Tom had the most important message anyone should keep in their life. It makes me wonder how so many people have read these books and still say that Tom wasn't an important character.
Tolkien himself literally said that Bombadil is not important for the narrative (Letter 144). Like... if you think he is that important, then you obviously know something that Tolkien didn't.
1) The power of The Ring is not diminished by Tom. However, Tom’s status and mystery are elevated due to his immunity to it. 2) Faramir is not immune to the ring. He is just wise enough to control his emotions and stay away from it. For example: I am wise enough to stay away from narcotic drugs. However, that doesn’t mean I would be immune to their addictive properties if I started using them.
Tom Bombadil is what happens when you start writing a story without a clear idea of where it's going. He and Goldberry feel like something Bilbo would have encountered in The Hobbit.
You could see it as a sign that there is some hope that the subsequent Quest may be achievable. Or you can try to take some guesses as to how the Ring works ie it is not desirable to someone who has all they desire, therefore is powerless to them
There’s no problem with Tom Bombadil. Peter Jackson’s decision to leave Bombadil out was only due to considerations of run length. If you have to cut things to keep a movie adaptation to a reasonable run length, you always start with things that aren’t critical to the plot. Bombadil isn’t critical to the plot, but neither does he undermine it.
I agree with your take on Bombadil. He always felt out of place for me even though I understand Tolkien must have had his reasons to include him and some readers may find him interesting in his own right. Anyway it appears to me that Tolkien was only just discovering the scope and tone of his own story when he was writing these early chapters of the Fellowship. He must have rewritten a lot of it but Bombadil (maybe wrongly so) stayed in there. I have no problem with Faramir whatsoever though. I really love his noble character and "The Window on the West" and "The Houses of Healing" are among my favorite chapters. In fact I'm appalled at what they did with Faramir in the movies. It's probably the main reason why I can't really watch the second and the third movie anymore. I still enjoy watching The Fellowship of the Ring where my issues with the adaptation are relatively minor.
Of the top of my head, I‘d say she represents nature, with her beauty and her caring and all the beautiful things she does for them, while Tom represents some sort of nature spirit, who seems all powerful almost, but only within the realm of nature. He has no influence beyond that or rather not interest, while on the other hand beings like Sauron have no interest in or influence on him. It’s a rather beautiful anachronism that undercuts the idea that in the end, nothing of what we do no matter how important it seems to us, really matters all that much to nature. Although that seems contradictory to Tolkien‘s belief in God and therefore purpose (which is also present in his mythology), but I think the unifying aspect here is, while Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf do important work and play an important role, they ultimately themselves are not more important than anyone, anything else in the world, or rather simply the world and creation itself. We like to think we‘re running the show and we‘re in control and to its most extreme this leads to the Sauron archetype, but in the end, we all have a role to play in the world and must eventually die and are forgotten. Even though a lot of people still know who Caesar was and broadly what he had done, I‘d say fewer actually know anything about his life, his successes, his failures, his children, his friends, allies and enemies, beyond those interested in that particular time period or history in general. We know even less about people and events that haven’t been as well documented as Roman history. For instance, the Vikings barely wrote anything down and much of our knowledge of the intricacies of their lives comes from archaeology and second hand contemporary accounts, which were often biased with opposing cultural views.
Given Tolkein's Catholic faith, I'd say Tom and Goldberry possibly are symbolic of Adam and Eve before the Fall of Man, before temptation, and therefore have no means of being corrupted by sin. We know Eru Ilúvatar hid the creation of his children (Elves and Men) from the Ainur and Maiar but he tells us no more about the coming of his children. Maybe this is a hint?
Good question … I’m still on the fence. I like the actor choice, but I feel he should have been presented as an older character, and is (as of ep4) not as jovial and whimsical as he should be. He’s too focused in his thought, rather than a careless wisdom-giver as in the novel. In the series he appears reserved in his characterization and not yet fully in command of his personality. Still, there’s something really likeable about him so far. But perhaps worst of all: Bombadil in Rhûn? Ugh … ugh …
I suppose you could also argue that other members of the fellowship should have plotted to take he ring if it had such a corruptive presence. If we consider Faramir should have been drawn by it, then why not Aragorn at Bree?
Because the corruption Takes different time Form Character to Character until the effects are visibile, but that's the reason why the fellowship failed because they came to the conclusion that one after another the members would get tempted to take the Ring. Boromir was only the First one where the corruptive Power has shown it's effects. Sorry for my english, it's Not that great
Oh man, why'd you have to break my heart like that? Love your voice and accent, and the content too, but really, Tom Bombadil is your favourite chapter? I feel betrayed. 😭
@@lilyduck4538 that is true. I guess I am more comparing him to Faramir who didn't ever put the ring on. To me Sam resisting the ring in the end is more impressive than Faramir..
I don't see anything particularly exceptional about Faramire to that degree. All the members of the fellowship know about the ring and are not tempted by it, other than Boromir. It can only use what is within that person to tempt them. Faramir is not ultimately a man of ambition, that doesnt nean that if it did come into his possession it would not corrupt him over time however, Sam felt its influence when he had it. The rings power is limited, it does not seem to exert any influence on those near to it, who don't know about it. It was in the Shire for decades without impacting the population. Bombadil is an exception, I think you just have to accept he lives outside all the rules that affect any other being. That makes sense given the character was a pre-existing one that was leavered into the story by Tolkien. Bombadil is one of those aspects of the story which build the idea of a complex and confusing world, not all relevant or concerned with the story we are following. Old Man Willow and the Wights are examples of dangers and evil that is not controled by Sauron, just as Shelob and Smaug are. The Ring isnt all powerful, because Sauron isnt, his reach is great but limited.
It Takes different times for the Ring to corrupt different Characters, it all comes down to how strong their will is to resist the temptation. Boromir was the weakest in that sense, hence why the Ring showed it's effects first on him. That is also the reason why the fellowship failed, because they came to the conclusion that one after another the Ring will tempt them to take it. The Reason why Aragon let Frodo and Sam go, so that none of them where stand in the way of Destroying the Ring Sorry my english is not the best
@@Via_The_Void it's Harper Collins 2005 Hardback 1st edition. I think They did an omnibus version as well but not 100% sure if it was this edition of another one.
The version he's holding is the separate editions. There was a red slipcase omnibus deluxe edition which came out in 2004. There is another omnibus edition which came out in 2013 published by William Morrow and Company which has a similar cover and image but is greyish in colour compared to the cream shown in the video.
@@Mark-nh2hs It's that cream edition he's holding I'm interested in. Can that one be got as a set along with The Two Towers & Return of the King. They'd all have to say 50th Anniversary edition on the slip case. Those are the books I'm after.
People of strong character, capable of resisting such temptations, have always existed. Heaven forfend that they should exist in Lord of the Rings, however. Talkien scr*wed up his stories just as much as any other author. BUT, he could do that. It's just fiction.
In the movie, Faramir’s struggle with temptation (the ring) was too similar to Boromir’s. I like the diversity in the books with regard to how people react to the ring. It doesn’t undercut the themes of temptation or power to me. One good way to not succumb to temptation is to avoid it (lead us not into temptation). And some people are better at that than others. Concerning Bombadil, I understand the objection of his placement from a narrative perspective (although, as you said, it is a nice reprieve from the black riders). But I see him as a representation of the ideal relationship between man and the natural world. To me, Tolkien seems to be telling us that concerning oneself more with God’s creation and less with the world of men might lead us away from temptation. This is akin to the Christian concept of not being “of the world.” That is not to say that one should be resigned, but that the focus should be towards God. Anyway, very thoughtful and thought provoking as usual!
In my heart, Tom Bombadil is simply an avatar or Eru Iluvatar. Why not? If I had created a world, I would want to experience it and I would want to remain a mystery only because it's fun. But we'll never know so no one can argue with this opinion.
Tom had the most important message anyone should keep in their life. It makes me wonder how so many people have read these books and still say that Tom wasn't an important character.
Tolkien himself literally said that Bombadil is not important for the narrative (Letter 144). Like... if you think he is that important, then you obviously know something that Tolkien didn't.
1) The power of The Ring is not diminished by Tom. However, Tom’s status and mystery are elevated due to his immunity to it.
2) Faramir is not immune to the ring. He is just wise enough to control his emotions and stay away from it.
For example: I am wise enough to stay away from narcotic drugs. However, that doesn’t mean I would be immune to their addictive properties if I started using them.
Exactly. Good points!
Tom Bombadil is what happens when you start writing a story without a clear idea of where it's going. He and Goldberry feel like something Bilbo would have encountered in The Hobbit.
You could see it as a sign that there is some hope that the subsequent Quest may be achievable. Or you can try to take some guesses as to how the Ring works ie it is not desirable to someone who has all they desire, therefore is powerless to them
There’s no problem with Tom Bombadil. Peter Jackson’s decision to leave Bombadil out was only due to considerations of run length. If you have to cut things to keep a movie adaptation to a reasonable run length, you always start with things that aren’t critical to the plot. Bombadil isn’t critical to the plot, but neither does he undermine it.
True, plus he did include few elements of Tom Bombadil chapters with Treebeard in extendee edition.
Indeed he did 🙂
I agree with your take on Bombadil. He always felt out of place for me even though I understand Tolkien must have had his reasons to include him and some readers may find him interesting in his own right. Anyway it appears to me that Tolkien was only just discovering the scope and tone of his own story when he was writing these early chapters of the Fellowship. He must have rewritten a lot of it but Bombadil (maybe wrongly so) stayed in there.
I have no problem with Faramir whatsoever though. I really love his noble character and "The Window on the West" and "The Houses of Healing" are among my favorite chapters. In fact I'm appalled at what they did with Faramir in the movies. It's probably the main reason why I can't really watch the second and the third movie anymore. I still enjoy watching The Fellowship of the Ring where my issues with the adaptation are relatively minor.
In all the discussions I’ve heard about Tom Bombadil no one has ever mentioned Goldberry and his relationship to her and what she represents
Of the top of my head, I‘d say she represents nature, with her beauty and her caring and all the beautiful things she does for them, while Tom represents some sort of nature spirit, who seems all powerful almost, but only within the realm of nature. He has no influence beyond that or rather not interest, while on the other hand beings like Sauron have no interest in or influence on him. It’s a rather beautiful anachronism that undercuts the idea that in the end, nothing of what we do no matter how important it seems to us, really matters all that much to nature. Although that seems contradictory to Tolkien‘s belief in God and therefore purpose (which is also present in his mythology), but I think the unifying aspect here is, while Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf do important work and play an important role, they ultimately themselves are not more important than anyone, anything else in the world, or rather simply the world and creation itself. We like to think we‘re running the show and we‘re in control and to its most extreme this leads to the Sauron archetype, but in the end, we all have a role to play in the world and must eventually die and are forgotten. Even though a lot of people still know who Caesar was and broadly what he had done, I‘d say fewer actually know anything about his life, his successes, his failures, his children, his friends, allies and enemies, beyond those interested in that particular time period or history in general. We know even less about people and events that haven’t been as well documented as Roman history. For instance, the Vikings barely wrote anything down and much of our knowledge of the intricacies of their lives comes from archaeology and second hand contemporary accounts, which were often biased with opposing cultural views.
Given Tolkein's Catholic faith, I'd say Tom and Goldberry possibly are symbolic of Adam and Eve before the Fall of Man, before temptation, and therefore have no means of being corrupted by sin. We know Eru Ilúvatar hid the creation of his children (Elves and Men) from the Ainur and Maiar but he tells us no more about the coming of his children. Maybe this is a hint?
I discuss the Faramir passage and quote it it's entirety here at the 1:28:45 mark! ua-cam.com/video/1lyOnpWknrk/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing 👍
Could you do a video analysis on the Man of Dunharrow and the disappointing use of this army as a deux machinima in the film.
Very interesting! Sure thing 🙂
I’ve got lots of stupid ideas about Bombadil’s origins. But I don’t see it as an issue to diminish the Ring’s power at all.
What do you think of the depiction of Tom in The Rings of Power?
Good question … I’m still on the fence. I like the actor choice, but I feel he should have been presented as an older character, and is (as of ep4) not as jovial and whimsical as he should be. He’s too focused in his thought, rather than a careless wisdom-giver as in the novel.
In the series he appears reserved in his characterization and not yet fully in command of his personality.
Still, there’s something really likeable about him so far.
But perhaps worst of all: Bombadil in Rhûn? Ugh … ugh …
I suppose you could also argue that other members of the fellowship should have plotted to take he ring if it had such a corruptive presence. If we consider Faramir should have been drawn by it, then why not Aragorn at Bree?
Because the corruption Takes different time Form Character to Character until the effects are visibile, but that's the reason why the fellowship failed because they came to the conclusion that one after another the members would get tempted to take the Ring. Boromir was only the First one where the corruptive Power has shown it's effects. Sorry for my english, it's Not that great
I am incredibly curious to know your opinion on his portrail in the newest released episode of rings of power.
Oh man, why'd you have to break my heart like that? Love your voice and accent, and the content too, but really, Tom Bombadil is your favourite chapter? I feel betrayed. 😭
Hey-ho-derry-dol! Tom Bombadillo!
Samwise also didn't have any real temptation of the ring.. but I totally agree it was probably the right decision made by Jackson
Why do you say that? When he has it, he is definitely tempted to keep it
@@lilyduck4538 that is true. I guess I am more comparing him to Faramir who didn't ever put the ring on. To me Sam resisting the ring in the end is more impressive than Faramir..
I love your accent. Where are you from if you don’t mind me asking?
I don't see anything particularly exceptional about Faramire to that degree. All the members of the fellowship know about the ring and are not tempted by it, other than Boromir. It can only use what is within that person to tempt them. Faramir is not ultimately a man of ambition, that doesnt nean that if it did come into his possession it would not corrupt him over time however, Sam felt its influence when he had it. The rings power is limited, it does not seem to exert any influence on those near to it, who don't know about it. It was in the Shire for decades without impacting the population. Bombadil is an exception, I think you just have to accept he lives outside all the rules that affect any other being.
That makes sense given the character was a pre-existing one that was leavered into the story by Tolkien. Bombadil is one of those aspects of the story which build the idea of a complex and confusing world, not all relevant or concerned with the story we are following. Old Man Willow and the Wights are examples of dangers and evil that is not controled by Sauron, just as Shelob and Smaug are. The Ring isnt all powerful, because Sauron isnt, his reach is great but limited.
It Takes different times for the Ring to corrupt different Characters, it all comes down to how strong their will is to resist the temptation. Boromir was the weakest in that sense, hence why the Ring showed it's effects first on him. That is also the reason why the fellowship failed, because they came to the conclusion that one after another the Ring will tempt them to take it. The Reason why Aragon let Frodo and Sam go, so that none of them where stand in the way of Destroying the Ring Sorry my english is not the best
Alas poor Boromir. It was a sore trial
Just started reading the same edition you are showing 😂
What edition is that as I'm after a copy of that edition myself?
@@Via_The_Void it's Harper Collins 2005 Hardback 1st edition. I think They did an omnibus version as well but not 100% sure if it was this edition of another one.
@@Mark-nh2hs Cheers. I want one the same which says 50th Anniversary edition on it.
The version he's holding is the separate editions. There was a red slipcase omnibus deluxe edition which came out in 2004. There is another omnibus edition which came out in 2013 published by William Morrow and Company which has a similar cover and image but is greyish in colour compared to the cream shown in the video.
@@Mark-nh2hs It's that cream edition he's holding I'm interested in. Can that one be got as a set along with The Two Towers & Return of the King. They'd all have to say 50th Anniversary edition on the slip case. Those are the books I'm after.
necessary
People of strong character, capable of resisting such temptations, have always existed.
Heaven forfend that they should exist in Lord of the Rings, however. Talkien scr*wed up his stories just as much as any other author.
BUT, he could do that. It's just fiction.
Talkien?
@@Hero_Of_Old Yep! Happens to all authors. Editors, too, miss many mistakes and/or contradictions in stories.
In the movie, Faramir’s struggle with temptation (the ring) was too similar to Boromir’s. I like the diversity in the books with regard to how people react to the ring. It doesn’t undercut the themes of temptation or power to me. One good way to not succumb to temptation is to avoid it (lead us not into temptation). And some people are better at that than others.
Concerning Bombadil, I understand the objection of his placement from a narrative perspective (although, as you said, it is a nice reprieve from the black riders). But I see him as a representation of the ideal relationship between man and the natural world. To me, Tolkien seems to be telling us that concerning oneself more with God’s creation and less with the world of men might lead us away from temptation. This is akin to the Christian concept of not being “of the world.” That is not to say that one should be resigned, but that the focus should be towards God.
Anyway, very thoughtful and thought provoking as usual!
Very insightful! Thanks for sharing 🙂 you certainly raise some valid and eye-opening points there 👍
In my heart, Tom Bombadil is simply an avatar or Eru Iluvatar. Why not? If I had created a world, I would want to experience it and I would want to remain a mystery only because it's fun. But we'll never know so no one can argue with this opinion.