I was fortunate to be given a CPA2 Lift a couple years ago and can vouch for it's efficiency and any Jobo model, really. Once it's setup, it's ready, and I even have it connected to my floor drain! Developing film is so convenient it's trivial!
I have considered a jobo but I don't have the space or develop enough rolls to economically justify it. I use a Sous vide cooker when I develop c41 and e6, Paterson tanks and a analogue timer, it works great!
I use a sous vide in a large plastic tub when developing color. This works well for me. It takes about 15-20 minutes for the chems to come up to temp. I use that time to load reels.
I learned how to use the Jobo about 10-12 years ago, got to borrow one during grad school, and was fortunate enough to get one of my own about 3 years ago from a mentor. True game changers. I clip my Cinestill TCS-1000 on the side and it speeds up the process even more. Just wish I had a water cooler for my darkroom ...
I bought a Jobo CPP 2 back in the mid-90's and it remains a true workhorse to this day. I use the Expert Drums for 4x5 and 8x10 film and the 25xx tanks for roll film. Before getting the Jobo, I processed all my LF film in trays and after testing the Jobo/Expert Drums for consistency and evenness of development I couldn't believe how much better my negatives came out!
The Expert drums are by far the best way to develop 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 sheets... Absolutely no doubt about that. I had a CPP2 for 20 years as well and developed lots of sheets of film in them.
Great video... There is a caution about the solution amount for people that are not familiar with these Jobo tanks (which I think are the best out there for developing, whether by hand or rotary). You have to be careful that you maintain the minimum amount of stock developer in the solution! This is different from the minimum amount of total solution in the tank (as you mention is mostly shown on the Jobo tanks). This means that people will need to look at the dilution charts for the developer you are using and figure out what the minimum amount of developer is (based on the dilution options for many of the developers) and then determine if you will have enough developer stock solution in the tank when using the minimum required for the Jobo tanks. If it doesn't meet the minimum stock amount, you either need to change the developer solution or increase the amount of working developer in the tank.
Great to see you wearing Marigold gloves as I do! :) I've used Jobos for about 10 years after being given a CPE2. I now have two Jobo CPA2s (long story) and use them for everything from 35mm to 10x8. Love the 2509n for 5x4 and the Jobo Expert 3005 for 10x8. I never got the hang of putting two films on 2500 reels, though, even with the little red clips. Films would often overlap no matter how carefully I loaded them on the reel.
this is exactly what ive been looking for :) been using a storage box with a sous vide for the last 3 years. Just popped on eBay and grabbed a full set with every tank for £250 :))
They're also great for doing colour prints. I use mine for both E-6/C-41 developing and RA-4 with up to 16x12 inch paper which is a nice addition. As you mentioned it makes DD-X economically viable (and you can also use it more than once, they don't recommend it and yet give compensation % for multiple uses...) and also gives a nice repeatability. I found a cheap kitchen timer with some velcro sits perfectly in the space where a 4th knob would be next to the on/off one and makes things a lot easier than a phone with wet hands or gloves. I have to say though the temperature on mine is more of a vague idea than accurate, that thermometer is really necessary if you want one yourself. The lift is handy if you can find one but not by any means vital. Would say that it's probably the best film developing addition I've bought in a long time.
To me the lift is a pain as it’s one more thing to wash out before putting on another batch, and I forgot one time and some blix got into my pre-wash. The only thing it saves is my walking to the sink to tip out the pre-wash.
@@garethVanDagger I’ve never washed my lift once and have never had issues. I just do a few water rinses at the end that are part of my normal process and that water is enough to keep the lift clean. I’m probably my 300+ rolls deep on this thing and run control strips every few batches and have never seen carryover from the lift mess up the next batch.
@@seanc5718 oh I see, so you do your rinses whilst still on the machine? I’ve been taking my drum off and taking it to the sink for the rinse which leaves blobs of blix in the pouring spout part. Your method will mitigate the contamination issues. How do you monitor the temperature? What thermometer do you use? I had a faulty jobo one and ruined a bunch of film so I’m scared now in relation to what thermometer is best
@@garethVanDagger yeah I do a few water rinses on the jobo and then remove the tank and do the rest of the rinsing off the machine. Temperature I'm monitoring the bath with a relatively cheap thermometer, but measuring the developer with a good thermocouple thermometer from thermoworks. I've dialed in my processing with control strips and a densitometer though, it's really the only 100% foolproof way to do it.
Great run down of the CPE2. I love my CPE-2 and CPE-3. I have gotten great results for B&W as well as Kodak Flexicolor C-41. One thing I do is use my TCS1000 to bring my water to a degree or two below your developing temperature. Then use that water to fill the Jobo. The CPE's have a 300 watt heater which is good for holding the temperature or eating the water a few degrees, but they struggle with heating up the water 10 to 15 degrees F. I also level the Jobo before filling completely.
Thanks. I'll probably invest in a sous vide at some point for that. I did hook up a small fish tank pump to help with circulation, which has been nice.
@@KyleMcDougall Ideally you need the plus, its far more cost effective to just replace the whole thing with one ready to go. They come up cheap, i got a complete CPE2+ with lift pretty much mint for £350 recently so keep an eye as they are out there. Enjoy your journey with it, honestly even for b&w 510 pyro dev its made such a difference to the consistency of my negs and takes away a lot of the risk when doing C41 :)
This is a great tool for C41 developing, but for black and white I like the flexibility of hand processing. Standing the tank gives better control of acutance, and tonality. Not an issue with colour film.
Not entirely true. Stand development aside, continuous agitation is no-less flexible, more convenient (especially if using the lift), and temperature control (for all types of film) is a breeze.
@@russellsprout2223 I understand the convenience of processing b/w film by the Jobo rotary processors, and great if the results you are getting work for you. However my comments were intended to be helpful as clearly rotary processors have there limitations. I have been processing film for over 40 years, and recently invested in the Film Developing Cookbook which is known as the bible for b/w film developing. Some interesting points “ Rotary processors are designed for colour developers, which are specifically designed to work when film is exposed to air during processing. The only black and white developers we can recommend for rotary processors are undiluted high-sulfite types like D76, Microphen and Xtol. It is a cornerstone of black and white developing technique that we avoid exposing film to air.” Regarding my point about acutance, quote “ Unfortunately continuous agitation interferes with the formation of sharpness-enhancing edge effects.” In other words films developed in the conventional way with controlled one minute agitation are going to produce sharper negatives. This may not be an issue if you only shoot large format. One final quote” Rotary processing is sub-optimal for all development processes where highly dilute or fragile developers are being used, and that applies to all tanning developers “ I hope this explains why I made my original comments and good luck with your processing.
I'm still using a Paterson tank with a big plastic tub of water and a sous vide... but as far as chemistry goes, I'm pretty pleased with the results I'm getting from the Bellini C41 kit (best price here in the UK seems to be from Nik and Trick photography down in Folkestone)
I've extensively used a CPA2 with lift for both B&W and E6 sheet films (5x7, 8x10). This is the best way to keep products in temperature and reproduce consistent results. Highly recommended !
I use a Jobo tank for my 35mm and 120 film. I don't own the CPE2 and like others use the sous vide approach but if I can find a free or cheap one I'll be all over it. Thanks for the insight Kyle.
Nice timing Kyle, I only picked up a pair of these from the Evil Bay myself a fortnight ago - one working, one not. The broken one had a broken lift and a broken motor. After lots of frustration, I've managed to get the lift working after a strip down, so have fitted it to the good one - no gloves needed now. Sadly, I don't think I'll be able to fix the motor, but I shall strip it down and try anyway . . .
I got a CPA2 (and an additional, nasty one as a donor for the lift kit) a few years ago after processing with a Patterson tank upgraded with a home-made rotation system (a cheap, slow electric motor, a CD, some screws, and some glue). The change in consistency between development methods, for me, was significant. But let me tell you: The CPE/CPA system is just a gateway drug to the ATL1000, which makes the process even nicer. If you get an ATL1000/1500, don't get rid of your CPE/CPA: They are still very useful when developing photographic paper.
Recently bought a filmomat light. Similar workflow but you heat it with a cheap sous vide stick which means perfect temperature consistency and it also takes every kind of drum. It's a bit more expensive than a used CPE2, but imho worth every penny. I love developing RA-4 Prints in old Jobo drums, so much fun and consistent results.
Alternatively if you want something brand new and essentially the same as the CPE2 without the lift head - there’s the Filmomat Light. All you need is a Sousvide for temp control. it’s about $500 and programmable for any sized tank system.
Hi Kyle. The main difference between the CPE and CPP models is that you can purchase a lift that allows you to pour and empty chemistry out of the tanks without having to pull the tank off of the Jobo; and removing and replacing the lid. It basically increases time efficiency. Another difference is that the tanks can hold a larger quantity of film. Cheers!
Just a little correction in regards to development time. With black and white you can as a rule of thumb reduce the developer time by about 15 percent compared to inversion development
Great video Kyle! You make it all look so simple and not nearly as scary as I had thought. Stupid question: did you load the film in the dark? And if so how tricky is this part?
Great to see this video. I have recently gotten the CPE-2 but yet to use it. 2 Questions: 1. Can you reuse the cinestill chemicals again and again since you put them back into the original containers? 2. Would you use the jobo to develop prints?
It's recommended to use C41 developer one shot when doing rotary development. The aggressive agitation heavily oxidizes the developer and reusing it can cause sub par results. People definitely use it that way though so if you're happy with your results when reusing developer that's all that really matters.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard that. I’ve been reusing the Cinestill and adjusting the develop time as per the instructions and have had pretty good results.
@@KyleMcDougall highly recommend reading through Kodaks z131 document w even if you don’t plan on using their chemicals. It’s extremely detailed. The section on rotary development is great to reference.
For C-41 I think an all in one temperature controlled system makes a ton of sense. For those of you that shoot primarily black and white (like me) and temperature is much less of a concern, a simple automated agitator is probably all you need.
Hi Kyle, new subscriber here, I've just been browsing your videos, particularly your Pentax 645 and 67 videos as I too shoot both of those. I also have the Jobo CPE2 which is a great piece of kit, this is a great video with sound advice to those shopping for their first processor. Greetings from Ireland.
By the way - I have found using a supplemental sous vide on the Jobo water basin to be very helpful at getting up to temperature and maintaining temperature. On my older unit it takes quite a while on its own, and the water temp is a bit off.
When I got my cpe-3, the jobo thermometer that came with it was faulty and so the water bath and chemicals were 5-7 degrees Celsius too high and left blotchy marks all over my negatives. With film developing it’s frustrating as it can be a long process of elimination. After ruining 5 rolls of film, it turned out it was the thermometer so I purchased a $2 coffee/milk thermometer which works fine. The version 2 looks much better quality than my CPE-3. The CPE-3 has stickers on the dials, not markings. My sticker wasn’t out on straight so it’s hard to tell where 38 degrees actually is. There’s a place for the thermometer to clip into at the opposite end of the bath which then doesn’t give an accurate reading for where your chemicals are at the other end. For $3,000 AUD I was very disappointed. Surely you should be able to set the temperature accurately and it maintains it reliably like a sous vide. It also takes a long time to heat up unless you fill it with warm water to begin with. There is also no drain to let the water out on the CPE-3 so you need 2 people to carry somewhere to tip it out. It also says in the instructions (which are an A4 typed word document) that you can’t leave the water in there for longer than 8 hours. The reels are also more challenging to load than Patersons so I have found that cutting the film leaders into a rounded shape keeps the film edges from getting caught in the reels when loading. If there was something else to choose from out there I would get it in a heartbeat, but there’s not much else out there unfortunately. I must admit it does beat standing there doing inversions with a Patterson tank as you have a bit more freedom to walk around. However, if I’m only doing a couple of rolls, it’s much quicker with a small tub, sous vide and Patterson tank.
@@garethVanDagger My Jobo is hard plumbed in my dark room in the basement and has lift option, so it's pretty much always faster to use it, especially these days since I favor 1-shot black white and green developer that has longer development times. The only time I don't use it is when I want to do stand development with DDX 1 + 9. I got lucky on the Jobo a few years back from an estate sale situation so I hardly paid for it. Right out of the gate I didn't trust the temperature, so I just checked it on my test runs and opted to add the sous vide I already owned as a "fix". For what it is, I think the Jobo brand new price-wise is crazy and I can't believe there isn't a Chinese company making knock-offs yet.
I’m going off of Cinestill’s chart. Mixing 1000ml, and adding the used 300ml back to that after development. I believe it’s 2 or 4 seconds extra per roll.
Hi Kyle. If I remember right, the speed motor in dial 2 is the fastest one. If you did not modify the speed of the motor at the end of the video in post-production that engine is going way too slow. I do own a CPE2 but now it is in my back not working. I developed many rolls of color film and the engine gradually became worse. Mine was going slow, the same as yours and then started to give me erratic speeds. I could not find a motor to replace it here in Europe. I hope yours is going well and healthy. Some advice I was given, work always the big Multitank if possible.
I believe that shot you are referring to at the end was shot in slow motion. 2 seems to be working well. The first roll I ever developed with the machine I did at setting 1, and it came out very bad.
@@KyleMcDougall Yes, I was talking about that time in the video. Happy that you have a good one running. I also heard that the multitank it fits too tight for the cpe2. If you have any clue where to find a spare motor I would be more than happy to hear about that.
Thanks for this awesome video Kyle! You mentioned something about the cinestill kit in the video that I was wondering if you could elaborate more on. What was your experience with that and what would you prefer to upgrade to? Also, I would love a more in depth step by step course on this, perhaps as a skill share course or something, as a beginner I would totally pay for that :)
The Cinestill kit, being a two bath kit (developer and then a bleach/fix combo) is really simple and straightforward to use. And it gives pretty good results. That being said, I’d like to go to a 3 bath (dev, bleach, fix) to see if I can get better colour and shadow/highlight retention. But a 2 bath is great if you’re new to developing. Really easy to use b
Not sure what happened to my comment but will try again, can hugely recommend the Bellini C41 kit from NT Photoworks, a bit more labour intensive but seriously good. As regards developing tips, the Ilford Washing Method is a very economical way of washing your film at the end, saves on a lot of water, and with the Jobo it should use even less. I’d also use a setting agent like Kodak Photo Flo after the final wash too. This video has inspired me to get out and fix the CPE-2 I got really cheap a few years ago, it has a crack in the main tank. In fact if anyone here has any tips on how to fix that I’d be hugely grateful too! I’d use something like Kodak Photo Flo at the end
I tried rotary development (but manually on a roller stand) for my 4x5 negative, using the 2520 tank - and always get some sorts of streaks and uneven development. I have used these additional flaps that are highly recommended by Jobo to get even development - well, does not work well at all. How do you develop your 4x5 negatives in the 2520 tank? Do you use the additional parts?
Interesting to hear that. I’ve had no issues at all. Very even development. I’m using the supplied ‘flaps’ and always add a little extra volume. Around 300ml.
@@KyleMcDougall I'll give it a try with extra volume. One difference I've seen is speed of rotation - I was much more "gentle" (slower rotation), and this might be part of the problem. On the other hand I also have streaks when using the SP 8x10 tray for development, even when using the "panning for gold" movement (but I think I get closer to finding out what to do to avoid them). Very annoying.
@@KyleMcDougall the lift saves a lot of hassle for multi step processing like the full 6 bath E6 process or C41 with separate bleach and fix. I would keep an eye out for a broken one with a lift goings cheap.
Hit or miss. What I've found helps is once I put in the blix, and then give it my three manual inversions before putting it on the Jobo, I open the lid to release some pressure.
@@KyleMcDougallthanks, but I ment that the chem in the bottle during development is less than a Patterson tank. When I develop, say a 120 roll I'm using almost 1000ml, where I get the "full force" of that amount of chemicals. Does the lesser amount during development, exhaust faster? I know it gets replenished when you mix it back in to the unused rest of your 1000ml... Sorry I hope that makes sense.
Get the arm for it if you can. It makes dev even easier as pouring chemicals in and out is a total breeze. No moment of stress when changing chemicals and keeping the times 100% correct is a breeze.
Jobo gang! The lift makes a huge difference in general ease of use too. In fairness, I can't talk as I only drag mine out for 4x5 and even then I'm not happy about it. If I had somewhere to have it set up permanently I probably would be happier about it. Quick question, how far does the C41 kit go for you and how long do you/can you store it without issues? Its the only thing that's been putting me off doing color at one. I've got a local mate who owns a lab that's happy to decant chems from his big 5L batches but I don't want to be a hassle if I can't at least store it a little while.
Still getting used to this kit, so I can't comment on how many rolls you get. I will say though, I dropped a leader I snipped off in month old developer and it did nothing (whereas it should have apparently turned black). So I personally wouldn't let the developer go for more than a couple of weeks.
Sorry for the newbie question… Are these film nowadays still put into the spools and tanks under _red_ light? Or would I use a changing bag, better tent, for that? Thanks ;-)
At the current price, it would take 333 rolls to pay for itself. I am not sure it is worth the price. On the other hand, so easy to develop color film now.. The last time I developed color film was when I was a kid and it seemed like it was a 10 chemical nightmare. So easy now.
I strongly suggest using professional grade chemistry in your Jobo instead of home kits with blix. In my opinion, it is a waste of money to invest in good gear, such as Jobo, and use inferior chemistry in it.
@@AndreyPermitin Fuji products are the best option widely available in the Europeqn market. Nothing against Kodak, but they are not available in Europe at the moment. Tetenal has gone bankrupt, and CineSrill makes only small kits with blix, no products aimed for photofinishers. My point is that I assume people investing in a Jobo develop quite a lot of film, and the cost per roll is much cheaper with minilab chemistry than one liter kits. Also, the quality of negatives is better. Fuji makes also a 5 liter press kit called Film X-Press. if the smallest quantities of Environeg oe similar products is too much.
This is definitely more than a couple hundred bucks! I hate when these influencers say misleading info like this or that they got it for free when it’s a super expensive item. Dumb 🙄
I was fortunate to be given a CPA2 Lift a couple years ago and can vouch for it's efficiency and any Jobo model, really. Once it's setup, it's ready, and I even have it connected to my floor drain! Developing film is so convenient it's trivial!
Jesus that’s an insanely good gift, that lift is not cheap!
I have considered a jobo but I don't have the space or develop enough rolls to economically justify it.
I use a Sous vide cooker when I develop c41 and e6, Paterson tanks and a analogue timer, it works great!
Paterson reels can take two rolls of 120 as well if you tape them together! Both were designed to do 120 or 220.
I use a sous vide in a large plastic tub when developing color. This works well for me. It takes about 15-20 minutes for the chems to come up to temp. I use that time to load reels.
I learned how to use the Jobo about 10-12 years ago, got to borrow one during grad school, and was fortunate enough to get one of my own about 3 years ago from a mentor. True game changers. I clip my Cinestill TCS-1000 on the side and it speeds up the process even more. Just wish I had a water cooler for my darkroom ...
I bought a Jobo CPP 2 back in the mid-90's and it remains a true workhorse to this day. I use the Expert Drums for 4x5 and 8x10 film and the 25xx tanks for roll film. Before getting the Jobo, I processed all my LF film in trays and after testing the Jobo/Expert Drums for consistency and evenness of development I couldn't believe how much better my negatives came out!
The Expert drums are by far the best way to develop 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 sheets... Absolutely no doubt about that.
I had a CPP2 for 20 years as well and developed lots of sheets of film in them.
Great video... There is a caution about the solution amount for people that are not familiar with these Jobo tanks (which I think are the best out there for developing, whether by hand or rotary). You have to be careful that you maintain the minimum amount of stock developer in the solution! This is different from the minimum amount of total solution in the tank (as you mention is mostly shown on the Jobo tanks).
This means that people will need to look at the dilution charts for the developer you are using and figure out what the minimum amount of developer is (based on the dilution options for many of the developers) and then determine if you will have enough developer stock solution in the tank when using the minimum required for the Jobo tanks. If it doesn't meet the minimum stock amount, you either need to change the developer solution or increase the amount of working developer in the tank.
Very interesting. I had no idea. Thanks for the heads up!
Great to see you wearing Marigold gloves as I do! :) I've used Jobos for about 10 years after being given a CPE2. I now have two Jobo CPA2s (long story) and use them for everything from 35mm to 10x8. Love the 2509n for 5x4 and the Jobo Expert 3005 for 10x8. I never got the hang of putting two films on 2500 reels, though, even with the little red clips. Films would often overlap no matter how carefully I loaded them on the reel.
The 2509 has been so nice for 4x5! I’ve yet to try two rolls of 120, but would love to be able to pull it off. Would be so convenient.
this is exactly what ive been looking for :) been using a storage box with a sous vide for the last 3 years. Just popped on eBay and grabbed a full set with every tank for £250 :))
Nice! Enjoy!
This is a really neat developer kit! Thanks so much for sharing it.
I'm currently using the filmomat light with for 120, 4x5 and 8x10 so far so good. It accepts Patterson and Jobo tanks
They're also great for doing colour prints. I use mine for both E-6/C-41 developing and RA-4 with up to 16x12 inch paper which is a nice addition. As you mentioned it makes DD-X economically viable (and you can also use it more than once, they don't recommend it and yet give compensation % for multiple uses...) and also gives a nice repeatability.
I found a cheap kitchen timer with some velcro sits perfectly in the space where a 4th knob would be next to the on/off one and makes things a lot easier than a phone with wet hands or gloves. I have to say though the temperature on mine is more of a vague idea than accurate, that thermometer is really necessary if you want one yourself. The lift is handy if you can find one but not by any means vital.
Would say that it's probably the best film developing addition I've bought in a long time.
You gotta get the lift. It’s what really pushes the Jobo over all the other rotary options and allows you to be very consistent with times.
To me the lift is a pain as it’s one more thing to wash out before putting on another batch, and I forgot one time and some blix got into my pre-wash. The only thing it saves is my walking to the sink to tip out the pre-wash.
@@garethVanDagger I’ve never washed my lift once and have never had issues. I just do a few water rinses at the end that are part of my normal process and that water is enough to keep the lift clean.
I’m probably my 300+ rolls deep on this thing and run control strips every few batches and have never seen carryover from the lift mess up the next batch.
@@seanc5718 oh I see, so you do your rinses whilst still on the machine? I’ve been taking my drum off and taking it to the sink for the rinse which leaves blobs of blix in the pouring spout part. Your method will mitigate the contamination issues. How do you monitor the temperature? What thermometer do you use? I had a faulty jobo one and ruined a bunch of film so I’m scared now in relation to what thermometer is best
@@garethVanDagger yeah I do a few water rinses on the jobo and then remove the tank and do the rest of the rinsing off the machine. Temperature I'm monitoring the bath with a relatively cheap thermometer, but measuring the developer with a good thermocouple thermometer from thermoworks. I've dialed in my processing with control strips and a densitometer though, it's really the only 100% foolproof way to do it.
@@seanc5718 thanks Sean, what control strips and densitometer are you using? I’m interested in fool proofing things as much as possible
Great run down of the CPE2. I love my CPE-2 and CPE-3. I have gotten great results for B&W as well as Kodak Flexicolor C-41. One thing I do is use my TCS1000 to bring my water to a degree or two below your developing temperature. Then use that water to fill the Jobo. The CPE's have a 300 watt heater which is good for holding the temperature or eating the water a few degrees, but they struggle with heating up the water 10 to 15 degrees F. I also level the Jobo before filling completely.
Ah, so bring the water almost up to temp in a different container and then transfer to the Jobo?
Thanks. I'll probably invest in a sous vide at some point for that. I did hook up a small fish tank pump to help with circulation, which has been nice.
Yes @@tompoynton
Wait till you get a Jobo Lift... Game changer ;) I would not be without one now! Keep up the amazing work, love your stuff!
So tempted! Not sure if you can use it with the CPE2 though. Think you may need a plus.
@@KyleMcDougall Ideally you need the plus, its far more cost effective to just replace the whole thing with one ready to go. They come up cheap, i got a complete CPE2+ with lift pretty much mint for £350 recently so keep an eye as they are out there. Enjoy your journey with it, honestly even for b&w 510 pyro dev its made such a difference to the consistency of my negs and takes away a lot of the risk when doing C41 :)
This is a great tool for C41 developing, but for black and white I like the flexibility of hand processing. Standing the tank gives better control of acutance, and tonality. Not an issue with colour film.
Not entirely true. Stand development aside, continuous agitation is no-less flexible, more convenient (especially if using the lift), and temperature control (for all types of film) is a breeze.
@@russellsprout2223 Being able to change the frequency of agitation is why hand processing is more flexible. It gives more control to film processing.
@@tedcrosby9361 Not strictly true. The effects of constant agitation is compensated for by choice and dilution of developer. Experimentation is key.
@@russellsprout2223 I understand the convenience of processing b/w film by the Jobo rotary processors, and great if the results you are getting work for you. However my comments were intended to be helpful as clearly rotary processors have there limitations. I have been processing film for over 40 years, and recently invested in the Film Developing Cookbook which is known as the bible for b/w film developing. Some interesting points “ Rotary processors are designed for colour developers, which are specifically designed to work when film is exposed to air during processing. The only black and white developers we can recommend for rotary processors are undiluted high-sulfite types like D76, Microphen and Xtol. It is a cornerstone of black and white developing technique that we avoid exposing film to air.” Regarding my point about acutance, quote “ Unfortunately continuous agitation interferes with the formation of sharpness-enhancing edge effects.” In other words films developed in the conventional way with controlled one minute agitation are going to produce sharper negatives. This may not be an issue if you only shoot large format. One final quote” Rotary processing is sub-optimal for all development processes where highly dilute or fragile developers are being used, and that applies to all tanning developers “
I hope this explains why I made my original comments and good luck with your processing.
I'm still using a Paterson tank with a big plastic tub of water and a sous vide... but as far as chemistry goes, I'm pretty pleased with the results I'm getting from the Bellini C41 kit (best price here in the UK seems to be from Nik and Trick photography down in Folkestone)
Ha, just recommended it myself! It’s so good isn’t it
Given up on C41 since i don't do enough, but this kit is class
I've heard great things. Probably the way I'll go!
I *love* my Jobo! The Jobo, Kinetronics Staticvac, and more recently the Easy35 are my three favorite products.
I’ve got one of these at work with a broken motor gear. I must get it fixed!
I've extensively used a CPA2 with lift for both B&W and E6 sheet films (5x7, 8x10). This is the best way to keep products in temperature and reproduce consistent results. Highly recommended !
I use a Jobo tank for my 35mm and 120 film. I don't own the CPE2 and like others use the sous vide approach but if I can find a free or cheap one I'll be all over it.
Thanks for the insight Kyle.
This makes me want to start developing at home again. Awesome video!
Nice timing Kyle, I only picked up a pair of these from the Evil Bay myself a fortnight ago - one working, one not. The broken one had a broken lift and a broken motor. After lots of frustration, I've managed to get the lift working after a strip down, so have fitted it to the good one - no gloves needed now. Sadly, I don't think I'll be able to fix the motor, but I shall strip it down and try anyway . . .
Great review. I will say I reuse my dd-x 3 times in my 1000ml tank with good results. I add 10% developing time with each use.
Interesting to hear that. I’ll have to try it. I love DDX but it’s expensive as a one shot.
I got a CPA2 (and an additional, nasty one as a donor for the lift kit) a few years ago after processing with a Patterson tank upgraded with a home-made rotation system (a cheap, slow electric motor, a CD, some screws, and some glue). The change in consistency between development methods, for me, was significant. But let me tell you: The CPE/CPA system is just a gateway drug to the ATL1000, which makes the process even nicer. If you get an ATL1000/1500, don't get rid of your CPE/CPA: They are still very useful when developing photographic paper.
Why did you have to tell me about the ATL 😅. Tempting!
This could be a game changer. I dont have a lab close that can develope E-6 so might need to get one of these just for that
Recently bought a filmomat light. Similar workflow but you heat it with a cheap sous vide stick which means perfect temperature consistency and it also takes every kind of drum. It's a bit more expensive than a used CPE2, but imho worth every penny. I love developing RA-4 Prints in old Jobo drums, so much fun and consistent results.
The Filmomat does look like a cool bit of kit!
I would give the unicolor C-41 kit a try. I’ve been using it for about a year now after using Cinestill for years and the results are much nicer.
I’ve heard that the Cinestill kit isn’t supposed to be that good in terms of archival purposes
Alternatively if you want something brand new and essentially the same as the CPE2 without the lift head - there’s the Filmomat Light. All you need is a Sousvide for temp control. it’s about $500 and programmable for any sized tank system.
Yes, that looks like a very intriguing option.
Hi Kyle. The main difference between the CPE and CPP models is that you can purchase a lift that allows you to pour and empty chemistry out of the tanks without having to pull the tank off of the Jobo; and removing and replacing the lid. It basically increases time efficiency. Another difference is that the tanks can hold a larger quantity of film. Cheers!
Gotcha! I thought you could use the lift with the CPE as well.
There is lift for CPE too.
Just a little correction in regards to development time. With black and white you can as a rule of thumb reduce the developer time by about 15 percent compared to inversion development
Jobo recommends a five minute prewash which negates the need to reduce development times of b&w film. Experimentation is key.
Yes, should have mentioned that. With DDX I'm reducing by 15% and it's worked great. No prewash.
Great video Kyle! You make it all look so simple and not nearly as scary as I had thought. Stupid question: did you load the film in the dark? And if so how tricky is this part?
I’d also like to know this 🙏
Yep, just in a dark bag/tent. It's not hard at all. Takes a couple rolls of practice, but definitely not something to worry about.
Great to see this video. I have recently gotten the CPE-2 but yet to use it. 2 Questions: 1. Can you reuse the cinestill chemicals again and again since you put them back into the original containers? 2. Would you use the jobo to develop prints?
It's recommended to use C41 developer one shot when doing rotary development. The aggressive agitation heavily oxidizes the developer and reusing it can cause sub par results. People definitely use it that way though so if you're happy with your results when reusing developer that's all that really matters.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard that. I’ve been reusing the Cinestill and adjusting the develop time as per the instructions and have had pretty good results.
@@KyleMcDougall highly recommend reading through Kodaks z131 document w even if you don’t plan on using their chemicals. It’s extremely detailed. The section on rotary development is great to reference.
For C-41 I think an all in one temperature controlled system makes a ton of sense. For those of you that shoot primarily black and white (like me) and temperature is much less of a concern, a simple automated agitator is probably all you need.
Hi Kyle, new subscriber here, I've just been browsing your videos, particularly your Pentax 645 and 67 videos as I too shoot both of those. I also have the Jobo CPE2 which is a great piece of kit, this is a great video with sound advice to those shopping for their first processor. Greetings from Ireland.
Cheers, Jim!
By the way - I have found using a supplemental sous vide on the Jobo water basin to be very helpful at getting up to temperature and maintaining temperature. On my older unit it takes quite a while on its own, and the water temp is a bit off.
This is very good to know cheers. Wonder if it contributed to some of the colour issues (for want of a better word) that Kyle had with his negatives
When I got my cpe-3, the jobo thermometer that came with it was faulty and so the water bath and chemicals were 5-7 degrees Celsius too high and left blotchy marks all over my negatives. With film developing it’s frustrating as it can be a long process of elimination. After ruining 5 rolls of film, it turned out it was the thermometer so I purchased a $2 coffee/milk thermometer which works fine. The version 2 looks much better quality than my CPE-3. The CPE-3 has stickers on the dials, not markings. My sticker wasn’t out on straight so it’s hard to tell where 38 degrees actually is. There’s a place for the thermometer to clip into at the opposite end of the bath which then doesn’t give an accurate reading for where your chemicals are at the other end. For $3,000 AUD I was very disappointed. Surely you should be able to set the temperature accurately and it maintains it reliably like a sous vide. It also takes a long time to heat up unless you fill it with warm water to begin with. There is also no drain to let the water out on the CPE-3 so you need 2 people to carry somewhere to tip it out. It also says in the instructions (which are an A4 typed word document) that you can’t leave the water in there for longer than 8 hours. The reels are also more challenging to load than Patersons so I have found that cutting the film leaders into a rounded shape keeps the film edges from getting caught in the reels when loading. If there was something else to choose from out there I would get it in a heartbeat, but there’s not much else out there unfortunately. I must admit it does beat standing there doing inversions with a Patterson tank as you have a bit more freedom to walk around. However, if I’m only doing a couple of rolls, it’s much quicker with a small tub, sous vide and Patterson tank.
@@garethVanDagger My Jobo is hard plumbed in my dark room in the basement and has lift option, so it's pretty much always faster to use it, especially these days since I favor 1-shot black white and green developer that has longer development times. The only time I don't use it is when I want to do stand development with DDX 1 + 9. I got lucky on the Jobo a few years back from an estate sale situation so I hardly paid for it. Right out of the gate I didn't trust the temperature, so I just checked it on my test runs and opted to add the sous vide I already owned as a "fix". For what it is, I think the Jobo brand new price-wise is crazy and I can't believe there isn't a Chinese company making knock-offs yet.
Ready to order some c41 but quick question. If you mix 300ml, how many times are you using that?
I’m going off of Cinestill’s chart. Mixing 1000ml, and adding the used 300ml back to that after development. I believe it’s 2 or 4 seconds extra per roll.
Hi Kyle. If I remember right, the speed motor in dial 2 is the fastest one. If you did not modify the speed of the motor at the end of the video in post-production that engine is going way too slow. I do own a CPE2 but now it is in my back not working. I developed many rolls of color film and the engine gradually became worse. Mine was going slow, the same as yours and then started to give me erratic speeds. I could not find a motor to replace it here in Europe. I hope yours is going well and healthy. Some advice I was given, work always the big Multitank if possible.
I believe that shot you are referring to at the end was shot in slow motion. 2 seems to be working well. The first roll I ever developed with the machine I did at setting 1, and it came out very bad.
@@KyleMcDougall Yes, I was talking about that time in the video. Happy that you have a good one running. I also heard that the multitank it fits too tight for the cpe2.
If you have any clue where to find a spare motor I would be more than happy to hear about that.
Does the water tub have a drain plug? Seems like lifting and dumping would be difficult.
It doesn’t.
I wanted one pretty bad back in 2015-16 when I shot more film. But its still one of those "if I happen into it" pieces
Awesome! Ive always been intrigued by that gizmo. I'm surprised you don't rinse between dev and Blix though?
Haven't ever done that, although I know that some people do recommend it.
Thanks for this awesome video Kyle! You mentioned something about the cinestill kit in the video that I was wondering if you could elaborate more on. What was your experience with that and what would you prefer to upgrade to?
Also, I would love a more in depth step by step course on this, perhaps as a skill share course or something, as a beginner I would totally pay for that :)
The Cinestill kit, being a two bath kit (developer and then a bleach/fix combo) is really simple and straightforward to use. And it gives pretty good results. That being said, I’d like to go to a 3 bath (dev, bleach, fix) to see if I can get better colour and shadow/highlight retention. But a 2 bath is great if you’re new to developing. Really easy to use b
@@KyleMcDougall thanks Kyle appreciate the clarification 🙏
Not sure what happened to my comment but will try again, can hugely recommend the Bellini C41 kit from NT Photoworks, a bit more labour intensive but seriously good. As regards developing tips, the Ilford Washing Method is a very economical way of washing your film at the end, saves on a lot of water, and with the Jobo it should use even less. I’d also use a setting agent like Kodak Photo Flo after the final wash too.
This video has inspired me to get out and fix the CPE-2 I got really cheap a few years ago, it has a crack in the main tank. In fact if anyone here has any tips on how to fix that I’d be hugely grateful too!
I’d use something like Kodak Photo Flo at the end
The Bellini is the one I was looking at. I’ve heard great things!
wish it would work with my JOBO Expert 3010 and 3005. i use a rotary motor to spine but cant submerse for color temperature control
I'm curious if the continuous agitation makes for more contrasty negatives?
I tried rotary development (but manually on a roller stand) for my 4x5 negative, using the 2520 tank - and always get some sorts of streaks and uneven development. I have used these additional flaps that are highly recommended by Jobo to get even development - well, does not work well at all. How do you develop your 4x5 negatives in the 2520 tank? Do you use the additional parts?
Interesting to hear that. I’ve had no issues at all. Very even development. I’m using the supplied ‘flaps’ and always add a little extra volume. Around 300ml.
@@KyleMcDougall I'll give it a try with extra volume. One difference I've seen is speed of rotation - I was much more "gentle" (slower rotation), and this might be part of the problem. On the other hand I also have streaks when using the SP 8x10 tray for development, even when using the "panning for gold" movement (but I think I get closer to finding out what to do to avoid them). Very annoying.
A prewash should be done twice to bring the temperature up to the correct reading.
I have the CPE2 with the lift. It has paid for itself multiple times over.
The lift is tempting!
@@KyleMcDougall the lift saves a lot of hassle for multi step processing like the full 6 bath E6 process or C41 with separate bleach and fix.
I would keep an eye out for a broken one with a lift goings cheap.
your photographs are awesome
Thank you.
How have you kept the Blix from building up pressure and exploding out of the Jobo developer???
Hit or miss. What I've found helps is once I put in the blix, and then give it my three manual inversions before putting it on the Jobo, I open the lid to release some pressure.
for color film especially, don't you get faster chem exhaustion with smaller quantity of chem?
The chems are being put back in with the rest of the 1 litre mix.
@@KyleMcDougallthanks, but I ment that the chem in the bottle during development is less than a Patterson tank. When I develop, say a 120 roll I'm using almost 1000ml, where I get the "full force" of that amount of chemicals. Does the lesser amount during development, exhaust faster? I know it gets replenished when you mix it back in to the unused rest of your 1000ml... Sorry I hope that makes sense.
Get the arm for it if you can. It makes dev even easier as pouring chemicals in and out is a total breeze. No moment of stress when changing chemicals and keeping the times 100% correct is a breeze.
how do you know how many dev cycles you can get from reusing the chemicals with the more effective use of chemicals?
Cinestills instructions suggest adding I believe 2% (I’d have to double check) longer per roll of 35.
Stearman Press 445,all the way.
Jobo gang! The lift makes a huge difference in general ease of use too. In fairness, I can't talk as I only drag mine out for 4x5 and even then I'm not happy about it.
If I had somewhere to have it set up permanently I probably would be happier about it.
Quick question, how far does the C41 kit go for you and how long do you/can you store it without issues? Its the only thing that's been putting me off doing color at one. I've got a local mate who owns a lab that's happy to decant chems from his big 5L batches but I don't want to be a hassle if I can't at least store it a little while.
Depends on the kit. The one I use I add on about 15s for each 4 rolls
developed, just got to keep note!
Still getting used to this kit, so I can't comment on how many rolls you get. I will say though, I dropped a leader I snipped off in month old developer and it did nothing (whereas it should have apparently turned black). So I personally wouldn't let the developer go for more than a couple of weeks.
Does the constant rotation impact the amount of agitation you do for each development? Especially for BW processing?
The rotation is all the agitation required. Typically times are 10-15% reduced I think (ilford data sheets will confirm that).
Hey John, for colour dev times remain the same, and as mentioned, the rotation is the agitation. For B&W I reduce developing time by 15%.
I would love to have a CPE in my development system, but space is an issue for me! I use a B's Processor, small compact and does the job for me!
The B's looks like a great little tool.
I would totally get a CPE if it wasnt for my Unicolor roller
Sorry for the newbie question… Are these film nowadays still put into the spools and tanks under _red_ light? Or would I use a changing bag, better tent, for that? Thanks ;-)
Is the pre-rinse (before developer) just regular water?
Is there any negatives to having a constant agitation?
I got so excited when you said a couple hundred bucks. Then I searched and they are definitely closer to 1k complete. :(
You can find them cheaper, just wait for a deal. If you look for the older models. They pop up on ebay every now and then.
@@KyleMcDougall I setup some alerts! :)
Did you find you had to change your exposure for rotary development?
Yes. Dropped down by 15% for B&W
Is that pre-rinse just heated distilled water?
Yes.
With what chemistry you are working?
And how many 120 film you get from 500ml?
🖤🖤🖤
Thanks!
No stabilizer?
Negative. Optional with this kit, and something haven't done yet.
How much do you spend a month keeping all your chemicals stocked using this? With it being more efficient
you and mike look like you can be brothers sometimes.
Get the lift.
Hame changer
This
Yes! Keeps your hands dry throughout the process
No small investment though that
Very, very tempting!
At the current price, it would take 333 rolls to pay for itself. I am not sure it is worth the price. On the other hand, so easy to develop color film now.. The last time I developed color film was when I was a kid and it seemed like it was a 10 chemical nightmare. So easy now.
I don't recommend a pre-wet for color film. Only a few B&W films require it.
I strongly suggest using professional grade chemistry in your Jobo instead of home kits with blix. In my opinion, it is a waste of money to invest in good gear, such as Jobo, and use inferior chemistry in it.
Can you please name some professional chemistry for c41 please? I know only cinestill and tetenal kits.
@@AndreyPermitin Fuji products are the best option widely available in the Europeqn market. Nothing against Kodak, but they are not available in Europe at the moment. Tetenal has gone bankrupt, and CineSrill makes only small kits with blix, no products aimed for photofinishers.
My point is that I assume people investing in a Jobo develop quite a lot of film, and the cost per roll is much cheaper with minilab chemistry than one liter kits. Also, the quality of negatives is better. Fuji makes also a 5 liter press kit called Film X-Press. if the smallest quantities of Environeg oe similar products is too much.
16 grand for that peugoet?!
Guess I must be getting old, thought this was common knowledge 🤣
This is definitely more than a couple hundred bucks! I hate when these influencers say misleading info like this or that they got it for free when it’s a super expensive item. Dumb 🙄
There are some in my area on FB marketplace quite often for around the $200 mark. And I did get this one for free.
Why are You wearing gloves?😅 A little overkill don't you think?