given and in question seem to be victims of something else entirely whatever it may rushed product, poor writing/script, different dev team, sequel cash in, to generalize all those as being hard boiled doesn't really make sense.
The other companies don't realize that Nintendo's audience isn't just kids. In fact, I would wager to guess that there are more adults and late teens playing Nintendo games than there are young teens and children playing them.
Personally, I think The Incredibles was an incredibly mature movie. Given that it involved suicide as a major plot development, the implications of marital infidelity, and even the emotional pains of losing a loved one, it touched on serious topics while still managing to tell an interesting story and offer a good time.
Sadly though, my father does not enjoy anything with semblance to fun or kid friendliness in his movies and he only watches attention to gritty action movies and when he used to buy games all he would get are gorey, gritty shooters, GTA, Tom Clancy games, etc. Just anything that was serious and had a gun, and as a kid I never understood why.
I suppose "Insecurity" is the appropriate word to describe your dad's mindset. It's common among gamers who waste their time trying to act "mature" through (often low-quality) games that offer little more than gratuitous violence, T&A, and profanity that add nothing to the game itself.
"Nihilism does not equal maturity"
Shadow the Hedgehog did not listen.
I tend to see the HD Generation of all Rockstar Games as a whole: Max Payne has the best Gunplay mechanics in 3rd person for both single and multiplayer, Red Dead had revolunionary open lobby system and coop multiplayer missions, and they learned driving physics in midnight. Then they brought it all together in GTA 5. totally worth it.
I disagree with Nihilism not being an interesting point of a character: It is; If done right.
Just look at the killbot (forgot his name) in KotoR 2... He basically wants to murder every living "fleshbag" but he's explained WHY he wants that in a good and somewhat humerus way.
Problem with most nihilistic characters is that they are not truly nihilistic as they just are whiny, whining isn't true nihilism. True nihilism is explained disdain for most if not all establishments and parts of society. This can be a very interesting basis for a character if done right because beneath all this there must still be a reason for them to continue living. A person who honestly wants to die will kill themselves, a nihilist does not carelessly want to die; So why does he/she continue?
This is a question of character design.
HK-47: "Explanation: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.
Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticule, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds."
I believe watching these is educational, not only for people who work with games, but people who work with any kind of fiction. I've definately learned a lot from these videos.
How about stop trying to define maturity, excluding things that you don't like (like nihilism), and just admit that some people like hard-boiled noir atmosphere where, like in more peaceful games, there are their own archetypes (such as cruelty, femme fatale, long coats). Or we can try to argue that long coats aren't mature
On the other hand, you can take the yolks of hard boiled eggs, mix them with mayonnaise pepper and garlic, put a scoop of that back in the whites, and have yummy deviled eggs.
I wonder how you could metaphorically do that to a Video Game title like Max's...
I like hard boiled Sonic games like Shadow The Hedgehog and Unleashed
I liked Sonic Colors better.
Unleashed was absolutely horrible! It's been almost as bad as Sonic 06. Stupid werehog...
Have you played it?
TvSonic Serbia
Oh yes I did! But not the whole thing. Luckily I could re-sell it. I mean, I'm a huge Sonic fan, but these werehog levels were so terrible, not even the great daytime levels (yes, THOSE were really nice!) could motivate me to beat Sonic through the nighttime.
Wait,PS2,wii,xbox or ps3???Because PS2 and Wii are better thna the rest?
I agree about slow mo close ups so much. I just mash B to cancel them, but sometimes (right before the cutscene) they don't even let you skip said close ups.
Umm, relatable to the Jak and Daxter series. First one was fun, and light, second one took on a hopeful but very dark/bleak environment, the third one felt like all hope was lost! I liked the corny original the best.
I feel so bad about that series. The first one was great but after that it not only got grimdark'd but it ALSO got GTA'd because back then literally every game had to have GTA elements shoehorned in. Such a waste. I barely got into the 2nd before dropping it and didn't touch the 3rd.
Power Max Honestly, once you got past the shitty gritty dialogue, the 2nd game was actually quite enjoyable. If nothing else, its interesting to look at the game and see how creative they were at warping the mechanics present in the original into the GTA-esque mechanics.
Honestly, I think the grit and hard-boil added something to the Arkham series. It allowed players to see the Dark Knight, the Clown Prince of Crime, and many other icons of the DC Universe to grow with them. And the grittier setup allowed for more over-the-top action that the traditional Detective Comics wouldn't adapt to.
... hardboiling Max Payne....
Max Payne was already about as hardboiled as you could get. After starting at the end, the first thing you learn is his wife and infant child have been shot and killed in his home. It's a noire, it's hardboiled, that's the point. Each one really just adds to the formula.
Except, as this video explained, it was tongue-in-cheek in the first two. In 3, it's almost as overly-darkened as the godawful Tomb Raider reboot.
Your discussion about maturity is spot on
7:40
And then Spec Ops: The Line came along...
This is a great example of how video games and movies are similar in the sense that everything in here applies to movies
Sry dude but I can´t agree with your words about CoD. To quote Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "... as the two giants of modern war gaming stand head to head: battlefield armed with a relistic, faithfully depicted sniper rifle and modern warfare with a neon space bazooka that fires venomous hedgehogs...". You see, CoD never tried to be overly realistic or "mature". Yea, with the nuclear explosion in cod4 the showed some self awareness but all further installment of the series got more and more hillarious (and offensive in some way). So they are still trying to sell some "fun" but i dont know how funny it is to mow down hundrets of foreign people after the 100th time...
Little sidenote: I love your videos. Good job and keep it on^^
I disagree that nihilism is incapable of being mature. Nihilism comes hand in hand with idealism, being that people dissatisfied with the world being the ones who would put in the most effort to change it.
Welcome to existentialism!
Dan's not talking about nihilism as a mindset, but the AAA games industry's interpretation of nihilism -- which is to say, the kind of nihilism they can exploit.
Thank you very much EC. These episodes really help me out with my writing when I'm struggling with whether or not I'm doing the right thing with my work.
I agree with the points made in the later parts of this video. I think that we need more levity in this industry.
That's one of the major reasons that I love indie games. Indies seem to be much more willing to be silly. In fact, humor plays a major role in many (but not nearly all) indie games. That's one of my favorite things. ^_^
That being said, there *is* a place for hard-boiled games. As said in the video, a game *can* use a hard-boiled tone to create a more mature feeling. Most AAA games seem to use hard-boiling to make something that only *looks* mature, though.
Still, I prefer games that have a more lighthearted tone. With my real life being rather rough right now (money problems, etc.), it's nice to be able to escape into a more carefree world now and then.
The voice you make at 4:56 :D Especially with this voicefilter... Cracks me up every time :D
I'd MUCH rather have an immature game over a mature game. Would you like to play a dark, dull and witty game or a bright, colourful and fun game?
Lee Brandon immature
This is pretty much why I love the Saints Row franchise so much. They aren't afraid to be silly or over the top, and the characters, environments, and weapons they create really reflect this especially in the new game that's coming out.
Indeed,most nowdays games are bullsh%t!
Not all games are bullshit.
Garrett Oflaherty "most"
except for nintendo games like mario zelda pokemon metroid animal crossing and jrpgs
Exactly. It's amazing how many games get lost in that obsession and forget _to be fun_. One example I saw was a friend who played the latest COD, got bored, then playing Transformers: War for Cybertron and absolutely loved it. The latter is a very fun game, even if it doesn't push any boundaries it at least has a major sense of fun.
I love EC but I have to say that from the sounds of it you are completely rejecting nihilism as having any legitimate intellectual value.
FritzII ...Your point is? ;)
typacsk Don't you get it? There is no point ;)
+FritzII I also used to believe that nihilism is cool, when I was 16. But then I grew up.
+Nekoko Chan Yeah, I did. It's fucking stupid, and Nietzsche was just a mentally ill person.
Hugh Janus Then why do we live by his philosophy?
I like my eggs hard-boiled, but I don't like my games hard-boiled... UNIVERSE, WHY ART THOU MOCKING ME!?