Will My Electricity Meter Run Backwards After I Install Solar?
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- Опубліковано 20 лип 2024
- Installing solar panels can be a great way to save on your electricity bill, but will your meter run backwards once they're installed? In this video, we answer that question and explore the difference between older style analogue electricity meters and Smets 2 smart meters.
Should you upgrade your meter if it is running in reverse?
What are the implications of the 1968 Theft Act - section 13 abstraction of electricity?
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00:00 Solar panel installation and electricity meters
00:16 Analogue meter and smart electricity meter
00:42 Meter tampering - 1968 Theft Act
01:10 Smart meter will record tampering
01:38 Exporting power
02:14 Smart meter import and export recording
02:38 Analogue meter running backwards
03:34 Not all meters are the same - "ReD"
04:00 Should you change to a smart meter?
04:28 The biggest bill you'll ever receive.
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#solarinstallation #electricitybill #smartmeter - Наука та технологія
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My supplier was Igloo energy. They refused to accept my readings as they were going backwards, so instead they billed me for estimated readings which were massively more than I was actually using. Since they went bust I have had numerous letters from the administrators demanding that I pay the estimated amounts. I have refused and although they say they are looking into it I am continually getting letters demanding payment, bailiffs, etc.
You must go to court over this.
@@juliawigger9796 I'm happy to fight it.
You cannot be accused of stealing electricity if over generation of pv is put into the grid, effectively using it as an unofficial store of power, ( meter running in reverse)and then when the panels are not generating you’ll be using that excess power , you generated, then the meter will run in the normal manner.
@@michaelp761 Their view was that my meter wasn't working properly and so they charged me for estimated use, even though I have 9 kWh of panels and 14. kWh of batteries.
@@andrewhartley3 They're right. Get a proper meter fitted and stop trying to fiddle the system.
One of my customers was one of the first in the UK to have solar . They came over from Germany and fitted the system to a old analogue meter .it went backwards . The first issue she had was as you said the
Meter went back past the last reading and she did get a bill as if the meter had gone all the way around and she did get a enormous bill . In the summer they did produce way too much power so they had in a barn with about 10 convector heater on full blast to keep the meter going back past the last reading she got it to use just a few units per quarter . So they wouldn't question on the bill. She had to keep accurate records of the meter reading times . She ignored the energy companies request to change meter and to go onto the fit tariff then smart meter came in and she was hounded by her provider . Because they wanted the energy and bigger profit of her investment . She took a hard stance with them and kept the old meter . they would turn up and try and fit a smart meter and said the installation was dangerous on numerous occasions and one excuse was due to German warning signs and instructions . They tried everything to try and force fit a new meter . They never did once she got solicitor involved and testing done to prove it was safe .
She sold the house recently and used hardly any electrical since it was fitted . I was told the change of ownership force change from a deemed contract to a new customer and the meter was changed with the new owner to a fit tariff making very little for the new owner and a lot for the electric provider .. one issue that had to be addressed was to up date the supply out cut off so the power was being back fed into the system if the mains went down and prevented any possible injury to utilitie workers working on the over head Lines . If this systems was fitted today it's unlikely it would be allowed due to the capacity of the old existing cables feeding the farm .
Many farmers now are being refused solar farms due to outdated under rated cables in rural areas it's why it's been discourage with lower profits simply because the national grid want to maintain control and balance the power and to keep their generation going making profit rather than all the money going to small providers on a sunny day . Their is also the issue of switch off millions of small solar installation at their will .
If every home had a small wind turbine and solar we wouldn't have a energy issue and the energy giants wouldn't have any profit on windy or sunny days . It's a cartel with government backing . Best thing to do is to disconnect from the grid as many farmers are doing now and running on diesel generators it's cheaper for them .
We had solar fitted in June and our old analog meter did indeed start going backwards. Called EDF energy and they turned up 2 days later and fitted a smart meter. The smart meter hasnt been able to pick up any kind of signal since even though they keep saying give it 2 more weeks. Meanwhile we are still paying for the same monthly usage as before as its never had a reading since fitting 6k of solar. Funny how they are not in such a rush to fix this for us. We should have stuck with the old analog meter.
The smart meter communications may not be getting through tothe energy supplier, ut you can still take your own manual readings, photograph those, & send them to your energy supplier. And keep the photos as proof in the event of a court case! 😉
smart meters have the ability to screw u by giving over inflated figures at any time and remotely sent these figures to display .. and cos of the harmful waves coming out of smart meters, for health reasons i won't be allowing one of those to be installed
I might ask my supplier to remove my digital meter and install an analogue meter.😂
I have a colleague who has just this set up and makes sure he’s readings are always more than the last readings, never been changed in 5 years.
I would call this ‘free battery storage’ you’ve already produced the electric and they are just storing it for you until you need it
Any rotating Ferraris Meter "in certified date" will have an anti reverse pawl, this is indicated by a little logo on the dial plate.
how does he make sure they're always more than last time's readouts?
@@nicotoscani1707 Just put the AC on in the house or put the oven on full blast if you’re do a meter reader. If not just keep note of previous months readings and make sure they’re more than what’s produced. It’s technically not stealing as you’ve generated the electric and it wouldn’t be any different to you having large battery storage
@@wonkyshotkam how much more than past readout does it need to be? what if it amounts to 5 pound spent
I used to have a TIG welder, every time the high frequency unit was turned on the analog electric meter used to spin backwards. Wish I had that welder now.
I am guessing that is because the welder was such an inductive load it fooled the meter in the respect that they were designed to assume a 'unity' power factor in a domestic setting. In the old days heavy industrial premises had powerfactor meters because of this fact, but I would guess modern smart meters get around this ...
Wow I start my TIG course tomorrow lol.
I'll put this to teacher 😅
We have a 5kw solar system and a analogue meter already and looking at adding batteries and more panels. I appreciate the information you have provided and look forward to seeing more from this great site. Thanks
Having had a old analog meter for a number of years with solar PV and a battery my old analog meter did not show any energy consumption during summer. Now with a ‘smart meter’ installed last year during summer it is recording 2 kWs per week consumption. The Tesla Gateway2 needs to ‘see’ that the grid is OK and does this by importing a very small amount of electricity.
I enjoy the content, it gives a simple example of what you are explaining.
Coming from having worked at a supplier I don't think they would agree to a feed in tariff without having either a smart meter or a separate meter to record the export.
Trying to give a lower import reading than what was previously recorded requires a lot of data flows and arguments between the meter operators, distribution operates, electricity database operators (ecoes) and finally the supplier.
Still using mine with solar lovely to see them figures going back n my energy company ain’t changing it to the smart meter ,just a big con no wonder energy providers are rinsing joe public
Strictly speaking, the notification process to your supplier (not the DNO) of a 'normal' domestic installation (importing energy only) that is upgraded to become a 'prosumer' that can import or export energy requires that an additional export MPAN (Meter Point Administration Number) is generated to accompany the already existing import MPAN for the existing meter. This _should_ prompt a check of the existing metering equipment to ascertain if it is an analogue induction-disc device that can run backwards (some can only turn up to one revolution in the 'reverse' direction and then stop but others will just keep rotating backwards).
As a part of that process, suppliers will now insist that you have a smart meter fitted. All SMETS 2 meters are export capable.
The DNO has to be notified in order to approve the system design for several reasons.
1) they don't want excess export to knacker the substation. I use the general term "knacker" here as it covers a range of problems.
2) they don't want potentially lethal level of current being shoved through their wires if one of their employees is trying to fix an otherwise dead system.
@@rugbygirlsdadg a proper grid tie inverter should shut down if no power is detected on the grid, so even a solar+battery setup won't function off-grid when there is a power cut.
@@Soruk42 But a proper proper one will still power the house, but not back feed the grid.
Great little demo set up
I was going mention what would if went back beyond zero.
My friend has solar and a old meter and pays next to nothing as it runs backwards.
I did two systems with the old type meters and both went backwards, I told them, best thing they could do, was make sure they were out when they came to read the meter.
On one of the jobs, when I went back last year, the meter was replaced with a digital type, but they had a few years of it going backwards.
Great advice 😂
Well you know the next thing that’ll happen, the gov will put an obligation on us sparks to report old meters otherwise we’re in for the ball and chain.
@@Mmmjustme that's true, on one job, the electric company called the guy to ask if his meter was going backwards, I said tell them no, and just say you had the washer on at the time they called, if they clock it 😂😂
@@acelectricalsecurity 😂🙌👍
My first solar Pv install 10 years ago wound the meter back ( u tick the box informing them ) up to them to change it but you must advise client to be in the clear
I had my solar installed and yes my meter ran backwards, this was declared as required on the FIT application that this was happening. my bills dramatically dropped and the energy company did nothing for along time, can't remember how long but think it was almost 1 to 2 years, and they only showed an interest when my meter readings were declared invalid on submission (less than previous readings) and they came out and changed for a new meter.
Great to know - wonder how fast they will be under the new prices 😂
When we had solar fitted in 2009, our old mechanical meter ran backwards when we were exporting. But eventually our supplier came and fitted an electronic (not smart) meter to prevent this perk. It was good while it lasted.
To be fair, they all should be like that.
You are giving electricity to the grid, you should be paid for that
@@TheAllMightyGodofCod We are on a Feed in Tariff, so we're already being paid for our solar production.
@@andyfraser5876 Modern feed in tariffs are taking the piss. They bill you at 35p/kWh and you're lucky if they pay you 3p/kWh.
@@Soruk42 We're still on the old FiT, so we're getting 13.14p/kWh + 4.25p for 50% deemed exported.
We had our Solar Array fitted on an old analogue meter that liked going backwards, and I had quite a complex 'meter reading system' ... which worked a charm for about 8 months.
Then I moved to a Smart Meter system, and now don't export anything.
Happy days...
My elderly fathers meter goes forward in the winter and back in the summer. Overall it does go forward it’s been doing this for Ten years. He did tell the installing company this when they put the panels in, company that he was introduced to by his energy supplier all those years ago. Every year they ask for a reading and every year in Feb they get one. At some point in the future I expect I will have to sort the mess out.
It's not a mess, it's living the dream 😂
We have to do a installation notice to our DNO (I guess that's what you call the company that owns the actual cable that comes to your house) and inform them what kind of setup we have installed. The consumer also need to have a contract with a electricity company that buy back excess electricity. Here the DNO and electricity seller/buyer can be two different. Also we have smart meters installed everywhere, there was a law a few years ago mandating the DNO to switch to smart meters everywhere
I was with SSE when I had my panels fitted by the council and despite informing them that I had had them fitted I had no end of trouble getting them to accept my readings as I had an old turnwheel meter this went on for three years before I had enough and changed to octopus who have had no problem with my readings and I have had refunds virtually every statement
I'm not risking it, just made a spreadsheet of what to tell them, based in a formula of daily readings, how much generated, and will vary the formula in the winter to allow the deficit to catch up. After my solar was installed I phoned them up to give my readings as it was much lower than my past usage pattern and openly told them I was aware this much lower reading would otherwise raise more red flags than a Soviet parade. They were happy with the explanation, and of course my formula allows the monthly readings to go up as we head towards winter.
Will the Standing Charge go backwards?
Had solar panels since 2012 with the old style meter, that runs backwards when exporting, never had an issue with all the energy companies. We are big user of power so never exported more than used, but do have a friend that had panels fitted before me and since then has never paid for electricity! They have the big feed in tariff also from 2010/11 so get paid over £1400 a year and has never paid for any.
Hi.
I have solar panels on my roof but not smart meter. I really wanted to get smart meter for the last 6 years but due to the horror of smart meter 1 i didn't.
Are all sm2 like this on your clip? My solar panels are from 10 years ago under rent roof scheme and have thier own micro gen metre with EDF feed in tariff. my current energy provider is EON and I want to leave it like that.
Can i still get one like this?
Thank you
My understanding is that having submitted your G98 or G99 install notification (which has details of solar gen. capacity and meter) to the DNO the onus is on them to replace the meter. Having recently completed a solar install I opted to get my old mechanical electric meter replaced with a smart meter before the install process started. It seemed a lot simpler than doing battle with my power provider because meter readings were going down however legal it might have been...
Not sure on that one as DNOs don’t look after metering that falls under the energy suppliers. Do they talk is the question.
That's provided the installer did submit a notification to the DNO. Plenty of non-certified cowboy fitters doing the rounds now demand is spiking.
nice video, i like the old landis&gyr meter, I have been working at landis+Gyr since 1990.
I used to with for the company who made the relays for inside L+G meters - BLP Components in Newmarket.
I had solar installed in 2015 and had an old style rotary economy 7 meter. It did have a back stop but found if I was generating just a little more then I was using (a few Watts) the meter would go backwards, but of course would stop if the generation was a lot more then consumption
Thanks for the details explanation. i always wonder about this analogue meter situation and now i got the answer. I have a question about my smart meter. will you be able to help me with it? So i recently set up a 5kw on grid solar system and my smart meter have 4 arrows. (up and down, left and right). I figured out the left and right arrow are energy import and export. But i have no idea about the up and down arrows. Also there are marked with O+ for up arrow and O- down arrow.
We'll have to explore that one further.
You mention the micro switch on the smart meter, apparently they will also report when the main fuse is pulled, they know its a power cut when neighbouring properties also loose power, just one and chances are something's been disconnected.
Our meter runs backwards no problem
The feed in tariffs are a disgrace and the energy suppliers are making a nice profit from the little guy.
Would love to see a video from you on the all in one growwatt off grid solutions. I’ve seen them on Dave potz channel and wondering if they are UK approved and how a sparky would go about installing them.
I'm not a sparky, but I would be *very* surprised if they are UK approved as they are designed for the US centre-tapped neutral arrangement so would likely not work correctly on the UK supply. Last year I installed a Victron Multiplus in a US-style house and the electrician said that we either had to get an autotransformer so that it would output 120-0-120, or just run it as straight UK-style 240V.
We chose the latter option as most of the loads that I needed to support were dual voltage, and it was easier to get a small transformer for the one load that wasn't.
Some utilities in South Africa program their smart meters to bill you forward or reverse. You are not allowed to feed back into the grid unless you are approved to to do so.
This is certainly interesting and not at all how it works here in Australia. We have two Rates for electricity. Usage is charged at for example 20c/KWH and then solar feed in tarrif or FIT is generally paid at 7c/KWH. And since the Government has demanded smart meters for all houses and businesses we'd never have issues being overcharged or undercharged like some of the other comments ive read. And for people who have solar before smart meters, you'd actually get a second meter installed that only measures generation.
Simple answer is yes - but they cotton on pretty fast and swap out your old meter for one that can't run backwards...!!
Would a plug in solar system have the same effect and would you recommend this type of system.
There are two distinct types of analog meter. One will happily run backwards all the while you are exporting from your solar installation. The other type is fitted with an anti-tamper pin which will only allow the meter to reverse for 1Kw and then stop. Just my luck... I have an anti tamper pin version. From what I can find out, the only way of knowing which type of meter is to see how it behaves once everything is connected. It seems that for obvious reasons, the presence of the anti-tamper pin is not widely advertised. Batteries are definitely the way forward, already seriously considering getting a second one installed to our new system.
I guess that means that when you are making energy, your meter is not going forward then. That would be a save anyway... If you had a smart meter, then you would be screwed. Export counted very little and import counted high and the utility company have control over your meter too. Never have a smart meter installed, it gives too much control to the utility companies and government.
Battery prices are still the top deterrent: sodium ion, sodium sulphur and aluminium sulphur batteries should (theoretically/logically) slash the cost of both stationary and EV powerpacks. How much longer will we be forced to wait for this crucial price disruption?
Paul G
Most Analog Ferraris meters are fitted with an anti reverse pawl, this is indicated with a little logo on the dial plate, I am surprised a meter as modern as 1975 wasn't fitted with this device.
We had solar fitted, with an old style meter about 6 years ago, the meter ran back, didn't say anything and energy company didn't say anything till the meter reading was less than the previous. They came quick to change it to a dumb digital metersl, despite the smart meter roll out being in full swing.
Pleased you didn't get the rolled back bill
If you switch suppliers using u switch or similar . The terms and conditions state you agreed to have a new smart meter installed and they will hound you to install it . Resist ask for a conflict lock number and complain to your mp and the energy watchdog .... my meter still goes backwards and I’m looking to increase my solar by installing another one ... I’m using the grid as a big free battery 👍
I got a 4800w solar array fitted this summer with the hope that my analogue meter would spin backwards. Nope, goes one revolution then stops. My neighbour has a similar looking analogue meter and he has submitted lower readings to his electricity supplier than the previous quarter and received small refunds! I suggested to him to get a heater in the garden or whatever to ensure his readings always go up slightly as pretty soon they will come and change his meter! I understand the electricity company can in the case of faulty or inappropriate metering equipment back charge the customer, and this is what they count a backwards running meter with solar as. BUT in the UK they can only back charge upto 12 months. So if I was lucky enough to have a backwards meter I'd keep quiet and milk it as long as possible- but ensure readings were always going up a bit each time so as not to arouse suspicion!
In my case, sadly, I'm going to have to get a solar battery or live with the mean smart energy guarantee feed in. At the moment I'm ploughing upto 20kwh a day back to the grid for nothing because I've not got the MCs cert yet!
of course it does, but the regulators replace them with smart metres, probably because they can "slow it up" where as the old metre you watch going back. they didnt legislate their changeovers to smart cash cow metres for the hell of it
My sister recently got solar, with DNO approval to export up to 6.5kW of power. She’s got an analogue meter, but it has a backstop so she’s exporting for free. Sadly she isn’t changing it to a smart meter because of “bad stories from friends about them”. I presumed she suggested that they were inaccurate.
Can you please do a video that explores the myth of smart meter (in)accuracy? For me, my solar inverter import and export measure are within about 3% of my own smart meter measurements. A setup like the one in this video, but with differing loads: pure resistive, switched mode DC power supply, inductive loads etc….. would do a lot to either debunk or confirm peoples concerns.
Accuracy isn't such a worry, though there were issue with some earlier meters. I'm resisting simply because it's intrusive (24/7 data collection), a security risk (despite what providers may claim) and most of all they provide a way to cut you off remotely (via internal contactor) which will facilitate automated rolling blackouts of there are energy supply issues. Add to this the general unreliability and problems swapping providers. My father is on his second smart meter and still has no remote panel operation to provide energy consumption read out and has no cell connection so still has to provide manual readings to the energy supplier. He lives in a fairly big city as well, not in the middle of nowhere.
Would be interesting to see how the 2 meters cope with leading and lagging power factors - domestic energy is supposed to be Kwh - not KVA. Also how they cope with chopped up load wave forms from all the switch mode power supplies we now have (this must be an issue otherwise why the move to type A RCDs)
Good question - something we’ll have to investigate. Some smart meters you can see the KVAR readings.
Hi I had the government fitted solar panels in 2011. I have the exact digital meter that’s in your video. How do I know if I am getting the free electricity I am generating? I did a test suggested by shade greener and turned every power outlet off for one hour and took a reading. After one hour the reading was the same. She suggests I’m not getting the free power. Is she correct.
23/2/23
Great story.
You should have another one with exit tariff. They don't allow to use the grid as battery.
It is quite simple and you answered the problem perfectly well. If you have installed a full solar PV system that has enough power to run the household and give a lot of excess then the inverter adds a few more volts than the grid and this is enough to push your generated current through the meter the opposite way. There is nothing wrong with doing this in so far as fraudulent use since you are simply storing your excess and in fact helping the grid to supply others that are using more. Storage is the biggest problem with energy and any way that can simplify this should be grabbed with open harms. However, the greedy energy produces think they are providing a storage system with no return for them in good times. Paying customers a pittance for generating a pure refined energy source better than the grid that carries more spikes than weeds in your garden is down right immoral. In the UK our government love to invent laws to suit them in power not for the good of the people so they may make it illegal to suit the energy produces not because there is anything wrong with doing so. To combat the issues mentioned in this article only generate enough power to cover the household use and ensure that the meter never turns back more than the previous reading that way everyone is happy. If you need to generate excess power for grid outages then a battery storage is currently the only way but carries a cost in the purchase of the equipment. It is easy to get an MPPT invertor that can operate using three methods - Grid tied, Solar, and a diesel generator. This can be setup to work in sync with the household needs. Some people on here foolishly thought they were missing out on getting paid that pittance so the opted for a smart meter or a replacement and so told their supplier who quickly sorted that out in their favour. Smart meters do not save you money in anyway other than show the ignorant what they are using and when with the illusion that they could offer lower costs at off peak times but other devices are available to do that without the risk of hackers and technical issues with smart meter technology not to mention the ability of governments to monitor what the usage control they have from afar - even rationing when the supply gets tough as we will see in the very near future through incompetent policies. PS the possibility that there is a hidden hammer blow with the meter reading 999,000 can only occur if you have just had a meter fitted or you have been using it for years without any draw from the grid hence the need for additions to the system.
Wish I knew can buy analogue meter, mainly as want to measure power consumption of a machine at home so if sell stuff can make sure cover electric cost
We had a full solar system fitted including a 5.3kw battery in July, our bill at the end of July £38 and August was £18, unfortunately we didn't have a smart meter fitted and was told that in order to be refunded for the export we'd need one, even though we have a separate meter in the house which gives us an export reading. Have missed out on 2 months of exports. Today we are having a smart meter fitted so hopefully if the sun keeps shining we will be receiving a full export tariff of 7.5p per kw
Don't get one
@@nickcoppard5335 Trust me I didn't want one but had to get one if we wanted to sell back the excess power, Octopus would have owed us last month
I am in California and at the beginning of the year my solar was "authorized". I wrote down the meter reading on the smart meter a month later. Since then I have put an excess of 3 MW-hr into the grid. Super insulating the house has really reduced the demand! There is a small connection charge on the monthly bill, but then suddenly it went to zero. After three months of that I was wondering what was going on. Well, California has carbon trading and part of the fees received are credited to each utility customer every spring and fall (autumn). That is almost enough to zero my account for the year. Of course any excess credit for feeding the grid goes poof at the end of the year.
That’s a great result - is the problem
In California too much sun? ( of course we are jealous)
@@efixx Not usually in northern California, but this week we have been setting records. Some of the local towns have set new records ten degrees Fahrenheit above the previous highest recorded temperature. Just east of here it was 116 degrees but we only got to 92 because we are on San Francisco Bay. At the same time right on the coast it was 75. This is an extreme example, but it is usual in July for it to be 68 in San Francisco and a 45 minute subway ride east it is 98.
When I had my pv array fitted my old analogue meter did run backwards had no end of arguments with my supplier as reading was always going down. In the end I had a smart meter fitted to stop the reading issues
Thanks for the info - who was the energy supplier?
@@efixx eon is my supplier when my smart meter was fitted the sparky fitting it had to send verification I hadn't tampered with the old one
Should have given reading once a year to average out over summer winter
From ofgem
Unless there is a good reason not to, suppliers must install a smart meter if they are:
replacing a meter
installing a meter for the first time, such as in a new property.
You can choose not to accept an offer to have a smart meter fitted. You can also request to have one at a later date without being charged. Choosing not to have a smart meter might mean you have a limited choice of energy tariffs. Some smart tariffs could be cheaper.
When your getting 5-10p for power export and purchasing at 30-50p batteries make sense
Great input 👍
Um….how could they prove someone with a analogue meter isn’t dumping battery power through an inverter or had a temporary solar set up. So many questions!!
My father in law had solar installed 10 yrs ago and he had an analogue meter. He couldn't understand why he was still a high energy user. When he swoped providers they came and inspected his meter and found it had been damaged they think from running backwards. So when it was going forwards to was putting o more than it was supposed to. Once he had the meter changed to a digital he went from high to a low user of electricity.
Hope he negotiated a refund!
Lets look at some facts.
Most homes consume up to 17 amps continuously because of refrigerators, freezers, furnaces, air conditioners, etc.
That does not include any 240V appliances like clothes dryers, ranges, and water heaters.
This 1000W Grid Tie Inverter will produce only 6A max for a short time.
Unless you are using this in a vacant house, you will never run the meter backwards.
And you would have to have a special meter installed to do that.
Even if it did run backwards, Utility companies steal every watt you produce.
You simply will never make money off of solar this way.
It will however reduce your bill as far as usage goes.
Unless you have a battery bank of 18 batteries and a solar array of 5KWh, you won't be able to run this 24/7/365.
You will be lucky to run it for 4 hours per day.
The utility company always charges separately for delivery and other things.
Don't be confused or lied to about what this can do, It don't.
You are better off setting up smaller arrays with 750W inverters to run individual freezers and refrigerators, this way you will partially reduce your bill.
But, considering they can contain thousands of dollars worth of food, you will want to also set up an automatic relay to return them to the grid if the solar/battery fails.
Even this type of arrangement is only good for about 4 hours per day which is 1/6th of the bill for that appliance.
I live in Belgium and I've got such an old type meter, it does run back, should I export more power than I would import over 1 year, then I won't have to pay power, but won't get paid anything for the power I produced too much.
Because I have such a meter I'll get to pay taxes on the power rating of my transformer (because there's no realistic way to measure the usage of the grid)
Smart meters are rolling out, but due to some weird regulations, current owners of solar pannels can't be forced to get a smart meter until 2025.
However if you get a bigger or new installation, you get a smart meter within 2 months.
With smart meters you get paid a bit for exporting power (about 40-70% of the power cost, not including taxes)
But don't have to pay the 'transformer tax' you have to pay with old meters, cause with the import/export measurements they know your usage of the grid
Interesting to hear about the situation in Belgium.
We’ve had solar since 2016 with a older meter £££ not much push from the supplier to install a smart meter (were also on a looped supply) but 20,000kwh later and no complaints from me, my FIT rate is still a measly ~16p
Do they adjust the bill using the Fit reading ?
We snuck in just before the FIT tariff went away entirely so we get 5p/kWh - 16p would be netting us an extra £500 a year.
FIT payments tend to be handled separately to bills. Doesn't even have to be the same energy company. We pay Octopus, then Good Energy send us quarterly FIT payments!
@@efixx No, never even when we had the same supplier for the FIT payment & the energy bill, Eon. We left them as our energy supplier for a smaller company (💡) but Eon still pay the FIT. 🤷♂️
52p!!! Wow… I’m paying about 6cents US. Just a bit South of Seattle. Solar is hard to justify here, low sun, and very cheap power. The ROI is over 30 years, the equipment may not last that long…
Solar ROI at these prices has dropped to about 2 years - it's not very sunny in the UK
@@efixx 2 years is quite good, it is encouraging how much prices have come down (and equipment/batteries have gotten better) in the last few years.
You used to be able to purchase a voltage reduction unit that was fitted in your side of the tails ie reduce your terminal voltage watts consumed on any appliance drops proportionally ( simple ohms law ) w=v x I as all meters are watt hour meters 1000 watts consumed 1 unit used simple.
You will find it hard to find a meter with no reverse flow detection, as that has been pretty much standard since around 1980 on meters, more due to people plugging in arc welders with a massive out of phase current, and the meters then reading wildly inaccurately, and often running backward from the large lagging near zero power factor load. You would need to have the combination of an old property, at least there since the 1970's, and never having had a change in electric supplier over that time triggering a meter change, and a supplier who also only changes meters when they fail, though most modern suppliers do use computer software that can fairly accurately calculate what your consumption should be, based on location, style of dwelling ( all those similar properties near you), number of people, age and such, plus historical use. Big change down and they come calling, first step being looking for tampering, and then changing the meter anyway, even with no tampering found. The old meters used to be sent to calibration, but the "modern" method is simply to scrap them as they come in.
There are lots of old meters still in the network.
they just found one.
Yeah more common than you think
"A friend" has a house, 1995 build, has got analogue meter, does run in reverse. PV fitted nearly 10 years ago!
Interesting, I am considering having solar fitted wondering how to find an installer but more importantly one that can be trusted and legit.
how do the different systems/generators sync up in terms of the sine wave of the a/c ? or does that not matter ?
Smart meters can record both Kw and Kva but only bill for kW - old meters can only read kW
@@efixx ok, but not the answer to my question lol.
Have a google of "grid tied generator", "grid tied inverter" etc... They match the sine wave. My friend was wondering this, what happens if you just send back 240v? It would be out of sync lol
"A grid-tied inverter converts the constantly varying DC solar power and feeds it into the grid. It synchronizes the frequency and the output voltage to its connected grid. When solar energy increases, the inverter output increases too, injecting into the grid."
So, the solar power can simply be fed into the house grid and it’s additive, you input 50w and pull 30w, that’s it? No special electronics or other gimmics?
Apparently we had to have a smart meter fitted
The bills went up around 200% in the first year
Smart meters are capable of being used to shut your power off remotely. Eg if fuel for electricity production is runs short then we could initially be asked to use a lot less energy, if this isn't enough the government can step in an selectively turn power off by some kind of scoring system, or by region, but the advantage of turning your power off at the meter means they can be extremely selective. Hospitals, care homes, dentists, and the like might stay powered, but you might not.
For these reasons, am getting a generator and switching to gas for cooking. Don’t have solar panels and batteries are an environmental disaster.
@@richardwoollaston3650 gas is great, when you have cooked on gas, you never go back to electric cooking. However there was plans (probably still is) to prevent new gas installations, and new appliances will be outlawed eventually. I expect the rules for gas devices will be made so difficult to meet that people will get rid of gas altogether in droves, making it harder and harder to actually have gas even when you want it.
As far as I'm concerned, they can take my gas cooker from my cold dead hands because that's what it will take!
unlisted video what a rare find
You’ve had a sneak peek 🫣- will be out in the wild today.
I heard the first gen smart meter smets1 double the units/bills when people have solar
I'd be getting that fixed if it wasn't in my favour!
The proper answer is...It depends. The older spinning disk mechanical meters would run backwards.
The newer ones had a mechanical device to prevent it.
You're not likely to find either of these nowadays.
This to prevent people fiddling their meter by connecting it backwards,
(There were fiddles to do on the seals also.)
The newer meters with LCD won't run backwards.
I know someone who has had solar panels for 5 years and at times his meter runs backwards. He submits meter readings even after the meter has been read and they credit his account. The supplier has not caught on yet and can only back date his usage by 12 months if they find out. He us Hundreds if not thousand up.
I was wondering if these so called smart meters could cope with back feed into the grid , Got a old analogue meter that whizzes backwards when its sunny 🙂
SMETS2 meters read energy usage perfectly well in both directions.
Old style meters will always run backwards when the solar system is generating. And then back to normal at night. The meter has to be changed to a compatible one that shuts off when generating electricity
I have one of the small rectangle plastic dump digital meters. It shows RED (reverse energy detected) regardless of weather im generating but has done this since the first solar switch on. Anyone know if it clocks forward on the reading even with reverse current as ive always been concerned it might ?
what happens if you switch inverter off, does it go back to normal display? If so you will see if it is counting units
Your recent electricity bills should help to answer that.
@@efixx Its not a new installation circa 2012
@@willdatsun with inverter of it continues to cycle RED and reading
@@efixx it's a shame this test didn't have a dumb digital meter it to answer this question. I would have expected it to just not pay for export but go forward when demand was higher than generation.
Anyone does the analogue meter have a way to reset to zero? Thinking to use to measure a device power use for like a job but like if reset to zero for next job
I understand that if you have solar fitted and indeed connected to the grid you need it professionally installed by a MCS installer. This will require a meter upgrade to a smart meter. Old analogue meters can not be fitted. If professionally installed then you qualify for a MCS certificate and G98/G99 certificate which will allow you to claim the export. Certificates sent to your electricity supplier. If you don't want to officially export you will still be exporting but you will not receive the export payment. Also the DNO must be notified about the installation and size of the system. This is done automatically by the MCS installation company along with the type of meter fitted and the MPAN detail.
Some analogue meters have ratchets fitted to stop meters running backwards. This includes gas meters.
Reading the comments below I am surprised solar installations connected to the grid have analogue meters fitted.
Partially true - MCS is not a legal requirement. Yes you may feel that using an MCS accredited installer offers you piece of mind and thus, is worth the decision to find one. MCS is basically a set of standards that are deemed to be appropriate for Solar PV (and other renewables) installations....
The issue comes when you wish to register for a Smart Export Guarantee tariff (SEG) with one of the utility providers that have to offer them [any provider with over 140,000 customer I believe]. At this point, not only do you need a compatible smart meter to record your export (must support 1/2 hourly billing), but also apparently an MCS certificate.
So if you have an old style meter, that does wind back, you can improve on the SEG Tariff (current best market offering paying approx. 15p/kWh), by winding back at your prevailing import rate, no brainer.
The marketplace perception of 'needing' to have your Solar PV installed and signed off by an MCS accredited installer, fails to mention there is an alternative - FlexiOrb, who also have a set of standards. Rarely will you see the organisation referenced, because the government, in their infinite wisdom have backed MCS. Like most standards bodies, MCS have become a bit of a monster - ironically when there is no legal demand to adhere to their standard, UNLESS you want to benefit from various funded schemes. Personally it's a racket and the fact there are alternatives SHOULD be referenced......choice is everything, especially when you are not bound to a particular approach.
If you are considering Solar PV, do your research and I would wholeheartedly agree with ensuring you deal with a reputable installer, 100%, that adheres to standards......just realise there are alternatives (and the big utility do acknowledge this, including Octopus !!)
Finally, not sure I agree that if your are MCS accredited, they complete your (the installers) obligation to register wit DNO !! We complete our own DNO registration, whether than be G98 or G99.
The best thing to do is go off grid.
Get rid of the standing charge.
Get rid of all the bills.
My friend had one running backwards for many years. He just made sure he used enough in winter to compensate. Meter was inside and only got read in winter 🤣. Another interesting query was one person their meter clocked UP units when they were exporting. Needless to say they soon got that changed
Net metering as seen in many US states should be the way forward in the UK. I'd vote for a political party that placed this in their manifesto. We Brit's don't like being taken for mugs and our sense of fairness would be honoured with a net metering option.
I have a grid tied inverter with a limit (current sense on incoming house mains) on it so it never generates more than the house is using. No one needs to know anything then :)
Mine only exports if the battery is full.
I'm using a leased vehicle, the company who supplies the vehicle is asking about an electric vehicle when i replace my current vehicle, I'm not too struck on a new electric vehicle due to the extreme charges for electric coming into force in the future. with using the current none electric vehicle I know roughly my fuel costs. The main question I want to know the answer to it, Can I have an electric charging point on a "shared" power supply? my electric cable (single phase) comes into the property into the "DNO Fuse block" from the bottom then another cable is connected also at the bottom going away from the property. (cable comes in directly under fuse carrier 'left side' then exits back into the floor from 'right side') the cable at a glance is 25mm in size (combined Live / Neutral / Earth) inside a black sleave. This property is approximately 40 years old. The fuse carrier is Black in colour, not Grey. I did see on a video via UA-cam that a shared supply can not have a larger fuse installed to cope with an electric vehicle charge point, therefore in the future when most cars are charged at a domestic property, how would the charging point be installed (would the shared supply have to be changed to a single supply)?.
Use the granny charger that plugs into a 13A socket?
We use bidirectional green meter for import & export in Pakistan
Modern meters have an export counter as well as an import counter. Sadly, the reading on the import counter never drops.
Yes, as the video shows.
@@hippopotamus86 Sorry - tldw
mine goes backwards again now as had to get a new inverter fitted going in reverse at warp speed now only got 1 more year of service life as 1985 on sticker so 40 years are up but another trick is to mount the old meters on a hinge and tip them up as at right angle wheel will stop moving . ur honer i was doing some painting and forgot about it lol 🤣
is this not effectively the theft you referred to - winding back the electricity you had used and should pay for?
It's more like you're generating electricity to replace the electricity you used earlier. So you've used less overall, and so should pay less overall.
The effect is the same as installing a suitable battery, or using PV-generated electricity to heat hot water in summer, so that you don't export any excess.
I have installed 36 solar panels. I have pumped over 4000Kwh to the grid. Electricity I can use to replace my oil boiler with a GSHP when fitted to further reduce my carbon footprint. Nevertheless, it seems that E.on Next would prefer me to have a digital meter so that they can pay me i pittance if any for my electricity and then charge me retail for the electricity that I put on the grid. The 1968 act does not apply as I am not stealing anything. Are you aware of legal precedence or guidance that would allow E.ON Next to force me to have a digital meter. I propose to defend my position vigorously. For instance, I suspect that since the meter is behind a door, then the criminal charge of "Breaking and entry" may be a good start? But my case is against the corporation, not the operative as that person is just doing what he is instructed by a company promoting the use of fossil fuels. Notwithstanding I pay in excess of 50P a day for E.ON Next to store my electricity.
Of course it will. Just like the odometer in your car is running backwards when you are reversing, innit'.... 🙄
I had to change my meter because my system often generated more than I consumed, even charging the batteries. I believe that by law in the UK, the meter mustn't go backwards. It means the suppliers either get your surplus energy for free or at a low rate.
Our electricity bill rocketed when we had a smart meter for this reason we actually thought the panels had gone faulty sad part about it was we actually volunteered to have a smart meter fitted 😭😭
Yes it does I got a mate who's go backwards he's got solar
You can greatly reduce meter numbers by placing strong magnet pol next to spinning meter. The meter will cheat. It will show less energy taken than in real happened. Stronger magnetic field will make bigger cheating.
found out the old style meters ran backwards back in the 70s, someone told me honest guv
I would just invest in storage and not give them a mAh 😄
Wise 👍
SMART METER BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Grass!
It may not be legal to make your meter read less than the amount you have taken.
So basically what you are saying to those uninitiated, is that, if domestic customers have solar installed and have an old meter installed, they could be inadvertently breaking the law?
A bit of a grey area as it's more borrowing than abstraction.
When we had PV installed just over 10 years ago the electrician said he thought our old mechanical meter might run backwards when exporting. I found it would run backwards just a little bit - the wheel started turning backwards but then stopped after less than a revolution. I presume this was the backstop which you mentioned.
Now we have a sooper-dooper smart meter - which registers 300 W of export pretty much all the time, even in the middle of the night. I've told our supplier but they said that as we weren't being paid for metered export (old FiT scheme) they weren't interested.
Aren’t energy suppliers great 😂
so you're exporting power back for free ? at your cost ? No thanks !
@@blow0me Errr, no. We're on the old FiT scheme which means we get a generous payment for *generating* the power, after which it doesn't matter whether we export or not. We can use it all in the house and we still get paid the same.
can someone explain to me how this is made safe?
if the power from the solar pannels is just back flowing into the grid, wont it make it super unsafe for anyone working on the lines when the powers out?
In a word, no. The inverters that are used to convert the DC output from the solar cells to AC for use in the home can detect loss-of-mains and automatically shut down - this is a standard requirement and is the default arrangement for solar cell installations. It is possible to have a solar installation (usually combined with a storage battery) that will allow you to continue to supply your house during a power outage. Additional equipment, testing and prior approval from the DNO is required (at additional cost!) to accommodate this. In essence, the equipment disconnects your whole installation from the DNO network instead of just disconnecting the solar installation.
Yeah, fairly standard for a PV install to have both physical AC and DC isolation, as well as sensors in the inverter which detect loss of AC power and isolate too
@@JamesScholesUK if I’m being pedantic (I am 😁), a loss-of-mains protection causes the inverter to *_disconnect_* automatically, not isolate. Isolation has a specific meaning and involves more than just disconnecting a source of energy.
All grid tie inverters have self islanding. Even if you have a battery it stops working. Only off grid inverters run in a power cut but then you need to run power sockets to everything.
They can change the meter to calculate exported energy. No biggie.
Do you know why they hate this ? Simply because you buy it back for the same as you sold it for ! They don’t get to rip you off! No batteries would be needed which is better for the environment. You’d simple use the grid as your battery.