48V Power Queen LiFePO4 Balancing with Victron MPPT150/35 A Weeks Worth of Data to Digest
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
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The battery is not absorbing any current during the absorption phase because it has opened the charge relay. It is effectively inactive if it uses a passive balancer that only operates during charging. It's unlikely that it has an active balancer. It would help if you operated the battery according to Power Queen’s specifications, which are 54V ± 0.75V. This is the optimal range for when the charger turns off. There’s no need to push the battery to a point where the cell overvoltage protection activates.
Yes, that sudden jump looks like a BMS over voltage disconnect.
I was thinking that last night. I've been scratching my head for a couple of days over this mystery. I concluded that the only likely explanation was the BMS was going into full charge disconnect. The victron controller would see the battery disappearing, hence the spike, then it stops charging and the BMS switches back on again.
@@kevinmills5293must be. It would be impossible for a LiFeP04 battery to jump from 56 to 58 volts in a second if it was actively connected 😂
I'm dealing with a very similar situation. I have two 40 amp Tracer EP Ever CC feeding a 200 amp Ampere Time 12 Volt battery. I was Boosting at 14.2V for 100 minutes and Floating at 13.8V no issues. Then I decided to do a monthly BMS balance by changing Boost to 14.4V for 120 minutes. I came back to the system and the Xantrex ProSine Inverter was flashing green Voltage Overload and not powering the fridge. I checked the MT50s daily Battery range and it was 32 Volts peak and 12 Volts Low. I figured the BMS had triggered, rebooted the Xantrex and carried on. Now I've had the same thing happen when in Boost 14.2V for 100 minutes. I was sitting and watching it when it did it and it was a momentary surge to around 28 Volts. MT50 shows similar 28 Volt peak 12 Volt Bottom. The next day I changed Boost to 14.1V and 90 minutes. Wasn't very sunny and haven't had it happen in the last few days. I suspect it happened the second time at 14.2 Volt Boost because the battery was already really charged up from the 14.4 Volt Boost day. Now I'm thinking adjust it to 14.2 Volts 100 minute Boost when not soo sunny and 14.1 Volts 90 or 100 minutes when lots of sun... Kind of a pain in the ass to be physically changing the Boost settings on both CC all the time. The battery and systems only been in play since April. The battery did sit unopened for 20 months before I started using it
I've set both CC at 14.1 Volts 30 minutes Boost and 13.8 Float. Ill see how that does and maybe once a month change them to 14.2 Volts Boost or 14.4 Volts for what amount of time I'm not sure yet. Maybe 14.4 Volts once a month for 10-30 minutes with the inverter turned off shortly before peak sun. I'm not sure but I think the BMS might balance at 14.2 Boost Voltage and not require going all the way to 14.4 Volts. Many conflicting opinions on this. Addendum: Spent the last 4 hours reading on this. I might try setting the Boost to 14.2 Volts and Zero Absorption time after testing out 14.1 Volts 30 mins Boost/Absorption time for awhile. LIFEPO4 batts don't like to be held at 100% SOC like I've been doing and going to 14.2-14.4V with zero absorption time will allow for a 90-95% SOC. I'll try taking it to 14.4 Volts for 5-15 minutes once a month for BMS balance. If I try the 14.2-14.4V Boost with Zero Boost/Absorption time I might reduce the Float to 13.6V from the 13.8V I've been using. I'm in Northern Canada where we don't get a lot of sun much of the year so a higher Voltage can make sense. In a sunny climate a lower Voltage makes sense. There's a lot of good comments in this balancing video Andy The German made. Andy and commenters are using 13.8 Volts Boost and 13.4 Volts Float. Andy's testing out 14.2 Volts Boost in this video for balancing. The manual for my Ampere Time battery recommends a SCC Boost setting of 13.8 Volts with 120 mins Boost/Absorption time and a Float of 13.8 Volts. They also recommend an Equalize charge Voltage of 14 and a duration of 120 mins... Not too sure about that ua-cam.com/video/OpEQ4fV7-ZU/v-deo.html Update: I've backed off to 14 volts Boost/Absorption at 15 minutes duration. Float is still 13.8 Volts. Seems to be doing well and not overcharging
Mahalo for that information🤙
Great information! Mahalo!🤙
@@ProjectsinParadise808 Mahalo for the channel 🤙
@@ProjectsinParadise808 Thanks! Mahalo!🤙
Bob, my initial thought a few days ago was that the battery itself was probably not the problem. Usually it would be the inverter. Anyway, with my limited knowledge, I think your thought pattern about replacing the inverter with the all in one is an excellent idea. I would not try to fix or go into the inverter unless you want to do that just to learn, but the cost doesn’t make it worthwhile. Inverters like that are good, but only last limited time, it has met its stress limit. Aloha my friend.👍
Judging from the graphs,and seeing that the battery is capable of hitting those high voltages,its not a cell imbalance,with an imbalace it would not be capable to charge above 56.5Volts. I am 100% sure this is the inverters fault.
@@83kaszas I concur 👍
I'm actually still messing with this. Running everyday, but nothing concrete yet to report. I hope to show an answer soon. Aloha buddy!🤙
100% sure this is the inverter,your battery must have a great BMS,if you could charge with that curve,up to that level.If there is an imbalance,you wouldnt have been able to charge them so high.Good luck mate,i hope you get a victron inverter! :)
If the inverter has been gradually degrading then that would indicate it does have an issue. I was going to suggest switching off the solar charge controller when the battery is at full charge and then switching on the inverter and see if the problem occurs. I would suggest that if the inverter has been seeing voltage spikes and bms disconnects since it was installed then that could have damaged it. Even if you replace the inverter you would still need to ensure the bms disconnects do not continue which probably means setting the absorption voltage a bit lower say 56 volts or even down to 55.6.
Invaluable information. This is a tough one. The BMS is definitely disconnecting on the charge controller and the charger controller is over-volting for a second or two when that happens, then trying to follow the load while the BMS is disconnected and over-volting repeatedly while the BMS is disconnect while there is a load.
So now the question is... at what point does the BMS disconnect? To determine that you have to look at the graph again but with a 30 minutes or 1 hour time frame rather than over a few days. i.e. so you can see the actual charge curve at the end, spread out in time. (and you have to do it within an hour or two of the event to get high resolution data).
If you view the high resolution data each day with just 30 minutes or 1 hour resolution, and take a photo of it, we can determine if the battery is making progress or not on the balancing but more importantly we can determine exactly at what voltage the BMS is disconnecting during charging. The charge curve will look normal up until that point, going exponential near the end of the charge, but then going literally straight up when the BMS disconnects.
Lets see where the BMS is disconnecting each day. In high resolution.
My feeling is... I'm still not sure whether this battery is 15s or 16s but I think it must be 16s because it settles at roughly 53.0 - 53.3V or so after sundown when there's a load on it, which is precisely the voltage range where I'd expect it to be for a 16s pack. So perhaps one cell in the pack is just badly out of balance.
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When the BMS is connected and operating normally, and the battery is balanced, the last part of the charge curve just before the charge target is hit should see roughly 0.01V to 0.02V per second of rising voltage. 10 seconds to rise 0.1V to 0.2V, roughly. Assuming a 0.2C charge rate. This is why clouds going in and out or changes in the load just shouldn't be causing the voltage to rise all the way from 56.8V to 58.0V+. It should only be able to cause that to happen if the BMS disconnects prior to the charge target being reached.
If the BMS is working properly, going from 56.8V to 58.0V would take about 2 minutes at a 0.2C charge rate. The charge controller should be able to react far more quickly than 2 minutes... the charge controller should be able to react within 10 seconds.
-Matt
I think it spikes when the charge controller sees a need for float voltage to turn up the amps from the solar (when load is turned on) and since there is no room between the charge target and the float voltage it spikes a shut down voltage.
Great info as usual Matt...I'm still fiddling with it and keeping everything up and running. 🤙
you got me looking at my Victron app history 😂
😉🤙
This may be a silly suggestion. Try turning the Victron controller off. Then power the inverter on with only the battery. It would be interesting to see what happens. May be the Victron causing the voltage spike that is shutting the inverter down. Process of elimination as you will 🤙🏻
The battery has very little capacity at the higher voltage and will drop instantly without the charge controller running... If you have a variable dc power supply, you could test the inverter shut off voltage with that properly.
🤙
Maybe the victron is doing the over-volting? 61 v spike could trigger the inverter protection. Do you have another 48v charge controller to test with?
Lower charge voltages and see if the inverter over volts. There are potentiometers in there for dc and ac voltage adjustments. They usually blob hot glue or silicone on them to keep them from moving.
My brother seriously it should have worked we literally have similar system and my Reliable cuts out at 57v. I would really love to see the measurement of each cell, that is why I went the DIY rote. If one cell isn't keeping up with the others you could have normal reading but when a load is put on it, it can't keep up. I would pop it open, why? Even a loose bolt can make a world of difference. Diy is the best it really allow you to monitor your system at the micro level plus the truth is I can't afford all them fancy equipments. Go ahead try the all in one and see what happens, it would allow you to see whether it is the battery or the inverter.
Aloha howard! I hope to be back with a follow up soon on this with some more info. Still working it everyday, along with other stuff, but it's taking a minute. Mahalo for the great suggestions!🤙
You should send the inverter in to have it examined.
1) VE smart Controller is functioning perfectly. The sudden voltage indication tells us this: The Power Inverter has an internal failure; likely in the Power Supply circuit. Can you fix it? No! The circuit board is heavily populated with electronic components which require experience to troubleshoot because of difficulties isolating circuits. Probably - most likely the original fault occurred in one single capacitor located in the DC Power supply voltage regulation circuit. Now, stray voltage is finding the path of least resistance amongst the heavily populated board. That said don't waste the time and energy trying to repair it because the easiest most effective path is to substitute a known good. However, these types of Power Inverters do not usually have multiple separate boards so the user needs to replace the entire Power Inverter. Disassembly of it is relatively simple using basic hand tools. You must remove all power and wait ten minutes. Once you remove the case: Locate the the DC in circuit. Follow it closely with the eye and nose; your looking for three easily identifiable observations 1) Smell for fresh oil and or burnt smell. Often, fish oil is used. 2.) Look and feel for the thin clear oil closely. 3) Look for Carbon Tracking between the circuits/traces on the board. 4) Remove oil by wiping the board down with alcohol and paper towels. Remove all carbon tracks using a rubber pencil eraser. Replace the leaking capacitor. Hopefully the stray voltage didn't damage any diodes. The diodes and capacitors are easy to test if you are capable of removing components and soldering. 😊
Thats great information brother! Mahalo!🤙
I do not see a HV spike that would trip inverter until you switch it on, Then it does some weird spikes when inverter acts up then shuts off. Starting to look more like a inverter problem , just swap inverters. if same problem than you know battery. without measuring each cell ,it is hard to say if it is a balance problem.
The charge controller has no problem regulating the output voltage when there is no load, which is why you don't see any spikes when there is no load. You turn on the inverter, however, and start running stuff with it, and now suddenly the charge controller has to follow the load in order to maintain its target voltage.
Charge controllers are not good at following loads, which is why you need a battery connected up to soak up the differences. But if the battery BMS has disconnected charging, the battery's cells can't soak up any over-voltage (which would require charging)... they can only soak up under-voltage (by discharging). Hence you see spikes.
When the battery BMS is operating normally and fully connecting the battery to the system, the voltage can only go up or down relatively slowly. Though it might still look a bit messy on the graph because the voltage is moving between the charge curve and the discharge curve, it won't exceed the appropriate point on the charging curve and thus will not over-volt. It can only push up the voltage above that point very slowly. This gives the charge controller plenty of time to react.
-Matt
I'm thinking inverter too atm🤙
Copied that too! Such great stuff Matt..Mahalo as always🤙
Great video
🤙
Inverter is almost certainly toast.
if the battery charges to 58v it should be fully balanced unless the BMS is faulty, which is very unlikely.
I am curious to see what you find out with this problem.
Sounds like inverter to me..
I think so too🤙
Not sure but maybe the battery is 15S and not the usual 16S and the absorb voltage is too high and you are getting a BMS over voltage disconnect.
I think the inverter is toast. I’ve had similar issues with inverters where they start operating oddly
aloha.
I'm leaning towards that too! Aloha!🤙
Use a dvom to get the true voltage with a load
Need amps to go up volts absorbing for 6 to 8 hours .. like 13.54 volts absorbing for 8 hours
Do you have a 48v charger that could provide a constant voltage to charge the battery for 24 hours to ensure it balances the cells? I'm guessing the battery doesn't have a communication port to connect a pc and view each cell voltage.
Or put a second 51.2V LiFePO4 battery in parallel with the PowerQueen. If the problem goes away, its the BMS in the PowerQueen.
👌
Could it be that there is an imbalance so that one cell exceeds the maximum and the BMS disconnects the entire battery?
if you can remove the cover and measure the cells separately with a multimeter because you cannot read the volts on the cells via the BMS?
it is enough that one or some cells are too high voltage so that the protection kicks in while others are still in the flat phase.
Then you can set how fast it should charge to about 5-10 Amps so that it doesn't give full charge all day when it's enough that it's full when the sun goes down
Not to nit-pick, but is this really considered "balancing" or is it "calibrating"? Balancing is typically used as a term for balancing raw cells.
Like I said, nit-pick.
The BMS is balancing the raw cells, but it only does so for cells in the exponential part of the charge curve (roughly above 3.45V). If you don't have access to BMS settings the industry standard is to charge to 3.55V/cell (3.55 x 16 = 56.8V) to ensure that the BMS in the battery is able to balance the raw cells.
Mahalo Matt!🤙
Would a Ground Help the Inverter any ?
Still betting on inverter problem. Cnswipower makes great inverters.
🤙
🤙
Does Power Queen has bluetooth that let you look at the Voltage of each cell?
is that from victron smart shunt ?
No, shunt is the qwork...all the victron data is from cc🤙
Stop it. Use your 48 v battery. Full resting charge voltage is 53.92v and absorption is at 56.8v for 60 to 120 minutes max. There is no need to keep operating in the top 3% of SOC. Go ahead and exercise the battery from as low as 20% up to 100% SOC. It will not be a problem. You are likely bumping up against the over-voltage limits +/- with the help of the charge controller. Lower the absorption voltage on your charge controller to 55.8v if necessary.
I'm new so sorry if this is a dumb question. But doesn't power queens bms supposed to properly balance the cells? I know from reading if you run in series and the batteries don't have communications back and forth, but I thought one battery was a no issue with balancing.
Yes, but it will only start balancing the cells above a certain voltage. If the charge target is set too low, the BMS never has a chance to balance the cells. And if the target voltage is not held long enough before dropping to float, the BMS might not have enough time to keep the cells in balance.
The charge curve is too flat to be able to balance the cells at lower voltages. The BMS would wind up either not making any progress or making the wrong choice (unbalancing the cells instead of balancing them).
@@junkerzn7312 Right, but he started having problems because he had the voltage where it needed to be, and as a result the converter was tripping. After, in order to lose the faults, he walked back the voltage and it started working.
@@scotth9984 If I remember right he had the target voltage set lower on that system for like a year before problems began developing, then began walking back the voltage to try to solve them but they kept reappearing at lower and lower voltages.
My assumption is, and the evidence seems to be, that the battery just got more and more out of balance because the voltage was too low. How badly out of balance, we don't know yet. Assuming the BMS is working properly, an extremely out of balance battery can still take weeks to correct with the BMS's passive balancer.
Short of ripping the battery open and measuring the individual cell voltages while it is being held at the target voltage, or the battery finally returning to proper balance on its own now that a proper target voltage is being applied, we can't really make any conclusions.
It is possible to determine if the battery is making progress by taking a picture of the graph, with the horizontal resolution set to 30 minutes or so, within an hour or two of the battery becoming full for the first time each day. One can determine the voltage during the charge cycle where the BMS drops out and it instantly shoots up to the target voltage. If that BMS drop-out voltage is steadily increasing day after day, then the battery is making progress.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 Thank you for the detailed response I appreciate it
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