Don't use ELRS or Crossfire at 1 Watt: RF Interference reduces FPV Video Quality, Range &Penetration
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- In this video we explore the affects of using "High Power" (1 Watt) Control Links have on our FPV Video performance, whether we are using Analog, HDZero, WalkSnail, or DJI.
Nobody wants to have "RX Loss" or "FailSafe" when flying, and so often we buy High Powered transmitters for your ELRS or Crossfire systems and blast 1W of power at our quad!
This certainly does create a very solid control link, but this strong RF signal is being transmitted right below our goggles which are using sensitive RF receivers to capture 5.8ghz signals from our quads.
As the 5.8ghz RF signal get weaker due to range or penetration, this control link interference begins to create performance issues, creating noise, lower bitrate, latency, ect... in our FPV video feeds.
What we demonstrate in this video is that a control link (either 2.4ghs or 900mhz) even at 100mW vastly outperforms our 5.8ghz even when they transmit at 1W.
I'm currently using Gemini which offers incredible performance! But even a basic ELRS or CRSF Tx will outperform our video links.
----- Thanks for Watching -------
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Anyway happy to answer questions cheers! Here’s a video summary for quick reference:
----- Video Summary ---------
0:00 - Video Overview
0:18 - Only 100mW? Why?!
0:30 - 1 Watt Interference
1:05 - Penetration Tests
1:13 - Losing Video! but not control...
1:34 - Long Range Testing
1:49 - Crossfire Interference (2021)
2:25 - So we can't use 1 Watt?
2:45 - Dynamic Power?
3:07 - ELRS TXs & RXs Tested
3:27 - Test yourself & let me know!
3:35 - Getting RX Loss or Failsafe?!
3:53 - Closing Thoughts
--------- VTX / VRX Antennas & Quad Setup --------------------------------------
- Frame: GepRC & Source One 5" Freestyle Quads with
- VTX: Full Size WalkSnail VTX ; HDZero VTX
- VTX Antenna: Twin iFlight Albatross Long Antennas
- VRX: Fatshark WalkSnail VRX on HDZero Goggles
- VRX Antennas: Quad 7-Turn Helical Antennas
- FPV Camera: WalkSnail Micro
- Flight Controller: Mamba F722 MKIII
- ESC: Mamba F50 4-in-1
- Motors: Xing 2306 2450kv motors
- Props: HQ Props 5"
- GPS Module: TBS M8-2
- Control Link RX: ELRS Matek Diversity with RadioMaster T-Style antennas
- Buzzer: ViFly Finder 2
_____ Other Quad Setups _________________________________________
- iFlight Chimera 7", with Emax ECOII 2807 1500kv/1300kv motors, HDZero Freestyle VTX
- iFlight Megabee v1 3" with WalkSnail Avatar 1s VTX
- FlyWoo Firefly Baby Nano with HDZero Whoop Lite 1s VTX
- DemonRC 5" Freestyle Quad with Xing 2306 2450kv motors
- ELRS on all quads now, previously CrossFire
- FRSky Taranis X9D Plus TX with BetaFPV ELRS 500mW TX Module
- RadioMaster Zorro with ELRS
- DIY Helicals, search my channel about how great those are!
- TrueRC X2-Air Antennas, Singularity, TBS Triumph Pro, VAS antenna Tests Soon!
- DIY Li-Ion packs using Molicel Batteries, also amazing, check out my video for reference!
#elrs #newtechnology #Walksnail #HDzero #DJI #fpv #fpvdrone #dronevideo #gopro #dvr #norway #longrange #DIY #Testing #crossfire - Навчання та стиль
Strong out-of-band RF singnals can desensitize any receiver. To date, FPV receivers have had very little in the way of front-end filtering so will be subject to this desensitization. Perhaps it's time for more effective RF shielding and better front-end filtering for our FPV gear now that higher power levels are becoming the norm with RC gear. Either that, or it's time to go back to mounting your FPV receiver on a pole (close to the antennas) and running the video feed to the goggles -- just like we did in the old days, before goggles had built-in receivers. There are many benefits to this strategy -- including better range (for low-level ops) when the antennas/receiver are elevated by even a couple of meters above head-height).
There is he, knowledge himself has arrived. Appreciate you checking out the video and providing realistic insight. It seems like front-end filtering or shielding would be a solid next step. Though the point of my video is modern control links are so good that we don’t need high power.
A fellow down in your part of the world did a 100km range test last year with a 100mW 2.4ghz ELRS setup, incredible! Sadly “your buddies” down at the government office ordered it to be taken down…
For me 7km is plenty and my current systems/setup do that no problem. In 2021 I was troubleshooting this exact issue with 1W CRSF, and I finally decided it was time to make a video.
Keep up the good fight, we all appreciate your efforts, cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy I agree.. power isn't all it's cracked up to be -- so long as you have line of sight. When you're flying proximity however, having extra power on-hand to either punch through or reflect sufficiently to give a useful signal at the receiver antenna can help. Those amazing range figures for ELRS are inevitably direct-line transmissions which means you won't be able to "ground hug" for more than a Km or two before you run out of RSSI. All those very long distance flights require altitude (to keep the curve of the earth out of the equation) so they're not that useful to us if we want to stay out of manned aviation airspace (ie: < 400ft AGL).
I'm a great believe that more than "enough" is too much, when it comes to RF. I'd much rather use a better antenna than just push more energy up the spout. Another alternative is lower frequencies for the RC link. Perhaps it's time to revisit 72MHz, which has far better penetration and propagation when ground clutter or other obstructions are involved. I wonder who will be first to apply moder RF technology to the 72MHz band and produce a really good long-range capability even at lower altitudes.
@@xjet yes, all accurate points. I don’t fly wings, and prefer close to the ground flights. Fortunately “close to the ground” for me is also high altitude because Norway is a mountainous landscape. The only LOS issues are solid rock ridgelines & mountain peaks which immediately kill your signal regardless of the system or power… you just have to plan & be prepared.
I only fly HDZero or Analog for those flights because they don’t try to hide signal imperfections; a necessary tool up there.
Ultimately there’s certainly things we could do to improve things, but if we’re actually trying to stay on the “right side of the law” we’ve basically reached the limit.
For years I’ve been making & using Helical antennas thanks largely in part to a video you did long ago. You probably haven’t seen my channel much, but you might appreciate my current quad helical setup.
ua-cam.com/video/CYphV5FPbYc/v-deo.html
Pretty fun, check it out if/when you have time.
- Pete
@@xjet Considering how the use of drones have developed (no need to mention how) it's likey just a matter of time.
Good stuff man, didn't really think about interference like this until the hdzero goggles had issues turning off if the crossfire RC was too close. Switching to elrs soon so great to have this info!
Yea, I never experienced that Goggle shutdown issue, fortunately. But I’ve been loving ELRS. If your shopping for a system now make sure to check out Gemini; it’s amazing just how stable the LQ is, huge confidence boaster. It hit me how good it is while reviewing various DVR tests while making this video.
It’s pretty reasonably priced, especially when compared to CRSF equipment.
However, If you mostly do low risk park flying the system is probably overkill…
Thanks for watching, cheers!
great info , first time seeing your videos , new subscriber!
Oh man, welcome. I don’t post that often but it’s because I spend like 40hrs making each video… stupid, but it a hobby & we prefer quality over quantity, right?
Anyway appreciate your support please dig around through my previous videos, and let me know if there’s anything you’d like to see me cover. Cheers!
Never thought about that being an issue thanks for pointing it out
Yea, it’s always best to minimize sources of interference as much as possible when using sensitive RF equipment. So just hoping this is helpful. I’ve just seen a lot of people talking about running 1W or even 2W! And figured it was finally time to make this video… I’ve been experiencing this since before 2021 with various systems and setups.
This was super helpful. I found this happening with my WS and my Boxer at 1W, there seemed to be a hard cuttoff at a certain distance until I reduced the radio to 500mW. I found it a while back but wasn't sure why so thanks! I have since dropped to 250mW and haven't had any problems since :)
Ooo, that’s super interesting actual because people keep saying that “DJI/WS” aren’t affected by this, which I have to believe it is, but don’t have any solid test results to demonstrate this, and my WS Test Quad of course lives up in the mountains now…
But I have heard from you and a few others that they’ve had this issue with WS/DJI. I have a 1s WS VTX that I’m installing into an RC Crawler now, maybe I can run some tests with that.
Thanks for watching and sharing your experience, cheers!
Dude @GiantAntCowboy you're the MAN. You just solved a mystery I've been dealing with for months. The one time I upped my Radiomaster Ranger module from 500mw to 1 watt I had a failsafe that I could not explain. Makes sense now! Thank you!
Excellent, glad to be helpful! Yea there’s just no reason to run these high power outputs. Not only does it create unnecessary noise, but it’s uses more battery and wears out components faster.
I always ran my CRSF TX at 1W, and think I wore it out, because toward the end the performance was bad… I switched to ELRS and love it. Cheap & amazing!
Thanks for watching, appreciate the support!
Try 2 watt in your radiomaster ranger and you will not get that issue
@@ALEFA-ID are you seriously recommending running 2W? Or just joking?
@@GiantAntCowboy Definitely. I always run 2 W using my radiomaster ranger in urban area and this the best penetration I got.
@@ALEFA-ID ok, seems completely unnecessary, but if it works it works!
amazing video mate
Thanks for watching, appreciate the comment!
oh, nice info.. I will thinking about that again. thanks for your video
Thanks for watching, appreciate the comment, cheers!
Awesome info thanks I think I’m going to try dynamic power
Great, let me know how it works out for you. I’m also going to do some Dynamic Power testing with a shorter range freestyle quad. Thanks for watching!
Thank you for this feedback! It makes perfect sense! Going to adjust my TX output. Pretty sure I have them all at 250mw but not 100% sure. I think I’m safe. When I was first experimenting with my new walksnail video system I had it at 1W. And I would get these few seconds of freeze frames. Long enough delays for a crash at low altitude and lost of obstacles.
Yea, 250mW is a happy medium, I’ve been using 100mW because I can, but maybe 250mw would be a nice “just in case” given my “unforgiving flight locations”…
People have said DJI/WS are impacted by this, but it’s all 5.8ghz RF transmission and interference will have an affect. Mostly in the form of latency, or pixelation, as you mentioned, for the two digital systems.
Thanks for watching, appreciate the comment. Cheers!
Great video, thanks. The same applies to FPV video transmitters. When you are out in the field and your friend is coming back to land next to you it will blast 600-800mW of VTX power and will degrade your video even when you are spaced few channels apart.
Yea, really any sort of RF/Electrical noise has an impact. Think about power lines, they’re not transmitting but definitely impact your signal quality.
Thanks for watching as always, appreciate your comments. Cheers!
Good vid! As a Ham operator, the rule is to use as low of output as possible. Good antennas on both receiver and transmitter can make all the difference. Dynamic power is what I use if going long.
Yea, that’s basically my point. Blasting a ton of RF power isn’t necessarily better, in fact comes with several negatives.
Even with dynamic power you should see 500mW-1W unless there’s something wrong with your setup, or you’ve lost video and are looking at the telemetry logs.
Appreciate you checking out the video and sharing thoughts. Cheers!
Yes, this is the way I tend to think. I did, however, notice that on testing my Mobula8 VTX, that the highest power setting actually did perform better. I was expecting all the downfalls of cranking it up to 11 like my ham radio brethren always warn me about, except it actually performed better in all cases. Now my ELRS link is a different story. It performs well at very low power. I don't even want to turn it up. The engineers have done a fine job there. Maybe I went off on a wild tangent, but I like talking about this stuff.
@@mjodr yes, my goal is to run the VTX at the highest power and the control link at lowest power. The Video Feed struggles more than the control link so we want to reduce interference that affects it.
Sounds like this is what you’re saying as well.
@@mjodr Interesting, one of the reasons I went to ELRS was the ability to use low power and have such a great link. My flying buddies have all approved as the old R9M I was using on dynamic power would affect their radio link on the Crossfire system they had, in a very bad way.😵💫
@@smackfpv Yeah as long as you aren't presenting an extremely difficult RF situation ELRS seems to be bulletproof from 25-100 mW. In the distance records attempted most of them are done on the lowest power setting. Obviously they are using nice antennas and are direct LOS, high altitude, aka an easy RF situation, but it just shows how good it works.
Great advice here!!! I have found the same issue and always limited my controller to 500mw and dynamic. I’ve flown super far with just 100mw and the higher power just kills your controller battery quicker and makes it hotter and gives video limited range as you’ve shown here. Great content 😎
Absolutely, a guy Wez last year flew 100km (60miles) with 2.4ghz at 100mW. (That didn’t end well with the local authorities unfortunately) but goes to show ELRS can easily outperform and 5.8ghz Video Link we have… and as you said adds noise, kills the battery, and overheats your electronics which isn’t great,.
Thanks for watching and leaving a solid comment, cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy is that really possible at 100mw? what was the packet rate ?
@@Abhishek__Parihar I don’t remember which packet rate he used; unfortunately the video was removed due to legal actions against him. Total bummer.
But yea he made it no problem, they had people with goggles that were connecting along the path since no FPV system can easily cover that distance.
Really neat.
@@GiantAntCowboy so radiomaster pocket 250mw elrs will provide enough range and stable connection without any problem for a beginner like me ?
@@Abhishek__Parihar if your antennas are not damaged and mounted properly you should have no problem. As you see in my tests even 100mW performs great.
In your OSD make sure you have LQ & RSSI figures set up, and watch these closely on your test flights.
Thank you 👍😍🙏
Thank YOU! ✨
very interesting...
Yup, don’t forget to check out my affiliate links…
@@GiantAntCowboy haha
With this info, I may hit my range goal. We'll have to see!
Yea, give it a try and see if it helps. When first using a lower TX Power though make sure to keep a close eye on LQ & RSSI figures.
If you have poor performance at lower powers it’s an indicator or bad antennas or placement, so focus on that opposed to adding more power.
Let me know if you have success or not, cheers bud!
I'm already in the process of redoing my antenna setup. My old rig did fine on the way out, but my little bardpole couldn't see past the battery on the way back. Was seeing an LQ of 60 after the turnaround. Experience teaches many things!
I highly recommend getting a “True Diversity” RX, and positioning your antennas properly. This makes a huge difference! I used SuperD RX which are like $20, available in both 2.4ghz and 900mhz.
Keep me posted, cheers bud!
Maybe someday. Currently running with antenna diversity, and I gotta pinch pennies. It's just flying the plains so a drop or two won't kill me.
@@jaysonrees738 oh yea, I thought you had a single antenna RX setup. Antenna diversity works pretty well!
Very helpful. Thanks for showing how you set up your quads dual antenna.
One question, how do you position your dual radio antennas? Are they at 0, 45, 90-degrees, etc…
Appreciate the comment, antenna positioning on the quad is really important. Many people get it wrong, even some BNF which is crazy… but it’s really simple. This isn’t even the best setup, but it works fine as you can see.
Regarding my Gemini antennas I point them up to create a “V” shape.
I briefly showed it here, but also show it in my Gemini test video-
ua-cam.com/video/FoSREiyDQDA/v-deo.html
Good question though, thanks for watching, cheers!
Very cool video ! The edit is absolutely fire haha love it 💯💯
Curious to know, if flying indoor, does more mw means more penetration ? For LOS flight it seems really unecessary to go above 250mw Indeed but for indoor flight, maybe wE should goo 500 or 1w for better pénétration ? Idk, maybe it has nothing to do with pénétration 🙎🏽
Thks for the vidéo !
You’d have to test it in your specific location, but i bet 100-250mW would be more than enough to outperform the FPV Feed. But let me know, and Thanks for watching, cheers!
Thanks
Thank you!
Dynamic power has its benefits. Let's say you take off, and the power output suddenly goes absurdly high, even though you are only 200 meters away, you know there is a problem with your gear like a loose antenna connector or possibly high interference close by etcetera (happened to me once). If you fly with fixed output power, you must pay close attention to your RSSI dbm. LQ might not be affected until it drops and then it could be too late. I just feel it's easier to read output power than RSSI signal, but that's me. If you fly with dynamic power the interference wont be constant if it jumps to higher output power. Dynamic power on CRSF never caused me any problem at long range.
Solid input, and suggestions. Appreciate you watching the video and sharing your experience here! I gotta start testing dynamic power again, maybe I’ll start with a shorter range freestyle quad and see how it works. Cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy My pleasure. This is what the FPV community is all about (or should be). I like your videos because they are easy to translate to real flight situations. Especially since I have flown many times in Norway. Great work.
@icp-trek absolutely, I’ve learned a ton from the community and do this simply to share my experience and give back to the hobby. It’s certainly not for the money or fame… lol
Appreciate what you said, I try to keep my videos relatable, fun and interesting.
Great video! I love my EP2 Thought I needed a Boxer to get more range But instead I bought a Pocket cause I love how little and comfy it is. Ordered a EP1 Dual and HUGE difference in range I'm limited to 250 but It feels way more stable than crossfire ever did & I'm super happy with it. Even with Video when everyone blasts the 1200 I feel pretty good on bout 800. Go a little easier on the system. Also Would you be interested in doing a stream with me some time to chat about FPV? like an hour or 2 when your free?
Hey bud, I agree that ELRS has felt more stable for me as well. Could have been my equipment or setup, but I tried to improve it for months before switching to ELRS.
Love the idea of doing a stream sometime, but I gotta think about. My free time is stretched thin, (kids, work, farm, and when there time hobby), that’s why it usually takes me a month to finish a video. Haha! But I’ll reach out as things lighten up.
Thanks for watching, always appreciate your comments. Cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy np bud same here. But basically be low effort chill and chat I'll come up with a few questions for you and you for me and just good times. Love all your homemade stuff and tests! I'm in EST so figure time diff and I'll try to make whenever would work for you good. Want to feature as many different tinkerers in FPV as possible. Build up the little guys!
Great tip! Gonna give it a shot. Planning to dial it down to 100 mW from the usual 1000 mW. Tried bumping it to 500 mW, but didn't feel much difference, probably 'cause the terrain was a bit gnarly. Quick question though, why do they even make transmitters with that kind of power? Is it for better signal penetration or what's the deal? Anyhow, appreciate the solid advice! Happy flying, buddy!
If your setup is working properly there should be no need for more than 100mW since your FPV link will fail before the control link.
I think they make/sell 1W transmitters mostly for “Marketing” reasons… people who “need 1W” to outperform their FPV feeds generally have an issue with their control link setup.
Awesome, looking forward to giving it a go! Just one more thing on a different note: my packet rate was initially set to 200 Hz, but I dialed it down to 50 Hz since I'm rocking an 868 MHz RT. Think cranking it down might give me a bit more range?@@GiantAntCowboy
@@Wild__FPV yes slower packet rate gives more range
Thank you!@@flat-earther
I seem to remember you doing either the ferrite bead or internal capacitor mod to your hdzero goggles to prevent the crsf reboot issue. Do you think that mod may have any impact on the video feed disturbance you show when using crsf at 1watt and close to your goggles?
I didn’t do any ferrite bead/capacitor mods. The video interference is just noise picked up by the antennas/VRX. I’ve actually noticed this issue as far back as 2021. I put a clip of that flight this video for reference. So I’ve seen this behavior on analog, HDZero VRX & HDZero goggles. Additionally I’ve seen it from both Crossfire and ELRS transmitters.
Any high power electronic will create noise, that’s why Cell Towers, Powerlines and even Solar Flares can affect our FPV feed.
Thanks for watching!
@@GiantAntCowboyThanks for doing that testing! It's really useful for me especially because all my HDZero flying has been short-range so far but eventually I'm going to send one!
Nice, I do a lot of longer-range stuff with HDZero and love it. Happy to help, cheers!
I like dynamic power and never worry about it on crsf. Also keep in mind that if youre flying in an urban environment thay could affect your oerformance esoecially at only 100mw i used to fly my tracer at 100mw and failsafed passing and obstacle never happenwd after i increased it
Yea, I gotta test Dynamic Power again for ELRS, sounds like it’s stable now. Urban environments are tricky for sure, but these modern control links should still easily outperform out FPV Feeds.
Appreciate the comment and support, cheers bud!
You are correct. I have the same situation with you. I use 2 watt in my radiomaster ranger and fly my quad in urban area
Yep... in the "old" days with a 70cm long-range system we'd run a coax cable from the transmitter to an antenna on a tripod some distance away from the fpv video receiver antenna to mitigate this... That's still an option with the removable antennas on the radios/modules... but, yeah - I find myself trying to "optimize" my control link until it dawns on me that my fpv link will be gone long before the rc control... Habits from the aforementioned "old" days, still! Cheers -
Haha! Yes 100%, these modern control links are so reliable it doesn’t take much for them to outperform our 5.8ghz FPV systems. The most important this is proper antenna positioning, and honestly use a true diversity RX on all new builds, there like $20!
Thanks for watching, appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
Interesting video, thank you, I'm wonder if 900mhz will affect in same way???
Yes, it does. In this video I show a test for 2021, this was with my old Crossfire setup at 1W.
Good question though, thanks for watching!
would be interresting to see if you could print something arround the radio antenna which shields the signals. like a half faraday cage which only lets singals go out from the front and not up and behind to your goggles
This might work, but it also might have surprising affects. I saw a video years ago by IBCrazy where he taped a piece of copper wire behind a CRSF Diamond Directional antenna and it completely changed its performance. The wire wasn’t attached, just floating behind, which goes to show how sensitive RF equipment is to outside factors.
But it’s always fun to experiment!
Lately, I've had a bigger issue with ws, and what I'm guessing is antenna placement. Normally run everything out the back of my quad, but I keep getting low rssi warnings. I typically run stubby antennas, but I'm starting to suspect that having the receiver antenna too close to the vtx creates a lot of interference. I've only experienced this with my ws quads with stubby antennas. Interference in the video feed, at least with hdzero, feels like common. I haven't heard anyone talk about the vtx interfering with the receiver.
Very interesting, I had a similar RXLoss issue with my Crossfire setup a year or two ago. I swapped the VTX antenna and it seemed to fix the issue.
You can see examples at the end of this video here:
ua-cam.com/video/iLvcdnEneQo/v-deo.html
All I can think is certain antennas, or broken antennas, create strong RF signal interference. Certainly the proximity of antennas will make that worse as well.
On my current builds I always have the ELRS RX/Antennas in the front and VTX/antennas in the rear, seems to work well.
Thanks for watching and sharing thoughts, hope you get it sorted, cheers!
I failsafed elrs on my whoop other day was so shocked. I was inside & flew out the window. Still had video and control just instant failsafe. 25mw with dynamic. Had a wall between me.
Using hdzero 200mw
Very strange, wonder if that’s my “Dreaded Dynamic Power” fear, or just bad luck. If you review the DVR do you see any clues? Like Dropping LQ/RSSI performance, or did it try to switch to a higher power and fail?
I did actually Failsafe ELRS a third time but I don’t mention it because I was doing my penetration runs with a tiny ceramic antenna RX… not it’s intended use.
@GiantAntCowboy the LQ dropped fast. Before dbm got up. Think just not fast enough to switch to higher power cuase dbm didn't go up fast. Wall got between us. But I kept video, lol. This has ELRS I think, a ceramic antenna or copper on top board. Because the antenna already sandwich between boards being at 25mw and then instantly being blocked by wall or car doesn't give it time to raise power. Really on this whoop if I fly outside I need to run atleast 250mw
Yea, maybe best to just run a higher fix output power. 100 or 250. Then you should have an issue. Of course the small ceramic antennas aren’t great as you mention.
Walksnail or HdzeRo? I have the Walksnail vrx and HdzeRo goggles but not sure which one is the best solution if am going to go with Walksnail I will switch to their goggles because the vrx setup is too heavy and lots of wires but the picture in the walksnail looking superior however your video with the v3 looks much better but it’s hard to decide on watching UA-cam so if you consider all? Which one? 😅
Haha! Choices, choices. Both are great, so there’s no wrong answer here.
For me personally if I’m doing “Risky Flights” where the quad could be lost, I 100% prefer HDZero. HDZero doesn’t try to cover up RF Signal imperfections, and that real-time feedback is an important tool to avoid disaster in sketchy spots.
WalkSnail/DJI will always try to repair the image first, then they add latency, blurry image, and eventually a black screen. The problem here is delay, even 500ms is 10m (30ft) at 80kph (50mph). That’s game over if your a couple meters off a mountain ridge line. In my test shown in this video I had a 1600ms (1.6sec) delay recorded and even when it said 30ms it was super delayed. So you can’t trust WS OSD when signal gets bad.
Ok… long answer, sorry. I do however recognize that WalkSnail looks great, especially when signal is perfect, and it’s very flyable. For “zero/low risk flights” I think WalkSnail is an obvious choice. I obviously lost my main WS setup… but will be installing a 1S VTX into a RC Rock Crawler soon which I’m excited about!
(And obviously Racing & Super lightweight builds HDZero also wins.)
But ultimately it’s just about how you plan to use the system. For general park flying or even long-range wings WalkSnail’s negatives are outweighs by its excellent image.
Hope that’s reasonable and helpful insight. Let me know, cheers!
Thanks a lot for your detailed response I think I need to get the 1w HdzeRo and v3 and I’ll have the decision hopefully it will have more range and penetration since the whoop ones are worthless on bigger quads ..and the rainbow screen means for me game over.. but thanks again
@@Switch180fpv absolutely happy to help. Note: HDZero will always require better antennas than DJI/WS because it displays exactly what it receives in real-time.
If DJI/WS miss something, they can take a few ms to request the missing data and fix the image. So if you use basic antennas you’ll have more latency, which you might not even notice, but the image will look near perfect. This is also why they appear to have better penetration.
Obviously you’ve seen my HDZero setup, and Helical antennas aren’t for everyone… but most decent patches or Crosshair antennas offer great performance. I personally recommend running four high gain directional antennas; everyone thinks they are hard to aim, but until you’re 3-4km out you barely have to even try to aim.
What do you run your hdzero VTX mw at when running the transmitter at 100mw? I would think this matters too
I always run HDZero at Max (1W); is that what you mean?
@@GiantAntCowboy yes, thank you! Just wanted to clarify. That is helpful
Is it feasible to add some shielding between the goggles and the radio?
Yes & no. It’s possible shield might cause reflections near the TX antenna and lower it’s performance. Additionally the RF might just fly around the shielding. The best thing would be to separate the TX by a couple meters, but honestly I just don’t think there’s a need to run at high output power. You see in my tests I have near perfect signal in both penetration & range tests at 100mW.
Good question though, thanks for watching, cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy yeah fair enough about the lack of need to run above 100mW. No probs!
I used to run 1watt on tracer. I had low warning on 1watt than any other setting. I have switched to Radiomaster I believe I’m on 250mw. No issues. 🤷♂️
Yea, another point: Running things at max power tends to wear them out quickly. I think that’s what happened to my CRSF setup years ago.
Thanks for watching & sharing your experience, cheers!
I find it interesting that there is this general concept that more is always better. I fly my crossfire at 250 and have never failsafed. And I run my vtx at 500 and get great performance for the type of flying I do.
Exactly, it’s all about finding what you “need to achieve” your goals. Lol, I turned this into a life lesson…
But I agree, sometimes less is more. Thanks for watching and sharing, cheers!
Great video… almost too much information too fast for total amateurs like me :D
With the lower output power of the zorro, I never had such video issues. But tempted by a Gemini system….
Thanks, and yes, I do move quickly… I’m just trying to keep the video short for folks. My thought is people can pause and rewind if needed.
I ran the stock Zorro ELRS for a few months no problem, but the Gemini is incredibly solid. Probably unnecessary but if you do “risky flights” it add confidence!
Appreciate you watching and providing feedback, I’ll try to slow things down a little going forward. Cheers!
I find that people underestimate how far you can fly with 25mW video and 10mW ELRS with proper antennas 😜
After ELRS V3 I have had zero issues with dynamic power. On V2 I had constant problems and just ran 50 or 100mW fixed 90% of the time.
100mW dynamic ELRS lets me fly massive concrete and steel properties with zero issues. It’s unlikely for me to need 250mW, let alone higher, and mind you half my basher builds use a 31mm piece of enamel wire as my antenna between the carbon plates for durability… not even a properly mounted dipole or diversity or anything like that.
Thanks awesome, thanks for sharing. It’s definitely all about setup. You can get away with low power settings if you have proper antennas/setup. Glad to hear you also had Dynamic Power issues but they’re a non-issue now. I’m going to do some testing soon.
Appreciate the support, cheers!
If you're using only 100mW, why do you even use a transmitter module and not the built in transmitter? Sorry if this is a noob question, I'm pretty new to FPV... 😅
The built-in module works very well, and for most people is way more than enough even with only 100mW; (as long as the RX & Antennas on the quad are good); but you will have fluctuations in LQ further out.
What’s special about this “Gemini Module” is that it uses Two TXs & Two RXs which creates near perfect Link Quality in extreme situations.
Honestly though, it’s overkill, largely unnecessary… all new control link gear is way beyond the needs of hobbyists.
In fact I’m actually making a new video examining if we should even use such reliable Control Links. I almost think it would be better to lose control link before video, as long as your GPS rescue works, because then you can still see what happening. As it is now we lose video but still maintain control, effectively flying blind… this is a dangerous situation in many case which can result in a crashed and lost quad.
Long answer, but hopefully helpful or interesting. Good question, cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy Thank you for the detailed answer, very helpful! :)
That's why I always use dynamic power, it keeps it low unless I need it, which is basically never.
Yea, dynamic is a great option. I’ve been meaning to test it again. A while back I tried it but got Failsafes… apparently that was a bug that’s been fixed.
I am always on dynamic (max set to 500) However, even 5-6km away it doesn't go higher then 25mw. Only way to get it to push to 150/250 is with a RP2 antenna on my Firefly when I go behind the house, which you already can guess how good the video link is 😅
Isn’t that amazing! A setup with proper antennas can operate with such minimal power! People need to see/know this stuff. So many people have poor or even broken antennas and they constantly say they just need more power.
I’ve flown my HDZero system out over 4km at only 25mW with no problem. High gain & properly mounted antennas.
The FireFly I definitely know haha! Can barely even carry proper antennas.
Appreciate the comment, cheers!
When doing LR don't use a 5.8Ghz control link AND 5.8Ghz FPV link as they'll interfere with each other in the 5.8 spectrum. For best results 5.8 and 2.4 is a good mix and you can use a filter to clean up your reception.
In this video I’m testing 2.4ghz ELRS & 900mhz CRSF setups. I’ve never even heard of a 5.8ghz control link… is that actually a thing?
Dynamic power with Crossfire did not work for me recently with the big Crossfire Module and a Nano Pro RX!
What do you mean “didn’t work”? Curious to hear what happened. Thanks
A RF spectrum analysis of your transmitter would be interesting. I suspect it outputting a very dirty signal which causes that issue.
AFter all the frequency is supposed to be far away, 2.4ghz vs 5ghz. But if the filtering of the TX is horrific then the 2.4ghz will blurp out all over the entire RF spectrum.
Yea, I don’t have specialty equipment but first experienced this during CRSF tests with Analog & HDZero VRXs back in 2021, and more recently during some ELRS testing with my HDZero goggles. So the issue is consistent across different setups.
My understanding is that strong RF/Electrical Noise even outside the operating RF band can affect sensitive receivers. This can also be seen if you fly close to power lines, cell phone towers, even solar flares can disrupt radio communications.
However to your point, our radio equipment is fairly inexpensive and probably doesn’t really have proper RF shielding or filtering.
My ultimate goal here was to demonstrate that running 1W is basically pointless, wastes battery, creates lots of heat which isn’t good for transmitters, and ultimately can reduce the performance of our FPV feeds… I’ve been running 100mW fixed for over a year now with near perfect performance.
Appreciate you watching and providing insight!
@@GiantAntCowboy I tried adding a link to a spectrum analyzer but UA-cam censors that as misinformation or spam.
I'm not sure if my answer is again censored, Google really is an internet cancer these days.
The RF output is dirty, adding a 2.4Ghz bandpass module on the TX would likely improve vtx receiving quality and allow to up the output strength without those issues.
I can't provide the link to the image
Yea, spam filters, happens to me as well; I gave up on Instagram because of it… but I’ll do some googling about it. Thnaks!
why does 2.4ghz interfere with 5.8 ghz ? I don't get it, Video sytems use 5.8 ghz and ELRS uses ~900 && 2.4ghz
One aspect is harmonics, 2.4GHz second harmonic is 5.8GHz. Another aspect is that when signals are very strong then even being our of band they pass through filters, converters and saturate the receiver crippling its sensitivity. This phenomenon is called "out of band noise". You can find this expression in technical literature. The same applies to FPV video transmitters close to receivers. When you are out in the field and your friend is coming back to land next to you it will blast 600mW of VTX power and will degrade your video even when you are spaced few channels apart. That's why you need to use 25mW in the drone race and general rule of thumb is stay below 200mW when you do a group fly with your friends in the field. It is not to interfere with your friends that are even few channels away from your channel.
@@Mr.Laidukas nice, good to know. What about 868-900 mhz interfering with 5.8, is that less of a concern ?
@@Nemesishk 1. With 868-915 harmonics are less of a concern because each next harmonic is les and less in its power. 2. However sensitivity to out off band noise frequency is very subjective to electronics used. It might be affected less or even more.
@@Nemesishk as Mr.laidukas mentioned there’s harmonics at play, but also it’s just the general RF noise floor being raised.
The issue does happen with CRSF as well, at one point of the video I show a test from 2021 which was with my old CRSF setup at 1W.
Since switching to ELRS and running 100mw my video feed is much cleaner! So figured it was worth doing a video about.
Now my question is , is this still as noticeable without a high gain antenna . This also brings me to the conclusion maybe a base station is good for any long range flight so you can space the transmitter further away from your goggles antenna. Yes you can go through most stuff that your video transmitter won’t . But I don’t believe the controller lost connection first . The delay is about 5 seconds after you loose connection. Unless you changed that setting. I’m convinced you lost transmitting power same time as video.
I’m not saying you’re wrong , I’m just open to the possibility.
High gain antennas definitely pick up more of this interference, I’ve test this in the past but will have to do another follow up comparison. However if you’re not using high gain antennas it’s also unlikely you’ll exceed the range & penetration limits of ELRS at 100mW.
Regarding your comment on delay; I assume your referring to the “WS incident” where is said “my controller was connected for 5secs after losing video”. Here’s my logic:
I matched the last shown OSD elements to the telemetry logs recorded on my TX. After those OSD figures I saw 3-5secs of additional data captured by my TX Telemetry logs. (I have to re-review the logs again for the exact time).
But, What do you mean by the 5 second delay option? Is that a WS or ELRS thing?
I’m also open to discussion, as I could easily be missing something.
@@GiantAntCowboy In my area, and the spot most available for me to fly at is a low area , lots of trees about 500m away and when I get a km out I come very close to losing signal at 100mw, but still have video transmission. I’m using a 13db patch antenna . Testing at 500mw elrs I notice I get more noise in the video feed at 1km distance so cannot fly past that because of video transmission . The transmission at 100mw in other places I can get past 1km no problem . This is all just the one location I fly at . I’m also running analog 850mw vtx
@@GiantAntCowboy Yes, that was the video. I was talking about the beta flight setting for failsafe but you didn’t have that on in the video. I was thinking about the set time before it goes into failsafe mode. Not in the receiver. My mistake.
@@HeliNoobRc Very interesting. Which ELRS RX are your using? And do you have the antennas mounted out on the arms perpendicular to each other?
You saw my forest test, I’m about 600m out in that forest with barely any video (using four helical antennas) but my ELRS still has 95% LQ at only 100mW.
So we should be able to improve your setup I think.
@@GiantAntCowboy I’m not just looking at the lq. I’m watching the db. And I’m close to failsafe of -103 but still have 98 LQ . Have also briefly lost connection during flight. I’m using the happy model elrs module on my tx16s mrk 2. And these test were done with a sub250 4” . Rx antenna is a T off the front of the quad on a tpu mount . Get good line of sight away and to the transmitter
4s or 6s li-ion bat?
The long range test was with a DIY 8000mAh 6s2p pack.
50mw is plenty for me!
Nice! I could probably get away with that as well, but feels safer with a little extra power when flying risky environments.
I'd like to see a test with O3 or the old v2 DJI system, for all we know Walksnail/HD Zero RF input design isn't up to snuff. You know HD Zero goggles turn off when a CRSF transmitter is very close to the goggles? (Mad's Tech covered that whoopsie). Means their EMI shielding is inadequate.
For 900MHz the harmonics shouldn't be an issue, but even with 2.4 ELRS, since the top of the ISM band is 2.5G all you need is to use DJI 50MHz channel 3 (~5900 center freq) to move away from the 5.0GHz where the second harmonic could be an issue.
Yea the issue here I believe is just a High Output RF or Power source in close proximity to a sensitive RX. Strong signals can desensitize any receiver, power lines for example can disrupt our FPV feed is standing in close proximity.
I think all FPV systems including DJI are affected by this, DJI would likely just have higher latency, and maybe some occasional blurring as it tries to sort through the random interference.
I am aware of the CRSF/Goggles issue, but have yet to experience it myself.
Good thoughts, thanks for watching and sharing ideas, cheers!
IMO putting C2TX power on a switch is preferable to Dynamic Power. It is easy with the TBS script to setup power levels for different purposes. (25,100,250 for bench), (250,500,1w for LR). Locating the C2TX antenna away from the operator with a tripod and 6’ coax cable solves most of not all RF bleed through to video systems.
Yea, years ago I figured out how to setup my analog VTX on a switch. It was super useful for bench testing, waiting for satellites, and general antennas testing.
And there’s plenty you can do to further squeeze performance. From a simplicity standpoint my current setup does exactly what I want. Additionally I often hike to locations and so I’m always trying to minimize equipment and weight.
But thanks for watching and sharing, cheers!
@@GiantAntCowboy Same here… All my gear (including First Aid, Binoculars, etc.) fit in a Pelican backpack that leaves both hands free. I usually fly from where cars can’t drive so keeping light AND including water is paramount. I use VAS helicals of different gains on HDZero gear. I’m starting to include a light tripod to mount the Crossfire antenna a few feet away from the goggles to see how that improves things…
I have no clue why anyone wants to use 1 or even 2 watts when flying close and not miles away when 250mw or even 100mw is plenty of power to fly far. I think people see a higher number and think it's better but find out it's really not better at all
Exactly the point here. If you need 1W to avoid RX Loss/Failsafe while flying with a 5.8ghz FPV Feed then there’s something wrong with your control link setup.
Companies release these high power transmitters and people are like “oh 2W, I need that!” but it’s just a marketing ploy… I even gave up 900mhz because 2.4ghz ELRS outperforms basically every FPV system currently available, and with much smaller antennas. I always found those huge “diamond directional” antennas annoying.
Anyway hopefully this video helps some folks, thanks for watching, appreciate the comment!
@@GiantAntCowboy exactly I love my ELRS 2.4gz it really goes the distance you need. I love your videos and I'm always clicking on them. Thank you for your test of performance it shows the real proof of the pudding. 💯❤️my moxon boxer antenna is perfect
@@LehtusBphree2flyFPV thanks, I appreciate your support!
Why are the control link so much stronger than the FPV links? Saying 100mw is will go further than any FPV link mean whoever is designing the FPV links should get fired and hire someone who can actually build a link 🔗 hahaha
A control link handles a lot less data
Control link are transmitting/recovering much less data, like tiny data packets. Additionally they are transmitted at lower frequency which just has much better range & penetration.
Common Example: In our homes we often have 5.8ghz & 2.4ghz Wifi; 5.8ghz is much faster, but if you go far away you’ll only be able to connect to the 2.4ghz Wifi.
We use 5.8ghz for FPV because it has much lower latency, but there is such thing as 2.4ghz FPV and even lower like 1.2ghz which has incredible range, but can only transit a low quality analog image.
Dynamic works fine in my experience, but I always use the latest firmware. I’ve only seen it tick up to 1w once and turned out my receiver antenna was broken, but other than that it’s max 250mw, but the second I go to a flying field it jumps to 500mw and bounces to 1w constantly, I’m guessing from all the other signals in the area. I switched to 915mhz and now it’s 100mw even at the flying field, so frequencies matter here as well.
Nice, thanks for providing this feedback, super helpful. I’m going to test out Dynamic Power again with a couple quads.
Thanks for watching, cheers!