Of COURSE your files aren't safe. It's exactly the same with those printed circuit board sites. I personally know someone who worked for moths to create a product, doing all the engineering and testing in his basement. He spend somewhere around $50k developing, prototyping and testing, redesigning etc before he got it to where he was ready to make a few of the final revision for presentation to investors. Stupidly he sent his files in to Chinese pcb manufacture and before he could get his first until built and setup for the investors his EXACT design was found online for half of what his bare minimum would have been sold for. They stole his design and all his work and ruined him and there was nothing he could do about it. The moral he learned is that the moment you're files leave your possession assume they are no longer your files.
@@qwerty13380 They all do that. There isn't any based in china that doesn't steal. I have known people have issues with all of them. The only way to be safe is to have an airtight contract with a specific company and patents. Because then if your idea is stolen and they are the only ones who had the files, it isn't hard to sue them in court and send a cease and desist to the company producing it. Just make sure your contract is within the bounds of the law within the country the PCB manufacturer is based in. Because if its a Chinese company, you will be in Chinese court. So I recomend doing your prototypes with a company in your country so you don't have to deal with that headache and if its new and revolutionary, patent it.
The whole issue a lot if people have with the printer is not that bamboo might use it. Its that the chinese government has unmitigated access to anyones designs.
Its important to recogize the shelf life of your products. If you've made something that is simple to copy, you will get copied. Patents and trademarks are expensive and realistically of limited value to prevent this. The most effective way to extend the shelf life of a product and prevent copies is to make something more complex that is either hard or expensive to copy. This comes at a cost of longer development times and increased cost from a product failure. It's all a tradeoff but important to remember when developing new products.
Good points all around. I talk about the Bambu cloud stuff a lot because I have worked in industries where you’d get in big trouble for using a cloud service like what Bambu Lab offers. Best thing to do is to keep as much private as possible IMO. Also, I’m not worried about the GCode as much as them having a whole profile on what you print, how often, what materials you print with. They are extracting value out of you, the customer, and you’re paying them for the pleasure. At least Google and UA-cam offer you services for free in exchange for being creepy! But you have a good point. You’re much more likely to have your idea stolen from an Amazon listing, where everyone can see how much you’re selling it for and the number of customers engaging with the product. But you also get a lot of sales through Amazon.
And you should keep bringing up the Bambu cloud stuff. For more difficult to design products with multiple parts or products that are highly innovative, security is still a very real issue.
@@xsvforce3335 I'm pretty sure nobody working on proprietary or secure products will be using the Bambu printers... But then again, there's always that one person... Also, Markforged and other commercial providers have cloud functionality, but they are all US-based, so no ITAR concerns, and probably at least a couple cyber security measures in place.
Great points! I totally agree! I would like to share a quick personal story about how I repurposed someone else's concept to meet our need, but I did use their tools. I have been a Manufacturing Designer & CNC programmer for nearly 2 decades, FYI. Going back over a decade, there was/is a popular cabinet making software that offered a ridiculously expensive add-on package just to make plywood, dovetailed drawer boxes. It worked great, but the company I was working for wanted to stick with hardwood drawer boxes. I bought the tools needed, watched how it was ran, measured, reverse-engineered, and modified my own reusable custom program that allowed me to use their tools but account for varying sizes, hardwood, and prevent the tear out that comes with it. I got a higher end product for our customers and luckily managed to get it right on the 1st try; well, I had to open up a little to account for glue and wood swelling during assembly. Anyways, you are right. Make your product, sell it, and move on to the next. Great vids BTW. Loved your recent shop tour vid. ;)
As a retired hobbyist that enjoys 3D printing I appreciate your insight. I would prefer a direct hookup to my Bambu printers, not just for security but control. A number of times their cloud has been down, and I submitted jobs, that simply seemed to disappear. The LAN mode has limits and I'm waiting for someone to devise a solution around their cloud.
Joe, your comments about holding and coddling for fear of being copied and not moving forward are so spot on. That mindset absolutely retards growth and stifles innovation. If you are first to market with a superior product, just step on the gas and keep innovating. There's a lot of great content in this video, but that one point resonated so loudly with me it earned a sub. Thanks for posting.
You aren't getting the ads because you talked about it in front of your phone/smart speaker ... you're getting the ads because someone in the conversation, or someone known to someone in the conversation, looked up the (similar) product or posted about the (similar) product. They don't need to listen to your conversations to be creepy... the marketing data brokers have all of that information just based on your habits and the habits of the people you interact with, and it's enough to do just what you said. I actually think that's creepier :) Other than that, you bring up some very valid points. I hope you share your experiences about any patent type processes you go through! Thanks for sharing what you have so far.
The big tech companies 100% listen to you 24/7. It's in the TOS of most phones and services. I suggest you research some of the leaks that whistle-blowers gave their freedom for. Also, they dont just listen they watch too. Your camera collects data about you and your surroundings all day long.
Oh you have so given me confidence in maker business intelligence, so well done, totally amazing, maturity for your age & potential business years , so incredibly well done & perceptive. Boothy
AFAIK those printers can work just on your LAN and they have a button to disable their web access. To your point: I have a Einstar scanner which theoretically allows me to copy any physical object. Lots of people have those, so yeah, STL files aren't everything.
FWIW, I just went through the setup on my K1 and P1P to compare. P1P requires you to use the app to register your printer to connect it to WiFi. Which means no LAN mode without registering, and no firmware updates without connecting to the internet beforehand. Also closed source means you can't really check things easily.
Hi Joe, Sorry for not reaching out to you sooner and hope you are well. Love the P1P videos. What are thoughts about the A1? On your P1Ps have you printed ASA, ABS and Carbon Fiber? Very curious about your experiences.
Finally someone addresses the overall arching with regards to 3D printing. So many people want to complain about a 3D printer storing files but yet they voluntarily display their entire life on social media which is way more useful than what you are 3d printing.
I really appreciate you candidly sharing your experience and advice. It's wonderfully inspiring and I hope you continue to be successful, both on UA-cam and in your business.
Very well said. When I was a designer in college people were often times too precious with their ideas and didn't want to share or sell things they had designed, and the professors always had the exact same advice you gave. Just do it. And if and when someone copies you, do it better or improve your design. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :)
Excellent points on the cloud, people freak out way too much (and also not enough). Great points on idea theft and, yes, many of us are tired of the cheap knock offs and happily pay more for a quality item.
Bro I love your videos... how you always manage to capture and share the struggles and wins of this journey we all are on is so real, and resonates with so many of us. I wish you massive success, may continue to grow beyond your wildest dreams. You inspire many. Thank you
Great points. I think you are absolutely correct in the premise of folks unwillingness to strive for a better product instead of shooting for a quick turn of product. Keep making great content.
Great video! I particularly appreciated the concept that your STL file isn't needed to copy your product. I created a niche market in 2006 and as soon as the products sold in volume and I was making a decent living, a few companies copied my products. I didn't expect to keep the entire market to myself, but I thought my products would encourage competition and others would make their own products, but no... they directly ripped off my products by making exact copies. They have greater sales because I'm an engineer and they're better at marketing. It's frustrating. I should either get better at marketing, or hire a marketing person to do that so I can focus on engineering. I don't enjoy marketing and I don't want to manage employees, so I'm instead focusing on developing new products that they'll rip off in a few months. 😕 My objection to cloud based manufacturing (or any cloud services) is mostly philosophical. I just don't like the idea of uploading anything to the cloud. I have no Apple devices. I avoid using Google's cloud for anything. I bought a Google Pixel 6 phone and immediately installed the private and secure Graphene OS to replace Google's Android spyware. I send encrypted email to anyone who uses encrypted email. Philosophically, I don't like sharing any information. My practical concern is reliability. Why should I send my files to a server in China? What does that add to the process? I don't want to rely on someone's server to 3D print my parts. There is no reason the entire process shouldn't be local. I use FreeCAD to design the parts, in part because I don't want some CAD manufacturer getting their business in the middle of my design process. I should be able to design the part on my computer and print it on my 3D printer without needing to send anything over the internet. Simpler is better. One thing I'd have liked to have seen in this video was a demonstration of copying the files to an SD card and inserting it into the printer. This sounds silly, but the devil is in the details. With my Sovol SV01 3D printer, I'm forced to use a tiny microSD card (much fumbling with my big fingers), which I must plug into a microSD to USB adapter, and the card slot in the SV01 is in a VERY inconvenient location. It's a huge PIA. If it used a USB port on the front of the printer, it'd be almost as easy as printing across a network.
the SD slot on the X1 is on the side of the LCD screen. good spot but they way the trimmed it in plastic is a pain to pop it in and out. I have a friend that sells a pretty niche product and this year ran into a similar situation where a Chinese company ripped the product off and to add insult to injury they used his pictures in the amazon listing. he has tried for months to have amazon take it down but they dont care.
@@MrBertstare - I have seven FDM 3D printers and two MSLA printers and the Sovol SV01 has been my go to printer for the over two years. Simple and cheap as the SV01 is, it's way better than my earlier printers. I'll probably upgrade to a K1 Max in a couple of months if Creality fixes some startup issues. The only thing I don't like about the SV01 is the micro SD card. It's a pain to handle that little card and use a USB adapter to transfer files from my computer. The slot on the printer is under the bed next to the Y axis extrusion and it's difficult to access. I found an extension cable on Amazon... perhaps a similar concept to your friend's product. The concept worked great to move the micro SD card to the front of the user interface where it was much more ergonomic. Unfortunately, the cheap adapter would pop out of the printer's micro SD slot in the middle of a print. I was unable to find the original product on Amazon. The cheap clone that didn't work probably put the original company out of business. This is a big problem on Amazon.
I like to use the sd card for multiple reasons. 1) I have a dedicated computer for slicing files literally steps from the printers in my print farm. Some of my printers don’t even offer network capabilities so I am already in the habit of putting files on usb or sd card. 2) I like having the files available to select and available to print from the printer. Many times I’ll load a days worth of sliced files to my card and move thru the list. And a side note, if your pc is online your files are at risk. I always laugh about security concerns with Bambu labs printers yet they have sometimes thousands of files on their computer that is connected to the internet. Unless you have all your files on a usb hard drive that you disconnect after you do what you need, or your computer isn’t attached to the internet it’s a moot point. Also if it’s like this guy says, nothing is stopping someone from buying a physical copy of your item and making a new file. Do I sometimes use the Bambu cloud, yeah but mostly it’s all on a sd card and I just don’t worry about it. I have had some customers that require non networked pc and printers and dedicated usb or sd cards for the work I’ve done, and they pay for the added layer of security. But generally those are prototypes and copyrighted items.
I found your video because I have been VERY hesitant about the Bambu Labs products. I am not so much worried about the cloud aspect. I am more concerned about the proprietary slicer. Is the slicer software cloud based or can you install it without it "calling home to Mama"? Will it work without internet. If not, I'm out until someone figures out how to use it with Cura. There is nothing to say that the cloud based software that is free today will also be free tomorrow.
@@ZubairHamed Yep, but with a bunch of Bambu secret sauce sprinkled in. From what I've heard, Orca Slicer (which is based on Bambu Studio) provides a switch to turn off the phone-home aspects of Bambu Studio. I haven't used either (PrusaSlicer here) so I may be mistaken. Take this with the pinch of salt appropriate for 3rd-hand information.
I would have to say that your title was a little bit click bait. Having said that the video was very well presented and you made a lot of valid points. I’m not big on cloud storage. You mentioned Google & Apple as elephants in the room but Amazon is just as bad. You are absolutely correct the products that are spit out on 3D printers are not that hard to copy if you have some CAD skills & want to spend the time to figure it out. Heck I’ve looked at stuff & said I can design that, firing up FreeCAD & start designing. I don’t do this to make items to sell, I do it to improve my CAD skills. If your really afraid of Bambu stealing your files, there’s always the LAN mode at least on the X1C.
thanks for this video. Good topic. the reality of the situation is keeping things proprietary is VERY difficult whether your a small joe in your garage with no $$ or even if you're GE making industrial equipment. At the end of the day.. these are real physical things and anything can be copied. Why do we buy industrial equipment from GE vs knockoffs in China? because 1) guaranteed quality 2) support 3) warranty 4) accountability... etc etc. $0.02 from another engineer. btw still liking your bambu's? is getting that part injection molded cheaper than you printing on the bambu?
Thanks man! Your videos got me inspired to start my own brand and design my own first products. I found a couple of cool niches and I'm just as passionate. The P1Ps make prototyping exciting instead of daunting vs the old printer speeds. Happy printing!
not to promote ender but what I do is, i have a dedicated laptop by the printer with remote desktop and a share drive. i export my stl to the share drive then open it in the slicer on the laptop and click print. this laptop is also cut off from the internet. can i do the same with bambu? this is very important to me, i like to do it my way and i don't want to rely on another person's server. i will never do that thing with the sd card, that's ridiculous, despite the printer being on the other side of the room. does bambu force you to use the cloud if you're not gonna do the sd card thing or can you print via usb like i'm doing with the ender?
I understand perfectly what you are saying, but you can actually protect yourself from being copied. Depending on the country that you are selling into, you can apply your product model to proprietary rights organisation in your country with with all product specs (that is if you are the inventor of the product and no one has applied before you), and if someone tries to sell it in your country, you are entitled by law to request their removal from the market (on etsy or amazon or wherever they are selling) because you have proprietary rights and documents proving it, and also entitled to attack them in court. All the marketplaces will have to comply with that.
You make very useful videos and I decided to go with a X1C after your previous one. You mentioned you stay off amazon now, how do you sell your products now? Via your own website? I have an idea for a product and my plan was initially to sell it on amazon, but I don't want to have it copied 10 times right away. I don't mind the extra hassle/expense of "doing it right", so what would you suggest to minimize the chances of being copied?
I do not have a alexa in my home, and I have all the google assistant settings in my phone turned off. Anything could possibly be copied sure, but depending on the complexity of your product, and the basic security steps you take, it might not be worth it.
You are so right! I have to delete all my Google and Apple and Microsoft accounts. Because this is true that they can keep our data hostage any time they want and they can be hacked and our data stolen. But why letting a company like Bambu Lab also keeping an eye on your own creation? They have copies of log files and camera feeds. Probably other information along the way.
lol when he holds up a pair of calipers and says micrometer, but yes you can do quite a lot with a pair of calipers and fusion 360 or something. I modeled up some physical parts to learn 3d modeling on it a long time ago (with a pair of calipers).
I was thinking about how you can sign in your product - after all you have 3 D printer and you can engrave your sign in every product you sale .... so customer can track the product you do . and will support you .
Good points, but I think it is important to clarify that you are talking about you and your market and your products. Yeah, the home user and probably most people printing simple objects for sale don't have much to worry about. But what if you want to print something that will never be on Amazon? In "real" industry, espionage is a legitimate concern. You sign NDAs and check your phone at the gate (because it has a camera) when visiting plants. An STL for a prototype part might give someone insight into proprietary methods and processes. Then there's the whole topic of China and its government's coordination and facilitation of industrial espionage. This really makes comparing Bambu to Autodesk a false equivalence. You might say, well, people who need that kind of information security aren't buying Bambu printers, but that's underestimating the tight-fistedness of bosses. ;-)
lets say i have a oppotunity for a grant and decide i want to get into 3d printing and i also would have the chance to get contract jobs in different filed like petroleum , offices , water supply contracts what printers industrial level should i go for ,..... ive made a plan but i want to see if anything you suggest comes up with what ive planned already
What software do you use to design parts and what would be a good software for somebody starting out who wants to get into designing their own 3D iteams.
You mentioned that you now have one of your parts you’re going to start having injection molded, can you elaborate on that? You’ve 3D printed that part for years it sounds like but is 3D printing now working for that part?
Is the slicing software cloud based though? Can you work on stuff completely offline? I thought the issue was the slicing not the actual stl to the machine over wifi part..
Hope things are continuing to go well with the new printers Joe. Assuming your sales are regular enough, good move on the injection molding. That'll free up resources and save you time. I would think you'd be able to sample test a batch now as opposed to testing every single part being shipped.
I 100% test every 3D part I ship with a simple pull test. It probably adds one second to the packaging process. Once the design and 3D printing process is dialed in, the failure rate is essentially 0%, but it's so easy to do that I consider 100% pull testing to be well worth the one second per part.
If I am a manufacturer and I have a Non Disclosure Agreement with my customer to print their product, and Bambu Labs is getting a copy of their product, that immediately violates my NDA with my customer. I should be able to use the printer without compromising the privacy of said product. You can not print via SD card or LAN only and the Bambu Labs not save the data - it’s not an option, and neither can you use the machine without updating the firmware (unlike an iPhone). I appreciate your honest perspective about it, but I think you’re a little naive about it (especially considering folks who might want to print gun parts without having to worry if the ATF or FBI is going to come knocking on the door because a part you printed appears to be something they think is illegal )
I have evidence that this does indeed happen. It has happened to me on ebay. I sell a bowling ball quarter scale on ebay and the other day, 12 more listings for the same item has been listed and it is clear they have my file. Not sure how to stop this since it has already happened. I thought I saved to the SD directly, maybe I was lazy one day and now I pay for it. Anything I can do?
The problem is if you want to stay offline, Bambu Lab apparently doesn't allow you to update the firmware through an sd card. That's not "silly," that's a serious problem for security conscious people. *Anyone not concerned with why Bambu Lab encrypts what should be simple log files is a silly thinker especially if they're running a 3d printing business.* If I contract you to create something for me, I don't want to have to worry about Bambu Lab stealing *my* property because you think security is silly, and don't pretend China is an ethical broker in this topic. Just because you think it's silly, it doesn't mean it's silly, maybe it's you.
I could probably agree with you to about 99.9%. What gets me is that people say that Bambulab can get your files because they are in China. Well guess what? If you have a Bambulab printer using the cloud, it is a Amazon server in the US. This I have verified with whois, which I think most haven't. It doesn't mean anyone can't take it, but at least they should get their facts right about where the files are stored before they say that being in China is the problem.
I don't think anybody is worried about trinkets being stolen. The issue is the potential to invade networks in a conflict with China and general dependence on some company having the ability to cut off service whenever they want.
Another top vid that dosn't throw emotion or crap into the mix. I don't have a prob with their cloud... it works sooo damm smooth i'd cant stand not being able to use some thing similar on all our other printers. Being able to use the slicer and send it to the printer hassle and fuss free is a god sent. I'll even slice and send the occasional dick print just in the hope some one @ BL's will see it and get a good laff!
So I will tell you where the bamboo cloud is an issue. It is not an issue for hobbiests or even small businesses. But 3d printers are good tools to test prototypes on. In some cases for products that are not yet in the market. The data on that kind of stuff is valuable to not bamboo labs themsleves, but to other companies who simply do nothing but steal others designs and patent them in china. You can have a US patent, but if you don't have a Chinese patent, the Chinese can import them and sell though ebay and that patent you just filed is useless. So its common practice for many companies to file in both China and the US at the same time to ensure that that your product is not stolen because a guy with a pair of calipers and some eyeballs can completely match your design of whatever you produce. Now obviously not something a regular hobbiest or even small business will do since it can cost a good 10k just in the US but for those in the commercial side of things, there is a big problem with espionage and companies buying data about other companies. So in that instance you have to be careful. But if you are reading this, you are not in that sector. no one cares about what you specifically are printing because your 3d print isn't a test for a new product line that has yet to file the patents with the potential for millions of dollars. Though if you are in that sector, you already know that everything needs to stay offline and not connected to the internet so it doesn't matter anyways.
Until you slap a $10,000 patent on it, it's free for everyone to use. Get over it people. Even then, like he said a pair of calipers and drawing software can be reproduced.
Oh no! I'm going to shut off my Google cloud backup and take all of my designs off the Fusion 360 cloud storage! lol, people love to get really worried about stuff they don't understand.
Ok, you could go full on Oscar Wilde and say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but I feel you. Copycats are annoying. But what can you do, except bringing out your product from yesterday and planning already the one for tomorrow. And honestly: if it's out there, it's gone. BTW: I enjoy your videos and how you surf this crazy wave of entrepreneurship (and not being a "start up").
The reason I crossed the X1 off my list is because the files need to be sent to China if I want to use Wifi. Why? Why would they force me to send them my files if not to collect my IP? Maybe your right and I shouldn't be concerned but I am and they lost a client.
I was thinking the same thing. They could have just as easily allowed you to work on your local network to send files like open source versions of Klipper. Why force everything to the cloud?
Anyone who is fine, with using a cloud service, most likely did not spend enough time creating it, to justify the value of their effort. Also only those designs, that establish significant monetary benefit, will likely be copied. Having it available in the cloud, is a matter of time to market, the competition catches up with the original product. Any complex design, can be tweaked enough to print well in a sub par 3d printer for volume production. Just some 💭
I like the points you make. Yeah, Alexa and Siri listen to you, but the real question is how do you parse millions of gigabytes of audio, have AI analyze it, and extract useful information from it? Same with 3D prints. How many pokemon and flower pot prints would you need to dig through on Bambu cloud before you discovered some product under development that no one else has ever thought of, duplicate it, market it and sell your own version? It's implausible to me.
The situation is made worse by this release, the A1 an entry level printer aimed at younger customers, I foresee many A1 printers ending up in childrens bedrooms, the A1 will collect images, ether directly or via mirrored images may well include indecent images of your children. Collecting such images is illegal in many countries and Bambu labs need to ammend privacy policy or risk being guilty of creating indecent images of children in many countries!
Aside from the somewhat 'click-bait' video title you make some very fair points. You probably could improve the title by using journalistic conventions of placing the Your Files Aren't Safe phrase in double quotes. Just a minor point. I've had similar struggles around how success can be copied and the nature of ideas. Where I live the British Library offers advice through a scheme for businesses on intellectual property protection and building a business around 'original' designs. Honestly, the 3 hours I spent in that meeting was an eye opener and, as you say, there are many factors on which you can compete and stand out in the marketplace beyond the actual physical shape and function of your design. I worry much less now, am grateful for the success I've had and see the 'cause and effect' of current and future success in what I do much more clearly. I'm not concerned about bambu labs, they've created a vertically integrated ecosystem that simply works, works efficiently and in pure business terms makes me money - fast! It's not perfect and has some risks but the privacy of gcode passing through their services is not one of them. The risk that keeps me up at night is that a change made by bambu to any of its ecosystem components could result in issues in the resulting product. A good example is their implementation of 'arc fitting' produces a poor quality result on some of my designs compared to Prusa slicer after a recent update to their slicer. But that's why I have diversity in my printer farm, always test new versions of slicer/firmware and maintain known good libraries of sliced g-code. As a business you need to identify risks, decide if they're within your appetite for risk, and take steps to mitigate risks that are unacceptable. Competition will 'feel' unfair but good risk management makes for a rational way of dealing with it. And, if at the end of the day you lose, move on and take another risk. Other thoughts: If your design has solved a particular problem then there's every chance that somebody who has experienced the same problem could arrive at precisely the same solution. If that resultant solution is obvious to somebody 'skilled in the art' there is no innovation anyway and your 'originality' lies only in that you designed your version yourself. But you may have first move advantage and that's where you seize your moment - and it could just be a moment. I am much more concerned about amazon (a US company - not china) who operate a marketplace, control how participants in that marketplace interact with customers AND also operate in the same marketplace using their own brands. Your product might be wildly successful and you may be first to the marketplace with your product, the product category may even be entirely your doing, but Amazon's own brands might show-up any time. They have data that your entry to the market created but you don't have the same access that they do. If you're making accessories for another brands products, that brand could have a far bigger influence on the viability of your business compared to worrying about chinese companies ripping off your design. If the brand revises the design of their product to incorporate your improvement, changes their product so your design is not relevant, you have no future customers and have limited options to cry foul. If the brand looks at your success and believes that customers might be confused as to whether your product is an 'official' branded accessory, they could accuse you of passing-off and file a trademark claim in your marketplace of choice and have you removed. This is especially the case if there is any whiff of a safety concern. I could go on, but I'll leave it there. Breakfast is ready!
The reasons your products get copied are a) as you said, people showing others how to find successful amazon products to copy, and b) you literally made a youtube channel about it. The first thing I did when I first saw your channel was try to copy your product lol. The problem was I didn't own the machine that it fit on, and saw others trying to sell them and they weren't a perfect fit and apparently, people REALLY wanted them to be a perfect fit. So it was just easier for me to sell other stuff. If I had that machined metal cylinder like you and could make perfect-sized parts, I'd totally be selling that stuff. The models are on thingiverse, and tbh they may have been on there before you were even selling them (or maybe you put them there idk). Also things like Helium and Jungle Scout have a TON of users. So the minute you put something on Amazon, be ready for big potential sales, but big potential number copiers lol.
Yes, this is why I decided not to buy a Bambu Labs printer. I am not even sure about creality's K1. I think I just might build a Voron Trident instead even though I would rather just buy an already built corexy printer. The worst part will be printing the ABS 3d printed parts as I have no intention of doing that inside my house because of the toxic fumes.
Just curious, what software do you use to create your designs? Because if its onshape, fusion 123, sketchup, etc... you've got bigger issues than bambu getting access to your design's gcode. They have full access to your entire design. This guy makes some sensible points, you should watch the video and worry less about your gcode.
Lets be true to the problem here.... Cloud based printing has two issues.... Firstly, reliance on infrastructure that if gone, stops you using an inherrent offline tool. It doesn't make sense for an always online screwdriver, nor should it make sense to need a cloud service to use a 3d printer. In this case, gcode from the card is available... but nobody can confirm the printer doesn't also send that same gcode to the cloud for offline analysis and reconstruction. Secondly, private things are private. As time rolls on and the world gets creepier....what you print through a cloud will feed into other social metrics. My car, for example, watches my face and I'd lay money it tells my insurrance company if I yawned more than 3 times in a row. There is no-doubt that will be used to counter a claim based on fatigue management. Nobody is thinking "I'll lose money on my models" with the cloud system. It's either, reliance on a service you don't need or want, or it's "if I print this, whats the impact?"
Unless the Chinese gov't or Bambu are looking to horn in on my custom synth stand business, I'm not overly concerned. When/if I do get concerned, the printer is arm's reach from my computer, I can just use the SD card. I'm getting good reviews & ratings as much for my communication skills as for my designs, I don't think the Chinese gov't or Bambu can compete with me there! As you say, I'm more concerned about Autodesk having access to my ideas than Bambu 😁 FWIW finding your channel while separating from my previous career due to nervous breakdown was a big stepping stone towards me believing I can actually do this for a living instead of going right back into the grind working for another POS. I had a boss telling me for 15 years I was worthless, now after taking the leap I'm getting so many compliments on my work and repeat customers. And it's MY work, MY ideas! The benefits to my self-esteem and self-confidence this year have been incalculable, so thank you for your content and it's contribution to my journey! -Barry
I haven’t finished watching the video yet so forgive me if this was addressed but here goes: not everybody is designing 3D printed widgets. Some of us are designing more complicated products that will take years to develop and where first mover advantage is everything. Ask Bambu if they would comfortable using Creality cloud for their prototypes.
If I am going to send my part to an injection moulding company that I do not feel I can trust, they are just getting one part of a multi-part assembly and will know as little as possible as to what it’s for. Some of us are just dreamers and 3D printing is a way to hold and test them. Granted, few of these are worth much but they are only worth anything if they are kept safe. I have no reason to trust a company from a country that has so blatantly tolerated, if not encouraged, the stealing of IP.
I'd be more worried about the sales rep that visits the studio or workshop and sees what you are doing and being a sales rep who by history have a reputation of being blabber mouths, chats to your competitor and share your secrets, or visa versa. Anyone who visits your website or etsy can copy and produce your idea in a few hours. So many have their succefull products stolen and copied, then appear with your marketting images but 1/10th of the cost. We forget that China makes almost all consumer products in our homes so if they really wanted to spy they could secretly embed these spy systems into out phones, tv's, toasters, microwaves, robot vacuum cleaner etc,etc,etc. They dont need to though as google, apple and sumsung already have the triopoly on spying on us.
The devil is in the detailes. Why they store the original STL file in the 3mf ? First, the company is a Chinese company and we know that big brothers wants all your information. Second, by seeing how many prints of a kind are produced I know that its a succesful product, they can sell the design to big manufacturers and flood the market with cheap copies, therefore killing the small creators, that don't have a injection molding factory in their pockets. Therefore Bambulab will be able not only to sell your design but selling it with the actual proof that it is a succesful product, by only looking at statistics. Thats low effort money for themselves and the demise as a small creator. Also industrial espionaje.
I always think it's funny that people think that you can actually go through all of these vast amount of files and like take a peating power. Just isn't there, but keep thinking that they have enough computing power to steal your files and.
Some very good points. Everyone forgets how much we rely on cloud services now days... you point these out very well. Love your videos and you approach to work. Trying my best to get my side business going as well, and i love watching your videos for inspiration/ideas. Haven't found my niche market yet, but still working on it.
Your response to concerns about Bambu Lab's excessive cloudification of basic functions amounting to: "everyone other company does it too" falls extremely flat for me. I don't like how Autodesk has my files either, they don't need them; just like Bambu Labs doesn't need my files. I don't like how google et al have my data either, but they have more legitimate reasons. Their products more often require cloud services. If I use google drive, I don't complain that google "has my data", that would be unreasonable. However, Bambu Labs printers' features are not analogous to this. I should be able to turn off the cloud, and still transfer files directly over my LOCAL network via wifi or ethernet, as well as monitor the camera feed while on the same local area network without needing to go through WAN to a third party cloud service. It's absolutely unneeded and invasive. These are two local devices on the same network. There is zero technical reason they can't communicate with each other locally. It's like if I was in the same room with another person, and Instead of just talking to them, we both pulled out our phones and started a phone call. WRT features like remote monitoring (away from home) etc., that's 100% understandable to only be supported by a cloud service, but it should not be so tightly coupled to other functionality that does not need to use the cloud to work. I hope that either Bambu Labs or the community will implement these software features locally, it would bring a lot of people peace of mind.
To give some justification for Autodesk having your files. They built an amazing CAD system. It's not just a 3D modeler, it's a system. It has modeling of course, but also rendering, finite element analysis, manufacturing, electronics design, animation and much more. Each one of these areas can take years to learn. Most people specialize in one area. Autodesk needs your files because they built a system for calibration. Calibration is necessary when you're creating complex designs. With the models in Autodesk's cloud, it's so easy for someone in manufacturing or FEA to view early versions of your design, while you're working on it and give you feedback. You don't end up wasting time on features they they may recommend changing. Larger designs have many parts and might have several people all needing to work with everyone's parts at the same time. Calibration creates much better designs, faster. Someone that makes some models for their 3D printer isn't what Fusion 360 was created for. But, it's great that we get to use it for that.
I think people see CHINA and wig out. My issue is with how broken lan only is, it makes me wonder if some of these people are right or if bambu labs is just lazy and doesn't want to fix up lan mode.
hmmm, if you make simple 3d products, it may be trivial to copy (given what you show, it would indeed be trivial to copy your parts; their value is in the idea and meeting a need, clearly. If your product involves finite element analysis, simulation and thousands of points, difficult to reproduce organic and/or mathematically generated forms, that isnt so easy. Yes, apple does in essence have access to my conversations and IP, but they are governed by quite a lot of law and they are insured for data breach that may lead to theft. basically i think your thoughts are pretty simplistic. Apple also has a track record or protecting my data pretty well over the course of nearly 40 years ... guess who doesnt.
no joke, im not a pro, far from it, but 3d modeling something just off of pictures and a few mesurements is so easy and about 95% the same in most cases
Stay away from the bambulab subreddit. Those paid pumping fanboys are sitting there 24/7 to downvote any legit topic that doesn’t glorify bambu or questions them in any way.
Of COURSE your files aren't safe. It's exactly the same with those printed circuit board sites. I personally know someone who worked for moths to create a product, doing all the engineering and testing in his basement. He spend somewhere around $50k developing, prototyping and testing, redesigning etc before he got it to where he was ready to make a few of the final revision for presentation to investors. Stupidly he sent his files in to Chinese pcb manufacture and before he could get his first until built and setup for the investors his EXACT design was found online for half of what his bare minimum would have been sold for. They stole his design and all his work and ruined him and there was nothing he could do about it. The moral he learned is that the moment you're files leave your possession assume they are no longer your files.
That's a sad story man...
What PCB mfg, did he send his files to?
@@qwerty13380 They all do that. There isn't any based in china that doesn't steal. I have known people have issues with all of them. The only way to be safe is to have an airtight contract with a specific company and patents. Because then if your idea is stolen and they are the only ones who had the files, it isn't hard to sue them in court and send a cease and desist to the company producing it. Just make sure your contract is within the bounds of the law within the country the PCB manufacturer is based in. Because if its a Chinese company, you will be in Chinese court. So I recomend doing your prototypes with a company in your country so you don't have to deal with that headache and if its new and revolutionary, patent it.
The whole issue a lot if people have with the printer is not that bamboo might use it. Its that the chinese government has unmitigated access to anyones designs.
The terms and conditions say they can collect cookies and network traffic =\. I'll definitely run mine offline, with an open source slicer.
How high up your horse do you have to be to think that the Chinese government has any interest whatsoever in your 3d prints.
Like there is earth shattering designs being randomly sent through the cloud 😅
If you're watching this on your phone, the argument that "bambu is going to steal my files" is irrelevant.
Its important to recogize the shelf life of your products. If you've made something that is simple to copy, you will get copied. Patents and trademarks are expensive and realistically of limited value to prevent this. The most effective way to extend the shelf life of a product and prevent copies is to make something more complex that is either hard or expensive to copy. This comes at a cost of longer development times and increased cost from a product failure. It's all a tradeoff but important to remember when developing new products.
Good points all around. I talk about the Bambu cloud stuff a lot because I have worked in industries where you’d get in big trouble for using a cloud service like what Bambu Lab offers.
Best thing to do is to keep as much private as possible IMO.
Also, I’m not worried about the GCode as much as them having a whole profile on what you print, how often, what materials you print with. They are extracting value out of you, the customer, and you’re paying them for the pleasure. At least Google and UA-cam offer you services for free in exchange for being creepy!
But you have a good point. You’re much more likely to have your idea stolen from an Amazon listing, where everyone can see how much you’re selling it for and the number of customers engaging with the product. But you also get a lot of sales through Amazon.
And you should keep bringing up the Bambu cloud stuff. For more difficult to design products with multiple parts or products that are highly innovative, security is still a very real issue.
@@xsvforce3335 I'm pretty sure nobody working on proprietary or secure products will be using the Bambu printers... But then again, there's always that one person...
Also, Markforged and other commercial providers have cloud functionality, but they are all US-based, so no ITAR concerns, and probably at least a couple cyber security measures in place.
Great points! I totally agree!
I would like to share a quick personal story about how I repurposed someone else's concept to meet our need, but I did use their tools. I have been a Manufacturing Designer & CNC programmer for nearly 2 decades, FYI.
Going back over a decade, there was/is a popular cabinet making software that offered a ridiculously expensive add-on package just to make plywood, dovetailed drawer boxes. It worked great, but the company I was working for wanted to stick with hardwood drawer boxes. I bought the tools needed, watched how it was ran, measured, reverse-engineered, and modified my own reusable custom program that allowed me to use their tools but account for varying sizes, hardwood, and prevent the tear out that comes with it. I got a higher end product for our customers and luckily managed to get it right on the 1st try; well, I had to open up a little to account for glue and wood swelling during assembly.
Anyways, you are right. Make your product, sell it, and move on to the next. Great vids BTW. Loved your recent shop tour vid. ;)
As a retired hobbyist that enjoys 3D printing I appreciate your insight. I would prefer a direct hookup to my Bambu printers, not just for security but control. A number of times their cloud has been down, and I submitted jobs, that simply seemed to disappear. The LAN mode has limits and I'm waiting for someone to devise a solution around their cloud.
I’m pretty sure you can send files to the SD card now. At least, I can with my P1Ps
@@threedeeprince I'll have to try that. I forgot there is a screen on the P1P
Joe, your comments about holding and coddling for fear of being copied and not moving forward are so spot on. That mindset absolutely retards growth and stifles innovation. If you are first to market with a superior product, just step on the gas and keep innovating. There's a lot of great content in this video, but that one point resonated so loudly with me it earned a sub. Thanks for posting.
You aren't getting the ads because you talked about it in front of your phone/smart speaker ... you're getting the ads because someone in the conversation, or someone known to someone in the conversation, looked up the (similar) product or posted about the (similar) product.
They don't need to listen to your conversations to be creepy... the marketing data brokers have all of that information just based on your habits and the habits of the people you interact with, and it's enough to do just what you said. I actually think that's creepier :)
Other than that, you bring up some very valid points.
I hope you share your experiences about any patent type processes you go through!
Thanks for sharing what you have so far.
The big tech companies 100% listen to you 24/7. It's in the TOS of most phones and services. I suggest you research some of the leaks that whistle-blowers gave their freedom for. Also, they dont just listen they watch too. Your camera collects data about you and your surroundings all day long.
Oh you have so given me confidence in maker business intelligence, so well done, totally amazing, maturity for your age & potential business years , so incredibly well done & perceptive. Boothy
AFAIK those printers can work just on your LAN and they have a button to disable their web access.
To your point: I have a Einstar scanner which theoretically allows me to copy any physical object. Lots of people have those, so yeah, STL files aren't everything.
FWIW, I just went through the setup on my K1 and P1P to compare. P1P requires you to use the app to register your printer to connect it to WiFi. Which means no LAN mode without registering, and no firmware updates without connecting to the internet beforehand. Also closed source means you can't really check things easily.
Appreciate that little bit of motivational advice toward the end, it's really something everyone needs to hear from time to time!
Hi Joe, Sorry for not reaching out to you sooner and hope you are well. Love the P1P videos. What are thoughts about the A1? On your P1Ps have you printed ASA, ABS and Carbon Fiber? Very curious about your experiences.
Finally someone addresses the overall arching with regards to 3D printing. So many people want to complain about a 3D printer storing files but yet they voluntarily display their entire life on social media which is way more useful than what you are 3d printing.
They don't want to use your data to print/manufacture their own goods. Your data is the thing of value in this scenario, they sell that.
I really appreciate you candidly sharing your experience and advice. It's wonderfully inspiring and I hope you continue to be successful, both on UA-cam and in your business.
Very well said. When I was a designer in college people were often times too precious with their ideas and didn't want to share or sell things they had designed, and the professors always had the exact same advice you gave. Just do it. And if and when someone copies you, do it better or improve your design. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :)
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" only applies to art and philosophy. Business and revenue don't care.
@@musicmanReborn business and revenue is 21st century art
You are a wise man. This video should be watched by every entrepreneur whether they use 3D printing or not.
Excellent points on the cloud, people freak out way too much (and also not enough). Great points on idea theft and, yes, many of us are tired of the cheap knock offs and happily pay more for a quality item.
Bro I love your videos...
how you always manage to capture and share the struggles and wins of this journey we all are on is so real, and resonates with so many of us.
I wish you massive success, may continue to grow beyond your wildest dreams.
You inspire many. Thank you
Great points. I think you are absolutely correct in the premise of folks unwillingness to strive for a better product instead of shooting for a quick turn of product. Keep making great content.
Really like your style man, you've got some great honest and valuable insights. Keep it up and all the best for your continuing success 🙌
Great video! I particularly appreciated the concept that your STL file isn't needed to copy your product. I created a niche market in 2006 and as soon as the products sold in volume and I was making a decent living, a few companies copied my products. I didn't expect to keep the entire market to myself, but I thought my products would encourage competition and others would make their own products, but no... they directly ripped off my products by making exact copies. They have greater sales because I'm an engineer and they're better at marketing. It's frustrating. I should either get better at marketing, or hire a marketing person to do that so I can focus on engineering. I don't enjoy marketing and I don't want to manage employees, so I'm instead focusing on developing new products that they'll rip off in a few months. 😕
My objection to cloud based manufacturing (or any cloud services) is mostly philosophical. I just don't like the idea of uploading anything to the cloud. I have no Apple devices. I avoid using Google's cloud for anything. I bought a Google Pixel 6 phone and immediately installed the private and secure Graphene OS to replace Google's Android spyware. I send encrypted email to anyone who uses encrypted email. Philosophically, I don't like sharing any information.
My practical concern is reliability. Why should I send my files to a server in China? What does that add to the process? I don't want to rely on someone's server to 3D print my parts. There is no reason the entire process shouldn't be local. I use FreeCAD to design the parts, in part because I don't want some CAD manufacturer getting their business in the middle of my design process. I should be able to design the part on my computer and print it on my 3D printer without needing to send anything over the internet. Simpler is better.
One thing I'd have liked to have seen in this video was a demonstration of copying the files to an SD card and inserting it into the printer. This sounds silly, but the devil is in the details. With my Sovol SV01 3D printer, I'm forced to use a tiny microSD card (much fumbling with my big fingers), which I must plug into a microSD to USB adapter, and the card slot in the SV01 is in a VERY inconvenient location. It's a huge PIA. If it used a USB port on the front of the printer, it'd be almost as easy as printing across a network.
Yup that's what I wanted to see too. Walk through of copying the file to the sd card and print on the bambu lab x1 carbon!
the SD slot on the X1 is on the side of the LCD screen. good spot but they way the trimmed it in plastic is a pain to pop it in and out.
I have a friend that sells a pretty niche product and this year ran into a similar situation where a Chinese company ripped the product off and to add insult to injury they used his pictures in the amazon listing. he has tried for months to have amazon take it down but they dont care.
@@MrBertstare - I have seven FDM 3D printers and two MSLA printers and the Sovol SV01 has been my go to printer for the over two years. Simple and cheap as the SV01 is, it's way better than my earlier printers. I'll probably upgrade to a K1 Max in a couple of months if Creality fixes some startup issues. The only thing I don't like about the SV01 is the micro SD card. It's a pain to handle that little card and use a USB adapter to transfer files from my computer. The slot on the printer is under the bed next to the Y axis extrusion and it's difficult to access. I found an extension cable on Amazon... perhaps a similar concept to your friend's product. The concept worked great to move the micro SD card to the front of the user interface where it was much more ergonomic. Unfortunately, the cheap adapter would pop out of the printer's micro SD slot in the middle of a print. I was unable to find the original product on Amazon. The cheap clone that didn't work probably put the original company out of business. This is a big problem on Amazon.
I like to use the sd card for multiple reasons.
1) I have a dedicated computer for slicing files literally steps from the printers in my print farm. Some of my printers don’t even offer network capabilities so I am already in the habit of putting files on usb or sd card.
2) I like having the files available to select and available to print from the printer. Many times I’ll load a days worth of sliced files to my card and move thru the list.
And a side note, if your pc is online your files are at risk. I always laugh about security concerns with Bambu labs printers yet they have sometimes thousands of files on their computer that is connected to the internet. Unless you have all your files on a usb hard drive that you disconnect after you do what you need, or your computer isn’t attached to the internet it’s a moot point. Also if it’s like this guy says, nothing is stopping someone from buying a physical copy of your item and making a new file. Do I sometimes use the Bambu cloud, yeah but mostly it’s all on a sd card and I just don’t worry about it.
I have had some customers that require non networked pc and printers and dedicated usb or sd cards for the work I’ve done, and they pay for the added layer of security. But generally those are prototypes and copyrighted items.
I found your video because I have been VERY hesitant about the Bambu Labs products. I am not so much worried about the cloud aspect. I am more concerned about the proprietary slicer. Is the slicer software cloud based or can you install it without it "calling home to Mama"? Will it work without internet. If not, I'm out until someone figures out how to use it with Cura. There is nothing to say that the cloud based software that is free today will also be free tomorrow.
isn't bambu studio based on prusaslicer?
@@ZubairHamedyup.
It also works with orcaslicer, simplify3d, etc.
@@ZubairHamed Yep, but with a bunch of Bambu secret sauce sprinkled in. From what I've heard, Orca Slicer (which is based on Bambu Studio) provides a switch to turn off the phone-home aspects of Bambu Studio. I haven't used either (PrusaSlicer here) so I may be mistaken. Take this with the pinch of salt appropriate for 3rd-hand information.
I would have to say that your title was a little bit click bait. Having said that the video was very well presented and you made a lot of valid points. I’m not big on cloud storage. You mentioned Google & Apple as elephants in the room but Amazon is just as bad. You are absolutely correct the products that are spit out on 3D printers are not that hard to copy if you have some CAD skills & want to spend the time to figure it out. Heck I’ve looked at stuff & said I can design that, firing up FreeCAD & start designing. I don’t do this to make items to sell, I do it to improve my CAD skills. If your really afraid of Bambu stealing your files, there’s always the LAN mode at least on the X1C.
thanks for this video. Good topic. the reality of the situation is keeping things proprietary is VERY difficult whether your a small joe in your garage with no $$ or even if you're GE making industrial equipment. At the end of the day.. these are real physical things and anything can be copied. Why do we buy industrial equipment from GE vs knockoffs in China? because 1) guaranteed quality 2) support 3) warranty 4) accountability... etc etc. $0.02 from another engineer. btw still liking your bambu's? is getting that part injection molded cheaper than you printing on the bambu?
Thanks man! Your videos got me inspired to start my own brand and design my own first products. I found a couple of cool niches and I'm just as passionate. The P1Ps make prototyping exciting instead of daunting vs the old printer speeds. Happy printing!
I print anything important using a completely offline workflow. People call me paranoid 😅
another great video Joe. I always love your humble honesty.
What if you're printing parts for a customer and you signed an NDA? Cloud is a no-go in that situation. Lots of B2B 3d printing operates under NDA.
Did you get an AMS for the X1C?
There is LAN mode too that requires no cloud or SD card
Can you use the Wi-Fi to send prints to the printer when in LAN only mode? Is bambu lab account required for LAN only mode?
@martinson manufacturing : which cad software does this to? I think it was tinkercad or fusion ..
not to promote ender but what I do is, i have a dedicated laptop by the printer with remote desktop and a share drive. i export my stl to the share drive then open it in the slicer on the laptop and click print. this laptop is also cut off from the internet. can i do the same with bambu? this is very important to me, i like to do it my way and i don't want to rely on another person's server. i will never do that thing with the sd card, that's ridiculous, despite the printer being on the other side of the room. does bambu force you to use the cloud if you're not gonna do the sd card thing or can you print via usb like i'm doing with the ender?
I understand perfectly what you are saying, but you can actually protect yourself from being copied. Depending on the country that you are selling into, you can apply your product model to proprietary rights organisation in your country with with all product specs (that is if you are the inventor of the product and no one has applied before you), and if someone tries to sell it in your country, you are entitled by law to request their removal from the market (on etsy or amazon or wherever they are selling) because you have proprietary rights and documents proving it, and also entitled to attack them in court. All the marketplaces will have to comply with that.
Great advice. Thanks for the motivation some of us need. here's to your success
You make very useful videos and I decided to go with a X1C after your previous one. You mentioned you stay off amazon now, how do you sell your products now? Via your own website? I have an idea for a product and my plan was initially to sell it on amazon, but I don't want to have it copied 10 times right away. I don't mind the extra hassle/expense of "doing it right", so what would you suggest to minimize the chances of being copied?
I do not have a alexa in my home, and I have all the google assistant settings in my phone turned off. Anything could possibly be copied sure, but depending on the complexity of your product, and the basic security steps you take, it might not be worth it.
Great video and mindset. Instant sub!
You are so right!
I have to delete all my Google and Apple and Microsoft accounts. Because this is true that they can keep our data hostage any time they want and they can be hacked and our data stolen.
But why letting a company like Bambu Lab also keeping an eye on your own creation? They have copies of log files and camera feeds. Probably other information along the way.
You answered my questions I posted on another video!
lol when he holds up a pair of calipers and says micrometer, but yes you can do quite a lot with a pair of calipers and fusion 360 or something. I modeled up some physical parts to learn 3d modeling on it a long time ago (with a pair of calipers).
I was thinking about how you can sign in your product - after all you have 3 D printer and you can engrave your sign in every product you sale .... so customer can track the product you do . and will support you .
Good points, but I think it is important to clarify that you are talking about you and your market and your products. Yeah, the home user and probably most people printing simple objects for sale don't have much to worry about. But what if you want to print something that will never be on Amazon? In "real" industry, espionage is a legitimate concern. You sign NDAs and check your phone at the gate (because it has a camera) when visiting plants. An STL for a prototype part might give someone insight into proprietary methods and processes. Then there's the whole topic of China and its government's coordination and facilitation of industrial espionage. This really makes comparing Bambu to Autodesk a false equivalence.
You might say, well, people who need that kind of information security aren't buying Bambu printers, but that's underestimating the tight-fistedness of bosses. ;-)
lets say i have a oppotunity for a grant and decide i want to get into 3d printing and i also would have the chance to get contract jobs in different filed like petroleum , offices , water supply contracts what printers industrial level should i go for ,..... ive made a plan but i want to see if anything you suggest comes up with what ive planned already
What software do you use to design parts and what would be a good software for somebody starting out who wants to get into designing their own 3D iteams.
You mentioned that you now have one of your parts you’re going to start having injection molded, can you elaborate on that? You’ve 3D printed that part for years it sounds like but is 3D printing now working for that part?
Is the slicing software cloud based though? Can you work on stuff completely offline? I thought the issue was the slicing not the actual stl to the machine over wifi part..
That means, if i want use WLAN it always goes over the cloud?
Hope things are continuing to go well with the new printers Joe. Assuming your sales are regular enough, good move on the injection molding. That'll free up resources and save you time. I would think you'd be able to sample test a batch now as opposed to testing every single part being shipped.
I 100% test every 3D part I ship with a simple pull test. It probably adds one second to the packaging process. Once the design and 3D printing process is dialed in, the failure rate is essentially 0%, but it's so easy to do that I consider 100% pull testing to be well worth the one second per part.
If I am a manufacturer and I have a Non Disclosure Agreement with my customer to print their product, and Bambu Labs is getting a copy of their product, that immediately violates my NDA with my customer. I should be able to use the printer without compromising the privacy of said product. You can not print via SD card or LAN only and the Bambu Labs not save the data - it’s not an option, and neither can you use the machine without updating the firmware (unlike an iPhone). I appreciate your honest perspective about it, but I think you’re a little naive about it (especially considering folks who might want to print gun parts without having to worry if the ATF or FBI is going to come knocking on the door because a part you printed appears to be something they think is illegal )
love the video. Thought you were going to argue against bambu. Glad you called out reality to people. Good work.
I have evidence that this does indeed happen. It has happened to me on ebay. I sell a bowling ball quarter scale on ebay and the other day, 12 more listings for the same item has been listed and it is clear they have my file. Not sure how to stop this since it has already happened. I thought I saved to the SD directly, maybe I was lazy one day and now I pay for it. Anything I can do?
I don't care about anyone copying my stuff, I'm just afraid of the Chinese government.
What do you mean you haven't shared your gcode does everyone have different codes?
Thanks for your videos ❤
The problem is if you want to stay offline, Bambu Lab apparently doesn't allow you to update the firmware through an sd card. That's not "silly," that's a serious problem for security conscious people. *Anyone not concerned with why Bambu Lab encrypts what should be simple log files is a silly thinker especially if they're running a 3d printing business.* If I contract you to create something for me, I don't want to have to worry about Bambu Lab stealing *my* property because you think security is silly, and don't pretend China is an ethical broker in this topic. Just because you think it's silly, it doesn't mean it's silly, maybe it's you.
Why so angry?
@@memcrew1 Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension if that's what you got out of it, or is that all you can muster up as an argument?
What if you send it to your sd card over wifi, that doesn't go through the cloud does it?
Great advice.
Great thoughts
The solution is to run the printer offline or run it on the local LAN only.
I could probably agree with you to about 99.9%. What gets me is that people say that Bambulab can get your files because they are in China. Well guess what? If you have a Bambulab printer using the cloud, it is a Amazon server in the US. This I have verified with whois, which I think most haven't. It doesn't mean anyone can't take it, but at least they should get their facts right about where the files are stored before they say that being in China is the problem.
I have had few items copied, it the biggest complement. You Just have to have the best product, and customer service.
Is its worth it for you to file a design Patent on your product? I too worry about selling my inventions on Amazon and Etsy.
here's a guy that invented a $1m product and how he sold it first before patenting it:
ua-cam.com/video/9b08TxacFxI/v-deo.html
Spot on, thank you.
I don't think anybody is worried about trinkets being stolen. The issue is the potential to invade networks in a conflict with China and general dependence on some company having the ability to cut off service whenever they want.
Another top vid that dosn't throw emotion or crap into the mix. I don't have a prob with their cloud... it works sooo damm smooth i'd cant stand not being able to use some thing similar on all our other printers. Being able to use the slicer and send it to the printer hassle and fuss free is a god sent. I'll even slice and send the occasional dick print just in the hope some one @ BL's will see it and get a good laff!
Lol!
thank you very much - i m 100% with you!
Dismantle. Yes. I wanna learn fusion 360, but I don't feel confident in my time of use, or trying to learn it.
So I will tell you where the bamboo cloud is an issue. It is not an issue for hobbiests or even small businesses. But 3d printers are good tools to test prototypes on. In some cases for products that are not yet in the market. The data on that kind of stuff is valuable to not bamboo labs themsleves, but to other companies who simply do nothing but steal others designs and patent them in china. You can have a US patent, but if you don't have a Chinese patent, the Chinese can import them and sell though ebay and that patent you just filed is useless. So its common practice for many companies to file in both China and the US at the same time to ensure that that your product is not stolen because a guy with a pair of calipers and some eyeballs can completely match your design of whatever you produce. Now obviously not something a regular hobbiest or even small business will do since it can cost a good 10k just in the US but for those in the commercial side of things, there is a big problem with espionage and companies buying data about other companies. So in that instance you have to be careful.
But if you are reading this, you are not in that sector. no one cares about what you specifically are printing because your 3d print isn't a test for a new product line that has yet to file the patents with the potential for millions of dollars. Though if you are in that sector, you already know that everything needs to stay offline and not connected to the internet so it doesn't matter anyways.
Until you slap a $10,000 patent on it, it's free for everyone to use. Get over it people. Even then, like he said a pair of calipers and drawing software can be reproduced.
how about just using it to develop prototypes?
Oh no! I'm going to shut off my Google cloud backup and take all of my designs off the Fusion 360 cloud storage! lol, people love to get really worried about stuff they don't understand.
Ok, you could go full on Oscar Wilde and say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but I feel you. Copycats are annoying. But what can you do, except bringing out your product from yesterday and planning already the one for tomorrow. And honestly: if it's out there, it's gone. BTW: I enjoy your videos and how you surf this crazy wave of entrepreneurship (and not being a "start up").
take a step forward and move forward....
The reason I crossed the X1 off my list is because the files need to be sent to China if I want to use Wifi. Why? Why would they force me to send them my files if not to collect my IP? Maybe your right and I shouldn't be concerned but I am and they lost a client.
I was thinking the same thing. They could have just as easily allowed you to work on your local network to send files like open source versions of Klipper. Why force everything to the cloud?
I have a Bambu P1S and wifi works perfectly fine on lan only mode.
Anyone who is fine, with using a cloud service, most likely did not spend enough time creating it, to justify the value of their effort. Also only those designs, that establish significant monetary benefit, will likely be copied. Having it available in the cloud, is a matter of time to market, the competition catches up with the original product. Any complex design, can be tweaked enough to print well in a sub par 3d printer for volume production. Just some 💭
I like the points you make. Yeah, Alexa and Siri listen to you, but the real question is how do you parse millions of gigabytes of audio, have AI analyze it, and extract useful information from it? Same with 3D prints. How many pokemon and flower pot prints would you need to dig through on Bambu cloud before you discovered some product under development that no one else has ever thought of, duplicate it, market it and sell your own version? It's implausible to me.
The situation is made worse by this release, the A1 an entry level printer aimed at younger customers, I foresee many A1 printers ending up in childrens bedrooms, the A1 will collect images, ether directly or via mirrored images may well include indecent images of your children.
Collecting such images is illegal in many countries and Bambu labs need to ammend privacy policy or risk being guilty of creating indecent images of children in many countries!
Aside from the somewhat 'click-bait' video title you make some very fair points. You probably could improve the title by using journalistic conventions of placing the Your Files Aren't Safe phrase in double quotes. Just a minor point.
I've had similar struggles around how success can be copied and the nature of ideas. Where I live the British Library offers advice through a scheme for businesses on intellectual property protection and building a business around 'original' designs. Honestly, the 3 hours I spent in that meeting was an eye opener and, as you say, there are many factors on which you can compete and stand out in the marketplace beyond the actual physical shape and function of your design. I worry much less now, am grateful for the success I've had and see the 'cause and effect' of current and future success in what I do much more clearly.
I'm not concerned about bambu labs, they've created a vertically integrated ecosystem that simply works, works efficiently and in pure business terms makes me money - fast! It's not perfect and has some risks but the privacy of gcode passing through their services is not one of them. The risk that keeps me up at night is that a change made by bambu to any of its ecosystem components could result in issues in the resulting product. A good example is their implementation of 'arc fitting' produces a poor quality result on some of my designs compared to Prusa slicer after a recent update to their slicer. But that's why I have diversity in my printer farm, always test new versions of slicer/firmware and maintain known good libraries of sliced g-code.
As a business you need to identify risks, decide if they're within your appetite for risk, and take steps to mitigate risks that are unacceptable. Competition will 'feel' unfair but good risk management makes for a rational way of dealing with it. And, if at the end of the day you lose, move on and take another risk.
Other thoughts:
If your design has solved a particular problem then there's every chance that somebody who has experienced the same problem could arrive at precisely the same solution. If that resultant solution is obvious to somebody 'skilled in the art' there is no innovation anyway and your 'originality' lies only in that you designed your version yourself. But you may have first move advantage and that's where you seize your moment - and it could just be a moment.
I am much more concerned about amazon (a US company - not china) who operate a marketplace, control how participants in that marketplace interact with customers AND also operate in the same marketplace using their own brands. Your product might be wildly successful and you may be first to the marketplace with your product, the product category may even be entirely your doing, but Amazon's own brands might show-up any time. They have data that your entry to the market created but you don't have the same access that they do.
If you're making accessories for another brands products, that brand could have a far bigger influence on the viability of your business compared to worrying about chinese companies ripping off your design. If the brand revises the design of their product to incorporate your improvement, changes their product so your design is not relevant, you have no future customers and have limited options to cry foul. If the brand looks at your success and believes that customers might be confused as to whether your product is an 'official' branded accessory, they could accuse you of passing-off and file a trademark claim in your marketplace of choice and have you removed. This is especially the case if there is any whiff of a safety concern.
I could go on, but I'll leave it there. Breakfast is ready!
The reasons your products get copied are a) as you said, people showing others how to find successful amazon products to copy, and b) you literally made a youtube channel about it. The first thing I did when I first saw your channel was try to copy your product lol. The problem was I didn't own the machine that it fit on, and saw others trying to sell them and they weren't a perfect fit and apparently, people REALLY wanted them to be a perfect fit. So it was just easier for me to sell other stuff. If I had that machined metal cylinder like you and could make perfect-sized parts, I'd totally be selling that stuff. The models are on thingiverse, and tbh they may have been on there before you were even selling them (or maybe you put them there idk). Also things like Helium and Jungle Scout have a TON of users. So the minute you put something on Amazon, be ready for big potential sales, but big potential number copiers lol.
I do, thats why I have a de-googled phone with wifi, bluetooth and GPS external killswitches
Yes, this is why I decided not to buy a Bambu Labs printer. I am not even sure about creality's K1. I think I just might build a Voron Trident instead even though I would rather just buy an already built corexy printer. The worst part will be printing the ABS 3d printed parts as I have no intention of doing that inside my house because of the toxic fumes.
Just curious, what software do you use to create your designs?
Because if its onshape, fusion 123, sketchup, etc... you've got bigger issues than bambu getting access to your design's gcode. They have full access to your entire design.
This guy makes some sensible points, you should watch the video and worry less about your gcode.
Lets be true to the problem here.... Cloud based printing has two issues.... Firstly, reliance on infrastructure that if gone, stops you using an inherrent offline tool. It doesn't make sense for an always online screwdriver, nor should it make sense to need a cloud service to use a 3d printer. In this case, gcode from the card is available... but nobody can confirm the printer doesn't also send that same gcode to the cloud for offline analysis and reconstruction.
Secondly, private things are private. As time rolls on and the world gets creepier....what you print through a cloud will feed into other social metrics. My car, for example, watches my face and I'd lay money it tells my insurrance company if I yawned more than 3 times in a row. There is no-doubt that will be used to counter a claim based on fatigue management.
Nobody is thinking "I'll lose money on my models" with the cloud system. It's either, reliance on a service you don't need or want, or it's "if I print this, whats the impact?"
Think your yt profile also pushed the copying
Unless the Chinese gov't or Bambu are looking to horn in on my custom synth stand business, I'm not overly concerned. When/if I do get concerned, the printer is arm's reach from my computer, I can just use the SD card. I'm getting good reviews & ratings as much for my communication skills as for my designs, I don't think the Chinese gov't or Bambu can compete with me there! As you say, I'm more concerned about Autodesk having access to my ideas than Bambu 😁 FWIW finding your channel while separating from my previous career due to nervous breakdown was a big stepping stone towards me believing I can actually do this for a living instead of going right back into the grind working for another POS. I had a boss telling me for 15 years I was worthless, now after taking the leap I'm getting so many compliments on my work and repeat customers. And it's MY work, MY ideas! The benefits to my self-esteem and self-confidence this year have been incalculable, so thank you for your content and it's contribution to my journey! -Barry
I haven’t finished watching the video yet so forgive me if this was addressed but here goes: not everybody is designing 3D printed widgets. Some of us are designing more complicated products that will take years to develop and where first mover advantage is everything. Ask Bambu if they would comfortable using Creality cloud for their prototypes.
If I am going to send my part to an injection moulding company that I do not feel I can trust, they are just getting one part of a multi-part assembly and will know as little as possible as to what it’s for.
Some of us are just dreamers and 3D printing is a way to hold and test them. Granted, few of these are worth much but they are only worth anything if they are kept safe. I have no reason to trust a company from a country that has so blatantly tolerated, if not encouraged, the stealing of IP.
I'd be more worried about the sales rep that visits the studio or workshop and sees what you are doing and being a sales rep who by history have a reputation of being blabber mouths, chats to your competitor and share your secrets, or visa versa. Anyone who visits your website or etsy can copy and produce your idea in a few hours. So many have their succefull products stolen and copied, then appear with your marketting images but 1/10th of the cost. We forget that China makes almost all consumer products in our homes so if they really wanted to spy they could secretly embed these spy systems into out phones, tv's, toasters, microwaves, robot vacuum cleaner etc,etc,etc. They dont need to though as google, apple and sumsung already have the triopoly on spying on us.
The devil is in the detailes. Why they store the original STL file in the 3mf ? First, the company is a Chinese company and we know that big brothers wants all your information. Second, by seeing how many prints of a kind are produced I know that its a succesful product, they can sell the design to big manufacturers and flood the market with cheap copies, therefore killing the small creators, that don't have a injection molding factory in their pockets. Therefore Bambulab will be able not only to sell your design but selling it with the actual proof that it is a succesful product, by only looking at statistics. Thats low effort money for themselves and the demise as a small creator. Also industrial espionaje.
I always think it's funny that people think that you can actually go through all of these vast amount of files and like take a peating power. Just isn't there, but keep thinking that they have enough computing power to steal your files and.
I would rather pay more for your product if you would make it in the USA
Some very good points. Everyone forgets how much we rely on cloud services now days... you point these out very well. Love your videos and you approach to work. Trying my best to get my side business going as well, and i love watching your videos for inspiration/ideas. Haven't found my niche market yet, but still working on it.
Your response to concerns about Bambu Lab's excessive cloudification of basic functions amounting to: "everyone other company does it too" falls extremely flat for me. I don't like how Autodesk has my files either, they don't need them; just like Bambu Labs doesn't need my files. I don't like how google et al have my data either, but they have more legitimate reasons. Their products more often require cloud services. If I use google drive, I don't complain that google "has my data", that would be unreasonable.
However, Bambu Labs printers' features are not analogous to this. I should be able to turn off the cloud, and still transfer files directly over my LOCAL network via wifi or ethernet, as well as monitor the camera feed while on the same local area network without needing to go through WAN to a third party cloud service. It's absolutely unneeded and invasive. These are two local devices on the same network. There is zero technical reason they can't communicate with each other locally. It's like if I was in the same room with another person, and Instead of just talking to them, we both pulled out our phones and started a phone call.
WRT features like remote monitoring (away from home) etc., that's 100% understandable to only be supported by a cloud service, but it should not be so tightly coupled to other functionality that does not need to use the cloud to work. I hope that either Bambu Labs or the community will implement these software features locally, it would bring a lot of people peace of mind.
To give some justification for Autodesk having your files. They built an amazing CAD system. It's not just a 3D modeler, it's a system. It has modeling of course, but also rendering, finite element analysis, manufacturing, electronics design, animation and much more. Each one of these areas can take years to learn. Most people specialize in one area. Autodesk needs your files because they built a system for calibration. Calibration is necessary when you're creating complex designs. With the models in Autodesk's cloud, it's so easy for someone in manufacturing or FEA to view early versions of your design, while you're working on it and give you feedback. You don't end up wasting time on features they they may recommend changing. Larger designs have many parts and might have several people all needing to work with everyone's parts at the same time. Calibration creates much better designs, faster. Someone that makes some models for their 3D printer isn't what Fusion 360 was created for. But, it's great that we get to use it for that.
People who have a history of stealing designs won't do it with this product? I disagree. Gcode beats photos.
I think people see CHINA and wig out.
My issue is with how broken lan only is, it makes me wonder if some of these people are right or if bambu labs is just lazy and doesn't want to fix up lan mode.
hmmm, if you make simple 3d products, it may be trivial to copy (given what you show, it would indeed be trivial to copy your parts; their value is in the idea and meeting a need, clearly. If your product involves finite element analysis, simulation and thousands of points, difficult to reproduce organic and/or mathematically generated forms, that isnt so easy. Yes, apple does in essence have access to my conversations and IP, but they are governed by quite a lot of law and they are insured for data breach that may lead to theft. basically i think your thoughts are pretty simplistic.
Apple also has a track record or protecting my data pretty well over the course of nearly 40 years ... guess who doesnt.
Make a video on the injection molding transition and experience.
no joke, im not a pro, far from it, but 3d modeling something just off of pictures and a few mesurements is so easy and about 95% the same in most cases
Stay away from the bambulab subreddit. Those paid pumping fanboys are sitting there 24/7 to downvote any legit topic that doesn’t glorify bambu or questions them in any way.