The FLOW8 has two problems, both of them in the mic preamps.
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- Опубліковано 1 лис 2022
- The FLOW8 is in many ways a work of genius. But two problems might make you think twice before 'going with the Flow!'
00:40 Mic Amp problem 1
01:00 The truth about the analogue mic gain
01:20 Mic Amp problem 2
01:30 When this won't matter
01:50 When it will matter - SM7B
Hmm, what's the problem with digital gain? Let's see. 20dB is 10x gain for voltage. That is 3-4 bit worth loss on resolution, leaving you still with 20-21bits. I'm okey with that.
I have 2 of these Flow8 for DJ Rentals along M32 and X32 for band rentals, and the Flow8 is very, very good for the money, the DJs are impressed by how good their voice sound with a SM58 on a RCF 932.
PS:Ch1 & Ch2 has Midas PreAmps :)
Thanks for real world feedback, there's nothing like getting input from situations where you have spent real money and are using the gear in real gigs. I think your use case is a good one for the FLOW8, a live DJ set means you will be getting plenty of level from the talent into the mic which means you won't need so much analogue gain in the mic channels and as you say the FLOW provides lots of value for money in its features. I need to do another video on the flexibility of the USB returns, just haven't gone round to it. I did run into a problem the other day - no 44.1 on the flow. Thanks again for dropping by - while we're talking Behringer and Midas - do you notice a difference between the X32 and the M32? Ta like, ppm6.
Any help would be gratefully received! ... I'm looking at getting this for outdoor, BATTERY-driven singing for my 12 singers where I can't use my normal mains setup. Indoors we rarely need mics but have two Paired Rode M5 phantom cardioid mics, and sing from backing tracks on my iPad plugged into speakers. (Speakers when indoors are total 100 RMS but outdoors this time I'll probably only have max 50 RMS speaker sound and I don't want to use electric mains in case it rains. Normally we perform to an audience of 60-100 people indoors. We're about to perform OUTDOORS for a Remembrance Service, having been told they have mics, but now I find they just have one dynamic mic and a CD player! Help! Any suggestions?
The FLOW does not have Automatic Gain Control so you are ok there. The FLOW will run off a USB battery pack so you are ok there. With only 1 mic you will struggle. I would be tempted to use your two Rode mics and the dynamic and divide your singers into three groups, put the dynamic mic on the strongest/loudest group. The FLOW has eight inputs so you'll be fine there. The mics amps aren't super quiet but if your singers are loud enough you'll get away with it and you have some simple effects (reverb) that you can apply. Not sure what other battery options you might have - are the speakers battery powered? The one thing I would say is budget some time to get to know how the FLOW works - download the circuit diagram which is the best guide to where all the signals go. Hope it works out. Ta like, ppm6.
Can you remove the hiss that comes through the vocal mic channel ? I use a shure SM 58 live and its really loud hiss through my PA
Hi Simon - the Flow8 does have some onboard EQ that can help with mic hiss. You'll need to download the app - there's versions for Android and Apple. And then pair your phone with the mixer to get access to the features. What is your setup at the moment? Which channel is the mic plugged into and how much gain have you got in the mic channel? Ta like, ppm6.
Good to be reminded that, despite all the bells and whistles, it's still the most basic factors at the beginning the chain which often matter most; reassuring in a way.
How very true. The mention of quadrant faders reminded of one Audio Supervisor who used to stretch an elastic band around the fader so that as soon as the VT finished he would let go of the fader which would snap shut at great velocity. No one said TV sound was art, well at least no one who worked in radio or 'the Senior Service' as one of my radio colleagues loved to describe it. I wonder what the last desk to have quadrant faders was? I'm looking to your expertise here Hugh!
Does the Flow 8 impose an Automatic Gain ? - presumably I don't want that if I want to preserve contrast between loud and soft singing for my group of 12 singers usually singing more classical or traditional songs rather than shouty pop. Our video recordings have been completely ruined when the contrasting dynamics were automatically levelled out. If Automatic, can this be turned off?
You can request Flow to start an automated gain setting session either on all inputs together or each channel separately. Works really well. You can do it when main output is turned off as well. Love the function.
Thanks very much@@larstenfaelt1859 So won't automated gain just level out all the volumes and ruin the sudden loud singing which occasionally happens at a dramatic moment in classical music? When I used my video camera something suddenly cut in and reduced the sound to practically nothing just at the most dramatic outburst. It was our most dynamic performance and I could have cried when I heard the recording. Am I right in thinking that provided we set up the Flow just when we are performing the loudest sound then we will still be able to have the dramatic changes in my singers' volumes without it all being levelled out?
For me The Flow8 is very Good
The Flow8 has many, many good features - particularly its digital flexibility. I'm going to make a video about the very flexible routing that the Flow8 offers for USB monitoring. Thanks for dropping by. Ta like, ppm6.
You can use xvive p1 for channel strip without phantom power.
That things save my ass too many times. I have two in my box
I should get one of those! ta like, ppm6
I was excited to get one of these to use in a duo I play in. It could do separate monitor mixes, remote control, effects, record. Too good to be true. I thought the bluetooth control was a much better option than wifi which seems to be problematic with some other mixers. I could connect to it with my Google phone initially but an update to the phone stopped that. I have an older Ipad which never connected. All that to say, I had no way to connect to it, which makes it partly useless. I went back to a Soundcraft board and also realized that the mic preamps were noticeably better than the Flow 8's.
Hi Bryan - that OS/software/hardware loop is the real gear killer of the modern age. I'm sorry that hasn't worked out. I agree the amount of control and facilities you get with the Flow is a real draw - but the downsides have to be reckoned with. Thanks for dropping by. Ta like, ppm6.
Hi Hope you can help. White Noise / Static. How can i fix it ? tried lots of different mics etc To computer with reaper & Flow8 mains out to a TC-HELICON GoTwin to phone. Headphones to GoTwin and headphones to flow8 still the same etc
Just with usb to computer or go twin and 1 microphone pluged in still the same if anyone can help would be awesome. Maybe i need a isolator for power supply?
Thanks Michael
Thanks for dropping in Michael - sorry to hear of your problems. What happens if you plug one mic into the Flow and listen on headphones - so checking the flow without the USB to the computer? Ta like, ppm6.
@ppmtv-qh9qk Yes, did that diff mics and leads, etc.
Did mains out to a TC-HELICON GoTwin got noise but with same mic no noise with only GoTwin so not mic or lead.
Plug into different power points, etc and no joy at all.
Reset Flow8 to no joy
Now waiting on seller I got it off to get back to me
Also thanks for replying
So it does sound like your Flow is faulty. Tell me what mic are you using? If it is a mic that needs phantom power - have you got phantom power switched on in the Flow - easiest way to do that is with the App - available on iOS and Android? Ta like, ppm6.
Hello Sir,
I've stumbled upon your channel while researching what microphone to get and would be grateful if you could share some of your wisdom with me, since I am entirely new to the game :). I am searching for a microphone to use on a Sony FX3 with the XLR handle unit. It should work as an indoor, as well as outdoor mic, and I would like to capture fictional content with it and occasional live events. I don't know if that is too much to handle for one mic, but maybe you know of one that would check these boxes. Price is secondary to me. I would want something that is future proof and flexibel.
Hi Walle, thanks for dropping by and thanks for the question, it's a good one. The truth is you will probably need a sound kit of more than one microphone to cope with the range of jobs you want to do. One key question, do you have anyone to help with sound? If not you will certainly need radio mics to cover interviews etc. unless you are going to put the camera on a tripod with a locked off shot while you cover the sound with the mic on a boom (pole). So let's say you have two radio mics to cover an interview and then you have a gun mic to mount on the camera for general usage. So let me stop there. Let me know in a bit more detail what situations you want to cover and we'll think about what mics you need for your kit. Have a look at this video for general introduction to sound on the FX3 with the XLR adapter. ua-cam.com/video/igKXrftrFp8/v-deo.html
ta like, ppm6.
@@ppmtv-qh9qk Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. For now, I will completely handle the camera and sound on my own, so I would definitely need an on-camera mic first. The content that is most important to me is fictional films. I want to be able to capture dialogue inside and outside, while the actors don't directly have to stand in front of the camera, but inside the viewing angle. I don't want to isolate the dialogue like with a shotgun mic, but I want to capture it inside the environment. So if a car is driving by, and I hear it louder than the actors talking in reality, I also want it to be captured similar on sound. I guess I want to be able to capture as much sound as the camera captures the image, if that makes sense. Of course, there should still be some loudness fall off so that the sounds in the distance don't become primary. I've seen that Schoeps is offering the Colette series, which is able to switch the capsule to a different pickup pattern. A microphone like this would be useful if I ever have a Boom Operator, or need to capture Interview sound. I just don't want to buy a Sennheiser MKH416 for outdoor dialogue and then a different mic for indoor use. This is also because of the problem of matching them later in post-production, which I have no experience with and therefore would like to avoid.
Well I think there are two routes here each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
1 Kick off with Schoeps - they are some of the world's best mics, loads of recordists in film and tv use them, they don't lose a lot of their value second hand. Start with the new small preamp
www.soundkit.co.uk/product/9004570/schoeps-cmc-1-miniature-mic-preamp
add a capsule cardioid or hypercardioid and away you go. $1800 dollars or so
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1513024-REG/schoeps_cmc141g_set_cmc_1_ug_amplifier_mk_41.html
Down sides - $1800 up front. Do you need the cardioid or the hyper? And remember you need an out door winshield set from Rycote or Cinela both are pricey items.
2 Buy a cheap cardiod mic mount it to the camera (the FX3 has some mounting issues - see video link from other post) try it and see what the results are like. If the cardioid is tight enough for your workflow then buy the Schoeps and keep the cheap mic (sE8 or Line Audio CM4) as a spare.
The amplifier + capsule approach is a great strength for Schoeps, alongside the fantastic sound of course. But Sennheiser MKH mics have a trick up their sleeve. They work on an RF principle which makes them much more immune to dampness, humidity and associated problems. Do you work in high humidity environments?
Hope this helps, ppm6.tv
@@ppmtv-qh9qk Robustness is definitely important to me, since I want to film in a more documentary style in all kinds of environments. Maybe MKH mics are the better way to go, and I will give up on the modularity. Which mics of that series would be viable as an on-camera mic for handheld shooting? As I mentioned, it should work indoor and outdoor and be able to capture some environmental sounds again. Thanks a lot!
Hi Walle - the MKH 8040 is the cardioid and the 8050 the super cardioid. Check out the windshield options because the 80x0 series has an MZL connector that can be used to fit very small and light windshield systems. Check out the options here -
www.soundkit.co.uk/product/399/sennheiser-mkh-8040-cardioid-mic-506289
However, I'm still a bit worried about trying to shoot with an on camera mic. Now I've never done that because, I've either been the sound recordist to a camera operator or I've used wireless mics. So I think two things will help me think about this. First - can you find a bit of footage on UA-cam shot with an on camera mic that looks like the sort of thing you are trying to film so I can look at and more to the point listen to? Secondly I'm going to shoot a video with a mic on a camera just to see how good or how bad the dialogue will be in a real room at realistic distances. Ta like, ppm6.
sooooo.. i have this on the way to me THEN i found this video.
My plan is to hook this up to a pair of sm58/blx288 and to a JBL IRX108bt to handle the vocals in a karaoke system. (yes i know i said the K word)
Music and screen are from youtube to my sound bars.
Will I be ok with sm58 and the 40db gain on the flow 8?
Thanks for a good question. I'm going to say yes. Remember you have 20dB of digital gain in the channel and in a noisy karaoke environment people don't mumble, at least not in my experience. I think you'll be fine. Do let me know what happens when you go live with it. Ta like, ppm6.
@@ppmtv-qh9qk i hear that the BLX288 or all wireless mic have some level of pre amp to it. Maybe i can stay within 40db on the flow 8. best luck to myself!
Well I haven't tried this on the FLOW8 but I used this gain hack on the iD44 with the SM7B...
ua-cam.com/video/w8dhhSV4V14/v-deo.html
Ta like, ppm6.
@@ppmtv-qh9qk that's great but it cost another 200-300 dollars. I was thinking about having both mics on XLR1 and 2 with gain at 40db and fader at unity. Then use 1/4 cable from monitor 1&2 and into 5 & 7
then adjust the gain from there as needed.
sending 1&2 to monitor and only sending 5&7 to main output. at the cost of 2 1/4 cables.
That indeed is the idea of the gain hack - route the signal back in. But you might not need it if your singers give you plenty of oomph! Let me know how this interesting project goes? Ta like, ppm6.
I used a zoom f8n with a faulty rf condenser that produced clicks on the real gain changes. Those were every 3dB on the f8n, and stopped low, 51dB if I remember correctly. Everything else appears to be a digital multiplication, or the mic had no problem with gain changes above that.
Hi Aristotle - am I understanding that the F8n has analogue gain only up to 51dB? Off the top of my head Zoom advertises 75dB of mic amp gain on the F series recorders? Ta like, ppm6.
@@ppmtv-qh9qk The gain step is 3dB, so the faulty microphone should produce an audible click if there were extra steps. I would design for 50dB because the maximum EIN should be at gain of 40 or 50. There is no benefit over 30dB even with the lowest noise LDCs in a good 24bit recorder, just a waste of dynamic range. The noise of the system is much lower than the noise of the microphone at 30dB.
Well in that case the FLOW8 will suit your application - it has 40dB of mic gain. Ta like, ppm6.
The first two mic amps aren't too bad, but the two combi inputs are poor. They seem to have very little headroom. I use them with xvive 48v battery boxes, as they seem ok with mics, but if you put a line source into them they clip easily. Such a shame, as its really a great wee mixer. Only just realised after watching your video, that i can adjust the mic gain without the app! Cheers!
Mmm I haven't tried line inputs - I'll give that a go next, thanks for the heads up. I guess powering a mixer off a 5v USB psu is going to introduce issues and mostly at the ins and outs! Ta like, ppm6.
the max input level is listed in the spec
Ch1/2 = +20 dBu
Ch3/4 = XLR +6 dBu; TRS has a fixed 20dB pad, so it is +26 dBu
Ch5/7 = +22 dBu
Ch6/8 = +19 dBu
@@philiptong4978 The unfortunate thing is, that the -20db pad on the TRS in the combi jack, is 20db below line level, so you have to add 20db of gain on a normal line input to get a useable level, and it ends up quite noisy. It's all well and good if you need the space for +24db but it would be nice to just be able to plug in a normal line source, and get a decent level at unity without any extra gain.
1. test with different gain level for Ch3/4, there are user experiencing noise at 26dB gain but goes away from 27 to 30dB
2. does Ch5/6 or 7/8 gives you lower noise? If you are running out of analogue channels then compromise have to be made
3. If your source is 24/48k pcm consider using the usb input
@@philiptong4978 Yes, 5/6 7/8 are fine, and work as expected. I've been aware of the sudden drop in noise from 26 to 27db. And you're right, compromises have to be made, especially at this price point, and the fact that it runs on only 5v.
And Rode added gain on the AI-1, a usb sound interface with a firmware update. We can't trust digital😁
My usb power socket snapped off and took the print with it , binned .
I agree the usb socket is a real weakness. The old type B was a better connector or fit a type C. I think maybe a flying lead might help and there are some right angle adapters but fundamentally this is not a good powering solution. XLR4 anyone? Ta like, ppm6.
Who on earth is needing 60db mic input gain.
Anything that needs even close to that should be running through a lifter like a cloud boost.
60db gain on a mic wtf 😂
Many dynamic mics need 60dB of gain that's why the cloud lifter exists. High quality interfaces like the Audient iD44 provide 60dB of gain , the RME Babyface 65dB of gain, the new Neve 88M has 68dB of gain. And then you don't need to spend the money on a Cloudlifter. Ta like, ppm6.