That really made a great majority of the Jiren shit terribly dull to watch. It stops having shock and awe after like, a minute. And this is the case for 99% of the arc.
@@ganoninthepit It's because Toei expected us fans to merely enjoy the ToP's spectacle and nothing more, since arguably the spectacle is the only thing about DragonBall is all we enjoy about the series. Yes, we both know why that's bullcrap, but that was Toei's thinking apparently...
And you want to know something funny and sad? It's truth in television. Look up Pedro Rodrigues Filho- a brutal cartel murderer who killed at LEAST 71 people of all ages, and then he got out of prison and became a popular and successful UA-camr, telling his fans how shitty the murderous criminal lifestyle is from experience. Vegeta's popularity isn't just "Oh it's just a silly escapist anime, real people would never idolize a guy like that"
12:30 It's even worse once you realise this context: Bulma: Hey Namekians that haven't been killed by Vegeta, wanna come live with me? Namekians: Okay Bulma: Hey Vegeta, wanna come live with me together with the Namekians you haven't killed yet? Vegeta: Okay, sounds fun The months after that before the Namekians went to their new planet must have been the most awkward months at Capsule Corp imaginable, not to mention the most terrifying months of the Namekians' entire lives. It wasn't just a couple of minutes until Freeza, Zarbon, or Dodoria killed them. This was for months! For all the grief Bulma gives Goku for being tactless Bulma is even worse. Not only must Vegeta have been a terror in that he could simply kill them all for fun if he felt like it, he would also be a constant reminder of their own kin that he killed on Namek, the same Namekians that were never brought back.
With the way Toriyama wrote it, the Namekians had likely forgiven him right away and lived happily. For Bulma to act this way, she'd have to be just as psychopathic as he was at the time. So really, they were made for one another.
@@spambamkeija634 I'd say it's even simpler. I'm watching through the original Dragonball anime now (I read the manga but it was ages ago, so this could just be filler), and as fun a character as Bulma is, I'd characterize her formula as being "Man looks better/tougher than other man = time for an upgrade".
@@ForwardSynthesis A lot of women are like that realistically speaking, whether it's conscious or subconscious, so I see no problem with it to be quite frank.
Your Vegeta point is awesome and dead on. I've always wondered why he was so welcomed on earth after everything. His job was literally genocide of and enslaving entire planets yet no one cares about it. Vegeta never even faced justice at any point. Krillin vogue's for him, someone who has seen his evil up close. Even in the next arc he slaps away every hand extended to him. Maybe being second fiddle to goku, something that eats him up every second of every day, is the universe punishing him.
Godzilla00X exactly. Another problem is that so much of Vegeta’s development takes place off panel, like the beginning of his relationship with Bulma, them getting married and him settling into the role of family man after the end of cell games. I honestly think that Toriyama only kept Vegeta around after the end of Frieza saga because of how popular he was. Basically, he went from a villain to the anti-Goku. Don’t get me wrong, I like him and Bulma as a couple, and his eventual character growth, but it was definitely rushed and not fleshed out as well as it could have been.
The anime at least made it make sense by putting Vegeta outside out of Earth for almost the entirety of the time skip, where he was searching for Kakarott. He just came back on the same day as Freeza and Gokū did. The only people who ever welcomed him were Bulma and her family.
Jin Jusuke Good point. And I suppose that after he and Bulma had trunks together, the rest of the dragon team were forced to tolerate vegeta due to simple association( I.e. he’s important to Bulma and trunks, so even though the others don’t like him, they don’t do anything about it because they know that they’re “ stuck” with him now)
That brings to mind a major complaint of mine. The fact that the series has so many time skips. Post the conclusion of an arc. So we rarely see character interactions. Not only that they also seem to never vist each other. It is a disappointing lack of friendship. There needed more interactions in times of peace. That largely went away post the 23rd Budokai arc. Which is a shame.
I think the Anime fixed Vegeta's inclusion in the group where he hops into space with a ship Dr. Brief made in a filler story before returning just as Freeza and King Cold are on the way to Earth. He's got nowhere else to go except, well, Earth after failing to find Goku. The story treats his "inclusion" as tenuous and awkward as you'd expect too as he's just now settling in, him balking at the pink shirt above else. Of course, the Freeza Arc's ending was overall benefited by the slower pace of the Anime compared to the Manga which seemed eager to get it over with. One would think Toriyama would prefer more of a breather after a action-packed storyline.
I know many bring up the Anime as a counterpoint but it can't be under-emphasized how it was most of our exposure to Dragon Ball and while a lot of BS the Manga had made it in there, a lot of issues were mitigated in some form or another. I'm sure you'll have a lot to say about "Trunks The Story" in that regard. :P
That is why I always say the Anime is better than the Manga. Sure, there are shitty filler episodes too and some of them are dragged out like the Fake Namek Saga, but we still got gems like the Driver's License Episode and the characters are more active such as Krillin trying to safe people from Cell.
I just realized something putting this rant into perspective: Frieza in the Tournament of Power was a far more competent character than Vegeta was in this arc. Frieza, the _villain_ was a better team player than Vegeta, the _anti-hero_ . Frieza never betrayed anyone. He was earning wins left and right, schemed to get rid of the craftier opponents, ensured that the strongest allies never got kicked out, even if they were his most hated enemy. When someone had a plan, he listened and immediately cooperated and he never actively made the situation worse, well at least not in the manga. I'll let him provoking Toppo into transforming into a God of Destruction slide since neither he or anyone else in Universe 7 knew anything about him, whereas Vegeta clearly knew Cell could transform again and get stronger. And the best part that Frieza was still written consistently, and very well, I might add.
@@ifeanyiozoh3097 Frieza saying he would continue to do evil things is why he's consistent. He was never given an incentive to mend his ways nor did Goku ask him to do so. He's written consistently because he's a devious bastard who kept his own team on the edge of their seats, suspicious he might backstab the team and he certainly did come off that way at times.. He's written better in Super because he's not nearly as arrogant or stupid as he was back then. Here in the Tournament of Power, he is given a third chance to resume his reign and so decides to play it smart and the only way he's going to get back into a position of power is by helping them. He didn't pointlessly backstab anyone or gloat about how he's better than the Saiyans. Instead, he cooperates with and even _supports_ them, making sure they all stay in the ring because he's smart enough to recognize that the obstacles he's facing against will require their help, loathed as he is to help them
vegetas meant to be a villain through and through and only appear until freeza clearly and after that at best a anti hero until kid buu..that's a fact...he was written as a one to 2 arc villain anti hero ally until freeza kills him...then he comes back has no purpose other than to be mad at goku and the villains and needing conflict to solve in his otherwise meaningless life..he values power cause its how he was raised which makes sense but then he abandons this at the end so I don't know who he is...or who hes meant for..hes inconsistent..development is good but this dude has a kid yet wont protect it?..okay...he hates his son that came back to warn him about a future threat..why?...
I'm surprised this isn't brought up, but Toriyama could have given Vegeta a vendetta against 18 for humiliating him earlier, and that's why he was so keen on letting Cell absorb her.
Honestly that would make far more sense than Vegeta uncharacteristically let Cell become perfect for a challenge. The same guy who made tons of underhanded sneak attacks or even killing unconscious people because it was easier in the last arc. Now he actively enables an opponent become stronger by outside means. Not only that but his insanely idiotic allies looks the other way. It's somehow even worse in the next arc and they still forgive him. The more Vegeta behaves like a egotistical jack ass and the more the others continue to look the other way the worse every single character becomes.
@SpartanQ77 I disagree that it was uncharacteristic. This is the same guy who told Frieza to transform and said no to Bulma's idea to find Gero before he could create the Androids, despite hearing that they killed him in the future. This was stupid, but totally in character for him to let Cell get stronger. Just like Goku, he wants to fight strong guys to test his power, especially since he thought he was invincible.
@@jasonone8726Vegeta asking Freeza to transform isnt stupid as MF himself stated that was needed to not make Freeza get back up in a corner and have a trump card it was to the point
@nicholassims9837 It was stupid. This was the start of the running joke in this franchise of letting the antagonists power up instead of taking them down. Vegeta was able to hold back first from Frieza. He probably had a better chance of winning if he didn't allow this.
@@jasonone8726 no it was smart MF stated that if Vegeta hadn't then Freeza after a few hits would have transform on the spot and killed everyone who would now be tired from the first fight. Asking Freeza to transform was a calculating risk but it was a good risk as it met no energy was wasted from a pointless fight . And no Vegeta couldn't beat first form Freeza as he can transform at will so it would be punch punch punch and the second it looks like Freeza is losing he transforms and gets stronger so Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan wasted energy on a fight that was meaningless.
I think his work ethic resonates with people. Enjoying a character doesnt meam agreeing with his actions. And people dont like to see a character get shafted in favor of another just because. Until super, they seem to go out of their way to make sure goku always has the advantage over vegeta. Super at least treats them as equals and if vegeta falls behind hes able to close the gap.
Dragon Ball Super was the first time I ever even remotely sympathized with Vegeta. I've never liked him, but I found him somewhat entertaining until the end of the Buu saga. By that point I just wanted him to go away. It wasn't until the Tournament Of Power, when he was actually fighting for good cause, that I almost felt bad when Jiren merciless beat his ass and tortured him. And even then, I at no point forgot Vegeta was exponentially worse than Jiren could ever hope to be, I just couldn't help but sympathize with the fact Vegeta was suffering for a motivation than was in no way selfish.
Yeah but I strangely like Buu because he really is over the top with the powers and transformations, even his personality changes once he absorbs people. I mean he turns enemies into candy and eats them! Plus y'know his flesh sinks in then pops back out when you punch him so not really a brick wall. I like the Buu saga since power levels were getting ridiculous but finally they start playing it a little more humorously.
@@Irrelevant402 It's a fun story... In the anime, where it's fleshed out slightly more, and a lot of the humour is done really well. There's not exactly a lot of dramatic tension in Buu as a threat, however. The Dragon Balls never stop existing, so the heroes themselves aren't bothered by any deaths. A good portion of the human population is destroyed but it's still seen as a game to most of them. I'm looking forward to its analysis.
This entire arc for the most part have bern negative. They mount up. To say one negative about the Boo arc alone is worse is baffling. I'm not going to beat around the bush I have a lot of problems with both arcs and the Piccolo arc. He does too it's why they all have the bottom three ranks. The only reason the Freeza arc isn't lower is the former half. The latter half is about as frustrating to me. Yet Toriyama kept making the same mistakes. Somehow despite this they're the most popular arcs. Proving again popularity and quality are not interchangeable.
@@spartanq7781 Well the popularity varies by region. I think Japan liked Buu and the Majin arc more and were a little colder towards Cell as an arc and villain. While Cell is really popular in the U.S. and Buu wasn't. So I was like 'hey I'm the one American that likes Majin Buu and that arc!'
@@Irrelevant402 Majin Boo is the better villain and arc. The arc has character growth and real tension. Except for the evil Boo section. There is also no time travel that is good enough on it's own. Boo isn't a horror esque villain whom ruins it. The arc pits him as unstoppable from the start. It isn't everyone screwing up and making things worse. Again except the evil Boo section. However his regeneration is far worse than even Cell. I didn't think it was possible. At least he doesn't ever magically get stronger when he does. A good villain does not need such absurd advantages. The villains before them were just unstoppable. Freeza came close to crossing that line. He had far too many transformations at will. Then he survived getting cut in pieces. Which pissed me off so much. Cell and Boo crossed that line by a long shot. At least GT and Super didn't give that absurd advantage to most enemies.
I am definitely torn on the Vegeta stuff. On one hand, Vegeta is probably the most consistently written and overall has the best written character arc in the series... But on the other hand none of the other characters should have put up with him long enough to have that character arc, as you pointed out.
Toriyama kept Vegeta around and knew how to utilize him. However he doesn't give the other characters a realistic reaction to his selfish and dangerous actions.
The thing about Vegeta is, he lived his entire life as a slave. The job he was coerced/forced to do was kill and enslave others. He made it his life's mission to survive and one day stand over his torturer by any means necessary. Cruel actions became par for the course, and that shaped his personality. He was always looking for a way out and not letting anything get in his way, including his first mission on Earth. After Freeza's death it's the first time in his life he is "free", conquering Earth gains him nothing(if he even is capable as a non SSJ vs the team up of Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn and Tien, certainly not capable of holding that position when Goku arrives), but the planet and it's inhabitants also mean nothing to him. He's new life is centered on "being the strongest", unlike Goku who just enjoys fighting, Vegeta fights to display his superiority and satisfy his ego(often focussed around Goku but applies to everyone else), and you can't be "superior" by simply efficiently dispatching enemies while they are at their weakest, that's what Freeza or King Piccolo would do, not the proud Vegeta.
Except Trunks obviously. But yeah, this issue is more with the rest of the cast. Vegeta's reformation makes no sense, but that's because everybody just accepts him before he does anything good, show any remorse, and while he enables the villains to do horrible things.
@@DJmouchi777 To be fair, I can understand why Vegeta would be having a mid-life crisis. The guy was previously a mass murdering psychopath who seemed fairly okay with the idea of killing billions of people by blowing up the Earth when he was fighting Goku. During the lead-in to the Buu Arc, he hadn't killed one person in seven years.
Your Mom i think many of those people admire more aspects like his tough attitude and stuff like that and not the murderous aspects and similar stuff and the fact that hes a fictional character means that quite a few people are willing to overlook the horrible stuff vegeta does in contrast to if he lived in real life
Thank you! People forget about that Namekian village that Vegeta wiped out. Those Namekians werent even wished back. That was my impetus for not liking Vegeta for a loooooooong time after. And yet this character was rewarded time and time again. #justicefornamekians Those train track illustrations are hilariously accurate btw.
14:37 Much as I love that idea and its phrasing, it's not an option at the moment due to Goku and Gohan... so what Kuririn should really do is fly over that ocean right behind him and drop the bastard right in. Whoops! After all, Vegeta got a stay of execution at his hands, and Goku's totally not lived up to his promise to kick Vegeta's ass the next time he saw him, so once again, our heroic monk must pick up the slack.
The problem on Goku us Toriyama just refused to develop him. Goku is absent for far too long. His and Vegeta's rivalry had no way of growing or sequestering. That is one of my biggest problems. If not the biggest problem I have with Vegeta being around instead of Goku.
I love Vegeta, but I completely agree with everything you said. I'm sort of glad he continued to be in the series, but really it doesn't make much sense at all that any of the good guys would accept him, and this is a factor that makes the arcs after the Frieza saga kind of lesser in quality for me than the previous ones, cuz it felt like Toriyama just kind of stopped caring a bit and didn't think too hard about things like this. Honestly I feel it would've been better if Vegeta just stayed dead after the Frieza saga, as I felt that was a satisfying ending to his character. And it seems stuff like this is maybe happening with Frieza now, which I absolutely hate. It was hard to imagine Vegeta ever redeeming himself, but Frieza? Fuck off with that business. Why can't good villains just stay dead?
"Why can't good villains stay dead?" Simple; it's all about that sweet sweet cash lmao. Long story short, it's been argued many times by many fans that Perfect Cell would've been better fit for the Universe 7 team than Freeza inthe TOP arc but was canned as the animators didn't want to deals with his spots and the simple fact that Freeza is far more marketable than (arguably) any villain DB villain.
Makes sense, though honestly I would just like it if both never came back. I love them but they had their moments to shine. But I can't stop em, only thing I can do is just pretend Super is about as canon as GT is now.
For whatever reason, I always found everyone accepting Vegeta kinda funny, like they could FEEL the author’s intent and just felt compelled to. Even if most of them seem to have forgotten what he did, at least Toriyama doesn’t. Every time someone whines abt why Toriyama hates Vegeta so much or why he always has him lose/job, I just remind them of all the evil shit he did lol The good guys must’ve seen his redemption coming, or were too scared to confront him or something. *shrug* I always saw Vegeta letting Cell become perfect as a combination of ego and wanting to watch 18 S U F F E R. If anything is consistent abt Vegeta, it’s that he LOVES watching ppl get what he feels they deserve The only real reason I prefer Namek Arc Vegeta is that he was less stressful to watch, but I still rly like him...for now. Oh and this isn’t specifically relevant to this vid, but I hate how bc Vegeta was redeemed, ppl believe every villain who was less evil than Vegeta also should’ve been redeemed. As if Toriyama hadn’t done enough reformations. And even under these special circumstances, Vegeta took forever to truly become good “Hey Vegeta, we’re friends now, right?” “F*ck off” “The best.”
Tia Blue I agree I feel like the anime handled this better whenever vegeta was around the other warriors post freeza arc him stealing a capsule ship while everyone is using the dragon balls and coming back to earth yamcha and the other ask why he’s on earth posing as if they were about to fight until bulma intefers somewhat flirting with him having trouble adjusting to earth since toriyama can’t write romance him and bulma formed some sexual relationship that only went as far as one night of passion. However he pretty much was labeled the friend nobody likes in the androids and cell arc krillin hesitates whether or not he should give him a senzu twice one after killing #19 the other after the fight with 17 and 18 tien holds a grudge on him and questions how yamcha can Stand being around him when vegeta is unconscious after his beating from cell krillin scolds him for his stupid actions and his selfishness going as far as to call his pride stupid and say if it were up to him he leave him to die so there’s still a little tension .. there were other scenes he mocks piccolo when he comes out the chamber however piccolo doesn’t entertain him he stands alone while watching the cell games isolated standing away from the other hero’s goku breaks up a verbal argument a second away from leading to a fight between piccolo and vegeta while the group was discussing the training in preparation for the upcoming threat in 3 years
At this point after Cell is defeated deal with Vegeta. It's insane how they forgive him so quickly again. It's even more insane he does it again but worse in the next arc. Especially since the reason was even pettier and after he's supposedly been domesticated. At that point Goku should kill him. It would be dark since he's a husband and father at that point. Enough is enough by that point. Toriyama failed at redeeming Vegeta at a believable level. I just don't get why they tolerate Vegeta. Or Majin Boo for that matter. Toriyama crammed Vegeta's redemption late in the Boo arc. Despite him going to hell earier. It feels like post Freeza arc Vegeta he honestly has no place in the series. It feels like Toriyama subconsciously felt this way himself. As he wanted Vegeta to be a anti villan. The problem is the line has been crossed too many times. It was why I said before Tenshinhan's rebuttal and questioning Yamcha feels wasted. They never get up in Vegeta's face again. I can see if Vegeta apologized and tried to correct his mistake. Hell he apologizes to Gohan but not to Trunks. You know his son who at that point was killed because of his recklessness.
Spartan Q77 Goku had no opportunity to try and kill Vegeta in the Boo saga, during their fight he couldn’t risk giving Boo *more* energy by going SSJ3, and by the time Goku came to Vegeta was already dead and gone. Then when he was brought back he was needed more than ever for the plot/ fusion, so there was no reason to hold a grudge in that moment when everything was on the line. Then by the end of the saga Vegeta was “one of the good guys” as determined by the wish granting dragon so i guess *it all worked out in the end...*(slight anger)
@@Zaylovesu2 I say this so many times but the story could have easily been written that way. Trying to use in universe excuses are baseless. Since this is fiction it can be whatever the writter wants i.e. Toriyama. It doesn't happen simply because he didn't write it that way. That is what I'm complaining about.
Spartan Q77 so your complaint is that the story didn’t progress in a way that you liked? which would be a *historian fallacy*, however using in-universe lore to explain why things happen as they do is baseless, as opposed to just saying the story shouldn’t have been written that way or written differently. also it may be fiction and primarily up to the writers desire, but Toriyama has editors that either suggest he makes a change or just straight up tells him. as we have already seen *twice* in this arc alone.
@@Zaylovesu2 Well yes it is my opinion. If I find a problem with something I have free reign to complain. It bothers me how it is brushed aside so quickly. That is the main problem. Let's not beat around the bush the latter half of the series is poorly written most of the time. The other things I mentioned in my initial comment are my real complaints.
It was because of Toriyama's editor that Vegeta became a villain again but they dropped the ball with it. The fight lasted only for a chapter and it was pretty much a waste of time. People say apparently Piccolo suppose to be evil, but I mean what's the point. It was way to inorganic so Vegeta needed to have a stupid reason so Babidi didn't take control of somebody angry again. Other than that, I think Vegeta's and Fat Majin Buu's arc were handled pretty well as well as Mr Satan.
What a take, in here I am believing Vegeta's crime was just swept under the rug by the fandom, like " this is dragon ball hence this is fine " kinda thing It feels kinda refreshing
Wow, I’m honestly really surprised that most Vegeta fans I’m seeing on here aren’t pissed off, that honesty makes me so happy. Great video, easily the best Christmas gift, and I loved @sometimeshector’s art. It’s always nice to see artwork or comments from fans of DBD.
This channel is filled with not blind but people and the best parts in the community Its not that much of a surprise they could actually swallow this hard pill
Majin Silver Oh I know, and I definitely agree. I’ve been following MistareFusion for almost two years now, but he still gets some hate from the other parts of the fandom. Just like he did in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai anime video. That’s why I’m pretty shocked there isn’t too many Vegeta fans upset. He even admitted on Twitter he was scared about his wording in this video (I think he did an excellent job) but yeah even with some hate, his comment section is usually filled with actual discussion instead of “You said something bad about the thing I like, I hate you!!”
@@christiansmusz4895 he did well on uploading this This is the reason i cant say i love vegeta i just like him People who admire him need to know that the mass genocide he caused since he was a little boy still lives till this day and no one had been rezsurected...i dont even know how could someone like him before the buu saga Those parts of the fandom aint open minded and prefer to forget the past instead of handling their issues like real people and tbh can go fuck themselvs
- woofer - Because fans of vegeta accept his flaws and discuss how he could be better where as fanboys will ignore all tht shit and be in denial and get triggered for stating an opinion and curse you out if you don’t agree with them
oh man i CANT WAIT for Mistare to absolutely rip Vegeta apart in the Buu arc. Im interested to hear what he’ll say about Vegeta’s suicide attack. Most people herald that as Vegetas redemption and the pinnacle of his character arc. in reality its just him failing to fix his own catastrophic petty mistakes
@@spartanq7781 While I do like the final attack, the second half of that arc is just "here is the ultimate power - Vegeta Final Explosion/SSJ3/Ultimate Gohan/Gotenks/Vegito" and then all those things failing dramatically.
@@sigilbreaker2628 That is what I was sarcastically complaining about. Those are the fake outs I was referring to. I do like moments in between them and the final battle though.
He doesn't even see them as mistakes though thats the issue with his alleged progress, it's needlessly forced. He did psycho shit again, didn't regret ANY OF IT...AGAIN then realizes he loves his family so he's gonna die for them...if one is even alive after his stadium attack. If he had fought against being Majin then this would've been fine but as is? HA!
Trunks could still exists without Vegeta. He's basically a warning from the future, so it doesn't have to be "Vegeta's son". Toriyama wanted someone else to turn Super Saiyajin for shock value, and once again...it didn't have to be Vegeta's son. It could have been Goten or even Gohan's son. Vegeta stuck around because he's cool and readers liked him. Plain and simple.
Honestly, Gohan himself could've come back from the future, and the same effect would've been achieved. He was only pushing 30 or in his early 30s in that timeline. All that would have changed would've been instead of there being a Trunks, Gohan would be the only survivor of the Z fighters. Would've made Gohan apparently being the "hero" of the arc (despite barely being in it at all) have more catharsis, too. It would have begun with him, a failed version of himself from the future, and ended with him in the present succeeding and correcting the timeline
Waking up to uploads from both MistareFusion and TeamFourStar brought me back to being a child and having a naive sense of wonder and hope, as opposed to being a boring old adult with a foreboding sense of melancholy and despair. Thanks guys!
This entire sequence of Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb 18 is Toriyama bending the characters to make the plot move along. First is Vegeta. Why does he let Cell absorb 18? For the challenge? Why? Vegeta has not been shown to allow his opponents any quarter. He is ruthless in combat, killing or taking advantage of his opponents any way he can to win. We saw this in how he slices Gohan's tail off instead of fighting the Great Ape form, decapitating Guldo while the alien is distracted, killing Recoome and Burter while they are incapacitated - he does whatever he has to do to win, and is ruthless. For him to suddenly heel turn and let an opponent he has on the ropes get a power-up is so brazenly out of character for Vegeta, and the Toriyama tells us that this is arrogance is a Saiyan trait as a retcon. That's almost insulting to us readers/viewers. Next, Trunks. Why doesn't he just kill 18 when he approaches her? He's not Krillin, he doesn't have a crush on her. In fact, his view of 18 is that she's a horrible monster. So, he should have no qualms about just killing her. And nothing is stopping him either since by this point he's much stronger than her. We see him waste no time in destroying the 18 from his timeline, so why doesn't he just kill her here? Lastly, is 18 herself. Why is she just standing there? Because she doesn't want to leave 16 there? Why? Cell has no interest in 16, and 16 is no longer a threat to Cell. Does she feel like she can't run? That doesn't make sense. 18 has no ki! Cell cannot sense her - he only found 17 because 17 was fighting Piccolo and he followed Piccolo's ki signature. If 18 would have run off and just laid low, Cell would never have found her. Never mind that he'd be killed by Trunks, Goku or Gohan during his futile search. Toriyama just demanded we just accept this much stupidity in a handful of chapters and just take it. This arc was really the beginning of the steep decline of the quality of writing in the series - Buu just emphasized it.
@@gespenst1329 Off the top of my head, I'd say you're absolutely correct. Up to this point, THIS was the sloppiest writing Toriyama exhibited with Dragon Ball.
The more I listen to this part of the series, the more I want to read a fanfic where someone tries to rewrite the Cell Saga to make everything make more sense. From the Dragon Team being more proactive about Trunks's warning, to it backfiring when the maintime Androids prove more powerful than those from the bad future, to the human cast actually being useful, to Cell not info dumping his life story, to everyone actually being uncomfortable around Vegeta, to Krillin actually debating compassion versus pragmatism instead of just listening to his dick, to whatever criticisms come up during the Cell Games Act of the Saga. There's just so much about this Saga that illustrates how Toriyama's writing didn't benefit from experience. I do like Vegeta, but I do have to agree Toriyama handled him very poorly after the hunt for the Namekian Dragonballs, but that can probably be said of most characters after their intro arc or their first arc after their face-heel turn. I never got around to reading the manga all the way through, but I preferred what was adapted into Dragonball over what became DBZ greatly, and what I've read of Dr. slump is my favorite of Toriyama's work. The man was much better at comedy than action, and Dragonball lost much of its charm as the tone shifted towards a half-baked attempt at the dramatic. I still enjoyed Z(hell, I even like some of GT), but the series did seem to trade humor and crazy fantasy martial rts for generic pyrotechnics and samey fights between beings who single handedly present biosphere eradication threats.
@@spartanq7781 super true. It could be more accurate if he did have another track he could turn to with no one tied to the rails or cliff to represent the option of him not letting cell become perfect though
As a Vegeta fangirl I'm still here as you said nothing I don't accept because this normalization of a dumb psycho hurts him too. Since no one can criticize Vegeta he never has to confront his past, self reflect or do anything his growth is hamfisted as its sudden BECAUSE THERE IS BARELY ANYTHING TO LOGICALLY BUILD IT OFF OF! Its so needless and stupid and I love him and Happy Holidays!
When the Abridged series made more sense. Today TeamFourStar released the made episode in which Future Bulma said she never loved Vegeta and there was just some sexual tension. Better than any romance Toriyama has written. Even Trunks' thoughts about his father make no sense. In the Cell arc, Vegeta keeps punching his son a lot. To make it worse, Vegeta never grows up in the manga. The Buu arc just makes him even worse when he kills hundreds of people just to provoke Goku, ultimately resulting in Buu's resurrection. What a badass..... Toei actually tried reforming him in GT and some movies and especially Super but Vegeta never admits his mistakes or anything. It's like the opposite of what Kishimoto did to Sasuke. Sasuke started as a cold kid who started befriendeding his teammates until he became corrupted due to Orochimaru. However, Sasuke never sees murder as an must to do action, to the point he keeps sparing enemies when he is a teenager. When Sasuke becomes corrupted, he actually tells Naruto to kill him because he has taken the wrong path. What happens to him next, Sasuke decides that his entire actions are wrong as he believes his hometow is more important than any of his personal feelings. Although he still needs to see his death as the most important thing, he eventually decides the only way of paying for sins is helping others rather than dying. And what does he do? He starts helping Naruto in the shadows and even trains his son so that in the future Boruto will protect the village.
My take on Picollo vs King Picollo: He's a re-incarnation of sorts, but he just had programming that consisted of what King Picollo told him. He accepted these instructions because he was young and had no time to mature. However, as he grew older, he had a whole slew of experiences and he finally started to make his own decisions. This results in him rejecting the path of King Picollo. So I see it as more of a father-son relationshp than the same person.
You know, I think more than anything else this shows that Dragon Ball is a product of its time. Nowadays we’re all about holding characters-even villains-accountable for their actions, and meticulously crafting their redemption arcs. So if Dragon Ball had come out later, there’s no way in hell people would’ve let Vegeta’s slapdash integration into the Dragon Team slide. People all over the internet would be lambasting this choice bringing up all the horrible things Vegeta’s done and how the manga refuses to address them, much like you did in this video. But this doesn’t happen because 1) People are more familiar with the anime where Vegeta’s redemption is slightly better handled, 2) a lot of people tend to just go with some of Dragon Ball’s more questionable writing decisions-whether that’s due to nostalgia or its status as a “classic” is up to you-and 3) Vegeta is a character from the 90s, where being cool-looking and badass where the top priority to fans.
To be fair, Defeat Means Friendship and Villain turned Friend is a prevalent trope in shonen, even if the villain has committed heinous crimes. Hell, look at Hachi. He was responsible (though Arlong was the ringleader) for enslaving Nami's village and keeping her under servitude for 8 years in their pirate crew. It was hell. The money she slaved to buy her village back had her own blood on it and so did the pen she drew maps with in her room. But he is forgiven. The difference is, he does feel remorse but still. Same thing with Franky. He and his crew basically TORTURED Usopp along with stealing the money but again, they let bygones be bygones on that. The one notable time Zoro stepped in and refused to just let things slide is when Usopp wanted to return after his betrayal. He said that wasn't happening unless the first words out of his mouth were an apology.
Dude, you should try to watch a series called Naruto where the main character literally calls the murderer of his parents and a civilization "the coolest guy ever" and forgives mass murderer because he thinks they don't have bad intentions and after the war they don't mind letting the mass murderer roam free. Mass murderer Itachi is a hero. Its not like earthlings had any other choice like vegeta was the strongest after they return from namek. Refusing to let him stay or resisting could have got them killed besides he actually helped them to defeat a common enemy in last fight and saved Gohan's life. I don't know why should they not be relaxed.
Like what happened with the My Hero Academia community with the mangas prior arc. The jerkass hero Endeavour was given a redemption arc, but their was outrage from that arc with people saying that the redemption was being taken to far. And mind you his job is being a superhero and beating up bad guys, with his worst crimes happening at home by being a abusive and neglectful husband and father to his wife and kids. Yet apparently not many people in the dragon ball community 20 years ago didn’t mind a evil mass murder hanging out with the good guys.
Well to be fair with Naruto we are talking about a entire village of hirable assassins so their moral’s aren’t exactly going to match up to other people’s standards.
@@brandonlyon730 I can explain why there was outrage with Endeavour. Domestic violence and child abuse hits far closer to home with some people than your cool-looking space nazi. It's hard to relate to someone blowing up planets as that's so outside the scope of reality, but beating your kid and wife... ehh, now we're creeping into Uncomfortable Implications territory.
Oh I have NEVER understood why Vegeta stayed around. Leaving aside the fact that he becomes boring as fuck after Namek just devolving into "Grr, Kakarot" made into a person, it makes no damn sense, like you said, why anyone would tolerate him being there. And it's NEVER made sense to me why Bulma, of all people, would be so welcoming towards the guy that was responsible for the death of her boyfriend, one of the main reasons she went to Namek to begin with. Honestly Vegeta should have just stayed flat-out dead on Namek. It was a fine conclusion to his story and anything afterwards just deteriorated him more and more as it went on.
You handled the Vegeta thing perfectly, I've seen saying similar things about him for years but people call me a hater because of how cool he is LOL. But it's true, he never got a real redemption like piccolo did, Vegeta just went from a universal terrorist to a stay at home Dad in two Saga for no good reason.
As a Vegeta fan, I absolutely HATED him in this arc. Cool moments for sure. Character development, yes! But overall...he was SUPREMELY irky in the Cell Saga.
Vegeta does get his comeuppance for his past actions in the Buu arc though; Piccolo tells him that because he's caused so much suffering, he won't be able to keep his body in the afterlife. He's going to hell. The fact that he goes through with his sacrifice _anyway_ is a genuinely good character moment for me and why it's well-remembered. But yeah, if it weren't for the Dragon Balls, Vegeta would've received public execution a thousand times over. But even the Dragon Balls can't bring back the inhabitants of countless other planets he genocided and pirated.
It would have been beautiful if Majin Boo didn't have an even worse case of regeneration. Cell's regeneration doesn't come close to comparing to Boo's.
Merry Christmas MF! And thank you very much for the gift! EDIT: I've always felt the reaction that didn't make sense to Vegeta swapping sides was Bulma. None of the characters other than Goku can even scratch him at the end of the Freeza saga, so Vegeta just hanging around on Earth waiting for Goku made sense (and none of them are particularly friendly). Bulma though... guess it depends whether you think using an evil alien space pirate for sex until your best bud kills him for you is moral or not. Vegeta's sort of like that one edgy guy in your DnD party who plays Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil and you have to think why your characters would bother to tote around a dangerous, stupid psychopath. And on Cell's regeneration: this should have been better explained, but I believe the reason he can regenerate from such terrible injuries is because he has Saiyan + Namek + Freezian cells. That means he can survive with terrible damage (Freeza) and regenerate from it with Namekian cells, with the power boost from Saiyan Zenkai offsetting the ki difficulty. This is all rather screwy, and should have been explained though (especially since we haven't seen an explicit Zenkai this entire arc and won't until it's necessary to raise the stakes in the *biggest asspull of all time* .)
Tbh, even Bulma's reaction isn't THAT out of character. She constantly tries to jump the bones of her friend's opponents, whether it be Oolong (before she knew he was just a piglet); the bandit Yamcha who beat the shit out of Goku; or Jackie Chun solely based on his NAME.
@@imarealone_0076 Well, it's not just sex in the anime (and I am not sure anymore if this is how it happened in the Manga). She sees his vulnerable side and nurses him back to health with he almost kills himself training at her place, when he blows up the ship training. Maybe not love yet, but it's definitely her having feelings for him, and him softening a bit (a very tiny bit, but it's the start of things to come).
I forget if this is still cannon or if it's legends but Darth Vader force ghost does show him self to Leia asking for forgiveness to which her reaction was go fuck yourself you were never my father and you will always be a monster which I think was a very fair reaction but apparently she eventually forgives him some time after this.
That works though since its Vader dealing with his actions. Vegeta never has that moment. If after he went majin or did this he was outcasted from the group or even flat out told to leave Earth by goku and the rest it would be better than them just going "oh well that's our Vegeta"
Probably would of made more sense to have Vegeta die on Namek for the end of his "arc" but he was a popular character so guess he had to come back, I still like Vegeta btw im just saying it was rather odd people just accepted him instantly as well.
What really bugs me about all this is the predictability of it. Once Cell deposited his goal we all knew it would happen. Vegeta suggesting Cell become complete and him reaching beyond Super Sayain tells you he will. He and Trunks are the first in the room and spirt of time. When they leave Vegeta does exactly was expected of him. How did the others not see this coming? Vegeta flat out tells Goku that when this is done he will come after him again. That should have sentvoff the warning bells. That Goku should have left Vegeta in the dark. Trunks would have did the right thing. There is also the fact that he in this very arc declares himself as pure evil. They know his genocidal history. He was tangentially responsible for most of the dragon teams death. Tenshinhan being the only one to get in his face about it is so stupid. Everyone should he has not proven himself any better. Than from when they first meet him. Blooma sleeping with him after that and after he threatened her life twice is stupid. Vegeta's inclusion post the Freeza arc and his relationship with Blooma is stupid. It is honestly one of the worse writting I have ever seen. This moment here should have been expected. It also makes his beefed up Super Sayian form end up another tenis bout. The fact that anyone should even care if he dies is also illogical to me. You can't declare someone as being redeemed when they continue to do stupid selfish evil actions. At this point anyway.
I heard that Vegeta was originally suppose to die in the Saiyan arc and Goku would become the last true pure blood Saiyan. But I guess Vegeta was really popular among the community by the end of the arc despite him being a one dimensional villain at the time, and with that popularity he was allowed to live and later become a main character. It would explain his forced inclusion after the action or why Goku and Krillins willingness to allow him to live seem really stupid.
Man, I've thought about how Dragon Ball characters are mostly redeemed villains for the longest time, so that part of the video was really interesting for me to watch. A trend I've noticed is how Toriyama tends to make the next character redemption take longer than the last. Starting with the first arc which had a few villains become good, to the 22nd Budokai which was mostly dedicated to only Tein's turnabout, to Piccolo's story which doesn't get resolved at the end of the arc he's introduced, but is carried over into the Sayain arc (you could argue how good of an idea it was to just let him go at the end of the 23rd Budokai, but at least he's never PROVEN to kill anyone, only threaten), to finally Vegeta, who takes his sweet ass time becoming good. He takes so long even, that he even broke the trend of villains taking longer to redeem than the last, so while the Androids and Buu become good guys, they become that way all within their own arc (and even then they're more pacified rather than redeemed). Although, with all this talk, I'm surprised you didn't mention the most unbelievable heel-turn: the Ox-King, who HAS canonically killed people and only gets a slap on the wrist by Master Roshi. Next time you him all dressed up as a jolly old grandpa, just remember: that man's killed people.
I loved your comparison to Darth Vader! Thinking about it from this standpoint, I think Vegeta's story would have ended much better in the Frieza arc as he was redeemed through his death at the hands of Frieza, his terrorizer. It made for such a beautifully tragic moment for Vegeta in that we (and Goku too) could finally accept him through his death, but only in his DEATH! Bringing him back to life for this just ruins all of that.
Another Vegeta fan and, yeah, you're right. Vegeta's character, in terms of writing, after Freeza feels *lazy* even in the Buu arc. And it's all due to lack of exploration of the what ifs his type of character brings. Things just happen to or with Vegeta because the writer needs x and x and Vegeta is the newbie. The worst part about it all is that he doesn't feel OOC so it's easy to glance over it (at least until Super took pleasure in highlighting it) as by this time Bulma-tachi are truly 100% side characters. Out of frame, out of mind. So, while he'll get cool moments it tends feels undercut by the dumbest of writing that weakens them once you actually think on them. Not to mention, his cunning and tactics are simply never used again. He becomes the dude that put all his points into ki and strength, and uncreatively too. He's effectively becomes the tenderizer for the villains for Goku/Gohan to then finish off. Really a shame as his character could have been the type that is redeemable, but not in the goody-two shoes way like everyone else. It could have been a good way to contrast humans to saiyans.
That's one of the most hilarious titles I've seen in a while. Vegeta is a complete moron in this part and the story makes everything to prove to us that he made a terrible mistake and the title just illustrate this perfectly with the right amount of sarcasm and irony.
And even after watching the entire episode of DBD I still stand to my point. While I agree it's mostly consistent and fairly in character it doesn't make it any less idiotic. The story also doesn't help since it *also* paints him as a character that is *resourceful* and *intelligent enough when it comes to combat* . To me he should *at least* try to blast Cell while he is trying to transform and it would be a lot more like him.
[Vitz!] Vegeta wouldn't blast Cell since that would mean he's afraid to fight him when he's not. He was afraid of Frieza and the Frieza Force since he was weaker than them his whole life. Now that he's a Super Saiyan Grade 2 he feels at top of the world and doesn't feel like anything could challenge him.
You're destroying my childhood by making me critically think about why this saga is actually bad... You're not wrong about anything though. Amazing analysis as always. When talking about Yu Yu Hakusho, Super Eyepatch Wold said it was impossible to really throw away his nostalgia bias. Its he same for me with DBZ. But it seems like you have that ability.
1:05 I realized something was off about the Dragon Ball Christmas picture but it took me a second to figure it out … Toriyama included everyone from the older arcs of the manga, even Oolong and Puar … but he completely forgot to include Chaotzu. Maybe you were right when you said Toriyama just hates the little guy.
Also I love how the second drawing has a cliff because of course that stupid sexy prince would drive right into it laughing maniacally all the way down.
I didn't get the sasusaku fans but vegiblu shippers must be even worse if that series started today...it makes even less sense since we don't get a few dramatic thank you for everything or head poke scenes from them together ...we get one smile..thats it...I just laugh at certain ships...renji and rukia...nami and eventually sanji I feel is funny since hes always looking at robin that way too...and of course keiko and yusuke....smdh..
About your whole case about Vegeta...well, you are right, he never showed any remorse for all the genocides he commited, and Piccolo was very clear when he told him "you are a monster, you are going straight to hell"...however, the Dragon Balls dont consider him "evil" by the end of the Boo arc, so...he's ok? The most logical comparision is with Piccolo, and I think there are two major differences; Piccolo never did anything even close as evil as the shit Vegeta pulls off even on the Boo arc, and there's is the biggest one, we never see him become "good"...we see Piccolo developing a bond with Gohan, a bond that then extends to Goku, then to the rest of the Dragon Team, and by that time he is 100% good, to the point that is the reason why Kami accepts to become one with him again, with him literally stating "you've changed, there is no evil in you anymore". However, we never see Vegeta going through that, it is heavily suggested he developed a bond with Trunks in the year they spent together in the Time Chamber, but we never see that. It is implied he developed an even closer bond with "his" Trunks and Bulma in the seven years after the Cell arc, but again, we never see that. For all we know, Vegeta never changed, we have to accept he is "good" because the Dragon Balls said so, which is pretty lazy.
I feel Snape is the same way as Vegeta and Darth Vader. While not a mass murderer, for 6 novels all he did was torture Harry and his friends because of a school boy grudge he wouldn't let go. But in book seven we're just supposed to forgive all that because he had a hard on for Harry's mom. Yeah fuck that.
That's not the same at all. As you said, Snape didn't kill anyone. He was just being a jerk. He wasn't quickly accepted and forgiven for murdering people.
Wooh, really tore into Vegeta this time around. Not that he doesn't totally deserve it. I'll admit, Vegeta integrating into the group did kinda pass me by somewhat until now, but having considered it, he really *didn't* have any reason to continue acting communal with these people after Frieza was defeated. His team-up with Gohan and Kuririn was purely necessity, so it does strike me as odd that he'd just stick around to get his Badman shirt long enough for Mecha Frieza to pop in with Cold and get Trunks'd.
What makes this even stupider is Vegeta helps everyone. Come up with a plan to bring Goku back to life. At the end of the Freeza arc. When they thought he was dead. It took several months before they learned he was alive. So what the hell was he doing? He could have just killed them all. Or subjugate them. He also knows about the dragon balls. From then on out he suddenly doesn't care about having immortality anymore. It would have made far more sense if Vegeta became the biggest threat at that point. Then Goku keeps his word to stop him if he attacks them again. Toriyama wanted to keep Vegeta around despite it not making any sense. It makes even less sense in Trunk's timeline. In that timeline they aren't warned about the artificial humans. So he has no reason to side with them again. He had three years to become Super Sayian and challenge Goku. He instead doesn't as an excuse for well Trunks to exist. The artificial humans really shoukd have happened after all of this. That way Dr. Gero would damn well know about Super Sayian. Which would better explain why they're so strong. This arc could have happened without forcing time travel. The story as is barley even mentions it. This arc makes no damn sense.
what are the z-fighters gonna do? "Hey screw you Vegeta, you killed our friends, we dont want you here!" Vegeta: Well what are you gonna do about it? Z-Fighters: Um well
Cell's regeneration is overpowered, and something like Father from Fullmetal Alchemist shows how it could have been done better, but it really could have worked as a one-off. The issue is that between Frieza shrugging off every attack, the way the Ginuu Squad all got hit out in one go for the most part, and Buu, it is just a major example of a bad trend. Merry Christmas all! :)
Is there anyone in the entire DB franchise who ever owned up to making mistakes that had grave consequences and tried to be better for it? Vejita doesn't seem to care much about the genocide he pulled in the past and Goku never seemed to see his fighting obsession as a problem. I would consider Gohan to be one of the few. He felt responsible for Piccolo's death and went to Namek for it. RoF showed him the consequences of forsaking training and so he resumed it. He also got over his power-drunk arrogance that cost him in Cell and Buu.
I always found Vegeta's role in the original timeline (the one where Trunks is from) really bizarre. At least in the timeline we know, they had the Artificial Humans to keep Vegeta alive for and Goku and Piccolo (the only 2 strong enough to fight him) knew they had to keep him alive for Trunks. What was Vegeta's purpose in staying on Earth during the Trunks timeline? Why didn't Goku just fight and murder him as soon as he finished off Cold and Freeza and why was he even accepted by the Earthlings then? And who was to say Vegeta wouldn't become the next big threat to the world once Goku died and what indeed stopped Vegeta from doing exactly that?
How I see it. Goku spared him in the Trunks timeline for the same reason he spared him after the Saiyan Arc (and tried to/succeeded in sparing Frieza). Because Goku just read American Comics and discovered the no kill rule. For all of the bitching that "GOKU IS NOT SUPERMAN" The "Z-Era" for lack of a better term really tried to make him that
The train drawing of Vegeta had me cracking up all day especially his little top hat. Best Freeza Day ever! xD Anyway I'm also a Vegeta fan but how the rest treat him and Bulma's recklessness is needlessly bad writing as he could've served the same purpose of tenuous ally without rolling out the red carpet, handing him a bitch, a house and money. Its just weird.
I've just come to realisation that it was probably this arc that made me indifferent to Vegeta as a character overall. Thanks for constantly putting Dragonball into a new perspective for me.
12:01 - 12:17 Actually, I'm 99% certain that this is precisely what the cartoon did with a few filler scenes, showing him waiting not-so-patiently for Goku to be wished back to earth so he can question Goku on the process of becoming a super saiyan, and when he finds out that Goku is refusing to return, he hijacks a capsule corp spaceship and travels the galaxy in search of Goku. He returns to Earth just in time for Frieza's arrival there. The Garlic Jr. Saga even shows him in a few cutaway scenes interrogating stragglers of the Freiza Army about Goku's whereabouts.
Gotta say I'm looking forward to you roasting Vegeta in the Buu arc. I hope when you discuss that you'll go over how Vegeta was responsible for every story arc since his debut.
Also on your point of TFS, it makes a lot of sense that their version of Goku seems to naively accept Veggie as a "best bud", while the other members of the cast mainly seem to distrust the guy. Even Blooma seems uncomfortable talking about Vegeta to her own son, while the others pretty much admit he's only on their side as a temporary alliance. The help from the anime footage really sells it as well; he's not on their "team", he's just helping them... for the time.
Love the thumbnail and yeah it is utterly grating that he gets worked in so casually without a thought or care paid to what makes sense or the people he's butchered and then 99% of his character development is off-screen so it never feels like he earns it when he does, eventually, express some modicum of guilt for all he's done.
@@vazak11 Thank you. So many people act like Vegeta has so much development. He does but as you said we don't see it. Toriyama just snaps his fingers to turn Vegeta into what he wants.
Imagine Freeza getting redeemed in Dragon Ball. That would be rather dumb. I disliked how Cell didn't come up with the idea to take advantage of Vegeta's stupidity but rather needed to be told about it. Like you mentioned I also disliked how Bulma and Vegeta became a lovers just because. I can buy Goku accepting him even if he doesn't like him, because over the course of the series he did see some of the worst villains to convert into good guys. The only character I don't buy him to accept that easy would be Frieza. Even if Goku spared his life, he made clear that he would punish him in case he appears again before him. Regarding Buu Saga Vegeta, even with the terrible direction the "M on the Forehead" form send him, to me he still is 1 of 3 characters that got actual good development in that arc (which Super ruined by a bunch of retcons such as the potara and still having an obsession to surpass Goku). The other 2 are Mr Satan and fat Majin Buu. If anyone wants to know why I mentioned the potara retcon, here is something that explains why I still wonder why people still like Vegito: pastebin.com/4VDiFbLe
TBF, Dragon Ball has actively involved Showy Invincible Hero from the start, and the Jawbreaker scene is comedy gold. Also, I don't think the Potara timer retcon breaks characterization, because Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have known about that added detail--as far as Vegeta still could have figured at the time of the first Potara fusion, it would have been permanent. Just having to say something.
I never saw how Super ruined Vegeta's end of Buu arc admission that "Goku was better than him". In an early Super episode, Vegeta is training and says something akin to "yes Goku will always be better than me, but just because he is better, does not mean that I will stop training and using him as motivation to be stronger and to rival his skills." Even GT has a moment where Vegeta decides he won't stop training against Goku and trying to surpass him. However, I could be remembering this wrong so If I am wrong than I am sorry.
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think Trunks needs to exist. I don’t dislike him as a character but given how little he actually contributes to the Cell plot after his first warning to the heroes, I think he is a wasted character who doesn’t really need to exist. It’s fascinating to me how Toriyama threw everybody else’s sanity out the window just to accommodate Vegeta into the group so that he could sire a character who does very little, has no on screen character development, has no interesting interactions with the other characters and who permanently leaves the cast to go back to his own timeline after this story ends.
I will go one step further. Trunks was created just to suffer! If you think about it, nothing good has happened to him even after Cell's destruction. He has to return to Earth in his own bleak timeline and after that, Super came. And we all know how Super treated the boy. At this point we would do the boy a mercy killing to him.
SSBM Tobi I think Toriyama designed Trunks then wondered how he could justify making the boy a super Saiyan. Then he decided to make Vegeta the father and scrambled to stick him in the group even if it doesn’t make a lot of sense in order to justify Trunk’s existence and being a super saiyan. There’s almost no character development for Vegeta until the last possible minute to the point where his “redemption” of feeling love for Trunks after Cell kills him feels like an afterthought. Given how tacked on Vegeta’s “redemption” is, I highly doubt Toriyama created Trunks to help facilitate that development.
I was a massive Vegeta fan as a teenager. Not so much nowadays but still get hyped whenever he achieved new forms in Dragon Ball Super. Dragon Ball Dissections have become some of my favourite videos in UA-cam. Thanks for another great episode!
3:23 remember when Kylo Ren x Rey shippers were mad at Kylo's death at the end of TRoS, because they wanted them to be a couple even though Kylo Ren killed his own father, attempted to kill his own mother, and also blew up an entire system of planets thus ending billions of lives all because he had daddy issues? Yeah, that was a thing.
@@jasonone8726honestly reylo is such a big ship, that minority feels like a quarter of people who liked the Rey continuity, and thats still some numbers cause its star wars
I like Vegeta's arc and all that, and it makes sense for his character. But the fact he's ever really forgiven for this is just, I dunno. It doesn't sit right with me. It's selfish and shortsighted and makes the entire rest of the arc happen singlehandedly. I hate it
What Toriyama ought to have done was to have Dende, back when Namek was about to explode, wish back to life everyone who was killed by Frieza EXCEPT for Vegeta. Earlier Dende wanted to let Vegeta die from a mortal wound instead of healing him and only healed him because he had to, so why did he save Vegeta for a second time when it was not necessary to do so?
He probably didn’t think it through very much considering he had to quickly make a wish before namek could explode. Also by the time Vegeta was killed, Dende was dead himself and would have no idea Frieza killed him.
Oh I can't wait for your rant on Vegeta in the early Boo arc. It is somehow worse than this instance. Thing is he doesn't share any blame that time. It was all his fault. For the sake of surpassing and defeating Goku. Who was dead and whom hardly ever interacted with one an other. Due to Goku being gone 80% of the time. Suddenly there it is important again. Then he later has the gal to be angry at Goku. Instead of the other way around. He then whines for the umpteenth time that Goku us stronger than him. That Goku held back.. Goku should have said f off. This mess is your fault. Now your family is gone because of it. It doesn't help matters that Goku lets his sons die later on. The Cell and Boo arcs are riddled with dumb character decions. The one person who wasn't stupid was Mr. Satan. He never made the situation worse. He was far more useful than everyone except maybe Goku.
Ok a few things 1Vegeta does share the blame, the fight with kid buu, before Goku, or Mr.S asked to give Goku energy, Vegeta was the first to ask, and guess what no one listened to him, because of what he did, so no Vegeta 2 Goku had the gal to ask him to fuse, even though 1) Vegeta doesn't like Goku, 2) Goku held back in a life or death (at least that's what was intended to be), and 3 (I don't know if I'm remembering this right) but Vegeta was already mad about coming back to life I'm not saying Vegeta is right, I just can see why he's pissed It's like someone asking a favor, of someone whose request they didn't take, regardless of whether they feel that person deserved it or not Now because I agree with you other point about Vegeta, I'm gonna bring up Goku because you make it seem like Goku is blameless in this, he's not because he refused to use SS3 on Vegeta and ended it quickly WHY? Because Vegeta is too much a threat at this point, and before you bring up the fact it would have shortened his life, he used it on Buu who is way above Majin Vegeta, Goku even said he could have beaten Buy with ss3, meaning he could have ended quickly, b4 Majin Buu got the enough energy to resurrect
@@treythegamerwolf551 They don't comply because of that. They don't know it was him. They refuse to listen to Goku the one who saved them so many times.
@@spartanq7781 yes most didn't listen to Goku, but many did, especially the Z fighters, and those close to Goku, you know the same ones that didn't answer when Vegeta asked, literally no one answered when Vegeta asked
@@treythegamerwolf551 They do give Goku energy when he asks. The ones who don't have no idea who he even is. They know Goku though so then they give him the energy. I know that scene well. I know I'm right.
7:53 But don't you know? In the Dragon Ball universe, they can instantly evacuate people even when they are standing right in front of a super villain when he does a similar destruction attack. It's also a world where buildings are conveniently empty on Sunday, people instantly bail out of exploding helicopters with invisible parachutes, pilots can instantly eject when their planes are exploding, and navy ships can be instantly abandoned as they blow up. I love Chris Psaros' reactions to those scenes. Did they think kids were that stupid or were they trying to appease censors who think kids are that stupid? Even without seeing the uncut version, I knew there was something wrong with that "instant evacuation" and characters be blown up being "sent to another dimension." I think they just found a flimsy way of taking advantage of the fact that so many characters die by being engulfed in energy blasts and disappearing.
For characters who change yet still have to face the consequences of their previous actions, look at the Batman Beyond episode "Meltdown," in particular, the scene where a man attempts to assassinate Victor Fries because Mr. Freeze killed his family.
Agreed on everything about Vegeta. I hate it when entertainment does the whole redeemed villain thing in that kind of way. It's also what I hate about the kind of stories that are supposedly "dark and realistic" but just end up as us being supposed to root for murderers
thanks for the honest vegeta review. i remember when i liked vegeta as a kid. when they aired all of dbz from the beginning again, i was like this is the guy i liked. i instantly had a strong dislike towards the character and his popularity. then what they did with trunks in super. trunks might as well have not been born. piccolo was right. aint no redeeming what vegeta has done... yet vegeta is the fan favorite... seems sus.
If Vegeta's use in this story seems sloppy, that is because he initially was not supposed to be there. Toriyama tried to keep Vegeta with the heroes because the fans asked, begged, pleaded, for Vegeta to be kept around. In one of the anniversary mangas, Vegeta mocks the Toribot for being too well liked to get rid of and Toribot admits he never expected anyone with Vegeta's haircut to become popular. If I had my way, Vegeta would fall have been sidelined after the Buu arc and the Fat Majin Buu would have become Goku's new rival in GT and Super.
That would explain so much but in that case his death by Freeza would have been the perfect end. His death in the next arc would have also been a good point to end his story for good.
Great video! Probably one of the best DBD episodes overall. I think a fairly easy remedy for the whole Vegeta thing could be Trunks. Trunks is a pragmatist, but he also seeks connection with his father. It's irrational, but it's a human desire that's understandable. Have Kuririn suggest letting him die, but Trunks quietly protest saying he doesn't want to that. Perhaps a compromise they make is Kuririn rescues Vegeta but refuses to fully heal him. And when Goku returns he threatens to kill him if he does anything.
A question about DB that I think about now and then is: Will Vegeta be sent to hell once he dies once and for all? I mean, yeah, he cleaned up his act later in his life and became one of Earth's protectors, but he's still a genocidal maniac. He wiped out entire planets mercilessly, and I suppose Enma Daioh hasn't forgot abut that.
I never liked Cell knocking out Krillin, because it wasn't a good way to showcase his new power. Krillin was already no match for him in his first form, plus, we had already seen Krillin knocked down from just one hit, a number of times, so this wasn't anything new. We really didn't need him to explain that Vegeta was gonna lose. As I mentioned, Cell was already out of his league before he transformed.
Yeah, I know we all think Vegeta's kinda cool sometimes, but he was really an ass for SO long. He didn't actually become a remotely decent person until damn near the end of the Buu Saga. And as much as Dragon Ball Super can be a freakin' mess, pretty much the only thing it did right was mature and (somewhat) smooth him out as a character.
While Vegeta is my favorite character. I agree 100%. There should have been at least some more negativity about Vegeta coming from Goku and Friends. Also Majin Vegeta makes sense because of this. He NEVER CHANGED. The reason I'm guessing they left Vegeta around post buu saga simply because there was like 3 people stronger than him and he kinda had a family now. Especially since (atleast according to my memory) Bulma states she just thought Vegeta was being controlled and it wasn't his own will. I would Believe that Goku wouldn't tell Bulma the truth. That he did it out of his own will to make himself like he used to be. Though I will be honest his "Final Atonement" attack does redeem him somewhat...if only he killed buu.
I'm currently writing a FanFiction of DBZ that's over 400,000 words and I'm so glad someone finally understands. Like, Vegeta is interesting and I like him more than a fair amount of the cast but he's just allowed to be so ridiculously evil and irredeemable for no reason. The cast just don't care. It's so strange. Vegeta's arc in the Buu Saga is godlike but it comes at the cost of practically every single other cast members agency to occur. It's why I didn't put him in the main cast, it just doesn't make sense to keep him around.
DBZA also excellently portrays how Bulma became interested in Vegeta, first inviting him to live with her solely to spite Yamcha after their breakup, and then sharing a night of impulsive passion after getting feisty in an argument. And I love her explanation to Trunks in the future, that she identified with his power, stubbornness, and desperation for recognition. I actually find it weirdly believable that she was attracted to him for being Yamcha's opposite on almost every level. After years of being with a poor dolt who probably never once stood up to her, it was probably really hard to get the proud prince who doesn't take a single ounce of shit from anybody out of her head after they boned. He was probably a breath of fresh air, like she realised that she actually prefers a guy who doesn't necessarily listen to her. Bulma is a weird chick; I dunno.
Once again, TFS demonstrates an understanding of her character that doesn't exist in the source material, when she describes Vegeta to Trunks after the latter's return to future time: "A short, stubborn, powerful person, desperate for recognition - as a female scientist in her early thirties, I... guess I identified with that."
Yup, Vegeta is an awesome character. His relationships could work better with the others but they should have happened a little more (maybe a lot) organically, especially showing the turn for Bulma. Not only that about face after Vegeta says he murdered the whole village of Namekians, when they're back on earth, but on Namek she was scared to death of him. So, where'd that rational fear go? In reality, as far as redemption, this would be like trying to reform ten Hitlers in one, or more. Especially in the anime, where he's shown wiping out PLANETS, like whole ecosystems of sentient life, without a flicker of care. By this point he's been neutered by Goku and even his son for so long, he's acting out like a spoiled child whose had all restrictions removed. He is hell on earth, and the only reason Krillin has to not kill him, or the others do, is that they don't want to hurt Bulma and Trunks. But yeah he would definitely be too dangerous. Then again, once Goku and Gohan reemerge from the Time Chamber, Vegeta is back to being hardly a threat again. Goku, above the others, really has figured out how to get Vegeta's goat, press his buttons. I like that far better than Abridged's version of him being a complete naive idiot. You can see in the actual story, Goku's figured Vegeta out and it's a conscious thing. It's awesome, really.
That Vegeta Trolley Problem art is my new favorite thing and exemplifies his Cell Saga character to a T. Vegeta is my favorite character in the whole of Dragonball, but he's definitely an asshole through most of it. If the other characters had brains, they'd have cast him out...though he was stronger than everyone else before Goku showed back up, so what could they really do? I need that Trolley Art as a shirt design.
"Where's the fun in watching people punch an invincible brick wall?"
Not going to lie, I expected an image of Jiren to pop up onscreen.
Or Buu, he was reduced to smoke and still came back like nothing happened!
That really made a great majority of the Jiren shit terribly dull to watch. It stops having shock and awe after like, a minute. And this is the case for 99% of the arc.
@@ganoninthepit
It's because Toei expected us fans to merely enjoy the ToP's spectacle and nothing more, since arguably the spectacle is the only thing about DragonBall is all we enjoy about the series.
Yes, we both know why that's bullcrap, but that was Toei's thinking apparently...
@@DemonicRemption They needed to nerf Jiren a little
@@DemonicRemption I enjoyed the spectacle. I brought beer every saturday. Get drunk and play the latest episode. And I would have a blast!
A train wouldn't hurt any of these characters Lance...it would just break.
Video debunked!
But the 2nd train has Super Vegeta driving it ergo it is now a Super Choo Choo so they all gonna die. Video rebunked!
+@@MistareFusion i hope you didn't take this as me being serious and missing the point.......I'm actually just joking
Oh, I know. That's why I favorited it!
Well you're no fun.
Finally, someone recognizes Vegeta as he actually is.
I see him as more akin to IDW Megatron, a criminal so ruthless that the only people that could judge him are divine gods
And you want to know something funny and sad? It's truth in television.
Look up Pedro Rodrigues Filho- a brutal cartel murderer who killed at LEAST 71 people of all ages, and then he got out of prison and became a popular and successful UA-camr, telling his fans how shitty the murderous criminal lifestyle is from experience.
Vegeta's popularity isn't just "Oh it's just a silly escapist anime, real people would never idolize a guy like that"
12:30 It's even worse once you realise this context:
Bulma: Hey Namekians that haven't been killed by Vegeta, wanna come live with me?
Namekians: Okay
Bulma: Hey Vegeta, wanna come live with me together with the Namekians you haven't killed yet?
Vegeta: Okay, sounds fun
The months after that before the Namekians went to their new planet must have been the most awkward months at Capsule Corp imaginable, not to mention the most terrifying months of the Namekians' entire lives. It wasn't just a couple of minutes until Freeza, Zarbon, or Dodoria killed them. This was for months! For all the grief Bulma gives Goku for being tactless Bulma is even worse. Not only must Vegeta have been a terror in that he could simply kill them all for fun if he felt like it, he would also be a constant reminder of their own kin that he killed on Namek, the same Namekians that were never brought back.
With the way Toriyama wrote it, the Namekians had likely forgiven him right away and lived happily. For Bulma to act this way, she'd have to be just as psychopathic as he was at the time. So really, they were made for one another.
@@BelartWright Bulma is a hybristophilliac.
@@spambamkeija634 what's that?
@@spambamkeija634 I'd say it's even simpler. I'm watching through the original Dragonball anime now (I read the manga but it was ages ago, so this could just be filler), and as fun a character as Bulma is, I'd characterize her formula as being "Man looks better/tougher than other man = time for an upgrade".
@@ForwardSynthesis A lot of women are like that realistically speaking, whether it's conscious or subconscious, so I see no problem with it to be quite frank.
Your Vegeta point is awesome and dead on. I've always wondered why he was so welcomed on earth after everything. His job was literally genocide of and enslaving entire planets yet no one cares about it. Vegeta never even faced justice at any point. Krillin vogue's for him, someone who has seen his evil up close. Even in the next arc he slaps away every hand extended to him. Maybe being second fiddle to goku, something that eats him up every second of every day, is the universe punishing him.
Godzilla00X him getting his ass kicked by every new foe seems to serve as justice
@@ZaygetRIGHT No it isn't because he kept doing it.
Godzilla00X exactly. Another problem is that so much of Vegeta’s development takes place off panel, like the beginning of his relationship with Bulma, them getting married and him settling into the role of family man after the end of cell games.
I honestly think that Toriyama only kept Vegeta around after the end of Frieza saga because of how popular he was.
Basically, he went from a villain to the anti-Goku. Don’t get me wrong, I like him and Bulma as a couple, and his eventual character growth, but it was definitely rushed and not fleshed out as well as it could have been.
The anime at least made it make sense by putting Vegeta outside out of Earth for almost the entirety of the time skip, where he was searching for Kakarott. He just came back on the same day as Freeza and Gokū did. The only people who ever welcomed him were Bulma and her family.
Jin Jusuke Good point. And I suppose that after he and Bulma had trunks together, the rest of the dragon team were forced to tolerate vegeta due to simple association( I.e. he’s important to Bulma and trunks, so even though the others don’t like him, they don’t do anything about it because they know that they’re “ stuck” with him now)
TFS-TIEN: Until we meet again. Which will probably be when the world's in danger, so just... keep a close eye on Vegeta.
TFS Trunks: can you guys get a read on him?
@@thetruejobros872 TFS Gohan: Not even close!
@@38procentkrytyk hahaha nice
That brings to mind a major complaint of mine. The fact that the series has so many time skips. Post the conclusion of an arc. So we rarely see character interactions. Not only that they also seem to never vist each other. It is a disappointing lack of friendship. There needed more interactions in times of peace. That largely went away post the 23rd Budokai arc. Which is a shame.
;-;
Ahhhh, Vegeta the prince of all murderers, back at it again.
This...seems actually...incredibly accurate by far besides everything else I've already seen about Vegeta's nicknames ! :o
Yet no one cares.
@@spartanq7781 Old comment, but Goku had lots of kills in Dragonball. He ate lots of people too lol
I think the Anime fixed Vegeta's inclusion in the group where he hops into space with a ship Dr. Brief made in a filler story before returning just as Freeza and King Cold are on the way to Earth. He's got nowhere else to go except, well, Earth after failing to find Goku. The story treats his "inclusion" as tenuous and awkward as you'd expect too as he's just now settling in, him balking at the pink shirt above else.
Of course, the Freeza Arc's ending was overall benefited by the slower pace of the Anime compared to the Manga which seemed eager to get it over with. One would think Toriyama would prefer more of a breather after a action-packed storyline.
I know many bring up the Anime as a counterpoint but it can't be under-emphasized how it was most of our exposure to Dragon Ball and while a lot of BS the Manga had made it in there, a lot of issues were mitigated in some form or another. I'm sure you'll have a lot to say about "Trunks The Story" in that regard. :P
Yes, it's definitely better.
That is why I always say the Anime is better than the Manga. Sure, there are shitty filler episodes too and some of them are dragged out like the Fake Namek Saga, but we still got gems like the Driver's License Episode and the characters are more active such as Krillin trying to safe people from Cell.
matt0044 it still doesn’t make any sense tho because vegeta still is accepted by the group despite what he’s done
Kai probably strikes a nice balance between the two. The fight in z is too drawn out.
if Bulma existed in our world, she'd be the type of girl who would write love letters to Charlie Manson in prison.
ico128 or ted bundy
She would hook up with Hittler even if she was Jewish.
@@spartanq7781 "You know how nobody likes Hitler? Well I did the math, and I'm like five million Hitlers"
Remember Bulma hooked up with Yamcha who was originally a bandit, and crushed on General Blue and Zarbon.
I know this is a joke but Charlie Manson did/does have a big number of female followers.
After seeing that hilarious thumbnail, I just _had_ to watch this.
DBZMacky Same haha! 😂😭😂
Yeah been lookin at it on twitter and i was just thursty for this vid
It would be better if Cell was being puzzled
@@multilad816 He should be laughing at everyone's idiocy.
I just realized something putting this rant into perspective: Frieza in the Tournament of Power was a far more competent character than Vegeta was in this arc. Frieza, the _villain_ was a better team player than Vegeta, the _anti-hero_ .
Frieza never betrayed anyone. He was earning wins left and right, schemed to get rid of the craftier opponents, ensured that the strongest allies never got kicked out, even if they were his most hated enemy. When someone had a plan, he listened and immediately cooperated and he never actively made the situation worse, well at least not in the manga. I'll let him provoking Toppo into transforming into a God of Destruction slide since neither he or anyone else in Universe 7 knew anything about him, whereas Vegeta clearly knew Cell could transform again and get stronger. And the best part that Frieza was still written consistently, and very well, I might add.
Frieza said he would still continue to do evil things
How is frieza written well or better than he was in z ?
@@ifeanyiozoh3097 Frieza saying he would continue to do evil things is why he's consistent. He was never given an incentive to mend his ways nor did Goku ask him to do so. He's written consistently because he's a devious bastard who kept his own team on the edge of their seats, suspicious he might backstab the team and he certainly did come off that way at times.. He's written better in Super because he's not nearly as arrogant or stupid as he was back then. Here in the Tournament of Power, he is given a third chance to resume his reign and so decides to play it smart and the only way he's going to get back into a position of power is by helping them. He didn't pointlessly backstab anyone or gloat about how he's better than the Saiyans. Instead, he cooperates with and even _supports_ them, making sure they all stay in the ring because he's smart enough to recognize that the obstacles he's facing against will require their help, loathed as he is to help them
Always felt frieza was the best character in the top
Vegeta: *murders countless innocents including children along with screwing everyone over*
Fans: "Oh man he's just like me!"
Oh god I hope that's not true. The thought is terrifying to me.
Self hate, huh? Go figure.
Are you saying you haven't destroyed multiple planets and committed at least 30 some odd genocides?
Pff, pussy.
vegetas meant to be a villain through and through and only appear until freeza clearly and after that at best a anti hero until kid buu..that's a fact...he was written as a one to 2 arc villain anti hero ally until freeza kills him...then he comes back has no purpose other than to be mad at goku and the villains and needing conflict to solve in his otherwise meaningless life..he values power cause its how he was raised which makes sense but then he abandons this at the end so I don't know who he is...or who hes meant for..hes inconsistent..development is good but this dude has a kid yet wont protect it?..okay...he hates his son that came back to warn him about a future threat..why?...
@@MasterKnightDH he was supposed to be a villain for most of the series.
I'm surprised this isn't brought up, but Toriyama could have given Vegeta a vendetta against 18 for humiliating him earlier, and that's why he was so keen on letting Cell absorb her.
Honestly that would make far more sense than Vegeta uncharacteristically let Cell become perfect for a challenge. The same guy who made tons of underhanded sneak attacks or even killing unconscious people because it was easier in the last arc. Now he actively enables an opponent become stronger by outside means. Not only that but his insanely idiotic allies looks the other way. It's somehow even worse in the next arc and they still forgive him. The more Vegeta behaves like a egotistical jack ass and the more the others continue to look the other way the worse every single character becomes.
@SpartanQ77 I disagree that it was uncharacteristic. This is the same guy who told Frieza to transform and said no to Bulma's idea to find Gero before he could create the Androids, despite hearing that they killed him in the future. This was stupid, but totally in character for him to let Cell get stronger. Just like Goku, he wants to fight strong guys to test his power, especially since he thought he was invincible.
@@jasonone8726Vegeta asking Freeza to transform isnt stupid as MF himself stated that was needed to not make Freeza get back up in a corner and have a trump card it was to the point
@nicholassims9837 It was stupid. This was the start of the running joke in this franchise of letting the antagonists power up instead of taking them down. Vegeta was able to hold back first from Frieza. He probably had a better chance of winning if he didn't allow this.
@@jasonone8726 no it was smart MF stated that if Vegeta hadn't then Freeza after a few hits would have transform on the spot and killed everyone who would now be tired from the first fight.
Asking Freeza to transform was a calculating risk but it was a good risk as it met no energy was wasted from a pointless fight . And no Vegeta couldn't beat first form Freeza as he can transform at will so it would be punch punch punch and the second it looks like Freeza is losing he transforms and gets stronger so Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan wasted energy on a fight that was meaningless.
It's nice to see someone else who doesn't brush all the horrible things Vegeta has done under the rug, this video highlights why I'm not a fan of him.
I think his work ethic resonates with people. Enjoying a character doesnt meam agreeing with his actions. And people dont like to see a character get shafted in favor of another just because. Until super, they seem to go out of their way to make sure goku always has the advantage over vegeta. Super at least treats them as equals and if vegeta falls behind hes able to close the gap.
Dragon Ball Super was the first time I ever even remotely sympathized with Vegeta. I've never liked him, but I found him somewhat entertaining until the end of the Buu saga. By that point I just wanted him to go away. It wasn't until the Tournament Of Power, when he was actually fighting for good cause, that I almost felt bad when Jiren merciless beat his ass and tortured him. And even then, I at no point forgot Vegeta was exponentially worse than Jiren could ever hope to be, I just couldn't help but sympathize with the fact Vegeta was suffering for a motivation than was in no way selfish.
"wheres the fun in watching people punch an invincible brick wall" i think im getting a clue where buu saga will be ranked.
Yeah but I strangely like Buu because he really is over the top with the powers and transformations, even his personality changes once he absorbs people. I mean he turns enemies into candy and eats them!
Plus y'know his flesh sinks in then pops back out when you punch him so not really a brick wall. I like the Buu saga since power levels were getting ridiculous but finally they start playing it a little more humorously.
@@Irrelevant402 It's a fun story... In the anime, where it's fleshed out slightly more, and a lot of the humour is done really well. There's not exactly a lot of dramatic tension in Buu as a threat, however. The Dragon Balls never stop existing, so the heroes themselves aren't bothered by any deaths. A good portion of the human population is destroyed but it's still seen as a game to most of them.
I'm looking forward to its analysis.
This entire arc for the most part have bern negative. They mount up. To say one negative about the Boo arc alone is worse is baffling. I'm not going to beat around the bush I have a lot of problems with both arcs and the Piccolo arc. He does too it's why they all have the bottom three ranks. The only reason the Freeza arc isn't lower is the former half. The latter half is about as frustrating to me. Yet Toriyama kept making the same mistakes. Somehow despite this they're the most popular arcs. Proving again popularity and quality are not interchangeable.
@@spartanq7781 Well the popularity varies by region. I think Japan liked Buu and the Majin arc more and were a little colder towards Cell as an arc and villain. While Cell is really popular in the U.S. and Buu wasn't. So I was like 'hey I'm the one American that likes Majin Buu and that arc!'
@@Irrelevant402 Majin Boo is the better villain and arc. The arc has character growth and real tension. Except for the evil Boo section. There is also no time travel that is good enough on it's own. Boo isn't a horror esque villain whom ruins it. The arc pits him as unstoppable from the start. It isn't everyone screwing up and making things worse. Again except the evil Boo section. However his regeneration is far worse than even Cell. I didn't think it was possible. At least he doesn't ever magically get stronger when he does. A good villain does not need such absurd advantages. The villains before them were just unstoppable. Freeza came close to crossing that line. He had far too many transformations at will. Then he survived getting cut in pieces. Which pissed me off so much. Cell and Boo crossed that line by a long shot. At least GT and Super didn't give that absurd advantage to most enemies.
I am definitely torn on the Vegeta stuff.
On one hand, Vegeta is probably the most consistently written and overall has the best written character arc in the series...
But on the other hand none of the other characters should have put up with him long enough to have that character arc, as you pointed out.
Toriyama kept Vegeta around and knew how to utilize him. However he doesn't give the other characters a realistic reaction to his selfish and dangerous actions.
Mr Satan have the best written character arc not Vegeta
The thing about Vegeta is, he lived his entire life as a slave.
The job he was coerced/forced to do was kill and enslave others.
He made it his life's mission to survive and one day stand over his torturer by any means necessary.
Cruel actions became par for the course, and that shaped his personality.
He was always looking for a way out and not letting anything get in his way, including his first mission on Earth.
After Freeza's death it's the first time in his life he is "free", conquering Earth gains him nothing(if he even is capable as a non SSJ vs the team up of Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn and Tien, certainly not capable of holding that position when Goku arrives), but the planet and it's inhabitants also mean nothing to him.
He's new life is centered on "being the strongest", unlike Goku who just enjoys fighting, Vegeta fights to display his superiority and satisfy his ego(often focussed around Goku but applies to everyone else), and you can't be "superior" by simply efficiently dispatching enemies while they are at their weakest, that's what Freeza or King Piccolo would do, not the proud Vegeta.
@@spartanq7781 what do you think of the stuff Sam Judge is saying here on this video?
Except Trunks obviously. But yeah, this issue is more with the rest of the cast. Vegeta's reformation makes no sense, but that's because everybody just accepts him before he does anything good, show any remorse, and while he enables the villains to do horrible things.
Oh the buu arc is going to be interesting!
I, too, cannot wait for Vegeta's midlife crisis.
@@DJmouchi777 i tottaly agree on that
Vegeta finnaly pays back for all the shit he has done
@@DJmouchi777 To be fair, I can understand why Vegeta would be having a mid-life crisis. The guy was previously a mass murdering psychopath who seemed fairly okay with the idea of killing billions of people by blowing up the Earth when he was fighting Goku. During the lead-in to the Buu Arc, he hadn't killed one person in seven years.
I'm interesting to see him talk about Buu's many forms especially the popular Super Buu vs Kid Buu debate
I'm pretty sure when people call Vegeta a role model they mean after he stops killing people. At least I hope so.
Oh god I hope so. Otherwise I would be scared shitless.
he copulated with bulma at least twice, thats quite a role to look up to for most anime fans.
Jon Mahashintina
That’s not saying much I mean Bulma is kinda loose.
Your Mom i think many of those people admire more aspects like his tough attitude and stuff like that and not the murderous aspects and similar stuff and the fact that hes a fictional character means that quite a few people are willing to overlook the horrible stuff vegeta does in contrast to if he lived in real life
He stops killing? Even in Super, he murders a lot of soldiers and Goku is against that shit. It's almost one scene from the Devil May Cry reboot
Thank you! People forget about that Namekian village that Vegeta wiped out. Those Namekians werent even wished back. That was my impetus for not liking Vegeta for a loooooooong time after. And yet this character was rewarded time and time again. #justicefornamekians Those train track illustrations are hilariously accurate btw.
I actually wonder why the Namekian's don't do the thing Vegeta suggested to revive Goku. Wish their souls to the new Namek and revive them all
@@M3rtyville Actually, maybe they did. Off-screen. 10 years is room for 30 wishes.
Also the city Nappa destroyed when they arrived.
Also, while Vegeta didn't do this one, those people on the island south of South City, where 19 and 20 showed up, were never wished back to life!
#NamekianLivesMatter
14:37 Much as I love that idea and its phrasing, it's not an option at the moment due to Goku and Gohan... so what Kuririn should really do is fly over that ocean right behind him and drop the bastard right in. Whoops!
After all, Vegeta got a stay of execution at his hands, and Goku's totally not lived up to his promise to kick Vegeta's ass the next time he saw him, so once again, our heroic monk must pick up the slack.
The problem on Goku us Toriyama just refused to develop him. Goku is absent for far too long. His and Vegeta's rivalry had no way of growing or sequestering. That is one of my biggest problems. If not the biggest problem I have with Vegeta being around instead of Goku.
I love Vegeta, but I completely agree with everything you said. I'm sort of glad he continued to be in the series, but really it doesn't make much sense at all that any of the good guys would accept him, and this is a factor that makes the arcs after the Frieza saga kind of lesser in quality for me than the previous ones, cuz it felt like Toriyama just kind of stopped caring a bit and didn't think too hard about things like this. Honestly I feel it would've been better if Vegeta just stayed dead after the Frieza saga, as I felt that was a satisfying ending to his character. And it seems stuff like this is maybe happening with Frieza now, which I absolutely hate. It was hard to imagine Vegeta ever redeeming himself, but Frieza? Fuck off with that business. Why can't good villains just stay dead?
"Why can't good villains stay dead?"
Simple; it's all about that sweet sweet cash lmao.
Long story short, it's been argued many times by many fans that Perfect Cell would've been better fit for the Universe 7 team than Freeza inthe TOP arc but was canned as the animators didn't want to deals with his spots and the simple fact that Freeza is far more marketable than (arguably) any villain DB villain.
Makes sense, though honestly I would just like it if both never came back. I love them but they had their moments to shine. But I can't stop em, only thing I can do is just pretend Super is about as canon as GT is now.
So you expected the Z warriors without goku to refuse the strongest guy there and get killed?
i would preffer if they made android 21 canon for the TOP arc.
No, they expect the z warriors to still visably hate him like in the freeza saga
For whatever reason, I always found everyone accepting Vegeta kinda funny, like they could FEEL the author’s intent and just felt compelled to. Even if most of them seem to have forgotten what he did, at least Toriyama doesn’t. Every time someone whines abt why Toriyama hates Vegeta so much or why he always has him lose/job, I just remind them of all the evil shit he did lol
The good guys must’ve seen his redemption coming, or were too scared to confront him or something. *shrug*
I always saw Vegeta letting Cell become perfect as a combination of ego and wanting to watch 18 S U F F E R. If anything is consistent abt Vegeta, it’s that he LOVES watching ppl get what he feels they deserve
The only real reason I prefer Namek Arc Vegeta is that he was less stressful to watch, but I still rly like him...for now. Oh and this isn’t specifically relevant to this vid, but I hate how bc Vegeta was redeemed, ppl believe every villain who was less evil than Vegeta also should’ve been redeemed. As if Toriyama hadn’t done enough reformations. And even under these special circumstances, Vegeta took forever to truly become good
“Hey Vegeta, we’re friends now, right?”
“F*ck off”
“The best.”
Tia Blue I agree I feel like the anime handled this better whenever vegeta was around the other warriors post freeza arc him stealing a capsule ship while everyone is using the dragon balls and coming back to earth yamcha and the other ask why he’s on earth posing as if they were about to fight until bulma intefers somewhat flirting with him having trouble adjusting to earth since toriyama can’t write romance him and bulma formed some sexual relationship that only went as far as one night of passion. However he pretty much was labeled the friend nobody likes in the androids and cell arc krillin hesitates whether or not he should give him a senzu twice one after killing #19 the other after the fight with 17 and 18 tien holds a grudge on him and questions how yamcha can Stand being around him when vegeta is
unconscious after his beating from cell krillin scolds him for his stupid actions and his selfishness going as far as to call his pride stupid and say if it were up to him he leave him to die so there’s still a little tension .. there were other scenes he mocks piccolo when he comes out the chamber however piccolo doesn’t entertain him he stands alone while watching the cell games isolated standing away from the other hero’s goku breaks up a verbal argument a second away from leading to a fight between piccolo and vegeta while the group was discussing the training in preparation for the upcoming threat in 3 years
At this point after Cell is defeated deal with Vegeta. It's insane how they forgive him so quickly again. It's even more insane he does it again but worse in the next arc. Especially since the reason was even pettier and after he's supposedly been domesticated. At that point Goku should kill him. It would be dark since he's a husband and father at that point. Enough is enough by that point. Toriyama failed at redeeming Vegeta at a believable level. I just don't get why they tolerate Vegeta. Or Majin Boo for that matter. Toriyama crammed Vegeta's redemption late in the Boo arc. Despite him going to hell earier. It feels like post Freeza arc Vegeta he honestly has no place in the series. It feels like Toriyama subconsciously felt this way himself. As he wanted Vegeta to be a anti villan. The problem is the line has been crossed too many times. It was why I said before Tenshinhan's rebuttal and questioning Yamcha feels wasted. They never get up in Vegeta's face again. I can see if Vegeta apologized and tried to correct his mistake. Hell he apologizes to Gohan but not to Trunks. You know his son who at that point was killed because of his recklessness.
Spartan Q77 Goku had no opportunity to try and kill Vegeta in the Boo saga, during their fight he couldn’t risk giving Boo *more* energy by going SSJ3, and by the time Goku came to Vegeta was already dead and gone. Then when he was brought back he was needed more than ever for the plot/ fusion, so there was no reason to hold a grudge in that moment when everything was on the line. Then by the end of the saga Vegeta was “one of the good guys” as determined by the wish granting dragon so i guess *it all worked out in the end...*(slight anger)
@@Zaylovesu2 I say this so many times but the story could have easily been written that way. Trying to use in universe excuses are baseless. Since this is fiction it can be whatever the writter wants i.e. Toriyama. It doesn't happen simply because he didn't write it that way. That is what I'm complaining about.
Spartan Q77 so your complaint is that the story didn’t progress in a way that you liked? which would be a *historian fallacy*, however using in-universe lore to explain why things happen as they do is baseless, as opposed to just saying the story shouldn’t have been written that way or written differently.
also it may be fiction and primarily up to the writers desire, but Toriyama has editors that either suggest he makes a change or just straight up tells him. as we have already seen *twice* in this arc alone.
@@Zaylovesu2 Well yes it is my opinion. If I find a problem with something I have free reign to complain. It bothers me how it is brushed aside so quickly. That is the main problem. Let's not beat around the bush the latter half of the series is poorly written most of the time. The other things I mentioned in my initial comment are my real complaints.
It was because of Toriyama's editor that Vegeta became a villain again but they dropped the ball with it. The fight lasted only for a chapter and it was pretty much a waste of time.
People say apparently Piccolo suppose to be evil, but I mean what's the point. It was way to inorganic so Vegeta needed to have a stupid reason so Babidi didn't take control of somebody angry again.
Other than that, I think Vegeta's and Fat Majin Buu's arc were handled pretty well as well as Mr Satan.
What a take, in here I am believing Vegeta's crime was just swept under the rug by the fandom, like " this is dragon ball hence this is fine " kinda thing
It feels kinda refreshing
Wow, I’m honestly really surprised that most Vegeta fans I’m seeing on here aren’t pissed off, that honesty makes me so happy. Great video, easily the best Christmas gift, and I loved @sometimeshector’s art. It’s always nice to see artwork or comments from fans of DBD.
We're not irrational, we just love an irrational man is all :D
This channel is filled with not blind but people and the best parts in the community
Its not that much of a surprise they could actually swallow this hard pill
Majin Silver
Oh I know, and I definitely agree. I’ve been following MistareFusion for almost two years now, but he still gets some hate from the other parts of the fandom. Just like he did in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai anime video. That’s why I’m pretty shocked there isn’t too many Vegeta fans upset. He even admitted on Twitter he was scared about his wording in this video (I think he did an excellent job) but yeah even with some hate, his comment section is usually filled with actual discussion instead of “You said something bad about the thing I like, I hate you!!”
@@christiansmusz4895 he did well on uploading this
This is the reason i cant say i love vegeta i just like him
People who admire him need to know that the mass genocide he caused since he was a little boy still lives till this day and no one had been rezsurected...i dont even know how could someone like him before the buu saga
Those parts of the fandom aint open minded and prefer to forget the past instead of handling their issues like real people and tbh can go fuck themselvs
- woofer - Because fans of vegeta accept his flaws and discuss how he could be better where as fanboys will ignore all tht shit and be in denial and get triggered for stating an opinion and curse you out if you don’t agree with them
oh man i CANT WAIT for Mistare to absolutely rip Vegeta apart in the Buu arc. Im interested to hear what he’ll say about Vegeta’s suicide attack. Most people herald that as Vegetas redemption and the pinnacle of his character arc. in reality its just him failing to fix his own catastrophic petty mistakes
Vegetas battle vs kid buu is his true redemption
Damn Toriyama for your constant fake outs in that arc.
@@spartanq7781 While I do like the final attack, the second half of that arc is just "here is the ultimate power - Vegeta Final Explosion/SSJ3/Ultimate Gohan/Gotenks/Vegito" and then all those things failing dramatically.
@@sigilbreaker2628 That is what I was sarcastically complaining about. Those are the fake outs I was referring to. I do like moments in between them and the final battle though.
He doesn't even see them as mistakes though thats the issue with his alleged progress, it's needlessly forced.
He did psycho shit again, didn't regret ANY OF IT...AGAIN then realizes he loves his family so he's gonna die for them...if one is even alive after his stadium attack. If he had fought against being Majin then this would've been fine but as is? HA!
Trunks could still exists without Vegeta. He's basically a warning from the future, so it doesn't have to be "Vegeta's son". Toriyama wanted someone else to turn Super Saiyajin for shock value, and once again...it didn't have to be Vegeta's son. It could have been Goten or even Gohan's son. Vegeta stuck around because he's cool and readers liked him. Plain and simple.
Honestly, Gohan himself could've come back from the future, and the same effect would've been achieved. He was only pushing 30 or in his early 30s in that timeline. All that would have changed would've been instead of there being a Trunks, Gohan would be the only survivor of the Z fighters. Would've made Gohan apparently being the "hero" of the arc (despite barely being in it at all) have more catharsis, too. It would have begun with him, a failed version of himself from the future, and ended with him in the present succeeding and correcting the timeline
Waking up to uploads from both MistareFusion and TeamFourStar brought me back to being a child and having a naive sense of wonder and hope, as opposed to being a boring old adult with a foreboding sense of melancholy and despair. Thanks guys!
This entire sequence of Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb 18 is Toriyama bending the characters to make the plot move along.
First is Vegeta. Why does he let Cell absorb 18? For the challenge? Why? Vegeta has not been shown to allow his opponents any quarter. He is ruthless in combat, killing or taking advantage of his opponents any way he can to win. We saw this in how he slices Gohan's tail off instead of fighting the Great Ape form, decapitating Guldo while the alien is distracted, killing Recoome and Burter while they are incapacitated - he does whatever he has to do to win, and is ruthless. For him to suddenly heel turn and let an opponent he has on the ropes get a power-up is so brazenly out of character for Vegeta, and the Toriyama tells us that this is arrogance is a Saiyan trait as a retcon. That's almost insulting to us readers/viewers.
Next, Trunks. Why doesn't he just kill 18 when he approaches her? He's not Krillin, he doesn't have a crush on her. In fact, his view of 18 is that she's a horrible monster. So, he should have no qualms about just killing her. And nothing is stopping him either since by this point he's much stronger than her. We see him waste no time in destroying the 18 from his timeline, so why doesn't he just kill her here?
Lastly, is 18 herself. Why is she just standing there? Because she doesn't want to leave 16 there? Why? Cell has no interest in 16, and 16 is no longer a threat to Cell. Does she feel like she can't run? That doesn't make sense. 18 has no ki! Cell cannot sense her - he only found 17 because 17 was fighting Piccolo and he followed Piccolo's ki signature. If 18 would have run off and just laid low, Cell would never have found her. Never mind that he'd be killed by Trunks, Goku or Gohan during his futile search.
Toriyama just demanded we just accept this much stupidity in a handful of chapters and just take it. This arc was really the beginning of the steep decline of the quality of writing in the series - Buu just emphasized it.
Yea, the contrivances in the Cell arc are through the roof.
More so than anything else that came before.
@@gespenst1329 Off the top of my head, I'd say you're absolutely correct. Up to this point, THIS was the sloppiest writing Toriyama exhibited with Dragon Ball.
The more I listen to this part of the series, the more I want to read a fanfic where someone tries to rewrite the Cell Saga to make everything make more sense. From the Dragon Team being more proactive about Trunks's warning, to it backfiring when the maintime Androids prove more powerful than those from the bad future, to the human cast actually being useful, to Cell not info dumping his life story, to everyone actually being uncomfortable around Vegeta, to Krillin actually debating compassion versus pragmatism instead of just listening to his dick, to whatever criticisms come up during the Cell Games Act of the Saga. There's just so much about this Saga that illustrates how Toriyama's writing didn't benefit from experience.
I do like Vegeta, but I do have to agree Toriyama handled him very poorly after the hunt for the Namekian Dragonballs, but that can probably be said of most characters after their intro arc or their first arc after their face-heel turn.
I never got around to reading the manga all the way through, but I preferred what was adapted into Dragonball over what became DBZ greatly, and what I've read of Dr. slump is my favorite of Toriyama's work. The man was much better at comedy than action, and Dragonball lost much of its charm as the tone shifted towards a half-baked attempt at the dramatic. I still enjoyed Z(hell, I even like some of GT), but the series did seem to trade humor and crazy fantasy martial rts for generic pyrotechnics and samey fights between beings who single handedly present biosphere eradication threats.
Toriyama recently said he prefers comedy. Which makes me wonder why he wrote such dark stories like this one.
@@spartanq7781 what makes you think it's dark though? for example this is literally a gag, you're supposed to laugh at it imgur.com/a/05mowVd
Those ethical dilemma drawings are hilarious, i love how vegetas train is also going off a cliff too lol
It checks out. Of course Vegeta should fall too. Since he gets his due competence. As he screwed himself too.
@@spartanq7781 super true. It could be more accurate if he did have another track he could turn to with no one tied to the rails or cliff to represent the option of him not letting cell become perfect though
@@Athesies The reason there isn't a track for that is because he did it without second thought. Whereas Kurrin struggled to make his decision.
@@spartanq7781 ah that makes sense
As a Vegeta fangirl I'm still here as you said nothing I don't accept because this normalization of a dumb psycho hurts him too.
Since no one can criticize Vegeta he never has to confront his past, self reflect or do anything his growth is hamfisted as its sudden BECAUSE THERE IS BARELY ANYTHING TO LOGICALLY BUILD IT OFF OF! Its so needless and stupid and I love him and Happy Holidays!
Happily enough DBS manga Moro arc exists
It would be great if there was a future arc where Vegeta was forced to answer for his crimes, but that’s obviously not going to happen.
The Galactic Patrol should have at least called him out.
This arc should have done it to justify him being there.
I'm late but the recent granola arc is doing it
Moro and Granolah arc.
@@jasonone8726Way way too late for that.
When the Abridged series made more sense. Today TeamFourStar released the made episode in which Future Bulma said she never loved Vegeta and there was just some sexual tension. Better than any romance Toriyama has written.
Even Trunks' thoughts about his father make no sense. In the Cell arc, Vegeta keeps punching his son a lot. To make it worse, Vegeta never grows up in the manga. The Buu arc just makes him even worse when he kills hundreds of people just to provoke Goku, ultimately resulting in Buu's resurrection. What a badass.....
Toei actually tried reforming him in GT and some movies and especially Super but Vegeta never admits his mistakes or anything. It's like the opposite of what Kishimoto did to Sasuke. Sasuke started as a cold kid who started befriendeding his teammates until he became corrupted due to Orochimaru. However, Sasuke never sees murder as an must to do action, to the point he keeps sparing enemies when he is a teenager. When Sasuke becomes corrupted, he actually tells Naruto to kill him because he has taken the wrong path. What happens to him next, Sasuke decides that his entire actions are wrong as he believes his hometow is more important than any of his personal feelings. Although he still needs to see his death as the most important thing, he eventually decides the only way of paying for sins is helping others rather than dying. And what does he do? He starts helping Naruto in the shadows and even trains his son so that in the future Boruto will protect the village.
This is why the moro arc works from what I heard but idk man I just don't know
My take on Picollo vs King Picollo:
He's a re-incarnation of sorts, but he just had programming that consisted of what King Picollo told him. He accepted these instructions because he was young and had no time to mature. However, as he grew older, he had a whole slew of experiences and he finally started to make his own decisions. This results in him rejecting the path of King Picollo. So I see it as more of a father-son relationshp than the same person.
I do too. It's complicated with him or them.
You know, I think more than anything else this shows that Dragon Ball is a product of its time. Nowadays we’re all about holding characters-even villains-accountable for their actions, and meticulously crafting their redemption arcs. So if Dragon Ball had come out later, there’s no way in hell people would’ve let Vegeta’s slapdash integration into the Dragon Team slide. People all over the internet would be lambasting this choice bringing up all the horrible things Vegeta’s done and how the manga refuses to address them, much like you did in this video. But this doesn’t happen because 1) People are more familiar with the anime where Vegeta’s redemption is slightly better handled, 2) a lot of people tend to just go with some of Dragon Ball’s more questionable writing decisions-whether that’s due to nostalgia or its status as a “classic” is up to you-and 3) Vegeta is a character from the 90s, where being cool-looking and badass where the top priority to fans.
To be fair, Defeat Means Friendship and Villain turned Friend is a prevalent trope in shonen, even if the villain has committed heinous crimes. Hell, look at Hachi. He was responsible (though Arlong was the ringleader) for enslaving Nami's village and keeping her under servitude for 8 years in their pirate crew. It was hell. The money she slaved to buy her village back had her own blood on it and so did the pen she drew maps with in her room.
But he is forgiven. The difference is, he does feel remorse but still. Same thing with Franky. He and his crew basically TORTURED Usopp along with stealing the money but again, they let bygones be bygones on that.
The one notable time Zoro stepped in and refused to just let things slide is when Usopp wanted to return after his betrayal. He said that wasn't happening unless the first words out of his mouth were an apology.
Dude, you should try to watch a series called Naruto where the main character literally calls the murderer of his parents and a civilization "the coolest guy ever" and forgives mass murderer because he thinks they don't have bad intentions and after the war they don't mind letting the mass murderer roam free.
Mass murderer Itachi is a hero.
Its not like earthlings had any other choice like vegeta was the strongest after they return from namek. Refusing to let him stay or resisting could have got them killed besides he actually helped them to defeat a common enemy in last fight and saved Gohan's life. I don't know why should they not be relaxed.
Like what happened with the My Hero Academia community with the mangas prior arc. The jerkass hero Endeavour was given a redemption arc, but their was outrage from that arc with people saying that the redemption was being taken to far. And mind you his job is being a superhero and beating up bad guys, with his worst crimes happening at home by being a abusive and neglectful husband and father to his wife and kids. Yet apparently not many people in the dragon ball community 20 years ago didn’t mind a evil mass murder hanging out with the good guys.
Well to be fair with Naruto we are talking about a entire village of hirable assassins so their moral’s aren’t exactly going to match up to other people’s standards.
@@brandonlyon730 I can explain why there was outrage with Endeavour. Domestic violence and child abuse hits far closer to home with some people than your cool-looking space nazi. It's hard to relate to someone blowing up planets as that's so outside the scope of reality, but beating your kid and wife... ehh, now we're creeping into Uncomfortable Implications territory.
Oh I have NEVER understood why Vegeta stayed around. Leaving aside the fact that he becomes boring as fuck after Namek just devolving into "Grr, Kakarot" made into a person, it makes no damn sense, like you said, why anyone would tolerate him being there. And it's NEVER made sense to me why Bulma, of all people, would be so welcoming towards the guy that was responsible for the death of her boyfriend, one of the main reasons she went to Namek to begin with. Honestly Vegeta should have just stayed flat-out dead on Namek. It was a fine conclusion to his story and anything afterwards just deteriorated him more and more as it went on.
You handled the Vegeta thing perfectly, I've seen saying similar things about him for years but people call me a hater because of how cool he is LOL. But it's true, he never got a real redemption like piccolo did, Vegeta just went from a universal terrorist to a stay at home Dad in two Saga for no good reason.
As a Vegeta fan, I absolutely HATED him in this arc. Cool moments for sure. Character development, yes! But overall...he was SUPREMELY irky in the Cell Saga.
Vegeta does get his comeuppance for his past actions in the Buu arc though; Piccolo tells him that because he's caused so much suffering, he won't be able to keep his body in the afterlife. He's going to hell. The fact that he goes through with his sacrifice _anyway_ is a genuinely good character moment for me and why it's well-remembered.
But yeah, if it weren't for the Dragon Balls, Vegeta would've received public execution a thousand times over. But even the Dragon Balls can't bring back the inhabitants of countless other planets he genocided and pirated.
It would have been beautiful if Majin Boo didn't have an even worse case of regeneration. Cell's regeneration doesn't come close to comparing to Boo's.
I disagree majin boo's regeneration doesn't give him a power up
Merry Christmas MF! And thank you very much for the gift!
EDIT: I've always felt the reaction that didn't make sense to Vegeta swapping sides was Bulma. None of the characters other than Goku can even scratch him at the end of the Freeza saga, so Vegeta just hanging around on Earth waiting for Goku made sense (and none of them are particularly friendly). Bulma though... guess it depends whether you think using an evil alien space pirate for sex until your best bud kills him for you is moral or not. Vegeta's sort of like that one edgy guy in your DnD party who plays Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil and you have to think why your characters would bother to tote around a dangerous, stupid psychopath.
And on Cell's regeneration: this should have been better explained, but I believe the reason he can regenerate from such terrible injuries is because he has Saiyan + Namek + Freezian cells. That means he can survive with terrible damage (Freeza) and regenerate from it with Namekian cells, with the power boost from Saiyan Zenkai offsetting the ki difficulty. This is all rather screwy, and should have been explained though (especially since we haven't seen an explicit Zenkai this entire arc and won't until it's necessary to raise the stakes in the *biggest asspull of all time* .)
Tbh, even Bulma's reaction isn't THAT out of character. She constantly tries to jump the bones of her friend's opponents, whether it be Oolong (before she knew he was just a piglet); the bandit Yamcha who beat the shit out of Goku; or Jackie Chun solely based on his NAME.
@@najadamu2724 True, but Vegeta's actions are on a whole different level to Yamcha's mere banditry.
@@najadamu2724 Don't forget Zarbon. Or Blue. Bulma has terrible taste in men.
Yeah it was just sex not a relationship. Still fucked up on her part hut at least the story didn't try to act like they were in love at that point.
@@imarealone_0076 Well, it's not just sex in the anime (and I am not sure anymore if this is how it happened in the Manga). She sees his vulnerable side and nurses him back to health with he almost kills himself training at her place, when he blows up the ship training. Maybe not love yet, but it's definitely her having feelings for him, and him softening a bit (a very tiny bit, but it's the start of things to come).
I forget if this is still cannon or if it's legends but Darth Vader force ghost does show him self to Leia asking for forgiveness to which her reaction was go fuck yourself you were never my father and you will always be a monster which I think was a very fair reaction but apparently she eventually forgives him some time after this.
That works though since its Vader dealing with his actions. Vegeta never has that moment. If after he went majin or did this he was outcasted from the group or even flat out told to leave Earth by goku and the rest it would be better than them just going "oh well that's our Vegeta"
Probably would of made more sense to have Vegeta die on Namek for the end of his "arc" but he was a popular character so guess he had to come back, I still like Vegeta btw im just saying it was rather odd people just accepted him instantly as well.
What really bugs me about all this is the predictability of it. Once Cell deposited his goal we all knew it would happen. Vegeta suggesting Cell become complete and him reaching beyond Super Sayain tells you he will. He and Trunks are the first in the room and spirt of time. When they leave Vegeta does exactly was expected of him. How did the others not see this coming? Vegeta flat out tells Goku that when this is done he will come after him again. That should have sentvoff the warning bells. That Goku should have left Vegeta in the dark. Trunks would have did the right thing. There is also the fact that he in this very arc declares himself as pure evil. They know his genocidal history. He was tangentially responsible for most of the dragon teams death. Tenshinhan being the only one to get in his face about it is so stupid. Everyone should he has not proven himself any better. Than from when they first meet him. Blooma sleeping with him after that and after he threatened her life twice is stupid. Vegeta's inclusion post the Freeza arc and his relationship with Blooma is stupid. It is honestly one of the worse writting I have ever seen. This moment here should have been expected. It also makes his beefed up Super Sayian form end up another tenis bout. The fact that anyone should even care if he dies is also illogical to me. You can't declare someone as being redeemed when they continue to do stupid selfish evil actions. At this point anyway.
I heard that Vegeta was originally suppose to die in the Saiyan arc and Goku would become the last true pure blood Saiyan. But I guess Vegeta was really popular among the community by the end of the arc despite him being a one dimensional villain at the time, and with that popularity he was allowed to live and later become a main character. It would explain his forced inclusion after the action or why Goku and Krillins willingness to allow him to live seem really stupid.
simply put vegeta was one dimension in the saiyan arc but he also was badass much like hiei from yuyu hakusho
That doesn't matter, Toriyama still could've written his inclusion in the group better than what we got.
Man, I've thought about how Dragon Ball characters are mostly redeemed villains for the longest time, so that part of the video was really interesting for me to watch. A trend I've noticed is how Toriyama tends to make the next character redemption take longer than the last. Starting with the first arc which had a few villains become good, to the 22nd Budokai which was mostly dedicated to only Tein's turnabout, to Piccolo's story which doesn't get resolved at the end of the arc he's introduced, but is carried over into the Sayain arc (you could argue how good of an idea it was to just let him go at the end of the 23rd Budokai, but at least he's never PROVEN to kill anyone, only threaten), to finally Vegeta, who takes his sweet ass time becoming good. He takes so long even, that he even broke the trend of villains taking longer to redeem than the last, so while the Androids and Buu become good guys, they become that way all within their own arc (and even then they're more pacified rather than redeemed).
Although, with all this talk, I'm surprised you didn't mention the most unbelievable heel-turn: the Ox-King, who HAS canonically killed people and only gets a slap on the wrist by Master Roshi. Next time you him all dressed up as a jolly old grandpa, just remember: that man's killed people.
I loved your comparison to Darth Vader! Thinking about it from this standpoint, I think Vegeta's story would have ended much better in the Frieza arc as he was redeemed through his death at the hands of Frieza, his terrorizer. It made for such a beautifully tragic moment for Vegeta in that we (and Goku too) could finally accept him through his death, but only in his DEATH! Bringing him back to life for this just ruins all of that.
Another Vegeta fan and, yeah, you're right. Vegeta's character, in terms of writing, after Freeza feels *lazy* even in the Buu arc. And it's all due to lack of exploration of the what ifs his type of character brings. Things just happen to or with Vegeta because the writer needs x and x and Vegeta is the newbie. The worst part about it all is that he doesn't feel OOC so it's easy to glance over it (at least until Super took pleasure in highlighting it) as by this time Bulma-tachi are truly 100% side characters. Out of frame, out of mind.
So, while he'll get cool moments it tends feels undercut by the dumbest of writing that weakens them once you actually think on them. Not to mention, his cunning and tactics are simply never used again. He becomes the dude that put all his points into ki and strength, and uncreatively too. He's effectively becomes the tenderizer for the villains for Goku/Gohan to then finish off.
Really a shame as his character could have been the type that is redeemable, but not in the goody-two shoes way like everyone else. It could have been a good way to contrast humans to saiyans.
That's one of the most hilarious titles I've seen in a while.
Vegeta is a complete moron in this part and the story makes everything to prove to us that he made a terrible mistake and the title just illustrate this perfectly with the right amount of sarcasm and irony.
And even after watching the entire episode of DBD I still stand to my point. While I agree it's mostly consistent and fairly in character it doesn't make it any less idiotic.
The story also doesn't help since it *also* paints him as a character that is *resourceful* and *intelligent enough when it comes to combat* . To me he should *at least* try to blast Cell while he is trying to transform and it would be a lot more like him.
If anyone a moron it's the guy making the video and goku
@@keaunceeclifton8044 u upset about something Junior??
[Vitz!] Vegeta wouldn't blast Cell since that would mean he's afraid to fight him when he's not. He was afraid of Frieza and the Frieza Force since he was weaker than them his whole life. Now that he's a Super Saiyan Grade 2 he feels at top of the world and doesn't feel like anything could challenge him.
@@yourmom9931 Makes sense.
You're destroying my childhood by making me critically think about why this saga is actually bad... You're not wrong about anything though. Amazing analysis as always. When talking about Yu Yu Hakusho, Super Eyepatch Wold said it was impossible to really throw away his nostalgia bias. Its he same for me with DBZ. But it seems like you have that ability.
1:05 I realized something was off about the Dragon Ball Christmas picture but it took me a second to figure it out … Toriyama included everyone from the older arcs of the manga, even Oolong and Puar … but he completely forgot to include Chaotzu. Maybe you were right when you said Toriyama just hates the little guy.
Also I love how the second drawing has a cliff because of course that stupid sexy prince would drive right into it laughing maniacally all the way down.
I never realized that oh my gosh that is so clever XD
Definitely felt the Vegeta and Bulma relationship was forced
I didn't get the sasusaku fans but vegiblu shippers must be even worse if that series started today...it makes even less sense since we don't get a few dramatic thank you for everything or head poke scenes from them together ...we get one smile..thats it...I just laugh at certain ships...renji and rukia...nami and eventually sanji I feel is funny since hes always looking at robin that way too...and of course keiko and yusuke....smdh..
About your whole case about Vegeta...well, you are right, he never showed any remorse for all the genocides he commited, and Piccolo was very clear when he told him "you are a monster, you are going straight to hell"...however, the Dragon Balls dont consider him "evil" by the end of the Boo arc, so...he's ok?
The most logical comparision is with Piccolo, and I think there are two major differences; Piccolo never did anything even close as evil as the shit Vegeta pulls off even on the Boo arc, and there's is the biggest one, we never see him become "good"...we see Piccolo developing a bond with Gohan, a bond that then extends to Goku, then to the rest of the Dragon Team, and by that time he is 100% good, to the point that is the reason why Kami accepts to become one with him again, with him literally stating "you've changed, there is no evil in you anymore".
However, we never see Vegeta going through that, it is heavily suggested he developed a bond with Trunks in the year they spent together in the Time Chamber, but we never see that.
It is implied he developed an even closer bond with "his" Trunks and Bulma in the seven years after the Cell arc, but again, we never see that.
For all we know, Vegeta never changed, we have to accept he is "good" because the Dragon Balls said so, which is pretty lazy.
I feel Snape is the same way as Vegeta and Darth Vader. While not a mass murderer, for 6 novels all he did was torture Harry and his friends because of a school boy grudge he wouldn't let go. But in book seven we're just supposed to forgive all that because he had a hard on for Harry's mom. Yeah fuck that.
That's not the same at all. As you said, Snape didn't kill anyone. He was just being a jerk. He wasn't quickly accepted and forgiven for murdering people.
Wooh, really tore into Vegeta this time around. Not that he doesn't totally deserve it. I'll admit, Vegeta integrating into the group did kinda pass me by somewhat until now, but having considered it, he really *didn't* have any reason to continue acting communal with these people after Frieza was defeated. His team-up with Gohan and Kuririn was purely necessity, so it does strike me as odd that he'd just stick around to get his Badman shirt long enough for Mecha Frieza to pop in with Cold and get Trunks'd.
What makes this even stupider is Vegeta helps everyone. Come up with a plan to bring Goku back to life. At the end of the Freeza arc. When they thought he was dead. It took several months before they learned he was alive. So what the hell was he doing? He could have just killed them all. Or subjugate them. He also knows about the dragon balls. From then on out he suddenly doesn't care about having immortality anymore. It would have made far more sense if Vegeta became the biggest threat at that point. Then Goku keeps his word to stop him if he attacks them again. Toriyama wanted to keep Vegeta around despite it not making any sense. It makes even less sense in Trunk's timeline. In that timeline they aren't warned about the artificial humans. So he has no reason to side with them again. He had three years to become Super Sayian and challenge Goku. He instead doesn't as an excuse for well Trunks to exist. The artificial humans really shoukd have happened after all of this. That way Dr. Gero would damn well know about Super Sayian. Which would better explain why they're so strong. This arc could have happened without forcing time travel. The story as is barley even mentions it. This arc makes no damn sense.
what are the z-fighters gonna do?
"Hey screw you Vegeta, you killed our friends, we dont want you here!"
Vegeta: Well what are you gonna do about it?
Z-Fighters: Um well
@@alfa01spotivo They're gonna Z-fight!
@@alfa01spotivo mafuba
Cell's regeneration is overpowered, and something like Father from Fullmetal Alchemist shows how it could have been done better, but it really could have worked as a one-off. The issue is that between Frieza shrugging off every attack, the way the Ginuu Squad all got hit out in one go for the most part, and Buu, it is just a major example of a bad trend.
Merry Christmas all! :)
Is there anyone in the entire DB franchise who ever owned up to making mistakes that had grave consequences and tried to be better for it? Vejita doesn't seem to care much about the genocide he pulled in the past and Goku never seemed to see his fighting obsession as a problem. I would consider Gohan to be one of the few. He felt responsible for Piccolo's death and went to Namek for it. RoF showed him the consequences of forsaking training and so he resumed it. He also got over his power-drunk arrogance that cost him in Cell and Buu.
I always found Vegeta's role in the original timeline (the one where Trunks is from) really bizarre. At least in the timeline we know, they had the Artificial Humans to keep Vegeta alive for and Goku and Piccolo (the only 2 strong enough to fight him) knew they had to keep him alive for Trunks. What was Vegeta's purpose in staying on Earth during the Trunks timeline? Why didn't Goku just fight and murder him as soon as he finished off Cold and Freeza and why was he even accepted by the Earthlings then? And who was to say Vegeta wouldn't become the next big threat to the world once Goku died and what indeed stopped Vegeta from doing exactly that?
I have been thinking that lately too. It is another reason Trunk's timeline makes no goddamn sense.
How I see it. Goku spared him in the Trunks timeline for the same reason he spared him after the Saiyan Arc (and tried to/succeeded in sparing Frieza). Because Goku just read American Comics and discovered the no kill rule. For all of the bitching that "GOKU IS NOT SUPERMAN" The "Z-Era" for lack of a better term really tried to make him that
The train drawing of Vegeta had me cracking up all day especially his little top hat. Best Freeza Day ever! xD
Anyway I'm also a Vegeta fan but how the rest treat him and Bulma's recklessness is needlessly bad writing as he could've served the same purpose of tenuous ally without rolling out the red carpet, handing him a bitch, a house and money. Its just weird.
Finally, someone who can say Kuririn correctly without it sounding weird.
I've just come to realisation that it was probably this arc that made me indifferent to Vegeta as a character overall. Thanks for constantly putting Dragonball into a new perspective for me.
12:01 - 12:17
Actually, I'm 99% certain that this is precisely what the cartoon did with a few filler scenes, showing him waiting not-so-patiently for Goku to be wished back to earth so he can question Goku on the process of becoming a super saiyan, and when he finds out that Goku is refusing to return, he hijacks a capsule corp spaceship and travels the galaxy in search of Goku. He returns to Earth just in time for Frieza's arrival there. The Garlic Jr. Saga even shows him in a few cutaway scenes interrogating stragglers of the Freiza Army about Goku's whereabouts.
this is the reason to watch the anime not the manga
Gotta say I'm looking forward to you roasting Vegeta in the Buu arc. I hope when you discuss that you'll go over how Vegeta was responsible for every story arc since his debut.
Also on your point of TFS, it makes a lot of sense that their version of Goku seems to naively accept Veggie as a "best bud", while the other members of the cast mainly seem to distrust the guy. Even Blooma seems uncomfortable talking about Vegeta to her own son, while the others pretty much admit he's only on their side as a temporary alliance. The help from the anime footage really sells it as well; he's not on their "team", he's just helping them... for the time.
Incredibly cathartic and well thought out, kudos!
Love the thumbnail and yeah it is utterly grating that he gets worked in so casually without a thought or care paid to what makes sense or the people he's butchered and then 99% of his character development is off-screen so it never feels like he earns it when he does, eventually, express some modicum of guilt for all he's done.
@@vazak11 Thank you. So many people act like Vegeta has so much development. He does but as you said we don't see it. Toriyama just snaps his fingers to turn Vegeta into what he wants.
Imagine Freeza getting redeemed in Dragon Ball. That would be rather dumb.
I disliked how Cell didn't come up with the idea to take advantage of Vegeta's stupidity but rather needed to be told about it.
Like you mentioned I also disliked how Bulma and Vegeta became a lovers just because. I can buy Goku accepting him even if he doesn't like him, because over the course of the series he did see some of the worst villains to convert into good guys. The only character I don't buy him to accept that easy would be Frieza. Even if Goku spared his life, he made clear that he would punish him in case he appears again before him.
Regarding Buu Saga Vegeta, even with the terrible direction the "M on the Forehead" form send him, to me he still is 1 of 3 characters that got actual good development in that arc (which Super ruined by a bunch of retcons such as the potara and still having an obsession to surpass Goku). The other 2 are Mr Satan and fat Majin Buu.
If anyone wants to know why I mentioned the potara retcon, here is something that explains why I still wonder why people still like Vegito:
pastebin.com/4VDiFbLe
TBF, Dragon Ball has actively involved Showy Invincible Hero from the start, and the Jawbreaker scene is comedy gold. Also, I don't think the Potara timer retcon breaks characterization, because Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have known about that added detail--as far as Vegeta still could have figured at the time of the first Potara fusion, it would have been permanent.
Just having to say something.
I never saw how Super ruined Vegeta's end of Buu arc admission that "Goku was better than him". In an early Super episode, Vegeta is training and says something akin to "yes Goku will always be better than me, but just because he is better, does not mean that I will stop training and using him as motivation to be stronger and to rival his skills." Even GT has a moment where Vegeta decides he won't stop training against Goku and trying to surpass him. However, I could be remembering this wrong so If I am wrong than I am sorry.
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think Trunks needs to exist.
I don’t dislike him as a character but given how little he actually contributes to the Cell plot after his first warning to the heroes, I think he is a wasted character who doesn’t really need to exist.
It’s fascinating to me how Toriyama threw everybody else’s sanity out the window just to accommodate Vegeta into the group so that he could sire a character who does very little, has no on screen character development, has no interesting interactions with the other characters and who permanently leaves the cast to go back to his own timeline after this story ends.
That also ties into how the time travel element is wasted and pointless.
But his sword is cool tho...which he abandons...despite it being the one thing that made him unique.
Alright go ahead and toss the boy.
I will go one step further.
Trunks was created just to suffer!
If you think about it, nothing good has happened to him even after Cell's destruction.
He has to return to Earth in his own bleak timeline and after that, Super came.
And we all know how Super treated the boy.
At this point we would do the boy a mercy killing to him.
SSBM Tobi I think Toriyama designed Trunks then wondered how he could justify making the boy a super Saiyan.
Then he decided to make Vegeta the father and scrambled to stick him in the group even if it doesn’t make a lot of sense in order to justify Trunk’s existence and being a super saiyan.
There’s almost no character development for Vegeta until the last possible minute to the point where his “redemption” of feeling love for Trunks after Cell kills him feels like an afterthought. Given how tacked on Vegeta’s “redemption” is, I highly doubt Toriyama created Trunks to help facilitate that development.
I was a massive Vegeta fan as a teenager. Not so much nowadays but still get hyped whenever he achieved new forms in Dragon Ball Super.
Dragon Ball Dissections have become some of my favourite videos in UA-cam. Thanks for another great episode!
You my friend have summed up Vegeta's Draco in leather pants , quite nicely
3:23 remember when Kylo Ren x Rey shippers were mad at Kylo's death at the end of TRoS, because they wanted them to be a couple even though Kylo Ren killed his own father, attempted to kill his own mother, and also blew up an entire system of planets thus ending billions of lives all because he had daddy issues? Yeah, that was a thing.
There was a small minority of Kylo and Rey shippers. Nearly everybody thought them hooking up was ridiculous.
@@jasonone8726honestly reylo is such a big ship, that minority feels like a quarter of people who liked the Rey continuity, and thats still some numbers cause its star wars
I like Vegeta's arc and all that, and it makes sense for his character. But the fact he's ever really forgiven for this is just, I dunno. It doesn't sit right with me. It's selfish and shortsighted and makes the entire rest of the arc happen singlehandedly. I hate it
I honestly laughed out loud over the comparisons of Vegeta and Chiaotsu.
What Toriyama ought to have done was to have Dende, back when Namek was about to explode, wish back to life everyone who was killed by Frieza EXCEPT for Vegeta. Earlier Dende wanted to let Vegeta die from a mortal wound instead of healing him and only healed him because he had to, so why did he save Vegeta for a second time when it was not necessary to do so?
Not being specific enough with the wish
He probably didn’t think it through very much considering he had to quickly make a wish before namek could explode. Also by the time Vegeta was killed, Dende was dead himself and would have no idea Frieza killed him.
I agree vegeta never really earned to become a Zfighter
There is Dragon Ball before Vegeta, and then there is Dragon Ball after Vegeta.
You keep reminding me of why I hate Vegeta so much dude thank you
Oh I can't wait for your rant on Vegeta in the early Boo arc. It is somehow worse than this instance. Thing is he doesn't share any blame that time. It was all his fault. For the sake of surpassing and defeating Goku. Who was dead and whom hardly ever interacted with one an other. Due to Goku being gone 80% of the time. Suddenly there it is important again. Then he later has the gal to be angry at Goku. Instead of the other way around. He then whines for the umpteenth time that Goku us stronger than him. That Goku held back.. Goku should have said f off. This mess is your fault. Now your family is gone because of it. It doesn't help matters that Goku lets his sons die later on. The Cell and Boo arcs are riddled with dumb character decions. The one person who wasn't stupid was Mr. Satan. He never made the situation worse. He was far more useful than everyone except maybe Goku.
Ok a few things
1Vegeta does share the blame, the fight with kid buu, before Goku, or Mr.S asked to give Goku energy, Vegeta was the first to ask, and guess what no one listened to him, because of what he did, so no Vegeta
2 Goku had the gal to ask him to fuse, even though 1) Vegeta doesn't like Goku, 2) Goku held back in a life or death (at least that's what was intended to be), and 3 (I don't know if I'm remembering this right) but Vegeta was already mad about coming back to life
I'm not saying Vegeta is right, I just can see why he's pissed
It's like someone asking a favor, of someone whose request they didn't take, regardless of whether they feel that person deserved it or not
Now because I agree with you other point about Vegeta, I'm gonna bring up Goku because you make it seem like Goku is blameless in this, he's not because he refused to use SS3 on Vegeta and ended it quickly
WHY?
Because Vegeta is too much a threat at this point, and before you bring up the fact it would have shortened his life, he used it on Buu who is way above Majin Vegeta, Goku even said he could have beaten Buy with ss3, meaning he could have ended quickly, b4 Majin Buu got the enough energy to resurrect
@@treythegamerwolf551 They don't comply because of that. They don't know it was him. They refuse to listen to Goku the one who saved them so many times.
@@spartanq7781 yes most didn't listen to Goku, but many did, especially the Z fighters, and those close to Goku, you know the same ones that didn't answer when Vegeta asked, literally no one answered when Vegeta asked
@@treythegamerwolf551 They do give Goku energy when he asks. The ones who don't have no idea who he even is. They know Goku though so then they give him the energy. I know that scene well. I know I'm right.
it doesn't really debunk me, infact you kinda agreed with me
7:53 But don't you know? In the Dragon Ball universe, they can instantly evacuate people even when they are standing right in front of a super villain when he does a similar destruction attack. It's also a world where buildings are conveniently empty on Sunday, people instantly bail out of exploding helicopters with invisible parachutes, pilots can instantly eject when their planes are exploding, and navy ships can be instantly abandoned as they blow up. I love Chris Psaros' reactions to those scenes. Did they think kids were that stupid or were they trying to appease censors who think kids are that stupid? Even without seeing the uncut version, I knew there was something wrong with that "instant evacuation" and characters be blown up being "sent to another dimension." I think they just found a flimsy way of taking advantage of the fact that so many characters die by being engulfed in energy blasts and disappearing.
For characters who change yet still have to face the consequences of their previous actions, look at the Batman Beyond episode "Meltdown," in particular, the scene where a man attempts to assassinate Victor Fries because Mr. Freeze killed his family.
Agreed on everything about Vegeta. I hate it when entertainment does the whole redeemed villain thing in that kind of way. It's also what I hate about the kind of stories that are supposedly "dark and realistic" but just end up as us being supposed to root for murderers
thanks for the honest vegeta review. i remember when i liked vegeta as a kid. when they aired all of dbz from the beginning again, i was like this is the guy i liked. i instantly had a strong dislike towards the character and his popularity.
then what they did with trunks in super. trunks might as well have not been born.
piccolo was right. aint no redeeming what vegeta has done... yet vegeta is the fan favorite... seems sus.
If Vegeta's use in this story seems sloppy, that is because he initially was not supposed to be there. Toriyama tried to keep Vegeta with the heroes because the fans asked, begged, pleaded, for Vegeta to be kept around. In one of the anniversary mangas, Vegeta mocks the Toribot for being too well liked to get rid of and Toribot admits he never expected anyone with Vegeta's haircut to become popular.
If I had my way, Vegeta would fall have been sidelined after the Buu arc and the Fat Majin Buu would have become Goku's new rival in GT and Super.
That would explain so much but in that case his death by Freeza would have been the perfect end. His death in the next arc would have also been a good point to end his story for good.
Great video! Probably one of the best DBD episodes overall.
I think a fairly easy remedy for the whole Vegeta thing could be Trunks. Trunks is a pragmatist, but he also seeks connection with his father. It's irrational, but it's a human desire that's understandable. Have Kuririn suggest letting him die, but Trunks quietly protest saying he doesn't want to that. Perhaps a compromise they make is Kuririn rescues Vegeta but refuses to fully heal him. And when Goku returns he threatens to kill him if he does anything.
Don't worry you still got one Vegeta fan Z though GT here to stay. Because I agree with you on this.
A question about DB that I think about now and then is: Will Vegeta be sent to hell once he dies once and for all?
I mean, yeah, he cleaned up his act later in his life and became one of Earth's protectors, but he's still a genocidal maniac. He wiped out entire planets mercilessly, and I suppose Enma Daioh hasn't forgot abut that.
Depends on how long he lives
We may not know with certainty if piccolo actually killed anyone in that explosion. But I'm sure at the time he wouldn't have cared if he did.
I never liked Cell knocking out Krillin, because it wasn't a good way to showcase his new power. Krillin was already no match for him in his first form, plus, we had already seen Krillin knocked down from just one hit, a number of times, so this wasn't anything new. We really didn't need him to explain that Vegeta was gonna lose. As I mentioned, Cell was already out of his league before he transformed.
Yeah, I know we all think Vegeta's kinda cool sometimes, but he was really an ass for SO long. He didn't actually become a remotely decent person until damn near the end of the Buu Saga. And as much as Dragon Ball Super can be a freakin' mess, pretty much the only thing it did right was mature and (somewhat) smooth him out as a character.
I love Vegeta post-development but you're absolutely right. The way everyone just tolerates him doing whatever the fuck he wants is totally absurd.
8:25 this whole segment solidifies my viewpoints on Vegeta. When they say 'Hes just had a hard life' and such, I look at fans like they're crazy.
While Vegeta is my favorite character. I agree 100%. There should have been at least some more negativity about Vegeta coming from Goku and Friends. Also Majin Vegeta makes sense because of this. He NEVER CHANGED. The reason I'm guessing they left Vegeta around post buu saga simply because there was like 3 people stronger than him and he kinda had a family now. Especially since (atleast according to my memory) Bulma states she just thought Vegeta was being controlled and it wasn't his own will. I would Believe that Goku wouldn't tell Bulma the truth. That he did it out of his own will to make himself like he used to be. Though I will be honest his "Final Atonement" attack does redeem him somewhat...if only he killed buu.
I'm currently writing a FanFiction of DBZ that's over 400,000 words and I'm so glad someone finally understands. Like, Vegeta is interesting and I like him more than a fair amount of the cast but he's just allowed to be so ridiculously evil and irredeemable for no reason. The cast just don't care. It's so strange. Vegeta's arc in the Buu Saga is godlike but it comes at the cost of practically every single other cast members agency to occur. It's why I didn't put him in the main cast, it just doesn't make sense to keep him around.
What's the name of it
@@Eminster Yo! Son Goku and friends!
@@kylefields3951 isn't that the name of the 2008 special?
@@Eminster Almost. Not quite. It was the inspiration for the name though. Yo! Son Goku and his friends return! Is the full title.
@@kylefields3951 what chapter does the cell arc starts?
Merry Christmas Lance! Keep up the good work! This series is literally my favorite youtube series
DBZA also excellently portrays how Bulma became interested in Vegeta, first inviting him to live with her solely to spite Yamcha after their breakup, and then sharing a night of impulsive passion after getting feisty in an argument. And I love her explanation to Trunks in the future, that she identified with his power, stubbornness, and desperation for recognition. I actually find it weirdly believable that she was attracted to him for being Yamcha's opposite on almost every level. After years of being with a poor dolt who probably never once stood up to her, it was probably really hard to get the proud prince who doesn't take a single ounce of shit from anybody out of her head after they boned. He was probably a breath of fresh air, like she realised that she actually prefers a guy who doesn't necessarily listen to her.
Bulma is a weird chick; I dunno.
She's a spoiled brat who likes power. Pretty simple actually.
Once again, TFS demonstrates an understanding of her character that doesn't exist in the source material, when she describes Vegeta to Trunks after the latter's return to future time: "A short, stubborn, powerful person, desperate for recognition - as a female scientist in her early thirties, I... guess I identified with that."
Was very happy to spend this third of an hour with this
Merry Christmas to all that celebrate
Yup, Vegeta is an awesome character. His relationships could work better with the others but they should have happened a little more (maybe a lot) organically, especially showing the turn for Bulma. Not only that about face after Vegeta says he murdered the whole village of Namekians, when they're back on earth, but on Namek she was scared to death of him. So, where'd that rational fear go? In reality, as far as redemption, this would be like trying to reform ten Hitlers in one, or more. Especially in the anime, where he's shown wiping out PLANETS, like whole ecosystems of sentient life, without a flicker of care. By this point he's been neutered by Goku and even his son for so long, he's acting out like a spoiled child whose had all restrictions removed. He is hell on earth, and the only reason Krillin has to not kill him, or the others do, is that they don't want to hurt Bulma and Trunks. But yeah he would definitely be too dangerous. Then again, once Goku and Gohan reemerge from the Time Chamber, Vegeta is back to being hardly a threat again. Goku, above the others, really has figured out how to get Vegeta's goat, press his buttons. I like that far better than Abridged's version of him being a complete naive idiot. You can see in the actual story, Goku's figured Vegeta out and it's a conscious thing. It's awesome, really.
the answer to the bulma question is that she wanted to bang vegeta its as simple as that
That Vegeta Trolley Problem art is my new favorite thing and exemplifies his Cell Saga character to a T. Vegeta is my favorite character in the whole of Dragonball, but he's definitely an asshole through most of it. If the other characters had brains, they'd have cast him out...though he was stronger than everyone else before Goku showed back up, so what could they really do?
I need that Trolley Art as a shirt design.