Marginal Mechanics and Red Herrings - Why So Weak? - Extra Credits
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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Every game has some skills or abilities that are just weaker than other abilities. Players wind up ignoring them or resenting them, so why include these "red herring" mechanics? While it can be just lazy design, there are also some very good uses for these marginal mechanics!
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Why are seemingly useless mechanics, abilities, and gear in your game? It's not necessarily bad design!
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Extra Credits hey man I like your video and I'm the developer of new games in our really really really was thinking to make a game that not so much easy to understand but after I see your I'll see your videos I realised that I must make a game that is don't stand so thank you very much you
Hell Yeah... Like 2 weeks ago I went to a conference of gaming industry in my country... and one CEO of a company told us (I am remembering and paraphrasing what he said):
"Don't begin trying to create an RPG... It's to heavy, too man/hour demanding and have lots of things that you will use ONCE in the game and never again. The best way to begin is with simple mobile games.".
Now I understand what it was... that was "marginal mechanics".
Extra Credits The Hostage mechanics in Persona 5. A rare situation where an enemy nabs one of your party members and making demands rather than just killing you with the extra turn they just earned. Most of my friends had no idea it even existed until I told them about it.
You guys are the best. Can you please do more of your serious topics in games
I'd say that any useless mechanic, item, or skill would make the game world feel more vast and realistic. Like a game that has rocks or banana peels as items, which also has limited inventory space. This'll force players to consider sorting out useful/useless items to pick up. I know that most RPGs I've played just has me picking up EVERYTHING I've come across without really pondering their uses. Maybe at one point, there'll be an item that seems useless (like a broken bell), but is a key item to an optional quest, it makes us really focus on the details of that game world.
Thorf The Poison Hater needs to be a reoccurring character
"I specifically asked for this not to happen"
I'd like a guest cameo of the Heck Snake as well
"This is less than ideal!"
He developed this hate of poison after that gravewalking tark ruined his feast by poisoning the keg of grog. Thorf The Poison Hater still bares the scars to this day and is just waiting for a chance to get even with the pink skin man swine that did him wrong.
TrygveOtharsson
SHRAKH-EATING SHRAKH
In my idle daydreaming on hypothetical games that likely aren't going to happen, I have had the idea of a ability called "Autocannibalism" which for the price of 3 health would restore 2 or 3. You would be able to learn it from a npc who is designed to look like like a insane person. Then later in the game a ability is introduced that allows you to gain power or mana or some other advantage from losing health, changing a morbid gag into an actual mechanic.
I heard you're idea's and their definately good.
Creative, an interesting idea
I just wanted to say the art for this episode is hilarious.
Right? I seriously had to giggle several times throughout the video, it was really amusing
I agree. The Drake one got me rolling on the floor.
Heck.
"I specifically asked for this not to happen!"
Died
Though a part of me thinks "Of course they could afford animation in this video, it's sponsored so they had more money to get it done."
Reminds me of the 5-HP build for Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door.
You can reduce your total health to 5, trading it for Flower Points (Mana) or Badge Points, but that would be a terrible decision on its own. There are also badges though that give you bonuses when you're at 5 health or less, such as dodging more often or increased attack. Usually those badges are too marginal to be worth equipping over something else, but when you combine both of those "bad" strategies together, you get a perma-buffed character that can stomp all over enemies levels above where you would normally be able to go.
Your mothers face is as uninteresting and hideous as her cooking
Reminds me of the move Baton Pass in Pokemon.
Baton Pass is a move that switches out the Pokemon using it for another in your party. This seems useless on it's own, you can switch Pokemon without wasting a move slot. But if you research deeper, the move actually switches out the Pokemon while maintaining stat changes. This allows one Pokemon to learn amazing stat buffing moves without having the attacking moves to use those stats effectively, then they can baton pass those stats to another Pokemon who can use them effectively.
This is how a move I thought was dumb as a kid became my favorite for running through the game as an adult.
I just happened to see a kinda competitive pokemon fight where one player took baton pass to avoid pursuit.
There are counters to Baton Pass, but it became such a powerful effect when teams are centered around it that Baton Pass teams were banned by Smogon in most of their competitive ladders. Just as there are counters to Baton Pass, there are counters to those counters, and by the end of it you can have a team of overpowered monsters by allowing all of them to have layers of stat boosts.
I personally dislike the fact that smogon banned Baton Pass, I liked having the anchor to the meta, it made things interesting and imo was healthy for the competitive format.
Sean R. I only ever played Fire Red. Then and now. I just didn't know what it did back then. But giving a Mr.Mime barrier, calm mind, and baton pass (to pass off to my starter) is my favorite way to run the game now.
horserax, if you think Baton Pass was healthy to the metagame, you weren't there for DenisSsS' reign. This guy was #1 on the smogon ladder for MONTHS with his Baton Pass strategies. There was very, very little in terms of counterplay. Check out the post he made about the team here:
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/glorious-pass.3506272/
I want a watering can like that just so that people can look at it and ask me why the heck I own it.
I think a fourth value of these 'red herrings' is optional challenge. Take, for instance, the broken sword or the wooden ladle from Dark Souls 2. There have been numerous runs of people using these objectively terrible weapons to complete the game. Likewise, using an under powered or very marginally useful weapon to beat an opponent in a competitive game (such as the Taser in CS:GO) can be seen as another way to embarrass your opponents, if not just for your own amusement.
This is helped by the obviousness of the terrible tool. Why would you try and take somebody if you could just shoot em? In the face? Several times?
I know i'm dating myself here, but in Unreal Tournament, the Shield Gun and the Teleporter in order to kill some one with pushing them with shields into hazards or telefraging them, oh man, it's incredibly difficult but it's super enjoyable. More modern stuff, like me and my buddy are trying to play through Ditto the Sword: Curse of Mormo (something like that title) and I feel this so much, questioning so many of the items in the game. As well as when we've played risk of rain, although I see some of the connections there. Ditto has such poor conveyance in general though.
Like melee in cod
Or similairly using smoke grenade damage to beat match
Fourth option: Jokes. Look at Morrowind and the Scroll of Icarian Flight. Completely useless. Friggin hilarious though.
I completely forgot about that. I remember killing myself with that as a kid. That was hilarious.
Very small side note, it was useful in some cases. If you used the second one right before hitting the ground, you would have enough acrobatics to not die. That said, it wasn't that much faster of a way to get somewhere than normal methods. Also, of course, you were dead if you messed up.
Insert also Junk Jet in Fallout 4.
Junk is useful, and can be heavy, why use it as ammo? Because 'Death by Teddy Bears' is hilarious.
Side note to the side note: it also allowed for insane speedruns.
You reminded me of the twist joke weapons on FFVII, they look absurd, have no materia slots, and hit like a truck
I kinda wish you'd give examples where games did something you were talking about for reference. Sometimes it can be hard to think of these in context if I haven't played something similar in a long time.
Varna the only one I can think of is RE4's treauser system
Have you ever played any of the main series Pokémon games or any of the Final Fantasy games like Tactics that let you choose different classes for your characters? Those are the best examples I can think of.
In Pokémon, there are a heck-ton of buddies that in the grand scheme of things are really not helpful. In FF, (especially Tactics) there are at least several classes in each game that are simply useless during boss battles and really just kinda "eh" for regular encounters too.
In Diablo 3 there is a skill that lets you summon 3 ancients to fight for you (Barbarian class). Without the right set items and other skills they are "suboptimal" to say the least. However, there is a set that allows you to unlock all the runes of the 3 ancients skill (normally you can only pick 1 from 6). This means that with the set they are already pretty strong, but combined with the right skill (Whirlwind) they can boost your strength considerably. Too recap, the ancients skill is weak on it's own but paired with the right set and other skills it can become incredibly strong.
For the Diablo 3 players this is a bit of an older built but I haven't played much since reaper of souls
In Darkest Dungeon there is an item that reduce the chance of your characters getting a negative effect if they reach to high stress. But the item is only meant to hurt players, as you want a better item to prevent it from happening in the first place (plus it's still only a chance increase)
TL;DR Lightning Returns had a loadout build that let you eat all damage through combining two seemingly useless armor/accessory items that grant damage resistance at the cost of dps.
Say what you will about the game, but Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII had a garb called Cyber Jumpsuit that would give you 85% physical and magic resistance at the cost of nearly all your damage. Additionally, there were two accessories you get later in the game that gave 15% physical or magic resistance as well, but you only have two accessory slots that you'll probably use for damage boosting items. So for the majority of the game I never really used them because I liked my damage.
Then you get to some of the really difficult late-game bosses that require a lot of defense to endure. Combine the garb with the accessories and then bam, you have a 100% physical or magic resistance tank and you never have to hit the guard button again when the boss winds up that high-damage skill or spell. Just quickly switch to that loadout and you're saved.
I hope this example helps you as well in understanding the case of the combinational part of the video. My explanation may have came out a bit convoluted.
Definitely appreciate the TAZ reference at the beginning
superbarukun yeahhh!!
superbarukun same, i was like "wait, taco, wizard, is it taaco??" and then saw the umbrella
Abraca-fuck-you!
i fucking FREAKED
Yeah I didn't even know about TAZ when this came out originally but I do now and it's been great to see them now.
"By having bad ability you allow the player to identify why it's bad which in turn helps them assess what is good"
If only this logic works on movies and TV shows.
Reito Shizaki Well interactivity so, for once its actually the fault of medium limitations
I think OP is wishing that viewers could learn what are good movies and tv shows after consuming ones that were bad.
Yes, that's what I mean. People these days tend to hop too blindly onto hate trains. A lot of people can't seem to tell why a show or a movie is bad, they just want to hate on it.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe there are things like objectively bad movies, that it's not just "opinions". But blind hate in itself is no less dumb and immature.
Criticism = good
Blind hate = bad
For example if people acknowledge Transformers movies as bad and treat them as they deserve, as in choosing to go to watch a better movie than going to watch Transformers anyway just to come out complaining about it later, then we might actually see the Transformers movie going away or actually improving.
+Reito Shizaki How can you believe that a film's "quality" ca be objectively determined? It really is just opinions.
Reito Shizaki It's called bad Seasons XF like Comparing Star Trek Discovery to DS9. DS9 is just so damn good XD
There’s a LOT of this in Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind. Most of the cheap weapons and armor are easily outclassed by equipment you can get at the very beginning of the game. It might as well be gold when you find it. BUT npc enemies always drop every item they have in their inventory and they can only use what they have in their inventory. It makes enemies seem much more like the player, and therefore like real people, because they follow the same inventory rules as the player. So the useless items aren’t actually for the player to use, but rather for npcs to use in order to make the world more realistic and engaging. This is a very good, but somewhat niche use for crappy items and equipment.
Good observation
like the silver hand bois in skyrim with their sickness potions
I’m surprised that you didn’t mention marginal mechanics that are designed for a small fraction of the players. Like, only a very hardcore type player wants to use an item that makes the game harder with no benefits, like the calamity ring in dark souls, but it’s not useless if you just want even more challenge.
I don't think the ring is technically a marginal mechanic as the calamity ring is a fantastic item if you're maximizing for difficultly and its purpose isn't really hidden. But you've got a point about items designed for a small group of players. An example that might work better is the RPG perk in CoD4, it's worse than the more grenades perk that uses the same perk slot as it's slower to use and significantly less accurate. But it's a rocket launcher which, in and of itself, is a selling point to some players.
Was thinking about other examples that maximize for other things. Leadership tools, mobility, humiliation, difficultly, honor, and flavor all came to mind.
E.g.s: Marking tools, deployable teleports, weakest/joke weapons, being able to remove armor, non-dex weapons in dark souls, and chainsaws.
@@Captain1nsaneo a player kills someone else with the RPG, lol, they died to a player with the RPG perk? get gud
The person who drew this was having a lot of fun
I would add a fourth possibility: as a way of adding challenge for high-skilled players. Dark Souls' difficulty system is based around items with either massive amounts of utility - so much that it lowers the overall difficulty - or those with very low utility but similar function that can be used as an additional challenge for skilled players. Destiny has a similar weapon for its competitive multiplayer, a sniper rifle called No Land Beyond. It has far and away the slowest rate of fire of any of the sniper rifles, it has no scope and only iron sights, doesn't do a ton of damage *and* it sits in your primary slot so you're giving up a more flexible all-around weapon - but since it sits in your primary slot, you always have ammunition for it on spawn, it's very maneuverable, and it still one-hit kills to the head. So, if you take the time to practice with it and really know how to use a sniper rifle well, you can do very well with it.
"Combinatoric Marginal Mechanics" -- I finally have the word to explain what drives my friends crazy when I keep experimenting with the shit tier stuff.
I to have the "sometimes annoying" habit of experementing with EVERY SINGLE THING I can get my grubby hands on
What I hate is bosses being immune to status effects and OHKO's while dealing status effects and OHKO's to the player. This is especially frustrating if your build or a member of party is status-based. It's punishing the player for using a valid moveset.
There's a lot of good reasons why a boss should be immune to certain status and OHKO effects while using them on the player. First, if a boss could be OHKOed that would defeat the point of having a boss fight. You didn't actually fight it. Bosses can OHKO you because you have counters to being OHKOed normally, in the form of gear or abilities. Second, a lot of statuses would be really broken if used on a boss. Charm, doom, silence, etc can all ruin a boss's strategy, again defeating the point of the boss. Third, normally you are prepared for and can better deal with status than a lot of bosses. Since you have more than one party member, you have other oppurtunities to heal and revive. You also get immunization gear and stuff to keep you alive and away from status.
TLDR: Letting bosses get statused like the player can defeats the point of having a boss fight, as it makes them too easy.
Sam McKay A boss that's weak to instakills and and status effects is a boring boss.
Agreed. I'm quite fond of games finding ways to make status effects viable against bosses - even if the statuses have to be weakened or something. Much better than just being stone-walled by arbitrary immunity.
Generally boss's need immunity to disabiling status effects, as unless its a single player game, the boss is the only threat in the fight so disable locking the boss is really bad for him. Obviously boss are immune to ohk effects (aside from random corner cases) that just good game design, you can't have the boss getting randomly one shot. Bosses tend to also be resistant/immune to %hp damage effect mainly due to their relatively large health pools. I have seen boss's immune to lifesteal effects (which invalidates the meele class in said game if they decided to spec into lifesteal) which is annoying but might be necessary as otherwise the fight just becomes attack boss until dead, out heal all damage dont bother dodging the non OHKing skill shots.
IMO, a game that does status effects really well is Epic Battle Fantasy (3/4). The buff and debuff spells are downright essential in the late game, and other status effects are handy as well. At the same time, it never feels puzzle-y. A rare case of buffs/debuffs and status effects not being the item mentioned in the video.
A good example is the Flare Gun from Team Fortress 2. On the surface it seems like a worse alternative to the shotgun, the projectile is hard to aim, it doesn't do much damage. But if you get good at comboing with it you can really wreak havoc.
Scorch Shot on x100.
Need I say more?
The art for this episode was on a whole different level
Scott Dewitt is amazing. I laughed at this harder than I should've. 😂
Hmm, I noticed that this episode was more animated than usual...
it is annoying how that so many rpgs buff up ailment resistances on bosses. Rarely are the ailments ever useful otherwise. I guess they serve as hazards to watch out for but, why would you let the player have those kind of moves so often
The reason for that is because some statuses could ruin a boss fight, making it hardly a fight at all. Being able to charm a boss, silence a magic-using boss, etc, would the boss fight a cakewalk, which is hardly fun. In a lot of RPG's though, things like poison can be used on bosses, and have strategies to go with that.
Emile Richard, while I agree in general (that it'd make boss fights to easy), I'd rather like to see diminishing returns for those things on bosses. So for example a boss mage can only be silenced for half as long as a regular mage, and every following Silence further reduces that time. That way you could still use Silence against him (e.g. to allow your fighters to close in before he throws a fireball into the group) while keeping him from dying too quickly. Also, bosses already have massively bumped up HP/armor/shields in most cases, so additionally increasing their resistance to stuff like poison DoT only to further prolong the fight just makes it more annoying.
And just imagine how friggin amazing it'd be if you could charm a boss into killing his entire band of mooks - and then he realizes what he's done as you start whacking away at him. There's so much potential for great interactions in that. The designer could even use that to trigger a boss's rage mode, letting him go berzerk, which increases his attack, but decreases his defense. So you'd have to choose if you take care of the mooks yourself and deal with a "regular" boss or have enough combined tank power that you can allow your bard to charm him without wiping the team.
Yeah, status effects in Final Fantasy games traditionally fall into two categories:
A) Marginally effective, debatable whether it's worth spending the turn to cast them
B) Directly useful, but not needed against most encounters, and ineffective against bosses
General conclusion? Stick to straight damage and party buffs rather than messing around with ailments.
Exactly. Bosses being resistant to most ailment and CC makes it just about buffing your team and brute forcing it through. Especially in MMORPGs, if you play a crowd control mage or some sort of support debuffer you're going to run into a monster resistant to status effects. Mabinogi does good on that though. Most bosses in that MMO are just normal monsters with more damage, health, and a higher combat power. Some status moves are based on combat power or how strong the monster is to you. Though by the time you can easily poison, freeze, or put a monster to sleep, you're probably already too strong for it but you can at least farm it for gold and items.
As someone who makes RPGmaker games, I feel you keenly. It's why I never do that shit. Status effects should always be useful.
But what about the self-challenge aspect? What about the players who decide, on purpose, to use sub-optimal abilities or strategies, just for the bragging rights?
I made a character in Skyrim that never equipped any items unless forced to by a quest, just to see what the challenge of that would be like. And if it would be possible to actually play that way. (And for the record, it is, though it's difficult.)
I made an Oblivion character with the backstory that he'd been raised by his auntie who never let him play outside so he didn't have any weapon skills. He was librarian and only had skills that he'd learned on the job. Not sure how he ended up in prison, but it was probably all some big misunderstanding. I also played an Argonian monk in Morrowind who had forsworn all violence just to see how far I could get (not very, mudcrabs man, mudcrabs everywhere, they never stop chasing you).
Rogue-like games often have a lot of stuff in them that aren't very good and the whole point is to find the best way to make use of them in your ever changing situation. Also things like the Not Created Equal and Hidden Potential mods that give your XCOM soldiers hugely varying skills and talents. Working with sub-optimal equipment is way more fun and true to life then simply mathing out what's the best gear your build.
While that's a valid and fun use for those items/abilities, I'm sure it's not why they were put into the game, and this video is about particular reasons why.
Not including joke weapons of course, but they're a bit different in total.
After 600+ hours, Skyrim became all about personality-based builds for me. One favorite was a Iron Man/Stark build (Heavy Armor + Magic/Shouts & Enchanting + Unarmed). I added an "alcoholic" trait, which requires me to buy and drink any alcohol I come across in shops. It often drains your wallet, but roleplaying is more fun with some negative traits :)
Oh yeah, I know what you mean Richard. I had a couple lawful good type characters whom I did what I called "deed for the dead". Based on the mythological idea of the ferry man who takes you to the afterlife if you pay him two gold coins. So my character would, for any dead person whom either I didn't see die, (give them the benefit of the doubt, because hey you never know) or I personally saw didn't deserve to die, (wasn't say, a bandit trying to kill me for my stuff) then I would leave a single gold coin on their corpse, and I wouldn't loot any clothing or armor they had equipped, as a way of respecting them and not just leaving their body nude on top of being dead. On most corpses that still meant a profit, but there were some that wouldn't have any money and I would take away one of my own coins to leave on them.
Also it made me realize how roundabout it is in Skyrim to LEAVE money on a corpse rather than just take it.
Ha, that's one I've never heard of!
4:29
That whole little sequence is amazing, and I love figuring out stuff like that.
Can you suggest some games that had these kinds of puzzles? Not many coming to mind...
There is also the choice based on the aim to increase the player's own difficulty level for increased challenge or humiliation of the opponent.
HighCoordinator Oh right, there's the Ugly Ring in Dust: an Elysian Tail for example. All it does is make you weaker with full gear than you would be with no gear. Like you say I liked using it to up the difficulty a bit, without having to miss out on the fun of maxing out the rest of the hear.
That goddamned pink skull made me laugh really hard. That'll be a fun gif.
3:54 Funniest Part of the animation by far it's so hilarious 😂 love your content btw
Taako!!!
TheMechanicritic so good
TheMechanicritic From TV?!
TheMechanicritic Someone should tell Justin
I guess he's from the internet now. Good to see him modernizing
Already told Justin on twitter.
Alright these Adventure Zone references are getting pretty blatant and I love it.
Good episode! Combinatory Marginal Mechanics, something I've never had a word for before now, are my favorite thing to discover in games. It's super satisfying to realize that something that was alone useless, becomes amazing if used in the correct context with other mechanics.
The big issue with status effects and boss fights is that most status effects are coded in as "absolute effects" that either trigger at full strength or not at all, instead of having ranges of effects. For example, it's convenient for turn based games where one turn is the smallest duration a stun can have and still have a noticeable impact. But in real time a stun's duration could vary by the enemies resistance, allowing a boss with high stun resistance to still be affected by a stun for a short duration without being totally immune to it. I would call this a "varying effect" status effect system.
In interesting improvement to this problem in turn based games would be partial disables, like stun prevents the use of physical abilities for a turn but not magical ones, while silence still allows physical abilities to be used, freezing reduces their chance to hit and affects their position in the turn order, poison does small DoT and also weakens their damage output, etc.
To summarize, status effects become more interesting when they aren't done using an all or nothing approach, and you can compensate for the weaker overall effect of partial disables by making them a secondary effect of damaging attacks so that the action doesn't feel wasted when you use a turn to apply them.
I've noticed that good combination strategies are frequently the result of a developer over sight that was never intended. A case that comes to mind, is in FFX-2 there's an equip item that makes all your attacks deal max damage when you are at critical HP. It's a decent item but is useless when your HP is high. However, the special ability of the gunner class lets you attack repeatedly based on how fast you can button mash, which in combination allows you to inflict ridiculous amounts of damage each turn, which will 1 shot almost every boss in the game. Suffice to say they nerfed the hell out of that item in the remastered version of the game by making it also inflict an uncurable berserk spell on the user which of course made it worthless as the negative effects drastically outweighed the benefits.
Another reason for red herring mechanics: because they're hilarious.
The visuals in this episode were a tier above. I chuckled more than a few times. Well done.
The bleed effect in Fallout 4 is great in theory, but in practice, it's usually not as good as numerous other effects. Nothing resists bleed damage, and it stacks without limit. Deathclaws are hard to kill, not because of massive health pools, but because of their powerful resistances. At first, it may seem that using bleed damage against deathclaws is the best way to kill them, until you put the theory into practice. Most bleed weapons cannot stack fast enough to do damage comparable to most other weapons. By the time you have enough bleed stacks on the deathclaw to deal significant damage, another weapon could've killed it already. The exception to this is with a random drop legendary weapon, the Wounding Shotgun. It doesn't matter which kind of shotgun it is, so long as it puts out a ton of pellets at once. Each pellet applies the bleed effect, causing the target to be suddenly bleeding out at a significant rate after just one shot, then a second shot is enough for a deathclaw to die before you can land a third shot. But the thing about the Wounding Shotgun is that it's great against everything! It puts out extremely high damage in a short amount of time and with no explosive damage, so none of it backfires. In the end, what looked like a "You need this mechanic to kill this boss and it's otherwise useless." thing, turned out to be a "Combining these two bad mechanics makes something awesome!" thing.
In contrast is rad damage. Just about the only thing in the entire game that rad damage does any damage at all to are humans, and for them, it doesn't deal direct damage, it reduces their max health instead, usually at a rate too low to outpace the weapon's base damage. The exception to this are weapons that only deal rad damage, which actually makes the weapon only capable of harming humans, and 100% useless against literally everything else. But even still, the rad damage from these pure rad weapons is pitiful compared to more common weapons, making rad damage only useful against humans that regenerate health. Unfortunately, the only human in the entire game that regenerates health is the one you play as, meaning rad damage is only useful for enemies, and not for you, but that's only if you're not in power armor.
Imo, bleed is very close to being the single most powerful legendary effect in Fallout 4. It's second only to the double damage effect (I forget what it was called).
I had a bleed combat rifle on my first playthrough. I used the high level semi-automatic weapon mod on it, and most enemies died faster than I could blink after getting hit by just a few shots. The DoT was around 30 damage per second, right? After about four or five shots, most enemies would die almost instantly from the DoT (I played almost exclusively on the higher difficulties, btw).
The legendary bleed was game-breakingly powerful. All bosses and powerful enemies turned into easily crushable ants. If you're talking about the standard base bleed effect on certain weapons (serrated knives or machetes for example) however, I completely agree. Those effects are next to useless as they deal basically no damage whatsoever.
Honestly, most the problem is that Bethesda's damage scaling was rather crap to start with. This is why I stick to a damage overhaul. Though I do agree that status effects could also have gotten a boost as well, the only one I really noticed in any of my playthroughs was slowing enemies with the Cryolator and usually they'd fully freeze and die by the time they actually substantially slowed.
@@Ben_of_Milam_Music dear lord what if you use a mod to stack the two legendary effects onto one shotgun
League of Legends used to use Combinatoric Marginal Mechanics for players figuring out items that weren't so popular with certain champs that would make that champ's playstyle out of its own normal bounds, but do incredibly well. It was an amazing thing to see people create such unique builds for champions. Nowadays the term most known for finding such a thing is a metamancer and Riot hates these kinds of mechanics and have been force feeding their meta and balances when items and champs were perfectly fine the way they were before. It's really infuriating to see your favorite champ with a unique build get changed due to community backlash and Riot's overabundance of trying to perfectly balance their game and at the same time pleasing the toxic community of whiners who can't figure out how to counter.
This is my fault; I'm sorry. TankMo was an awesome build.
That bouncing, smiling skull face had me rolling. Awesome job!
I feel like Neverwinter Knights II is an amazing example of the last version of Marginal Mechanics. Throughout the game you find small pockets of mineral ores, npcs who can be befriended but who have very little else to do with you for a good portion of the game... until you hit about the midway point. And you become commander of your own castle. Then you can go out, recruit those NPC's who you didn't think were very important before, find those mineral pockets and hire miners to dig them up so that you can upgrade soldiers that you recruit, etc. It was just such a great buildup for me, and it still sticks in my head as one of the better rpg experiences I've ever had because of it.
Preston H. Also, there is a mention in the video to a classic seemingly useless spell in DnD, the "summon" spell, which is generally to weak to protect a mage, but is extremely useful for the roge.
This is less of a thing in Neverwinter because of the stupid "realtime combat" which always turns into a clusterfuck in mere seconds -,-'
Still, Mask of the Betrayer is my fauvorite rpg adventure
@@C0C0L0QUIN There are no useless spells in DnD, when the gamemaster isn't a solution railroader. You can do that much dumb stuff in roleplaying games with utterly useless spells and the right plan...
loved the Adventure Zone reference Tacco for the win!
I enjoy how small touches of animation have been making the images and characters in these videos a lot more emotive.
Love that Taako reference
4:00 the most adorable skull to ever grace my screen.
Adventure Zone reference!
Only 30 seconds in and already treated to bonus Taako. I'm smiling, but also crying because the main campaign is ending next week.
I known it hurts my soul.
the art for this episode was awesome! so is the outro, love when the community remixes sfx from splatoon!
marginal mechanics Kings :-
Zelda and Pokemon
I'd say Pokémon is more "Design by Accretion" (a previous EC episode) than "Marginal Mechanics" - nobody planned the core gameplay around Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves, for instance, and they're both really unbalanced... but the games definitely has shades of both. Imposter + Choice Scarf is an example of a combinatorial marginal mechanic that can be really powerful if used well: I CAN DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO, AND BE GUARANTEED TO DO IT FIRST.
Pokemon, also, by virtue of how its progression system works, has a lot of abilities that are intentionally objectively worse than others. You'd never want to use Ember over Flamethrower, for example. But Ember is there as a stepping stone in making your charmander or whatever stronger. You get to play around with how the elemental typing system works before unlocking the stronger fire powers.
You are right
but what about magikarp... XD
BaronMcFungi Even generation 1 had some weird marginal stuff going on though. Imagine being told you had to program the move transform. "It's only really used on one Pokemon and has the potential to break the entire game if you mess up. Have fun!"
The art for this episode was really well done, like even more than usual. Not just how it looked, but how it portrayed the concepts being explained, so good job!
Extended Taako reference hell yes
I can tell the animator had a lot of fun with this one! Great vid as always, keep up the good work!
That's Scott Dewitt.
I can't believe nobody's mentioning the dank meme
Blizzic cause no one cares expect you dumb shit
Kylie Staraway “expect you”
Kylie Staraway it seems pretty irornic, cause you're giving him attention, and by defination, giving a "shit," by replying, by the by.
"expect you" "defination" man, nobody can spell here, huh?
also what dank meme
oh right
Holy hell, I literally exclaimed "Taako!" BEFORE seeing the taco and the umbrella!!
Goddamn HM01: CUT
HM 05 FLASH... Shudders.
Alex Smith Yeah, at least CUT had 50 power, it could be occasionally useful in early-game battles depending on your pokémon's move set. FLASH was trash.
atleast these are useful utility moves. keep them on some Pokémon for the purpose of travel and exploration and if i am far enough take them from my core team.
Flash is used in speedruns. I'm not even joking.
brocoli In low level runs maybe, in speedruns certainly not as all it provides can be optained either by optimizing the path (out of battle) or rng (in battle). Getting, teaching and using flash is lost seconds.
A good example of case B would be the way Fallout 4 uses the pipe weapons with their scrappy appearance and high drop rate on common scavengers to demonstrate how regular fire arms are stronger but also more rare and thus harder to find ammo for.
I would like to see this discussion discution arround TCG/CCG and the whole "bad cards are necessary" debate. I think there might be something there sice these tipe of mechanics in a lot of TCG cards.
Man you guys are really knocking it out of the park with the animated segments. It's a shame that we can't get that for every episode, but I get it. Sponsored content, budgets, etc. Damn if it wouldn't be cool to see Extra History get the same treatment, though.
What did you say about Skyward Sword!?
Right? literally every game looks bad next to BotW haha
Skyward sword had some pacing problems but was still fun, plus breath of the wild looks great but I actually hope it's the only open world they make, I miss the old dungeons. Shrines don't really feel like dungeons, the only part that felt like Zelda were the divine beasts. So no. It has more hours of content but it's not better for sure. I actually wish it was shorter since I should have completed a lot more games if it wasn't slowing me down.
Unfortunately, I've seen Skyward Sword trumped up as a 'bad game' by people long after they've even attempted to explain why it's bad. It's just taken for granted now, which pisses me off. It's like they've completely glossed over the truly spectacular parts of the game (which make up the vast majority) and make mountains of the few issues it does admittedly have. Or just go on and on about "Durr hurr moshun kontrolls sux rofl!!!" which is an incredibly stupid argument to make IMHO.
I might be alone in this, but I much prefer games which tell a tightly-woven, purposeful, eloquent, and heartfelt linear story as SS does than a non-linear narrative where it's much more aimless in its goal like BotW does. Someone once said this: "The best stories aren't the ones that go on forever. They're the ones that are worth retelling forever."
Sir Quaffler
This isn't even mentioning just how many mechanics in BotW come directly from Skyward Sword.
Just want to say that, having watched every single released EC video, the "behind the red herring" animation is the best animation I've seen on your channel. Well done.
Can we just mention the adventure zone reference?
Shoutout to the goat animation: 8 hours well spent!
Its Taako from TV!
TAAKO MY BOY
(Also the flaming raging poisoning sword of doom, and MAYBE railsplitter)
There is another use of red herrings, though: emergent play.
Think about using a shitty item for a personal challenge run. Think of, dunno, Dark Souls played totally with a single shitty weapon.
Late to the party, but the third point is actually a form of emergent play.
4:49 ah yes the ankh shield, my favorite accessory
With regards to combinatoric marginal mechanics, a few of FF7's materia combos come to mind, such as Deathblow (a mediocre materia) + Added Cut.
FF7 fans, or just VG fans in general, I bet you can come up with better examples of combinatoric marginal mechanics than the one I gave. Let's here em'
Ganondorf Dragmire Your example isn't bad but, deathblow is not mediocre on its own. It's amazing all by itself, and ridiculously amazing with the right buffs. It's so good that it's the primary way speedruns of FF7 are done (combine a paralyzing cross slash with the attack boost from a death sentence on Tifa's special weapon and you have hyper mode criticals that never miss).
It's only frustrating when you first get it, because the hit rate is so low. If you either use a weapon with a high hit rate, or just level up a lot, it's super good right away.
The first time I ever played FF7, I equipped all my party members with it and a slash-all or a mega-all, and you have crits regularly wiping out entire mobs sometimes in a single turn.
FF7 though, is great at this mechanic. Lots of materia that's somewhat mediocre, but super useful when combined in the right way. Although it's heavily mitigated by the fact that the game really isn't that difficult outside of a few spikes in boss strength at random points in the game.
How about the DoT effects in South Park: The Stick of Truth? The damage ignores armor, and only one enemy in the entire game is immune to all three effects.
I was thinking of Riku from FF X when he talked about Combo Marginal Mechs. When you get her she is weak. Lowest atk stats for a non-mage, really squishy, and her default build is for speed and some other stats that don't bring her up to the level of the others. She just feels like she's there to Steal things and swap in to Use and Al Behd Potion or other items.
However: If you do some research and browsing online you find that her ultimate "Combine" can be totally broken and overpowered from what some of the combinations make/do.
I like the new transitions. Give my compliments to the editor
Useless items are widely used on loot based mechanics for none of this reasons. (i'm not hating on the video, it's great)
useless shit as a result of random loot drops are different because none of those weapons are directly put into the game by the developers, they're just the result of algorithms randomly spitting something out which just happens to be shit.
It's also possible to have loot generation algorithms where most items are at least usable. Borderlands 1 is pretty good example of this. The only "useless" items are common rarity items (specifically common repeater pistols), certain kinds of SMGs, and certain kinds of sniper rifles. Pretty much every other type of item in the game, you can pick it up and use it without instantly having your character lose their DPS and/or survivability.
Edith Collins i said is common, but surely it isn't mandatory
Android 19 if its on the code, blame the devs XD
They're cheap skinner boxes. Soon people will get bored of them and devs will have to move on from them, but probably not anytime soon. People like opening loot boxes until they realize they still don't have any of the stuff they wanted.
I saw the wizard and was like "that looks like taako", then the umbrella came out and it made me so happy. Great video!
It's Taako, you know, from TV
Reminds me immediately of Binding of Isaac. That game has a huge range of items that are either useful in very specific ways or that combine in exciting ways.
Hey, do you see value in "lore"- or "spectacle"-abilities? So things in something like an action rpg or a collectible card game, that are never the best option and if analysed stricktly numerically, they are not very good, but they are full of exitement for the player, just because they are realy cool or cary a realy good message?
A sub scenerio here sometimes being (expecially in collectible card games), that the game would be no fun if they were actually top level competitive, but they are just cool and so a kind of "funny" thing to include.
Also, i would like to hear your view as bard cards / mechaniks as part of a "cycle", were for the balance of the game this specific part of the cycle can not be good, but is just included for the feeling of being complete.
Related to lore, there are mechanics that are present because you would expect them to happen, not because they are useful for anything; NetHack I know is full of those.
There is another type of spectacle: showing off your technology. For example crates leaving behind pickupable+throwable fragments of wood in HL2. They show off the physics engine and that's about it.
Prized Chicken?
Two Marginal Mechanics that stood out for me were from MGS3, the sleeping pill and the cigarette.
The pill looks like a one-time use and it only looks like a "get out of a game over" card, but when you find out it has a REALLY good use in one of the Kobra unit bosses, it becomes a suddenly cool mechanic
The cigarette literally says it'll kill you, but it was so useful as a light source for the cave before The Pain.
I don't think red herrings and marginal mechanics are more useful than harmful, and they need to be tuned to the amount of game literacy that the game requires. I've been playing recently a game called grim dawn, its a diablo-esk game with many different building paths, and when you talked about only realizing a game mechanic is good too far into the game, one stood out to me. Grim dawn has a pet type build into the game, but the game itself only lets you have a pet in only one of the classes, and it takes too long to get a pet, so at the start of the game you dont even consider doing it, but after finishing the game i started a new one and gave it a try, its horrible in the beginning but it scales to be really good in the end, but i only did it to test it in the first place, on how the game would introduce it in the gameplay to see if i could learn something, it only goes to show that there are way better tools at our disposal to make a player learn with a way lower risk and less harm to the experience, because if any player that was starting the game decided to do the pet build, they would be frustrated out of their minds because the early challenges are 10x harder with it.
actually, there is fourth option, i've seen in Morrowind:
for logical completeness and world-building.
In morrowind there is a lot of spells, that is mostly sub-optimal for player character, but it _makes sence_ that they are present in the world, because they might be userful for someone somewhere in the game world. Sometimes, you might find character in in-game book using it.
90% of Jet Force Gemini's weapons are this.
You can beat everything in the game with just the Pistol, Machine gun, Tri-rocket and Homing rocket. Everything else varies between ok to stupid. At least the crazy weapons look awesome, until they run out of ammo with no reliable way to refill them.
A good example of a Combinatoric Marginal Mechanic is the Tem Ray Circuit in some Super Robot Wars games. It reduces all the stats on a unit when equipped, but makes it extremely cheap to repair if the unit gets destroyed. Have it on a unit with a high enough level and/or with enough parts slots to make up for the loss, and can you do stuff like sending out a berserk EVA Unit-1 on a kamikaze run and turn a profit.
I always wanted to make a game like Final Fantasy 3 or 5 (where you can change the party's classes), but build the game around only the traditionally marginal classes/jobs. I want a game where things like Beastmaster and Blue Mage or Gambler were the routes with the most payoff. I really only want this because every game with the "class change" mechanic prioritizes damage (and nothing else), and that gets REALLY boring after the second game.
it requires a game with less focus on damage in the first place. In a game where positioning or status effect have big payoffs, plain damage becomes less interesting.
Another response would be to put less focus on combat in general. In a socially oriented game, you could imagine a charismatic gambler has a powerful class.
Bravely Default is a pretty bad example of where marginalized classes pay off the most. I love BD and BS, but you really aren't given room to play around with interesting strategies until very late in the game. Even then, so many status effects, like poison, sleep, and silence, are completely overshadowed when any given character can move four times in one turn, especially considering you can only use those status effects on random encounter enemies. Why bother with DoT if you can do 32 hits of damage with each hand four times on the first turn? Most class builds tend to center around dealing damage cap the most times per turn, and classes with lots of variety like Vampire, Catmancer, Merchant, and Salve Maker get completely ignored, both early and late game.
Indefatigabilis *used Salve Maker and Vampire in end game because they were easy to use* >.>
It's much easier to use a Phoenix Flight + Minus Strike x3 on 3 party members with Hasten World and Stillness on your support class. At that point, you're literally invincible because of Stillness and can dish out ~120,000 damage per turn whenever Stillness isn't active. The strategy is incredibly basic and repetitive and really can't be challenged by Salve Maker and Vampire, two classes that are much more interesting.
Brock McKelvey same here, though ive never been a huge fan of the combat system in those games, id go for an 'action' rpg, though being as ive never liked that sort of system (turn based no positioning) id like to make a game like that to solve the problems i have with it and see if i can make one i enjoy.
When you mentioned combinatoric marginal mechanics my mind immediately went to CCGs, which have loads of examples (or at least the good ones do). I love making or even just witnessing insane decks built around cards or strats that seem utterly worthless on their own. It's a shame that the best examples of this often wind up banned once the secret's out but that brief moment between when it's a brilliant exploit someone found and a cheap hack that everyone uses is just.... *chef hand kiss*.
omg Taako!!
I spent a while thinking about the Goat-head Gun from early in the video and came up with this for a way it could be useful:
When you fire it, it makes a loud noise. Most enemies just cover their ears when you fire it within ten metres of them, then get right back to attacking you. One type of enemy, however, starts bleeding from their nose and ears instead, severely injured. As silly as it seems at first, it's actually a pretty effective way to thin the hordes of enemies when there's a bunch of this specific type mixed in, and when the level designers throw a bunch of weak enemies at you they often make a third of the group this type. If just a couple of blasts from this thing can clear out a third of the enemies in the room, it's actually pretty useful as long as you don't mind doing some weapon switching in the middle of a fight.
is that Taako from TV?
Is it just me or the illustrations have been top notch quality for the last few episodes ? I mean, I legitimally laughed out loud at some of those visual jokes.
GG whoever is responsible !
That's Scott Dewitt for you.
did no 1 else notice the adventure zone reference in this?
This video reminded me of Transistor a lot, which had a clever way of encouraging players to try out combos with "old" mechanics. In that game, you have abilities that you can either use primarily, or as sub-abilities that add a bonus like leech or lowered AP consumption to the primary one.
But, like the vid mentioned, some of the abilities seem really bad, or their combinatorial utility not immediately obvious.
Here's where I think it's brilliant: there is a sandbox of the game split away from the main world/plot where you can fight in little arenas with no penalty for defeat (and an XP reward if you win). One type of arena gives the player a random set of abilities to survive for an amount of time. It forced me to use combinations of mechanics I'd never have otherwise tried, which helped me immensely when I got stuck in the story and thought an encounter was too hard to beat.
It was probably the most refreshing and stress-free way for me to improve my understanding of the utility of the mechanics, and that little prize of XP hanging there outside the normal game made it tempting to try out anyway if I got stuck, rather than being bullheaded and dying over and over. It actually made the New Game+ mode a breeze, because I was equipped with way more knowledge.
And then there are players like me, who pick bad abilities, knowing full well they're bad abilities, and spend countless hours figuring out what combination of elements make them work, if not necessarily very well. :) I figure, if the devs didn't want me to use this ability, they wouldn't have put it in the game.
4:30 that illustration sequence was really fun in itself ahah
TAAAAAACCCOOOOOO!
Including bosses that have the combination can also be very effective at showing that you should go take a second look at something you initially dismissed.
Hey, It's Taako from TV!
The solution to combination abilities could be to show the player how they can be utilized properly.
It could be argued that by adding in some sort of tutorial, showcasing an ability that is sub-par or mediocre, and then giving the player some type of weapon or secondary ability to show how certain items and skills boost actual abilities as some sort of sub-skill you can learn or obtain, that way the player can be given immediate information about how the game will likely operate, and making it so that in most encounters, if you ignore that entire part of the game, each encounter with enemies and hostiles become difficult, and if you don't ignore that part, the entire game is more of a cake walk because you used what the game offered to the fullest.
What I am trying to say is that by adding incentives to these Red Herrings and making an entire learning curb out of them, these marginal mechanics can become an integral part of a game and offer an extremely unique experience because of this.
You can actually see this a lot in tf2
Enz0 Koh thank you ^^
I like the extra effort in the animation.
Also the splatoon music remix at the end is my favorite.
Uhm, It's me? Taako? From TV?
2:22 meme-fication level overload! :D haha dang, I see this meme everywhere!!!!
nice episode EC, keep it up!!
Honestly this reminds me of Magic the Gathering. When a player starts the game, they may not see the benefit of sacrifice cards, but as they learn the game, they realize the gain and synergies you can make with that effect are actually worth it.
Nether Bat: Hits projectiles back if you click on them.
Springball Gun: Shoots balls that bounce until they hit an enemy or you.
Basically, Combinatory Marginal Mechanic MMORPG/FPS Breakout.
The part of the mechanic staring you in the face made me laugh. It was a very surprise moment I enjoyed immensely! ^_^
My friends and I love making these combinations in D&D! It's part of why 3.5e is our very favorite
Love the adventure zone reference at the top of the episode!
The art for this episode is so good, keep it up!
4:52 The face of Win, right there. Best face ever.
Best combinatoric marginal mechanic I'm aware of is the Unarmed tree for Dungeons of Dreadmor. A lot of players will be drawn to the weapon trees, but the unarmed tree makes you amazing if you dual weild shields.