Nice project, im like you , have many interests, got into plumbing recently, installed 2 oil fired boilers to include all the heating units in 2 total home remodels, took the plunge and bought a Milwaukee m12 Propress for all the copper fittings as well as an Milwaukee m18 pex ring presser, unbelievable tools for this kind of work, it was costly, but a thrill to use and your done in an 1/8 of the time, no leaks.
I agree with Dan Smith about a simpler one pump system. My whole house is hydronic with 8 zones and one high head TACO pump. It is simple and has worked for 15 years without issues.I have seen these huge systems with a pump per zone that are expensive and complicated,. Sure if the pump goes you have no heat ,well you keep a backup on hand and you can replace it in a half hour and not have to bleed the whole system when you locate the valves close to the pump.
If you have 8 zones then you have 8 thermostats. To independently control the 8 zones, you must be using zone control valves rather than zone pumps since you only have one pump.
Just stumbled across this. We now live full time in our weekend getaway home. I am upgrading my heat system from a single zone to a 2 zone and updating failing parts. Thanks for the information
I would like to see you do a video on how to wire the thermostat, Taco controller & pumps. Also provide a list of the components that you used and a link to where you purchased them for us DIYers who want to install one ourselves.
At 2:20, what particular plate did you use? Or where did you get them from? All the flange hangers I ever see are flat and dont allow you to put a hex head bolt or nut on the bottom.
I'm a little confused about the 4 fitting "purge valve" and it's function/purpose - by the name I would assume to eliminate air, but what is the mechanics of this valve, I can't find anything online searching.
Great job! -- thanks for the info. No need to apologize for not being a professional: remember, amateurs built the Ark, while "Professionals" built the Titanic.
Interesting critical comments considering this setup mimics the recommended design in the brochures at places like Menards and Home Depot? Maybe these designers are Armatures verses professional grade?
dont listen to these guys, Primary secondary piping is the correct way. also youre pumping away from the expansion tank which is perfect. youve done everything correctly. as far as the future wood boiler tee locations i would go with the secondary loop section that you pointed out. the only thing i would have done differently is put the secondary pump on the supply side.
Not a requirement, but improved operation and boiler protection. In a small system like this the two main reasons would be hydraulic separation, and thermal shock protection. The boiler and the heating loop have different flow rates. there are lots of different reasons for it and boiler manufacturers recommend it.
How big is your shop, and how well does your 7200KW boiler do at heating during really cold weather? What kind of delta-T can you maintain before that little boiler can't keep up? I've tried to run the heat loss calcs on my 30x40' insulated pole barn, and I *think* I need about 15-20K BTU/hr to maintain a 50F delta-T (which is warmer than I expect to need in Nebraska). That's well within the 24K BTU rating for that 7200KW boiler... if I'm doing my math right, which I may not be.
How about a Ben's garage system update? I will be doing one similar, but using 2 x 240V heaters for supply to four pex routes in the floor...leaving room for expansion.
Also looking for this answer. I couldn't find the correct filter and bought a different one. Now it is getting build up and slowing the flow enough to stop my heater from coming on.
@@nickosterhout if it’s getting build up then I think that answers why it is needed, it is there to protect the boiler from whatever is building up in the strainer.
Hello Ben, please give us a feed back on the plastic Y strainer, does it handling well with over 150 deg F, I am looking to put it in with my boiler system, just like to get some feed back from you
Did you get yours filled? Wayne 1/2hp Pump makes short work of it. get three washing machine hoses. Also easy way to bring the system to final pressure.
Great work on your project and your video Ben. Thanks a lot for sharing. I am designing and building a similar garage system here in Canada. I have a single zone of 300-ft of 5/8" PEX already installed in the 4" garage floor slab. I believe you mentioned that two pumps are required so there is enough pressure to feed micro-boiler in the boiler loop to activate it. I am trying to figure out if my system will operate with one circulation pump only. This will save me over $200 dollars. Any thoughts? The pump I ordered is a 3-Speed Grundfos - Model UPS15-58FC - 1/25 hp. Thanks.
@@BenjaminNelsonX That makes sense. Actually I'll be using the 7.2kW Hydro-shark 3, as you did. It appears the best solution for my small install of a 400 square foot work shop where I only have 60 amp service to play with. I just ordered it through Menards and need to pick it up in Michigan over the holidays. I'll take a second look at the hydro shark manual. I'm just at the parts gathering stage of this enjoyable and challenging project. I'm finding it a liitle harder too find some of these parts here in Canada that aren't twice the US cost. I appreciate any and all advice. I feel these microboiler systems have lot of potential to be cost effective heating solutions.
@@ryanofcanada6780 Since you are going to Menards anyways, check out any displays and other information they have on hydronic heat while you are there. The larger Menards stores should have a nice display of some of those components.
I am trying to figure this all out too for heating my shop. In one place I read where if you are using a condensing boiler, if the return water is too cold, it can mess up the proper operation of the boiler. By having a primary pump with the purge valve, it won’t only be cold water entering boiler. I have a tankless condensing water heater for DHW. Only cold water enters it, so I am not sure why it is a no-no for boilers.
Was wondering what value you are using for the pressure relief valve, 30..150..? No where can I find what value people have used for that component....tnx
I have a similar set up put only needed one circulating pump the second one isn’t required as far as I’m aware. Also on the cooler return water loop to the heater, I have a take off to the hot water output side and a ball valve with a temp gauge this allows me to restrict the return flow to both the hot out and the cool in so I use this water to modulate the overall temperature. My circulating pump is either actuated by a thermostat or by a programable timer. The timer is the primary and the thermostat is the back up secondary if the timer fails. This way you are protected against freezing if the timer fails. I live in Canada and I think the city permit guys force you to have a back up do to the frost line being 8 feet below grade 🤷♂️🤷♂️🥶🥶
2 is good, but you need a better controller. You want second pump to run by itself so it can run longer and use all the heat. And then the main pump runs off a auqastat that will cycle the boiler between 130 and 180
I have outfitted my home with Rotex manifolds and piping from Germany. The engineer who designed and installed my system says that 40°C is the max temperature that can be run through our system. Also the "concrete radiating sub floor" was mixed with chopped fiberglass and a latex solution to inhibit cracking due to the thermal expansion. I have a dual heat supply system where my fireplace equipped with a built in boiler will supply the primary heat source while the oil fired boiler is the backup source. This requires the installation of a heat exchanger tank where the two systems are isolated but supply hot water to the hydronic heat in the main home at 40° while supplying 70° water to the radiators in the basement. One you heat up the concrete radiator you leave it running if at a reduced temperature when a lot of hat is not needed. This eliminates reheating the radiating surface which can cost more in the long run.
Great video i am not dyi homeowner and I belive this make work on my basement ... how much all this cost ?? Do I need 110v or220 v... my have install the pump circulator to regular base heater it works fine for 2 days and then nothing so I looking better eays to do it some one suggests to conevet to water heater so heat the baseboard radiators.. I have also the same taco controller connecter the circulator pump so no idea ???
Hi Ben, it seems like there is no Water Pressure Reducing Valve in your system. I read somewhere that the pressure , since is much higher coming from the city, will damage the apparatus over time without a water pressure reducing valve. What is your thought on that. Thank you
Great Job on the system, i just did one as well with the same micro boiler. to everyone that says you don't need two pumps, manufacturer states that a primary/secondary system with a "Y" strainer is required or the warranty on the boiler is void. Just a guess, but i would think that has to do with not having stagnant fluid sitting in the boiler which may cause buildup.
That is correct about the boiler warranty. Another thing nice about the "Y" strainer is that it's clear, so a person can see the fluid in it. That's a nice way to be able to see that the system is full and all the air-bubbles are worked out. Everywhere else is opaque.
I simply used parts that were available off-the-shelf from a major home improvement store. I was able to personally inspect parts before buying them. I don't think there's really any big difference between brands. Being able to check out parts before purchase, because they were in front of me, instead of for example mail-order, I was confident that I was getting relatively good quality.
If you look on the middle-left of the system, you will see a set of shut-off valves and hose connection points. Those are used to fill the system. The system was filled with a pump and hose connected there, drawing the glycol from a 5-gallon bucket. The pump is also what's used for originally pressurizing the system.
@@geraldsosontovich2124 I just used a very simple thermostat that runs on a pair of batteries. It has a pair of low voltage wires that runs to the switching relay for the pumps. The thermostat sends low voltage to the relay, turning it on. AC power then runs to the pumps, powering them up. The heater is activated by an internal flow sensor and the heat kicks on once the glycol is flowing. For a really low-tech ON/OFF. A light switch can instead be used to turn on/off a low-voltage AC signal to the switching relay.
The electric heater is a style where you set the OUTPUT temperature at the heater. As long as the temperature is above that, the fluid will pass right through without being heated. So yes, a wood-heat source could be added with the electric heater still in series and it would all work just fine.
Great Video! Do you have a parts list for this? Trying to do something similar and already have the floor piping in with manifold, so now it's time to do all of the plumbing for the tankless propane boiler I'm going to get. The issue for me is that I don't know the exact names of each of the components even though I visually know what they are and if I could go to a parts bin I could pick them out. (that would result in many trips to the big box which would be bad) Thanks!
Hi James, No, sorry, I don't have a parts list. Basically, I read a college text book on hydronic heat, then I went to the big box home improvement store, looked at a pre-built product they had, bought the parts for it, and assembled it myself. I modeled that after this hydronic heat panel: www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/radiant-heat-control-panels/hydro-smart-trade-1-zone-low-temp-integrator-panel/hsps120lt/p-1444433734726-c-8521.htm?tid=922881261078849570&ipos=3 By doing the work myself, I only had to pay for parts, not labor, saving some money. The heater I used was a Hydro-Shark 3 7kW electric heater, which I bought used. www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/radiant-heat-boilers/stiebel-eltron-hydro-shark-reg-electric-microboiler/sh3-07/p-1444433731813-c-8519.htm?tid=-4632102269778309964&ipos=1
while you got it like it is. you should put in some "wells" so you can put some probs and set up a dataloger. next to the other 2 thermometers. good stuff Ben. thanks for the over view! I recommend getting some vacume tube thermal generators. there expensive but they work really well. even in winter. direct heat output from the sun. ~Russ
I think I'm okay with just placing the sensors directly against the copper pipe, and taping over them. Alternatively, the thermometers just pop right out, and I could put sensors in their place.
Hi Ben, many thanks for your instructive videos. Thanks to you, I've decided to use hydronic heating for my new garage and I've changed the steel profile for the roof so I can use S-5 clamps for the solar panels (and avoid punching a bunch of holes in a brand new roof!). I'm still studying options for the boiler and I'm wondering if you've compiled the power usage (in KWhr) of your boiler as a function of average outside temperatures. If this is already posted somewhere, please point me to the link. Thanks again.
I've been very happy with the metal roof and S-5! clamps. Works great! For the in-floor heat, make sure to insulate your garage well, including under the slab. I do NOT have data tracking power use vs outside temperature, but I do have an old-school utility meter which I run my boiler through so that I can track the power it uses. I am NOT necessarily recommending electric as a heat source. In my area, natural gas is the most economical way to heat, but I don't have a gas line to the garage and want to get away from fossil fuels anyways. I might still rig up a wood fired boiler to the garage. The town yard waste site is just down the street from me, and I'd be able to get all the free wood I want from there. You CAN estimate power usage from area/volume, insulation factor, and average temperatures. There's even on-line calculators for that sort of thing to at least get a "ball-park" number.
SupaTrending Daily It won’t be inefficient if it is too small. I may be ineffective at low temps, but it will be very efficient as it will run at high output most of the time.
SupaTrending Daily It depends on the details, but in general the answer is yes. A 90,000 BTU boiler will be larger and have greater thermal mass. You are heating both the boiler and the water. A larger boiler means you are heating a larger boiler mass in addition to the water mass so, yes, generally it will take more total energy if you are using a larger boiler.
Fossil fuels what is it 1996? Where do you think the electricity comes from? Natural gas is amazing on about every single level. Cheep abundant minimum carbon foot print
The electricity comes from the solar panels on the roof. Natural gas is great for heating, but it would also had been considerable work and expense to run natural gas piping to this building. Since I already have electricity in the garage and can literally make my own, that seemed like a good choice. I've also added some solar thermal heating.
Man. It's definitely not '96. It's 2019. It's time to eliminate all fossil fuel. Fracking is incredibly dangerous to ground water systems and it doesn't address the issues with carbon dioxide.
I’m actually in the trades. Commercial/Industrial HVAC electrician. I work on huge air handlers, that utilize hydronic heating and cooling circuits to condition the air flowing through the air handlers. I work directly with union fitters, on these systems. You’ve done a great job. I’ve helped install several of those fractional Hp pumps also... I’m wondering if you could do a video showing the details of each component that you have there?.. it would help tremendously!.. thanks!... keep up the great work!...just a thought. Have you considered hydro solar panels as your hot water source?.. then the electric as a backup.
At Menard’s, they carry the Hydro-Smart components. Hydro-Smart is located in Minnesota. I bought the parts for the single zone panel HSPS120LT for around $1,000. Menard’s sell it for $1600. The propane boiler was $1300 and took 2 weeks to arrive. If you go forward, you can order Nibco valves with the hose ports from Zoro on the internet. I was impressed with their service.
That is a closed pressured system that you needs a boiler pressure regulated with a back flow protector. A wood boiler is a non pressured system. I would recommend a plate heat exchanger to transfer wood boilers hot water to the pressured floor heat system. Most people don't have enough space on there electric panel to add a electric boiler that could require 80 amps.
Yes, a heat exchanger was exactly what I've been thinking if I added a wood-fired boiler. The electric micro-boiler I've been using so far is 7200 watts, or 30A. The garage has a 100A breaker panel and now includes a solar array and several electric car charging stations.
7,200 watts is about 25,000 btu. I typically figure about 45 btu per sq foot is needed from a boiler. If you did not insulate under the concrete you need to figure even more btu's.
Yes, there are ice-melt systems that are designed very similar to this. However, to me, I would just see it as a tremendous waste of energy! Like Dad always said "What are you doing? Trying to heat the entire outdoors!?"
The nice thing about your set up is that you can easily add solar thermal panels to the system flowing the water thru your electric heater along with a heat storage tank. Using the panels and a tank you likely will totally stop ever having that electric heater energize
Unfortunately, my yard is shaded, especially in the winter when heat is needed most, but YES, the great thing about a system like this is that a person can add heat to the system in a number of different ways! I plan to do some experimenting with a wood-burning boiler to heat with bio-mass. An insulated water tank really isn't needed either, as the floor itself is a large thermal mass, capable of absorbing a large amount of heat and releasing it slowly over time.
@@BenjaminNelsonX Would think that most of the yard would be less shaded in winter than summer unless you have nothing but ever greens grins. As to the storage tank my thinking is that it allows for a buffering tank so you are not having cycling of the heater. Since you do have the little electric dont forget to descale it annually.
Although I don't have any good place for solar hot water panels, I did modify one of the garage doors to become a solar collector on sunny winter days. See the write-up at: www.instructables.com/id/Passive-Solar-Garage-Door/
I’m sure because this video was posted so long ago you probably won’t see it. But I have question. I have the same system in my shop with the very same micro boiler Hydro Shark 3 and something went wrong with my boiler. It’s feeding 120v back into the electrical system in the shop. Outlets all started testing positive neutral reverse. As soon as I cut power to boiler everything tests correct. With power to the system when I touch the copper pipes I get shocked. I’m going to replace the boiler. I have no idea how to add glycol back to the system and bleed out the air. I can’t find any information on how to do this. I live in Wisconsin and it’s about to get very cold. Can you please help with answering how to add the glycol and bleed the system??
Hi Kevin, sorry to hear about your boiler! After you replace it, just follow the typical directions for filling a system like this. There are a lot of videos about filling and bleeding the air from a system on SOLAR Hot Water setups. Take a look at one of those. I've also found that Callefi has a lot of great videos in general on hydronic heating. ua-cam.com/video/raHCtObGOhY/v-deo.html
You could have reduced cost by only using one pump since its only a one zone system. Also could have used a 110v thermostat strait to the pump eliminating the toco controller as well. This set up would also reduce the demand on your solar set up by not running two pumps and a 24v transformer in the toco controller. Great job by the way. Just my 2 cents. Cheers
@@constantreader7944 I just purchased a house and needed the boiler replaced. I am just like BenjaminNelson and knew nothing about boilers. I purchased the boiler new for 1820.00 USD after getting a quote of 8K install. I spent 3 days researching online how boilers worked, what made them tic and how to install them. Then had a grocery list of parts needed of 700.00 USD for a 2 zone system on a 2 story house with basement. I did all the work myself not knowing anything. Now, the old system only has 1 pump and I will continue with 1 pump. I will convert the 2 zone system to a 4 zone system because the baseboard runs are very long per floor. FYI 1 pump is all you need even for a 6 zone setup. My 1 pump is on the return line. any more than that is over kill and a waist of time/money.
I have couple of questions. How do you make sure you have enough fluid in the system? It might evaporates through the air remover part and the heater can get damaged when heating empty spots. Why is the expansion tank facing down? Doesn't that cause the fluid lose? And last question, can this system heat the panel radiators instead of floor tubing?
No, the anti-freeze doesn't evaporate. The air-bubble remover actually PREVENTS void in the fluid that could cause issues with cavitation or heating. The expansion tank is facing down because that's how it is in the installation manual for the tank and how it was on the professional system that I more or less copied (but paid significantly less for.) Yes, a similar system could heat radiant panels, although it would likely have to be running at a higher temperature. Temperature times surface area is what transfers total heat. Because the floor is so big, the system can be run with very low temperatures. It's more of a "warm water system" than a "hot water system". I typically run the electric heater at around 100 degrees fahrenheit.
Very nice set up. You may want to use a 40 gal water heater whether you go with an outside boiler, or solar, or not. Energy storage is key to energy efficiency. Also, if hydro is expensive at certain times, you can run a timer.
A water tank isn't needed for storage. The water tank would only hold 8.34 pounds of water times 40 gallons = a mass of about 334 pounds vs 24 tons of concrete that the garage floor is made from. Heating the mass of the floor itself is medium of storage.
I guess what I was saying is that, with a temperature differential of 50 degrees (100-150), a forty gallon water heater will store 16,700 BTUs of energy. 25,020 BTUs for a 60 gallon WH. That is a controlled storage of energy, where as the mass floor storage is already released.
I'd love to see an update video on your installed system. I found the heater you are using on the Home Depot website and see it is a 40 or 50 amp heater. How has the heater worked for you? Did you end up using glycol? How was the filling of the system?
The heater has worked well. I used glycol. Filling the system was a little bit of a pain because I didn't really have the right type of pump. A pump that self primes and can give you the right pressure for you system is the right way to go.
I appreciate you documenting your process and thoughts. I do have a question for you regarding the primary and secondary loop. It looks like your primary loop causes a back flow in your secondary if the secondary is not in operation. Is that efficient? is there a valve I didn't see? Thank you.
Both pumps have integral check valves built in. There shouldn't be any back flow. I'm learning as I go too, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some odd thing like that which I didn't catch. I did pretty much just duplicated the pre-made "Radiant Panel" at the store, so I hope I have this all right. At the point of this writing, (March 6, 2017) I don't have the panel yet hooked up, as I'm still working on the general garage construction. Once my wall interiors are finished, I will hook up the radiant, and troubleshoot it from there if needed.
I am a boiler mechanic for 30 years. Not sure why you wouldn't just use electric heat? Changing the energy to water is a loss of efficency . Elect heat is 100% already.
The invention of PEX tubing revolutionized radiant infloor heating in concrete slabs. By heating the slab not only do you have warm feet, but heat emanating from the floor reduces cold air stratification near the floor. I am not familiar with any cost effective way of placing electric heating cables in a concrete slab. Sidebar story: There is a welding fabrication company in SW Wisconsin. They originally had propane space heaters. In the winter, even with insulated shoes and layers of clothing, it was difficult to stay warm. Every time the overhead doors opened to bring equipment and supplies in and out, it would take 1/2 hour or more before the space heater caught up again. They bought some newer, heavier equipment which required thicker concrete concrete floors. When they poured the new floors they also installed PEX loops in the slab. The difference in comfort was night and day. Now when they open the overhead doors, the recovery is not instantaneous but it is just a few minutes. Now they no longer wear insulated shoes and boots to keep warm. The floor is warm so all the equipment and steel stay warm since everything is sitting on a heated floor.
@@dougshakell8003 mass. As he noted earlier, baseboard or other electric heat would heat the air in his shop. It would dump it the moment a door was opened in cold weather. In floor electric in a garage slab seems a bit risky to me.
I Rich. I live in south-eastern Wisconsin. Heat pumps are good technology, but are not the magic bullet of heating. They only work well down to a certain temperature, and you still need backup heat after that. The hydronic system has other advantages, such as the fact that I could plumb an outdoor wood-burning furnace into it. Another advantage of the hydronic is how the thermal mass of the concrete (which has insulation below and around it) helps keep the space at a steady temperature.
hi ben. I have a hydronic water heating system and there's a hot water leak running from one of the copper pipes to the outside of the house. some infers I've called are not familiar with this system at all. any advice? i have a video of this leak.
I guess I'd say to call a plumber or HVAC person who specializes in that kind of work. My garage hydronic heat system is the ONLY experience I have working on this sort of thing, and I wasn't running any copper pipes outside the building. Sorry I can't be more of a help.
There is no need for a mixing valve. It's a closed-loop system. The electric boiler only heats the water to whatever temperature I set it to, usually about 100 degrees Fahrenheit. With the entire floor of the garage being the heat source, only very low boiler temperatures are required.
The mixing valve has the 2nd intake from the return of the loop. The speed of the pump influence the temperature as well as the power of the heater. The mixing valve compensates this two maintaining the temperature at the set value. In Europe the hydronic floor started to be use in residential since 35 years. Now it is mandatory in almost all new constructions. A mixing valve is always used in the system to avoid stress on the materials of the floor.
@@1968matrix The output temperature of the heater is variable and automatic. It provides a steady low output, no matter what the return temperature is.
A mixing valve should be added to the system especially with a wood fired boiler for temp. control. I am having a 10 kw solar system installed for my house and detached 1500 sf. garage in Colorado ( 300 days of intense sunshine) to augment LP Tagaki TKJR on demand water heaters using a copper plate heat exchangers for the infloor heat. Keep up the good work! PS. house and garage also have wood stoves.
At this point, the micro-boiler has complete temperature control, and I only run that at about 100 degrees F. Yes, with a wood boiler I would absolutely want to add some additional temperature controls.
I purchased all the components through MENARDS, a big-box home improvement store in my area. See if you can find a local vendor in your area. Otherwise, nearly everything is available by mail order nowadays. www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/hydronic-radiant-heat/c-8517.htm
Um.... That's sort of the point of any heating system. Your house is just a big box that you heat in the winter. A house is a much larger box than an oven, so no, it's not going to be 400 degrees. I originally just designed it with an ON/OFF switch, and would just run it maybe on a Friday night for working in the garage over the weekend. It just raises the temperature. I'd usually shoot for about 50 degrees, as that's very comfortable for working in a jacket AND FAR BETTER than a 10 degree outdoor temperature! The mass of the concrete absorbs the heat created and slowly releases it over a longer time. This gives the advantage of a stable temperature.
Hi Joe. Yes! This same type of system could be used with baseboard radiators. However, you should keep in mind that those systems typically require HIGHER water temperatures than using pex tubing embedded in concrete. Lower water temperatures mean less electricity (or other power source) to heat the area. Because my ENTIRE floor is a heater, it is a large area at a low temperature. With baseboard heaters, you have a much smaller area, so you need hotter water temperatures and more flow to transfer the same amount of heat. If you are interested in designing and building your own baseboard hot-water system, go for it, but make sure you do your math calculations first!
Ok so I would have to use an actual boiler then not a tankless? I have no heat in my house and I'm being quoted over 10k for a furance and 8k for mini splits so I think this will be my cheapest option.
If you are adding heat to a house that never had one, there are a lot of variables to consider. For a smaller place in a relatively moderate climate (which I assume you are if you were getting by WITHOUT heat before) mini-split heat pumps are probably a good choice. They also give you the option to cool as well. If you are specifically interested in DIY hydronic heating, take a look at Mr. Money Mustache's DIY Hydronic setup. www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/02/16/the-radiant-heat-experiment/
Hey. Maybe wrap the pipes & some components, with insulation, to keep heat in the system, until where you want it to go out? Have the heat stay in the water, farther & farther away from the source. And even insulate the return lines, so the heater doesn't have to work as hard, to maintain a temperature. Saving energy. This is also a great idea for a home, so a boiler, doesn't have to work as hard, to bring hot enough water to an upstairs, or far away bathroom or kitchen.
In general, insulating pipes is a good thing. In this case, all of these components are IN the room they are heating. Any heat "Lost" just goes to air heating the space the floor is heating as well.
BenjaminNelson I understand. Thank you for all of the work you do. I'm building a hybrid motorcycle soon, and your videos about electric motorcycles, are a big help. I know you want to swear off burning fuels, but my solution to the range issue of batteries, is to use a small engine, meant for rc planes, to recharge the batteries with alternators or generators, and also directly power the motor controller & motor. With that setup, I can continue on a long adventure or continue delivering things, even when the batteries are too low. And I don't plan on always using gasoline. I want to make my own fuel, like moonshine.
BenjaminNelson Sorry. I meant a plug in hybrid motorcycle. And I will use built in hobby chargers to charge all the batteries to 85%, to get the most life out of them, and a DC to AC converter to power the chargers, and other things. My bike will be like a mobile generator, not only for the batteries, but for camping & emergencies.
BenjaminNelson BenjaminNelson ...Ben?...I understand if you hate me for burning any fuel. But I'm curious what you think of my set up. And not only am I using hobby chargers, to make sure I don't overcharge my batteries, but circuits to warn me, then disconnect the batteries, if they get too low. No BMS.
A hybrid motorcycle would be a great project. It's quite a bit of gear to fit in a motorcycle though. I always thought it would work best on either a trike or a motorcycle with a side-car. I would avoid trying to create AC power, only to convert back to DC power. Many battery chargers and power supplies actually can run on either AC OR DC as a source. The fewer times you have to change energy from one form to another, the fewer losses there are.
The boiler is flow-activated. In a system designed to use it, it requires one pump for the boiler, the other for circulating to the Pex. I also allows for testing the system and the boiler before being connected to the Pex. hydro-smart.com/Images/Low%20Res%20HydroShark3_InstallManual.pdf
You could still provide flow through the boiler from one pump seeing it is only a one loop/zone system 2 pumps is overkill. That being said, im not familiar with electric boilers only Gas, not sure what the flow rate is needed to activate them. Cheers
Hi Ben, I built a system similar to yours. I seen some rust infiltrating my system (i have cast iron circulators) and am concerned it will damage the tankless boiler. Did you have a similar issue? If so, how did you correct it? Did you use any corrosion inhibitors? If so, any recommendations?
Hi Zachary. My system uses anti-freeze as the circulating fluid. The fluid I purchased (Cryo-Tek Blue) is specifically marketed for hydronic heating systems and does have corrosion inhibitors in it. Care must be taken with systems that use straight-up water. At my house, we have very high iron and calcium in our well water. Because of that, an "on-demand" water heater for our household hot water would probably be a bad idea. I'm sure that heater would gunk up with minerals in no time. For a closed-loop hydronic heating system using commercially purchased Propylene Glycol with corrosion inhibitors, I don't think it will be a problem. If you are using an open-loop water-based system, clean water and non-ferrous pumps are the way to go. I also have a Wye-strainer in my system before the heater, but I have no idea how small of particular matter that will screen out. Always good to have filters BEFORE heaters and pumps though!
Make sure the PEX you are using is oxygen barrier PEX for hydronic systems, it is NOT the same PEX used for fresh water piping. Cast Iron circulators, cast iron or steel boilers and any other ferrous metal in the system will rust due to oxygen migration into the closed loop. This is a very common mistake when people build their own radiant floor systems.
I would check that the pump you are using to push water through your heater supplies enough pressure. I worked in a builders merchants one time and the boss tried using a heating pump for a fountain. It did not work because the actual pump is only designed to assist the water to circulate around the system.
These pumps are specifically "circulator pumps" designed for these types of systems. One thing I did was to make sure to keep each loop of Pex piping less than 250 feet, to help keep the resistance to flow low. Pumps for fountains and pumps for circulating hydronic heat are two very different things.
The solar array has a 6.24kW faceplate value. I have a 100 amp electrical service in the garage. I have electric baseboard heaters upstairs, and a 7kW demand heater for the hydronic. (But I use the heat sparingly.) I also have two electric car charging stations, one for 30A, one for 16A. I can weld or do pretty much anything else I could ever possibly want to do in my garage that uses a lot of power!
Overall, I've been very happy with the system. I will say that heating with electric has the potential to be expensive. On the other hand, I already heavy electrical running to the garage, but no natural gas, propane, etc. and that saved me from having to install any of the expensive infrastructure. I'm still planning to experiment with a wood-fired boiler (which was part of my plan from the start.) The thick concrete slab does a great job of moderating temperatures. Just having good insulation in the garage, along with the mass of the concrete (and the fact that the concrete is insulated) really helps with temperature control in the garage, even WITHOUT heating. Another side benefit is that the garage has been very cool in the summer. I've also been very happy with the Passive Solar Garage Door. It lets the light (and heat!) in and the insulated concrete absorbs and releases the heat. ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
Price is probably a big factor there, and they work badly below -4C. If you just want warm water to heat a building it's hard to get around something simple as vacuum pipes. A simple heat exchanger could be inserted inline and the electric would do the rest. For that matter, a simple 1 element (1.2x1 meter) vacuum tube setup will likely provide more then enough heat for the building. You can even mount these vertically, although a 45 degree angle is the norm. It does open a can of worms to have proper venting in case of overheating. Although a simple shade for the summer would suffice.
I don't agree with you about the price, because Ben is clever enough to buy a ductless mini air condition and modify it like others to have a heat pump that takes heat from the air or a near by pond or so to heat the garage. Having said that, I live in Cairo Egypt so -4C is not actual here. And It is not always -4C or less where Ben lives. But yes you are right heat pumps have a limit. What made me write was the 7kW that Ben mentioned. The Coefficient of Performance (COP) of most ductless split air conditions, is above 3.5. Mine is 4.5 and as I said I live in Cairo Egypt. So if Ben uses the 7 kW of his heater in a heat pump he will get a lot back from moving the heat from even -4C to warm the floor of his garage. If we count on a COP of 2 to compensate for the -4C or below then we get 14 kW instead of 7 kW. It is also possible to get a better COP at lower temperatures. But I want to say Bravo to Ben because he will get the 7 kW back from his solar production from the grid. What I also saw was that he can easily modify or add the heat pump later. Then he can reduce the amount of kWh that he will get back from the grid and maybe charge the car instead for warming the garage. Or maybe help in warming the house. At any rate being efficient always helps. A heat pump might not be enough but it will help.
Geothermal heat pumps get VERY expensive when you add in the cost of digging the wells. I also have very limited space in my yard to dig those wells. Heat pumps can only go to so low of a temperature before their efficiency drops, especially the air-to-air or "mini-split" types. I'd love to do some experimenting in the future. There are small window unit air conditioners that also act as heat pumps. I'd love to take one of those apart sometime.
I bought my Samsung 1 ton inverter ac. It heats and cools. Air to Air as you said. I am very impressed with it Ben. It runs on the solar panels that I have. It takes between 350W to 550W. The max it can do is 1000W. I paid about $500 for it. I am sure you can get it cheaper in the US. Maybe a used one. But I understand you that digging etc. is a bit too much especially when you have a grid tied system so you can always claim back some electricity from the electricity you gave to the grid. We are in two completely different climates you see. So I am sorry if my comments are not applicable to you. At any rate well done.
Why do you have two pumps? The only time you need hot water is when your system calls for it, it’s no need to be just circulating hot water through your loop when your in floor heating is not calling for it!
This particular system design uses two pumps. Both pumps work together for the "On Demand" heater to function the way it's designed to. It does NOT circulate water through the loop when the heater isn't running.
Many of the components needed soldered connections anyways, so for PEX, I would have needed to solder something in AND then have an adapter to PEX. I did use "push-connect" connectors a fair amount on this project. Those do cost more than a soldered connection, but work really well, are removable, and they also make it easy to still rotate the pipe. That was handy for a few spots where the pipes had to be on slightly odd angles.
The garage is 27 feet wide by 29 feet deep. I don't have a parts list. I simply duplicated a system I saw on display at a big box home improvement store. It is similar to this one: hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/HYDRO005/Prod_Tech_Spec/HSPS120LTSpecSheet.pdf The linked file lists main components.
I've seen it said that these have to operate all the time basically, because warming water to warm a lot of concrete takes a long time so can't shut it down then expect a toasty space a 1/2 hour later. If you finished, do you shut it down and turn it on or leave it on for long periods?
A big piece of concrete has a LOT of thermal mass. That means that it's both very slow to heat up and slow to cool down. The upside of that is if I open my garage doors, all the heat doesn't just instantly leave. The downside it that it takes a long time to warm up. It's a great system for a steady temperature. My idea was that I want my garage warmer than the ambient temperature all winter, so, I could just set the heating system to go, but at a very low temperature. I would be much warmer than working outside, but would still be wearing a jacket, etc. So far, If I knew I would be doing a lot of work in the garage (on a three-day weekend, etc.) I might turn the heat on or up at least a day or two ahead of time. The temperature does change slowly. That's both an advantage and disadvange. So far, it seems to be working pretty well.
Keep in mind too that it's not as though the heater is running full blast continuously. On this style of micro-boiler, it just heats the fluid to whatever temperature you set it too. So it may be adding a little or a lot of heat to the fluid depending on what the incoming temperature is. I also now have a very basic ($20) thermostat on the system. I can set it to as low as 40 degrees F. That simply turns on the pump (and thus the boiler, because that's activated by flow) when temperature gets below the set temperature. Right now, it's just reading air temperature. I did intall an empty piece of PEX hose when I poured the concrete. That allows me to fish a floor temperature sensor down into the concrete at some point in the future if I would like to.
I agree with your ideas, keep it at a temp that knocks of the chill in a garage due to the otherwise massively very cold concrete so yeah still wear a jacket but at least your fingers and toes aren't going numb like when I attempt to work in my garage during the deep winter. It is cost effective too so good job.
My father has a floor heating/cooling system, all i can say is that it's great to heat the house evenly but it has a lot of thermic "inertia" (i.e : it takes a long time to heat up and cool down because of all the heat that the concrete slab will contain)
That's what I've always heard too - that the thermal mass of the concrete means it heats and cools slowly. That's a big part of what I wanted. If I open a garage door to pull my car in or out, that's a huge amount of heated air leaving the building! However, if its the FLOOR that's warm, only a small amount of its mass is needed to reheat the air. I plan to only heat the garage to a relatively low temperature, perhaps 50 degrees F. Frankly, anything above freezing is pretty luxurious in the winter. That's plenty warm for a workshop, when I'll also have good lighting and be out of the wind.
Overall, the system works very well. I ended up putting in a basic ($20) thermostat on it to automate the ON/OFF cycles. There's a few times this winter when I knew I'd be working in my garage all weekend, so a day ahead of time, I'd turn up the heat. Very nice working in a heated garage. Even 50 degrees is amazing if it's only 10 degrees outside. For the most part, I've left it on with the thermostat set to 40 degrees (F). That prevents it from hitting freezing temperatures, but uses significantly less energy than if it was set to 50, 60, or 70 degrees. At 70, it would be about like me heating a second house! ($$$) I also recent started experimenting with some passive solar, building a glass door that goes over my insulated overhead door. On a sunny winter day, I can let in the light and heat, but close the door at night and cloudy days to hold the heat inside. The hydronic system is also set up so that I could potentially connect an outdoor wood-burning boiler to it. ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
This also adds the ability for his wood fired boiler. That being said I still would use a natural gas heater they are so much cheaper to run, and if and when I had that much solar capacity add solar to the system
Alex Fournier electricity is almost 100 percent efficient if you start at the coal plant and measure all the way to your heater yiu find a drastically different story
It works well. I run it just as I need it, at night, when electric rates are cheap. I also have photovoltaic solar, so I can just turn sun into heat as well.
Ben. What are you doing??? Heating a house with electric is the fastest way to drain a wallet. It also uses more carbon per KWH than directly from gas. Get a big wood stove.
Not true. Wood boiler is very expensive and needs a back up system anyway. For a garage that size his electric bill is likely $1k a year. A wood boiler is 5-10k and maintenance & reliably issues. Propane is not much cheaper and you need major...wife stopping me.
The roof of the building is covered in photovoltaic solar panels which make electricity. It's a freestanding building with no natural gas or LP anyways. Learn more about it at: 300mpg.org/bens-solar-garage/
Where I am cost is 11 cents kWh. Canadian. His 7 kw heater probably uses less than $1500 a year. For me cheaper than propane. And Wood- we’ll check $ for set up up to $10k.
I've now had this system running for the end of one winter and the entire next winter. I kept the system on with a simple thermostat set to the lowest setting (40℉.) The garage never got below freezing all winter. (In my area, temperatures are below freezing December through March, and we are usually in the single digits in January. I can honestly say that a thick, insulated concrete slab is an amazing thing. In the winter, the heat just stays inside, even if I have to open and close the garage door. Likewise, in the summer, it can be 20 degrees cooler and lower humidity inside my garage than outside. I also built a passive solar garage door. When the sun is low in the sky in the winter, it shines in on the concrete floor, warming it. www.instructables.com/id/Passive-Solar-Garage-Door/ ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
Nice project, im like you , have many interests, got into plumbing recently, installed 2 oil fired boilers to include all the heating units in 2 total home remodels, took the plunge and bought a Milwaukee m12 Propress for all the copper fittings as well as an Milwaukee m18 pex ring presser, unbelievable tools for this kind of work, it was costly, but a thrill to use and your done in an 1/8 of the time, no leaks.
Great job! I live in the greater Milwaukee area. We've love Milwaukee Electric Tool ever since the Sawzall!
hi Ben! What is the purpose of the purge valve ? isn't it cheaper to use 2 Tee's?
I agree with Dan Smith about a simpler one pump system. My whole house is hydronic with 8 zones and one high head TACO pump. It is simple and has worked for 15 years without issues.I have seen these huge systems with a pump per zone that are expensive and complicated,. Sure if the pump goes you have no heat ,well you keep a backup on hand and you can replace it in a half hour and not have to bleed the whole system when you locate the valves close to the pump.
Yes, just save other pump for backup.
If you have 8 zones then you have 8 thermostats. To independently control the 8 zones, you must be using zone control valves rather than zone pumps since you only have one pump.
8 zones? Or 8 loops?
soldering looks better than a lot of "pro" stuff I've seen. nice work.
Just stumbled across this. We now live full time in our weekend getaway home. I am upgrading my heat system from a single zone to a 2 zone and updating failing parts. Thanks for the information
I would like to see you do a video on how to wire the thermostat, Taco controller & pumps. Also provide a list of the components that you used and a link to where you purchased them for us DIYers who want to install one ourselves.
At 2:20, what particular plate did you use? Or where did you get them from? All the flange hangers I ever see are flat and dont allow you to put a hex head bolt or nut on the bottom.
I don't remember the exact name of the part. They were available at Menards, a big-box home improvement store in the midwest.
I'm a little confused about the 4 fitting "purge valve" and it's function/purpose - by the name I would assume to eliminate air, but what is the mechanics of this valve, I can't find anything online searching.
I don't understand what that dual T "purge valve" is for, what are you purging?
Great job! -- thanks for the info. No need to apologize for not being a professional: remember, amateurs built the Ark, while "Professionals" built the Titanic.
Interesting critical comments considering this setup mimics the recommended design in the brochures at places like Menards and Home Depot? Maybe these designers are Armatures verses professional grade?
I meant to say Armature
I am certainly a amateur at spelling...
Hi, I'm interested to know if the PVC Y-Strainer is reliable after some years?
Thanks and nice video
dont listen to these guys, Primary secondary piping is the correct way. also youre pumping away from the expansion tank which is perfect. youve done everything correctly. as far as the future wood boiler tee locations i would go with the secondary loop section that you pointed out. the only thing i would have done differently is put the secondary pump on the supply side.
Can you touch more on the reason/requirement for primary/secondary pumps??
Not a requirement, but improved operation and boiler protection. In a small system like this the two main reasons would be hydraulic separation, and thermal shock protection. The boiler and the heating loop have different flow rates. there are lots of different reasons for it and boiler manufacturers recommend it.
+MrKillanthony I agree
@@MrKillanthony d
The micro boiler warranty specifically requires the primary/secondary pump setup.
How big is your shop, and how well does your 7200KW boiler do at heating during really cold weather? What kind of delta-T can you maintain before that little boiler can't keep up?
I've tried to run the heat loss calcs on my 30x40' insulated pole barn, and I *think* I need about 15-20K BTU/hr to maintain a 50F delta-T (which is warmer than I expect to need in Nebraska). That's well within the 24K BTU rating for that 7200KW boiler... if I'm doing my math right, which I may not be.
How about a Ben's garage system update? I will be doing one similar, but using 2 x 240V heaters for supply to four pex routes in the floor...leaving room for expansion.
Why do you have 2 pumps?
Why is a strainer/filter needed?
Also looking for this answer. I couldn't find the correct filter and bought a different one. Now it is getting build up and slowing the flow enough to stop my heater from coming on.
@@nickosterhout if it’s getting build up then I think that answers why it is needed, it is there to protect the boiler from whatever is building up in the strainer.
Hello Ben, please give us a feed back on the plastic Y strainer, does it handling well with over 150 deg F, I am looking to put it in with my boiler system, just like to get some feed back from you
It's fine for temperature. It's designed to handle that. One thing to be a little careful of is over-tightening. Plastic cracks easier than brass!
I wonder if I can find schematic with all the parts required to build a two zone system?
So what pressure is the gauge supposed to read. Mine is at 10+ while off and goes down to basically "0" while running. Floor is warm though...thanks
Did you get yours filled? Wayne 1/2hp Pump makes short work of it. get three washing machine hoses. Also easy way to bring the system to final pressure.
Soldering looks top notch to me...
Is that a watts pressure and temp sensor? Any issues or leaks with it so far?
I think you did a very nice job
Thanks! I've been happy with it.
Great work on your project and your video Ben. Thanks a lot for sharing. I am designing and building a similar garage system here in Canada. I have a single zone of 300-ft of 5/8" PEX already installed in the 4" garage floor slab. I believe you mentioned that two pumps are required so there is enough pressure to feed micro-boiler in the boiler loop to activate it. I am trying to figure out if my system will operate with one circulation pump only. This will save me over $200 dollars. Any thoughts? The pump I ordered is a 3-Speed Grundfos - Model UPS15-58FC - 1/25 hp. Thanks.
It really depends on what you are using for a heat source. Read the instructions for your heater and follow the pump requirements based on that.
@@BenjaminNelsonX That makes sense. Actually I'll be using the 7.2kW Hydro-shark 3, as you did. It appears the best solution for my small install of a 400 square foot work shop where I only have 60 amp service to play with. I just ordered it through Menards and need to pick it up in Michigan over the holidays. I'll take a second look at the hydro shark manual. I'm just at the parts gathering stage of this enjoyable and challenging project. I'm finding it a liitle harder too find some of these parts here in Canada that aren't twice the US cost. I appreciate any and all advice. I feel these microboiler systems have lot of potential to be cost effective heating solutions.
@@ryanofcanada6780 Since you are going to Menards anyways, check out any displays and other information they have on hydronic heat while you are there. The larger Menards stores should have a nice display of some of those components.
I am trying to figure this all out too for heating my shop. In one place I read where if you are using a condensing boiler, if the return water is too cold, it can mess up the proper operation of the boiler. By having a primary pump with the purge valve, it won’t only be cold water entering boiler. I have a tankless condensing water heater for DHW. Only cold water enters it, so I am not sure why it is a no-no for boilers.
Was wondering what value you are using for the pressure relief valve, 30..150..? No where can I find what value people have used for that component....tnx
I have a similar set up put only needed one circulating pump the second one isn’t required as far as I’m aware. Also on the cooler return water loop to the heater, I have a take off to the hot water output side and a ball valve with a temp gauge this allows me to restrict the return flow to both the hot out and the cool in so I use this water to modulate the overall temperature. My circulating pump is either actuated by a thermostat or by a programable timer. The timer is the primary and the thermostat is the back up secondary if the timer fails. This way you are protected against freezing if the timer fails. I live in Canada and I think the city permit guys force you to have a back up do to the frost line being 8 feet below grade 🤷♂️🤷♂️🥶🥶
You only need one pump, keep the one on the return and get rid of the pump on the supply
2 is good, but you need a better controller. You want second pump to run by itself so it can run longer and use all the heat. And then the main pump runs off a auqastat that will cycle the boiler between 130 and 180
Hi, How much did everything cost you, the whole radiant heat system including the PEX tubing. Thank you
I have outfitted my home with Rotex manifolds and piping from Germany. The engineer who designed and installed my system says that 40°C is the max temperature that can be run through our system. Also the "concrete radiating sub floor" was mixed with chopped fiberglass and a latex solution to inhibit cracking due to the thermal expansion. I have a dual heat supply system where my fireplace equipped with a built in boiler will supply the primary heat source while the oil fired boiler is the backup source. This requires the installation of a heat exchanger tank where the two systems are isolated but supply hot water to the hydronic heat in the main home at 40° while supplying 70° water to the radiators in the basement. One you heat up the concrete radiator you leave it running if at a reduced temperature when a lot of hat is not needed. This eliminates reheating the radiating surface which can cost more in the long run.
sounds delightful
cheers
dave
Great video i am not dyi homeowner and I belive this make work on my basement ... how much all this cost ?? Do I need 110v or220 v... my have install the pump circulator to regular base heater it works fine for 2 days and then nothing so I looking better eays to do it some one suggests to conevet to water heater so heat the baseboard radiators.. I have also the same taco controller connecter the circulator pump so no idea ???
We too have a hydronics component video and so much more. I also recommend removing the second pump and a redseign of that board. Great video!
Hi Ben, it seems like there is no Water Pressure Reducing Valve in your system. I read somewhere that the pressure , since is much higher coming from the city, will damage the apparatus over time without a water pressure reducing valve. What is your thought on that. Thank you
This system is NOT connected to city water.
how did you wire the taco sr-501 to the 2 pumps? can you post a pic of the wired box?
Great Job on the system, i just did one as well with the same micro boiler. to everyone that says you don't need two pumps, manufacturer states that a primary/secondary system with a "Y" strainer is required or the warranty on the boiler is void. Just a guess, but i would think that has to do with not having stagnant fluid sitting in the boiler which may cause buildup.
That is correct about the boiler warranty. Another thing nice about the "Y" strainer is that it's clear, so a person can see the fluid in it. That's a nice way to be able to see that the system is full and all the air-bubbles are worked out. Everywhere else is opaque.
yes!just the info I needed and an excellent presentation. thanks Ben.
Great job! Out of curiosity, which brand pec did you choose and which brand manifold did you choose and why?
I simply used parts that were available off-the-shelf from a major home improvement store. I was able to personally inspect parts before buying them. I don't think there's really any big difference between brands. Being able to check out parts before purchase, because they were in front of me, instead of for example mail-order, I was confident that I was getting relatively good quality.
Why did u not add a glycol feeder and how did u pressurize the system
If you look on the middle-left of the system, you will see a set of shut-off valves and hose connection points. Those are used to fill the system. The system was filled with a pump and hose connected there, drawing the glycol from a 5-gallon bucket. The pump is also what's used for originally pressurizing the system.
thanks for the reply, what type of thermostat did you use, I am having issues getting a 12 v thermostat working
@@geraldsosontovich2124 I just used a very simple thermostat that runs on a pair of batteries. It has a pair of low voltage wires that runs to the switching relay for the pumps. The thermostat sends low voltage to the relay, turning it on. AC power then runs to the pumps, powering them up. The heater is activated by an internal flow sensor and the heat kicks on once the glycol is flowing.
For a really low-tech ON/OFF. A light switch can instead be used to turn on/off a low-voltage AC signal to the switching relay.
real nice setup i like the idea of being able to run a wood fueled boiler.
Love that system! Wood redundat awesome, but why bypass the electric heater, it will turn on automatically when wood craps out.
The electric heater is a style where you set the OUTPUT temperature at the heater. As long as the temperature is above that, the fluid will pass right through without being heated. So yes, a wood-heat source could be added with the electric heater still in series and it would all work just fine.
Is the purge t necessary. And how do you use it
The t-purge is primarily used for filling and draining the system.
Great Video! Do you have a parts list for this? Trying to do something similar and already have the floor piping in with manifold, so now it's time to do all of the plumbing for the tankless propane boiler I'm going to get. The issue for me is that I don't know the exact names of each of the components even though I visually know what they are and if I could go to a parts bin I could pick them out. (that would result in many trips to the big box which would be bad)
Thanks!
Hi James,
No, sorry, I don't have a parts list. Basically, I read a college text book on hydronic heat, then I went to the big box home improvement store, looked at a pre-built product they had, bought the parts for it, and assembled it myself.
I modeled that after this hydronic heat panel: www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/radiant-heat-control-panels/hydro-smart-trade-1-zone-low-temp-integrator-panel/hsps120lt/p-1444433734726-c-8521.htm?tid=922881261078849570&ipos=3
By doing the work myself, I only had to pay for parts, not labor, saving some money.
The heater I used was a Hydro-Shark 3 7kW electric heater, which I bought used. www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/radiant-heat-boilers/stiebel-eltron-hydro-shark-reg-electric-microboiler/sh3-07/p-1444433731813-c-8519.htm?tid=-4632102269778309964&ipos=1
@@BenjaminNelsonX Think I figured all of it out. If it doesn't blow up, then I did it right ;)
@@jameshancock That's usually my opinion!
Seriously though, when heating liquids, you CAN blow things up. So, don't do that.
Ben - did you have to use a separate water tank to keep the unit filled and pressurized?
while you got it like it is. you should put in some "wells" so you can put some probs and set up a dataloger. next to the other 2 thermometers. good stuff Ben. thanks for the over view! I recommend getting some vacume tube thermal generators. there expensive but they work really well. even in winter. direct heat output from the sun. ~Russ
I think I'm okay with just placing the sensors directly against the copper pipe, and taping over them. Alternatively, the thermometers just pop right out, and I could put sensors in their place.
Hi Ben, many thanks for your instructive videos. Thanks to you, I've decided to use hydronic heating for my new garage and I've changed the steel profile for the roof so I can use S-5 clamps for the solar panels (and avoid punching a bunch of holes in a brand new roof!). I'm still studying options for the boiler and I'm wondering if you've compiled the power usage (in KWhr) of your boiler as a function of average outside temperatures. If this is already posted somewhere, please point me to the link. Thanks again.
I've been very happy with the metal roof and S-5! clamps. Works great!
For the in-floor heat, make sure to insulate your garage well, including under the slab.
I do NOT have data tracking power use vs outside temperature, but I do have an old-school utility meter which I run my boiler through so that I can track the power it uses.
I am NOT necessarily recommending electric as a heat source. In my area, natural gas is the most economical way to heat, but I don't have a gas line to the garage and want to get away from fossil fuels anyways. I might still rig up a wood fired boiler to the garage. The town yard waste site is just down the street from me, and I'd be able to get all the free wood I want from there.
You CAN estimate power usage from area/volume, insulation factor, and average temperatures. There's even on-line calculators for that sort of thing to at least get a "ball-park" number.
Good video, finally a great explanation, thank you
Do you have a schematic of this setup with parts needed? Saw this same setup on UA-cam and figured there must be a write up on each part used.
menards has this exact setup with the same components in a brochure in the plumbing dept.
SupaTrending Daily It won’t be inefficient if it is too small. I may be ineffective at low temps, but it will be very efficient as it will run at high output most of the time.
SupaTrending Daily I agree, but taking too long is not an efficiency issue.
SupaTrending Daily It depends on the details, but in general the answer is yes. A 90,000 BTU boiler will be larger and have greater thermal mass. You are heating both the boiler and the water. A larger boiler means you are heating a larger boiler mass in addition to the water mass so, yes, generally it will take more total energy if you are using a larger boiler.
SupaTrending Daily It will take longer, but it won’t burn more fuel. You are confusing heating time with efficiency.
Fossil fuels what is it 1996? Where do you think the electricity comes from? Natural gas is amazing on about every single level. Cheep abundant minimum carbon foot print
The electricity comes from the solar panels on the roof. Natural gas is great for heating, but it would also had been considerable work and expense to run natural gas piping to this building. Since I already have electricity in the garage and can literally make my own, that seemed like a good choice.
I've also added some solar thermal heating.
that is why he mentioned solar panel pay attention
Man. It's definitely not '96. It's 2019. It's time to eliminate all fossil fuel. Fracking is incredibly dangerous to ground water systems and it doesn't address the issues with carbon dioxide.
I’m actually in the trades. Commercial/Industrial HVAC electrician. I work on huge air handlers, that utilize hydronic heating and cooling circuits to condition the air flowing through the air handlers. I work directly with union fitters, on these systems. You’ve done a great job. I’ve helped install several of those fractional Hp pumps also... I’m wondering if you could do a video showing the details of each component that you have there?.. it would help tremendously!.. thanks!... keep up the great work!...just a thought. Have you considered hydro solar panels as your hot water source?.. then the electric as a backup.
Nice job! do you have a parts list? can you tell me the brand name of the assembled unit that you mentioned in your video? thank you
At Menard’s, they carry the Hydro-Smart components. Hydro-Smart is located in Minnesota. I bought the parts for the single zone panel HSPS120LT for around $1,000. Menard’s sell it for $1600. The propane boiler was $1300 and took 2 weeks to arrive. If you go forward, you can order Nibco valves with the hose ports from Zoro on the internet. I was impressed with their service.
That is a closed pressured system that you needs a boiler pressure regulated with a back flow protector. A wood boiler is a non pressured system. I would recommend a plate heat exchanger to transfer wood boilers hot water to the pressured floor heat system. Most people don't have enough space on there electric panel to add a electric boiler that could require 80 amps.
Yes, a heat exchanger was exactly what I've been thinking if I added a wood-fired boiler.
The electric micro-boiler I've been using so far is 7200 watts, or 30A. The garage has a 100A breaker panel and now includes a solar array and several electric car charging stations.
7,200 watts is about 25,000 btu. I typically figure about 45 btu per sq foot is needed from a boiler. If you did not insulate under the concrete you need to figure even more btu's.
2" of foam under and around the concrete. ua-cam.com/video/hvtELaVmSi0/v-deo.html
Perimeter insulation of the slab is the key here!!
Absolutely!
will this work for a driveway?
Yes, there are ice-melt systems that are designed very similar to this.
However, to me, I would just see it as a tremendous waste of energy!
Like Dad always said "What are you doing? Trying to heat the entire outdoors!?"
The nice thing about your set up is that you can easily add solar thermal panels to the system flowing the water thru your electric heater along with a heat storage tank. Using the panels and a tank you likely will totally stop ever having that electric heater energize
Unfortunately, my yard is shaded, especially in the winter when heat is needed most, but YES, the great thing about a system like this is that a person can add heat to the system in a number of different ways! I plan to do some experimenting with a wood-burning boiler to heat with bio-mass.
An insulated water tank really isn't needed either, as the floor itself is a large thermal mass, capable of absorbing a large amount of heat and releasing it slowly over time.
@@BenjaminNelsonX Would think that most of the yard would be less shaded in winter than summer unless you have nothing but ever greens grins. As to the storage tank my thinking is that it allows for a buffering tank so you are not having cycling of the heater. Since you do have the little electric dont forget to descale it annually.
Although I don't have any good place for solar hot water panels, I did modify one of the garage doors to become a solar collector on sunny winter days. See the write-up at: www.instructables.com/id/Passive-Solar-Garage-Door/
I’m sure because this video was posted so long ago you probably won’t see it. But I have question. I have the same system in my shop with the very same micro boiler Hydro Shark 3 and something went wrong with my boiler. It’s feeding 120v back into the electrical system in the shop. Outlets all started testing positive neutral reverse. As soon as I cut power to boiler everything tests correct. With power to the system when I touch the copper pipes I get shocked. I’m going to replace the boiler. I have no idea how to add glycol back to the system and bleed out the air. I can’t find any information on how to do this. I live in Wisconsin and it’s about to get very cold. Can you please help with answering how to add the glycol and bleed the system??
Hi Kevin, sorry to hear about your boiler!
After you replace it, just follow the typical directions for filling a system like this. There are a lot of videos about filling and bleeding the air from a system on SOLAR Hot Water setups. Take a look at one of those. I've also found that Callefi has a lot of great videos in general on hydronic heating.
ua-cam.com/video/raHCtObGOhY/v-deo.html
@@BenjaminNelsonX thank you so very much for your reply. I will do me research and check out the link. Thanks again!
You could have reduced cost by only using one pump since its only a one zone system. Also could have used a 110v thermostat strait to the pump eliminating the toco controller as well. This set up would also reduce the demand on your solar set up by not running two pumps and a 24v transformer in the toco controller. Great job by the way. Just my 2 cents. Cheers
Dan Smith
,,ounce
Really? With Primary secondary, I'd say you absolutely must have two pumps. (?)
@@constantreader7944 I just purchased a house and needed the boiler replaced. I am just like BenjaminNelson and knew nothing about boilers. I purchased the boiler new for 1820.00 USD after getting a quote of 8K install. I spent 3 days researching online how boilers worked, what made them tic and how to install them. Then had a grocery list of parts needed of 700.00 USD for a 2 zone system on a 2 story house with basement. I did all the work myself not knowing anything. Now, the old system only has 1 pump and I will continue with 1 pump. I will convert the 2 zone system to a 4 zone system because the baseboard runs are very long per floor. FYI 1 pump is all you need even for a 6 zone setup. My 1 pump is on the return line. any more than that is over kill and a waist of time/money.
I have couple of questions. How do you make sure you have enough fluid in the system? It might evaporates through the air remover part and the heater can get damaged when heating empty spots. Why is the expansion tank facing down? Doesn't that cause the fluid lose? And last question, can this system heat the panel radiators instead of floor tubing?
No, the anti-freeze doesn't evaporate. The air-bubble remover actually PREVENTS void in the fluid that could cause issues with cavitation or heating.
The expansion tank is facing down because that's how it is in the installation manual for the tank and how it was on the professional system that I more or less copied (but paid significantly less for.)
Yes, a similar system could heat radiant panels, although it would likely have to be running at a higher temperature. Temperature times surface area is what transfers total heat. Because the floor is so big, the system can be run with very low temperatures. It's more of a "warm water system" than a "hot water system". I typically run the electric heater at around 100 degrees fahrenheit.
Very nice set up. You may want to use a 40 gal water heater whether you go with an outside boiler, or solar, or not. Energy storage is key to energy efficiency. Also, if hydro is expensive at certain times, you can run a timer.
A water tank isn't needed for storage. The water tank would only hold 8.34 pounds of water times 40 gallons = a mass of about 334 pounds vs 24 tons of concrete that the garage floor is made from. Heating the mass of the floor itself is medium of storage.
I guess what I was saying is that, with a temperature differential of 50 degrees (100-150), a forty gallon water heater will store 16,700 BTUs of energy. 25,020 BTUs for a 60 gallon WH. That is a controlled storage of energy, where as the mass floor storage is already released.
I'd love to see an update video on your installed system. I found the heater you are using on the Home Depot website and see it is a 40 or 50 amp heater. How has the heater worked for you? Did you end up using glycol? How was the filling of the system?
The heater has worked well.
I used glycol. Filling the system was a little bit of a pain because I didn't really have the right type of pump. A pump that self primes and can give you the right pressure for you system is the right way to go.
I appreciate you documenting your process and thoughts. I do have a question for you regarding the primary and secondary loop. It looks like your primary loop causes a back flow in your secondary if the secondary is not in operation. Is that efficient? is there a valve I didn't see? Thank you.
Both pumps have integral check valves built in. There shouldn't be any back flow.
I'm learning as I go too, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some odd thing like that which I didn't catch. I did pretty much just duplicated the pre-made "Radiant Panel" at the store, so I hope I have this all right. At the point of this writing, (March 6, 2017) I don't have the panel yet hooked up, as I'm still working on the general garage construction. Once my wall interiors are finished, I will hook up the radiant, and troubleshoot it from there if needed.
I am a boiler mechanic for 30 years. Not sure why you wouldn't just use electric heat? Changing the energy to water is a loss of efficency . Elect heat is 100% already.
The invention of PEX tubing revolutionized radiant infloor heating in concrete slabs. By heating the slab not only do you have warm feet, but heat emanating from the floor reduces cold air stratification near the floor. I am not familiar with any cost effective way of placing electric heating cables in a concrete slab.
Sidebar story: There is a welding fabrication company in SW Wisconsin. They originally had propane space heaters. In the winter, even with insulated shoes and layers of clothing, it was difficult to stay warm. Every time the overhead doors opened to bring equipment and supplies in and out, it would take 1/2 hour or more before the space heater caught up again. They bought some newer, heavier equipment which required thicker concrete concrete floors. When they poured the new floors they also installed PEX loops in the slab. The difference in comfort was night and day. Now when they open the overhead doors, the recovery is not instantaneous but it is just a few minutes. Now they no longer wear insulated shoes and boots to keep warm. The floor is warm so all the equipment and steel stay warm since everything is sitting on a heated floor.
@@dougshakell8003 mass. As he noted earlier, baseboard or other electric heat would heat the air in his shop. It would dump it the moment a door was opened in cold weather. In floor electric in a garage slab seems a bit risky to me.
Any of Dan Holohans books on the subject are highly recommended with regard to your modification plans - good job.
Primery secondary pumping made easy by Dan is the best book ever
are both pumps the exact same pump/part number?
Yes. The pumps are the same brand/size/power/speed.
Are you in the US? You couldn't do this in Ontario, perhaps you buying Kathleen Wynns excise power at like 1 cent a KW
Wonder where he lives? what does manual j say for his winter OSA temp? A heat pump maybe the better option, but not as fun to build.
I Rich. I live in south-eastern Wisconsin.
Heat pumps are good technology, but are not the magic bullet of heating. They only work well down to a certain temperature, and you still need backup heat after that.
The hydronic system has other advantages, such as the fact that I could plumb an outdoor wood-burning furnace into it.
Another advantage of the hydronic is how the thermal mass of the concrete (which has insulation below and around it) helps keep the space at a steady temperature.
hi ben. I have a hydronic water heating system and there's a hot water leak running from one of the copper pipes to the outside of the house. some infers I've called are not familiar with this system at all. any advice? i have a video of this leak.
I guess I'd say to call a plumber or HVAC person who specializes in that kind of work.
My garage hydronic heat system is the ONLY experience I have working on this sort of thing, and I wasn't running any copper pipes outside the building. Sorry I can't be more of a help.
Something is missing! The diverter or mixing valve. The temperature of the water in the loop must be low and controlled.
There is no need for a mixing valve. It's a closed-loop system. The electric boiler only heats the water to whatever temperature I set it to, usually about 100 degrees Fahrenheit. With the entire floor of the garage being the heat source, only very low boiler temperatures are required.
The mixing valve has the 2nd intake from the return of the loop. The speed of the pump influence the temperature as well as the power of the heater. The mixing valve compensates this two maintaining the temperature at the set value. In Europe the hydronic floor started to be use in residential since 35 years. Now it is mandatory in almost all new constructions. A mixing valve is always used in the system to avoid stress on the materials of the floor.
@@1968matrix The output temperature of the heater is variable and automatic. It provides a steady low output, no matter what the return temperature is.
David Vianello no need to mix. Set the water heater at desired temperature
@@BenjaminNelsonX I understand. But if something goes wrong, you want always a safe option.
A mixing valve should be added to the system especially with a wood fired boiler for temp. control. I am having a 10 kw solar system installed for my house and detached 1500 sf. garage in Colorado ( 300 days of intense sunshine) to augment LP Tagaki TKJR on demand water heaters using a copper plate heat exchangers for the infloor heat. Keep up the good work! PS. house and garage also have wood stoves.
At this point, the micro-boiler has complete temperature control, and I only run that at about 100 degrees F. Yes, with a wood boiler I would absolutely want to add some additional temperature controls.
Where did you find the fitting that the relief valve threads into?
I purchased all the components through MENARDS, a big-box home improvement store in my area. See if you can find a local vendor in your area. Otherwise, nearly everything is available by mail order nowadays. www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/hydronic-radiant-heat/c-8517.htm
Hi Ben , I have an 80 litre boiler and approx 80 litres in the system. What size expansion vessel should I use ? Thanks Paul
Water expands 5 percent from 0 to 95 degrees so easy to calculate,plus volume of pipe work if the system is big
Wont this make ur house turn into an oven?
Um.... That's sort of the point of any heating system. Your house is just a big box that you heat in the winter.
A house is a much larger box than an oven, so no, it's not going to be 400 degrees.
I originally just designed it with an ON/OFF switch, and would just run it maybe on a Friday night for working in the garage over the weekend. It just raises the temperature. I'd usually shoot for about 50 degrees, as that's very comfortable for working in a jacket AND FAR BETTER than a 10 degree outdoor temperature!
The mass of the concrete absorbs the heat created and slowly releases it over a longer time. This gives the advantage of a stable temperature.
Could this setup be used for baseboard radiators instead of in floor heating?
Hi Joe. Yes! This same type of system could be used with baseboard radiators. However, you should keep in mind that those systems typically require HIGHER water temperatures than using pex tubing embedded in concrete. Lower water temperatures mean less electricity (or other power source) to heat the area. Because my ENTIRE floor is a heater, it is a large area at a low temperature. With baseboard heaters, you have a much smaller area, so you need hotter water temperatures and more flow to transfer the same amount of heat.
If you are interested in designing and building your own baseboard hot-water system, go for it, but make sure you do your math calculations first!
Ok so I would have to use an actual boiler then not a tankless? I have no heat in my house and I'm being quoted over 10k for a furance and 8k for mini splits so I think this will be my cheapest option.
If you are adding heat to a house that never had one, there are a lot of variables to consider. For a smaller place in a relatively moderate climate (which I assume you are if you were getting by WITHOUT heat before) mini-split heat pumps are probably a good choice. They also give you the option to cool as well.
If you are specifically interested in DIY hydronic heating, take a look at Mr. Money Mustache's DIY Hydronic setup. www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/02/16/the-radiant-heat-experiment/
Hey. Maybe wrap the pipes & some components, with insulation, to keep heat in the system, until where you want it to go out? Have the heat stay in the water, farther & farther away from the source. And even insulate the return lines, so the heater doesn't have to work as hard, to maintain a temperature. Saving energy. This is also a great idea for a home, so a boiler, doesn't have to work as hard, to bring hot enough water to an upstairs, or far away bathroom or kitchen.
In general, insulating pipes is a good thing. In this case, all of these components are IN the room they are heating. Any heat "Lost" just goes to air heating the space the floor is heating as well.
BenjaminNelson I understand. Thank you for all of the work you do. I'm building a hybrid motorcycle soon, and your videos about electric motorcycles, are a big help. I know you want to swear off burning fuels, but my solution to the range issue of batteries, is to use a small engine, meant for rc planes, to recharge the batteries with alternators or generators, and also directly power the motor controller & motor. With that setup, I can continue on a long adventure or continue delivering things, even when the batteries are too low. And I don't plan on always using gasoline. I want to make my own fuel, like moonshine.
BenjaminNelson Sorry. I meant a plug in hybrid motorcycle. And I will use built in hobby chargers to charge all the batteries to 85%, to get the most life out of them, and a DC to AC converter to power the chargers, and other things. My bike will be like a mobile generator, not only for the batteries, but for camping & emergencies.
BenjaminNelson BenjaminNelson ...Ben?...I understand if you hate me for burning any fuel. But I'm curious what you think of my set up. And not only am I using hobby chargers, to make sure I don't overcharge my batteries, but circuits to warn me, then disconnect the batteries, if they get too low. No BMS.
A hybrid motorcycle would be a great project. It's quite a bit of gear to fit in a motorcycle though. I always thought it would work best on either a trike or a motorcycle with a side-car. I would avoid trying to create AC power, only to convert back to DC power. Many battery chargers and power supplies actually can run on either AC OR DC as a source. The fewer times you have to change energy from one form to another, the fewer losses there are.
I did the same system but instead of copper i used pex-al and it did work great just a thought was a little cheaper
those pumps circulate well, so why two?
The boiler is flow-activated. In a system designed to use it, it requires one pump for the boiler, the other for circulating to the Pex. I also allows for testing the system and the boiler before being connected to the Pex.
hydro-smart.com/Images/Low%20Res%20HydroShark3_InstallManual.pdf
You could still provide flow through the boiler from one pump seeing it is only a one loop/zone system 2 pumps is overkill. That being said, im not familiar with electric boilers only Gas, not sure what the flow rate is needed to activate them. Cheers
Hi Ben, I built a system similar to yours. I seen some rust infiltrating my system (i have cast iron circulators) and am concerned it will damage the tankless boiler. Did you have a similar issue? If so, how did you correct it? Did you use any corrosion inhibitors? If so, any recommendations?
Hi Zachary. My system uses anti-freeze as the circulating fluid. The fluid I purchased (Cryo-Tek Blue) is specifically marketed for hydronic heating systems and does have corrosion inhibitors in it. Care must be taken with systems that use straight-up water. At my house, we have very high iron and calcium in our well water. Because of that, an "on-demand" water heater for our household hot water would probably be a bad idea. I'm sure that heater would gunk up with minerals in no time.
For a closed-loop hydronic heating system using commercially purchased Propylene Glycol with corrosion inhibitors, I don't think it will be a problem. If you are using an open-loop water-based system, clean water and non-ferrous pumps are the way to go.
I also have a Wye-strainer in my system before the heater, but I have no idea how small of particular matter that will screen out. Always good to have filters BEFORE heaters and pumps though!
Make sure the PEX you are using is oxygen barrier PEX for hydronic systems, it is NOT the same PEX used for fresh water piping. Cast Iron circulators, cast iron or steel boilers and any other ferrous metal in the system will rust due to oxygen migration into the closed loop. This is a very common mistake when people build their own radiant floor systems.
U can stick on return an Magnaclean!
good sweat for a novice! can't wait to see it up and running with the thermal cam!
Yep way better than what I saw done by the builders in my area - lots of scorched wood, excess heat on the pipes and solder drips.
Totally! I'll break out my Flir smart phone accessory once it's all up and running!
BenjaminNelson thanks for the reply! Can't wait!
I would check that the pump you are using to push water through your heater supplies enough pressure. I worked in a builders merchants one time and the boss tried using a heating pump for a fountain. It did not work because the actual pump is only designed to assist the water to circulate around the system.
These pumps are specifically "circulator pumps" designed for these types of systems. One thing I did was to make sure to keep each loop of Pex piping less than 250 feet, to help keep the resistance to flow low. Pumps for fountains and pumps for circulating hydronic heat are two very different things.
deserves a thumbs up
That is a lot of electricity in your garage. How big is your solar array?
The solar array has a 6.24kW faceplate value. I have a 100 amp electrical service in the garage. I have electric baseboard heaters upstairs, and a 7kW demand heater for the hydronic. (But I use the heat sparingly.) I also have two electric car charging stations, one for 30A, one for 16A.
I can weld or do pretty much anything else I could ever possibly want to do in my garage that uses a lot of power!
Wow that is awesome thanks man
Well done.
Nice. Hows it working?
Overall, I've been very happy with the system. I will say that heating with electric has the potential to be expensive. On the other hand, I already heavy electrical running to the garage, but no natural gas, propane, etc. and that saved me from having to install any of the expensive infrastructure.
I'm still planning to experiment with a wood-fired boiler (which was part of my plan from the start.)
The thick concrete slab does a great job of moderating temperatures. Just having good insulation in the garage, along with the mass of the concrete (and the fact that the concrete is insulated) really helps with temperature control in the garage, even WITHOUT heating.
Another side benefit is that the garage has been very cool in the summer.
I've also been very happy with the Passive Solar Garage Door. It lets the light (and heat!) in and the insulated concrete absorbs and releases the heat. ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
Ben, why did you not consider a heat pump?
Price is probably a big factor there, and they work badly below -4C. If you just want warm water to heat a building it's hard to get around something simple as vacuum pipes. A simple heat exchanger could be inserted inline and the electric would do the rest.
For that matter, a simple 1 element (1.2x1 meter) vacuum tube setup will likely provide more then enough heat for the building. You can even mount these vertically, although a 45 degree angle is the norm. It does open a can of worms to have proper venting in case of overheating. Although a simple shade for the summer would suffice.
I don't agree with you about the price, because Ben is clever enough to buy a ductless mini air condition and modify it like others to have a heat pump that takes heat from the air or a near by pond or so to heat the garage. Having said that, I live in Cairo Egypt so -4C is not actual here. And It is not always -4C or less where Ben lives. But yes you are right heat pumps have a limit. What made me write was the 7kW that Ben mentioned. The Coefficient of Performance (COP) of most ductless split air conditions, is above 3.5. Mine is 4.5 and as I said I live in Cairo Egypt. So if Ben uses the 7 kW of his heater in a heat pump he will get a lot back from moving the heat from even -4C to warm the floor of his garage. If we count on a COP of 2 to compensate for the -4C or below then we get 14 kW instead of 7 kW. It is also possible to get a better COP at lower temperatures. But I want to say Bravo to Ben because he will get the 7 kW back from his solar production from the grid. What I also saw was that he can easily modify or add the heat pump later. Then he can reduce the amount of kWh that he will get back from the grid and maybe charge the car instead for warming the garage. Or maybe help in warming the house. At any rate being efficient always helps. A heat pump might not be enough but it will help.
Geothermal heat pumps get VERY expensive when you add in the cost of digging the wells. I also have very limited space in my yard to dig those wells. Heat pumps can only go to so low of a temperature before their efficiency drops, especially the air-to-air or "mini-split" types. I'd love to do some experimenting in the future. There are small window unit air conditioners that also act as heat pumps. I'd love to take one of those apart sometime.
I bought my Samsung 1 ton inverter ac. It heats and cools. Air to Air as you said. I am very impressed with it Ben. It runs on the solar panels that I have. It takes between 350W to 550W. The max it can do is 1000W. I paid about $500 for it. I am sure you can get it cheaper in the US. Maybe a used one. But I understand you that digging etc. is a bit too much especially when you have a grid tied system so you can always claim back some electricity from the electricity you gave to the grid. We are in two completely different climates you see. So I am sorry if my comments are not applicable to you. At any rate well done.
I've done projects like this before, and your work looks great to me! I'd hire you!
Why do you have two pumps? The only time you need hot water is when your system calls for it, it’s no need to be just circulating hot water through your loop when your in floor heating is not calling for it!
This particular system design uses two pumps. Both pumps work together for the "On Demand" heater to function the way it's designed to.
It does NOT circulate water through the loop when the heater isn't running.
Nice neat work, the soldered joints look fine, actually really good for a beginner. Just wonder why you went with copper instead of pex?
Many of the components needed soldered connections anyways, so for PEX, I would have needed to solder something in AND then have an adapter to PEX. I did use "push-connect" connectors a fair amount on this project. Those do cost more than a soldered connection, but work really well, are removable, and they also make it easy to still rotate the pipe. That was handy for a few spots where the pipes had to be on slightly odd angles.
What size garage are you heating?? Also do you have a parts list?? Great job BTW!! :)
The garage is 27 feet wide by 29 feet deep. I don't have a parts list. I simply duplicated a system I saw on display at a big box home improvement store. It is similar to this one: hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/HYDRO005/Prod_Tech_Spec/HSPS120LTSpecSheet.pdf
The linked file lists main components.
@@BenjaminNelsonX have you installed all of it and used it yet? How is it? What is your final assessment?
I've seen it said that these have to operate all the time basically, because warming water to warm a lot of concrete takes a long time so can't shut it down then expect a toasty space a 1/2 hour later. If you finished, do you shut it down and turn it on or leave it on for long periods?
A big piece of concrete has a LOT of thermal mass. That means that it's both very slow to heat up and slow to cool down. The upside of that is if I open my garage doors, all the heat doesn't just instantly leave. The downside it that it takes a long time to warm up. It's a great system for a steady temperature. My idea was that I want my garage warmer than the ambient temperature all winter, so, I could just set the heating system to go, but at a very low temperature. I would be much warmer than working outside, but would still be wearing a jacket, etc.
So far, If I knew I would be doing a lot of work in the garage (on a three-day weekend, etc.) I might turn the heat on or up at least a day or two ahead of time.
The temperature does change slowly. That's both an advantage and disadvange. So far, it seems to be working pretty well.
Keep in mind too that it's not as though the heater is running full blast continuously. On this style of micro-boiler, it just heats the fluid to whatever temperature you set it too. So it may be adding a little or a lot of heat to the fluid depending on what the incoming temperature is. I also now have a very basic ($20) thermostat on the system. I can set it to as low as 40 degrees F. That simply turns on the pump (and thus the boiler, because that's activated by flow) when temperature gets below the set temperature.
Right now, it's just reading air temperature. I did intall an empty piece of PEX hose when I poured the concrete. That allows me to fish a floor temperature sensor down into the concrete at some point in the future if I would like to.
I agree with your ideas, keep it at a temp that knocks of the chill in a garage due to the otherwise massively very cold concrete so yeah still wear a jacket but at least your fingers and toes aren't going numb like when I attempt to work in my garage during the deep winter. It is cost effective too so good job.
My father has a floor heating/cooling system, all i can say is that it's great to heat the house evenly but it has a lot of thermic "inertia" (i.e : it takes a long time to heat up and cool down because of all the heat that the concrete slab will contain)
That's what I've always heard too - that the thermal mass of the concrete means it heats and cools slowly. That's a big part of what I wanted. If I open a garage door to pull my car in or out, that's a huge amount of heated air leaving the building! However, if its the FLOOR that's warm, only a small amount of its mass is needed to reheat the air.
I plan to only heat the garage to a relatively low temperature, perhaps 50 degrees F. Frankly, anything above freezing is pretty luxurious in the winter. That's plenty warm for a workshop, when I'll also have good lighting and be out of the wind.
Looks like a pretty good set up. (I'm not a professional) Do you have the system up and running yet? If so, how's it work? And, mmmmmmmm, taco.
Overall, the system works very well. I ended up putting in a basic ($20) thermostat on it to automate the ON/OFF cycles. There's a few times this winter when I knew I'd be working in my garage all weekend, so a day ahead of time, I'd turn up the heat. Very nice working in a heated garage. Even 50 degrees is amazing if it's only 10 degrees outside.
For the most part, I've left it on with the thermostat set to 40 degrees (F). That prevents it from hitting freezing temperatures, but uses significantly less energy than if it was set to 50, 60, or 70 degrees. At 70, it would be about like me heating a second house! ($$$)
I also recent started experimenting with some passive solar, building a glass door that goes over my insulated overhead door. On a sunny winter day, I can let in the light and heat, but close the door at night and cloudy days to hold the heat inside. The hydronic system is also set up so that I could potentially connect an outdoor wood-burning boiler to it.
ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
Should have your pressure relief valve within 6" of your boiler.
Only the start of several poor piping principles. He needs to look into cavitation...causes and effects
Electric heating to heat water? Why not just use electric rads? The efficiency of electric is 100%.
Alex Fournier electric radiators are conventional convection type heaters they're okay if you want to heat the ceiling
This also adds the ability for his wood fired boiler. That being said I still would use a natural gas heater they are so much cheaper to run, and if and when I had that much solar capacity add solar to the system
I believe Alex means Electric mesh, instead of pax *water*
Alex Fournier
electricity is almost 100 percent efficient if you start at the coal plant and measure all the way to your heater yiu find a drastically different story
You need some Antminers this would be perfect once we liquid cool them.
lining up to be a really cozy garage
I also had this idea but was told that electric is too costly , good luck
It works well. I run it just as I need it, at night, when electric rates are cheap. I also have photovoltaic solar, so I can just turn sun into heat as well.
Ben. What are you doing???
Heating a house with electric is the fastest way to drain a wallet. It also uses more carbon per KWH than directly from gas.
Get a big wood stove.
Not true. Wood boiler is very expensive and needs a back up system anyway. For a garage that size his electric bill is likely $1k a year. A wood boiler is 5-10k and maintenance & reliably issues. Propane is not much cheaper and you need major...wife stopping me.
What about PROPANE.... That's what i have for my 25 year old house. New furnace and it's still WAY TOO EXPENSIVE..!! PROPANE SUCKS!
Is 2 pumps necessary ?
Dude you did this way over board brother!!!! Dang an electric boiler? You must have a nuclear power plant in your backyard.
The roof of the building is covered in photovoltaic solar panels which make electricity. It's a freestanding building with no natural gas or LP anyways.
Learn more about it at: 300mpg.org/bens-solar-garage/
Where I am cost is 11 cents kWh. Canadian. His 7 kw heater probably uses less than $1500 a year. For me cheaper than propane. And Wood- we’ll check $ for set up up to $10k.
Good on you !
I've now had this system running for the end of one winter and the entire next winter. I kept the system on with a simple thermostat set to the lowest setting (40℉.) The garage never got below freezing all winter. (In my area, temperatures are below freezing December through March, and we are usually in the single digits in January. I can honestly say that a thick, insulated concrete slab is an amazing thing. In the winter, the heat just stays inside, even if I have to open and close the garage door. Likewise, in the summer, it can be 20 degrees cooler and lower humidity inside my garage than outside.
I also built a passive solar garage door. When the sun is low in the sky in the winter, it shines in on the concrete floor, warming it.
www.instructables.com/id/Passive-Solar-Garage-Door/
ua-cam.com/video/EcuRfnP6E7I/v-deo.html
You should pin this post to the top.
Pinned!
"Beefy" is not 30 amp. He is producing the equivelent of 4 womens hair dryers. 15 A each x 4 with 2 legs.