This Is Why You Need to Bounce Plugins to Audio
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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Lol I swear Multiplier is high 24/7
1:30 of useful info, 6:30 of crazed stoner antics - hahahaha :)
he puts a delay on an audio track .....LMHO what do you think is going to happen!????
Even with he delay wet knob on dry its still going to delay it!!
I think he was just bored that day and just wanted to make a video and show off his fingers!
i noticed this JUST the other day.after years of producing. so now i bounce everything to audio. no wonder sometimes i like starting again mid way through! lol
save a copy b4 you flatten anything!
I love the way you say milliseconds.
It's a plugins's issue, not Live's. It happens when a plugin doesn't report its latency to a host. Plugin's latency is induced every time the plugin is on a track. Trying to bypass latency inducing plugin by its internal Dry/Wet switcher is useless, because a host still sees this plugin as an active one. To avoid situations like the one in this video you need to use DAW's own 'Bypass' (or 'Deactivate') button. Once the plugin is bypassed by the DAW, audio signal is no more passing THROUGH the plugin, and its latency is not induced to the signal.
But this workaround doesn't solve this issue when a plugin (Sigmund, for example) is needed to be active, because it doesn't report its latency correctly. So it's impossible for a host/DAW to compensate that latency without knowing its exact amount.
P.S. This happens in Studio One as well, so report this bug to D16 Group, not Ableton)))
He is literally saying it's the plugins fault. "Some plugins have this latency some don't." And he is only switching to Dry, because that shows the plugin latency and not the effect of the echo which would confuse the person watching the video. "It's still doing the plugin stufferoonies, but it is just the Dry signal." He is not trying to bypass latency with the Dry/Wet.
when you deactivate a plug-in in Ableton you still suffer the latency. Think about it - what if it's introducing 150 ms latency like a linear phase EQ ? you can automate it on and off and it still pops right in on time. Ableton holds that latency there. You can test it out yourself with any high latency plug-in and you'll see that you still have the latency. You have to else Ableton would have to read into the future to keep everything in time if you were turning the plug on and off
this is the reason there are two seperate types of bouncing methods in STUDIO ONE 3.34 one is "Preserve Realtime" which doesnt compensate vst latency, the other one is "Rendered Audio" which doesnt have any of the issues you mentioned in this video.
S1 has the best freezing function of any DAW hands down. There's like 4-6 different ways to freeze and unfreeze and they each have their own usefulness.
I use FL. If I get any delay, all I have to do is turn the Trim knob up on the sample and any milliseconds of silence are trimmed off. It's no big deal, man. Just look at your audio clips and make sure they line up with the grid. Pay attention to detail
Keep on rockin', dude. Love your stuff.
I think it’s wonderful that even the less fortunate offer very valuable music production advice, thank you so much for this and god bless your parents.
Doesn't this video kinda prove the opposite? I believe the DAW will compensate the timing for you on export. So really you only have that delay because you bounced down. The timing will obviously be perfect in the synth before bounced down because you were using your ears to set the timing. Even so, I definitely prefer to bounce to save cpu. However, this looks like an ableton issue. Never noticed this in any other DAW. Anyone prove otherwise?
Good point
Most DAWs will, like you said, compensate the latency offset by buffering a short time before they start the playback so that plugins which need some time to process will still be able to play at the right time. In this case, the DAW will wait 3ms before it starts the playback. As soon as you bounce to audio, the DAW can't recognize the offset anymore, because it's printed into the audio and the offset will become audible.
yep
I just checked out that link with the video on automation delay in ableton as well. Damn, Ableton has some serious problems! I think this is more proof that each DAW should be used what it was meant for rather than an all in one solution. Ableton is king for DJing and live performance, FL is king of midi production, Studio One is slowly taking over as king of audio production over Pro Tools. It's been like this for years. I remember making beats in Fruity Loops 4 and exporting the audio into Cakewalk Sonar 4 to record vocals, mix and master. Seems things haven't changed. I never ran into this issue with Ableton because I don't make beats in there. Everything is audio in the first place from my FL sessions when I start an Ableton session.
The thing about plugin delay compensation is that it sucks. I can speak for Fl studio but I've heard the same about Ableton. Easiest way to prove this is to chuck two instances of the same audio in two separate mixer tracks like multiplier has done here where the first instance has no plugins where the second has a bypassed eq or something. If you playback both instances while both tracks are lined up perfectly you get some hard AF phasing issues, purely due to plugin induced latency which should have been adjusted for by the DAW.
Note: This is why I really hated parallel processing involving multiple dry signals. However the solution IMO is to either always have the same plugins on both channels so that the latency is the same across all tracks or just bounce to audio then line them up.
I love ur video not because what u teach
But the way u teach
SO if in ableton everything is delayed by about 3ms when bouncing, then in the end everything will be aligned with each other just the whole track starts 3ms later?
nope!, this plugin gave 3ms delay, other plugins would have different times, some with no delay at all.
This video just proves you should apply delay compensation when using plugins that introduce latency... engage the delay compensation in the arrangement view ("D" in the lower right hand corner to the right of the Master).
can you please upload videos on mixing and creating space....i am able to create songs but i just cant mix them properly
digvijay singh different stereo placement, different levels, different compression, and different reverb are keys to giving different sounds their own space.
what about send channels??
digvijay singh a send channel is only for like if you have a bunch of drums right.. if they are each mixed differently, you can send them to a send channel to give them all the same reverb, or maybe use a glue compressor to make them sound more together. but really send channels are not all that important in the beginning. but send channels are best for sending sounds that are similar into them to give them a little extra processing. but you can do all you need to do just in the regular channels really. there's some unique stuff you can do in the send channels that you can't do in the regular channels, but that like I said is really not even worth worrying about if your just beginning. worry about send channels later on down the road.
yes actually.
i was searching you on facebook...then i found a guy named kyle wilson with a big beard and he is a guitarist in a band
The most entertaining audio tutorial guy on UA-cam 😂😂 d for dinosaur wtf use your eyes on analyyse
Sometimes it has to do with your samplerate, and what the plugin developers intended samplerate was.
Never had an issue with this. Print the audio, and then freeze the original
Almost four years of using Ableton and I've *never* noticed that before. Recreated your setup exactly (cloning a loop, putting Sigmund on the second track using that same preset and setting to dry, freeze & flatten) and yep ~3ms offset ! There is the track delay option for each track (by pressing the D button on the far right of the screen) but yeah .... weird !
Definitely thought you were onto something there so reran tests: The same thing seems to happen (certainly with Sigmund anyway) if you have 'Delay Compensation' turned on or off (from the Options menu) before freezing & flattening - You still seem to get this 3ms offset.
With plugins with extreme latency (e.g. Zynaptiq's Adaptiverb) there's a definite improvement with Delay Compensation turned on when you freeze & flatten the track (The offset is a whopping 186ms with it off, 1.5ms with it on) but there's definitely still this shift between a dry track and a track with effects on it fully set to be bypassed.
There must be a setting somewhere where this PDC when freezing doesn't happen !
Good stuff 👌😋 keep it up
you could just send it through a group and route it through another and just record a loop with the effect on that's how i do it in cubase
I noticed that yesterday. I started using some latency compensation instead of bouncing, and then bounced to make sure it was correct
I think the problem is plugins with fixed latency, which report to the DAW and so the delay can be compensated, but as in this example if the delay is dynamic then the DAW can't compensate.
I know this is a stupid question and I really should know the answer to this, butit's 4.30 am and I don't. When I bounce to audio do I process sounds before or after?
We should discuss this! I have all manner of issue with session strings
There is a best and easy way, go to the pref. and shift to 0 the driver error componsation. ;)
Just an idea, please tell if it does work : don't render from Bar 1, move your tracks to Bar 8.
Multiplier that happens to me when I export more than one track simultaneously (in Ableton) from midi (using Serum) to audio, so I have to export one at a time, which takes a long time in some cases. Do you know what I'm talking about? is there a way to fix this? Thank you for sharing your knowledge bruh!
Is this only a problem with ableton though? one of that bad points about ableton is how it handles plugin latency
Nope, all plugins exhibit some amount of latency regardless of the DAW. It's just a matter of routing everything properly so that it's managed. I use FL and there was a thread on this topic which I'm just too lazy to search up at the moment. But essentially you'll have a buss behind the master which all your elements route to. This buss will compensate for the plugin latencies throughout your mix and output audio to the Master in sync. Keep in mind however that the total latency from this compensatory buss is as long as the 'laggiest' plugin in your mix so if you're doing heavy processing, it will get increasingly more difficult to record in real-time. This is fine for me as I'm mainly working with MIDI, but it might be a different story for more organic recordings which rely more on responsiveness. Just my two pesos.
I've never bounced audio in FL with any delay whatsoever. The PDC in FL works perfectly. I too use a Prebus so maybe that's why I never noticed delay in FL after a bounce. This is definitely not an issue in all DAWs. Someone just did a comparison of Bitwig and Ableton (direct competitors) and Bitwig also delivers zero latency after the bounce. For sure this is an Ableton issue my friend.
I done a test, with studio one reaper and ableton, i put fabfilter pro q 2 on high latency mode before LFO tool in the fx chain, and LFO tool goes way out of sync after adding pro q 2 and abletons PDC does not fix it, when doing this in the other 2 daws it still was in sync. Ableton is known to have this problem i hope they fix the pdc in version 10
I understand, latency issues...but should this not happen, because of the auto dcp, should it? It would be interesting to see the delay, after an export, will the delay be the same, or does ableton the dcp. only at freezing wrong?
TheDeathknight79 good questiin, i think it wouldnt happen because i experienced the same thing you mentioned in flstudio
chexk out my new mix on soundcloud if u have some time
Not a big deal, considering, users can add values in the "track delay" feature in Ableton...
Can we please get some clarification on this; does this happen when you export (response to Ian Ross's top comment)? Is it only a problem when you freeze and flatten? Is the delay really there while it's playing b4 freezing?
Does this delay thing happen exactly the same with all DAWS? It seems to be simply a slight change to the start time. What about if there are many tracks? Will there be various differences in the start of each track, making it more and more unaccurate depending on the number of tracks? Is this only occurs with delay plugins then it's fine because you are expecting imperfection like that since delays do just that, make things imperfect. If it happens with an EQ then it's not cool because EQing should not effect things like that. Make sense? Happy multiplying!!
If you turn off the monitoring on the track you're bouncing to this shouldn't happen.
Flipsh0t what do you mean turn off monitoring?
So you route your kick, lets say, to an audio track and set the monitering mode to "IN", and there's no slight delay anymore? is this true?
Here's what I do.
Set 2 tracks, one with all the effects I want to hear (the usual kind of stuff) and one dry. I then route the instrument or whatever I'm recording live through both. I monitor though the effects track (IN/auto/off) to hear it as I want it and record only to the dry with its monitoring turned off ( in/auto/OFF on the recording track, this is important).
After, I drag what was recorded over to the effects track I was using for monitoring. The act of monitoring while recording adds more latency than you think even without effects as ableton seems to prioritize resources for playing the sound through the monitor BEFORE it even attempts to write the data (adding un-needed track delay compared to the others which only gets worse the more tracks you do since you're listening to them as you record the next and compensating for the audible time difference).
Doing this makes any added latency caused by any effects or output to have "almost" zero effect on the actual track data recorded, the only thing you might have issues with is if your interface has really high latency to begin with.
I've done this for a long time as the ableton of old didn't have very good "automatic" latency correction that they've tried to implement in the last 2 or so versions (tbh it's still horrible without far too much fiddling around).
This only really works for "in the box" recording sessions with more basic interfaces (eg. focusrite audio interfaces etc...) larger studio solutions have different monitoring implementations that mostly negate this issue.
Your mileage may vary due to differences in hardware but this has always worked for me.
I feel so stupid right now. I always just moved the midi tracks slightly left to compensate the latency issues
But multiplier, isn't the delay compensation in the settings meant to correct this? Also, what about when using the fx return tracks? Please answer lol
Ridiculous that this is still an issue in 2017. Ableton needs to step their game up. Look at S1...
S1 is what I use to mix and master. I sound design and compose in FL, sometimes as a plugin inside of S1 and I just send all my audio directly into S1. I like keeping my midi separate from my audio. S1 has the best freezing of any DAW, but I still like having the midi right there ready to go with my vsti's disabled to save cpu. It gives me the most flexibility. So yeah, I use 3 different DAWs to do 3 entirely different things. On the pro level these are three entirely different career paths you could take. I just love music enough to do it all myself with whatever tools get it done the best for my purpose.
Ian Ross I am also a power S1 user. I just like to start tracks in ableton. Hopefully ver 10 will be a full rewrite and fix these basic issues. Also add mp3 export. Ableton is amazing but the small issues with the software just make it so tedious sometimes.
Yes like ian ross says the only reason you have this delay with instrument tracks or signals going through fx plugs is because you have bounced the audio... Freezing option is used for latency issues within your daw so you shouldn't have to move any audio or bounce for that matter... When you usually get a delay like shown in the video is if your interface or computer in general is struggling and you record audio into your daw the monitoring can sound real time-zero ms , but when you record you have a recording latency which can be ms amounts of out of time audio . So yea this video is really not very correct and if you are having latency issues with an fx plugin you just freeze the channel but it doesn't have to be bounced or rerendered whether its an audio track or on an audio channel of a vst instrument ! \Well thats how cubase works anyway...
great help and great humor!!! thank you 👍🏻🤓
Good fucking point!!!
it's the lookAhead when plugins needs to lookahead in the signal to prevent something from happening or to do some calculations it will have this latency but your daw compensates it !
Grazba Music i want to know if that's truth
Pro Tools does a great job, Live cant be relied on for this.
At which point should one bounce to audio? After you put some new plugin on the track? I'm always afraid I'm gonna change something so I bounce stuff towards the end of the project and then adjust the timing again but it's a little tricky sometimes when you have 20 tracks or so... (but I am a FL Studio user :D)
Bounce down when your CPU is ruining your workflow. That's the main point of bouncing down to audio, to save CPU. Unless you're a music producer, then you might be manipulating audio in a way you can't with midi. Use patcher to eliminate timing and phase issues caused by FL mixer when using parallel processing.
Thanks man, the Patcher thing is a very useful tip. Never used it before. But sounds awesome if it solves phase issues.
The way studio one handles freezing audio makes it less of a commitment when you bounce to audio. It's so quick and easy, I find myself going back to the sound design stage and mixing the vsti into whatever fx chain I created for it after the bounce. 10 out of 10 times I get a better sound doing this.
I replied to your comment apart from op's question. Wasn't implying they should switch daws. Just thought I'd point out there's something new out there that makes everything about this video and these comments a non-issue. Bouncing certainly isn't a waste of time in S1. That being said, I still do a majority of my midi inside FL. But I don't bounce down inside of the daw. Instead I trackout stems out to S1 and mix from there. Even with my extra step of doing all of my midi in FL, I still prefer mixing in S1 and unbouncing audio FX when I wanna go back and change a synth. It's not for everyone, so it's not a suggestion. Just a testament to how strong S1's freeze functions are and how bad FL is. Otherwise I'd just bounce into FL all the time. It seems edison is the best way to bounce in FL. Trim silence and drag back into FL's playlist and arrange it from there. We all hate using a plugin to create an audio file...especially since it doesn't bounce it in place either.
Totally agree...this is what I told Jeff Kung in the comments below 2 hours ago..."S1 is what I use to mix and master. I sound design and compose in FL, sometimes as a plugin inside of S1 and I just send all my audio directly into S1. I like keeping my midi separate from my audio. S1 has the best freezing of any DAW, but I still like having the midi right there ready to go with my vsti's disabled to save cpu. It gives me the most flexibility. So yeah, I use 3 different DAWs to do 3 entirely different things. On the pro level these are three entirely different career paths you could take. I just love music enough to do it all myself with whatever tools get it done the best for my purpose." So yeah, we are definitely in agreement there.
should bounce in place whenever you're using Ableton or FL #coughcough
So ive been having this problem on ableton where i export my mix and it sounds nothing like how i mixed it .... i use waves plugins on vocals but the export wav version comes out really low in volume and almost sounds like the plugins didnt get processed correctly .... can anyone help?
TheRooksEnt Could you resolve that? 🙆♂️
You weren't really surprised were you?
is the any way of bounding to audio this quickly in fl?
I think the fastest way is to select the part of the song in the playlist, then click on the 'Arm disk recording' button in your mixer track (the white dot at the bottom), then open the mixer options -> Disk recording -> Render to wave file(s)
1. Select the part you want to bounce to audio in the playlist
2. In the mixer, arm mixer tracks playing (in FL12 it's a little knob on each mixer tracks)
3. Press Alt+R
Hope i can help !
thanks to both of you. prompt and clear.
Just slap an edison on the track you wanna record and record it, drag and drop the audio right into the playlist, extremely easy and fast.
All three suggestions work, but in the new version of FL it's going to be more like Ableton's, which is superior. The problem with FL is the number of steps. In 12.5 beta No need to Arm disk, mixer options, etc. For now, I like to highlight and hit cntrl+R. This create's a wav file in whatever folder you want. I just save all of my samples to my project folder and just drag and drop into my playlist from there. But again, the new FL will be quicker. We'll be able to one click and bounce in place without drag n drop or having to arm anything. Just highlight and click and the wav file will appear. The public beta is out now.
we call that the auto-humanize function bro, leave it its great lol
should i always turn midi into audio when im going to master?
Typically you want to convert to one single stereo track for mastering.
At least bounce down to stems and master the stems if you don't want to be stuck with the 2track.
Right! This is what I'm unclear about; is this is an issue only happening when you freeze and flatten, or is the timing still off even when you export the whole lot?
He just said the same thing 37 times. I get it.
i didn't see it
So this what what Mark Heap ended up doing
that's what plugin delay compensation is for
Live hasnt fully compensated for it, pity it's the best DAW ever made.
never have any issue in logic
man i forgot how weird he used to be
If it's possible, Could you please give any tips on making drips hit harder in ANY KIND OF EDM please? Because whenever I.make music, and I'm not Sure if it's just me and my brain or the actual mixdown. but the drop just doesn't sound hard to me. it sounds like an extension of the build up. You dont have to make a vid, and you don't have to reply. but just some quick tips in a reply would be nice.
Sidechain is your best friend in this case, if you already tried it, choose better kick samples, experiment with different compressions, etc..
Hugh Jones On My drop i add 1 db. On the build I reduce the stereo wideness of the track slowly so hat when it hits it feels like you're being hit from all sides. I always sidechain everything. In My build I also slightly highpass the track so that when the bass hits it feels much louder. Maybe I'm going wrong by adding a downlifter? I'm not sure.
Samuel Simionato Thank you for your help. I think it might be that I'm putting downlifters right on my drops. Also maybe the hi-hats (which are playing in the build) are playing on the drop the exact same way. I'm not sure.
Ohno u done fucked this video up.
The dry/wet knob doesn't work as a BYPASS switch. Like when you put the knob on dry it's bypassed and when you put it on wet it's working all the way or whatever. It's obvious the delay plugin delays your shit, that's a plugin u put on a bus. Bad bad Multiplier! And if you use the delay thing on Ableton, it delays EVERYTHING so for keyboard players that's a no no.
wow you must have done something right to gain 87 plus thousand subscribers. I just can't get past the serious irritation which came on after about 60 seconds. How I made it through 6 minutes of the above video is beoynd me. Please learn how to articulate normally and communicate your wisdom more digestably. Geez....might actually sit through your next video!
Ableton? lol
Does ableton not have PDC??? God it's a piece of shit