TOP 4 removed units - ua-cam.com/video/TlqBhNw_RRU/v-deo.html TOP 5 crazy protoss design ideas - ua-cam.com/video/fd9NnBAlHH8/v-deo.html Timecodes: 00:00 Why everybody dislikes this 00:17 Why was it introduced in the first place 01:40 Why Mothership was good 03:25 Why it was terrible 05:10 Why it was replaced with Shield Batteries
If you wanna talk broken buildings, there was that week when you could bunker drop or planetary fortress drop your opponent, creating the most chaos on the ladder
@@veilnebula2411 For a brief period of time, people found out that there was a glitch that enabled ANYTHING to be loaded into a Command Center via the storage system meant for SCVs, which included buildings for some ridiculous reason. The result was that a Command Center could drop literal PFs or loaded bunkers on top of anything as an omega dropship. While short lived, ranked matched were straight up disabled because it was that brokenly obnoxious.
Honestly, swarm hosts were more annoying to me. Msc was overpowered af and a jack of all trades but swarmhost made for the most miserable long games that often led to bleeding out
Agree, hated the SH's, it just ruined the whole state of the game and made tournaments boring. Still can't believe how long it took Blizzard to fix it.
Yeah Nydus Worm and Swarm Hosts meta even in top level GSL was sooooo tiring to watch as zerg to bleeds out protoss and terran with free units and just aim to snipe bases before they can kill the locusts. I really dislike sc2 after WoL and the direction they were going.
@@LionMagnus8 As much as I liked WoL, I think HOTS, were the top of starcraft 2(minus the unbalanced SH period). But ye, I miss the old days of WOL, when people were still experimenting.
The Core is the saddest example of a really great Unique support tool, just a one unit capable of doing so much around and give a upper hand to a race that has been dumbed down worse then todays Hollywood movies. Protoss lacked the raw power and finesse it had from SC 1 and once the Core was introduced it basically was like giving a Child a cellphone, sure now it could call, take photos, check the internet, be in touch and send messages but was far too reliant of the phone for anything and once you take it away it became useless. This is what happens when you basically allow not just a few games but a entire race to work on cheese instead of a well thought out unit and building roster.
In SC1 most of the Protoss units do not have an activated ability. Zealots, Dragoon, Archon, Scout, Observer. Reaver and Carrier only have ability to build ammo that they are rarely used in combat so they may also count. I think the rationale is that Protoss units have shields, that unit micro would grant greater results compared to other races, as you are greatly rewarded if you can keep low shield units alive or taking no hull damage during skirmishes. As you are so busy positioning your units properly they do not fit any trick at all. It is so difficult to cast spells that casters turn tides of battles and were specialized. SC2 completely changed the concept of Protoss, giving every unit an activated ability except Archon/Colossus. This caused Protoss units to become too fragile and rely on combat tricks instead.
@@unknownkw On point, there were *specialists* with abilities that can either support or cause massive damage but they were not too many while the bulk of the force was pretty chunky and hard hitting units, even late game Zealots are terrifying both as a giant wall with blades and the sheer speed which they can annihilate enemies unless against a heavy entrenchment. Dragoons even if they may be a tad slow and positioning can be finnicky with full upgrades including enhanced range they were hard hitting bastards with zealots to compliment em as real shields and thats just giving two examples. They had raw power with spellcasting, in SC2 they just feel like they had no idea who to dedicate as a warrior or some random priest with a bigger dagger.
@@unknownkw TBF, pretty much half of every unit in SC2 got some unique gimmick. The biggest losers to me was how it seemed like only Protoss had their support units nerfed , while Terran and Zerg still had extremely lethal spells, especially in Snipe, EMP, Matrix, Fungal, Abduct, Fungal. Meanwhile Psi-Storm got a lot weaker outside of your ability to spam it, and all of Arbiter's old abilities are a shadow of its former self. Only Disruptors are even close to the power of the Reaver.
So many problems that BW never had, SC2 did. This all stemmed from Blizzard messing up the balance of 3 basic units: Zealot, marine, zergling. The Zealot is supposed to be a fearsome unit that would 2-shot lings and marines. If he 2-gated proxied and you did a tech build, the game is rightfully over. Instead we got a toned down Zealot, Stalkers instead of Dragoons, damage types that didn't match up with BW...Warpgate technology which was so busted they had to nerf Protoss tier-1 to compensate... If the basic Protoss units were as powerful as they should have been, you wouldn't have needed a mothership core.
Omega-based take, been saying stuff like this for years, especially warpgate. Warpgate if not outright REMOVED should've been a Tier 3 upgrade on some sort of dedicated tech structure.
The problem with that approach was Dragoons and zealots were just obscenely broken. Look at Artanis, They buffed up his Dragoons to being portionally powerful to sc1 ones and now he needs nothing else. Stalkers being weaker than dragoons was very much intentional design goal.
LOVED the mothership core! I ONLY play protoss and that single unit got me from gold to plat single handedly lol. I miss it so much but understand why they took it out haha.
Probably true, but I remember even protss didn't want to use the stupid mothership core unit and battery was just a good replacement. Infestors were stupid tho
Protoss has been the worst (and in turn hardest) race in SC2 throughout mostly all of its history. Instead of doing something to actually make the units better so the race could compete, they added gimmicks like the core.
It's a hard race to balance in. SC2 by design in high damage and short battles to keep the game fast-paced, and Protoss is intended to be the race who does best with individual units over time; as a race design they really want to slow the game down to take advantage of their cost-efficiency. Individually their units are the strongest, and if you make them to strong they'll easily steamroller over most of the games. (And if you look at it, below the pro level Protoss is easily the race that wins the most - it's just that having top-tier macro and micro means you can counter the cost advantage and strength of the individual units.)
Right now Protoss is pretty easy for casual players like me. I’ve surpassed my main (Terran) mmr actually. As with every race Protoss has had its ups and downs throughout the games long history.
The problem is that right now Protoss still lacks their "devastating units", the one to prioritize during the fight. Terrans have the Raven that can put a colossal -2 armor on all the enemy units AND can also completely turn off eney units, they also have the Ghost that can delete the Shield of units (this basically means a -50% HP instantly for every unit of the protoss army). Zerg on the other hand have extremely replaceable yet devastating units like banelings that can oneshot the majority of the standard units. The fact is that the cost of the Protoss units dont match their power, Stalkers are way worse that marines and i bet that everyone will choose fast and overwelming lings in the place of slow Zealots that REQUIRES a mandatory upgrade to be used decently as a meat shield. When other races can go in late game (and win) with their starting units, Toss must build tons of different structures to put toghether a normal army with usually 5-6 differrent units. The numbers don't lie, very few pro players manage to play toss at a good level and their winrate is abysmal, I hope that SC2 will return to be a three-race game as soon as possible because watching toss in pro league is like watching a fight between me and Muhammad Ali, enjoyable but not that balanced.
Tbh, protoss' casters are in dire need of love. When is the last time you ever saw a forcefield that helps the protoss more than the enemy, or storm being used.
@@OldSpaghettifactory89 I'm not talking about my games, I'm talking about actual good players. They never use forcefields, and when they do, it actually hinders them more than it helps. Storms are non-existent because disruptors do the same thing but better and can't be EMP'd. Templars only exist to make archons (which are a great unit).
I played PvP back in WoL when it came out and it was literally 4gate rushes every game. Because Warpgate units tend to have high HP but low DPS the fights were dragging on until somebody could eek out a small advantage at which point the entire fight would snowball and the game would suddenly be over. It was a terrible matchup.
You could defend a 4 gate with a 3gate robo econ opener. But you had to be sure they were going to 4gate you or else you'd be behind if they weren't. Check how many times they crono'd cyber core and search for common proxy locations for pylon. If they sentry contain after your first immortal popped you'd crono warp prism, place two sentries of your own in it and just go and kill him by sentry containing them inside their own base. If they don't sentry contain, you push him out of your nat and you have the tech lead towards collossi anyway.
The dumbest most gimmicky bandaid unit ever conceived in any RTS. instead of making Protoss actually interesting mechanically, let's keep warpgate the way it is and as such balance protoss to be flimsy garbage that has one trick up it's sleeve and promote the least imaginative or remotely interesting gameplay imaginable and to cut extra corners let's add band-aid units whenever people exploit the obvious frailties of the Protoss race.
The only thing that feels a little band-aidy is the Battery Overcharge, since they needed something to help against certain all-ins, since Nexus/Pylon Overcharge was no longer a thing. It is nice in a way because you can use it even if your batteries or the natural Nexus get hit with EMP with some Marine/Ghost all-ins (just make sure you save energy on your main Nexus).
Ah yes, the recall ability moved to the Nexus. Then Blizzard was like "hey, recall is way too good at taking back a huge chunk of army and moving it where you want it to be. We're instead going to give you a HUGE reduction in radius but it's fine, we'll take 15 seconds off the cooldown so it balances out right?" And then "hey recall is way too good so we're increasing the cooldown. Increase the area again? The fuck you're talking about, it has ALWAYS been the size of a coin!"
@@skipperg4436 Zerg can mostly ignore positioning due to creep, and Nydus worm can greatly negate it. Bio and battle mech have super low mobility time, and planetary fortress means it cannot be taken down by anything short of 40 supply worth of army. Plus, this is an ability getting nerfed with the excuse that "the intended use is quick decision making on a small amount of units". Then the "quick decision making" is taken away because reasons.
@@skipperg4436 lmao. Let your templars or disruptors be slightly far forward and you lost. Didn't split your army properly to defend drop/runby and attack in the front and you lost. But what would a regular "toss is too easy" tard knew about that?
@@daikatarokamegawa542 creep isn’t like Stukov spread in Pvp matches, it can be contained. If you don’t contest the map you deserve to lose. Also Nydus worms aren’t omega worms, They take time to spawn and disgorge units, This sounds like a lack of scouting issue.
People can complain all they want. The MSC helped in giving protoss the defensive capabilities it lacked during WoL and was in dire need of. In high level play you could still pull off aggression by being smart and hitting the correct timings, especially if you were a Terran dropping units. Without the MSC Protoss would have become helpless when defending midgame timings in PvT and early cheeses in PvP. It solved far more issues than it created, by far.
People build a lot of queens not because they are overpowered, but because they are underpowered. 7 queens opener drones faster than 9 queens opener but zergs need those extra queens to defend.
@@Amoeby 5 queens? You realize we need Queens to inject AND Spread creep AND Defend right? Try holding off a hellbat marine push with five queens. LMAO. Or god forbid void rays flying around microwaving your hatcheries. Zerg has really bad early game defense options and static defense compared to Protoss and Terran. The queen is the only thing that keeps us alive in the first 5 minutes of the game.
SC2 was such a mess, it's really like they had no idea how to balance this game, so they add some units, remove others, add them again, change the abilities, and each time the balance is completely broken. In comparison SCBW only needed a few minor patches to be completely balanced.
"The whole race became reliant on just one unit and would loose without it!" *looks at Zerg and queens* Yeah no other race has that issue either, right? Riiiight?
Mothership core was broken because it nullified every rush attempt. Protoss could just skip early units and mass probes. It was so easy to use energy to kill actual units that cost minerals and gas. For me the most broken units were swarm hosts and mothership core, these two units for the longest time were so abusive.
The queen is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for Zerg being OP right now. But no one wants to acknowledge since it's a core unit that's been around since the beginning. It's tanky, it hits air, ground, can heal, cost only minerals, can throw down tumors. It just does way way too much. It's supposed to be a macro unit, and yet massing them is a viable early game defense against anything.
The mothership core was absolutely needed when it was introduced. The protoss simply had nothing like the terran or zerg when it came to mules, queens, terran walls, scans, etc. I think blizzard dropped the ball when they decided not to go with the pylon upgrade options in the alpha.
You forget about the warhound. A unit so broken Blizzard never even tried to balance it. It was only a short reign of terror in beta, but oh boy was it hated.
I remember after removing the core, every PvP game would go 2 gates opener because if you don´t go 2 gates, you would just die. Follow up with a proxy pylon, and proxy tech building, From dark shrines to robos to stargates, you name it. Any games would end before you got your 4th because it´s nearly impossible to defend your 4th if you were down 5-7 stalkers. Immortals were theoretically good against stalkers, but in reality were so trash because stalkers would just blink in and snipe them, so were disruptors. In fact, there were no Protoss units that could counter stalkers other than the stalkers themselves, not until you got a high values of carriers, but w/o upgrades they would look the same with 3/3 stalkers. Because of the warp-in mecahnic and warp prism, you offend as good as you defend, so there goes the defender advantages. While TvT and ZvZ had their own dynamics, PvP were complete shitshow. On top of that, they increased 25 minerals from 250 to 275 to build an immortal, so the matchup is even more volatile.
Jack of all trades hero unit that bandaided Protoss early game making it suddenly overpowered, that’s why we all hated it, worse of all it replaced even motherships on late game
it's almost like LARD should've re-added the Arbiter and moved warpgate tech to an arbiter tribunal for research while balancing accordingly, but LARD rarely listens to the players.
I don't hate the concept, hell there was even a warcraft mini game with a Death knight "core" and that was cool. It was just I'll adapted, and made T1 protoss completely redundant
Seems like it would also be really bad for protoss aswell, since it also means losing the mothership core, is losing the game. Just generally bad for everyone, in an RTS where you control an army
That's still kinda true for the Mothership itself, since hinging your push on it supporting your units was extremely risky as it was quite prone to being sniped.
All I want is for my mothership to be as intimidating as 4 battle cruisers. Live how the other races complain about OP Protoss but then have their own OP stuff.
Thank God protoss was nerfed, couldnt risk losing that all those precious ZvZ finals. Swarm Hosts, Queens, Vipers, Lurkers so many cool and engaging units.
E.S, What is your opinion on adepts? How they compare to reapers? Do protoss need such mobile harasser at early stage of the game,? While having death ball late game+tempest seiging ability.
Yes they do, the main issue with protoss are their expensive units because they are "strong" but usually they are overwhelmed easily on open map. In WoL era you would roam on the early game with Sentry/Zea/Stalker since the maps were smaller, a lot of choke points and the eco took longer to kick in, but since LotV the eco change and the maps made suicidal to go out with one or two stalkers to "poke" only to get (specially by Zergs) surrounded and killer. Here come the Adepts, it is a unit with retreat potential which can not only scout early (since Sentry's Hally could as well) but also not gas expensive and can do damage if needed, specially to light units like Workers and early game from all races, the nerf to the shade is what made them a lot more balanced, and I know there are terrible all in with them but basically you can all in with anything, specially protoss, at least Adepts have counter play, can be scouter easier and let Protoss get a lot of presence in the early game which sadly most people won't be using but some do and in the worst case/scenario Protoss has Recall early. Reapers on the other hand are super fragile, most Terran get 1 for scout and never touch them again, they scall extremely bad and are a high gas investment, to me it is really sad but pro players tend to mix them with Hellion openers in the early game for some pushes but they are nowhere near the skill level of a mediocre/standard player that will either not use them at all, get only 1 for scout or try a cheese with them early game; they also are so much micro intensive that most of the time you end up with a crappy macro on your base because you were trying to micro your Reapers and do damage without dying
I really hate what Blizzard did to protoss in SC2. The Mothership core was a crutch that was repeatedly used to beat balance to death. Its a real shame SC2 had so many good ideas for unit designs. But sadly many of them were ham fisted and half baked. All for the sake of creating a spectators sport. The moral of the story I guess is don't fix what isn't broke.
I would gladly trade both the Mothership and the MSC for more Archon fusion options, and maybe add some cool effect to units within the sphere of a pylon's energy field
I mean this thing makes me enter master tier first time. excellent at defense, add some more cheese capability. It give almost every benefit for protoss player like me. Has good apm but very poor decision making 😂. It gave so much another chance to me.
Amazing how Blizzard wasted no time in removing the mother ship core but never thought about removing the most OP unit in the game: widow mines. the most hated and absurd unit of all time in SC. Invisible shoots air and ground, cost almost nothing, can erase in no time your mineral line, has range, recharge for ever, burrow in no time, has good HP, can make 2 at a time, doesn t need much tech . Wow it looks more like a warcraft or diablo unit that belongs to the fantasy realm. Sc2 is a science fiction RTS right? fokk you Blizz
The core is hated, liberators, 9999999 marines in 1s random fast drops, map turn into one big mines filde and literaly any of terran units are not have more problem that fly egg who crash after air toutch it... literaly if they have problem why not block core to leave pylons range ( auto teleport to cluse nexsus who charge 4 s if enemy destroy your pylon and ship stuck) and some space around nexsus ? and give him no cost nexsus teleport to jump to other base if he cant move normal? No just delete it bcs players think it to op, players who try play protos like terran or zerg, the spame players do 10 comand centers and turn them into heavy canons and add 10000 tank. For me only mother core problem is community, after some time blizzard easy repair to strong and to weak parts of this units i hope someday one of main terran unit be delete bcs it exsist on evry builds Like heal ? what heal xd
>shield batteries required a lot more skill for positioning I never played when mothership core was around, but this makes mothership core sound absolutely beyond broken
It should come back, but maybe for the late game or in the middle of entering it, one thing cannot be denied, the mothership is irrelevant for pro players, and SC is characterized by the fact that all its units are "useful"
I miss when Medivacs could pick up already deployed Siege tanks. That made so many Toss and Zerg players mad as heck when you could drop tanks already in Siege Mode on ridges near their expansions and watch chaos ensue.
@@Appletank8 I think it still took a couple of seconds to fire when they were dropped, but they could be picked up instantly and took the entire medivac space. It took away an element that is meant to help balance them.
Im pretty sure it was not the most hated unit, it just got removed for design reasons I can guarantee that the broodlord infestor swarmhost were hated more Especially the swarmhost
The Swarm Host and the Mothership Core are two of the biggest mistakes in SC2 history. However, their existence is caused by even BIGGER mistakes made earlier on in the game's development, from before the release of the game. Blizzard was SO obsessed and hyper-focused with "streamlining" the game and making it as fresh and new as possible that they never stopped to think about what actually worked from its predecessor and why it worked the way it did.
Considering the new mama ship still kinda sucks, they didn't get this right. I don't blame them; the game doesn't lend itself to having a hero unit you can only make one of. I do miss core rushes tho 😂❤
I quit the game because of the core. As I P player I hated it so much that we basically had to rely on this every game. That and I 2 gated every single pvp and it was basically useless with the core lol.
Hots was my favourite campaign, but to me it ruined the multiplayer and killed the game. I stopped for a bit with wings of liberty multi, bought hots to get back to it and was like . . Wtf is all this crap. Sad times
The Mothership Core makes games feel like WarCraft III rather than StarCraft II. It's inclusion combined with Blizzard's bad decisions ruined the game design of large armies fighting against large armies. The abundance of janky strats makes Protoss unforgiving for new players to fight against.
Dam... blizzard nerf thr disruptor now with range. Protoss are weakass in the end game. On professional sc2 game, only two race are in the final Terran and zerge. Most protoss got eliminated by Simi final
"sob sob, in pvp protoss dont have a way to scout efficiently" Just fucking lol? Probe scouting like every one else and then the fucking observer and the fucking oracle. Protoss is litterally the race with the most advantage when it comes to scouting
It disgusted me even as a concept. So you have the greatest weapon in the protoss arsenal, a near city sized ship and then you tell me they are making it on pieces and warp it across the galaxy? Yet they still warp carriers and void rays in one piece... This was a totally weak game design.
I remember in the Beta when the MotherCore (over the Nexus) was hitting Broodlords from far away lol, what a stupid unit, I hated it when playing Protoss and even more when playing Terran, I almost stopped playing HotS and didn't come back until LotV because of how many bad design were made into the game on that period of time, I am glad LotV fixed a lot of things and the game right now is awesome to me, but I could never forget how much I hated not only playing HotS with MotherCore on it but also watching games
Actually, MSC, MS, adepts, chronoboost, tempests, carriers, stalkers, oracles, immortals, charge-zealots, shield batteries, voidrays, .... (mabye not Colossi, observers and phoenix) all of them had critical ups and downs over the last 10 years. Some were good, some were bad. But Terrans have 50 more or less minerals to pay and do the same, since 1996 ? they make T1 units and speed with stimpack, and Zerg have vision all over the map and build drones until they see whatever they want. I always loved Protoss, there were new things to explore and funny things to try. But the last Blizzcon win was 2015, and further more I dont want to evaluate the situation. Yes, in the beginning protoss might be a litte bit too strong, but only get worse and worse over so many years, not only in blizzcon titels but everywhere, is just a curse.
TOP 4 removed units - ua-cam.com/video/TlqBhNw_RRU/v-deo.html
TOP 5 crazy protoss design ideas - ua-cam.com/video/fd9NnBAlHH8/v-deo.html
Timecodes:
00:00 Why everybody dislikes this
00:17 Why was it introduced in the first place
01:40 Why Mothership was good
03:25 Why it was terrible
05:10 Why it was replaced with Shield Batteries
If you wanna talk broken buildings, there was that week when you could bunker drop or planetary fortress drop your opponent, creating the most chaos on the ladder
Funny glitch to watch though 😂
wait what?
@@veilnebula2411
For a brief period of time, people found out that there was a glitch that enabled ANYTHING to be loaded into a Command Center via the storage system meant for SCVs, which included buildings for some ridiculous reason. The result was that a Command Center could drop literal PFs or loaded bunkers on top of anything as an omega dropship.
While short lived, ranked matched were straight up disabled because it was that brokenly obnoxious.
It's wrong when Terran do it, but not Protoss...
"chaos on the ladder"
Petyr Baelish: Chaos is a Ladder.
Honestly, swarm hosts were more annoying to me. Msc was overpowered af and a jack of all trades but swarmhost made for the most miserable long games that often led to bleeding out
Don't mention that name, we don't speak about that over here.
Agree, hated the SH's, it just ruined the whole state of the game and made tournaments boring. Still can't believe how long it took Blizzard to fix it.
Yeah Nydus Worm and Swarm Hosts meta even in top level GSL was sooooo tiring to watch as zerg to bleeds out protoss and terran with free units and just aim to snipe bases before they can kill the locusts. I really dislike sc2 after WoL and the direction they were going.
Infested terrans were ridiculous aswell
@@LionMagnus8 As much as I liked WoL, I think HOTS, were the top of starcraft 2(minus the unbalanced SH period).
But ye, I miss the old days of WOL, when people were still experimenting.
The Core is the saddest example of a really great Unique support tool, just a one unit capable of doing so much around and give a upper hand to a race that has been dumbed down worse then todays Hollywood movies. Protoss lacked the raw power and finesse it had from SC 1 and once the Core was introduced it basically was like giving a Child a cellphone, sure now it could call, take photos, check the internet, be in touch and send messages but was far too reliant of the phone for anything and once you take it away it became useless. This is what happens when you basically allow not just a few games but a entire race to work on cheese instead of a well thought out unit and building roster.
In SC1 most of the Protoss units do not have an activated ability. Zealots, Dragoon, Archon, Scout, Observer. Reaver and Carrier only have ability to build ammo that they are rarely used in combat so they may also count. I think the rationale is that Protoss units have shields, that unit micro would grant greater results compared to other races, as you are greatly rewarded if you can keep low shield units alive or taking no hull damage during skirmishes. As you are so busy positioning your units properly they do not fit any trick at all. It is so difficult to cast spells that casters turn tides of battles and were specialized.
SC2 completely changed the concept of Protoss, giving every unit an activated ability except Archon/Colossus. This caused Protoss units to become too fragile and rely on combat tricks instead.
@@unknownkw On point, there were *specialists* with abilities that can either support or cause massive damage but they were not too many while the bulk of the force was pretty chunky and hard hitting units, even late game Zealots are terrifying both as a giant wall with blades and the sheer speed which they can annihilate enemies unless against a heavy entrenchment. Dragoons even if they may be a tad slow and positioning can be finnicky with full upgrades including enhanced range they were hard hitting bastards with zealots to compliment em as real shields and thats just giving two examples. They had raw power with spellcasting, in SC2 they just feel like they had no idea who to dedicate as a warrior or some random priest with a bigger dagger.
@@unknownkw TBF, pretty much half of every unit in SC2 got some unique gimmick. The biggest losers to me was how it seemed like only Protoss had their support units nerfed , while Terran and Zerg still had extremely lethal spells, especially in Snipe, EMP, Matrix, Fungal, Abduct, Fungal. Meanwhile Psi-Storm got a lot weaker outside of your ability to spam it, and all of Arbiter's old abilities are a shadow of its former self. Only Disruptors are even close to the power of the Reaver.
This 10000%, Protoss became the most gimmicky garbage imaginable, they've still never truly recovered :(
@@isaacsteele7986 have you seen games of the proffesional sc1 pros?
I didn’t mind the Mothership Core…but then again, I was in Silver league back then.
Yeah.... 🥺
So many problems that BW never had, SC2 did. This all stemmed from Blizzard messing up the balance of 3 basic units: Zealot, marine, zergling. The Zealot is supposed to be a fearsome unit that would 2-shot lings and marines. If he 2-gated proxied and you did a tech build, the game is rightfully over. Instead we got a toned down Zealot, Stalkers instead of Dragoons, damage types that didn't match up with BW...Warpgate technology which was so busted they had to nerf Protoss tier-1 to compensate...
If the basic Protoss units were as powerful as they should have been, you wouldn't have needed a mothership core.
Omega-based take, been saying stuff like this for years, especially warpgate.
Warpgate if not outright REMOVED should've been a Tier 3 upgrade on some sort of dedicated tech structure.
) to 😊
The problem with that approach was Dragoons and zealots were just obscenely broken. Look at Artanis, They buffed up his Dragoons to being portionally powerful to sc1 ones and now he needs nothing else. Stalkers being weaker than dragoons was very much intentional design goal.
LOVED the mothership core! I ONLY play protoss and that single unit got me from gold to plat single handedly lol. I miss it so much but understand why they took it out haha.
I miss cheap voidrays and early proxy stargates into rays with batteries cheese way more. This strat gave me GM in time. 😅
Nothing was more hated than the swarm hosts, but I'd put the mothership core at number 2 and wotl infestor at number 3.
From how I recall it, the infestor in WoL was far more hated.
1 good fungal decides the game... even in lategame. and it was an instant that just snare everything if i remember correctly. no projectile flying...
Way more! I would even say the Blink Stalker in the 2Bays Blink era was more annoying.
Probably true, but I remember even protss didn't want to use the stupid mothership core unit and battery was just a good replacement.
Infestors were stupid tho
@@danielexe6050no projectile - instant *8 second* snare
Hated by dumb braindead toss players.
Man I wondered why Toss was always so weak. It's cause people get mad when Toss has a chance. Sigh, at least done DT rushes still work for me
Protoss has been the worst (and in turn hardest) race in SC2 throughout mostly all of its history. Instead of doing something to actually make the units better so the race could compete, they added gimmicks like the core.
It's a hard race to balance in. SC2 by design in high damage and short battles to keep the game fast-paced, and Protoss is intended to be the race who does best with individual units over time; as a race design they really want to slow the game down to take advantage of their cost-efficiency. Individually their units are the strongest, and if you make them to strong they'll easily steamroller over most of the games. (And if you look at it, below the pro level Protoss is easily the race that wins the most - it's just that having top-tier macro and micro means you can counter the cost advantage and strength of the individual units.)
Yup, exactly.
they broke the races in general: Zerg became "Protoss", Terran became "Zerg" and Protoss became "Dogshit"
Right now Protoss is pretty easy for casual players like me. I’ve surpassed my main (Terran) mmr actually. As with every race Protoss has had its ups and downs throughout the games long history.
@@williamguy88Yeah but protoss has the most downs. Literally, the marauder wins against all gateway units dude.
The problem is that right now Protoss still lacks their "devastating units", the one to prioritize during the fight. Terrans have the Raven that can put a colossal -2 armor on all the enemy units AND can also completely turn off eney units, they also have the Ghost that can delete the Shield of units (this basically means a -50% HP instantly for every unit of the protoss army). Zerg on the other hand have extremely replaceable yet devastating units like banelings that can oneshot the majority of the standard units.
The fact is that the cost of the Protoss units dont match their power, Stalkers are way worse that marines and i bet that everyone will choose fast and overwelming lings in the place of slow Zealots that REQUIRES a mandatory upgrade to be used decently as a meat shield. When other races can go in late game (and win) with their starting units, Toss must build tons of different structures to put toghether a normal army with usually 5-6 differrent units.
The numbers don't lie, very few pro players manage to play toss at a good level and their winrate is abysmal, I hope that SC2 will return to be a three-race game as soon as possible because watching toss in pro league is like watching a fight between me and Muhammad Ali, enjoyable but not that balanced.
Tbh, protoss' casters are in dire need of love. When is the last time you ever saw a forcefield that helps the protoss more than the enemy, or storm being used.
I see those spells used regularly. Especially storm. If you don't, its your opponents skill issue.
@@OldSpaghettifactory89 I'm not talking about my games, I'm talking about actual good players. They never use forcefields, and when they do, it actually hinders them more than it helps. Storms are non-existent because disruptors do the same thing but better and can't be EMP'd. Templars only exist to make archons (which are a great unit).
@@benjaminghailane9452depend, disruptor is a sh*t unit if The enemy domine The micro units
I played PvP back in WoL when it came out and it was literally 4gate rushes every game. Because Warpgate units tend to have high HP but low DPS the fights were dragging on until somebody could eek out a small advantage at which point the entire fight would snowball and the game would suddenly be over. It was a terrible matchup.
Yeah thats what i remember back from WOL, i could only do 4gate and 3gate+1robo for like 95% of games.
You could defend a 4 gate with a 3gate robo econ opener. But you had to be sure they were going to 4gate you or else you'd be behind if they weren't. Check how many times they crono'd cyber core and search for common proxy locations for pylon. If they sentry contain after your first immortal popped you'd crono warp prism, place two sentries of your own in it and just go and kill him by sentry containing them inside their own base. If they don't sentry contain, you push him out of your nat and you have the tech lead towards collossi anyway.
Currently, I feel like, go mothership core and any other unit that can change the stale game. And the state of protoss overall.
You could replace most instances of "mothership core" in the script with "queen" and it would be practically the same script.
shhh don't tell these Zerg players that they have a unit stronger than the stalker, they'll cry
The dumbest most gimmicky bandaid unit ever conceived in any RTS.
instead of making Protoss actually interesting mechanically, let's keep warpgate the way it is and as such balance protoss to be flimsy garbage that has one trick up it's sleeve and promote the least imaginative or remotely interesting gameplay imaginable and to cut extra corners let's add band-aid units whenever people exploit the obvious frailties of the Protoss race.
Shield batteries are great, and they're also a great callback to the first game!
The only thing that feels a little band-aidy is the Battery Overcharge, since they needed something to help against certain all-ins, since Nexus/Pylon Overcharge was no longer a thing. It is nice in a way because you can use it even if your batteries or the natural Nexus get hit with EMP with some Marine/Ghost all-ins (just make sure you save energy on your main Nexus).
@@WaterCranede igual modo no podrás porque el emp afecta el nexo TMB. Eso sí, revisa con obs los ataques
Ah yes, the recall ability moved to the Nexus.
Then Blizzard was like "hey, recall is way too good at taking back a huge chunk of army and moving it where you want it to be. We're instead going to give you a HUGE reduction in radius but it's fine, we'll take 15 seconds off the cooldown so it balances out right?"
And then "hey recall is way too good so we're increasing the cooldown. Increase the area again? The fuck you're talking about, it has ALWAYS been the size of a coin!"
Why they decided not to add Arbiters back, I'll never know.
Imagine being the only race that don't need to care about army positioning due to having recall and whining about that? xD
@@skipperg4436
Zerg can mostly ignore positioning due to creep, and Nydus worm can greatly negate it. Bio and battle mech have super low mobility time, and planetary fortress means it cannot be taken down by anything short of 40 supply worth of army.
Plus, this is an ability getting nerfed with the excuse that "the intended use is quick decision making on a small amount of units". Then the "quick decision making" is taken away because reasons.
@@skipperg4436 lmao. Let your templars or disruptors be slightly far forward and you lost. Didn't split your army properly to defend drop/runby and attack in the front and you lost. But what would a regular "toss is too easy" tard knew about that?
@@daikatarokamegawa542 creep isn’t like Stukov spread in Pvp matches, it can be contained. If you don’t contest the map you deserve to lose. Also Nydus worms aren’t omega worms, They take time to spawn and disgorge units, This sounds like a lack of scouting issue.
People can complain all they want.
The MSC helped in giving protoss the defensive capabilities it lacked during WoL and was in dire need of.
In high level play you could still pull off aggression by being smart and hitting the correct timings, especially if you were a Terran dropping units.
Without the MSC Protoss would have become helpless when defending midgame timings in PvT and early cheeses in PvP.
It solved far more issues than it created, by far.
Zerg queen is 100 times worse than MC ever was but blizzard couldn't admit they messed up by letting the zeeg mass produce them.
Exactly. I think it would be better if there was a limit for the amount of queens zerg can build. I'd say something like 5 is ok.
People build a lot of queens not because they are overpowered, but because they are underpowered. 7 queens opener drones faster than 9 queens opener but zergs need those extra queens to defend.
@@Amoeby 5 queens? You realize we need Queens to inject AND Spread creep AND Defend right? Try holding off a hellbat marine push with five queens. LMAO. Or god forbid void rays flying around microwaving your hatcheries. Zerg has really bad early game defense options and static defense compared to Protoss and Terran. The queen is the only thing that keeps us alive in the first 5 minutes of the game.
@@shabobfox If you are talking macro, sure, and even then it depends. Queens for their cost are absurdly good units.
You know what, i want arbiters back. Wont mind if we trade ms for them
based.
The mothership is basically arbiter at home but more expensive
SC2 was such a mess, it's really like they had no idea how to balance this game, so they add some units, remove others, add them again, change the abilities, and each time the balance is completely broken. In comparison SCBW only needed a few minor patches to be completely balanced.
"The whole race became reliant on just one unit and would loose without it!"
*looks at Zerg and queens*
Yeah no other race has that issue either, right? Riiiight?
Mothership core was broken because it nullified every rush attempt. Protoss could just skip early units and mass probes. It was so easy to use energy to kill actual units that cost minerals and gas. For me the most broken units were swarm hosts and mothership core, these two units for the longest time were so abusive.
Hot take: about half the excuses of the MSC apply to the queen.
True but Queens don't tend to be flying over your base and flying overall...
@@Lanzetsu very true they don't fly, they just waltz in cause it's actually their base and you aren't supposed to play.
@@curtiswilkerson8489 Seems more like a skill issue to me
The queen is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for Zerg being OP right now. But no one wants to acknowledge since it's a core unit that's been around since the beginning. It's tanky, it hits air, ground, can heal, cost only minerals, can throw down tumors. It just does way way too much. It's supposed to be a macro unit, and yet massing them is a viable early game defense against anything.
@@videoboysayscube Zergs so op finals were TvT and most final games were TvT clearly zergs are op
The mothership core was absolutely needed when it was introduced. The protoss simply had nothing like the terran or zerg when it came to mules, queens, terran walls, scans, etc.
I think blizzard dropped the ball when they decided not to go with the pylon upgrade options in the alpha.
You forget about the warhound. A unit so broken Blizzard never even tried to balance it. It was only a short reign of terror in beta, but oh boy was it hated.
I remember after removing the core, every PvP game would go 2 gates opener because if you don´t go 2 gates, you would just die. Follow up with a proxy pylon, and proxy tech building, From dark shrines to robos to stargates, you name it. Any games would end before you got your 4th because it´s nearly impossible to defend your 4th if you were down 5-7 stalkers. Immortals were theoretically good against stalkers, but in reality were so trash because stalkers would just blink in and snipe them, so were disruptors. In fact, there were no Protoss units that could counter stalkers other than the stalkers themselves, not until you got a high values of carriers, but w/o upgrades they would look the same with 3/3 stalkers. Because of the warp-in mecahnic and warp prism, you offend as good as you defend, so there goes the defender advantages. While TvT and ZvZ had their own dynamics, PvP were complete shitshow. On top of that, they increased 25 minerals from 250 to 275 to build an immortal, so the matchup is even more volatile.
Jack of all trades hero unit that bandaided Protoss early game making it suddenly overpowered, that’s why we all hated it, worse of all it replaced even motherships on late game
it's almost like LARD should've re-added the Arbiter and moved warpgate tech to an arbiter tribunal for research while balancing accordingly, but LARD rarely listens to the players.
tbf, Motherships barely do anything before being sniped on the best of days.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 who's lard ?
@@Appletank8 aka -400/-400
I don't hate the concept, hell there was even a warcraft mini game with a Death knight "core" and that was cool. It was just I'll adapted, and made T1 protoss completely redundant
Perhaps you should make the video of Oracle change through the history of SC2
Seems like it would also be really bad for protoss aswell, since it also means losing the mothership core, is losing the game.
Just generally bad for everyone, in an RTS where you control an army
That's still kinda true for the Mothership itself, since hinging your push on it supporting your units was extremely risky as it was quite prone to being sniped.
@@Appletank8 Both the MS and MSC are bad units.
Arbiter master race FTW
All I want is for my mothership to be as intimidating as 4 battle cruisers. Live how the other races complain about OP Protoss but then have their own OP stuff.
Thank God protoss was nerfed, couldnt risk losing that all those precious ZvZ finals. Swarm Hosts, Queens, Vipers, Lurkers so many cool and engaging units.
E.S, What is your opinion on adepts? How they compare to reapers? Do protoss need such mobile harasser at early stage of the game,? While having death ball late game+tempest seiging ability.
Yes they do, the main issue with protoss are their expensive units because they are "strong" but usually they are overwhelmed easily on open map. In WoL era you would roam on the early game with Sentry/Zea/Stalker since the maps were smaller, a lot of choke points and the eco took longer to kick in, but since LotV the eco change and the maps made suicidal to go out with one or two stalkers to "poke" only to get (specially by Zergs) surrounded and killer. Here come the Adepts, it is a unit with retreat potential which can not only scout early (since Sentry's Hally could as well) but also not gas expensive and can do damage if needed, specially to light units like Workers and early game from all races, the nerf to the shade is what made them a lot more balanced, and I know there are terrible all in with them but basically you can all in with anything, specially protoss, at least Adepts have counter play, can be scouter easier and let Protoss get a lot of presence in the early game which sadly most people won't be using but some do and in the worst case/scenario Protoss has Recall early.
Reapers on the other hand are super fragile, most Terran get 1 for scout and never touch them again, they scall extremely bad and are a high gas investment, to me it is really sad but pro players tend to mix them with Hellion openers in the early game for some pushes but they are nowhere near the skill level of a mediocre/standard player that will either not use them at all, get only 1 for scout or try a cheese with them early game; they also are so much micro intensive that most of the time you end up with a crappy macro on your base because you were trying to micro your Reapers and do damage without dying
Adepts are balanced. Reapers could use some kind of change to give them utility beyond the early game but I'm not sure how they'd go about that.
@@Burt1038 Maybe a buff in The build infantery (When The Arsenal are unlocked) where The reaper got a +10 damage with ligth units.
I really hate what Blizzard did to protoss in SC2. The Mothership core was a crutch that was repeatedly used to beat balance to death. Its a real shame SC2 had so many good ideas for unit designs. But sadly many of them were ham fisted and half baked. All for the sake of creating a spectators sport. The moral of the story I guess is don't fix what isn't broke.
I would gladly trade both the Mothership and the MSC for more Archon fusion options, and maybe add some cool effect to units within the sphere of a pylon's energy field
OP is a zerg player
Swarm host is the most hated unit
The next is the Queen
I mean this thing makes me enter master tier first time. excellent at defense, add some more cheese capability.
It give almost every benefit for protoss player like me. Has good apm but very poor decision making 😂. It gave so much another chance to me.
Amazing how Blizzard wasted no time in removing the mother ship core but never thought about removing the most OP unit in the game: widow mines. the most hated and absurd unit of all time in SC.
Invisible shoots air and ground, cost almost nothing, can erase in no time your mineral line, has range, recharge for ever, burrow in no time, has good HP, can make 2 at a time, doesn t need much tech . Wow it looks more like a warcraft or diablo unit that belongs to the fantasy realm. Sc2 is a science fiction RTS right? fokk you Blizz
The core is hated, liberators, 9999999 marines in 1s random fast drops, map turn into one big mines filde and literaly any of terran units are not have more problem that fly egg who crash after air toutch it... literaly if they have problem why not block core to leave pylons range ( auto teleport to cluse nexsus who charge 4 s if enemy destroy your pylon and ship stuck) and some space around nexsus ? and give him no cost nexsus teleport to jump to other base if he cant move normal? No just delete it bcs players think it to op, players who try play protos like terran or zerg, the spame players do 10 comand centers and turn them into heavy canons and add 10000 tank. For me only mother core problem is community, after some time blizzard easy repair to strong and to weak parts of this units i hope someday one of main terran unit be delete bcs it exsist on evry builds Like heal ? what heal xd
>shield batteries required a lot more skill for positioning
I never played when mothership core was around, but this makes mothership core sound absolutely beyond broken
I miss sieged tank drop.
Mothership core was introduced because Blizzard REFUSED for years to insert a shield battery.
It should come back, but maybe for the late game or in the middle of entering it, one thing cannot be denied, the mothership is irrelevant for pro players, and SC is characterized by the fact that all its units are "useful"
TLDR: Mothership Core should have been divided into (at least) 3 different units, instead of one.
I miss when Medivacs could pick up already deployed Siege tanks. That made so many Toss and Zerg players mad as heck when you could drop tanks already in Siege Mode on ridges near their expansions and watch chaos ensue.
IIRC they could only pick up in Siege mode, when dropped back out they were back in Tank mode. Was it dropped out as Siege mode initially?
@@Appletank8 yeah, I think there was a time where you could pick up tanks in siege mode and drop them in siege mode
@@markrose8440 That sounds a bit broken. wow
@@Appletank8 I think it still took a couple of seconds to fire when they were dropped, but they could be picked up instantly and took the entire medivac space. It took away an element that is meant to help balance them.
@@Appletank8 It was picked up and dropped down in seige mode. I remember there was a custom map to practice tankivac.
Im pretty sure it was not the most hated unit, it just got removed for design reasons
I can guarantee that the broodlord infestor swarmhost were hated more
Especially the swarmhost
What timeline am I living in, where the object of this video is not "Swarm hosts". And i played zerg back then.
There was a video about that too😅
The Swarm Host and the Mothership Core are two of the biggest mistakes in SC2 history. However, their existence is caused by even BIGGER mistakes made earlier on in the game's development, from before the release of the game. Blizzard was SO obsessed and hyper-focused with "streamlining" the game and making it as fresh and new as possible that they never stopped to think about what actually worked from its predecessor and why it worked the way it did.
Considering the new mama ship still kinda sucks, they didn't get this right. I don't blame them; the game doesn't lend itself to having a hero unit you can only make one of.
I do miss core rushes tho 😂❤
Select's stream was a great inclusion :)
I like how everyone just hates protos players
That unit made me stop playing.
Same-ish. Quit before mothership core came out but seeing it made me not want to get back into SC2
Well SC EVO complete can return the M.Core for the SC1 protoss factions 😁.
4:59 Yooooo, is that a JaKaTaKTV clip?
I'm so sad I started to play sc2 after mommyship core was removed from the game.
Agreed! and everybody wants Heroes in their RTS games...
I quit the game because of the core. As I P player I hated it so much that we basically had to rely on this every game. That and I 2 gated every single pvp and it was basically useless with the core lol.
so great to see day9!
such a sweet man
Hots was my favourite campaign, but to me it ruined the multiplayer and killed the game. I stopped for a bit with wings of liberty multi, bought hots to get back to it and was like . . Wtf is all this crap. Sad times
1:25 music name please
The Mothership Core makes games feel like WarCraft III rather than StarCraft II. It's inclusion combined with Blizzard's bad decisions ruined the game design of large armies fighting against large armies.
The abundance of janky strats makes Protoss unforgiving for new players to fight against.
"Warning strong language" - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SUP SON
And now...Protoss is just pathetically weak...nerfed into oblivion
idk man swarm hosts i think edge out the core
Man does anyone remember seiged tanks drops?
Gets rid of overlords early with stalker, and you can easily blink unto high grounds with stalkers, literally stalker DLC
not sure if sb is really much better than core.
but it's interesting how players always find things they can exploit.
Fake news, I loved it! Same with Hellbat drops and picking up sieged tanks
this " warning strong language" THE FUCK WHERE WE ARE???
I mained protoss and never built this. idk why I was stuck gold tho
Thanks for the video!
And now Protoss has ZERO early game options that aren't cheese.
Dam... blizzard nerf thr disruptor now with range. Protoss are weakass in the end game. On professional sc2 game, only two race are in the final Terran and zerge. Most protoss got eliminated by Simi final
I miss the MSC but I would as a toss.
I'd take a MSC over shield batteries any day
bring it back!
The pylon rushes were what made it too op
Fantastic as always!
Brood War will always be superior
Widow mine and baneling are the most hated
Спасибо за интересную историю)😊
"sob sob, in pvp protoss dont have a way to scout efficiently"
Just fucking lol?
Probe scouting like every one else and then the fucking observer and the fucking oracle.
Protoss is litterally the race with the most advantage when it comes to scouting
Without it, game became more boring, why not just remove Zerg and Terran so it is completely balanced.
wow so many peopel have such a wrong opinion about it the core was love the batterie just hate
I sort of miss the little guy
Don't use notification sounds in your videos
It disgusted me even as a concept. So you have the greatest weapon in the protoss arsenal, a near city sized ship and then you tell me they are making it on pieces and warp it across the galaxy? Yet they still warp carriers and void rays in one piece... This was a totally weak game design.
And people still complain that this race or that race is imba blah blah blah :)
Cutest unit in the game thou
no such thing as hate or dislix or angrx or sanex or etc, otherx doesn tmatter, selfx perfx any nmw, do any nmw s perfx, idts
1:25 - The peepee match-up... just about sums it up!
I say swarm host was
I remember in the Beta when the MotherCore (over the Nexus) was hitting Broodlords from far away lol, what a stupid unit, I hated it when playing Protoss and even more when playing Terran, I almost stopped playing HotS and didn't come back until LotV because of how many bad design were made into the game on that period of time, I am glad LotV fixed a lot of things and the game right now is awesome to me, but I could never forget how much I hated not only playing HotS with MotherCore on it but also watching games
U missssssssss the MS core.. 😢
Actually, MSC, MS, adepts, chronoboost, tempests, carriers, stalkers, oracles, immortals, charge-zealots, shield batteries, voidrays, .... (mabye not Colossi, observers and phoenix) all of them had critical ups and downs over the last 10 years.
Some were good, some were bad.
But Terrans have 50 more or less minerals to pay and do the same, since 1996 ? they make T1 units and speed with stimpack, and Zerg have vision all over the map and build drones until they see whatever they want.
I always loved Protoss, there were new things to explore and funny things to try. But the last Blizzcon win was 2015, and further more I dont want to evaluate the situation. Yes, in the beginning protoss might be a litte bit too strong, but only get worse and worse over so many years, not only in blizzcon titels but everywhere, is just a curse.
Colossi used to do normal damage, now it only has bonuses to light, and the generalist splash damage role moved to Disruptor.
Hated cuz it was BASED
love your videos ❤❤
Thank you!