This is by far the best clear explanation on UA-cam for building a hydronic system. Well done. Looking back is there anything you would change? Not ashamed to say I’m about to copy your model almost completely...
Nice job Mike! Really appreciate your insight. My thought was to buy a panel from Menards and take it to my local Plumbers Supply and tell them to sell me all of these parts and then return it back to Menards and assemble/solder it up myself on a piece of plywood!
Awesome job! this is exactly what I’m getting ready to do... I’m doing a 1600 sqft pole building so if you have any words of advice or things you would do differently please share! Can you share a link to the pumps?
Hey Mike, Quick note on your second pump; the electronics are facing downward and I literally just saw a video from a Technician stating that’s a No-no. Should your pump sweat, that water will go down towards the electronics and potentially damage it. As such, you might wanna revisit that. Hope that helps.
I have the same pump and instructions clearly state that it can be installed the way Mike installed it so should be fine. I do see however where your concern is coming from Ivan and is a good point.
The vlave allows mixing. Flow rates are different because of head pressure and water volume. Primary mixes all the the time and lowers the delta T entering the boiler.
@@bloomingtonmike he likely asked because it is in full off position, no mixing.. I was questioning too as I was going to run a 1 pump for simple 2 zone twin 150' runs in small addition.. and saw no need for one but do see them used all the time.. my manifolds for a 2 run were just over $100.. and both in and out have air purge, wondering if enough or need micro on top of expansion tank... want to be able to add to system and put pex under floor in future, back says next year, so 1 side of house on electric baseboard until then or cranking up addition and hoping can double heated space..
@@bloomingtonmike HI Mike, old thread and comment but thought I would mention this in case others like me are designing the system presently, and found this info and your video very helpful. I did notice however that you installed your (secondary pump) on the left side of the mixing valve. This means your primary (boiler pump) and secondary (System Pump) are on the same circuit. Referring to the Stiebel Eltron system (Hydroshark), you can see the System pump is installed on the right side of the mixing valve. This allows the primary "boiler loop" and the secondary "emitter loop" (pex loop) to be hydraulically separated from each other. This allows the flow rates of each circuit to be set independently for optimum performance. Not sure if putting the pump to the left side of the mixing valve (as you did)does the same. Were you told differently or have any comments on this? Thank you again for great video and explanations.
@@Triggerman2505 I had the same question as I did not understand the need for a second pump - I have seen several systems that only use one pump. Both seem to work. I contacted Hydro-Shark and asked the question. Here is the response: "The reason for a 2-pump setup is to create hydraulic separation using the closely spaced tee. This allows heat to be transferred back into the boiler while also providing heat to the floor. This creates a far more efficient setup as the return temps into the boiler are warmer allowing for the boiler itself to work more efficiently. Using a single pump system certainly works but the main problem is by the time the heat is transferred into the floor and returning back into the boiler it has significantly dropped temperature making the boiler have to work harder to increase the temperature." Note: This is what Mike was talking about in a previous reply when he referred to Delta T. If anyone doesn't want to bother going the DIY route and just getting the pre-built panel - the folks from Hydro-Shark were really helpful.
Echo Smart , I sm jyst deciding what way to go. This was one thought , but also looking at a heat pump hot water tank only using 450 watts only on heat pump mode, im sure this will save so much $$$ a year. Wonder how much this option costs pr month
The primary loop virculates faster than loop going through lines. Creates a warmer path to dump.line wster into as it enters boiler. Reduces how hard the boiler has to work and reduces amperage boiler pulls at the minimal cost of running second pump. So less eear and tear, cheaper, and lower delta change in temp difference. Also provides a backup solurion if sized correctly.
This decision looks strange. I think the seller came up with this scheme in order to sell more goods. This issue of reducing the load can be solved in a completely different way. As I understand it, the valve that is located on the double tee is always closed. I mean, it's not needed. And money has been paid for it. In this order, the arrangement of parts leads to a large cost of money. Thank you for the answer.
Why are there zone valves when they are all on or all off? What about a plain manifold... a piece of copper with 9 fittings for supply... and another one for return ? The water would circulate to everything when the tstat calls for heat and turns on the pumps.
@@bloomingtonmike is that really necessary? I dont know the answer. I DO know in electricity if one connected section of wiring has a higher resistance.... it wont get power. I hope someone else weighs in on this.
I know this is an old comment and there must have been another comment that is no longer there, but are you referring to the little valves on the manifold? Those are balancing valves, to balance the flow between each loop.
Hi Mike, I notice your system does not have a Water Pressure Reducing Valve to decrease the high psi city water in the system. But the return water from the system had a pressure of 23psi, how did that happen, I thought the city water pressure is about 45-65psi. Thank you
@@gschaaf713 i spent $1800 on my pex, manifold, panel parts, and boiler to heat my shed. I don't understand your question honestly. Quotes to do this were 8 grand from folks to install this for me. Even purchasing lesser panels completely built was much more expensive.
@@bloomingtonmike my point was not to say the build was expensive. i was confused about the total cost because you answered initially with 800 and then said plus 1000 in a pex manifold kit. why wouldnt you include the cost of the pex manifold kin in your initial response? i wasnt sure if you were saying the total cost was 1000 or 1800. thats a great price for a system like that. thanks for sharing.
I do, an in floor temperature probe but it is not needed. Ultimately you just care what the room temp is. If its not warm enough, set the thermostat so it still tuns on the pump.
@@ngplumbing8948 up to you if you want to know the floor temp , the cables are only about 15' long though. The temp in your room is all that matters, if not warm enough you want it to keep running. Btw, -8 outside and 40mph wind and 40 degree F in the shop.
hello good system! 1 question how do you feed the system with water? do connect a T or something from the outside supply water? i am not clear how the system feed itself
Thank you for the information! I’m considering the same concept for heating radiant floors in my homes bathrooms and gas is not an option. How often do you flush the system? And do you think you need that powerful of a electric burner? I mean it’s low pressure and your not heating 40-50 degree water. If the water is returning at say 80 degrees and it’s only raising it 10-20 degrees would a less expensive boiler (that uses less electric) still get the job done?
This is the cheapest tankless water heater you can buy, it is not a boiler. BTU requirements of the building dictate the size of the boiler needed to heat it. 1kw equals 3412 BTU so if you need 34120 BTU for your space, you need 10kw worth of boiler and will use 10kw worth of electric. Less power equals less heat
@@Darnellp87 there are cheaper units that only require 1 40A fuse... this unit required 3 fuses... poster could try smaller unit to see if can keep up with demand, once slab at temp and if insulated properly a smaller unit may work for his purposes...
there are also low voltage electric units that are simply wires installed under flooring, typically under tile and inside of mortar that my friends are using, claims cost couple bucks a month to operate..
@@craiggerlach5548 no. The BTU demand of the space dictates the necessary electrical input. This size building could not be heated with a boiler only requiring a 40A fuse. Same rule applies to your liar friends using resistance cables at "a couple bucks". There is no way to get more output from electric resistance heat emitters than goes in.
I'm considering a radiant floor heat system on a new home build in MA. I'm debating whether electric would be more beneficial to us than gas/propane since we'll be going solar. Any thoughts on this? We'd be doing a staple up system using PEX and heat transfer plates between the floor joists in the basement. The house will be very well insulated.
Go with what fuel is cheapest in your area. Electric was my choice as the electric boiler was cheaper and this is a shop not house. Ideally I'd go gas. Natural gas is cheaper to run monthly. Electric is more efficient boiler wise but you are taking a loss doing transfer to plate so you will want the best cost you can get at the end of the month.
@@bloomingtonmike I have gas at my current house, but its not available where we are building the new house. Our options are propane, oil, or electric. Electricity is outrageous in our area. My electric bill this month was $500+. I'm leaning toward propane.
@@randomstuffwithjoe solar may be tough as the boilers are quite taxing at full load. This one is three 220v single phase 40amp circuits. Does not draw that all the time but do a load calc with your poco and solar engineer. Id do propane personally. Best advice ? Insulate like crazy!
Hey Mike, the setup looks great! Curious how it's been working out for you. I'd like to use a tankless electric heater for a single story, 3 zone, 1600sq ft house that I'm building. Compared to your square footage and the large space you are heating, I'd think that this heater would be plenty sufficient for my needs(it's also a full SIP structure so heat loss is minimal). Any feedback would be much appreciated!
If you can run a nat. gas heater do that. Its not cheap to run this one. Plus three 40 amp circuits is pretty large and the wire to run to them is not cheap either. That being said it works great now that I have wall and ceiling insulation. Make sure you r value is high!
Great. Thanks for the reply. R value will be really high and a really tight building envelope with the SIPs structure. I live in PA, not crazy cold winters, but cold enough. I can't get natural gas, but propane is certaintly an option. I was just trying to avoid using an actual water boiler since radiant doesn't need super hot water.
Clint Eastwood it enters just below upper pump and exits just above it. Thats only for filling and purging the initial fill or for any flushing. It is a sealed pressurized setup and does not need a supply line during normal use. It does not loose water/glycol.
At the end of the day this is electric heat. Not the most economical choice in my mind. 49 years in the plumbing trade and have built about 10 infloor systems.
This is by far the best clear explanation on UA-cam for building a hydronic system. Well done. Looking back is there anything you would change? Not ashamed to say I’m about to copy your model almost completely...
It works great. I'd not change a thing.
I wonder if you can provide a schematic and a complete parts list. I would like to build a two zone system? I would highly appreciate it. Thanks
Awesome job! Great Shop!
It looks like your video is 3 yo now. how is the setup holding? May I ask what do you pay to run it (and cost of kWh in your area)?
Its perfect. No changes. Costs me about $100 a month. I insulated well.
@@bloomingtonmikewahoo!!!
Mike - Great video - thank you - I'm trying to find the parts list for this build that you mention at the end - can you please point me to it?
Nice job Mike! Really appreciate your insight. My thought was to buy a panel from Menards and take it to my local Plumbers Supply and tell them to sell me all of these parts and then return it back to Menards and assemble/solder it up myself on a piece of plywood!
Just buy them off the shelf at menards below the panel.
Awesome job! this is exactly what I’m getting ready to do... I’m doing a 1600 sqft pole building so if you have any words of advice or things you would do differently please share! Can you share a link to the pumps?
JB H. Check ebay for latest links. Bought mine there from an authorized reseller!
Hey Mike, Quick note on your second pump; the electronics are facing downward and I literally just saw a video from a Technician stating that’s a No-no. Should your pump sweat, that water will go down towards the electronics and potentially damage it. As such, you might wanna revisit that. Hope that helps.
My pumps have never sweat. Working great today as when I built it. That cover is waterproof/resistant too btw.
I have the same pump and instructions clearly state that it can be installed the way Mike installed it so should be fine. I do see however where your concern is coming from Ivan and is a good point.
What do you figure the electric costs? That is an electric heater?
so both pump are running at the same time? When do you use the purge tee? Im trying understand the reason for (2) pumps??
The vlave allows mixing. Flow rates are different because of head pressure and water volume. Primary mixes all the the time and lowers the delta T entering the boiler.
@@bloomingtonmike he likely asked because it is in full off position, no mixing.. I was questioning too as I was going to run a 1 pump for simple 2 zone twin 150' runs in small addition.. and saw no need for one but do see them used all the time.. my manifolds for a 2 run were just over $100.. and both in and out have air purge, wondering if enough or need micro on top of expansion tank... want to be able to add to system and put pex under floor in future, back says next year, so 1 side of house on electric baseboard until then or cranking up addition and hoping can double heated space..
@@craiggerlach5548 its set at 45° in use.
@@bloomingtonmike HI Mike, old thread and comment but thought I would mention this in case others like me are designing the system presently, and found this info and your video very helpful. I did notice however that you installed your (secondary pump) on the left side of the mixing valve. This means your primary (boiler pump) and secondary (System Pump) are on the same circuit. Referring to the Stiebel Eltron system (Hydroshark), you can see the System pump is installed on the right side of the mixing valve. This allows the primary "boiler loop" and the secondary "emitter loop" (pex loop) to be hydraulically separated from each other. This allows the flow rates of each circuit to be set independently for optimum performance. Not sure if putting the pump to the left side of the mixing valve (as you did)does the same. Were you told differently or have any comments on this? Thank you again for great video and explanations.
@@Triggerman2505 I had the same question as I did not understand the need for a second pump - I have seen several systems that only use one pump. Both seem to work. I contacted Hydro-Shark and asked the question. Here is the response: "The reason for a 2-pump setup is to create hydraulic separation using the closely spaced tee. This allows heat to be transferred back into the boiler while also providing heat to the floor. This creates a far more efficient setup as the return temps into the boiler are warmer allowing for the boiler itself to work more efficiently. Using a single pump system certainly works but the main problem is by the time the heat is transferred into the floor and returning back into the boiler it has significantly dropped temperature making the boiler have to work harder to increase the temperature." Note: This is what Mike was talking about in a previous reply when he referred to Delta T. If anyone doesn't want to bother going the DIY route and just getting the pre-built panel - the folks from Hydro-Shark were really helpful.
Echo Smart , I sm jyst deciding what way to go. This was one thought , but also looking at a heat pump hot water tank only using 450 watts only on heat pump mode, im sure this will save so much $$$ a year. Wonder how much this option costs pr month
wont work on heat pump mode for many reasons. I tried it.
A heat pump water heater probably can't supply enough BTU to support an infloor system.
curious.. you have several years of use.. how much has the power been running to heat your space?
Costs me about $100 a month. I love it.
Hello I don't understand why there is another pump, it looks like it costs one extra.
The primary loop virculates faster than loop going through lines. Creates a warmer path to dump.line wster into as it enters boiler. Reduces how hard the boiler has to work and reduces amperage boiler pulls at the minimal cost of running second pump. So less eear and tear, cheaper, and lower delta change in temp difference. Also provides a backup solurion if sized correctly.
This decision looks strange. I think the seller came up with this scheme in order to sell more goods. This issue of reducing the load can be solved in a completely different way. As I understand it, the valve that is located on the double tee is always closed. I mean, it's not needed. And money has been paid for it. In this order, the arrangement of parts leads to a large cost of money. Thank you for the answer.
@@MasterVeard it is a mixing valve and not closed. It is set at 45 degree during use. It is only clised during filling.
@@bloomingtonmike Thank you!
Why are there zone valves when they are all on or all off? What about a plain manifold... a piece of copper with 9 fittings for supply... and another one for return ? The water would circulate to everything when the tstat calls for heat and turns on the pumps.
@@bloomingtonmike is that really necessary? I dont know the answer. I DO know in electricity if one connected section of wiring has a higher resistance.... it wont get power. I hope someone else weighs in on this.
I know this is an old comment and there must have been another comment that is no longer there, but are you referring to the little valves on the manifold? Those are balancing valves, to balance the flow between each loop.
I wonder if both pumps are identical?
Hi Mike, I notice your system does not have a Water Pressure Reducing Valve to decrease the high psi city water in the system. But the return water from the system had a pressure of 23psi, how did that happen, I thought the city water pressure is about 45-65psi. Thank you
It's not fed with city water - it's fed with glycol from a bucket or pail with a pump on first fill or during a flush.
What did this cost by buying everything separate and doing it yourself?
What do you use the purge t for
Thank You for the video I’m building mine exactly like yours. Do you happen to know what size pressure relief valve you have
You have to use a relief valve set at 30 psi, NOT a standard domestic water heater valve.
Good job, good video sir.
Jim Rr thank you
What's th3 size of the pipe you used under the slab? 1/2 or 3/4?
Ruben R. Roman 1:57 states 1/2” pex
Is that 3/4” pex
Hi, how much did the radiant heat system cost you. Also, is this a closed run system. Thank you
Mike, are you running a glycol mix? If so could you tell me the mix ratio and what your winter weather/Temps are? Thanks bud I appreciate it!
I did 50/50. Math was easy. Its midwest. We get some sub zeros F some days but lots of 20 - 10 degree and lower days.
WHAT WAS THE PRICE ON THE SYSTEM. THANKS.
I built it myself. Less than $800 total.
Plus $1000 in a pex manifold kit.
@@bloomingtonmike what do you mean? $1800 total?
@@gschaaf713 i spent $1800 on my pex, manifold, panel parts, and boiler to heat my shed. I don't understand your question honestly. Quotes to do this were 8 grand from folks to install this for me. Even purchasing lesser panels completely built was much more expensive.
@@bloomingtonmike my point was not to say the build was expensive. i was confused about the total cost because you answered initially with 800 and then said plus 1000 in a pex manifold kit. why wouldnt you include the cost of the pex manifold kin in your initial response? i wasnt sure if you were saying the total cost was 1000 or 1800. thats a great price for a system like that. thanks for sharing.
Do you have any temp sensors? Or something that sends a signal to the thermostat?
I do, an in floor temperature probe but it is not needed. Ultimately you just care what the room temp is. If its not warm enough, set the thermostat so it still tuns on the pump.
@@bloomingtonmike so should i get just a thermostat connected to the switching relay ,, without some probe to the floor?
@@ngplumbing8948 up to you if you want to know the floor temp , the cables are only about 15' long though. The temp in your room is all that matters, if not warm enough you want it to keep running. Btw, -8 outside and 40mph wind and 40 degree F in the shop.
How much did this system cost you when all said and done?
Boiler and panel $800 and pex and manifold was $1k.
what pressure do you have in your system, i cant see on the gauge.. i am building a similar system.. great info.
in video he comments pressure was around 23# at the time for call for heat...
I pressurized to 15psi and it climbs to about 23 when running.
hello good system! 1 question how do you feed the system with water? do connect a T or something from the outside supply water? i am not clear how the system feed itself
Its self contained. No feed. Only connect to a source (bucket of glycol and water) during flushing.
Thank you for the information! I’m considering the same concept for heating radiant floors in my homes bathrooms and gas is not an option. How often do you flush the system? And do you think you need that powerful of a electric burner? I mean it’s low pressure and your not heating 40-50 degree water. If the water is returning at say 80 degrees and it’s only raising it 10-20 degrees would a less expensive boiler (that uses less electric) still get the job done?
This is the cheapest tankless water heater you can buy, it is not a boiler. BTU requirements of the building dictate the size of the boiler needed to heat it. 1kw equals 3412 BTU so if you need 34120 BTU for your space, you need 10kw worth of boiler and will use 10kw worth of electric. Less power equals less heat
@@Darnellp87 there are cheaper units that only require 1 40A fuse... this unit required 3 fuses... poster could try smaller unit to see if can keep up with demand, once slab at temp and if insulated properly a smaller unit may work for his purposes...
there are also low voltage electric units that are simply wires installed under flooring, typically under tile and inside of mortar that my friends are using, claims cost couple bucks a month to operate..
@@craiggerlach5548 no. The BTU demand of the space dictates the necessary electrical input. This size building could not be heated with a boiler only requiring a 40A fuse. Same rule applies to your liar friends using resistance cables at "a couple bucks". There is no way to get more output from electric resistance heat emitters than goes in.
@@Darnellp87 the person who asked question just wanted to heat a bathroom floor, not a building though...
Where did you find the schematic of this setup? Do you have a parts list of each component of this setup?
CJ Timmons copied it from a Menards display. No BOM.
Hey there how much you spend for all
At the time $800. Price is up these days. Pumps are 3x the $100 price I paid. You need to look up current prices for an accurate idea.
I'm considering a radiant floor heat system on a new home build in MA. I'm debating whether electric would be more beneficial to us than gas/propane since we'll be going solar. Any thoughts on this? We'd be doing a staple up system using PEX and heat transfer plates between the floor joists in the basement. The house will be very well insulated.
Go with what fuel is cheapest in your area. Electric was my choice as the electric boiler was cheaper and this is a shop not house. Ideally I'd go gas. Natural gas is cheaper to run monthly. Electric is more efficient boiler wise but you are taking a loss doing transfer to plate so you will want the best cost you can get at the end of the month.
@@bloomingtonmike I have gas at my current house, but its not available where we are building the new house. Our options are propane, oil, or electric. Electricity is outrageous in our area. My electric bill this month was $500+. I'm leaning toward propane.
@@randomstuffwithjoe solar may be tough as the boilers are quite taxing at full load. This one is three 220v single phase 40amp circuits. Does not draw that all the time but do a load calc with your poco and solar engineer. Id do propane personally. Best advice ? Insulate like crazy!
I would like to train on this equipment, how can I get in touch with you. I am will to pay for the training
Just a reg guy and I built this in my shop. Nothing really to train on.
Hey Mike, the setup looks great! Curious how it's been working out for you. I'd like to use a tankless electric heater for a single story, 3 zone, 1600sq ft house that I'm building. Compared to your square footage and the large space you are heating, I'd think that this heater would be plenty sufficient for my needs(it's also a full SIP structure so heat loss is minimal). Any feedback would be much appreciated!
If you can run a nat. gas heater do that. Its not cheap to run this one. Plus three 40 amp circuits is pretty large and the wire to run to them is not cheap either. That being said it works great now that I have wall and ceiling insulation. Make sure you r value is high!
I'd go with a heat pump "chiller"over a boiler - 1/3 the energy for heating. Chiltrix makes an air source one I'm installin for my house.
Great. Thanks for the reply. R value will be really high and a really tight building envelope with the SIPs structure. I live in PA, not crazy cold winters, but cold enough. I can't get natural gas, but propane is certaintly an option. I was just trying to avoid using an actual water boiler since radiant doesn't need super hot water.
Where does water enter and exit the system Mike?
Clint Eastwood it enters just below upper pump and exits just above it. Thats only for filling and purging the initial fill or for any flushing. It is a sealed pressurized setup and does not need a supply line during normal use. It does not loose water/glycol.
bloomingtonmike Thanks man that's a real nice system you got there. Greeting from Saint Paul.
At the end of the day this is electric heat. Not the most economical choice in my mind. 49 years in the plumbing trade and have built about 10 infloor systems.
Dont use one then.