Believed for 47 years, raised in the church. It was so hard to find out it was a lie last year, let alone having to tell my husband and 5 kids. Thank you for your scholarship and time producing these
I’m with you 🎉 I’m 68 and found truth 4 years ago! I got divorced after 23 years due to my stubbornness to listen to the real truth. 3 of my 4 kids are out. I hope my story helps others. 😮 Thanks to reading 35 books and listening to almost all of the Mormonism Live and Discussions. Thank you Bill and RFM❤
Your best one yet!!! This one took me over 10 hours to watch between watching, re-watching, looking up definitions, and going off on my own tangents of deep diving because of your content! Some things went over my head so I had to decipher what was being said. Wow! I haven't even looked at your resources yet either. I'm glad there were people watching who were defending the church...because that's usually the first step to learning the truth. Genius prsentation.
I appreciated the caller that said he felt the spirit less as he read the Book of Mormon. I also read it since leaving. I wanted to mark all the differences so I essentially read it twice - the original and the modern side by side each day for the last year. It was amazing how different it is now. I saw so many issues and horrible things that I never saw before. I would get cranky on days when I read a lot
Absolute truth. People forget that Joseph Smith had a limp from muscle loss from the staph infection he got in his bone I'm sure it didn't grow back if you know anybody that had staph infection in their bone or their muscle it is a week limb.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again every time it comes up: if JST was a "commentary," and if the Book of Moses was part of JST, and if the Book of Moses is canonized (it is), then the Book of Moses is, by definition, the Philosophies of Men Mingled With Scripture.
As Apostle James Talmage once said, "The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding." Thank You guys for your research, using logic and reason to discuss the problems the LDS church faces with it's truth claims. Another excellent episode.
@@grayman7208 Good job... you are learning how to write your own Pseudepigrapha, like Joseph did! Did you learn how to do that from the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham?
“Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” - Joseph Smith.. soo. ... thats the playbook
I'm a lacuna apologist. Let Terryl say lacuna! The academic literature about ancient documents is littered with lacunae. And actually, laguna (Italian) and lagoon do come from lacuna (Latin), since a lacuna is a ditch, cavity, or gap. If Utah's most famous theme park can be named after ditch water, Terryl can say lacuna!
Modern prophets refuse to let academia influence them, instead, work to control them. Meanwhile Givens demonstrates to them how Joseph built a whole church with the help of scholars. Is that "irony" or just "ironic"? 🤷
1:39:00 I didn't know about Givens' comments on this when I did my video responding to apologetic claims about Joseph's Enoch, but I totally noticed this textual dependence, too! My argument in that video was that Joseph's Enoch shows weak correspondence to the Enochic literature and strong correspondence to other writings of Joseph Smith. The relative theologies, christologies, and philosophies all suggest that Joseph's Enoch could not have been written before September 1830, which aligns with a naturalistic, historical model.
This episode is nothing short of remarkable! Look! If esteemed LDS historian Givens is being so bold as to use words like bricolage, myth, imaginings, etc, then the jig is up.
Q: Have you fine gentlemen considered making an “idea map” (mind map, thought map, whatever description you prefer) to visually show the origins of where the evidence most strongly suggests JS pulled key Mormon doctrinal ideas? There may be some software now that can do that for you more easily. I think the person that makes or builds that product AND explains it to the masses will do a great work to expose Mormonism as a fraud (beyond what you’re already doing).
Bricolage is actually embedded in the language of the temple with the mark of the compass and “All truth circumscribed into one great whole.” Joseph was open about the fact that he used that approach when he said, in effect, that Mormonism is taking everything good and true thing wherever you find it and adopting it. It’s not a bad personal approach, honestly, and was my favorite part of the temple once upon a time. The problem is that Joseph claimed the right to creatively syncretise for everyone else…and then insisted it came straight from the mouth of God. I appreciate that Givens is trying to grapple with the unavoidable facts and salvage what’s left for people who have already done the history deep dive. And even though I have left the One True Church, I do think there are other reasons to stay even if you’re not an all-in believer. I have family members who don’t believe but stay for the community and others who stay because they feel that attending encourages them to be better people, to serve and think about others when they’d otherwise be more self-absorbed. Others stay to support family members and because they in turn feel supported and loved at church. I know that’s not everyone’s experience, but things aren’t as simple as you make it sound.
The month that sec 89 was written, a still in Kirkland was destroyed by saints, who came to JS and asked him to inquire of God what they should believe, since they also belonged to a temperance organization. 89 is almost an exact copy of temperance unions' policies.
I think Grant Palmer well succinctly summed up JS on two different occasions by saying “JS was both a sponge and a mirror of his environment “ and, “as one who has studied JS for the last forty years, JS was a con man through and through “
And it was just a day or two when the temperance society of Kirtland came out with their version of health principles when section 89 was written…not by Smith but by F.G. Williams who was by the way a Thomasonian physician, a group who espoused the same beliefs as others of the time…ie coffee and tea are bad for you. No science backed, no God backed information both organizations just plagiarizing the opinions of the day.
You mean the Joe Smith who had a 3rd grade education and could never have written a book, had a library large enough he could make a library and someone today is looking for all the books?? Hmmm. Strange. Something doesn’t fit.
I watched Julia Sweeney's "Letting go of God" and I remember taking Bible classes and finding the Bible scary. She asked the Father. He said it's all Myths
Yo Bill and RFM: In this video, I didn't hear you guys or Teryl Givens mention the book "Philosophy Of A Future State" as being one of Joseph's Smith possible sources of "inspiration": "The Philosophy of a Future State There is a book published in 1829 by Thomas Dick entitled The Philosophy of a Future State. Joseph Smith owned a copy of the book and Oliver Cowdery quoted some lengthy excerpts from the book in the December 1836 Messenger and Advocate. Klaus Hansen, an LDS scholar, stated: The progressive aspect of Joseph’s theology, as well as its cosmology, while in a general way compatible with antebellum thought, bears some remarkable resemblances to Thomas Dick’s ‘Philosophy of a Future State’. Hansen continues: Some very striking parallels to Smith’s theology suggest that the similarities between the two may be more than coincidental. Dick’s lengthy book, an ambitious treatise on astronomy and metaphysics, proposed the idea that matter is eternal and indestructible and rejected the notion of a creation ex nihilo. Much of the book dealt with the infinity of the universe, made up of innumerable stars spread out over immeasurable distances. Dick speculated that many of these stars were peopled by ‘various orders of intelligences’ and that these intelligences were ‘progressive beings’ in various stages of evolution toward perfection. In the Book of Abraham, part of which consists of a treatise on astronomy and cosmology, eternal beings of various orders and stages of development likewise populate numerous stars. They, too, are called ‘intelligences.’ Dick speculated that ‘the systems of the universe revolve around a common centre...the throne of God.’ In the Book of Abraham, one star named Kolob ‘was nearest unto the throne of God.’ Other stars, in ever diminishing order, were placed in increasing distances from this center. - MORMONISM AND THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, P.79-80, 110" I learned of this about 25 years ago early on in studying my way out of the church. The most important thing is that Joseph Smith owned a copy of the book, and Oliver Cowdery quoted from it. So Smith and Cowdery were well of its content. This is very similar to how Smith drew his concepts of the three kingdoms of heaven from the Swedish theologian Emmanuel Swedenborg---whom Smith also quoted, which shows that he was aware of his book.
A part I would add to the vision portion that highlights Joseph’s overt plagiarism. This was the tipping point that led me into re-examining the church. I was shocked the first time I read the visionary accounts of Asa Wilde and others who claimed to see God and Jesus Christ in the 1820’s. Not only do these accounts pre-date Joseph’s by actual recorded date but the amount of borrowing in both frases and quality of the experience is shocking. I had to put them all in a word doc and highlight Joseph’s vision every time there was something similarly worded or borrowed. By the end I was left with almost nothing original. This is a huge problem for the church’s claim to authority because you are forced to admit that these people saw God. Otherwise how did they happen to get everything right when they wouldn’t have known about Joseph’s experience at that time? Which makes no sense because the things these individuals proceeded to teach in years following differ wildly from what Joseph Smith taught following his own “vision”. The amount of things you’d have to concede to is endlessly conflicting
About the difference in the 1832 and 1838 versions of the first vision, I think it is key to keep the audience in mind. The 1832 version was what Smith put in his journal (for some odd reason not until 12 years after the alleged event) while the 1838 version is what would be published to the world. THAT'S WHY the 1838 version puts Smith's conclusion that the true church could not be found on the earth into God's mouth. So, when it was published to the world, he could say, "Hey, God said it, not me. Why that NEVER EVEN OCCURRED TO ME.". Little wonder that lying for the Lord was and continues to be the most enduring principle of Mormonism.
"Joseph was an eclectic, syncretic innovator, not a systematic theologian. Many of his religious inspirations were largely gleaned from his nineteenth-century environment, ruminated over, confirmed by what he said was God's spirit, then refined and enhanced through on incremental process of trial-and-error development that in many ways is still on-going among his successors. Believers refer to this process as continuous revelation; non-believers as the natural expression of human intellect and reason." (Richard Van Wagner, Natural Born Seer, 2016, p. viii)
“The pearl of greatest price” www.amazon.com/Pearl-Greatest-Price-Mormonisms-Controversial/dp/0190603860?dplnkId=fec900fd-c68a-45ea-bb74-505292bac864&nodl=1
Bricolage is a Spanish word that translates to "do-it-yourself" or "DIY" in English. It can also refer to the creation of a work of art using a variety of available materials or mixed media. Google definition.
Love the info, truly. I just wonder if you can present the evidence and then state your conclusion. But there was starting of conclusions a lot on here.
@MormonDiscussion I don't disagree with the conclusions at all bill, and I thank you for the program. I love your work. Sorry my criticism was small compared to the Info you presented.
"Givens would say Joseph was inspired to 'borrow' these particular ideas as opposed to others." It's as if the Mormon god who inspires all this stuff is actually a lying spirit, and the people who manage to get the closest to this god are the ones who learn to lie with the greatest degree of complexity and sophistication.
Thanks for your hard work on presenting and interpreting this for us. Teryl seems like he is cut from the same cloth as Brian Hales, great at researching but naive and clueless at interpreting the data.
Joseph did not write his revised Bible, including the Book of Moses, by himself. Sidney Rigdon who claimed to be one of the greatest Bible scholars of his time worked with Joseph in creating the work and almost certainly should get credit (or blame) for many, if not all, of the biblical borrowings. Givens knows this but is once again using his intellect and knowledge to deceive and mislead Mormons to keep them in the flock. Baaa, baaa, baaaa.
Be that as it may the church that he created changed in many ways and is now the best organization for teaching the principles of happiness and all things good. For anyone who has experienced it the community of the church worldwide cannot be matched by any in the world.
Look at mormonism collectively in this research mormondiscussionpodcast.org/helpful-resources-2/ and allow your need for it to be true to not take precedent. Isnt the problems indicative of a fraud
![LDS Church Fires Back at American Primeval [Jan 27th 2025]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RWuGOf9WKgs/mqdefault.jpg)
![LDS Church Fires Back at American Primeval [Jan 27th 2025]](/img/tr.png)
Believed for 47 years, raised in the church. It was so hard to find out it was a lie last year, let alone having to tell my husband and 5 kids. Thank you for your scholarship and time producing these
I’m with you 🎉
I’m 68 and found truth 4 years ago! I got divorced after 23 years due to my stubbornness to listen to the real truth. 3 of my 4 kids are out.
I hope my story helps others. 😮
Thanks to reading 35 books and listening to almost all of the Mormonism Live and Discussions. Thank you Bill and RFM❤
Your best one yet!!! This one took me over 10 hours to watch between watching, re-watching, looking up definitions, and going off on my own tangents of deep diving because of your content! Some things went over my head so I had to decipher what was being said. Wow! I haven't even looked at your resources yet either. I'm glad there were people watching who were defending the church...because that's usually the first step to learning the truth. Genius prsentation.
I appreciated the caller that said he felt the spirit less as he read the Book of Mormon. I also read it since leaving. I wanted to mark all the differences so I essentially read it twice - the original and the modern side by side each day for the last year. It was amazing how different it is now. I saw so many issues and horrible things that I never saw before. I would get cranky on days when I read a lot
I recently reread the BoM. I hadn't realized how much focus there is on hell and damnation.
Here's how Joseph Smith created Mormonism: He didn't wanna work for a living.
Got that right!!
Absolute truth. People forget that Joseph Smith had a limp from muscle loss from the staph infection he got in his bone I'm sure it didn't grow back if you know anybody that had staph infection in their bone or their muscle it is a week limb.
That was my conclusion also after reading Rough Stone Rolling
Karl Marx is guilty of the same thing.
How or why? lol. Plus access to lots of woman
Top drawer content as usual. Speaking of drawers, Joseph Smith never met a set of drawers he didn’t want to get into.🤣
I've said this before, and I'll say it again every time it comes up: if JST was a "commentary," and if the Book of Moses was part of JST, and if the Book of Moses is canonized (it is), then the Book of Moses is, by definition, the Philosophies of Men Mingled With Scripture.
Indeed. Especially the parts about the decendants of Cain.
As Apostle James Talmage once said, "The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding." Thank You guys for your research, using logic and reason to discuss the problems the LDS church faces with it's truth claims. Another excellent episode.
he also said ... "i recognize bullshit when i see it."
and this channel puts out a lot of bullshit.
@@grayman7208 you should start your own anti bullshit channel to defend your position. I enjoy different perspectives
@@grayman7208 Good job... you are learning how to write your own Pseudepigrapha, like Joseph did! Did you learn how to do that from the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham?
Thanks!
You bet!
“Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” - Joseph Smith.. soo. ... thats the playbook
That makes absolute sense. Mormon more good
I'm a lacuna apologist. Let Terryl say lacuna! The academic literature about ancient documents is littered with lacunae. And actually, laguna (Italian) and lagoon do come from lacuna (Latin), since a lacuna is a ditch, cavity, or gap. If Utah's most famous theme park can be named after ditch water, Terryl can say lacuna!
Modern prophets refuse to let academia influence them, instead, work to control them. Meanwhile Givens demonstrates to them how Joseph built a whole church with the help of scholars. Is that "irony" or just "ironic"? 🤷
Within ten years, it will be an eye opening time for many.
If in fact, that is the case about not joining any of the denominations. Why then did Joseph later on join the Methodist Church.?
1:39:00 I didn't know about Givens' comments on this when I did my video responding to apologetic claims about Joseph's Enoch, but I totally noticed this textual dependence, too! My argument in that video was that Joseph's Enoch shows weak correspondence to the Enochic literature and strong correspondence to other writings of Joseph Smith. The relative theologies, christologies, and philosophies all suggest that Joseph's Enoch could not have been written before September 1830, which aligns with a naturalistic, historical model.
Great content. Thanks for all your hard work and sharing Given's video.
This episode is nothing short of remarkable! Look! If esteemed LDS historian Givens is being so bold as to use words like bricolage, myth, imaginings, etc, then the jig is up.
This episode was so informational. Thank you for all your efforts to put this together!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Q: Have you fine gentlemen considered making an “idea map” (mind map, thought map, whatever description you prefer) to visually show the origins of where the evidence most strongly suggests JS pulled key Mormon doctrinal ideas? There may be some software now that can do that for you more easily. I think the person that makes or builds that product AND explains it to the masses will do a great work to expose Mormonism as a fraud (beyond what you’re already doing).
Implementation of your suggestion certainly would be of interest to many I’m sure.
In terms of importance, this session has gotta be on the Mormon Discussions top ten.
He lied and then everyone went for it. Eventually he believed his own lies. With luck they hit critical thresholds to survive over time.
Bricolage is actually embedded in the language of the temple with the mark of the compass and “All truth circumscribed into one great whole.” Joseph was open about the fact that he used that approach when he said, in effect, that Mormonism is taking everything good and true thing wherever you find it and adopting it. It’s not a bad personal approach, honestly, and was my favorite part of the temple once upon a time. The problem is that Joseph claimed the right to creatively syncretise for everyone else…and then insisted it came straight from the mouth of God. I appreciate that Givens is trying to grapple with the unavoidable facts and salvage what’s left for people who have already done the history deep dive. And even though I have left the One True Church, I do think there are other reasons to stay even if you’re not an all-in believer. I have family members who don’t believe but stay for the community and others who stay because they feel that attending encourages them to be better people, to serve and think about others when they’d otherwise be more self-absorbed. Others stay to support family members and because they in turn feel supported and loved at church. I know that’s not everyone’s experience, but things aren’t as simple as you make it sound.
Great episode.
Extremely good episode
The month that sec 89 was written, a still in Kirkland was destroyed by saints, who came to JS and asked him to inquire of God what they should believe, since they also belonged to a temperance organization. 89 is almost an exact copy of temperance unions' policies.
I think Grant Palmer well succinctly summed up JS on two different occasions by saying “JS was both a sponge and a mirror of his environment “ and, “as one who has studied JS for the last forty years, JS was a con man through and through “
Well I’ll just have to “shit a bricolage!” 💩😂
And it was just a day or two when the temperance society of Kirtland came out with their version of health principles when section 89 was written…not by Smith but by F.G. Williams who was by the way a Thomasonian physician, a group who espoused the same beliefs as others of the time…ie coffee and tea are bad for you. No science backed, no God backed information both organizations just plagiarizing the opinions of the day.
You mean the Joe Smith who had a 3rd grade education and could never have written a book, had a library large enough he could make a library and someone today is looking for all the books?? Hmmm. Strange. Something doesn’t fit.
are you suggesting that, as an adult, Smith did not have a collection of books?
Great video gentlemen. The information is spot on. Im so greatful the Kingpin GOD led me to your UA-cam channel. All hail AI algorithm.
God will not be mocked!!!
Okay, I'm gonna mock the Mormon god
As a member of the Neal Maxwell Institute, the unnecessary use of big words is likely a requirement for any book or talk by Mr. Givens.
I watched Julia Sweeney's "Letting go of God" and I remember taking Bible classes and finding the Bible scary. She asked the Father. He said it's all Myths
Best quote of the episode RFM “There is nothing in the BoM that we can’t learn in the Bible.”
Brilliant episode. Thank you for the time and research.
This was amazing
Your very best!
@3:20. Is "To Serve Man" a veiled reference to the Twilight Zone episode?
Yes
Yo Bill and RFM: In this video, I didn't hear you guys or Teryl Givens mention the book "Philosophy Of A Future State" as being one of Joseph's Smith possible sources of "inspiration":
"The Philosophy of a Future State
There is a book published in 1829 by Thomas Dick entitled The Philosophy of a Future State. Joseph Smith owned a copy of the book and Oliver Cowdery quoted some lengthy excerpts from the book in the December 1836 Messenger and Advocate.
Klaus Hansen, an LDS scholar, stated:
The progressive aspect of Joseph’s theology, as well as its cosmology, while in a general way compatible with antebellum thought, bears some remarkable resemblances to Thomas Dick’s ‘Philosophy of a Future State’.
Hansen continues:
Some very striking parallels to Smith’s theology suggest that the similarities between the two may be more than coincidental. Dick’s lengthy book, an ambitious treatise on astronomy and metaphysics, proposed the idea that matter is eternal and indestructible and rejected the notion of a creation ex nihilo. Much of the book dealt with the infinity of the universe, made up of innumerable stars spread out over immeasurable distances. Dick speculated that many of these stars were peopled by ‘various orders of intelligences’ and that these intelligences were ‘progressive beings’ in various stages of evolution toward perfection. In the Book of Abraham, part of which consists of a treatise on astronomy and cosmology, eternal beings of various orders and stages of development likewise populate numerous stars. They, too, are called ‘intelligences.’ Dick speculated that ‘the systems of the universe revolve around a common centre...the throne of God.’ In the Book of Abraham, one star named Kolob ‘was nearest unto the throne of God.’ Other stars, in ever diminishing order, were placed in increasing distances from this center.
- MORMONISM AND THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, P.79-80, 110"
I learned of this about 25 years ago early on in studying my way out of the church. The most important thing is that Joseph Smith owned a copy of the book, and Oliver Cowdery quoted from it. So Smith and Cowdery were well of its content. This is very similar to how Smith drew his concepts of the three kingdoms of heaven from the Swedish theologian Emmanuel Swedenborg---whom Smith also quoted, which shows that he was aware of his book.
A part I would add to the vision portion that highlights Joseph’s overt plagiarism. This was the tipping point that led me into re-examining the church. I was shocked the first time I read the visionary accounts of Asa Wilde and others who claimed to see God and Jesus Christ in the 1820’s. Not only do these accounts pre-date Joseph’s by actual recorded date but the amount of borrowing in both frases and quality of the experience is shocking. I had to put them all in a word doc and highlight Joseph’s vision every time there was something similarly worded or borrowed. By the end I was left with almost nothing original. This is a huge problem for the church’s claim to authority because you are forced to admit that these people saw God. Otherwise how did they happen to get everything right when they wouldn’t have known about Joseph’s experience at that time? Which makes no sense because the things these individuals proceeded to teach in years following differ wildly from what Joseph Smith taught following his own “vision”. The amount of things you’d have to concede to is endlessly conflicting
About the difference in the 1832 and 1838 versions of the first vision, I think it is key to keep the audience in mind. The 1832 version was what Smith put in his journal (for some odd reason not until 12 years after the alleged event) while the 1838 version is what would be published to the world. THAT'S WHY the 1838 version puts Smith's conclusion that the true church could not be found on the earth into God's mouth. So, when it was published to the world, he could say, "Hey, God said it, not me. Why that NEVER EVEN OCCURRED TO ME.". Little wonder that lying for the Lord was and continues to be the most enduring principle of Mormonism.
"Joseph was an eclectic, syncretic innovator, not a systematic theologian. Many of his religious inspirations were largely gleaned from his nineteenth-century environment, ruminated over, confirmed by what he said was God's spirit, then refined and enhanced through on incremental process of trial-and-error development that in many ways is still on-going among his successors. Believers refer to this process as continuous revelation; non-believers as the natural expression of human intellect and reason." (Richard Van Wagner, Natural Born Seer, 2016, p. viii)
Sidney Rigdon wrote the B of M. Joseph and Sidney were partners.
I agree Rigdon played a huge role in the Church, and in educating Joseph, but the Spaulding-Rigdon theory is a waste of time. Didn't happen.
@ Rigdon was a biblical expert.
@@timberrr1126Is a biblical expert an oxymoron or an insult?😂
Joseph and Sidney were tarred and feathered together, proving their responsibility in creating the Church.
@ solid evidence that Mormon truth claims is a sticky mess and that birds of a feather really stick together🪶🪿
Which of Terryl Givens books or papers does this come from?
“The pearl of greatest price”
www.amazon.com/Pearl-Greatest-Price-Mormonisms-Controversial/dp/0190603860?dplnkId=fec900fd-c68a-45ea-bb74-505292bac864&nodl=1
Bricolage is a Spanish word that translates to "do-it-yourself" or "DIY" in English. It can also refer to the creation of a work of art using a variety of available materials or mixed media. Google definition.
Love the info, truly. I just wonder if you can present the evidence and then state your conclusion. But there was starting of conclusions a lot on here.
What other rational conclusion is there?
@MormonDiscussion I don't disagree with the conclusions at all bill, and I thank you for the program. I love your work. Sorry my criticism was small compared to the Info you presented.
Oh wow. Everything you have mentioned about givens reminds me of the episode of Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia - the one where Charlie is a genius.
Is it Givens’s bookshelf that’s breaking under the weight of Joseph’s books?
So good
"Givens would say Joseph was inspired to 'borrow' these particular ideas as opposed to others."
It's as if the Mormon god who inspires all this stuff is actually a lying spirit, and the people who manage to get the closest to this god are the ones who learn to lie with the greatest degree of complexity and sophistication.
“Hopelessly Pompous” nice!
Love the dramatic entro!
Great program - thanks! Is it true that missionaries get a financial reward for conversions they accomplish?
Lacuna matata: no worries about unnecessarily complicated words
Thanks for your hard work on presenting and interpreting this for us. Teryl seems like he is cut from the same cloth as Brian Hales, great at researching but naive and clueless at interpreting the data.
Being a church member requires faith. Being exmo doesn’t require faith, because facts prove reason for loosing faith.
Good god worst music ever.
Ear Punishment.
Ratings killer.
Nasty Noise to make you regret clicking.
out of new york babylon
2003 does feel like 200 years ago, RFM
WOW
joseph smith was smoking to isaiah 4 say they will be smoke
Joseph did not write his revised Bible, including the Book of Moses, by himself. Sidney Rigdon who claimed to be one of the greatest Bible scholars of his time worked with Joseph in creating the work and almost certainly should get credit (or blame) for many, if not all, of the biblical borrowings. Givens knows this but is once again using his intellect and knowledge to deceive and mislead Mormons to keep them in the flock. Baaa, baaa, baaaa.
Say it with me...Bricolage!!
🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪
Be that as it may the church that he created changed in many ways and is now the best organization for teaching the principles of happiness and all things good. For anyone who has experienced it the community of the church worldwide cannot be matched by any in the world.
Sure Jan
If that were true, and people loved it so much, then activity rates wouldn't be 38%.
Givens is not difficult to read for this attorney and not for me either ..
I think you guys are a little too anti .. you don't have to call it stealing .. look how long it took you to find this stuff ..
Look at mormonism collectively in this research mormondiscussionpodcast.org/helpful-resources-2/ and allow your need for it to be true to not take precedent. Isnt the problems indicative of a fraud
LOL
horse sh*t.
but keep trying.
Joe? Is that you?