I wrote a big research paper on this topic last year. To sum it up, quite a few have been tried. None of them really stuck and the general consensus with all of them was that the tone changed so much that it was no longer characteristic or desirable. The most significant "redesigns" that stuck were just makers adding a bunch of keys and adjusting various dimensions of the bore and tone holes. Carl Almenraeder and later the Heckel family were very influential on the German bassoon. Jean-Nicolas Savary jeune, Buffet-Crampon, and Eugène Jancourt are a few big names for the French bassoon. Here are some radical redesigns to the bassoon that either never caught on or fell out of use: Charles-Joseph and Adolphe Sax's metal bassoons Boehm system Metal bassoons made for military bands Giles Brindley's logical bassoon (an interesting attempt at a fully electronic bassoon) Sarrusophone (not a bassoon, but was intended to replace double reeds in military bands) Alongside the greatbassoon and subcontrabassoon projects that are being recorded here on UA-cam, we have also recently seen Guntram Wolf's contraforte (an alternative to the contrabassoon) and the Arthur Weisberg system. The former two are obviously still being designed and prototyped, and the latter two are still recent enough that they are seeing some use but have not fully supplanted the instruments we are used to.
@@megaman02468 In my opinion, there needs to be adjustments to the bore, tone hole size, and just less keys. I think the main problem is that the bassoon is like a drinking straw made to play bass notes.
@@tonyrod3332 More recently, Guntram Wolf made an instrument called the Bassoforte which is essentially a wooden Sarrusophone. It had absolutely no tone whatsoever and nothing remotely recognisable as a bassoon. Even though bassoons are a load of compromises all in one instrument, they will have that specific bassoon tonal character (call it 'stuffy' if you want) that defines them. Although it's good they experimented and made such an instrument, maybe to prove a point, only it's never going to replace the bassoon in an orchestral setting as we know it. There are some videos and audio of it and I can only imagine this is what Triebert's Boehm system bassoon sounded like. Search "Wolf Bassoforte" and feel free to draw your own conclusion.
As megaman and Chris P already said, the problem with redesign the Bassoon to "fix" its flaws is that you lose its unique timbre and you no longer have a real Basson. Guntram Wolf tried it with the Bassoforte and fail, if Wolf couldn't do it I don't know if anyone can. I share Richard Bobo's opinion: "the Bassoon is ok". It may not be as technically refine as other woodwings, but it is functional and its unique tone is enough to justify for its technical flaws
Coming from the saxophone side of things, this is interesting to see the same issues cropping up in the same register. The sax does have two register keys (basically from invention- Adolphe Sax originally developed the automatic double register key for an improved bass clarinet), and they're laid out in about the same places on the bore as the whisper key and the key you've opened for the vent. The issues are a little more pronounced, though, on the sax - even the lower vent doesn't really work that well for the first note of the second register (written D), so it's pretty common to vent that with the D palm key instead, and skip the register key, in slower passages.
5:11 I believe that instruments need updates... Look at the Western Concert Flute from Renassiance to now... I saw the boehm western flute transition from C foot to B foot from 2012-2018 Where some of my class mates were getting B foot flutes despite wouldn't need them, but also some open holes for the keywork... Recorders are still guilty as it gets for not adding keys to their instruments. I wished there was a book on musical instrument keywork and how to make those as I find it would be fun to make a sopranino recorder in E Fla rather F, but extend the range into Garklein range. Just for the laughs and " If got the knowledge, why not see what kind of updates can be added? "
i agree with you and some instruments do get this mentality wile some sadly don't one of the ones that got lots of updates is the of saxophones wich got keys to go from high eb to F# and b to Bb and some saxes (im referring to alto and tenor ) eventually got low a keys (which sadly died out) and the contra saxes got tubax variants (same cant be said for orchestral saxs sadly) but at the same time there is something about simple system simple instruments i love but there should be options for both simple and normal/developed instruments in my opinion
I am left handed, and would like to hold the instrument to the opposite side, pretty much like a left handed guitar player would do it. Is that wrong? Can I still get a comfortable performance?
as a left handed bari sax player i can confirm what bret newton said i can comfortably say bari sax is comfortable in my hands (pun very much intended) so are flutes and clarinets
There is the Jordan key(it's new) that will help with higher notes, but you need to get better half hole venting practice.....and better reeds. F# needs only a very very little bit of opening, as do the G and G#. My professional ear says your reed situation needs some help.....and how much you half hole. I rotate my hand to half hole so that the position stays relative static from note to note. I can't tell if you're doing that or not. I'm a professional bassoonist BTW.
As a bassoonist, I wish the instrument would get a redesign honestly, the modern bassoon is like a patchwork of quick fixes
I’m honestly surprised to have not seen any designs or plans of a “Bohem System” or “Oboe System” bassoon (or in this day a “Sax System” bassoon)
I wrote a big research paper on this topic last year. To sum it up, quite a few have been tried. None of them really stuck and the general consensus with all of them was that the tone changed so much that it was no longer characteristic or desirable. The most significant "redesigns" that stuck were just makers adding a bunch of keys and adjusting various dimensions of the bore and tone holes. Carl Almenraeder and later the Heckel family were very influential on the German bassoon. Jean-Nicolas Savary jeune, Buffet-Crampon, and Eugène Jancourt are a few big names for the French bassoon.
Here are some radical redesigns to the bassoon that either never caught on or fell out of use:
Charles-Joseph and Adolphe Sax's metal bassoons
Boehm system
Metal bassoons made for military bands
Giles Brindley's logical bassoon (an interesting attempt at a fully electronic bassoon)
Sarrusophone (not a bassoon, but was intended to replace double reeds in military bands)
Alongside the greatbassoon and subcontrabassoon projects that are being recorded here on UA-cam, we have also recently seen Guntram Wolf's contraforte (an alternative to the contrabassoon) and the Arthur Weisberg system. The former two are obviously still being designed and prototyped, and the latter two are still recent enough that they are seeing some use but have not fully supplanted the instruments we are used to.
@@megaman02468 In my opinion, there needs to be adjustments to the bore, tone hole size, and just less keys. I think the main problem is that the bassoon is like a drinking straw made to play bass notes.
@@tonyrod3332 More recently, Guntram Wolf made an instrument called the Bassoforte which is essentially a wooden Sarrusophone. It had absolutely no tone whatsoever and nothing remotely recognisable as a bassoon. Even though bassoons are a load of compromises all in one instrument, they will have that specific bassoon tonal character (call it 'stuffy' if you want) that defines them. Although it's good they experimented and made such an instrument, maybe to prove a point, only it's never going to replace the bassoon in an orchestral setting as we know it. There are some videos and audio of it and I can only imagine this is what Triebert's Boehm system bassoon sounded like. Search "Wolf Bassoforte" and feel free to draw your own conclusion.
As megaman and Chris P already said, the problem with redesign the Bassoon to "fix" its flaws is that you lose its unique timbre and you no longer have a real Basson. Guntram Wolf tried it with the Bassoforte and fail, if Wolf couldn't do it I don't know if anyone can.
I share Richard Bobo's opinion: "the Bassoon is ok".
It may not be as technically refine as other woodwings, but it is functional and its unique tone is enough to justify for its technical flaws
That’s very interesting, I also had no idea the bassoonists had to fluctuate the opening size on half holed fingerings
I see bassoon as still having a simple system with a mass amount of keywork.
“It’s a hair sharp” ohh that G’s always sharp 😆😆
I'm so damn stupid. I thought this was like a George Washington Era rifle or something
It's good to have no whisper key +half hole for those low octave notes.
Coming from the saxophone side of things, this is interesting to see the same issues cropping up in the same register. The sax does have two register keys (basically from invention- Adolphe Sax originally developed the automatic double register key for an improved bass clarinet), and they're laid out in about the same places on the bore as the whisper key and the key you've opened for the vent.
The issues are a little more pronounced, though, on the sax - even the lower vent doesn't really work that well for the first note of the second register (written D), so it's pretty common to vent that with the D palm key instead, and skip the register key, in slower passages.
Have you heard of the Jordan Key?
so cool
5:11 I believe that instruments need updates... Look at the Western Concert Flute from Renassiance to now... I saw the boehm western flute transition from C foot to B foot from 2012-2018 Where some of my class mates were getting B foot flutes despite wouldn't need them, but also some open holes for the keywork... Recorders are still guilty as it gets for not adding keys to their instruments. I wished there was a book on musical instrument keywork and how to make those as I find it would be fun to make a sopranino recorder in E Fla rather F, but extend the range into Garklein range. Just for the laughs and " If got the knowledge, why not see what kind of updates can be added? "
i agree with you and some instruments do get this mentality wile some sadly don't one of the ones that got lots of updates is the of saxophones
wich got keys to go from high eb to F# and b to Bb and some saxes (im referring to alto and tenor ) eventually got low a keys (which sadly died out) and the contra saxes got tubax variants (same cant be said for orchestral saxs sadly) but at the same time there is something about simple system simple instruments i love but there should be options for both simple and normal/developed instruments in my opinion
I am left handed, and would like to hold the instrument to the opposite side, pretty much like a left handed guitar player would do it. Is that wrong? Can I still get a comfortable performance?
Woodwinds are already left-hand dominant in their design. There's no need to redesign them.
as a left handed bari sax player i can confirm what bret newton said i can comfortably say bari sax is comfortable in my hands (pun very much intended) so are flutes and clarinets
There is the Jordan key(it's new) that will help with higher notes, but you need to get better half hole venting practice.....and better reeds. F# needs only a very very little bit of opening, as do the G and G#. My professional ear says your reed situation needs some help.....and how much you half hole. I rotate my hand to half hole so that the position stays relative static from note to note. I can't tell if you're doing that or not. I'm a professional bassoonist BTW.
I was gonna mention too 😮the Dr. Robert Jordan Key too if no one else did :-)