So glad you touched on the methane problem. Personally I think it is wrong to give a cow something that will stop it farting. It is natural and we should not interfere with nature. Just my opinion.
Living in Australia I can't say I'd heard of Patrick Holden, but what a fantastic interview! He made an awful lot of sense. I have a feeling that this is one of those videos I'll need to watch a few times and suggest to many opinionated but poorly educated friends.
I'm sharing it with other podcasters as well as friends. Huw / Patrick you need to contact the Carbon Cowboys/ Roots So Deep you Tube channel. Their documentary is 15 years of work & science working with ranchers across US and now spreading to S Africa/ NZ/ Australia. They Recently interviewed James Rebank who is doing regen ag in Cumbria. One of their specialists Allen Williams visited James's farm & looked at his biodiversity & soil& numbers of species of plants. animals& birds. Rebank would be another great interviewee.
This video brought back fond memories of growing up on a small family dairy in the 1950's. Every morning we would take the filled milk cans out to the road where they were placed in a concrete tank filled with cool water. The milk truck would drive by, pick up the milk cans, and leave an equal number of cleaned empty cans for us to fill.
Huw, this is a fantastic interview. Patrick Holden is the foremost authority on proper farming. If we could see the implementation of the solutions he recommends we could see many of the problems society faces solved. Please interview him again, you and he clearly have a great rapport. Thank you.
I’ve watched your videos for years Huw. I’ve always enjoys them from a practical point of view and what I can learn from them but these interviews you’re doing are another level of brilliance. You’re bringing to the fore the people who can save us from ourselves and the big money businesses who have pushed our natural world and our health to the worst place they’ve ever been. I’ve watched them all and am both fascinated and have been given some hope for the future from them. You’re showing why small screen UA-camrs are important and showing what they can do that the national media sources can’t. Very, very well done and thank you.
Best chat I have seen between two people in a long time. Dropping pearls of wisdom so fast it was hard to keep up at times. This will be rewatched at a later date. Thank you both, and the team at Regenerative Media.
I take your point that if beef is produced regeneratively then it can help sequester carbon. I reluctantly became vegetarian not just because of carbon emissions from meat production but the huge damage it is doing to nature, in terms of biodiversity and water pollution. Most rainforest is cleared for livestock production or to grow soy for animal feed. We cleared our forests centuries ago for agriculture and the vast number of farms are not farming in an agroecological way. So if I or most people go to the supermarket the likelihood is they will not be eating regeneratively farmed meat. Maybe someday in the future all meat and dairy production in the UK will switch to regeneratively produced but I suspect that the yields would be lower, how much meat in other parts of the world can be produced regeneratively. I doubt it is enough to feed the growing appetite for meat and dairy globally. Also is it OK to cut down rainforest or prevent some level.of rewilding in nature depleted countries like the UK in order to continue to eat as much meat and dairy as we currently do. Also where will we grow the veg etc if we continue to give up all the agricultural land to meat production which to me is a luxury product that should probably be consumed at most once or twice a week or at Xmas and birthdays. There is more to the harm caused by livestock than just carbon emissions. You can add flooding to the list as well until we switch to 100% regenerative ag. There is also a lot of pretend regenerative livestock productionnas well where they are not building the soil and have just jumped on the bandwagon without understanding what it actually is. And as there is no regulation on what is and isn't regenerative the only way you could truly know is if you knew the farm and their practices. So for now until we have huge reform in how livestock is reared here and globally then the safest thing to do if you care about nature and our ecosystems is avoid eating it unless you are absolutely sure about how it has been produced and even then you will be very limited in places where you can source it. It will also be very expensive which is probably the true cost of rearing meat.
We purchased meat from Grass Valley regenerative farm in Missoula Montana U.S. it was the best meat I've ever eaten. They are restoring soil and human health, and bringing the pleasure and beauty of true artisanal food back to the table.
Interesting to note Patrick acknowledging that the hillsides on which he farms would revert to temperate rainforest if not grazed - a habitat that is tinkering on the brink of extinction in the UK and globally so rare. We can only imagine how many species could thrive in a fully restored celtic rainforest, and the immense benefits to carbon sequestration, and flood protection that this could bring. To say that the small amount of food produced on this land justifies what it is actually preventing is rather misleading. In domesticating and farming animals, we have sadly wiped out every apex predator like the wolf in this country, to instead take their place, and kill our domesticated prey. If livestock farmers are still insistent on cultivating hillsides, perhaps they can grow broadleaf forests to supply timber on a coppicing cycle, or fruits or nuts, or medicinal tree leaves, the possibilities are endless! All it requires is to think outside of the orthodoxy of animal farming. It seems to me that we are all desperate to continue killing animals, giving them a "good life" whilst packing them off to slaughter in the ultimate act of betrayal. No doubt, the impacts on mental health of slaughterhouse workers is also something we rarely consider. However, as long as we continue to eat animals, someone must endure the mental agony of taking life day in and day out.
What an amazing interview!! I look forward to seeing where you both go from here! You are doing a good work! Farmers are healthcare workers. 😊 A balanced diet is so important. I was a vegetarian for years. I cut eggs out of my diet because they were so high in cholesterol. Five years later, I was diagnosed with osteoporosis and told my bones were demineralizing. The doctor said I was low in Vitamin D which is necessary for your body to absorb Calcium. I practically lived in my garden and had lots of exposure to the sun. How could I be low on Vitamin D? I found out it was cholesterol that helps our bodies absorb Vitamin D so we can absorb calcium. We need animal fat to have a healthy diet.
An absolutely great discussion! I am a few years older than Patrick Holden, but of the same generation. My farming/gardening very well parallels his, and love mentoring young persons to pass on the love of working with nature.
Fantastic conversation. Patrick is so knowledgeable and open and these conversations are showing us the best of you, Huw - passionate and strategic about the bigger picture and the future of food beyond gardening. I'd like to add that when discussing meat v's plant based diets, we have to recognise that many people go plant based primarily due to the animal welfare, rather than environmental or health aspects. We are relatively ethical in the UK, but, it is hard to ignore the extent to which animals feel stress and fear. Local slaughter houses have closed and animals often have to travel miles before ever entering the slaughterhouse. Is there a need to bring back and subsidise local and also (well and tightly regulated) mobile slaughter outfits? You touched on distribution issues too. So many questions to cogitate!
That is incredibly kind of you, thank you! That is a very true point and a whole additional conversation to include. The Sustainable Food Trust have done a huge amount of work exploring ideas such as mobile slaughterhouses etc, and more work is being done. Regulations, as you mentioned, are the greatest barrier.
Huw, the interviews you are sharing are so important. It's so informative to hear what the farmers at the heart of food production really think and experience. Some if it is very deep stuff but I am so glad to at least be able to hear the reality of farming. Look forward to many more interviews. Thank you. 😊
Thoroughly enjoyed this convo - A massive amount of very poignant tops covered with great info and view points shared - defo helped us to look at a few topics through a slightly different lens.. especially the methane points, with info like this not being brought clearly enough into the public eye & governments etc NOT admiting when they have gotten something wrong we (the public) have no freedom to make informed choices ... my view on most things is that transparency is key ... and if ALL of the information is put out there, we can make decissions based on real info, rather than what is being hiden from us! One of my fav expressions that I like to use whenever possible is "Vote with you £££ - it is the most powerful voice we have" And what Patrick said at the end about healthy herds is brilliant in my humble opinion too... The way animals are raised (in the main stream system) is one of the main reason why I stopped eating meat and one of the main things I feel is likely responsible for any negative health impacts (along with processing or volume of course). Overall if we could just step our farming/food consumstion/food system back a mear 50 years, similar it how Patrick was saying about the 3000 smaller farms/milk churns, we coud fix so many of the issues that have been created in our current food system/farming model. Breaking boundaries as always Huw - LOVE IT - Thank you. 💚✌🌿 Sorry very long comment!!! 🤣 Written out of pure inspiration & hope 🙏
At the moment 85% of meat animals in the UK are confined....eating grain and causing pollution and huge Greenhouse emissions...so...at present ...NOT eating so much meat is environmentally desirable...I personally only eat grass-fed or pasture-raised organic meat ......and the actual number of factory farms in the UK is increasing . More suffering, more pollution, more crap food...not less.........Most farmers are only interested in money...i am part of the Regen Ag and Permaculture movement..but the amount of food produced this way is tiny....and Huw is correct ..rewilding is just a con for rich landowners to get public funds and keep people off their land
The number is vastly skewed because of chickens, however there should be no confined animal rearing at all. And grains are terrible for climate, soil, etc too. I think what Patrick is getting at is voting with your wallet, by buying more from smaller scale Regen farms etc, we create more demand to encourage other farms to transition to and adopt that model, hence propelling change.
I think the idea that grazing cattle can sequester carbon on a long term basis has been roundly debunked. If you're starting with very carbon poor soil you get good results in the first few years of regen grazing but after that it plateaus and you stop sequestering more carbon. Also, why not use geese instead of ruminants? Geese live of grass, produce highly nutritious food and don't emit methane.
Actually the better option would be to integrate agroforestry systems with trees and pasture for cattle. Most grasses grow better under partial shade and provide prolonged grazing opportunities, plus you grow the trees leading to multiple benefits. Also if you are doing a rotation with arable, cropping, and pasture then cattle can provide much of the fertility needs for the veg. Geese absolutely can work, but they would just need a different agroforestry system.
@regenmediaofficial interested in why you think geese would need a different agroforestry system? I currently run beef cattle in a silvopasture system but am considering geese instead. I can't see any reason they wouldn't work within my 20m tree row spacing. I think the main reason people don't do geese is there isn't much of a market, but if we truly care about the environment and understand the urgency we can't let that stop us.
@@FelixWattsman I am so into the idea of geese and is something I too am looking at integrating (Huw here) - I think geese can be more beneficial as they don't have the danger of eating bark etc. Coppice would make so much sense, and orchard too, not sure there would be any point in having rows of trees planted in the same way you would for cattle. I'm super keen to try an open up geese to wider public appeal - perhaps worth a chat about? Email me: huw (at) regenerative.media
Grazing can indeed sequester carbon on a long term basis - even if there is a high baseline (i.e. not poor soil). There was a study done a while back called 'Grazed and Confused' which is what people are often quoting when they raise the point around soils becoming saturated. There were flaws with this study. All the studies that talk of soils being saturated are referring to mineral organic matter saturation rather than particulate organic matter. Particulate organic matter has no limit - and 50% of it is carbon. With the correct grazing management, soils can sequester carbon year on year with no end point. Big gains can be made by extending the rest periods of pasture, allowing grass to get long and therefore rooting depth to increase. Deeper roots access new layers for carbon to be laid down.
I'm nervous for multiple other things that he might do. He may have good ideas on several topics, but probably not everything he'll be responsible for.
There's a difference between meat animals/fish being raised by corporations on meat farms and feedlots and meat animals living healthily out on prairies. Meat animals living out on the prairies and truly free range are indeed sustainable and healthy for the environment. But the rest of the nonsense about how taxes do and don't work when you have mega corporations buying everything up, especially in the US, isn't really well thought out. I'm a retired economist for a global firm who moved out to the high plains out west in the US. Everybody thinks they know what's best for everybody else. They don't. People buy meat from corporate Farms because it's cheaper. It's cheaper for a reason. And people throw almost half of their food away. I think it's important to address the level of overconsumption and waste along with raising meat animals in a sustainable and humane and healthy way for all life.
That was a wonderful discussion. It's a shame we can't go back to mixed farms with no artificial fertilisers and only muck put on the land. And bringing people back to the land, only we can never go back, can we?
Thanks for the analysis! A bit off-topic, but I wanted to ask: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
I agree eating is the way out. I always wish that we could get more geeese, duck, and sheep at least in USA market. We are over beef here. Lots of young people over look sheep and goats. Duck and Geese here even though sheep, duck, and geese at least herd well. Correct Markets and doing it hala will get the sheep and goats flying. Lots of time we are trying to sell steak and potatoes to people who are swimming in steak and potatoes. It's currenting destroying meduim and small farms. And it would allow them to unplug from the cattle markets that are frankly in the USA monopolies. But it takes a lot to notice markets that are ignored.
First of all, this format works. You discuss topics in conversation. It doesn't feel like a forced interview. This is an open minded discussion between people. The thing I most got from this video is the idea that people need to be more aware when their food comes from. Beef is thumbnail topic. Beef as part of a sustainable diet? The answer is "yes, but..." And you need to listen to why their answer is yes. They said the exact thing in the video. "Don't just read the headlines", because they will mislead people. Going to a fast food place and eat more unltra processed beef is not what is implied with the thumbnail. People need to learn where food comes from and how it is produced. Patrick Holden talks about the difference between small farming and industrial scale farming. There is the difference. They discuss why small farming practices should be upscaled instead of all becoming industrial farms. There is a role there for governments to provide the carrots and sticks to guide farmers in the right direction, but this needs to be done by people who know how farming works and which 'solutions' can actually work counterproductive. Which crops can be grown locally is also an important issue they discuss.
Hi Huw, I have been following you for a long time and have a lot of respect for you. I’m not sure if you removed my other comment or it’s sitting “in review”, but I think it’s important to share alternative opinions too. I hope you can publish it still?
I haven't removed any comment. I've checked the held for review section and there is nothing there either! Really sorry as really want to hear what you have to say!
@ strange. It was there for a moment and then it just disappeared. It’s too long for me to rewrite. Can I recommend you read an Oxford study by Joseph Poore which was and still probably is the most comprehensive study into food globally and its environmental impacts. He was completely impartial and all his data was based on real science. If you don’t want to read the whole thing then just read the final summary. It’s called: Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers. Mitigation through consumers is the best chapter to read.
I wonder why we don't eat more lamb, mutton, kid and goat meat. By grazing in outbacks, they take up much less arable land than cows. And I think it's delicious, much better than beef if you ask me. Healthier too.
The overgrazing/unmanaged grazing of animals in vast areas, coupled with a lack of natural predators has caused much of the desertification we have today. This includes the green deserts in Britain. Mutton is one of my favourites too, but cows are much hardier to weather the outdoors through the year here in UK. That's why every sustainable diet changes based on geographical context
@@regenmediaofficial Yes, context is everything. Too much of anything is not good. Here in Norway we have the opposite problem, with overgrowth of our previously very biodiverse cultural landscape. It needs to be kept open with grazing and meadow management. We also have vast mountains where there's little risk of overgrazing. We do have natural predators, so one really should use old breeds that are more robust and stand together against predator attacks. These days, sheep farmers use white sheep from the UK because they have higher yields, but many of them die because they're so weak and stupid, easy prey for predators.
Is Parick really correct in saying that the farm inherirance tax is good for small farmers? Dont the large landowners have all the advice to avoid death duties ? The people least likely to have good advice are the small scale farmers.
Elon Musk was on Joe Rogan Experience. At 9:10 Elon: "I did switch to like steak and eggs for breakfast and I found that's like a power up." At 9:40 Joe: "People dismiss this whole carnivore diet thing because in our heads because there's a lot of propagandists that animal agriculture is the number one contributor to global warming." Elon: "Yeah, it's rubbish" At 10:05 Elon: "The animals are not going to make any difference to global warming"
The only reason people listen to Elon Musk is because he's so rich. And anybody who wants to listen to 3 hours of Joe Rogan go on and on can have at it. Maybe find some better quality people to follow.
@@ArtemisWithTheSilverBow really worth listening to any long form conversation versus a headline. Trump and Vance for example, a conversation that is unedited that's that long is hard to hide behind
Sadly George doesn't need to, because none of the points he regularly makes were addressed in this interview. Huw, if I can be critical for a second, I think you failed to ask any of the pertinent questions that would actually make us better informed about grass fed beef, and hopefully you'll try, in future videos, to push back a little, even just in the role of devil's advocate. There were a couple of red flags in this interview that I felt deserved a lot more thought, and perhaps you could ask in your next interview with Patrick? He mentioned that the land would revert to temperate rainforest if left, and that is a hugely diverse form of landscape that could easily be considered more vital than land for beef. There are likely many forms of agriculture (or gardening!) that could take place in that environment whilst allowing for rainforest to take hold once again (as evidenced by Amazon populations prior to industrial agriculture). However, we could assume that Patrick was referring to grass fed beef in other areas in the UK that could be more appropriate (frustrating references to bison are irrelevant to the UK), so his points still hold weight. Toward the end of the conversation, he moved from discussing grass fed beef to MAINLY grass fed beef. The word mainly can often do a lot of heavy lifting, yet it's here we can gather whether something is sustainable, regenerative or otherwise. I have a neighbour who has grass fed beef who over-winters indoors and supplements hay with imported soy. I have another neighbour who has highland cows and they are grass fed outside year round with hay supplement only, but at a far lower density. The former has any claim to being regenerative (he doesn't claim this!) nulled by not including the land that the soy was grown on in his calculations. The latter is regenerative but stocking densities are low, and his land would undoubtedly produce more from another (more labour intensive) form. You mentioned knepp too, which has extremely low density of grazing animals. I'd love for you to have George Monbiot on your show to give the other side of the debate, asking him his arguments against (I agree with you, that his solution of labour grown proteins is a horrible solution) so that you have both sides of the argument. His main arguments would be the volume of land required - most importantly, including all land used in the calculation, including for imported feed. Also, the opportunity cost missed by having so much land used for beef that could be used for something more sequestering or productive. I think many listeners would come away from this thinking that all grass fed beef is beneficial, but that isn't the case. It would have been great to hear you push him on what exactly regenerative means, how it is calculated and how externalities are included in the calculation (for example, if I have ten acres of soil being regenerated by grazing cattle, but they use ten acres of soy over winter in soil that is being tilled yearly, then that should not be classed as regenerative - if you'll excuse the crude example!). I'm a meat eater regardless, but I came away from this interview a little disappointed and disheartened, and no further forward in understanding the full picture. I'd like to believe everything Patrick is saying, but there was a serious lack of detail here. It felt like you'd both come to the conclusion before the interview started. It was night and day from your first interview with Joshua Sparkes for example, who had clearly been through the devil's advocate position with himself and explained that in that interview. Patrick does seem a lovely gentleman though and otherwise the interview was good listening. Thanks Huw.
get Jeremy on board. he loves his sheep & cattle. he's got his farm shop & restaurant (? i think) BIG Time influencer love him or hate him. the debate will explode. 🎉
No offence but on that sized farm to only be producing around 30-35 tonnes of food is not a lot. He could dedicate just 7 acres of that land with 2 being fallow at any one time and produce easily in excess of 50 tonnes of organic veg a year. He could then rewild the rest of it wouldn't that be a more efficient system that would be far better for nature. He could combine what he is doing now with veg production and produce 20 tonnes of cheese and 50+ tonnes of veg. We produce over 5 tonnes of veg a year, organically on less than 1/2 an acre of grade 3b ag land in Wales at 170m or just over 600ft in old money.
We are no longer hunters and gatherers and do not need to depend on meat. Therefore, I will not eat flesh from other animals, and think it is really strange how people are ok with it. I think it is because they don't recognize the beautiful cows, cute little baby sheep, intelligent pigs and chickens after they have been slaughtered and repackaged...people are strange all right.
We are all entitled to our own opinions! And the no dependence on meat does not include many native communities and tribes, especially in harsher weather conditions, who do indeed depend on meat.
38 minutes in, rather than financing the agriculture transition (AKA raising the price of clean food}", we penalize the chemical agriculture. The penalty for not working within regenerative agriculture practices, results in a penalty more expensive than regenerating soil?
Raising the price of clean food does not work as we have so much poverty and people who cannot afford it. In my opinion (Huw here) I believe everyone should have a right to affordable high quality food, and at the moment that can only be done through financial support for Regen Ag/organic etc and strong policies. It isn't ideal but it's better to punish/tax the types of agriculture that are destroying our planet/health etc than making the public pay more for good food which simply wouldn't happen, so we would end up being stuck in the cycle we are in now, but for perpetuity
Farmer, but not a prepper? Prepping is about not dying when you lose power and heat for a few weeks because the government is not going to come help you, no matter what they say or have you thinking. If I were anywhere in Europe right now, I would have 6 months of food stored away. Not because I expect to personally need 6 months but because it is easier to feed neighbors than to (forcibly suggest they go elsewhere)
You can prep the heck out of everything and then when the apocalypse comes your place will be the first that the scavengers will look. Don't live in scarcity mentality. Enjoy each day to the fullest and share with loved ones.
There seems to be a theme with these completely non scientific takes on beefs impact on nature. It centers around anecdotal stories of regenerative farmers doing it differently, but that's not enough to answer the very important questions about beefs impact. You have to look at the numbers in total. Most beef is fed with annual crops, not grass lands. Most grass lands with ruminant grazers are stocked higher than nature intended, and bio diversity is lower, so is carbon sequestration. There is too much data on how much resources beef takes up (75% of fresh water, 70% of ag lands, 90% of co2 emissions) for a measly 18% of calories to discount because some old timer has a pastoral story to tell.
I grew up in West wales and saw incredibly rare old meadows being planted up with trees by people who never bothered to find out what they were destroying (the meadows were full of rare orchids that they replaced by common trees that often were not even native). As to inheritance tax won't the tax just get rid of all the small farms and Blackrock/supermarkets will buy it up? I am glad there is some optimism here but if they messed it up with the cow farts (or had malign intentions) already why won't they mess it up next time? Another thing that shocks me is how few people even noticed when JFK Junior had those court cases against glyphosate - how comes you didn't know his record on the environment, how comes so many people on the left are in an echo chamber and are not even aware of half the stuff going on? The 'left' is morphing into big pharma lackeys in the US (and everywhere else too) and is NOT what it used to be at all - this is why environmentalists like JFK Junior was forced to swap sides,, people need to pay attention and get out of their leftist bubble and see what is being reported by 'right-wing' and independent press (it is one hell of an eye opener! (also OMG I know all these places , I wondered what happened to to organic veg packing place in Lampeter and I remember the churns on the farm entrances - so sad that things have gone down hill so much since I grew up there)
To be honest on a personal note I am deeply concerned about the left's siding with big ag, big pharma, big everything as it is those that arguably have caused much of the damaging impact to the public in the first place. I can't blame RFK Jr for his changing of sides, it will just be interesting to see what happens from January and beyond.
So glad you touched on the methane problem. Personally I think it is wrong to give a cow something that will stop it farting. It is natural and we should not interfere with nature. Just my opinion.
Mammoths existed with an ice age. We will be okay with cows
Living in Australia I can't say I'd heard of Patrick Holden, but what a fantastic interview!
He made an awful lot of sense.
I have a feeling that this is one of those videos I'll need to watch a few times and suggest to many opinionated but poorly educated friends.
Thank you so much for watching! Really glad you enjoyed it
I'm sharing it with other podcasters as well as friends. Huw / Patrick you need to contact the Carbon Cowboys/ Roots So Deep you Tube channel. Their documentary is 15 years of work & science working with ranchers across US and now spreading to S Africa/ NZ/ Australia. They Recently interviewed James Rebank who is doing regen ag in Cumbria. One of their specialists Allen Williams visited James's farm & looked at his biodiversity & soil& numbers of species of plants. animals& birds. Rebank would be another great interviewee.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsfmWXwGK4jcI?si=msh0spseGTzc97gD i think there are 3 shorts in total.
agriculture is the primary health service. wonderful.
ua-cam.com/users/shortssfpeZ24-h2Y?si=VztSbqmPMT99Utxy
This video brought back fond memories of growing up on a small family dairy in the 1950's. Every morning we would take the filled milk cans out to the road where they were placed in a concrete tank filled with cool water. The milk truck would drive by, pick up the milk cans, and leave an equal number of cleaned empty cans for us to fill.
Huw, this is a fantastic interview. Patrick Holden is the foremost authority on proper farming. If we could see the implementation of the solutions he recommends we could see many of the problems society faces solved. Please interview him again, you and he clearly have a great rapport. Thank you.
Thank you John! I am sure Patrick will be back on the podcast!
I’ve watched your videos for years Huw. I’ve always enjoys them from a practical point of view and what I can learn from them but these interviews you’re doing are another level of brilliance. You’re bringing to the fore the people who can save us from ourselves and the big money businesses who have pushed our natural world and our health to the worst place they’ve ever been. I’ve watched them all and am both fascinated and have been given some hope for the future from them. You’re showing why small screen UA-camrs are important and showing what they can do that the national media sources can’t. Very, very well done and thank you.
That's so kind of you, thank you so much!!! That comment is just the most motivating reason for me to do these!
@@regenmediaofficial👏👏👏🙋♀️🙋♀️🙋♀️👏👏👏
Best chat I have seen between two people in a long time. Dropping pearls of wisdom so fast it was hard to keep up at times. This will be rewatched at a later date. Thank you both, and the team at Regenerative Media.
Thank you, really appreciate it!
I take your point that if beef is produced regeneratively then it can help sequester carbon. I reluctantly became vegetarian not just because of carbon emissions from meat production but the huge damage it is doing to nature, in terms of biodiversity and water pollution. Most rainforest is cleared for livestock production or to grow soy for animal feed. We cleared our forests centuries ago for agriculture and the vast number of farms are not farming in an agroecological way. So if I or most people go to the supermarket the likelihood is they will not be eating regeneratively farmed meat. Maybe someday in the future all meat and dairy production in the UK will switch to regeneratively produced but I suspect that the yields would be lower, how much meat in other parts of the world can be produced regeneratively. I doubt it is enough to feed the growing appetite for meat and dairy globally. Also is it OK to cut down rainforest or prevent some level.of rewilding in nature depleted countries like the UK in order to continue to eat as much meat and dairy as we currently do. Also where will we grow the veg etc if we continue to give up all the agricultural land to meat production which to me is a luxury product that should probably be consumed at most once or twice a week or at Xmas and birthdays. There is more to the harm caused by livestock than just carbon emissions. You can add flooding to the list as well until we switch to 100% regenerative ag. There is also a lot of pretend regenerative livestock productionnas well where they are not building the soil and have just jumped on the bandwagon without understanding what it actually is. And as there is no regulation on what is and isn't regenerative the only way you could truly know is if you knew the farm and their practices. So for now until we have huge reform in how livestock is reared here and globally then the safest thing to do if you care about nature and our ecosystems is avoid eating it unless you are absolutely sure about how it has been produced and even then you will be very limited in places where you can source it. It will also be very expensive which is probably the true cost of rearing meat.
We purchased meat from Grass Valley regenerative farm in Missoula Montana U.S. it was the best meat I've ever eaten. They are restoring soil and human health, and bringing the pleasure and beauty of true artisanal food back to the table.
Interesting to note Patrick acknowledging that the hillsides on which he farms would revert to temperate rainforest if not grazed - a habitat that is tinkering on the brink of extinction in the UK and globally so rare. We can only imagine how many species could thrive in a fully restored celtic rainforest, and the immense benefits to carbon sequestration, and flood protection that this could bring. To say that the small amount of food produced on this land justifies what it is actually preventing is rather misleading. In domesticating and farming animals, we have sadly wiped out every apex predator like the wolf in this country, to instead take their place, and kill our domesticated prey. If livestock farmers are still insistent on cultivating hillsides, perhaps they can grow broadleaf forests to supply timber on a coppicing cycle, or fruits or nuts, or medicinal tree leaves, the possibilities are endless! All it requires is to think outside of the orthodoxy of animal farming. It seems to me that we are all desperate to continue killing animals, giving them a "good life" whilst packing them off to slaughter in the ultimate act of betrayal. No doubt, the impacts on mental health of slaughterhouse workers is also something we rarely consider. However, as long as we continue to eat animals, someone must endure the mental agony of taking life day in and day out.
Huw your interviews are really good. Interesting , passionate people. Please keep doing them .
Thank you! I have another 5 recorded already!!:)
Great inter-generational wisdom being shared here. Thank you Patrick and Huw !
Glad you enjoyed it!
What an amazing interview!! I look forward to seeing where you both go from here! You are doing a good work!
Farmers are healthcare workers. 😊 A balanced diet is so important. I was a vegetarian for years. I cut eggs out of my diet because they were so high in cholesterol. Five years later, I was diagnosed with osteoporosis and told my bones were demineralizing. The doctor said I was low in Vitamin D which is necessary for your body to absorb Calcium. I practically lived in my garden and had lots of exposure to the sun. How could I be low on Vitamin D? I found out it was cholesterol that helps our bodies absorb Vitamin D so we can absorb calcium. We need animal fat to have a healthy diet.
Hi Judi, thank you so much for your kind words and sharing your story with us!
An absolutely great discussion! I am a few years older than Patrick Holden, but of the same generation. My farming/gardening very well parallels his, and love mentoring young persons to pass on the love of working with nature.
Fantastic conversation. Patrick is so knowledgeable and open and these conversations are showing us the best of you, Huw - passionate and strategic about the bigger picture and the future of food beyond gardening. I'd like to add that when discussing meat v's plant based diets, we have to recognise that many people go plant based primarily due to the animal welfare, rather than environmental or health aspects. We are relatively ethical in the UK, but, it is hard to ignore the extent to which animals feel stress and fear. Local slaughter houses have closed and animals often have to travel miles before ever entering the slaughterhouse. Is there a need to bring back and subsidise local and also (well and tightly regulated) mobile slaughter outfits? You touched on distribution issues too. So many questions to cogitate!
That is incredibly kind of you, thank you! That is a very true point and a whole additional conversation to include. The Sustainable Food Trust have done a huge amount of work exploring ideas such as mobile slaughterhouses etc, and more work is being done. Regulations, as you mentioned, are the greatest barrier.
Another great interview, Huw. Thank you.
My pleasure!
Huw, the interviews you are sharing are so important. It's so informative to hear what the farmers at the heart of food production really think and experience. Some if it is very deep stuff but I am so glad to at least be able to hear the reality of farming. Look forward to many more interviews. Thank you. 😊
Thoroughly enjoyed this convo - A massive amount of very poignant tops covered with great info and view points shared - defo helped us to look at a few topics through a slightly different lens.. especially the methane points, with info like this not being brought clearly enough into the public eye & governments etc NOT admiting when they have gotten something wrong we (the public) have no freedom to make informed choices ... my view on most things is that transparency is key ... and if ALL of the information is put out there, we can make decissions based on real info, rather than what is being hiden from us! One of my fav expressions that I like to use whenever possible is "Vote with you £££ - it is the most powerful voice we have" And what Patrick said at the end about healthy herds is brilliant in my humble opinion too... The way animals are raised (in the main stream system) is one of the main reason why I stopped eating meat and one of the main things I feel is likely responsible for any negative health impacts (along with processing or volume of course). Overall if we could just step our farming/food consumstion/food system back a mear 50 years, similar it how Patrick was saying about the 3000 smaller farms/milk churns, we coud fix so many of the issues that have been created in our current food system/farming model. Breaking boundaries as always Huw - LOVE IT - Thank you. 💚✌🌿 Sorry very long comment!!! 🤣 Written out of pure inspiration & hope 🙏
Excellent interview. So much wisdom. The people have the power to reject.
Thank you so much for watching!
So fascinating, so much to unpack! As others have said, I will need to re-watch this several times I think to take it all in. Thanks for this.
You are most welcome!
Great interview, many thanks!
I can see that reading books is on return in our trains in Estonia, only a little bit, but still a hopeful sign 🙂
Wonderful! Thank you for watching!
I loved this conversation and all the useful information in it! Thank you!
At the moment 85% of meat animals in the UK are confined....eating grain and causing pollution and huge Greenhouse emissions...so...at present ...NOT eating so much meat is environmentally desirable...I personally only eat grass-fed or pasture-raised organic meat ......and the actual number of factory farms in the UK is increasing . More suffering, more pollution, more crap food...not less.........Most farmers are only interested in money...i am part of the Regen Ag and Permaculture movement..but the amount of food produced this way is tiny....and Huw is correct ..rewilding is just a con for rich landowners to get public funds and keep people off their land
The number is vastly skewed because of chickens, however there should be no confined animal rearing at all. And grains are terrible for climate, soil, etc too. I think what Patrick is getting at is voting with your wallet, by buying more from smaller scale Regen farms etc, we create more demand to encourage other farms to transition to and adopt that model, hence propelling change.
I think the idea that grazing cattle can sequester carbon on a long term basis has been roundly debunked. If you're starting with very carbon poor soil you get good results in the first few years of regen grazing but after that it plateaus and you stop sequestering more carbon.
Also, why not use geese instead of ruminants? Geese live of grass, produce highly nutritious food and don't emit methane.
Actually the better option would be to integrate agroforestry systems with trees and pasture for cattle. Most grasses grow better under partial shade and provide prolonged grazing opportunities, plus you grow the trees leading to multiple benefits. Also if you are doing a rotation with arable, cropping, and pasture then cattle can provide much of the fertility needs for the veg. Geese absolutely can work, but they would just need a different agroforestry system.
@regenmediaofficial interested in why you think geese would need a different agroforestry system?
I currently run beef cattle in a silvopasture system but am considering geese instead. I can't see any reason they wouldn't work within my 20m tree row spacing.
I think the main reason people don't do geese is there isn't much of a market, but if we truly care about the environment and understand the urgency we can't let that stop us.
@@FelixWattsman I am so into the idea of geese and is something I too am looking at integrating (Huw here) - I think geese can be more beneficial as they don't have the danger of eating bark etc. Coppice would make so much sense, and orchard too, not sure there would be any point in having rows of trees planted in the same way you would for cattle.
I'm super keen to try an open up geese to wider public appeal - perhaps worth a chat about? Email me: huw (at) regenerative.media
It’s a lot of thoughts and opinions. Not much data or science.
Folks will do anything to justify there continued habits.
Grazing can indeed sequester carbon on a long term basis - even if there is a high baseline (i.e. not poor soil). There was a study done a while back called 'Grazed and Confused' which is what people are often quoting when they raise the point around soils becoming saturated. There were flaws with this study. All the studies that talk of soils being saturated are referring to mineral organic matter saturation rather than particulate organic matter. Particulate organic matter has no limit - and 50% of it is carbon. With the correct grazing management, soils can sequester carbon year on year with no end point. Big gains can be made by extending the rest periods of pasture, allowing grass to get long and therefore rooting depth to increase. Deeper roots access new layers for carbon to be laid down.
So pleased to see RFK Jr discussed here. I saw the interview with him and Joel Salatin. Interesting times. Let's hope Trump won't fire him right away!
That's my hope too!
I'm nervous for multiple other things that he might do. He may have good ideas on several topics, but probably not everything he'll be responsible for.
There's a difference between meat animals/fish being raised by corporations on meat farms and feedlots and meat animals living healthily out on prairies. Meat animals living out on the prairies and truly free range are indeed sustainable and healthy for the environment. But the rest of the nonsense about how taxes do and don't work when you have mega corporations buying everything up, especially in the US, isn't really well thought out. I'm a retired economist for a global firm who moved out to the high plains out west in the US. Everybody thinks they know what's best for everybody else. They don't. People buy meat from corporate Farms because it's cheaper. It's cheaper for a reason. And people throw almost half of their food away. I think it's important to address the level of overconsumption and waste along with raising meat animals in a sustainable and humane and healthy way for all life.
That was a wonderful discussion. It's a shame we can't go back to mixed farms with no artificial fertilisers and only muck put on the land. And bringing people back to the land, only we can never go back, can we?
Thanks for the analysis! A bit off-topic, but I wanted to ask: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
I agree eating is the way out. I always wish that we could get more geeese, duck, and sheep at least in USA market. We are over beef here. Lots of young people over look sheep and goats. Duck and Geese here even though sheep, duck, and geese at least herd well. Correct Markets and doing it hala will get the sheep and goats flying. Lots of time we are trying to sell steak and potatoes to people who are swimming in steak and potatoes. It's currenting destroying meduim and small farms. And it would allow them to unplug from the cattle markets that are frankly in the USA monopolies. But it takes a lot to notice markets that are ignored.
I have great doubt going into this video, but let's keep an open mind. I'll give my opinion after watching
Thank you so much, that's the attitude to have for everything👌
First of all, this format works. You discuss topics in conversation. It doesn't feel like a forced interview. This is an open minded discussion between people.
The thing I most got from this video is the idea that people need to be more aware when their food comes from. Beef is thumbnail topic. Beef as part of a sustainable diet? The answer is "yes, but..." And you need to listen to why their answer is yes. They said the exact thing in the video. "Don't just read the headlines", because they will mislead people. Going to a fast food place and eat more unltra processed beef is not what is implied with the thumbnail. People need to learn where food comes from and how it is produced.
Patrick Holden talks about the difference between small farming and industrial scale farming. There is the difference. They discuss why small farming practices should be upscaled instead of all becoming industrial farms. There is a role there for governments to provide the carrots and sticks to guide farmers in the right direction, but this needs to be done by people who know how farming works and which 'solutions' can actually work counterproductive.
Which crops can be grown locally is also an important issue they discuss.
Hi Huw, I have been following you for a long time and have a lot of respect for you. I’m not sure if you removed my other comment or it’s sitting “in review”, but I think it’s important to share alternative opinions too. I hope you can publish it still?
I haven't removed any comment. I've checked the held for review section and there is nothing there either! Really sorry as really want to hear what you have to say!
@ strange. It was there for a moment and then it just disappeared. It’s too long for me to rewrite. Can I recommend you read an Oxford study by Joseph Poore which was and still probably is the most comprehensive study into food globally and its environmental impacts. He was completely impartial and all his data was based on real science. If you don’t want to read the whole thing then just read the final summary. It’s called: Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers. Mitigation through consumers is the best chapter to read.
I wonder why we don't eat more lamb, mutton, kid and goat meat. By grazing in outbacks, they take up much less arable land than cows. And I think it's delicious, much better than beef if you ask me. Healthier too.
The overgrazing/unmanaged grazing of animals in vast areas, coupled with a lack of natural predators has caused much of the desertification we have today. This includes the green deserts in Britain. Mutton is one of my favourites too, but cows are much hardier to weather the outdoors through the year here in UK. That's why every sustainable diet changes based on geographical context
@@regenmediaofficial Yes, context is everything. Too much of anything is not good. Here in Norway we have the opposite problem, with overgrowth of our previously very biodiverse cultural landscape. It needs to be kept open with grazing and meadow management. We also have vast mountains where there's little risk of overgrazing. We do have natural predators, so one really should use old breeds that are more robust and stand together against predator attacks. These days, sheep farmers use white sheep from the UK because they have higher yields, but many of them die because they're so weak and stupid, easy prey for predators.
Is Parick really correct in saying that the farm inherirance tax is good for small farmers? Dont the large landowners have all the advice to avoid death duties ? The people least likely to have good advice are the small scale farmers.
Elon Musk was on Joe Rogan Experience.
At 9:10
Elon: "I did switch to like steak and eggs for breakfast and I found that's like a power up."
At 9:40
Joe: "People dismiss this whole carnivore diet thing because in our heads because there's a lot of propagandists that animal agriculture is the number one contributor to global warming."
Elon: "Yeah, it's rubbish"
At 10:05
Elon: "The animals are not going to make any difference to global warming"
The only reason people listen to Elon Musk is because he's so rich. And anybody who wants to listen to 3 hours of Joe Rogan go on and on can have at it. Maybe find some better quality people to follow.
@@ArtemisWithTheSilverBow really worth listening to any long form conversation versus a headline. Trump and Vance for example, a conversation that is unedited that's that long is hard to hide behind
Well if that’s what Elon and joe think!! 🤣
Couldn’t make up how smart these folks are!
@@ArtemisWithTheSilverBowThat may be so, but it is comments like his which can help wake people up. It is something to be grateful for.
George Monbiot needs to eat humble pie, or better still, steak and kidney
😂
Sadly George doesn't need to, because none of the points he regularly makes were addressed in this interview. Huw, if I can be critical for a second, I think you failed to ask any of the pertinent questions that would actually make us better informed about grass fed beef, and hopefully you'll try, in future videos, to push back a little, even just in the role of devil's advocate. There were a couple of red flags in this interview that I felt deserved a lot more thought, and perhaps you could ask in your next interview with Patrick? He mentioned that the land would revert to temperate rainforest if left, and that is a hugely diverse form of landscape that could easily be considered more vital than land for beef. There are likely many forms of agriculture (or gardening!) that could take place in that environment whilst allowing for rainforest to take hold once again (as evidenced by Amazon populations prior to industrial agriculture). However, we could assume that Patrick was referring to grass fed beef in other areas in the UK that could be more appropriate (frustrating references to bison are irrelevant to the UK), so his points still hold weight. Toward the end of the conversation, he moved from discussing grass fed beef to MAINLY grass fed beef. The word mainly can often do a lot of heavy lifting, yet it's here we can gather whether something is sustainable, regenerative or otherwise. I have a neighbour who has grass fed beef who over-winters indoors and supplements hay with imported soy. I have another neighbour who has highland cows and they are grass fed outside year round with hay supplement only, but at a far lower density. The former has any claim to being regenerative (he doesn't claim this!) nulled by not including the land that the soy was grown on in his calculations. The latter is regenerative but stocking densities are low, and his land would undoubtedly produce more from another (more labour intensive) form. You mentioned knepp too, which has extremely low density of grazing animals.
I'd love for you to have George Monbiot on your show to give the other side of the debate, asking him his arguments against (I agree with you, that his solution of labour grown proteins is a horrible solution) so that you have both sides of the argument. His main arguments would be the volume of land required - most importantly, including all land used in the calculation, including for imported feed. Also, the opportunity cost missed by having so much land used for beef that could be used for something more sequestering or productive.
I think many listeners would come away from this thinking that all grass fed beef is beneficial, but that isn't the case. It would have been great to hear you push him on what exactly regenerative means, how it is calculated and how externalities are included in the calculation (for example, if I have ten acres of soil being regenerated by grazing cattle, but they use ten acres of soy over winter in soil that is being tilled yearly, then that should not be classed as regenerative - if you'll excuse the crude example!).
I'm a meat eater regardless, but I came away from this interview a little disappointed and disheartened, and no further forward in understanding the full picture. I'd like to believe everything Patrick is saying, but there was a serious lack of detail here. It felt like you'd both come to the conclusion before the interview started. It was night and day from your first interview with Joshua Sparkes for example, who had clearly been through the devil's advocate position with himself and explained that in that interview.
Patrick does seem a lovely gentleman though and otherwise the interview was good listening. Thanks Huw.
Please forward this to George Monbiot!!..he has influence and…he doesn’t “get it” atm!…🙋♀️
🤣
@@regenmediaofficiala friend went to a 6 inches of soil film viewing & monbiot convinced the audience that plants are the only way.
get Jeremy on board. he loves his sheep & cattle. he's got his farm shop & restaurant (? i think) BIG Time influencer love him or hate him. the debate will explode. 🎉
@@rosebugler Jeremy?..
No offence but on that sized farm to only be producing around 30-35 tonnes of food is not a lot. He could dedicate just 7 acres of that land with 2 being fallow at any one time and produce easily in excess of 50 tonnes of organic veg a year. He could then rewild the rest of it wouldn't that be a more efficient system that would be far better for nature. He could combine what he is doing now with veg production and produce 20 tonnes of cheese and 50+ tonnes of veg. We produce over 5 tonnes of veg a year, organically on less than 1/2 an acre of grade 3b ag land in Wales at 170m or just over 600ft in old money.
We are no longer hunters and gatherers and do not need to depend on meat. Therefore, I will not eat flesh from other animals, and think it is really strange how people are ok with it. I think it is because they don't recognize the beautiful cows, cute little baby sheep, intelligent pigs and chickens after they have been slaughtered and repackaged...people are strange all right.
We are all entitled to our own opinions! And the no dependence on meat does not include many native communities and tribes, especially in harsher weather conditions, who do indeed depend on meat.
38 minutes in, rather than financing the agriculture transition (AKA raising the price of clean food}", we penalize the chemical agriculture.
The penalty for not working within regenerative agriculture practices, results in a penalty more expensive than regenerating soil?
Raising the price of clean food does not work as we have so much poverty and people who cannot afford it. In my opinion (Huw here) I believe everyone should have a right to affordable high quality food, and at the moment that can only be done through financial support for Regen Ag/organic etc and strong policies. It isn't ideal but it's better to punish/tax the types of agriculture that are destroying our planet/health etc than making the public pay more for good food which simply wouldn't happen, so we would end up being stuck in the cycle we are in now, but for perpetuity
Farmer, but not a prepper? Prepping is about not dying when you lose power and heat for a few weeks because the government is not going to come help you, no matter what they say or have you thinking. If I were anywhere in Europe right now, I would have 6 months of food stored away. Not because I expect to personally need 6 months but because it is easier to feed neighbors than to (forcibly suggest they go elsewhere)
You can prep the heck out of everything and then when the apocalypse comes your place will be the first that the scavengers will look. Don't live in scarcity mentality. Enjoy each day to the fullest and share with loved ones.
There seems to be a theme with these completely non scientific takes on beefs impact on nature. It centers around anecdotal stories of regenerative farmers doing it differently, but that's not enough to answer the very important questions about beefs impact. You have to look at the numbers in total. Most beef is fed with annual crops, not grass lands. Most grass lands with ruminant grazers are stocked higher than nature intended, and bio diversity is lower, so is carbon sequestration. There is too much data on how much resources beef takes up (75% of fresh water, 70% of ag lands, 90% of co2 emissions) for a measly 18% of calories to discount because some old timer has a pastoral story to tell.
Hi Jackson, those are some impressive statistics, would you mind sharing their source? Particularly that beef causes 90% of emissions? Thank you
I grew up in West wales and saw incredibly rare old meadows being planted up with trees by people who never bothered to find out what they were destroying (the meadows were full of rare orchids that they replaced by common trees that often were not even native). As to inheritance tax won't the tax just get rid of all the small farms and Blackrock/supermarkets will buy it up? I am glad there is some optimism here but if they messed it up with the cow farts (or had malign intentions) already why won't they mess it up next time?
Another thing that shocks me is how few people even noticed when JFK Junior had those court cases against glyphosate - how comes you didn't know his record on the environment, how comes so many people on the left are in an echo chamber and are not even aware of half the stuff going on? The 'left' is morphing into big pharma lackeys in the US (and everywhere else too) and is NOT what it used to be at all - this is why environmentalists like JFK Junior was forced to swap sides,, people need to pay attention and get out of their leftist bubble and see what is being reported by 'right-wing' and independent press (it is one hell of an eye opener!
(also OMG I know all these places , I wondered what happened to to organic veg packing place in Lampeter and I remember the churns on the farm entrances - so sad that things have gone down hill so much since I grew up there)
To be honest on a personal note I am deeply concerned about the left's siding with big ag, big pharma, big everything as it is those that arguably have caused much of the damaging impact to the public in the first place. I can't blame RFK Jr for his changing of sides, it will just be interesting to see what happens from January and beyond.
Bacon (dry cured) eggs, butter and beef, or lamb is all you need for a good healthy diet. And you only need to eat once a day.
You still need veggies and fiber though. And people with fast metabolisms need to eat more than once a day. One size does not fit all.
🤣🤮
Pork is not a part of a healthy diet.