The Suspicious Disappearance of the "GoFundMe Hiker" (What REALLY happened?)
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
- The disappearance and discovery of Holly Courtier in Zion National Park.
Edited by @LeviSpangler
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I have dealt with depression my whole life. At one point, i was in such a deep crisis i did not leave my bed for 3 days. in these 3 days, i drank no water and ate no food, peed myself twice and laid on my own waste until my very worried mother came into my apartment and saved me. I hadnt even realized how long i had been lying there. I was very dehydrated, even though i had all the clean water i could wish for 10 steps away from my bed in the bathroom. Depression is no joke, mental issues are no joke. I would have literally wasted away in my bed and died had it not been for my mother, who snapped me out of the crisis and cleaned, fed and hydrated me again.
I'm so glad you're doing better. And I'm really glad you're still with us!
Thanks for sharing and hope you are in a better place now.
The mental condition that you describe seems like it's way more than just depression. I hope you're seeking mental health help from a professional. Prayers
Yes the depression can lead you being lethargic but you should monitor your bloodlevels and your kidneys. You have a great mother❤️
@@Brown-Flow_Joe depression can range from mild symptoms to severe catatonic states like they describe. It's not common, but it can happen. It's a very broad and variable illness, sometimes even in just one individual.
i don't know the accuracy of this, but my father participated in some search and rescue activities in the 60s. He said that sometimes missing people got kinda confused/ paranoid and would hide from searchers.
Interesting. Never heard about this in adults. Many children hide from searchers because they are afraid of the bright search lights, the dogs and, most distressingly, they hide because they are afraid of the punishment they think they will receive when found. The bodies of lost children have been found hidden in hollows mere feet from where searcher looked and called.
Your point about confusion is well taken, though. I've heard about lost people walking across a main road into the bush on the other side to continue being lost.
Panic, stress and anxiety. Poor kids.
Maybe it depends on how long someone has been out there. I know that lack of water can cause someone to sort of lose it.
Darwinism. idiots.
I've heard the same thing reported. I wonder if she had some kind of break, and wasn't able to act normally.
I’ve heard of it happening before as well, especially in the cases where they either are having a mental health issue or one that’s induced from lack of water, being in extreme conditions with little to no sleep, etc. I’ve heard of cases where one woman thought she was being followed by shadow people through the woods on walkie-talkies, so when actual searchers were near her & calling for her, she ran the opposite direction and hid. I think she might have eaten some bad berries or something that were making her hallucinate, and being dehydrated & exhausted on top of that didn’t help the situation. I’ve heard of another case where a group of people were taking magic mushrooms, and one of them wandered off, never to be seen again, and you have to wonder if he got scared from the drugs & ran away from his friends until he got lost & eventually succumbed to the elements.
I agree with you, Kyle. Regardless of the circumstances, the sheriff should not have come out publicly without a full investigation first. It’s ridiculous.
He may have wanted to mitigate any further losses to people donating in various ways if he believe it to be fraud.
She probably did it for attention.
Disagree, the sheriff couldn’t be honest because he would be sued. He played it safe, but fully understood that Holly’s “situation,” was 💯 contrived. Fact.
@@shanek1962. How do you know her situation was “100% contrived”? Are you psychic?
@@silvermainecoons3269 context. She is lying, about what is the question. Nobody is this useless.
@@kirstybrown1185 disagree completely.
If there is one thing the internet has taught me it's that there are a lot more completely useless people than I ever thought possible.
Could someone be this useless? There isn't a doubt in my mind.
It's funny how when things go too well for the missing person, it's hard to believe, even though that's what you ultimately want. Like, it wasn't enough suffering for all the worry lol.
That's actually a really good point. She got lucky, which is exactly what we hope will happen when people go missing, and was found right in the nick of time to actually save her life, and instead of being like, "Thank goodness the stars aligned and she made it out alive!", the sheriff is like, "Our search actually worked and she didn't die? That's suspicious!"
If she had actually died, no one would have been accusing her of faking anything. But because she was miraculously discovered within a day of dying, she must be faking it somehow.
Exactly. So many people, both in the true crime community and unfortunately in law enforcement, treat real tragedies like entertainment. They want drama, mystery, heartbreak, suffering, all the things that make for juicy daytime television. A simple answer isn’t “fun”, it’s gotta be a conspiracy.
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 You summed up perfectly why I hate True Crime podcasts and hate the True Crime community even more!
when that "too well" goes against human biology and science, yeah, people ask questions. thats pretty normal. she still never answered the question about where she got water from. they simply said she didn't drink from the river, okay, so where did she drink from?
@@ndawn90 the sheriff asked reasonable questions. notice how they still dodged the water question. just saying "she didn't drink from the river" doesn't answer the question. where did she get water from? im not saying she faked it, she passed the investigation, but the sheriff had every right to be suspicious. you don't survive that long with no water, and the only water source you do have is a toxic river that will only kill you faster. his statement on her condition was based on experience with other people, again a reasonable question. experienced people don't just accept outliers at face value, and she is an outlier. to anybody with a functioning brain, she would be suspicious af.
What bugs me about the whole, "She would have been dehydrated/nearly dead," thing from the sherrif is that she literally was extremely dehydrated and close to death when she was found. Odds are that she wouldn't have survived another day in the state she was found in.
Also acting like she was going to be behaving completely rationally when it was already known that she struggled with metal health issues, was in the middle of going through a crisis, and then you add on the fact that she had a major head injury, so it's pretty obvious that she wasn't thinking clearly. She was likely either hiding from search teams because of her fear or paranoia, or she wasn't responding to people calling her name for whatever reason. She was only really discovered when she was too weak to hide anymore.
Studies have shown that trauma can impact the brain in the exact same way as a Traumatic Brain Injury, so she was possibly adding a massive concussion to a brain that was already essentially concussed by mental illness. She was obviously not thinking rationally in any way, she was probably defaulting to survival mode.
Same with leaving her cell phone. It's pretty obvious that she was in the mindset of wanting to go off into the wilderness and disconnect from the world for a few days, so leaving her phone made sense with her current state of mind.
Acting like her behavior was supposed to make perfect sense when she was clearly in a bad place mentally is nonsensical.
this makes the most sense, well done
I totally agree! She was likely severely concussed. She was unable to answer anyone calling her name. She was weak to the point of not being able to help herself, and she was severely dehydrated.
She was gone for 12 days, people can only live 3 days without water. The “supposed” lack of water for nearly 2 weeks is impossible.
I have a great bridge to sell you.
@@LiveFree765she obviously found water along the way, there are fresh water streams in the area that she must have drank from, but if you don’t have the equipment to carry that water it’s easy to get dehydrated between finding streams pods or the like.
My opinion. She didn’t stage this disappearance for the money. She was a depressed, mentally ill young woman who wandered into the wilderness alone with an undetermined outcome in mind. Not carrying a cell phone with her and not telling anyone her plans was a huge red flag for me.
I think you may have nailed it. The term “spiritual journey” raised red flags to me. These types of experiences can make a person crazy, and she does have crazed eyes. I hope she gets better spiritually and mentally. 🙏🏻
No cell phone is huge. She coulda taken it and kept it turned off. But imo she didnt want her movements tracked.
If you're dying of thirst and hear people walking nearby calling..you can swallow the water......if you were dying of thirst I dont think you could keep from drinking the water.
Nonetheless Jimmie, then her loved ones should have supported her not victimized her and enabled her as they 100 did. Kyle can cover the 30,000 ft, superficial view. This was a plan, maybe a mental plan, but a plan nonetheless the less. She should be accountable. I helped in the search.
For one the family couldn't foresee how much money they would receive through go fund me. Go fund me is a crap shoot you never know how much money people would've donated.
@@gracegirl2206 Absolutely! if dying of thirst, YOU WILL DRINK ANYTHING. How were her lips when found, any pictures of the moment?
Based on your account, my personal opinion is that mental health issues took center stage for her and those who do not have those issues or loved ones who have those issues have not a clue when minds operate outside of what they may consider norm. Glad she was found and is ok.
Is the items she took “normal” for her to take on a day hike. Does your mind think inside the box?
I agree with your positive thoughts and comment
Me too! Glad she is alright
I agree. The circumstances of the 'disappearance' read like a breakdown. The environment is incidental. It's the only thing that makes sense.
@@AWAKEBUTNOTWOKE yes normal for a day hike.
You do know you should take some sort of ermergency shelter/blanket/sleeping bag and warm clothes if you are heading into the wilderness, even on a day hike?
No? Well now you do. I bet you'd be criticising her if she didn't...she can't win.
The fact that the family said they would reimburse anyone who wanted their money back shows me that they were more concerned with just finding her, rather than the money.
I’ve been severely dehydrated, it’s makes you so so exhausted and unable to go more than a few feet without resting. Which her family said happened. So, they should have called an ambulance for her. I agree that law enforcement should have kept their mouths shut until they had all the facts- or maybe they wanted to shift focus to her so no one would criticize them? Whichever, I’m just glad she was found!
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to drive her to the hospital themselves because they didn't believe an ambulance was absolutely required. People are hesitant to use an ambulance due to the cost. She was unemployed, who knows what her health insurance plan looked like, if she was insured at all.
US Healthcare at its finest.
Being severely dehydrated can cause confusion too
@@CleaveBuscemi That's a good point. I was thinking that if someone's been missing that long they should be taken to the hospital by default no matter how fine they seem but I forgot how expensive ambulances are in the US so it would be understandable if her family wanted to take her for that reason.
I've been in that situation where I was severely dehydrated due to illness, extreme heat, and eventually throwing up what little water was left in my stomach. I couldn't even rehydrate by drinking because nothing was staying down. It was the worst and weakest I've ever felt in my life. I was so weak that I slumped down on a seat and couldn't move one inch. I asked my team leader (we were coming home from a trip) to quickly call paramedics because I had zero strength, I could barely even speak and I was breathing deeply but still felt like I wasn't getting enough oxygen. I was disoriented too.
Eventually they placed me on a stretcher, took me to a hospital and I got multiple bags of IV fluid and some medicine. Couldn't believe how much better I felt once my body quickly received the fluids it so desperately needed.
Dehydration is no joke. Even a day without water can lead to severe sickness and weakness if you're already sick or if it's extremely hot. Stay safe everyone, and always drink plenty of water!
@@DragonRebelRoseThat's terrifying! I'm so glad you are okay
This case really bothered me at the time. Her daughter was acting so strangely. I donated to the GoFundMe and then asked for a refund when the authorities walked her out and said the information didn't add up. I did get my money back.
Good on u ✌️😉
Something that strikes me is how old was her daughter? It would seem highly irregular to go on a van camping trip like this for that extent with a daughter at home.
I thought it suspicious too. But didn't donate..
Well that's good ig
@@gbosearcher-3686 good move ✌️
Even if she did commit fraud, it would be very hard to put her up on trial. The careless statements the sheriff made would of biased any jury pool they would gather in that state. His answer should have been "I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation." and nothing more.
Simp
@@Menstral Oh noes some rando thinks I am a simp. How will I ever cope?🙄
ummm… No
No one is scamming go fund me for 12k that leads to them in that sort of condition. Laying there and occasionally drinking some rainwater or w/e is not worth doing for a grand a day pain and suffering. Nope.
I think the critics were suggesting she didn't actually suffer at all, and somehow snuck in and out and back in undetected. A silly accusation as well IMO.
Why would you assume she didn't get in a car and go stay with an accomplice for eleven days before returning and being found?
@@chrissaunders8284 Because she was half dead and lost 18lbs. My bet is she does indeed have a mental ilness and had a breakdown out there.
@astucity for a large sum of cash, would you not eat and not shower for two weeks? Don't be naive. She had nothing to drink. She wouldn't have survived without water. She was so dehydrated she "couldn't open her mouth" but she could get up and mark a line on a tree to count the days. She had no cell phone? It would have been simple enough to clarify what she *did* drink. They only clarified she didn't drink the water with the blue-green algae, which a person dying of thirst would have drank even *if* informed of the danger. People stranded out to sea drink salt-water to their demise. I don't buy the story.
Depends how much you need the money
Lot of crap to go through for a mere 12 grand. Not making light of 12 grand but still to endanger oneself for 12 grand is insane.
My thoughts exactly. I don't think this was her intent. 😢
It wasn't meant to be 12 grand that's just when it was shut down because people were asking questions. 1 of the reasons for the questioning was apparently a neighbor said she had posted on social media discussing with her daughter about faking getting lost and survive to get a movie deal later on. But the post was deleted before this hiking trip took place.
How man people make $6,000 a week? That's $150/hr.
I've been through a lot of traumatic things and I could 110% see someone getting lost and being found close to their parking lot. Sometimes thinking becomes extremely foggy and you do random weird things you normally would not. Glad Holly is ok and I hope she is living her best life.
If you watch this channel and other similar channels more than one person has beem found dead in the wilderness a mile or so from salvation. Skeletal remains are found in areas that have been searched more than once so her being found in an areas near foot traffic doesn't mean much.
I agree with your comment
Why didn’t the searchers find her then why didn’t she answer or appear
2 weeks no water. BULLSHIT
Your story telling and having a take away of some sort is one of a kind. Respectful with a take away to stay humble and smart.
I love how you do these videos, always with respect and no wild judgment. We all have our opinions and these stories are good to learn from.
Ive had head injuries from falling off horses.
You do very very strange things.
Quote from an article about the investigation, Fitzgerald being the cheif ranger:
'"She is completely detached from reality but not a danger to herself or others so we released her to the family. Crazy," Fitzgerald said.'
So yeah, she probably was moving around and ambulatory for most if the time, and potentially drinking from safe water sources. She was just having a rather severe break from reality, from the sounds of it. The details of that wouldn't be released because it's none of our business what mental health diagnosis she may or may not have.
That toxic algae bloom in the river meant she definitely had other water sources. Likely the picnic area that was a couple hundred yards from where she was at. This is the main canyon which receives millions of visitors a year; a highly trafficked paved road was within a hundred yards of her, and an extremely trafficked trail on the other side of the river. If she had wanted to be found she could have at any point. She must have been experiencing some 'psychosis' or some similar thing that made her keep hiding.
I think your opinion is correct Kyle, I thought the same!! There's always questions and suspicions when people disappear and when they "return", but unless there's evidence saying different I believe you give the benefit of doubt to the person! As always, thanks for the work and care you put into the stories, your very much appreciated!!
Yeah just like Sherri Papini
That sheriff looks like he'd pull you over for tinted windows without even having tinted windows.
😂😂😂😂
Exactly
U sound like the person that maybe does need searching
I have a theory. Maybe she freaked out when she realized people were looking for her. She was possibly embarrassed and ashamed, mental illness can exacerbate such emotions and even cause them in some cases. I'm assuming (emphasis on the word "assumption") that she would actively avoid detection during the day when she heard/saw searchers and at night would sneak around to get/find clean water. This is a high traffic area and the only valid accusation is how she survived without clean water. When you add to the story that she was so close to the parking lot she could have scavaged trash bins, used a drinking fountain etc. This behavior would still result in at least minor dehydration. As for the theory that she started a go fund me for profit (mind you it included travel/lodging for family) I'm not even going to bother entertaining the idea. Either way you look at it she has a wonderful family and the sherriff was the bad guy in this story. What a total douchebag.
This was 100% my thinking after hearing the story. Possibly didn’t want to be found for whatever personal reasons. But we can all only assume, you are correct on that part for sure!
I really think this is the correct theory. She’s probably so ashamed inside about it. I hope she gets better mentally. It’s REALLY hard losing a job: maybe she went out there as an attempt on her life and changed her mind but then realized it had turned into this huge thing and she was too scared to come show herself so just waited there in the hammock until someone found her. (Probably sneaking sips from the dumpster and/or water fountain in the darkness of night) just a theory. I don’t know what really happened
I was kind of ‘thinking’ along the same lines as you. Her actions may have been influenced by some mental illness and so the events surrounding her being missing for 12 days seem to have some strange circumstances (things that may not quite add up) due to that. It does seem like something was off with the whole situation, but again, if she was experiencing mental illness… she probably wasn’t thinking rationally. Her family probably started the GoFundMe not knowing all the circumstances themselves. When the Sheriff decided to publicize information he should’ve kept private… maybe they didn’t know how to respond due to all the backlash that they received, and things just got blown out of proportion. Maybe they exaggerated her condition (when she was found) because they also felt bad about the whole situation. I’m sure it was a lot of pressure being attacked by the public.
All just speculation, but it seems like a case where a woman was suffering from mental illness, and as far as her family is concerned… they probably didn’t know the circumstances of what was going on.. they just wanted to find their loved one.
This makes a lot of sense to me, as someone who struggles with mental health issues
@@court687The family probably knew she needed mental health treatment and wanted to raise money for that as well. She had lost her job, so she didn't have insurance.
My dad was sick and in nursing care after almost 3 mo with no food all fluids were stopped. His Dr said he was so weak he wouldn't last a day or 2. He didn't pass until the 11 morning.
Dif people can manage to do grand and great things
It’s cruel to stop all water and nourishment! It’s euthanasia!
Thats so awful im sorry your father had to experience that end to his life. He sounds like a very strong man. I watched both my father and grandfather pass in the same manner. Death with dignity need to be talked about more often. I wish there had been a good way to help them pass saving those last few horrible week's. Much love to you may our ends come with more peace than those whom have come before us.
Great video. Taking sufficient water, a cell phone and sat phone and a way to filter, even toxic water are essential in these types of hikes. Adding to that, telling someone exactly where you are going is really important. How she survived is at question here. The officer who went public about his doubts did that in an unprofessional way. I’m glad she was found by another hiker and I’m glad that her family got her back. Let us take heed. Be prepared. You can slip and fall, blow out your knee, get lost….many things can happen out there. You are only alone if nobody knows where you are and cannot get to you. Don’t be alone out there.
IMO she didn't stage her own disappearance...There is so many different ways to make money, that is way easier than going into the woods to "get lost" for almost two weeks...Which is another reason I don't think it was staged...I'm sure if she wanted to "be lost" and then "get found", she wouldn't want to "be lost" for close to two weeks, especially with the little bit of water she had...Plus her family offering refunds to any and all who felt like they had been duped out of their donation, and actually got the money back, so I hear, that is not something somebody would do if they were staging an event like that, ESPECIALLY after they were investigated and no charges were ever brought...And to all those who shamed her, and still feel like she staged this, just remember, it's "innocent until proven guilty", not the other way around, and if the sheriffs office investigated and found nothing suspicious, that should be a good sign that nothing fishy is going on...
innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard. Guilty until proven innocent is a good way to protect yourself from scams and other harm.
"Especially with the little bit of water she had..."
Smells to me she made sure to have enough water for the vacation. Why haven't we heard from her again? why the family spoke person?
people do these things for attention, not money
offering the money back as soon as suspicions arise is EXACTLY what a scammer would do, to give a false sense of; oh well, they offering to give it back with no problems, so it must be legit. So that in itself proofs nothing. Not saying that this was the case( since honest people/company would do the same), just saying that your reasoning is flawed, because a smart scammer would just do exactly that, offering to pay it all back in the hopes that this will reasure the doubters to keep their money in the project ( or whatever they gave money for), because they don't want the doubter to pull out ( there's more money to get from that piggybank after all).
Someone who has obviously never been forced to navigate the judicial system.
Why do we know what the search cost but not what the investigation cost? I hear people complaining about the cost to find "idiots who got themselves lost" all the time but I've never heard the same people complain about frivolous investigations carried out because of rumors or an aggrieved official. Regardless I think the sherrif should have voiced his doubts privately so they could be looked into rather than publicly so randoms could freak out online.
Countless people have gone missing and wind up being found within a mile or less of where they were last seen additionally, they’re found more often than not dead, and they are found in areas previously searched.Regardless… she was found alive and that’s all that matters!
I'm glad that Holly is okay.
Dont tell these know it alls that. They, like the fat cop, know everything.
In Russia we say “put your energy into right route”.
That sheriff guy put all his energy into wrong route. It’s ok for him to speculate and investigate. After all it is his job. But he shouldn’t made his concerns public until he had gathered some solid evidence. This attracted too much unwanted negative attention to family that was already going trough a lot.
Found this bit of information researching water at Zion Park. It cited cyanotoxins as a health hazard.
"Most camping and home water filters and purifiers will not remove these toxins from drinking water. Only reverse osmosis treatment units, and special carbon treatment units certified to remove microcystins (under NSF P477) are known to be effective."
I just looked up how long the police officer training takes in Utah. Assuming that I found the right info (I'm not a native English speaker, nor am I from the USA), the basic training is 12-18 weeks. It's no surprise you get at least some people who don't know when not to talk to the media with that kind of, uhm, abridged education.
How the state can rely on someone with a 3-month training to solve critical situations is a mystery in itself.
Not to mention that many law enforcement agencies have an intelligence cap. You can literally be too smart to work for them… scary thought.
Not to mention that many law enforcement agencies in the United States have an intelligence cap for employees. You can literally be too smart to be a cop… scary thought.
Misogyny at its finest (a staple of law enforcement) “Oh, she’s a woman who got lost hiking? Yeah obviously her and her sister staged the whole thing”. Despicable.
Oh you don't know the half of it!
Pretty much all police departments, among other screenings, will give applicants something very much like an IQ test and they have a lower limit, which makes sense to everyone I think, but what a lot of peopledon't know is they also have an upper limit!
Meaning if someone scores too high, they are less likely to be accepted for police training.
The rationale, at least that has been given to journalists who question this, is that people who are intellectually gifted are more likely to get bored with police work and leave the job, so a lot of departments decide that the best return on the tax dollars spent training officers is to recruit from a kind of goldilocks range of people who aren't too slow to succeed at the job, but also aren't so smart they'll decide it's not intellectually stimulating enough.
So in a lot of departments you can literally be too smart to be a cop by their own assessment!
@@sandpiperr It's the opposite where I live. Sure, there are the physical requirements, etc you have to fulfill.
But to become a police officer - just a regular officer - it's a 3-year program.
To get into higher positions (e.g. commissioner, I think that's the correct translation) you have to study for 3 years and earn a bachelor's degree at the end of it.
They all get paid during those 3 years, but really not much. And there are ways to get from the regular to the higher positions without an extra 3 years, but I'm not too sure how that works.
And then there are things like:
- must have a driver's license
- must be able to swim to a certain standardized degree
- must not have any racist etc tattoos - yes they check that
- don't be in debt
- a character assessment (well, multiple throughout the 3 years)
It seems pretty clear to me her mental state before, during and after holds the answer to the mystery. It is possible she went out there with the intention of just laying in her hammock and checking out. It is not clear or mentioned if she had any water with her to start with, maybe a Nalgene or something. If conserved it could keep the clock from ticking for several days. An Austrian bricklayer was accidently left locked in a holding cell for 18 days without water or food and survived. It is in the Guiness Book of World Records.
The saddest part of this story is that we still have natural water systems that are so polluted that it isn't even safe to drink it filtered.
Yep
I hope it doesn’t kill the wildlife. I’d love to know what exactly has made that running water deadly?
There are people who's job is to chill by certain bodies of polluted water and shoot at animals that go near it to scare them away. Crazy to think about.
@@Saphire_Throated_Carpenter_Ant For real , that's a job? I'm skeptical..
The Virgin River in Zion is not polluted from human interference. It’s cause by an Algae bloom that releases Cyanobacteria that cannot be filtered out with standard recreational filters.
As someone who travels the back country, I find it a bit weird when people find a lack of cell phone immediately suspicious.
I don't know this area, but I've been in plenty of areas where the only emergency use of a cell phone is as a GPS device, and only if one has an offline mapping application.
(Regardless, always bring paper maps. I tend to have official maps in my pack, and print out a small map for each day's travel.)
To get to the trail it’s probably 100 meters from her hide-n-go-seek spot, and Zion is a zoo; tons of people on that trail daily .
@@_nick_dAnd..? So why haven’t other people approach her and given assistance? Maybe because , although close by, they could not see her, due to the vegetation!
Or if they did see her, they didn’t comprehend that she was in distress, bc they failed to check, to try to talk with her! People tend to give others privacy and leave them alone! Depends on the culture and how nosy people are!
How do u think people die in the apartment buildings? Or in the hospital bed? Because no one bothered to check or think someone else had already checked!
I was living in the area at the time, and for what it's worth, the sheriff said what many locals, myself included, felt about the whole case. It just didn't add up. Should he have kept it to himself at the time, probably. But his speculations were not unreasonable based on the river (full of Cyanobacteria which affect the liver and nervous system) but she supposedly made it 12 days by not drinking the from the river (?). Also, the terrain right by the river is fairly sandy and not particularly steep with shrubs and trees, and not crazy dense. Then add being that close to an unbelievably crowded trail and trailhead for 12 days and yet, not being seen is stunning. Zion can get almost 400,000 visitors in October alone and the Grotto is one of the most popular trailheads in the park as it's the start to Angel's Landing and also the northern entry to the whole Emerald Pools area. However, I do feel that she was doing an inadverdant, unplanned disappearance in the back country due to mental stress, depression, anxiety, etc. But was it only for a couple of days, weeks, or until she died? Maybe she'll talk about it some day, but until then, there were and are a whole lot of 'WTF' vibes.
If she was having a mental breakdown and a spiritual hike l think that sums up here ability to keep track of anything that was going on in her mind be it real or imagined.
I bet the sheriff thinks that Man landed on the Moon even though Nasa claims to have lost the data.
So his opinion means nothing.
I couldn't agree more. NPS used a drone with night vision and thermal and still didn't find her.
agreed this is pretty sus
It's because when you start pulling out GoFundMe people question the motives without the GoFundMe I don't think the motive would have been a concern
I would say her MH issue equated to her wanting to have a spiritual revelation or die trying. She hid until she couldnt hide anymore due to poor health.
I can absolutely relate to seeking the solice of nature when struggling. I have CPTSD, ADHD, and Autism and have struggled with my mood for many years of my shortish millennial life. The pandemic became the catalyst that got me to explore public land camping, finally! For me exploring down those back roads was hella healing when I was very mentally unwell. I even enjoyed getting my Subaru stuck and having to walk down the road to ask for help from a random camping spot fortunately not far away. Learning from oopsies in nature is a part of the fun and personal growth, when you're prepared to tackle them, but the obvs worst happens sometimes.
I relate a lot to Holly and can empathize with what motivated her to seek the glory of nature. The Sheriff dealt with this terribly in my opinion. Considering the mind state of the victim and how that would affect mistakes is just as plausible of a theory to check into as fraud was, if not more plausible. She did not need the suspicion put on her plate when it was obviously already full with depression and newly acquired trauma from the incident.
Yes. I’ve literally abandoned basically everything except my comfort items and I’ll be gone for hours with no way of anyone being able to contact me bc no phone while I dissociate on a walk in nature areas. I’ve done it quite a few times and I’ll return to a place people know me (home, friends house, etc) when I’m ready to interact with people again. Sometimes I just need to get away from my life for a few hours
❤❤❤
Victimhood is awesome.
@@user-hs4ih8zp7e must be nice to never self reflect and try to understand and love yourself even with your flaws.
Well stated, thanks for sharing your view. I'm thinking along the same lines.
I was in Zion at this exact time!!! It was kind of odd, because the hike she went on or went missing on, was on the west side of Zion, the east side kind of was more open, what I mean is Zion is like a valley, it’s surrounded by massive rock mountains, that’s what Angels Landing is, a large rock mountain on the west side. Then there is the narrows in the north of the park, and that’s a trail between massive rock mountains. I just couldn’t understand how they couldn’t find her, given the trail she went on didn’t really climb in height. And surrounded by mountains. It was during Covid but the Zion park was still absolutely filled with massive amounts of people. There is a hotel in the park, and the hotel was super close to the trail she was lost on. Anyways I was there during her missing episode and there were tons of signs up about her missing. Also there were tons of signs up about the situation in the water, because many dogs had died. We hiked the narrows but were told if we had open foot wounds to not do that hike. We were all very worried though but I never looked into it or even read the reports after her finding so this is all news to me. I also just want to add, that you should never leave a trail, ever. Not only for your own safety but because you are potentially disturbing an ecosystem when you do so. We already impose so much on nature, as humans when we hike through these zones. There are countless signs in every national park telling you not to leave the trail, so just don’t.
That's sad about the dogs. That it's called virgin river and is so toxic ....
The photo you use for the Kayenta/Emerald pools trail, is actually the subway trail in Zion! both hikes are beautiful. Subway is a permit hike that is much longer. sadly, I just moved to Nebraska, but Zion used to be my backyard when I lived in Utah. Love your videos, Kyle!❤
There's also a night-time pic of Australia's Uluru that is on a completely different continent. But whatever. Kyle's just being creative.
I’m an avid hiker and find it really odd that she would take so much with her for just a day hike. That’s not usual. I find it suspicious but that’s my intake on it.
Hmm. Yeah. I think she might have had a half-baked plan to stay out there until she "found herself" or something. Seems as likely as she masterminded the GoFundMe thing.
@@meaningoftheunicorn Being in the main canyon she was also at most just a couple of hundred yards away from the road or trail that receives millions of visitors a year. She could have been found at any point had she wanted to or had the wherewithal to.
@@meaningoftheunicorn How exactly do you think she could've masterminded a gofundme while she was without cell service and slowly starving the whole time? Seems pretty obvious she had underlying mental health issues that, possibly coupled the head trauma she was discovered with, led to a break with reality and extremely erratic behavior. People just want to ascribe malicious intent to a mental health crisis because that's easier than having sympathy for the crazy person, I guess.
“If she drank from the virgin river she’d be extremely ill or passed by now”
Her: extremely ill, weak, and injured
No, she wasn't ill
💯
@@BRGPF1TEAMToo dehydrated to talk isn't extremely ill? Losing 18 pounds in 12 days isn't extremely ill?
@@hannahp1108 No, she was weak, not ill
@@hannahp1108 That was what the family said, the search and rescue report didn't seem to corroborate that.
I started a GoFundMe for my sister while my young nephew was fighting cancer. It was quite a process and they list in the conditions that they can request proof that the money went where you said it was going. I suppose this could be thru a court order. Then the bank verifies everything so I would think it would be hard to “fake”
Ppl do it all the time.
That's only if you state the money is going to someone other than yourself. I know from personal experience.
@@octosquatch. She didn’t start it for herself. Everyone was paid back, who asked for a refund.
Crazy person eyes are a real thing, and this lady has some of the craziest eyes anyone has ever seen.
My motto: "Before you go, let someone know!" I teach this to home school kids along with signaling & sheltering. I also teach them "Pack like you don't know what will happen."
If I ever do any serious hiking, I would definitely bring a solar charger that I could use to power my cellphone. I don’t know if those GPS units with SOS capabilities are rechargeable, but I’d have one of those, too. Kyle has convinced me of this much! Also I’d bring some waterproof matches, signal mirror and something to filter water.
The biggest mistakes that national agencies and critics make is assuming that every disappearance is the same. Every disappearance is different there’s no one where that people go missing or a rescue. It’s so sad to see so many cynical people out there that are just ready to judge the problems of other people without knowing anything about about it themselves
Thank you Kyle, or providing temperatures in Celsius.
We appreciate it.
These cases are so hard to watch!!.I cannot believe what they did to her I’m a mom and it’s totally mindblowing and heartbreaking 💔 😅
Sad story that could have turned out a lot worse. I suppose that cop could have been responding to criticism of their inability to find her for so long given where she was found and got defensive... but no, does not look like he handled it well. I hope she is doing okay now.
Thanks for the reminder about letting someone know your plans when you hike, even a day hike. Absolutely crucial. And the same goes for kayakers, paddlers, sailors. I never go paddle boarding without making sure my husband knows exactly what route.
My last name is Courter and the way you pronounced her last name is how many pronounce mine. You’re correct on hers. Mine is pronounced like “quarter”
Clearly, there are a lot of unanswered questions in this case. So I can understand why people would be skeptical of the details. But I hope everything is better for the survivors.
Dude! I’m so glad you’re covering this. Not sure if it’s coincidence that I mentioned it to you last week on Instagram but really happy to see this!
After I completed the A.T. in the year 2018 my step-uncle tried to capitalize off of it. It was really embarrassing for me. He thought that newstations would pay me for the story about my hike. My step-uncle had me ask a newspaper for payment for my story. I didn't want to do it as thats not why I was hiking the A.T. or talking to the Newspaper.
Hiking the AT is definitely a praiseworthy feat but it’s hardly a rare thing for a person to achieve. Certainly it’s not like mountain climbing in the Himalayas. Your uncle must not be very knowledgeable about through-hiking. 😊
@@silvermainecoons3269 My step-uncle was not.
So he didn’t try to capitalize off of it, he wanted YOU to capitalize off of it.
@@ravenclaw832 no my step-uncle wanted the money.
@@silvermainecoons3269 you're insulting and talking about things you've never done yourself.
All Osprey backpacks include whistles. If a lost hiker can't call out they can use it to alert searchers.
She was severely dehydrated and couldn’t speak, she likely couldn’t use the whistle
I have over half a dozen Osprey Packs ranging in size from small sling packs to medium size day packs, 3 to 21liters probably. Purchased over an approximate 15-20yr period to the present of past 1-2yrs. None came with a whistle to my knowledge and I’m very aware of bonus items with purchases, like company stickers that are part of item description tag. Id be surprised if I missed 6-8 free Osprey Whistles especially because I’ve purchased that many in same timeframe, for use of emergency and dog calling.
@@lemonadej.b.c.2077 the whistle is part of the shape on the sternum strap buckle.
@@lemonadej.b.c.2077check your chest strap buckles -- they are almost always whistles on Osprey packs
@lemonadej.b.c.2077 check out the chest strap. Most have them integrated
What I get a kick out of is she didn't even leave the canyon proper. She was lost IN Zion Canyon. Vertical rock walls, with a river and a road, and very little space in between. Every 15 minutes a shuttle bus goes by that you can SEE and HEAR from virtually every spot along the Virgin River in the eight mile long canyon.
Yea the time I visited it was packed people everywhere….i dunno where I would hide lol
Exactly. I know Kyle is being kind here. It's very hard to get lost in the main canyon. You know the river leads to Springdale. And the walls lead out to springdale. The river either goes to Springdale or the narrows the most popular feature in Zion so you know help would be there. I don't care how much you fast hunger would overtake you and you'd venture out to find something. I'm very suspicious of this case.
You have omitted the Fact that she seriously hurt her head and was disoriented and confused! The Ranger stated that when she was found she wasn’t making sense, out-of-touch with reality!
Also, she was behind the vegetation!
@@lenitaa7938 but SAR searched was close to the area. And thermal and night vision drone was used in the area she was found.
@@YosemiteJ What is with people being unable to comprehend the idea that someone might not be thinking or acting in a way that reflects reality? It's obvious she wasn't all there when they found her, and her own family has said she wasn't even all there when she started the hike.
I have had to re- subscribe to your channel 3 times now. I am glad I recheck. Not sure what the heck is going on, but thought I would let you know.
It's happening to so many channels, this is the third channel today.
I just noticed today I wasn’t subscribed anymore as well. Odd.
Me too.
We've been to zion and the grotto trail. If I recall correctly, there is water weeping down the walls of this trail. She could have been using this as a water source during her time out there while she was lost due to the head injury. And yes, with all the foot traffic in the virgin river doing the narrows hike, the water is tainted eith feces and urine......
There was a toxic Cyanobacteria bloom, so it wasn't just tainted water. You would have to have had a charcoal filter to safely drink it. Even then I wouldn't risk it.
Kyle, I just wanted to let you know that for some reason I have had to resubcribe to your channel 20 - 30 times!!! I don't even know why this could be. I first subscribed to you a couple of years ago I think. Your videos always come up in my "recommendations", but almost every time I check, I have to subscribe again! I don't know if it's some kind of clitch with your channel or with UA-cam or what. I just wanted to let you know about it. By the way, I love your content! Keep doing what you do.
*5:45** KUDOS again for also using degrees Celsius!*
*Much obliged.*
FYI--Utah local here. Nobody FROM here calls it "Zi-AWN." That's a dead giveaway for a non-local. It's "Zi-uhn" (rhymes with "lion").
Her water consumption ~ after three to five days of no water the brain and other organs begin to fail or shut down, your kidneys will fail and your brain will get brain fog/mental fog which makes perfect sense along with a minor concussion from set head injury and her history of mental illnesses can be the cause of disoriented movements or no movements after three days. The classic rule of 3 is sometimes considered not that accurate as we have documented people surviving without water passes 6 days. Your throat and saliva will be dried af, I'm a person that deals with chronic dehydration every day. It is a very confusing case. I won't comment on anything else. Just wanted to add the water speculation.
Love and appreciate how unbiased you are when you report these stories. 😊👍
IMO she didn't stage her disappearance for $12k go fund me cash.
She had well documented mental health issues and therefore her family shouldn't have allowed her to take that trip to Zion on her own. At the very least she should have detailed the route she was going to take on the trip.
How much water can you carry to last 12 days? Did she have any water bottles with her and was any water source found close by, these are easily answered questions with a little investigating the sheriff could have found out. Issues of fraud by a hiker should be handled by people who have the expertise to make judgements. I am not convinced she was lost and I think she simply wanted to be off inside herself and be alone. Glad she was found and is doing well. I am from Maine and hike in NH where i buy insurance that covers any mishap requiring search and rescue from the State and would recommend people look into this, as it saves you a lot of money if you need help. At 76 and still hiking I enjoy watching and listening to you, you have that rare gift that allows you to be unbiased and not following popular opinion. My magic ball says you should follow through with media commentaries and make a career of it.
Yes you need around 2 litres a day, you can get by on 1 litre and you can survive for around 3 days without water. If she was dehydrated we can assume she didnt have water for 2 days meaning she would have had to carry around 10 litres of water with her. Thats a lot of water, its very heavy. Also how would she know that a nearby water source was contaminated if she didnt know where she was or was so confused she couldnt work that out? This doesnt make any sense at all, I think this alone is enough to seriously question the official story.
@@paulosullivan3472 I think regarding her knowledge of the waters poison it's as simple as her not knowing it was poison and instead had the common knowledge to avoid drinking from rivers, and after hearing what the sheriff had to say simply stated that she knew it was poison to make herself seem smarter and more aware.
Of course you're right in that it's suspicious. If you're alive and breathing, why is it so hard to explain how? Yet she provides, apparently, nothing. That's mega sus.
I've done some backpacking in the needles district of canyonlands national Park in Utah and you do need a hefty amount of water. You're right that you'd need to carry a lot and in her case 2 weeks worth would need a crapton; It would be hard to conceal.
I would provide an opinion but I know this case will go unresolved, and frankly who cares? She's alive, everything's well. It was only 12K. Going back to investigate will just cost more money. I know that's not a good attitude to have but it's the truth. The Official story will forever be questioned.
When we backpack, 3 liters of water weighs just under 7 lbs (6.6lbs), so say even ten days of water - that’s 66 lbs of water to carry 🤯😳 you absolutely need a fresh source of water for that long. This story is just bizarre.
@@paulosullivan3472One can survive longer than 3 days without water! It depends on many factors, such as the person’s health, mass, previous hydration, weather, how accustomed they are to doing without, air humidity, temps, the location, the foods one eats, the clothes one wears, how active a person is during the dehydration days, etc etc! ‚
The ‚ Three-days- rule‘ is just an estimation and way too simplistic, bc if u are in a desert, high temps, no shade, a person won’t survive a day! But if one is in a humid environment, as she was, beside a river, in a shade, inactive in a hammock, etc, and had water for some days before she ran out, she can survive longer!
Maybe she drank the morning dew from the leaves, for all we know!
Either way, she deserves compassion and a benefit of a doubt!!
@@paulosullivan3472Just because she was confused from hitting her head and dehydration, it doesn’t mean that she didn’t have an inner sense of that „she must Not drink the river water!“
There were signs everywhere, many people have stated! Her brain remembered on some level!
The level and types of confusion varies from person to person , depending on the variables and the cause!
Look, it’s hard to comprehend or to relate to a certain person‘s experience if we never gone through the same or similar experience!
It seems her brain was damaged from the fall, and her terrible ordeal further affected her! Just because we find it hard to comprehend or explain each part she went through, it does not mean it didn’t happen the way she and her rescuers said it did! Stranger things happen in life! It does not make them impossible nor improbable!
There are many accounts of people surviving when they should not have due to extreme conditions!
What is wrong is to malign her on social media! She went through a terrible ordeal! Let’s leave her alone to live her life and wish her well!
Thank you, Kyle. That is a sad story. You always help hikers with your info.
I had mixed feelings about this case when it was in the news, and I think it's because there have been other instances where a family raised money with a gofundme and a hospital claimed the proceeds. I wondered if the police were going to try suing for the proceeds. It seemed to fit with them talking about the cost of the search efforts. On the other hand I did question why she took so much with her for a couple hour hike, and somehow decided not to bring her van or her phone. I could see MAYBE leaving your phone in the car if it was close by, but who doesn't take pictures with their phone in a place like this. And maybe she had enough water for a day or 2, but not for 12 days. And lastly, if she was somewhere close to where thousands of people walk through the park every day why didn't searchers or other people see her sooner? I think close is a relative term in this situation. And lots of people have been close to a trail or a road but we're still lost and died.
Leaving her van is fairly explainable. Zion National Park tries to eliminate vehicle traffic within the canyon as much as possible. At a certain point in the canyon, the only way to get up and back is to take the park service shuttle. There is a parking lot at the Grotto, but it's very tiny and fills up quickly. Also they charge $40 to park, so most people choose to park in Springdale and use the shuttle instead.
As for leaving her phone, that could also be explained if she was trying to disconnect from life/reality for a few days, or maybe she assumed she wouldn't have service so decided just to leave it behind.
I agree with you 100%. It is suspect that she didn’t bring her phone and the items she brought on her day hike.
Many are found not far from where many people are walking through.
$1000 a day, that’s what the Go Fund Me had raised?
She could easily raise the $ and not have been made to be embarrassed. She’s cute, has access to some of the most gorgeous areas in the US, has some experience. She can easily make a channel and make $.
The head injury is a real issue as is being so dehydrated she can’t open her mouth . It baffles me why anyone would allow her to walk out out. The rescuers should be questioned, possibly charged.
Questioning the situation publicly is very unprofessional behavior!
If this officer is so concerned about the money spent to find this woman, he is in the wrong position with the department. The $ was well spent bc she was found.
Leaving her phone to disconnect for a few days on a day hike?
Yeah that’s questionable!
Your statement is silly.
Well the money was raised for pay for search parties and equipment to look for her and anything left over would go back to everyone who donated... It was never for her personally and should not go directly to her that would be ridiculous.
Did they send money to compensate for the search parties and equipment? I missed that part of the story.
Why wouldn't the remainder go to the family personally? Isn't that what a GoFundMe is for? People know they are donating personally and hope the funds get used for good cause? As long as all of it isn't a scam I can't stand when people give but then insist on placing their own stipulations. Don't give if you aren't just giving for the goodness of it.
@@tiktokmashupss7991 Like when Sherri Papini's husband set up a GFM after her disappearance, then used the proceeds to pay off their debts? People who donate money don't know that the recipients are going to use the monies for their own selfish gains.
The money was also for the family travel expenses and medical care stated in the video. Searches in the wilderness are the responsibility of the County Sheriff's office. They don't need more money to search. If you are hiring a private party to search and you have to pay them, I recommend you reconsider using them.
First, the family shouldn't have mentioned money going toward search and rescue efforts if they didn't give the money for those services. Second, there are times when a fine is imposed if it's determined that a hiker or backpacker was irresponsible and put others at risk. Do a Google search about it with the White Mountains. The fines and penalties do happen. Third, the family would have to pay if medevac helicopter was involved. Dixie faced a huge bill for this when she hit her SOS button for rescue. When it comes to GoFundMe campaigns, people have to be very careful and precise with their pleas for donations. A lack of trust in the GoFundMe system could adversely affect people wanting to give money. @@dirtrider9268
I agree exactly with your conclusion, it seems so strange I think because she was experiencing a mental health crises than once dehydration and who knows what exposures kick in out there it’s easy to become disoriented.
❤ as always great work! I appreciate your hard work to make these videos and all you do for the trail community.
Doing all that, risking life and limb, for $12K? That doesn't seem very likely.
Well, the conspiracy theory was that she wasn't there in the canyon the whole time. That she may have been gone for a day and come up with the story and hid in her house with collaboration with her daughter and staged the 'discovery' after she returned to the park 2 weeks later. Probably they hoped to make more than 12k, so that really isnt a point. Even if she did camp there with a ton of water for 2 weeks to do a scam, they had no idea it would only be 12k so that is not really a good point, sorry
Right! These days 12 grand might get you a few months of rent and a Big Mac😂
Ppl have risked everything before for less than that don't be a naive fool
@@makeshift_battlefield_musicWell actually it of kind of is a good point. For several reasons but I'll list one. Mainly for the fact that the majority of go fund me campaigns make nothing or very little. The average is $2500...that's an average. This means most people make much less. I just posted a comment on my personal theory. The gist of it is, she panicked/got embarrassed and actively avoided detection..perhaps scavenging water in those 2 weeks. That would explain the weight loss and ability to survive without a clean water source. She may have even been scavenging trash bins in the parking lot at night considering how close she was. Just a theory but I think it's fairly sound with the limited information I have.
She would have had no idea how much would have been raised and could have expected a lot more.
I remember this. Us lodge employees were speculating that she was hiding in Springdale. That’s the town next to Zion. She was hiding in plain sight. Everyone was wearing surgical masks so it was easier to go unnoticed. She was hiding along side the Virgin river.
Geraldine Largay. She was almost 70 when she walked off trail to use the bathroom, became lost and set up camp to wait to be rescued. She was two miles off trail, survived for 26 days, and she wasn't found for two years. Stranger things have happened than this.
But Geraldine died, if that’s the woman on the Appalachian Trail.
Andreas Mihavecz survived locked in a jail cell without food or water for 18 days. The need for water within two to three days is out dated. There are many variables involved.
Very true.
He licked the walls of his cell, if I remember correctly!
Experts recommend that dehydrated people in a desert ought to suck on small rocks in their mouths! I think it helps to produce more saliva!
Thank you and hello from Scotland
Great video! I like how concise and fast paced you are throughout keeping our interest. Excellent inclusion of photos and texts. Strange case. Glad she survived her ordeal
Love your videos and podcasts, Kyle.
thanks for doing the celsius conversion for us!
Sgt Cashin is quite the expert on things he didn't see or do. This is the second case I know of where a woman was found alive and was accused of not being truly in danger, despite serious weight loss and trauma. You make your own decisions.
She got them 'crazy eyes'...god knows what's going on in some people's head!
Her being 800 meters from the parking area as evidence of foul play is also ridiculous. Most people who are lost end up being very close to a trail, road, parking area, etc. Sound does not at all travel far in the forest, and 800 m is almost 1 km, or half a mile. For comparison, Geraldine Largay’s body was also almost exactly 800 m off the Appalachian Trail. She was also literally on the property of a US Navy Survival training facility, and they took part in the extensive search efforts. Half a mile off one of the most popular trails in the world, with a US Navy SERE team searching, and she wasn’t found for over 2 years. She wasn’t incapacitated or injured either; she survived for 26 days and starved to death. The wilderness is massive, and 0.5 miles might as well be 50 if you’re hopelessly lost.
as a mentally ill individual, sometimes i disappear off the face of the earth. it’s not really intentional, i know people will be worried about me, but on the off chance im able to go somewhere i tend to not come back for days at a time. it freaked my loved ones out at first, they reported me as missing the first time, and it resulted in me not coming back for even longer once i realised they were looking for me. i don’t really understand my own emotions a lot of the time, especially when i get like that, but i remember being too scared to go back because it was technically my own fault that i was “missing”. once i did go back i faced hell for what i did. i just needed to get out. staying where i stay with the people i stay with drives me insane. but i cant change that part yet, so i take breaks when i need it.
Your storytelling and editing are sooo good! Thank you for the videos.
Whenever I go downtown, I always notify my loved ones of where I intend to go, how long I'll be gone, the routes I intend to take, stops I intend to make (McDonald's, gas station, etc..) and at what time to start the search and rescue. (and/or recovery efforts)
In this day and age, even that isn’t a stupid plan. People disappear under the most ordinary of circumstances on the daily.
I have a theory that could explain everything: "Atypical Depression (Major Depressive Disorder with Atypical Features)."
She started the hike optimistic and fully intending to be back in time to catch the shuttle back. Did she trip and fall only a few hundred feet in, frustrated and in pain? Once she found herself alone, the hazy fatigue caught up with her very quickly. The weather was crisp and cool, she wouldn't have been sweaty. Setting up her hammock in a lovely, pleasant place, just far enough from the parking lot that she wouldn't be interrupted, she crawled in to rest until the shuttle returned. When she realized that she had missed the shuttle, well, she didn't want to get up yet anyway. She might as well wait until morning to muster the energy to find a different way back. Or maybe afternoon, she might be able to muster the energy by then.
Succumbing to the sleeping/catatonic state characteristic of a depressive episode, her body quickly switched to starvation/radical energy conservation mode and shut down non-vital systems. No hunger, no thirst, no need to go to the bathroom. No more burning calories to move, or think, or care about anything at all. This state can easily last for several days in a row, burning multiple pounds of lean muscle to minimize oxygen consumption and water loss.
Usually, when a person slowly rouses from this state, they're in their own bed. Food and water are within easy reach and energy conservation leaves them with enough stamina to function normally. For this hiker, food and water were so far away that the effort didn't seem worth it, or even possible. Did she trip and fall every time she got up, bumping into every rock and every tree limb before turning around to rest until the pain faded? The best option would be to fade back into a depressive fugue instead of worrying about it.
When rescuers showed up and her family came to bring her back to safety, this jump-started a temporary mood boost and gave her the will to walk with them all the way back to safety. Her mouth was glued shut, saliva production had long since been sacrificed in favor of her heart and lung function.
No, she would not want to talk about her ordeal. Neither would her family. Better for people to believe that she faked getting lost just for the attention. People would be FAR less forgiving if they thought she was merely "sad" and inconvenienced that many people "just for the attention."
Yes, the rescuer was (almost) right. A lost hiker would have died of dehydration long before that. The adrenaline-fueled efforts to ensure survival and try to alert rescuers would burn through all their reserves very quickly.
But a lost person can survive without water much longer than that if trapped in a cave or shipwrecked in the middle of the ocean. If you have nothing better to do than lie still and conserve energy, you can stay alive far longer.
Great analysis.
I didn't know that my depression cope is 'normal'.
Thanks.
You have such a levelheaded way of looking at things, it’s really fascinating how people have nothing better to do then believe the media fueled crap.
This seems so easy to me: If she really was so dehydrated that she couldn't even open her mouth and she had a head injury that meant she was disoriented enough that she couldn't find her way back despite being so close, I don't believe that she was well enough to "get giddy and full of adrenaline" and get up and walk out on her own and go to the hospital with her family. There's no way. Either she was in such a bad condition and was taken by medical personal to the hospital where she would have been for days and there would be records to prove it, or she wasn't that bad. It can't be both.
yeah, adrenaline is physically draining, why would the brain/body even do something as stupid as that if it isn't a life or death situation? so that she walk under her own power and go to the hospital? seriously? that makes no sense. i get being happy, but filled with adrenaline?
All these people saying "she should've been able to do this and do that [fetch water, talk, hear, yell, reason, walk here, walk there, be more dehydrated, be less dehydrated, be dead, be her own compass, have all her wits in full working order, etc etc] is absolutely INSANE to me.
Is everyone forgetting she had head trauma, plus other physical trauma from the dehydration, heat, etc, plus mental trauma from the ordeal, exacerbated by whatever mental challenges were already present.
She wasn't a dancing forest princess in a fairy tale, having cute furry forest friends helping her.
...
I have no real idea what happened. But I'd like to make the point that I've been lost in the woods for a couple hours during an Army training event (I was a new, foolish Soldier) and the sheer amount of embarassment alone made me unable to really think. Thankfully, I learned my lesson and got really good at reading my compass and map eventually.
Besides enjoying the podcast, the background scenery is awesome
My first question is why did she need a shuttle driver to drop her off and pick her up at the same trailhead location. I could see calling a driver to either drop off or pick up if she was going in one direction - to her car or to the shuttle driver. But she had a shuttle pick her up at her car that was at one trailhead, take her to a different trailhead, and ask the driver to pick her up where she was dropped off - an out and back or loop hike. She could've driven her car to that trailhead and completed her out and back without a shuttle driver involved. Did she call the shuttle driver just to have someone notice she was missing?
This is possibly one of the best questions posted regarding this case. The answer would put everything into perspective, I believe. While I definitely do NOT think she did this for $12k, there is always the possibility she and her family may have anticipated a much greater windfall. There was no way of knowing how much money would be raised, so it is absolutely possible this was a scam
That part of Zion is seasonally closed to private cars, so you have to take the shuttle (or hike/bike in).
@@David-ph3ce October seems to be an odd time for the area to be seasonally closed. But I admit I don't know much about the area.
I have been to Zion. There are shuttles everywhere because there are not a lot of parking places. They often don’t let you park by trailheads there, and parts of the park are closed to cars at different times of the year. They are easy to catch and you can plan your trips too, so they know when and we’re you are going (for safety and to make sure you get picked up) the shuttles there are actually pretty efficient and timely. I think every hour if I remember correctly at least for the trailheads we went to in 2011.
The closures are because of high volume of visitors, not weather. October is one of the peak seasons in southern UT. I ran the West Rim Trail at the time she was missing. It ends at the same Grotto parking lot near Angel's Landing, and no other option than to take the shuttle back to the visitor center. It's also important to note that this area is swarmed with people and the road follows the river, so take that for what it's worth. @@Oriole21
Spiritual posession is ascribed to a handful of disappearances. Call it what you will, people are sometimes led into the wilderness. Some are found.
Regardless of what anybody thought, if you have a search it only makes sense to have a medical exam. Her after picture looks pretty shaky. Best wishes.
WOAH- I live in the ADKs and just noticed the 46 banner behind you. That is awesome!!
My family was actually visiting the park while the search was going on and I remember seeing the missing person posters everywhere so I followed this case pretty closely. A couple things to add. There isn’t any cell service in the park. There is a bit at the front visitor center, but once you travel up the canyons, there’s nothing. So having a cell phone with her wouldn’t have done much good.
Second, this park is BUSY! Or it was at that time during 2020 when traveling to national parks was pretty much the only thing to do. I remember walking near the area she was found and it was crowded. It makes sense that no one spotted her sooner. When there’s so many people, you kind of tune them all out and so seeing someone in a hammock wouldn’t be anything special.
There’s still so much that doesn’t make sense about this case and I don’t think the family is doing themselves any favors by not sharing more, particularly about where she found water. But I don’t think this was a setup to rake up a bunch of money off go fund me. $12,000 isn’t that much, considering the search for her cost $60,000. If it was something nefarious, she didn’t do so well.
People keep saying 'why would you fake this for 12k'
Assuming it was a scam, they had no idea what they would make and probably would have expected much more. I don't know or care either way. But the whole thing about how little money they actually made is irrelevant to their alleged motive.
bryan, you are very fair and compassionate to all parties regarding holly’s story. thank you.
Wrong channel LoL
I have spent the night in the Narrows twice hiking from top to bottom. I drank a lot of Virgin River water. There are a lot of cows on the top end and a lot of tourist wading in the water at the bottom. The water is not toxic. One of my pet peeves is authority figures that tell you water is toxic when it may need treatment. If I got thirst enough I would drink Virgin River water.
yeah i came into this knowing this case vaguely as 'that lady who faked her disappearance for money.' can't believe i just believed the words of a cop like that. sorry holly i apologize for that
Well, when you showed the reddit comments, I paused and read several of them. Someone mentioned in them that she had made comments on Facebook a few months prior to her disappearance about getting "lost" in the woods and making it out alive and having a movie made about her. She even made other comments back and forth with her daughter planning such an event. Now, I don't know if that's true, because she supposedly deleted the posts shortly before going missing. But, if she really did make those comments, it's a huge red flag.
It's all a red flag to me
I think that if she got lost and they paid all that money trying to find her, and then she’s got that go fund me then why can’t she give that go fund me to pay for the cost of finding her? What does she need it for it’s just extra money now free money. I would believe she’s not in it for the money if she would actually donate it back to the park.
Totally agree.
She should also have to pay for the search party costs
Forrest people thing?
@@siriusness7505 I just meant to say that the search for her cost $60,000. That’s what she should use that go fund me money for to give back to wherever that original $60,000 came from. Yeah the sleeping pills had just kicked in, and than I get real stupid for a few minutes. Then I put my head down. AND I DON’T SLEEP. No matter how hard I try.
What is a “forest people thing”?
@@siriusness7505. Do you think he means forest ranger? 😂😂
Sheriff right to question, but not publicly
Imagine you really did get lost, finally make your way home, knowing you didnt lose your life, only to have the whole world pissed at you. I don't know how i feel about what happened, but remember... everyone was stuck home, overthinking everything that comes across their feed at that point.
(I don't have an opinion in either direction, i don't have enough information.)