If some guy tells me he can’t be in the same room as a woman who is not his wife, I would take that to mean he’s on some kind of “special” registry and probably move back in with my parents.
Right? I instantly assume a character like that has a..... history... with women. A violent one. If this wasn't a weird conservative Christian movie that character would be the upsetting weirdo villain of it.
The tagline "chivalry makes a comeback" followed by a man refusing to fix her stove until the woman is sitting outside alone in the cold is just mind-blowing
Makes sense. Even ignoring that what we think in the modern day as "chivalry" looks absolutely nothing like real "ye old chivalry", these types are always more interested in the *appearance* of goodness than actually being good in-and-of itself.
Yeah in a more real context, chivalry is essentially the “you need to treat your belongings and toys with respect” lesson we teach kids, except the society that taught it thinks of AFAB femme presenting humans as part of that belongings and/or toys category. And much like how you don’t let your worst behaved toddler follow you into a china shop, a lot of gross dudes who follow “chivalry” act like they’re that toddler and can’t be trusted around a woman without doing something damaging.
@@Deepseadread6 and you. didn't need to comment that. We all make choices. Some of us are just concerned about being inclusive and people like you prioritize giving unsolicited bad advice.
@@jacoosacoon118 I wasn’t trying to be mean or argumentative, saying women in this case is legitimately more inclusive than “afab fem people” because it accounts for intersex and trans women. Women is a broad category that covers a wide degree of experiences, and the comment was specifically narrowing it down while trying to use inclusive language. I’m trans and intersex myself, I’m all for inclusive language it just happens that in this case the language isn’t actually inclusive. Sorry if my comment came across as rude I didn’t intend that but i understand that over the internet it’s hard for intent to translate
therapy is kind of scamy sometimes(not all the time, of course, but largely so. and sometimes the waitlist is so long it takes months...) i suggest personal growth through nature connection, reading books, having a healthy diet, and finding hobbies that fulfill you. and of course, introspection and perspective are super important things to grasp..
@@junkyard_dog18 A good therapist goes a long way. Many people need an objective 3rd party trained in guidance and coping tools to help steer them in the right direction. Those things on their own can also hold tons of scammy, awful things. Tool boxes should be diverse. And especially if you have deep set prejudices, having a 3rd party person helping educate you is crucial.
Unlike his theory, I suspect that not only can you use yours to describe a mechanism and make predictions, you can point to concrete evidence to support it. I think that the only thing Christians "learned" from evolution debates is that theory has some magical significance that offers protection, they just don't understand how.
I wondered the exact same thing. He should just wear a chastity belt when he goes out so no one else's day is disrupted by his inability to control himself when he is alone with a woman
Fifty Shades doesn't pretend to be anything other than a fantasy. Old Fashioned wants people to believe it's reality, and that's what makes it unsettling. Also, how conceited to say 'I can't be in a room alone with a woman,' as if any woman who meets him is going to automatically want him. Please.
Can you specify what piece of media you're referring to? Because the books are exactly that type of problematic and even has layers by being based on another piece of media with the same unsettling nature.
@goodpeople25 I believe they're speaking on the movie format. And i agree with OP. The 50 Shades movie feels VERY fantasy; you know you're watching celebrities do very exclusive rich people things. While Old Fashioned does have a more "realism" feel to it. It feels like watching people I know doing this, & I can't help either of them.
@@goodpeople25I was thinking of the movies - and I'm not saying there aren't obviously problematic things going on there, just that it doesn't seem to be held up as aspirational so much as a fantasy - it's very divorced from real life. It's point is to titillate and entertain. On the other hand, I get the impression that Old Fashioned is intended to be aspirational - that this is what 'good Christian' relationships are supposed to look like. The line between fantasy and reality is blurred, because the maker of the movie *is* trying to make a moral point regarding relationships.
I was a teen boy raised in the height of "so i kissed dating goodbye", a book that kicked off the hyper-fundamentalist Christian anti-dating scene in the late 90s, as well as raised on the idea of "no sex or thinking about sex before marriage", the way we got by was by shaming each other, repression, self-flagellation, and self-hatred, and having very few friends who were girls. It sucked. The author of that book advocated only courtship and all similar no-touch rules that would magically stop divorce and make perfect marriages. He renouced his book, got divorced, and stopped being Christian around 2019.
It becomes increasingly amusing to me how often I hear this story anymore: a person makes an assertion which goes viral before the *hypothesis* (the correct word to use) has even been studied or trial run. Only then, for the person who came up with said hypothesis to denounce it years later... And nobody listens 🙂↔️
That "joke" about Clay being exactly as controlling as Amber's ex, just in slightly different ways seems like a REAL telling on itself moment! RUN Amber!!! Beating your wife is DEFINITELY old-fashioned!!
This is kind of exactly why i feel like this movie does EXACTLY what it sets out to do without truly realizing it? Clay refuses to work on himself and shapes his decided love interest (who is in an incredibly vulnerable situation) so that she follows his rules and must meet all his needs, without any level of regard for her, as he feels his way is best and nonnegotiable. That sounds like a very accurate reminder of the past!
i don't mind people having boundaries, but as a history hobbyist i wanna point out that 99.9% of people in The Olden Days would think clay's pov was bonkers. like even in rural ohio, 1800s christian men would be *appalled*. "you're making a woman stand outside in the cold while fixing her stuff because YOU don't wanna be 'indecent'? that's the most indecent thing you can do!' like i honestly don't mind if men and women don't want to hold hands or hug outside of marriage for religious reasons--i don't understand it myself but it's fairly harmless. but refusing to enter the same apartment as her because they aren't married is absolutely asinine. only people as fundamental as him think he's being reasonable 😭
'I am learning to control myself. The only thing needed for this is my strong mind...and that no woman exists in a 10 mile radius around me so I don't get tempted. Easy!'
I feel like there's something actually super realistic about a woman leaving an abusive relationship and immediately pursuing psychological safety in a "safe" man. He's like the ideological opposite of her ex, and that means he's perfect to her, but she never actually had a period of healing afterwards.
This is why I went straight into therapy after I left my abusive “Christian” marriage. I was afraid of this exact thing. I didn’t know how I ended up in an abusive marriage, but I was sure as fuck gonna figure it out.
@@anntares172yeah. I grew up in a neglectful abusive family. Refused anything but friends with benefits.. until u was 24, a drug addict ih heroi. And i neet a "safe" guy. He never hit me. But instead was a child. A frickin lying manipulative covert narcissist who never apologized or was ever wrong and we had a great time the first 5 years. And slowly he made me his mommy. He made me feel like i was empty without his love. I grew to hate him. 18 years i wasted. I left and refuse t🎉o bother with a relationship ever again. Tried it. Didnt luke it. Luckily i stuck to my gubs about kids. I never wanted them. Byr ge really tried to guilt me into it. I was telling him go find someone that wants them if you want them so bad. Lol that was the end. He got cirrhosis of the liver from his drug and drinking in his teens and 20s and so i had to stay an extra 3 years cause when he healed from that enough he got c-dif at the hospital.that took forever to heal. But then i left vegas and am happyish now I hope you all have found your happyish
Willie's totally right how this is just as or more dangerous than 50 shades - at least that one is depicted as "wooo spooky sexy dark f'd up" and this one's like "so holy and safe and righteous". Also, toxic/abusive people BENEFIT from people who are more obviously toxic/abusive. Like, "look i didn't do physical violence, i'm great!" even though they're a walking red flag
this movie seems so close to calling bullshit on itself. • Amber likens her abusive ex’s “no nail polish rule” to one of Clay’s many rules • Clay can’t even give her the comfort of “no, I’d never do anything _that”_ without undercutting it massively with a (?)joke • Amber says her ex didn’t mean to break her hand …as if the movie _understands_ that abusive partners often don’t _intend_ to be violent, that’s how they lash out when they can’t control their partner as much as they feel entitled to! Like Willie points out, we never see what happens when Amber refuses one of Clay’s rules. But somehow, “this situation is a time bomb” is not the point the film’s trying to make??
She has a dreamcatcher AND a cat? And she drives until she runs out of gas? Quirky. So how does she get to the apartment viewing and meet her floppy-haired future beloved?
Maybe she didn't literally drive until her car stopped due to being out of gas, she just stopped to fill up when it was almost empty, and then moved into the town where the car's needle started to hit "E"? (Or I guess she could have walked to a gas station and taken a gas can back to the car, filling it enough to get her to the apartment?)
Dating doesn't have to be debauched or even involve sex at all if its not what people want. Sex isnt inherently bad either, and I think that message is very problematic. This could easily be a horror movie with the right score .. I don't really know what he thinks is going to happen if he's just alone with a woman, he's both creepy and boring all at once.
As usual, with Christian movies, it’s about virtue signaling. He’s trying to show off how “safe” he is. But of course it’s the opposite because in order to do that he has to ignore her needs and preferences and control their entire relationship.
Yeah before I became aware of Christian fundamentalism's take on it, I just thought "dating" was either an adjective ("those two are dating" = those two are in a relationship), or just any situation where two (or more) people go out of their way to spend time together, because they have romantic intentions? You don't have to have sex or even kiss while dating, that's all optional, this was always allowed
This “theory” 🙄 is known as the Billy Graham rule. Billy Graham famously refused to be alone in any space (including an elevator or a car) with a woman who wasn’t his wife. Other well known men such as pastors and politicians (cough Mike Pence cough) have since adopted this “rule.” Growing up in the 90s/00s evangelical church, I knew teenage boys who adopted this “rule” because it was cool and holier than thou. To me it was a huge red flag 🚩
These people really don’t care that they are inconveniencing every single woman around them💀 like imagine having to wait for the next elevator every single day cause this guy can’t share his space with you, bestie get a grip
I was dogsitting once, a pair of mormons came to the door to do their thing. It was a complete shock to me at the time, since he'd never had aggressive mannerisms before, but the dog I was watching wriggled his way out of his collar, ran out and bit one of the men. I was of course equal parts mortified and terrified. I immediately put the dog in the backyard and asked him to come inside so we could disinfect it ASAP (it didn't break the skin but I still wanted to clean and bandage it properly) and he refused, explaining that he couldn't be alone in the house with me. Even with his buddy right there as a "witness". Even though he had just been bit by a strange dog. Even though I was desperately wanting to do everything in my power to help. I ended up running to the bathroom and carrying a thing of disinfectant, a cotton swap, and a bandaid to the front door (home did not have a porch) and having to basically juggle all that stuff right there. And he still wouldn't let me do it, because idk maybe hand holding isn't allowed either, I ended up just handing them to him while I called up the homeowner. I make it a point not to put down other people's beliefs just for being different, but that one really seemed to me to be awfully difficult to uphold in an emergency.
@@tiacat11 how inconvenient and frustrating for everyone involved! You were trying to do the right thing and treat his wound. But I guess there's a chance you might try to seduce him? 🙄 Cuz apparently women just try to seduce everyone all day long and men possess not even an ounce of self control (or so these religious types would have you believe).
@@tiacat11did you invite the companion in too? Because Mormon missionaries actually aren’t allowed to be apart from their companions at all, except in the bathroom.
I CANNOT believe you're covering this movie! My Dad is OBSESSED with it. He and my step-mom even went to the facebook fan-page meet-up held where it was filmed and met a bunch of the actors. My dad says it got him through his divorce with my mom
I'm an ex-mormon but I was a mormon missionary and there was a rule where we weren't allowed to be alone with a woman ever. I lived this man's life for 2 years. I'm in therapy. Hi Willie, would you be interested in some of the cringe mormon videos? There is an endless supply and they deserve the criticism.
*support hugs, if thats somethin you consent to* I managed to escape the whole missionary thing as a disabled person, but havin known so many men who when through it, and havin been the woman home alone who wanted desperately to let them use the bathroom, and rest thier feet while they had a drink of water or a bite to eat, it broke my heart to watch them sip thier glasses in the cold or the boilin heat all because of the bullshit rules the church held. Yall truely deserved better. Im glad you made it out, and I hope therapy goes well and that you are able to fully heal and make a life that is peaceful and fulfillin 🦋
Please, Willie, accept this offer and treat us yer look at the absolute bafoonary that is Mormon media! It's been too long since ive been exposed and I need a reminder so I have somethin new to bring ta my therapist 😂
Omg we fed the missionaries one time when my dad was out of town and they had to eat on the back porch, but at least the weather was nice and they had a table and chairs and all 😅 we had no idea it was a rule because no one had ever mentioned it. (Also exmo)
So many guys cast themselves in the movies they wrote and directed where they play a perfect character. They all want to be Neil Breen, but they can never be Breen
Red Letter Media calls them black tank top movies. Not only are there quite a few written/directed/starred, but in many they wear a black tank top lol!
Yes, and it’s particularly gross that they often use casting as an opportunity to meet a lot of hot actresses. I’ve even seen casting notices say things like: “no acting experience necessary as long as you have the right look.” Makes me want to vomit. 🤮
Cinema Snob reviewed this years ago and it really stuck with me. He overlayed scary music to show how this could easily be a horror movie and its just so true of these messagey movies
Also can we talk about how this attitude toward women that you can't EVER BE ALONE with one is inherently patriarchal and holds women back in educational and occupational environments. I went to Bible college and there was a clear difference between how the men were treated and the women because the male professors were perfectly comfortable providing mentorship for male students but female students were held at arm's length and treated like there was no path toward a serious career that wasn't music or teaching children and other women. I did have a male professor tell me that our "teaching" class for women was basically the exact same course as the "preaching" class for men and I was also told I was just as good as anybody in his "preaching" class for men, but there was no path for me to actually use that skill if I didn't want to be a "women's teacher" and preach exclusively at like women's conferences and shit. I'm not really part of the religion anymore and I'm unpacking how much Christian sexism impacted me throughout my life. TL;DR Christian sexism isn't fun or innocent or romantic and I hate this movie
Another matriculant of PCC, perchance? 'Cause we weren't allowed to be alone with the opposite sex in a room. Men and women were not allowed physical contact AT ALL, including indirectly, like holding a hymnal together. Not allowed. So glad I deconstructed.
@@olgs37 thankfully I dodged that bullet, my mom wanted me to go there but I told her there was no way I was going to a college that was gonna make me wear pantyhose to class, my school was slightly (ONLY SLIGHTLY) less conservative
This isn't the first time I've heard about some Christian men refusing to be alone with a woman, but the first time it drove home how annoying it would truly be. Like it's one thing to not invite a woman over it insist on driving somewhere separately, but throwing her out in the cold while he's her landlord fixing stuff? That's just nonsense
Well if he's in the same room as her, what's to stop them from fornicating? LITERALLY NOTHING. Not his religion, or her consent, or his self control (possibly doesn't exist?) or the fact that they don't know each other...
@@joearnold6881 I thought they were saying “forced celibacy” is hard to understand because not wanting sex is natural for them, not something they have to force themself to do
I'll admit I was originally a bit charmed by the "I promised I would never be alone in a room with a woman that's not my wife," because I assumed it was a promise that he made to...y'know...his wife? And like maybe she died and he was like still trying to honor his love for her in a sort of weird but harmless(?) way that he could move past with some good old fashioned character development. But yeah, then I realized he made the promise to himself and welp.
Honestly the phrasing super implies that. Like especially cuz he doesn't say "I promised myself" or "I made myself a promise" or he could of said "unless the woman is my wife" or something it's just really weird & totally stuck out to me as well.
I don't even think there was a time in "recent" history (like, post-1800s) when men and women could never be alone together unless they were married? Chaperones were a thing when young people were courting, but there were still times when an unmarried woman and man might be alone together (a nearly-empty train car, a doctor's appointment, some instance where she might need to meet with a lawyer or detective; female passengers and male chauffeurs/carriage drivers... there's probably others, idk*). Clay isn't being "old-fashioned," or "chivalrous," he's thinking of a time that didn't really exist (at least, not since women started being allowed to exist in public and participate in public life... Does he object to that?). Also yeah, "I can't be alone with any woman who's not my wife" is deeply sexist (what if an employer or supervisor said that? He wouldn't be able to meet with female employees in his office for performance reviews or disciplinary issues... It would end up creating a workplace inherently less open to women than men, and be discriminatory). It also sounds like something a sexual predator would say. (*Also literally cases of female professionals, who did exist back then and since medieval times, meeting with male clients. Female portrait-painters alone with male portrait subjects, etc. That's been a thing since the Renaissance.)
The way that Clay has vowed to never be alone in a room with a woman who’s not his wife is deeply worrying to me, and it makes me wonder how old he was when he took this vow and what happened to his family. Did he suddenly move into a garden shed so as not to be forced to be in close proximity to his mother? Is he the sort of man who deems it necessary to wear a chastity belt to guard his virtue? Is the vow meant to protect women from him or to protect him from the women he’s totally sure will throw themselves at him otherwise? I think the story would have been improved if he held the beliefs and lived the life of a self-flagellating medieval monk. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a romance story with someone like that as the love interest. It could be some kind of “don’t judge a book by its cover” thing, alongside a typical “break the stuffy, boring person out of their shell” plot.
10:34 That was super gross and no way to run a business. So if he's a shopkeeper and there's only the one customer who happens to be a woman he's going to leave his store unattended?
i imagine it’s way worse and he just discriminates against women shopping on their own, he probably imposes a rule that women must be chaperoned while in his store
Clay says that who we are when we're single is who will be when we're married, but he says it while refusing to be alone with a woman, with a screen door on the other side. How does he expect to be different with a woman when he's married, if this is his theory
Clay's friend talking about how he ended up married because there was never a good time to break up with her is the most "are the straights okay" thing I've heard all day. Also, here to tell you, not having sex before you marry someone does not lead anywhere good. Also also, "50% of marriages end in infidelity"? Citation needed please. Great job, Willie, keep 'em coming. You are a funny and handsome knitting witch man. 👍
Infidelity is incredibly common, and it has everything to do with the unrealistic expectations we are taught to have of romantic partners. If you have any interest at all in history / sociology / anthropology, the book Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State by Engels is a fascinating read that can be found for free online. There are even audiobook versions on UA-cam.
@@justinwatson1510 Oh wow, thanks! The numbers are higher than I would’ve thought (and of course vary from survey to survey), and on a rewatch, he doesn’t say “*end* in infidelity”, he just says, “involve infidelity”, so I stand corrected on that.
@@Ticket2theMoon for the record, I agree that the straights definitely are not ok, and I also agree that not having sex before marriage is a stupid decision that will, in all likelihood, not lead to good outcomes for either party. My knee-jerk reaction is to blame Christianity because that is what was most directly responsible for most of the shit I had to unlearn, but Christianity didn't come to exist in a vacuum and was just kind of formalizing traditions that were already deeply ingrained in the society of the time. That's why I tell everyone to read that book by Engels; well, that and the hope that reading Engels will lead them to become curious about reading Marx. Lol
i may be wrong here but there might also be a conflation of terms going on. around 50% of marriages end in divorce and i feel like he might be considering divorce to be a type of infidelity...
Really great video as always. My thoughts on the use of "theory" in the movie: evangelicals tend to purposefully misuse the term to undermine the scientific uses, especially as it relates to evolution.
This movie sounds like it would have been so much better if it was just about Amber. Like instead when she moves in the apartment she notices a stray cat and starts feeding them. There can be a theme about heeling and learning to trust again. Yes I’m saying we should replace the love story with a different one with the cat. The love between humans and animals can be really sweet and wholesome and I would much rather watch that than a movie pushing toxic ideas about romance.
If someone said "I'm not allowed to be alone in a room with a woman who isn't my wife" I'd immediately go "What the hell is wrong with his wife, I hope he gets out of that situation :
The behaviour in this movie kind of exemplifies the idea that there are no good or bad actions, only good or bad people. Like a good person can't do a bad action because they're good: they're godly, they're chaste, they're whatever. Their actions are justified by their inherent goodness. Chilling.
It’s usually the moment when you’re fully convinced of your own holiness that the Devil shows up. (or you decide to invade Iraq) Yes I’m rereading the memoir and confessions of a justified sinner by James Hogg.
...cabin in the woods, case of bottled water and no distractions...yeah, I'm definitely getting the vibes that the 'lifelong bride' has been kidnapped by a guy living off the grid
I think that you can 100% do a romance without sex, and that’s proven by how many teen romances stand the test of time and are super enjoyable! Hell, you can even have Christian values in a romance and it be enjoyable by non-Christian audiences (I love The Last Song and A Walk to Remember). But what doesn’t work is shoehorning a “romance” into a gross display of someone’s deep seated Christian-flavored misogyny. The main character’s backstory being about escaping an abuser just to have the next loser make a joke about also abusing her is so so so gross. This movie sucked. Love you, Willie, thanks for sharing!! 😂
Hey Willie this is a comment. I grew up in that culture and was taught the whole don't kiss before marriage, never be alone, and a bunch of other rules like that... It sucks and is toxic, i agree i don't want to kink shame but when that kink was forced on me as early as 10, well, I at least think you are fine here haha.
This nonsense can extend to family members. I knew an elderly man who wouldn’t accept a ride from his daughter in law because it wouldn’t be appropriate to be alone with her.
38:19 Yeah, that sounds about right. Without help people do tend to go from one abusive relationship to another. While this guy might not break her hand he would break her spirit. He's the type to subtly put her down because things aren't the exact way he wants them.
The intro reminded me of that one time when my best friend sent me an enamel pin and the post office notified me that they tried to deliver a package but i wasn't there so i had to go pick it up. I didnt know what the package was for and only that it came from an address in Russia. So i had a panic attack creating a story in my head aboit how it could be a nefarious rando across the globe trying to plant dangerous goods on me. I told the post office to discard it and left shaking and nearly crying. I texted my bestie about it and she explained that it was a birthday gift. It was a pin of that dog in the burning room saying, "Everything is fine." So I returned to the post office later and sheepishly asked them to actually let me sign for the package. ...anxiety is a wild ride
My first boyfriend and I used premarital counseling workbooks after only a couple months of dating, maybe less. He became my abusive ex-husband. Yay evangelical purity culture?
Sis, I am there with you. It was a foregone conclusion that we were “dating for marriage” pretty much from day one. So I ignored every red flag and opportunity (and very clear sign that I should) to escape, married him, and stayed with him for 14 years. It’s wild to think back on those early days now and the attitudes that kept me in it when it seems so obvious now that I should have gotten out.
@@Ticket2theMoonI'm so glad you got out! Looking back, I feel like we were groomed to be handed off to the first man our parents approved of. All the messages we were receiving from home and the church were warning us that once a "suitable" man wanted us, we should be the most docile, forgiving, submissive souls possible. Life is so much better outside of that mess.
Ugh, this movie is basically ‘But what if Magical Thinking worked, though?!’ And I hate it. But you treated it with a blend of ridicule and compassion that made it bearable. And now more about some toxic beliefs that encounter in my life. So it’s a win in the end?
I was horrified during that dudes monologue where he clearly didnt stay with his wife because he loved her...he stayed because he never found a convenient time to dump her and just settled 😧
I'm used to seeing some weird and off-putting stuff in Christian movies, but my jaw straight up hit the floor during the conversation about the nail polish. It was a one-two punch because BOTH of them said screwed up things. "That sounds like something you'd come up with, haha!" GIRL, WHY-
What a wild movie. The incongruity between the guy's beliefs and his actions and the fact that no one gets to question them at any point tells me that there was exactly one writer and he took no notes.
i feel like these christian protags wind up surrounded by odd soulless characters bc their writers have an obsession with using tragic, gritty downsides of life as cautionary tales but making them the result of not doing christian enough things, which removes 80% of character reasoning or building. as a result creepy catcall guy isn't tragic, he's just doing it unchristian and getting an unchristian outcome so we don't need to know anything else
My mum is staunchly against sex before marriage. It was hard for her to hide her disappointment when I ended up pregnant before marriage. I was 20 weeks pregnant walking down the isle. (and for those curious, NO it was not a shotgun wedding. We got engaged first...then got preggo.) Mum asked me why I was so insistent on sex before marriage and I laughed. "Mum, would you buy a car without looking under the hood or giving it a test drive? Would you buy a house without testing that the plumbing worked right and the electricity connected? Without an inspection? Would you buy a life long subscription to a single meal without tasting it first? NO. Of course you wouldn't so why would I walk into a marriage without making sure our plumbing worked, that it caused sparks, that our outlets were compatible, and we both liked that single flavor enough to live with it for the rest of our lives? That would be the ultimate foolishness. So yah, we gave it a test drive first...ok, several test...daily test drives first!"
You hit the nail on the head, “reformed serial killer vibe.” The man made that vow, but he is perfectly fine with leering at her through the screen door. Ick! Oh, and, yeah, “what we do when we are single is what we do when we are married.” Indeed. You see a woman as an object when you are single, you will see your wife as an object when you are married. God forbid you develop an interest in a person by dating them and continue to date when you are married.🙄😂…been married for 16 years. My husband and I do still do the things with each other that we did when we were single. We talk to each other, we listen, we spend time together and alone. We have children, so we also spend time as a family…we go out. We have sex. We do projects together. We share our dreams about the future. We love and support each other. So, yeah, basically all the stuff we did when we were single, except that now we only have one house payment instead of two and we file our taxes together.
There were some twists in this movie that were straight up jaw dropping. I don't know how a functioning person in society could write those and think its okay
Is it possible Clay confused “theory” with “theology”? Maybe he was trying to avoid the religious connotations of the word theology and thought theory was the secular equivalent?? That’s the only thing I can think of
gonna be fully honest, if I met someone who said they'd made a vow never to be alone with a woman who wasn't their wife, my first thought wouldn't be "this person is single and very religious", it would be "damn your Domme sounds intense"
Funny part about this is that old timey dating scene was pretty wild too. Girls and guys could have as many dates with however many people they wanted and it was assumed there'd be no sex so parents actively encouraged it and when you knew you liked someone more than others you'd "go steady" and then you'd consider marriage. Unless he's thinking back to biblical times where girls were sold in exchange for live stock then these are the old fashioned times he's thinking of and his stupid theory would've seemed even more ridiculous back then.
How old is the main guy SUPPOSED to be? Was the porn stuff from college days, and was THAT 9 years ago? Because if so they're trying to tell me that this man is like...round'about 30-35?! Somehow I feel like this is more egregious than the 26 year old teenager trope. Especially between him and the antique guy with the gray roots and half his hair dyed. Also love watching Willie try to pose for the thumbnail at the end, every time. It reminds me of myself trying to take a selfie, or even figure out how to pose a drawing.
it's probably been said, but i still think it's insane that this guy refuses to be alone in a room with anyone who isn't his wife. dude, you own a fucking store. unless you have employees (which raises a whole other issue in terms of potentially not hiring women, which would be textbook gender discrimination), you're going to have to be alone with women sometimes! also "why is that weird effeminite witch man knitting when it's about a christian movie?" is such a thing to worry about, and frankly i relate to thinking that way a little too much
The notion that the entire relationship doesn't change when they have sex is so wrong-headed. Whether they call it dating or not, courtship playacting exists. They can stay on their best behavior until the deal is sealed, only showing their true colors when it's going to be hard for an abused partner to disentangle themself. And besides that, how is a man refusing to be alone with a woman who is not his wife ANY kind of guarantee that he can be trusted to be good to her when there's nobody watching?
"A lot of the boundaries we've thrown away were there to protect us..." he can't help but put the blame on her for being abused. if only you didn't date some strange man and lust over a relationship then you wouldn't have put yourself in that situation. so gross
39:59 im sorry but im going crazy: "protect us" from what??? This is literally some "am not allowed near schools" speach. The fact they wrote this as a "healthy balanced christian man" having his moment thing is beyond me
As a long time knitter and fiber artist myself, seeing you knit and finding your videos were "knitting time with Willie" was a huge reason for me to keep coming back to your content. It's akin to crafting with a friend while gossiping about something crazy that happened. Please keep it up, it makes me smile!
“ aw man I can’t wait to watch a video about an obscure film “ “My grandmother got kidnapped and sent to Michigan because she found out the truth about cough drops. Also I’m afraid of flying clowns” Good humor . I shall subscriber
“Dating doesnt train us to be good life partners, it just trains us to be good dates.” I- I just- What? Isnt marriage just dating someone for the rest of your lives (ideally, I guess). Does this dude actually not go out on dates with his wife, romance her, do literally anything with her? This guy definitely put a ring on his wife’s finger, sat down in his recliner, and asked her to bring him a beer.
Ooofff this movie sounds really hard to watch. I feel it’s going to be used by horrible ‘Christian’ men to justify misguided arguments. Thank you for your analysis!
thankfully this film is VERY unlikely to reach anyone who doesn't already think this way anyway. more than anything else it's a glimpse into the reality that a whole lot of christians are just in cults
If you tell me you can't be in a room with a woman that's not your wife I'm gonna assume you can't trust yourself and you're going to assault or hit on me. That's so incredibly toxic.
I always forget that these behaviors are weird and abnormal to people outside of the belief system… I was raised evangelical and it was fairly common for a man and a woman to not be alone together. It still feels weird to be alone in a room with a guy and I’ve been out of the religion since 2019/20
I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and we had those rules too. I remember when I was still a part of it that a couple couldn’t be alone together without a chauffeur
I also get super anxious about random phone calls! I dunno why but it just freaks me out like I somehow just assume it's something bad. Imagine being a landlord and you won't go in the house you're showing to a female tenant. If I was that woman I would be like "Uhhhh is there a gas leak or something? Think I will keep looking..." ALSO isn't it so telling how so many of these Christian movies involve a "traditional man" who wants a "traditional marriage" but ALWAYS has to convince a "modern" woman to become traditional for him. I think there is an element of power fantasy to it for religious men that they can "tame" a non-traditional woman into their perfect traditional wife who is now stuck at home and dependent on them. They don't really want a woman who is already traditional, they want the satisfaction of trapping a wild, non-traditional woman so they can have her to themselves. All these movies do it. On the flip side, movies with women as the main character often involve her accepting the man who is ALREADY traditional.
If a guy told me that he'd promised to never be in a room alone with a woman he isn't married to, I'd make extra sure that *I am* never alone with him in a room, because I'd be afraid of what he thinks he'd do if he ever were alone with a woman. Also, now that I think about it, I'm wondering how far these fundies want to go with this purity crap. At which point do they just go back to the parents picking husbands or wives for their children and force-marry them because talking to someone of the opposite sex before marriage is just too much. With this premise of "never in a room alone with a woman" and "not dating", how would that even work, realistically? For the majority of people, they do not live close to each other or have reason to meet and possibly talk to each other on a regular basis, beyond at the workplace, maybe. Are you supposed to just ask someone you find attractive to marry you because you saw them a few times in the grocery store or something? They obviously had to construct a pretty special situation to make it plausible for the two protagonist to even have any reason to speak with each other.
they would LOVE to go back to parents picking spouses for their children and frankly if left unopposed i don't think it would take long to get there. honestly there are probably at least some small communities where it still happens
Couldn’t get comments or live chat to work during the premier. Just wanted to say the story for the ad was way too relatable and I wasn’t expecting to be personally called out like that
Having just moved to Ohio last spring I drove over that exact same bridge at 8:15 from WV, on US-33 near Ravenswood, into OH wherein I also screamed at the top of my lungs while pumping my fist with my cat in the backseat of the car. But my cat was buckled into his triple-wide carrier in my car’s backseat and I didn’t have a dream catcher on the rearview mirror so I imagine Willie would be a lot more approving of how I conducted myself.
Actually Willie, 10:22 is basically the signal every cute dirty blonde Ohio boy gives to indicate their interest in you. It is a warning for you to be aware they are extra kinky in bed. At least this is what I’m told.
OMG, I didn’t know Ma Ginger from LVT’s Dogville had a cameo in this movie. She’s even attending to her famous Gooseberry bushes at 16:49! Lauren Bacall’s looking a little worse for the wear though. The Ohio winters will do that to you.
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If some guy tells me he can’t be in the same room as a woman who is not his wife, I would take that to mean he’s on some kind of “special” registry and probably move back in with my parents.
It has the same energy as "I'm not allowed to be around children unsupervised."
Right? I instantly assume a character like that has a..... history... with women.
A violent one.
If this wasn't a weird conservative Christian movie that character would be the upsetting weirdo villain of it.
@@MrxstGrssmnstMttckstPhlNelThot he is still the villain. The gaslighting breaks the 4th wall.
That was our former Vice President. Mike Pence actually said he won’t be alone in a room with a woman who is not his wife.
@@kallista5194 yeah but I mean like the movie would recognize it if it wasn't a messed up conservative nightmare movie
The tagline "chivalry makes a comeback" followed by a man refusing to fix her stove until the woman is sitting outside alone in the cold is just mind-blowing
Makes sense. Even ignoring that what we think in the modern day as "chivalry" looks absolutely nothing like real "ye old chivalry", these types are always more interested in the *appearance* of goodness than actually being good in-and-of itself.
Yeah in a more real context, chivalry is essentially the “you need to treat your belongings and toys with respect” lesson we teach kids, except the society that taught it thinks of AFAB femme presenting humans as part of that belongings and/or toys category.
And much like how you don’t let your worst behaved toddler follow you into a china shop, a lot of gross dudes who follow “chivalry” act like they’re that toddler and can’t be trusted around a woman without doing something damaging.
@@averyeml you can just say women 😭
@@Deepseadread6 and you. didn't need to comment that.
We all make choices. Some of us are just concerned about being inclusive and people like you prioritize giving unsolicited bad advice.
@@jacoosacoon118 I wasn’t trying to be mean or argumentative, saying women in this case is legitimately more inclusive than “afab fem people” because it accounts for intersex and trans women. Women is a broad category that covers a wide degree of experiences, and the comment was specifically narrowing it down while trying to use inclusive language. I’m trans and intersex myself, I’m all for inclusive language it just happens that in this case the language isn’t actually inclusive. Sorry if my comment came across as rude I didn’t intend that but i understand that over the internet it’s hard for intent to translate
Guys will make a whole movie justifying their break up trauma instead of going to therapy
Which is sad cause I genuinely think if more men, specifically, made a real effort to go to therapy, the world would just be a better place
For real, and they need to knock it off. Just go to therapy. Go. You'll be fine.
therapy is kind of scamy sometimes(not all the time, of course, but largely so. and sometimes the waitlist is so long it takes months...) i suggest personal growth through nature connection, reading books, having a healthy diet, and finding hobbies that fulfill you. and of course, introspection and perspective are super important things to grasp..
Don’t you know therapy makes you GAY if you go to therapy your BALLS FALL OFF
@@junkyard_dog18
A good therapist goes a long way. Many people need an objective 3rd party trained in guidance and coping tools to help steer them in the right direction. Those things on their own can also hold tons of scammy, awful things. Tool boxes should be diverse. And especially if you have deep set prejudices, having a 3rd party person helping educate you is crucial.
My "theory" is no one should be in a room alone with Clay
It's not a theory if it's objective fact
Unlike his theory, I suspect that not only can you use yours to describe a mechanism and make predictions, you can point to concrete evidence to support it.
I think that the only thing Christians "learned" from evolution debates is that theory has some magical significance that offers protection, they just don't understand how.
That was too funny. I spit out my water on that one.
I concur.
Ok wait, he won't be alone in a room with a woman, but he owns a business? If a woman comes in antique shopping does he just lock the doors and hide?
I wondered the exact same thing. He should just wear a chastity belt when he goes out so no one else's day is disrupted by his inability to control himself when he is alone with a woman
Maybe he has a panic room and you have to slip your payment through a mail slot into it.
And in a niche of retail - antiques - that brings in a ton of women. Dude should've sold old tools or something
Maybe if counts as "public"?
Not until he kicks her out.
Fifty Shades doesn't pretend to be anything other than a fantasy. Old Fashioned wants people to believe it's reality, and that's what makes it unsettling. Also, how conceited to say 'I can't be in a room alone with a woman,' as if any woman who meets him is going to automatically want him. Please.
Can you specify what piece of media you're referring to? Because the books are exactly that type of problematic and even has layers by being based on another piece of media with the same unsettling nature.
Yeah. Either he’s really conceited or he is a threat to women who can’t abide waiting for consent.
Nightmarish either way!
@goodpeople25 I believe they're speaking on the movie format. And i agree with OP. The 50 Shades movie feels VERY fantasy; you know you're watching celebrities do very exclusive rich people things. While Old Fashioned does have a more "realism" feel to it. It feels like watching people I know doing this, & I can't help either of them.
I mean, we’re all Jezebels just trying to cause a good Christian man to stumble. 😉
@@goodpeople25I was thinking of the movies - and I'm not saying there aren't obviously problematic things going on there, just that it doesn't seem to be held up as aspirational so much as a fantasy - it's very divorced from real life. It's point is to titillate and entertain. On the other hand, I get the impression that Old Fashioned is intended to be aspirational - that this is what 'good Christian' relationships are supposed to look like. The line between fantasy and reality is blurred, because the maker of the movie *is* trying to make a moral point regarding relationships.
I was a teen boy raised in the height of "so i kissed dating goodbye", a book that kicked off the hyper-fundamentalist Christian anti-dating scene in the late 90s, as well as raised on the idea of "no sex or thinking about sex before marriage", the way we got by was by shaming each other, repression, self-flagellation, and self-hatred, and having very few friends who were girls. It sucked.
The author of that book advocated only courtship and all similar no-touch rules that would magically stop divorce and make perfect marriages.
He renouced his book, got divorced, and stopped being Christian around 2019.
It becomes increasingly amusing to me how often I hear this story anymore: a person makes an assertion which goes viral before the *hypothesis* (the correct word to use) has even been studied or trial run. Only then, for the person who came up with said hypothesis to denounce it years later...
And nobody listens 🙂↔️
At least he was willing to admit he was wrong. Sucks how he contributed to traumatizing so many teenagers, though.
Aaaaa same, IKDG & fkg Dobson were my 90s adolescence. So harmful I'm still unpacking. Hope we all break free.
It indeed sucked.
Yea ugh purity culture did so much harm 😢
That "joke" about Clay being exactly as controlling as Amber's ex, just in slightly different ways seems like a REAL telling on itself moment! RUN Amber!!! Beating your wife is DEFINITELY old-fashioned!!
No it's cool because he'll only break her hand if she wears the wrong color of nail polish
Exactly!
This is kind of exactly why i feel like this movie does EXACTLY what it sets out to do without truly realizing it? Clay refuses to work on himself and shapes his decided love interest (who is in an incredibly vulnerable situation) so that she follows his rules and must meet all his needs, without any level of regard for her, as he feels his way is best and nonnegotiable. That sounds like a very accurate reminder of the past!
i don't mind people having boundaries, but as a history hobbyist i wanna point out that 99.9% of people in The Olden Days would think clay's pov was bonkers. like even in rural ohio, 1800s christian men would be *appalled*. "you're making a woman stand outside in the cold while fixing her stuff because YOU don't wanna be 'indecent'? that's the most indecent thing you can do!'
like i honestly don't mind if men and women don't want to hold hands or hug outside of marriage for religious reasons--i don't understand it myself but it's fairly harmless. but refusing to enter the same apartment as her because they aren't married is absolutely asinine. only people as fundamental as him think he's being reasonable 😭
Even In my southern Italy small town people would be put off
Like why couldn't he just bring another person so she didn't have to wait out in the cold
If you told me you were basically afraid to be alone in a room with me, I’d definitely assume you had zero self control and were an active threat.
Fr, like a dog can't be left alone with food. You're an entire person and she isn't a pork chop 😭
'I am learning to control myself. The only thing needed for this is my strong mind...and that no woman exists in a 10 mile radius around me so I don't get tempted. Easy!'
The cognitive dissonance is so real, smh
I also love how they make it out as if...he would just rape any woman he is alone with in private. Like...dude. Really?
I feel like there's something actually super realistic about a woman leaving an abusive relationship and immediately pursuing psychological safety in a "safe" man. He's like the ideological opposite of her ex, and that means he's perfect to her, but she never actually had a period of healing afterwards.
This is why I went straight into therapy after I left my abusive “Christian” marriage. I was afraid of this exact thing. I didn’t know how I ended up in an abusive marriage, but I was sure as fuck gonna figure it out.
YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP, ouch
Aaaand that's how you end up jumping into an abusive relationship after an abusive relationship. Been there.
@@anntares172yeah. I grew up in a neglectful abusive family. Refused anything but friends with benefits.. until u was 24, a drug addict ih heroi. And i neet a "safe" guy. He never hit me. But instead was a child. A frickin lying manipulative covert narcissist who never apologized or was ever wrong and we had a great time the first 5 years. And slowly he made me his mommy. He made me feel like i was empty without his love. I grew to hate him. 18 years i wasted.
I left and refuse t🎉o bother with a relationship ever again. Tried it. Didnt luke it. Luckily i stuck to my gubs about kids. I never wanted them. Byr ge really tried to guilt me into it. I was telling him go find someone that wants them if you want them so bad. Lol that was the end. He got cirrhosis of the liver from his drug and drinking in his teens and 20s and so i had to stay an extra 3 years cause when he healed from that enough he got c-dif at the hospital.that took forever to heal. But then i left vegas and am happyish now
I hope you all have found your happyish
The lesson here is that abusive behavior is not, in fact, limited to any particular ideological group.
Willie's totally right how this is just as or more dangerous than 50 shades - at least that one is depicted as "wooo spooky sexy dark f'd up" and this one's like "so holy and safe and righteous". Also, toxic/abusive people BENEFIT from people who are more obviously toxic/abusive. Like, "look i didn't do physical violence, i'm great!" even though they're a walking red flag
this movie seems so close to calling bullshit on itself.
• Amber likens her abusive ex’s “no nail polish rule” to one of Clay’s many rules
• Clay can’t even give her the comfort of “no, I’d never do anything _that”_ without undercutting it massively with a (?)joke
• Amber says her ex didn’t mean to break her hand
…as if the movie _understands_ that abusive partners often don’t _intend_ to be violent, that’s how they lash out when they can’t control their partner as much as they feel entitled to! Like Willie points out, we never see what happens when Amber refuses one of Clay’s rules. But somehow, “this situation is a time bomb” is not the point the film’s trying to make??
@@dackattacnonono see it's toooootally different because he's Good and her ex is Bad, so nothing can _possibly_ go wrong this time 💀
She has a dreamcatcher AND a cat? And she drives until she runs out of gas? Quirky. So how does she get to the apartment viewing and meet her floppy-haired future beloved?
Maybe she didn't literally drive until her car stopped due to being out of gas, she just stopped to fill up when it was almost empty, and then moved into the town where the car's needle started to hit "E"?
(Or I guess she could have walked to a gas station and taken a gas can back to the car, filling it enough to get her to the apartment?)
As someone who sleeps with both a dreamcatcher and a cat, I feel personally attacked. 🐈⬛
Dating doesn't have to be debauched or even involve sex at all if its not what people want. Sex isnt inherently bad either, and I think that message is very problematic. This could easily be a horror movie with the right score .. I don't really know what he thinks is going to happen if he's just alone with a woman, he's both creepy and boring all at once.
As usual, with Christian movies, it’s about virtue signaling. He’s trying to show off how “safe” he is. But of course it’s the opposite because in order to do that he has to ignore her needs and preferences and control their entire relationship.
Yeah before I became aware of Christian fundamentalism's take on it, I just thought "dating" was either an adjective ("those two are dating" = those two are in a relationship), or just any situation where two (or more) people go out of their way to spend time together, because they have romantic intentions? You don't have to have sex or even kiss while dating, that's all optional, this was always allowed
This “theory” 🙄 is known as the Billy Graham rule. Billy Graham famously refused to be alone in any space (including an elevator or a car) with a woman who wasn’t his wife. Other well known men such as pastors and politicians (cough Mike Pence cough) have since adopted this “rule.”
Growing up in the 90s/00s evangelical church, I knew teenage boys who adopted this “rule” because it was cool and holier than thou. To me it was a huge red flag 🚩
nothing says "I can control myself" like a moratorium on being alone with women!
These people really don’t care that they are inconveniencing every single woman around them💀 like imagine having to wait for the next elevator every single day cause this guy can’t share his space with you, bestie get a grip
I was dogsitting once, a pair of mormons came to the door to do their thing. It was a complete shock to me at the time, since he'd never had aggressive mannerisms before, but the dog I was watching wriggled his way out of his collar, ran out and bit one of the men. I was of course equal parts mortified and terrified. I immediately put the dog in the backyard and asked him to come inside so we could disinfect it ASAP (it didn't break the skin but I still wanted to clean and bandage it properly) and he refused, explaining that he couldn't be alone in the house with me. Even with his buddy right there as a "witness". Even though he had just been bit by a strange dog. Even though I was desperately wanting to do everything in my power to help.
I ended up running to the bathroom and carrying a thing of disinfectant, a cotton swap, and a bandaid to the front door (home did not have a porch) and having to basically juggle all that stuff right there. And he still wouldn't let me do it, because idk maybe hand holding isn't allowed either, I ended up just handing them to him while I called up the homeowner.
I make it a point not to put down other people's beliefs just for being different, but that one really seemed to me to be awfully difficult to uphold in an emergency.
@@tiacat11 how inconvenient and frustrating for everyone involved! You were trying to do the right thing and treat his wound. But I guess there's a chance you might try to seduce him? 🙄 Cuz apparently women just try to seduce everyone all day long and men possess not even an ounce of self control (or so these religious types would have you believe).
@@tiacat11did you invite the companion in too? Because Mormon missionaries actually aren’t allowed to be apart from their companions at all, except in the bathroom.
I CANNOT believe you're covering this movie! My Dad is OBSESSED with it. He and my step-mom even went to the facebook fan-page meet-up held where it was filmed and met a bunch of the actors. My dad says it got him through his divorce with my mom
o_o wow
…
I love this comment, there are so many layers here
@@tessapowell3156 Like an onion
@@emisformakerlike Shrek.
I'm an ex-mormon but I was a mormon missionary and there was a rule where we weren't allowed to be alone with a woman ever. I lived this man's life for 2 years. I'm in therapy.
Hi Willie, would you be interested in some of the cringe mormon videos? There is an endless supply and they deserve the criticism.
*support hugs, if thats somethin you consent to*
I managed to escape the whole missionary thing as a disabled person, but havin known so many men who when through it, and havin been the woman home alone who wanted desperately to let them use the bathroom, and rest thier feet while they had a drink of water or a bite to eat, it broke my heart to watch them sip thier glasses in the cold or the boilin heat all because of the bullshit rules the church held.
Yall truely deserved better.
Im glad you made it out, and I hope therapy goes well and that you are able to fully heal and make a life that is peaceful and fulfillin 🦋
Please, Willie, accept this offer and treat us yer look at the absolute bafoonary that is Mormon media!
It's been too long since ive been exposed and I need a reminder so I have somethin new to bring ta my therapist 😂
Omg we fed the missionaries one time when my dad was out of town and they had to eat on the back porch, but at least the weather was nice and they had a table and chairs and all 😅 we had no idea it was a rule because no one had ever mentioned it. (Also exmo)
So many guys cast themselves in the movies they wrote and directed where they play a perfect character. They all want to be Neil Breen, but they can never be Breen
Red Letter Media calls them black tank top movies. Not only are there quite a few written/directed/starred, but in many they wear a black tank top lol!
Yes, and it’s particularly gross that they often use casting as an opportunity to meet a lot of hot actresses. I’ve even seen casting notices say things like: “no acting experience necessary as long as you have the right look.” Makes me want to vomit. 🤮
Nobody's Breen as good as ol' reliable, Neil.
Don’t forget Donald James Parker aka “Gramps”.😂
@@donnamurphy8551that was the anti evolution movie right?
Cinema Snob reviewed this years ago and it really stuck with me. He overlayed scary music to show how this could easily be a horror movie and its just so true of these messagey movies
Oh my gosh, I was waiting on someone to mention Brad here! yeah, this movie is really creepy enough to be a horror flick.
Also can we talk about how this attitude toward women that you can't EVER BE ALONE with one is inherently patriarchal and holds women back in educational and occupational environments. I went to Bible college and there was a clear difference between how the men were treated and the women because the male professors were perfectly comfortable providing mentorship for male students but female students were held at arm's length and treated like there was no path toward a serious career that wasn't music or teaching children and other women. I did have a male professor tell me that our "teaching" class for women was basically the exact same course as the "preaching" class for men and I was also told I was just as good as anybody in his "preaching" class for men, but there was no path for me to actually use that skill if I didn't want to be a "women's teacher" and preach exclusively at like women's conferences and shit. I'm not really part of the religion anymore and I'm unpacking how much Christian sexism impacted me throughout my life.
TL;DR Christian sexism isn't fun or innocent or romantic and I hate this movie
SAME
Another matriculant of PCC, perchance? 'Cause we weren't allowed to be alone with the opposite sex in a room. Men and women were not allowed physical contact AT ALL, including indirectly, like holding a hymnal together. Not allowed.
So glad I deconstructed.
@@olgs37 thankfully I dodged that bullet, my mom wanted me to go there but I told her there was no way I was going to a college that was gonna make me wear pantyhose to class, my school was slightly (ONLY SLIGHTLY) less conservative
him refusing to not come in was actually a thinly veiled confessional kink
I mean that *does* line up with Vampire rules. This weirdo mf is just budget Edward Cullen, SMH 🦇
"Forgive me, tenant, for I have sinned."
"What is this sin, my landlord?"
"I had impure thoughts about… uh… oops I forgot a pie in the oven-"
I forgot the premise of the movie already and honestly thought he was trying to really obviously telegraph that he's a vampire.
@@catelynh1020hahaha that was my first thought too. Haha vampire! Wait are Christian’s vampires? They do drink blood.
@@catelynh1020 Honestly, that would unironically be a better premise
This isn't the first time I've heard about some Christian men refusing to be alone with a woman, but the first time it drove home how annoying it would truly be. Like it's one thing to not invite a woman over it insist on driving somewhere separately, but throwing her out in the cold while he's her landlord fixing stuff? That's just nonsense
Right? As a Christian, I totally agree.
Well if he's in the same room as her, what's to stop them from fornicating? LITERALLY NOTHING. Not his religion, or her consent, or his self control (possibly doesn't exist?) or the fact that they don't know each other...
It's not romantic to be so afraid of thought crimes and your own attraction that you're incapable of ENTERING A ROOM WITH A WOMAN IN IT
Or even worse, that you don’t trust yourself to not s3xually @ssult someone
Its creepy. It is creepy and it sounds like he cant trust himself around a woman alone.
Sounds criminal
I’m so excited for your review! 🎉
I played Trish in the movie 😅
OMG i just gasped 💕💕💕
Oh, how awesome. I think if you showed up in the chat on the day of the video, everyone would go crazy lol
@@josetheseeker I hope I can 😂 I’ve got my notification on!
Omg! And I thought this couldn't get any better!
Sooo... Whadya think? :)
I'm asexual and I'm also having trouble wrapping my head around this whole forced celibacy thing 😅
Same! I can’t imagine that it’s difficult to just… not have sex
@@RikkiLove0317I don’t think you’re actually “same!” with what they said. They were almost making the opposite point as you.
@@joearnold6881 I thought they were saying “forced celibacy” is hard to understand because not wanting sex is natural for them, not something they have to force themself to do
I'll admit I was originally a bit charmed by the "I promised I would never be alone in a room with a woman that's not my wife," because I assumed it was a promise that he made to...y'know...his wife? And like maybe she died and he was like still trying to honor his love for her in a sort of weird but harmless(?) way that he could move past with some good old fashioned character development.
But yeah, then I realized he made the promise to himself and welp.
Honestly the phrasing super implies that. Like especially cuz he doesn't say "I promised myself" or "I made myself a promise" or he could of said "unless the woman is my wife" or something it's just really weird & totally stuck out to me as well.
Me, currently teaching myself clown skills and considering taking aerial lyra classes: “h-how did he know??”
😂
Statistically, someone had to be
I don't even think there was a time in "recent" history (like, post-1800s) when men and women could never be alone together unless they were married? Chaperones were a thing when young people were courting, but there were still times when an unmarried woman and man might be alone together (a nearly-empty train car, a doctor's appointment, some instance where she might need to meet with a lawyer or detective; female passengers and male chauffeurs/carriage drivers... there's probably others, idk*).
Clay isn't being "old-fashioned," or "chivalrous," he's thinking of a time that didn't really exist (at least, not since women started being allowed to exist in public and participate in public life... Does he object to that?).
Also yeah, "I can't be alone with any woman who's not my wife" is deeply sexist (what if an employer or supervisor said that? He wouldn't be able to meet with female employees in his office for performance reviews or disciplinary issues... It would end up creating a workplace inherently less open to women than men, and be discriminatory). It also sounds like something a sexual predator would say.
(*Also literally cases of female professionals, who did exist back then and since medieval times, meeting with male clients. Female portrait-painters alone with male portrait subjects, etc. That's been a thing since the Renaissance.)
The way that Clay has vowed to never be alone in a room with a woman who’s not his wife is deeply worrying to me, and it makes me wonder how old he was when he took this vow and what happened to his family. Did he suddenly move into a garden shed so as not to be forced to be in close proximity to his mother? Is he the sort of man who deems it necessary to wear a chastity belt to guard his virtue? Is the vow meant to protect women from him or to protect him from the women he’s totally sure will throw themselves at him otherwise?
I think the story would have been improved if he held the beliefs and lived the life of a self-flagellating medieval monk. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a romance story with someone like that as the love interest. It could be some kind of “don’t judge a book by its cover” thing, alongside a typical “break the stuffy, boring person out of their shell” plot.
oooh that actually sounds pretty good
Pretty sure his mother doesn't count as a woman in his mind 🙄
I haven’t seen the movie, just some reviews. Does he spend time alone with his aunt? Maybe he makes an exception for family.
10:34 That was super gross and no way to run a business. So if he's a shopkeeper and there's only the one customer who happens to be a woman he's going to leave his store unattended?
i imagine it’s way worse and he just discriminates against women shopping on their own, he probably imposes a rule that women must be chaperoned while in his store
I think that means women are allowed to steal whatever they want cause he won't be able to follow them
The excitement I felt clicking this, and the subsequent pain of realizing it's not released yet! 😂
ITS OUT NOW!
@@prettyflyforacompsci7725 woohoo!!! Thank you!
Yeah, when it first appeared in my feed, my heart sank too 💔
@@cassettetape7643 We need Willie to review every one of these movies! 😂
Clay says that who we are when we're single is who will be when we're married, but he says it while refusing to be alone with a woman, with a screen door on the other side. How does he expect to be different with a woman when he's married, if this is his theory
Right? Like, does he believe those habits vanish instantly?
@@cashwalk7253 God. Or something.
@@ArrowOnionbelly I’m a Christian and even I know that’s not how it works 🤣
Clay's friend talking about how he ended up married because there was never a good time to break up with her is the most "are the straights okay" thing I've heard all day.
Also, here to tell you, not having sex before you marry someone does not lead anywhere good.
Also also, "50% of marriages end in infidelity"? Citation needed please.
Great job, Willie, keep 'em coming. You are a funny and handsome knitting witch man. 👍
Infidelity is incredibly common, and it has everything to do with the unrealistic expectations we are taught to have of romantic partners. If you have any interest at all in history / sociology / anthropology, the book Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State by Engels is a fascinating read that can be found for free online. There are even audiobook versions on UA-cam.
@@justinwatson1510 Oh wow, thanks! The numbers are higher than I would’ve thought (and of course vary from survey to survey), and on a rewatch, he doesn’t say “*end* in infidelity”, he just says, “involve infidelity”, so I stand corrected on that.
@@Ticket2theMoon for the record, I agree that the straights definitely are not ok, and I also agree that not having sex before marriage is a stupid decision that will, in all likelihood, not lead to good outcomes for either party. My knee-jerk reaction is to blame Christianity because that is what was most directly responsible for most of the shit I had to unlearn, but Christianity didn't come to exist in a vacuum and was just kind of formalizing traditions that were already deeply ingrained in the society of the time. That's why I tell everyone to read that book by Engels; well, that and the hope that reading Engels will lead them to become curious about reading Marx. Lol
My god I was dying laughing during that speech because it kept getting more and more absurd 😂
i may be wrong here but there might also be a conflation of terms going on. around 50% of marriages end in divorce and i feel like he might be considering divorce to be a type of infidelity...
Really great video as always. My thoughts on the use of "theory" in the movie: evangelicals tend to purposefully misuse the term to undermine the scientific uses, especially as it relates to evolution.
Ooo the math is mathing with this one. Thank you for commenting this; i learned something from it.
This movie sounds like it would have been so much better if it was just about Amber. Like instead when she moves in the apartment she notices a stray cat and starts feeding them. There can be a theme about heeling and learning to trust again. Yes I’m saying we should replace the love story with a different one with the cat. The love between humans and animals can be really sweet and wholesome and I would much rather watch that than a movie pushing toxic ideas about romance.
If someone said "I'm not allowed to be alone in a room with a woman who isn't my wife" I'd immediately go "What the hell is wrong with his wife, I hope he gets out of that situation :
27:49 All I hear is a predator trying to convince his prey he's safe. It reminds me of religious groomers
Ouch yikes…
Not good
Why was that orange peel analogy so fire though?
The behaviour in this movie kind of exemplifies the idea that there are no good or bad actions, only good or bad people. Like a good person can't do a bad action because they're good: they're godly, they're chaste, they're whatever. Their actions are justified by their inherent goodness.
Chilling.
This is also the mentality of the wealthy. Think on those implications...
Boom. This exactly.
@@emilyrln Great Emilys think alike
@@emisformakerYes, we do!
It’s usually the moment when you’re fully convinced of your own holiness that the Devil shows up. (or you decide to invade Iraq) Yes I’m rereading the memoir and confessions of a justified sinner by James Hogg.
...cabin in the woods, case of bottled water and no distractions...yeah, I'm definitely getting the vibes that the 'lifelong bride' has been kidnapped by a guy living off the grid
I think that you can 100% do a romance without sex, and that’s proven by how many teen romances stand the test of time and are super enjoyable! Hell, you can even have Christian values in a romance and it be enjoyable by non-Christian audiences (I love The Last Song and A Walk to Remember). But what doesn’t work is shoehorning a “romance” into a gross display of someone’s deep seated Christian-flavored misogyny. The main character’s backstory being about escaping an abuser just to have the next loser make a joke about also abusing her is so so so gross. This movie sucked. Love you, Willie, thanks for sharing!! 😂
Hey Willie this is a comment. I grew up in that culture and was taught the whole don't kiss before marriage, never be alone, and a bunch of other rules like that... It sucks and is toxic, i agree i don't want to kink shame but when that kink was forced on me as early as 10, well, I at least think you are fine here haha.
Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? This is the kind of kink that the practitioners want everyone else to practice too!
This nonsense can extend to family members. I knew an elderly man who wouldn’t accept a ride from his daughter in law because it wouldn’t be appropriate to be alone with her.
Ew but also glad she dodged that bullet
D: .........that is horrifying.
38:19 Yeah, that sounds about right. Without help people do tend to go from one abusive relationship to another. While this guy might not break her hand he would break her spirit. He's the type to subtly put her down because things aren't the exact way he wants them.
Please never get rid of the knitting, I like watching the progress while listening 🙏
How does he knit if he can’t see what he’s knitting?
Just wanna know..
@@alexv3372 Probably muscle memory and remembering the pattern
Well goddam that must be some good muscle memory cause he’s doing it pretty well
Also yes this could be a horror movie but also a fanfic
The intro reminded me of that one time when my best friend sent me an enamel pin and the post office notified me that they tried to deliver a package but i wasn't there so i had to go pick it up. I didnt know what the package was for and only that it came from an address in Russia. So i had a panic attack creating a story in my head aboit how it could be a nefarious rando across the globe trying to plant dangerous goods on me. I told the post office to discard it and left shaking and nearly crying. I texted my bestie about it and she explained that it was a birthday gift. It was a pin of that dog in the burning room saying, "Everything is fine." So I returned to the post office later and sheepishly asked them to actually let me sign for the package. ...anxiety is a wild ride
the irony of that being the thing waiting for you.. chef's kiss
My first boyfriend and I used premarital counseling workbooks after only a couple months of dating, maybe less. He became my abusive ex-husband. Yay evangelical purity culture?
Sis, I am there with you. It was a foregone conclusion that we were “dating for marriage” pretty much from day one. So I ignored every red flag and opportunity (and very clear sign that I should) to escape, married him, and stayed with him for 14 years. It’s wild to think back on those early days now and the attitudes that kept me in it when it seems so obvious now that I should have gotten out.
@@Ticket2theMoonI'm so glad you got out! Looking back, I feel like we were groomed to be handed off to the first man our parents approved of. All the messages we were receiving from home and the church were warning us that once a "suitable" man wanted us, we should be the most docile, forgiving, submissive souls possible. Life is so much better outside of that mess.
@@JenniSeven7 I always say my ex was able to groom me so easily because the church groomed me first. 🤷♀️
Oh god I skipped the sponsor segment and landed on a serious pause followed by "trust me - they're coming" and now I feel severely cursed
It was a warning about flying clowns
The first three minutes are absolute gold leading into the ad read with a long and rambling hypothetical situation 😂 highly recommend!
Ugh, this movie is basically ‘But what if Magical Thinking worked, though?!’ And I hate it. But you treated it with a blend of ridicule and compassion that made it bearable. And now more about some toxic beliefs that encounter in my life. So it’s a win in the end?
I was horrified during that dudes monologue where he clearly didnt stay with his wife because he loved her...he stayed because he never found a convenient time to dump her and just settled 😧
I'm used to seeing some weird and off-putting stuff in Christian movies, but my jaw straight up hit the floor during the conversation about the nail polish. It was a one-two punch because BOTH of them said screwed up things. "That sounds like something you'd come up with, haha!" GIRL, WHY-
What a wild movie. The incongruity between the guy's beliefs and his actions and the fact that no one gets to question them at any point tells me that there was exactly one writer and he took no notes.
i feel like these christian protags wind up surrounded by odd soulless characters bc their writers have an obsession with using tragic, gritty downsides of life as cautionary tales but making them the result of not doing christian enough things, which removes 80% of character reasoning or building. as a result creepy catcall guy isn't tragic, he's just doing it unchristian and getting an unchristian outcome so we don't need to know anything else
Nuthin' screams "romance" like a case of water and an undisclosed location in the woods.
No-one will be able to hear the screams of "romance", anyway.
My mum is staunchly against sex before marriage. It was hard for her to hide her disappointment when I ended up pregnant before marriage. I was 20 weeks pregnant walking down the isle. (and for those curious, NO it was not a shotgun wedding. We got engaged first...then got preggo.)
Mum asked me why I was so insistent on sex before marriage and I laughed. "Mum, would you buy a car without looking under the hood or giving it a test drive? Would you buy a house without testing that the plumbing worked right and the electricity connected? Without an inspection? Would you buy a life long subscription to a single meal without tasting it first? NO. Of course you wouldn't so why would I walk into a marriage without making sure our plumbing worked, that it caused sparks, that our outlets were compatible, and we both liked that single flavor enough to live with it for the rest of our lives? That would be the ultimate foolishness. So yah, we gave it a test drive first...ok, several test...daily test drives first!"
You hit the nail on the head, “reformed serial killer vibe.” The man made that vow, but he is perfectly fine with leering at her through the screen door. Ick!
Oh, and, yeah, “what we do when we are single is what we do when we are married.” Indeed. You see a woman as an object when you are single, you will see your wife as an object when you are married. God forbid you develop an interest in a person by dating them and continue to date when you are married.🙄😂…been married for 16 years. My husband and I do still do the things with each other that we did when we were single. We talk to each other, we listen, we spend time together and alone. We have children, so we also spend time as a family…we go out. We have sex. We do projects together. We share our dreams about the future. We love and support each other. So, yeah, basically all the stuff we did when we were single, except that now we only have one house payment instead of two and we file our taxes together.
Please please pleeeeaaaase 🙏🙏🙏 don't ever stop knitting!!!!!!
It's therapeutic & inspiring & one of my favorite parts of your show 😥🥺😢
Agreed!!
This ^^^
Working on my own crochet while watching Willie’s videos is one of my favorite things. 😊
I really didn't like the tone of "depends on the colour". I bet he'd have a meltdown if she turned up with "Jezebel red" on her nails.
that is 100% what would happen yes
I was drawn by the knitting- it worked.
Me too
There were some twists in this movie that were straight up jaw dropping. I don't know how a functioning person in society could write those and think its okay
This man's ideal honeymoon fratures a case of bottled water and I think that's the weirdest part
He thinks they’re gonna have so much nonstop sex they’ll need to chug water to rehydrate.
Not gonna lie, some of clay’s ideal honeymoon low key sounds like he’s plotting his future wife’s demise 0A0
And no food!! 🤨
…
Wait, what if he's a cannibal?
Part of me was expecting him to continue with "and some rope, a shovel, and a bag of lime."
This movie would’ve been so much better if it was intentionally horror
Is it possible Clay confused “theory” with “theology”? Maybe he was trying to avoid the religious connotations of the word theology and thought theory was the secular equivalent?? That’s the only thing I can think of
gonna be fully honest, if I met someone who said they'd made a vow never to be alone with a woman who wasn't their wife, my first thought wouldn't be "this person is single and very religious", it would be "damn your Domme sounds intense"
Funny part about this is that old timey dating scene was pretty wild too. Girls and guys could have as many dates with however many people they wanted and it was assumed there'd be no sex so parents actively encouraged it and when you knew you liked someone more than others you'd "go steady" and then you'd consider marriage. Unless he's thinking back to biblical times where girls were sold in exchange for live stock then these are the old fashioned times he's thinking of and his stupid theory would've seemed even more ridiculous back then.
Well yeah these weirdo conservatives always love pining for a past which simply didn't exist.
I like that you knit in your videos. It makes it feel cozy.
Same! Willie knitting is what pulled me into the channel to start. His humor keeps me here ❤
How old is the main guy SUPPOSED to be? Was the porn stuff from college days, and was THAT 9 years ago? Because if so they're trying to tell me that this man is like...round'about 30-35?! Somehow I feel like this is more egregious than the 26 year old teenager trope. Especially between him and the antique guy with the gray roots and half his hair dyed.
Also love watching Willie try to pose for the thumbnail at the end, every time. It reminds me of myself trying to take a selfie, or even figure out how to pose a drawing.
it's probably been said, but i still think it's insane that this guy refuses to be alone in a room with anyone who isn't his wife. dude, you own a fucking store. unless you have employees (which raises a whole other issue in terms of potentially not hiring women, which would be textbook gender discrimination), you're going to have to be alone with women sometimes!
also "why is that weird effeminite witch man knitting when it's about a christian movie?" is such a thing to worry about, and frankly i relate to thinking that way a little too much
The notion that the entire relationship doesn't change when they have sex is so wrong-headed. Whether they call it dating or not, courtship playacting exists. They can stay on their best behavior until the deal is sealed, only showing their true colors when it's going to be hard for an abused partner to disentangle themself. And besides that, how is a man refusing to be alone with a woman who is not his wife ANY kind of guarantee that he can be trusted to be good to her when there's nobody watching?
"A lot of the boundaries we've thrown away were there to protect us..." he can't help but put the blame on her for being abused. if only you didn't date some strange man and lust over a relationship then you wouldn't have put yourself in that situation. so gross
39:59 im sorry but im going crazy: "protect us" from what??? This is literally some "am not allowed near schools" speach. The fact they wrote this as a "healthy balanced christian man" having his moment thing is beyond me
Everything about clay makes me uncomfortable, but i guess old fashioned men didnt have much self awareness so that makes sense at least
Movies like this are the reason people tell you to wait a year before dating after leaving a narcissist.
*head itches once* "I hope I don't have lice..." #relatable
As a long time knitter and fiber artist myself, seeing you knit and finding your videos were "knitting time with Willie" was a huge reason for me to keep coming back to your content. It's akin to crafting with a friend while gossiping about something crazy that happened. Please keep it up, it makes me smile!
I thought this was a movie with a male lead in his 20s, so seeing the actor was a jolt of surprise.
I usually skip ad reads, but you got me and I'm glad you did
It was truly incredible 😂
I can't wait! I'm dying to know what the Christian version of 50 Shades is. Whipping in the name of Jesus?
It's a bondage of mind and spirit. I survived such a torture.
The Passion of the Christ
“ aw man I can’t wait to watch a video about an obscure film “
“My grandmother got kidnapped and sent to Michigan because she found out the truth about cough drops. Also I’m afraid of flying clowns”
Good humor . I shall subscriber
“Dating doesnt train us to be good life partners, it just trains us to be good dates.”
I- I just- What?
Isnt marriage just dating someone for the rest of your lives (ideally, I guess). Does this dude actually not go out on dates with his wife, romance her, do literally anything with her?
This guy definitely put a ring on his wife’s finger, sat down in his recliner, and asked her to bring him a beer.
the last thing people like this are interested in is actual, legitimate romance. it's all about piety and playing roles
Ooofff this movie sounds really hard to watch. I feel it’s going to be used by horrible ‘Christian’ men to justify misguided arguments. Thank you for your analysis!
thankfully this film is VERY unlikely to reach anyone who doesn't already think this way anyway. more than anything else it's a glimpse into the reality that a whole lot of christians are just in cults
"what's your deal stress boy" has the same energy as "wouldnt YOU like to know, weather BOY"
If you tell me you can't be in a room with a woman that's not your wife I'm gonna assume you can't trust yourself and you're going to assault or hit on me. That's so incredibly toxic.
I always forget that these behaviors are weird and abnormal to people outside of the belief system… I was raised evangelical and it was fairly common for a man and a woman to not be alone together. It still feels weird to be alone in a room with a guy and I’ve been out of the religion since 2019/20
I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and we had those rules too. I remember when I was still a part of it that a couple couldn’t be alone together without a chauffeur
For a second I thought this was gonna be a review of that book that is 50 Shades from the perspective of CHRISTIAN Gray
I also get super anxious about random phone calls! I dunno why but it just freaks me out like I somehow just assume it's something bad.
Imagine being a landlord and you won't go in the house you're showing to a female tenant. If I was that woman I would be like "Uhhhh is there a gas leak or something? Think I will keep looking..."
ALSO isn't it so telling how so many of these Christian movies involve a "traditional man" who wants a "traditional marriage" but ALWAYS has to convince a "modern" woman to become traditional for him. I think there is an element of power fantasy to it for religious men that they can "tame" a non-traditional woman into their perfect traditional wife who is now stuck at home and dependent on them. They don't really want a woman who is already traditional, they want the satisfaction of trapping a wild, non-traditional woman so they can have her to themselves. All these movies do it. On the flip side, movies with women as the main character often involve her accepting the man who is ALREADY traditional.
Well, I'm bi. So I guess EVERYBODY CLEAR THE ROOM! I CAN'T BE IN HERE WITH ANY OF YOU!
If a guy told me that he'd promised to never be in a room alone with a woman he isn't married to, I'd make extra sure that *I am* never alone with him in a room, because I'd be afraid of what he thinks he'd do if he ever were alone with a woman.
Also, now that I think about it, I'm wondering how far these fundies want to go with this purity crap. At which point do they just go back to the parents picking husbands or wives for their children and force-marry them because talking to someone of the opposite sex before marriage is just too much. With this premise of "never in a room alone with a woman" and "not dating", how would that even work, realistically? For the majority of people, they do not live close to each other or have reason to meet and possibly talk to each other on a regular basis, beyond at the workplace, maybe. Are you supposed to just ask someone you find attractive to marry you because you saw them a few times in the grocery store or something? They obviously had to construct a pretty special situation to make it plausible for the two protagonist to even have any reason to speak with each other.
they would LOVE to go back to parents picking spouses for their children and frankly if left unopposed i don't think it would take long to get there. honestly there are probably at least some small communities where it still happens
@@MalkuthSephira That's true, and very, very depressing to think about.
It's kind of fun that "clay" is ALMOST a portmanteau of christian gray.
The title of this is absolutely chilling!
Thank you for thanking me again.
But that's just a theory... A CLAY Theory! Thanks for watching!
Couldn’t get comments or live chat to work during the premier. Just wanted to say the story for the ad was way too relatable and I wasn’t expecting to be personally called out like that
Man, this film's a rough one. Thanks for toughing it out, Willie.
Btw, your knitting is what got me to subscribe. That and your personality are unique among the sea of reviewers out there, so that got me to stay.
Stars of Christian Movies and Directors of Christian Movies. Name a more iconic single.
The Venn Diagram is a circle
Having just moved to Ohio last spring I drove over that exact same bridge at 8:15 from WV, on US-33 near Ravenswood, into OH wherein I also screamed at the top of my lungs while pumping my fist with my cat in the backseat of the car. But my cat was buckled into his triple-wide carrier in my car’s backseat and I didn’t have a dream catcher on the rearview mirror so I imagine Willie would be a lot more approving of how I conducted myself.
Actually Willie, 10:22 is basically the signal every cute dirty blonde Ohio boy gives to indicate their interest in you. It is a warning for you to be aware they are extra kinky in bed. At least this is what I’m told.
OMG, I didn’t know Ma Ginger from LVT’s Dogville had a cameo in this movie. She’s even attending to her famous Gooseberry bushes at 16:49! Lauren Bacall’s looking a little worse for the wear though. The Ohio winters will do that to you.
18:40 Oh. So this IS basically Dogville and Clay is playing the part of Tom only with ‘theories’ instead of ‘illustrations’. Got it.
The way I cringed fearing a BetterHelp spot when you said, "And speaking of in need of serious therapy"
Wandered in from Drawfee and I'm now binge watching your oevre!
The genuine little laugh when you were asking why you knit on the show was so wholesome 😊