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@Andy-fd7zh Truth hurts. Try it without kneepad and compare. The company that named the kneepad "downgrader" is on point. "Adam Ondra (article) : Modern kneepads are so good that they are not only comfortable to climb with and you do not bruise your skin - which means knee-baring has never been that much fun. But you can also do kneebars where it was impossible before. That might make some climbs significantly easier. It is sad even for me to sometimes see that a certain classic climb can be climbed in a different way with the use of a kneepad, often making it a worse and less homogenous route. But it is something we must accept. Even for me, it was not easy to see Stefano Ghisolfi in Change, using the kneepads in places where it was not possible for me without kneepads. There are some really historical routes like Hubble, world’s first 8c+ or 9a where the use of a kneepad might be seen as questionable, because Ben Moon in 1990 did not know about this technology. And it might be fair to say that the only ascents that count should be done in the same style as Ben’s"
Words of wisdom! Adam speaks with such knowledge and clarity on issues for which everyone else seems to be offering opinions, with little of substance to back them up.
Yea… if Adam Ondra gets knocked for using knee pads, then all of crack climbing shouldn’t be done with crack gloves or tape… those climbing daily people are always trying to call someone else “the worlds best climber,” like they did to Bosi. Will Bosi immediately said right back to them, “uh, I’m pretty sure Adam Ondra is the world’s best climber.”
I’d be curious to hear his opinion on Soudain Seul and the usage of books under the knee pad in order to extend the knee bar range… I feel like that’s where it reeeeally startes to get squirrelly… Aid or not?
yeah, see my dialogue with @Phoenixhunter157 ... the MOMENT you artificially and significantly change your anatomical/physiological natural attributes during an ascent? Game over.
Would that fall under the category of aid? No, not in my old school understanding - aid climbing is where gear is placed in/on the rock, and that gear is weighted in order to make progress. Was it kosher? Again, in my old school opinion, no... squirrelly as an oak tree in October! WAIT!?!? Was it a copy of John Long's "Big Walls"?
I haven't heard the analogy to crack climbing gloves. Personally I think its fine to take advantage of modern techniques and regrade old routes. I mean we can go even further and say that the first climbers and alpinists used the most primitive climbing shoes. Our equipment is going to evolve over time, projects get easier, and it enables us to try harder routes.
So you're going to go how far back in history, to re-grade everything? Downgrading, let's say, a 5.9+ put up in the 1970's, denigrates the masterful feat it was, back then.
I personally think everything should be graded for the current equipment available. The notes on the route should give details about the history/achievement of it. Climbing world is at its best when not egocentric.
Kneepads: We are talking about problems that 99% of us will never encounter and routes that 99% will never climb. The people who climb in that region and push the sport are the ones who should come to a consensus, which atm seems to be pro kneepad. I could imagine something like sandstone climbing, where certain area's ethnic doesn't allow them. For old/classic routes I'd say: Freeze the grades after 20 years (or whatever is reasonable), as new developments in shoes or other gear will happen in the future as well. For all non pros: If I climb my 6c with or without kneepads interests 2-3 people max, which at the end of the day just doens't matter at all...
I’m 62, climbed my first rock in ‘69. Lifelong pro outdoor performance athlete/coach. The technology I’ve seen across sports outside rock climbing are much greater in an ergonomic sense. Sure, the camming and belay devices nowadays really decrease the inherent fear from falling (i still have PTSD from hip/shoulder belays, rapping and falling in swami belts and trusting nylon nuts and hexes 🥹) yet tech directly influencing climbing performance is tiny compared to a carbon fiber, electronic shifting, disc brake racing bicycle. Skis, tennis rackets, plated running shoes! All are 100x more performance enhancing than, uh, a knee pad!? Why discriminate between rubber is ok for feet but not knees? As long as it’s not altering your ape index or influencing an individual’s anatomical and physiological state, not sure where’s the controversy. I mean, maybe a whole new grading system for nude ascents? 🥴😂 Another great interview! 🙏🏾
Awesome point. So cool to think about the technological change in climbing vs other sports. Although there are other sports that might have seen even less change than climbing (strongman comes to mind).
@@Phoenixhunter157 "perfectly"?!??! THANK YOU! was just hoping not to sound like an old curmudgeon! I really do embrace where the sport matured given its explosion...having a 16 year old daughter however really helps me from not becoming bitter about our precious "old days"! really appreciate your kindness!
@@DreIsGoneFission THANK YOU for your kindness! Heard, honored about your "Strongman" point but that's an indoor "iron" (largely) sport which is somewhat (thankfully) immune to hi tech infiltration. head bowed and keep crushing!
Literally 30 years ago (and I've done very little climbing since, so I don't know what precisely is available on the market now), we would use the sort of neoprene sleeve knee braces you can buy at a drugstore, and sometimes glue a piece of resole shoe rubber onto it. There were tons of no-hands knee bar rests being used comfortably at the difficulty sport crags of the day, such as Rifle, CO, and I don't recall much ethical debate around it; in short, how is this still a thing lol?
There is no controversy here if you are a reasonable person (like ondra) Kneepads are a tool like shoes, chalk, tape and crack gloves. That someone didn't use them 20 years ago is beside the point.
this channel is like the Townes van Zandt of the climbing world. Best there is and no recognition. I love it! A real climber's channel. You're awesome :) ❤
Heard, honored! see my convo with @Phoenixhunter157 above. Putting up FA's in the 70's in places like Vedauwoo, South Platte, Clear Creek, Eldo, Lumpy? Crack of Fear? omg! fs we wore jeans and ilg even used my old hockey knee/shin pad to climb a route at Split Rocks in the 70's!
When I began my climbing journey, in 1980, it was regarded as bad form to use your knees. We didn't use crack gloves, but we did lightly tape our hands. But the use of knees was not up for debate.
fuck yes it is! it completely alters your anatomical configurations! It's no longer YOU that is climbing it but some artificially morphed configuration of "you"! c'mon young ones! get a clue!
I think shoes, tape, magnesia should be the only aid…. And the tape is for only protect Skin or avoid injury… all other Little helpers have to be mentioned…because they reduce the grade…But are ok…Outdoor-Climbing has no rules!
his excuse about getting used to it, saying its the same as wearing a tool makes no sense. Thats like saying having fingerstrenght is a tool. Getting your body ready for climbing isnt the same as wearing a tool
Want to have Jonathan Siegrist & Shaina Savoy as YOUR mentors? Starting June 1st, Jonathan, Shaina and ShayrdAir are teaming up to offer 30 lucky climbers the experience of a lifetime. This unique 3-month program is designed for all skill levels and includes a master class, Zoom courses, An in-person clinic in Colorado, plus a dream climbing trip to Ten Sleep. Score $300 off with code 'STRUGGLE' at ➡ thestruggleclimbingshow.com/shayrdairyoutube
Don't let the people who think kneepads are cheating find out about shoes.
😆
Or my trusty pair of pants that make a ton of easy kneebars way more comfy :D
i've been annoying my friends for years talking about how the next wave of hard sends will be barefoot
if you use kneepads, calculate one or two grades lower than without
@Andy-fd7zh Truth hurts. Try it without kneepad and compare. The company that named the kneepad "downgrader" is on point.
"Adam Ondra (article) :
Modern kneepads are so good that they are not only comfortable to climb with and you do not bruise your skin - which means knee-baring has never been that much fun. But you can also do kneebars where it was impossible before. That might make some climbs significantly easier.
It is sad even for me to sometimes see that a certain classic climb can be climbed in a different way with the use of a kneepad, often making it a worse and less homogenous route. But it is something we must accept. Even for me, it was not easy to see Stefano Ghisolfi in Change, using the kneepads in places where it was not possible for me without kneepads.
There are some really historical routes like Hubble, world’s first 8c+ or 9a where the use of a kneepad might be seen as questionable, because Ben Moon in 1990 did not know about this technology. And it might be fair to say that the only ascents that count should be done in the same style as Ben’s"
Words of wisdom! Adam speaks with such knowledge and clarity on issues for which everyone else seems to be offering opinions, with little of substance to back them up.
fr
Yea… if Adam Ondra gets knocked for using knee pads, then all of crack climbing shouldn’t be done with crack gloves or tape… those climbing daily people are always trying to call someone else “the worlds best climber,” like they did to Bosi. Will Bosi immediately said right back to them, “uh, I’m pretty sure Adam Ondra is the world’s best climber.”
I agree. It would be interesting if Bosi did 9C though.
@@HourRomanticist 9C or 9c? big difference
@@HourRomanticist yeah it would be super interesting if Bosi did the dawn wall, onsighted 9a, flashes 9a+, and flashed Jade
I’d be curious to hear his opinion on Soudain Seul and the usage of books under the knee pad in order to extend the knee bar range… I feel like that’s where it reeeeally startes to get squirrelly… Aid or not?
"are books aid" is a question we're not yet ready for
yeah, see my dialogue with @Phoenixhunter157 ... the MOMENT you artificially and significantly change your anatomical/physiological natural attributes during an ascent? Game over.
Would that fall under the category of aid?
No, not in my old school understanding - aid climbing is where gear is placed in/on the rock, and that gear is weighted in order to make progress.
Was it kosher? Again, in my old school opinion, no... squirrelly as an oak tree in October!
WAIT!?!? Was it a copy of John Long's "Big Walls"?
I haven't heard the analogy to crack climbing gloves. Personally I think its fine to take advantage of modern techniques and regrade old routes. I mean we can go even further and say that the first climbers and alpinists used the most primitive climbing shoes. Our equipment is going to evolve over time, projects get easier, and it enables us to try harder routes.
So you're going to go how far back in history, to re-grade everything? Downgrading, let's say, a 5.9+ put up in the 1970's, denigrates the masterful feat it was, back then.
I personally think everything should be graded for the current equipment available. The notes on the route should give details about the history/achievement of it. Climbing world is at its best when not egocentric.
Kneepads: We are talking about problems that 99% of us will never encounter and routes that 99% will never climb. The people who climb in that region and push the sport are the ones who should come to a consensus, which atm seems to be pro kneepad. I could imagine something like sandstone climbing, where certain area's ethnic doesn't allow them. For old/classic routes I'd say: Freeze the grades after 20 years (or whatever is reasonable), as new developments in shoes or other gear will happen in the future as well.
For all non pros: If I climb my 6c with or without kneepads interests 2-3 people max, which at the end of the day just doens't matter at all...
And even by saying 99%, you're way understating the percentage of people that won't ever be in this spot.
I’m 62, climbed my first rock in ‘69. Lifelong pro outdoor performance athlete/coach. The technology I’ve seen across sports outside rock climbing are much greater in an ergonomic sense. Sure, the camming and belay devices nowadays really decrease the inherent fear from falling (i still have PTSD from hip/shoulder belays, rapping and falling in swami belts and trusting nylon nuts and hexes 🥹) yet tech directly influencing climbing performance is tiny compared to a carbon fiber, electronic shifting, disc brake racing bicycle. Skis, tennis rackets, plated running shoes! All are 100x more performance enhancing than, uh, a knee pad!? Why discriminate between rubber is ok for feet but not knees? As long as it’s not altering your ape index or influencing an individual’s anatomical and physiological state, not sure where’s the controversy. I mean, maybe a whole new grading system for nude ascents? 🥴😂 Another great interview! 🙏🏾
Awesome point. So cool to think about the technological change in climbing vs other sports. Although there are other sports that might have seen even less change than climbing (strongman comes to mind).
great perspective. And I’m here for the nudist climbing now 😂
😂😂👏👏👏👏💯💯💯💯you said it perfectly
@@Phoenixhunter157 "perfectly"?!??! THANK YOU! was just hoping not to sound like an old curmudgeon! I really do embrace where the sport matured given its explosion...having a 16 year old daughter however really helps me from not becoming bitter about our precious "old days"! really appreciate your kindness!
@@DreIsGoneFission THANK YOU for your kindness! Heard, honored about your "Strongman" point but that's an indoor "iron" (largely) sport which is somewhat (thankfully) immune to hi tech infiltration. head bowed and keep crushing!
Literally 30 years ago (and I've done very little climbing since, so I don't know what precisely is available on the market now), we would use the sort of neoprene sleeve knee braces you can buy at a drugstore, and sometimes glue a piece of resole shoe rubber onto it. There were tons of no-hands knee bar rests being used comfortably at the difficulty sport crags of the day, such as Rifle, CO, and I don't recall much ethical debate around it; in short, how is this still a thing lol?
There is no controversy here if you are a reasonable person (like ondra)
Kneepads are a tool like shoes, chalk, tape and crack gloves. That someone didn't use them 20 years ago is beside the point.
Exactly. Had people had them twenty years ago people would have used them.
this channel is like the Townes van Zandt of the climbing world. Best there is and no recognition. I love it! A real climber's channel. You're awesome :) ❤
Never question ONDRA!!!
Back in the day, I would wear jeans and tape them if necessary. Worked pretty well, usually not as constricting as kneepads.
Heard, honored! see my convo with @Phoenixhunter157 above. Putting up FA's in the 70's in places like Vedauwoo, South Platte, Clear Creek, Eldo, Lumpy? Crack of Fear? omg! fs we wore jeans and ilg even used my old hockey knee/shin pad to climb a route at Split Rocks in the 70's!
Is that lightbulb hanging from Adam's ceiling up to code?
When I began my climbing journey, in 1980, it was regarded as bad form to use your knees. We didn't use crack gloves, but we did lightly tape our hands. But the use of knees was not up for debate.
in Bleau, if you use your knees, everyone will say your ascent was not valid
I can understand saying kneebar pads are invalid, but knees themselves? What about chimney techique, hand jams and dropknees?.seems just as arbitrary
@@spiroxylo2247 if you do a topout using your knee in Austria we call it "Mariazeller" and everyone will laugh at you...
Local ethics
So, is a book lodged under the kneepad aid?
fuck yes it is! it completely alters your anatomical configurations! It's no longer YOU that is climbing it but some artificially morphed configuration of "you"! c'mon young ones! get a clue!
Great 👍🏻
Thanks! Lots more in the full podcast interview 🙌
so why not use climbing claws too?
I wonder if they could make a full body rubber morph suit and then we could get to v20
Or the relevant sport grade
I think shoes, tape, magnesia should be the only aid….
And the tape is for only protect Skin or avoid injury… all other Little helpers have to be mentioned…because they reduce the grade…But are ok…Outdoor-Climbing has no rules!
his excuse about getting used to it, saying its the same as wearing a tool makes no sense. Thats like saying having fingerstrenght is a tool. Getting your body ready for climbing isnt the same as wearing a tool
Anything but campusing is aid anyway 😉
nah, having arms is aid