I was the YW President in a ward in N Florida. During a stake conference, the youth were corralled together so one of the Stake Presidency could meet with them. He told them that no matter what, you follow your leaders. If they tell you to jump off a cliff, you obey! I raised my hand and said, don’t you mean that we should follow our personal inspiration? He got upset with me, and told me I was wrong. He continued to state that we should ALWAYS follow our leaders, and if they were wrong, that will be on them, but we will be rewarded for our obedience in following. When we separated and went back to our YW room, I told the girls that what he said was NOT correct. They had the right to personal revelation, and should absolutely NEVER follow ANYONE blindly! I was released soon after.
You know that line," We believe the Bible to be the word of God,....up to were it is correctly translated." Well I follow leaders who stand on scripture of the Bible. "IT IS WRITTEN" supersedes peoples feelings. So glad you took a stand. By grace are you saved and not of works. When they add "after doing all you can." Just by adding a little bit you completely contradict the word of God. ❤
Elizabeth, you are so right and courageous! Solemnly read below Bishop John D. Lee’s confession of the tragic consequences when he subordinated his conscience by obediently submitting to his Temple Covenants. Fifty-five Priesthood holders that Lee lead did the same, resulting in the murder at Mountain Meadows of more than 120 men, women and children of the Francher wagon train. Lee wrote: “I am called a vile criminal and have been sentenced to be shot for deeds committed by myself and others, nearly twenty years ago. I have never willingly committed a crime. I have acted my religion, nothing more. I have obeyed the orders of the Church. I have acted as I was commanded to do by my superiors, and if I have committed acts that justify my execution, what should be the fate of the leaders in the Church who taught me to believe I could not and would not commit sin while obeying orders of the priesthood? My sins, if any are the result of doing what I was commanded to do by those who were my superiors in authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Endowed Church members might not realize that temple Covenants, like the Law of Obedience, attacks their free agency and conscience.
Brigham Young said don't do what I said because I said it. Find out for yourself. I had a bishop tell me something wrong. I ceased to sustain him and I was greatly blessed. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Because of that bishop I made a change. I am still an active LDS member but when my wife had surgery recently, her hospital bill was over $100,000. My cost, $20. Thank you, Bishop. If a church leader tells you something wrong, it's his responsibility. We have agency and the responsibility to do what is correct.
Those girls learned a good lesson! Can you imagine the mess this thinking makes !! What if a church leader told the girl to run off with him? We are in a day we HAVE to have personal revelation !! Even Pres Nelson said that as an apostle …. But then later told us to be good little global citizens and go along with the NWO shots…. We MUST ALL LEARN & teach each soul to LISTEN TO GOD FIRST!! And Good for you!!
My son was married in the temple last year. I mentioned that it was now allowable to get married civilly first, which would enable me to attend. He didn't know about this, and they went ahead and got married in the temple first, with a ring ceremony afterwards. Changing policy is one thing, getting members on board is another... That said, when I was married in the temple in 1984, neither of our parents were able to attend. It seemed like I got some payback.
I'm sorry. As a former faithful, born and raised LDS member, I can't imagine. It is true- policy doesn't automatically change beliefs and social perception of commitment and value.
I would not play into this manipulation personally. But, I would get married civilly first, and I would not get married in the temple till I knew I married the right person and it was a forever relationship or was going to work out. The divorce rate is still 60% in the church they say the temple marriages are less but I don't buy it. Temple marriages get divorces all the time. Although I am speaking from experience I was married in the temple later divorced. If I would have waited a little longer I wouldn't have made those covenants that are going to send me to hell now
@@Jsppydays they will not send you to hell. The covenants aren't real. You have the ability to cancel them in your heart, vocally, with intent, and also through removing your records of you choose- which they consider a cancelation of those ordinances. Ask me how I know. 😉 just kidding. But seriously, please don't torment yourself. They don't have the copyright/intellectual property/trademaek on God and human salvation.
I have an experience regarding my child’s baptism & “choice”. I was a TBM ..it almost broke my shelf at that time.. other major things have since broke my shelf. I’m “gratefully” out!!
When I was mormon, my husband and I chose to get married civilly first, due to there being so few of our extended families who would be able to attend the temple. We were “temple worthy” (that term is super cringy), but this was a choice we made, and we waited 12 months to attend the temple to be sealed. The amount of judgement we received from members was astounding, for the choice we made. They obviously thought we’d “messed up”, even though we hadn’t. I think by this time my shelf had started cracking in some big ways, so I really didn’t care what other members thought.
My wife and I did the same thing, and I didn't give a shit what other people thought. You shouldn't either. Don't let people in your family or ward or neighborhood brow beat you into doing anything you don't want to do. Example: if you get a calling in your ward, don't listen to the directive "you don't ever say no to a calling". If you don't want it don't accept. In an interview with a member of the Stake Presidency, I was asked what I wear to bed at night. He didn't need to know something that personal, and I told him so !
You may be interested in learning where the term "worthy" originated. Smith and his inner circle of friends called themselves the "worthies", to set themselves apart as better than the everyday rank and file members, due to their special secret knowledge, and their European royal ancestry.
1:00:29 In Brazil the church had no official authority to marry a couple only the State could authorize. In 1987 I attended the wedding of a former companion and he and his wife went to be sealed the following day. The bride wore a strapless dress because she hadn’t been endowed. The rules were obviously different in the US.
I have been in the spirit world and can say I know my Father lives and that I called on his son Jesus aname and he Saved me from a big mistake of over dosing on drugs, God knows it happened so how am I supposed to deny it God forbid! I was young. Never felt more loved and forgiven! A peace that surpasses all understanding just like the Bible says! I believe in miracles and I pray that for us all until we come to a perfect knowledge of the truth and I love it ♥️
At approx the 2:10:00 when you guys are guessing what the next big change might be. I'll give my 2 cents. I think that Young Women will be granted the privilege to pass the Sacrament emblems alongside the Young Men. There is some historical presidence. I believe during the late 1910s during the end of WW1 and during the Spanish Flu the LDS church allowed YW to pass the Sacrament for a brief time.
Back in early 60's the handbook stated anyone could prepare the sacrament but only priesthood could bless. I don't remember what it said about passing it though. That way I could help the boy fill the water trays.
@ChrisS-dt3vq Agreed. The D&C only says that Priest's and Elders have the responsibility to "administer" the Sacrament. So the "preparation" beforehand and "passing" after the Sacrament Prayer could be performed by anyone. It kinda is already happening. The whole ward passes the trays around in a packed chapel anyway.
The Ongoing Restoration sure seems to know a lot less about things these days. You'd think the knowledge and accuracy would be increasing. Instead, platitudes and vagueries occupy the spaces left from all the vacated Truth Claims.
On the garments subject, they even tell you in the temple when the garment is first presented that "it will be a shield and a protection to you against the power of the Destroyer until you have finished your work here on earth." Is that not a thing anymore? If we're expected to take the Tower of Babel story literally, they can hardly blame us for not knowing when not to take other stuff literally.
One of the callers brought up the situation of a divorced woman having to remain sealed to her ex, who has been cheating on her. I am in that situation; and when I was still a TBM, this was a very scary concept that I'd be forced to spend eternity with my ex and his affair partner.
My 2nd husband was accused of molesting his grandchildren 2 months into our marriage. He ended up in jail, was excommunicated & I divorced him. Afterwards, I was told by church leaders that even though my ex was no longer a member I still 'belonged' to him. If he was rebaptized, "all blessings being restored" meant his sealing to me, whether I wanted it or not. I addressed with church leaders that this stand violates women's agency and treats them like a piece of property, but to no avail.
@ModernAnasazi Yes! Exactly this. And this adds additional unnecessary anxiety to an already stressful situation. You are stressed about your entire eternity being hellish, no matter how "worthy" you are personally, according to the church leaders.
@@ModernAnasazi They are without understanding -- sealings in the day of Joseph was actually adoption-- maybe look up the teaching of Denver Snuffer? You’ll love !
The LDS church claims "plain and precious things" were removed on purpose from the Bible. Now in real time right before our eyes they are removing plain and precious things from their own teachings and their temple ceremony.
“The VISIONS and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth..we’ll sing and we’ll shout with the armies of heaven…” I guess according to our “prophets”, not anymore
90% of my active Mormon firends and family still belive Homosexuality is a choice. So the LDS leaders have found out but they do not tell or teach the members this.
FIVE covenants? There used to be nine or ten per person. 1- Law of Obedience (of Eve to Adam, of Adam to Elohim, of Sisters to Husbands, or of Brethren to Adam/God, accordingly) 2- Law of Sacrifice, 3- To Never Reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. 4- Law of the Gospel (including the charge), 5- To Never Reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. 6- Law of Chastity. 7- To Never Reveal First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. 8- Law of Consecration. 9- Law of Vengeance. 10- Under the Same Covenant and Obligation of Secrecy as with the others, but no penalty is mentioned. If I understand correctly, they just recently removed three of them, leaving only five in place? Maybe I am misinformed. I would also like to note that at no time ever do you make any covenant regarding wearing the garment, or how or when to wear the garment, yet that is nearly the only "covenant" everyone phantom-remembers and talks about.
The ChatGPT on tithing is very interesting - that is one of the biggest blockers to people going to the temple - not sure how they staff all those temples unless they change something about tithing.....
The research Spackman has primarily been pursuing is the YEC vs. Evolution, so expect changes along those lines. That's not the only research he's done but its a significant talking point for him.
Well, I don't think finally taking an official stand on that would shock people. I think the huge majority of church members would think things along the lines of, Duh. Also, Spackman said it's about something uncovered in old documents.
Please note that the school where the most recent fatal shooting took place is specifically an organ of a strictly fundamentalist church. A church that specifically does not teach evolution.
I agree with you Bill. I can only imagine that the conflict and trauma experienced by members who have had children and loved ones in their families who have come out as gay. A definitive acceptance and tolerance of gay members would reduce the emotional trauma of TBM families with loved ones who have come out!. It owuld be a good thing...
“Preach nothing but Faith in the lord Jesus Christ and his doctrine - all else cometh of evil.” We are seeing the evil since BY brought polygamy in ….. now we are reaping the fruits.
Bednar obviously doesn’t understand how we all learn differently. I’m a furious writer when I’m listening to lectures or when I’m in meetings; it helps me process and retain information.
Much of the chatter dates back to apostle Russell M. Nelson’s pre-presidential piece titled “Divine Love” in 2003. “While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional,” he states. “The word does not appear in the scriptures.”
TBM’s like to say the “past is a foreign country “ and we can’t understand the decisions or thought processes of those earlier church leaders. I am of a similar age as you gentlemen and feel that we have lived in this so called “foreign country” and it is so easily pointed out that the only cohesive doctrine is about control and manipulation and brand protection.
Free agency in the pre-existence doesn’t make a lot of sense. How can we have agency without knowing good from evil? Supposedly Adam and Eve had to fall so they and we could learn good from evil - at least that’s I was always taught and taught others. Yet in whatever limited understanding we had, it was sufficient that 1/3 of God’s supposed children could be condemned for eternity????
@exmofisherman Yes, I think I'm aware of "most if not all of the issues". To understand the big picture I find it helpful to keep in mind Jacob 5, the allegory of the olive trees. In terms of the options you propose, the allegory suggests to me that God is all-loving, but not all-powerful, in the following sense. The vineyard is not something he has created ex-nihilo. He may have planted the trees, but he did not create the trees---or rather, the seeds from which they grow---from nothing. He is presented with certain organic materials to work with that exist independently of himself and develop beyond his total control. He can tenderly and lovingly and diligently and patiently cultivate the trees so as to bring them to the full fruition of their inherent possibility, but ultimately he cannot dictate the outcomes of particular trees or branches in any kind of absolute or controlling way. And it is to be expected that during the growing and maturing process some bad fruit is manifest along the way.
RFM, Lent is not a single religious day. It is a season, and consists of the 40 day period of time between the end of Jesus’s minstry and his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem, celebrated as Palm Sunday. Ash Wednesday is the first day of the period of solemn reflection and self-denial of luxuries of all kinds, particularly of foods. Traditionally, eating of meat was avoided. These days, there is not such a focus on that form of personal sacrifice, or at least not a full avoidance of meat altogether.
In my copy of the first edition of The Book of Mormon the introduction is not by Moroni. Also, in the first edition in the Joseph Smith Papers, the introduction is not by Moroni. Not sure what copy you have. After a little research, it looks like Joseph Smith added the name Moroni in the 1840 edition.
Realise that for many decades LDS members in Australia would have full civil marriage cerimony THEN days / weeks later would get married in the NZ Temple - usually on their 'honeymoonz' 😊... such is LDS culture outside of north america !?
Those who leave the LDS are falling into a lower Gospel where there is no priesthood. Because God removed the Melchizedek priesthood from the earth as mankind was really wicked.These Christians are totally powerless because the priesthood legitimizes Water Baptism and other needed ordinances Jesus said we had to have to enter into heaven, give blessings to their family and heal. Many are in the grave today because the father/husband was not strong enough in faith and priesthood. The priesthood also exist in heaven and that is why in the kingdom of God there is order. I knew a member of the LDS church who left it, three times because of contradictions.....each time God elevated his understanding and wisdom and he returned. By the end of his life he was back and had his contradictions all taken care of.
I am 78 yrs old. We have been given agency to choose for are selves. It was never Free. Right choices have good outcomes where wrong choices bring hurtful things. Where is the Bednar talk found? Like to hear more of his explanation.
Nothing prepares you for deconstruction more than reading stuff the church puts out there. I am nevermo, but it's true for any church, I think. "You think I should believe THAT?????"
Unlearning is a big deal. Plus, the whole notion of restoration is bogus and that should be acknowledged. Another avenue which good be pursued is merger with the Community of Christ. Even a discussion undertaken with the denomination might help open up consideration of new ideas.
We should have what Graham Norton uk show when in the Red chair... if they don't like what they hear then guests can pull a lever to get rid of them. Have a whatch its hilarious 😂
Yes RFM the Christian church went away from the magic gifts which is exactly the kind of cultural milieu that set up early church as a restoration of those magical powers
Me parece que han perdido de vista su responsabilidad personal de hacerse cargo individualmente de sus propias decisiones y están mas en justificar sus hechos y traumas personales a consecuencias de sus propias decisiones,y tratan de justificar sus malas decisiones hechando la culpa y distorsionando la verdad, lo cual es señal de falta de responsabilidad espiritual he individual al igual que madurez.
I’ve had a few things to say already, but women don’t covenant to men that was a hard thing going through a divorce to go back to the temple and deal with. I don’t think men understand that and you need a different perspective or an additional perspective.
46:20 - Yeah ELECTRIC GUITARS have been put down by the MOMO for a damn long time - ESPECIALLY in the FLDS cult!! (of which I have cured myself - lol!)
Old men so comfortable in their positions they fell behind, its all about being famous (wendy Nelson good ol friends with oprah? Whos running this corp) and relaxed it caught up to them. They contradict each other in their talks. Pervious and present,. it also proves that if you are going to be a religious leader you need to know your religion. Yes, in my opinion (not that it mattrrs) you should have a credible knowledge of history, study prior prophets talks, starting with good old Brigham Young. (He was a narcissistic dictator of a prophet.) They should have a degree or education of the Bible. . I'm not sure which prophet said you don't have to have any experience or knowledge to be a prophet but now you can see the reason you need one. Boy, he was wrong. . Also, I just learned the elite leaders do not pay tithing.! What? They make over $200,000 a year from your tithing and they do not have to pay tithing? No prophecy in the problems of today starting with the September 6. Lets think about it. They did not see this coming? No prophecy in this. They hid the money growth etc. Well yeah if you're dishonest about something you're going to lose. Especially in a religion. Who's running this church? All the changes? I want to see where they stand in the 2030 agenda. Looks not so good but it's a perfect situation for a one world leader. Think. The research I've done to LDS Church believes in transhumanism and the shots that change your DNA. The church made millions on members who got the shot. Think.... Yeah I'm not too happy with the leaders today. Have they gone astray? All the money donations to government entities you need to do your research peeps. Just things I think about.
Megan at the end noted something that's a problem across all sectors of society from politicians to billionaires to religious leaders. The leaders are locked or have locked themselves in an Ivory Tower and haven't talked to regular people for so long that they don't have a clue what's on peoples mind and you can only focus group so much before you have to wade into the masses to earn back authority through action and personal interaction.
Mormonism is in no way Christian. Basically, the mormon church only crry picks the New Testament, at best and in no way focuses on the actual teachings of Jesus. So much so that something as central to mormon theology isn’t even Biblical, and that is the Blood Atonement, i.e. the actual Atonement occurred when Jesus was praying alone in the Garden of Gethsrmane, when he bled through the pores of his skin. Even most ex-Mormons seem to think that is a standard Christian belief. I can you with certainty it isn’t.
Another matter. The mormon hymns are in general are chock full of rather sappy 19th century sentimentality. If that were not bad enough, the idea that the LDS is transitioning into the worst form of paeudochristian infotainment, as in the use of rock band style drumsets, electric guitars, so-called praise music and all I can say about that is that at best that stuff is about as musically inspired as supermarket music or the most insipid style of musically illiterate popular music, nothing to do with spirituality or actual worship. What’s next, talking in tongues, snake handling?
Ok. I love the podcast. But I have to say This the Nathan show? It’s all I hear when he talks …..I…I …….I. He’s a nice gay and has great info but his promotions of himself is a bit to much. I love the info but not the Me me me stuff. Just saying.
Nathan Hinckley is in my stake. I don’t know him personally but I remember him speaking in our ward as a high councilor and singing a song with his acoustic guitar at the pulpit. On one level I can sympathize with Nathan’s current views. I was an unbeliever for about 15 years. On another level though, as someone who has now come back to the Church with a deeper and more mature faith, it breaks my heart to see people obsess about issues of secondary or tertiary importance, often get them wrong, and turn their backs and walk away, at least for now, putting tremendous blessings here and hereafter in jeapordy.
Whether the church is true or not is not a secondary issue? And so many things work against the truth, claims of the church that it would be irrational to continue in belief Such as a secondary conundrum
@@MormonDiscussion Whether the Church is the formal vehicle through which God offers to prepare His children for exaltation is indeed a major issue. The assortment of picayune issues you obsess about in videos like this don’t meaningfully address this question.
I'll address it. It isn't. Exaltation is a lie. Notice how you didn't even mention salvation? You're doctrine teaches Christ's salvation is given to everyone (insert Mormon yawn). We'll make up exaltation so we have something to judge each other by.
@@ccardall then lets discuss the "main issue". If you were out for 15 years I assume you know about most if not all of the issues of the church. Is it rational to believe God would establish his kingdom on Earth with all those issues that are brought up in episodes like this? Is God just testing our faith and wanting to watch us squirm? Does he use imperfect people to establish his church who then obfuscate the truth and lie about it (which is a sin by the way, not a "mistake")? What kind of a system is that for such a perfect loving being? Either God is not all powerful and for some reason is unable to establish his truth in a better way, or he's not all loving and was able to set up his church in a better way but was unwilling to do so. Obviously there are other options, like that God doesn't exist at all, but that's a different topic.
Listen to yourselves. Obviously you do because this channel is one BIG echo chamber of "Somebody did somebody wrong song". I had my faith crises & thank God for the experiences. Your arguments are inane- e.g. Elder Bednar said "We don't really have agency" because we chose to follow Heavenly Father's Plan. Ummm... choice and consequence. "The glory of God is intelligence." I don't see any here. And I'm a lowly ward clerk in an obscure backwoods unit of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, without a podcast, or tens of thousands of subscribers. And you guys want to talk about grifting? You're doing the same thing as Sherem & Korihor. But think Nehor being rebuked by Gideon- you know the story. Think Paul testifying boldly before Festus. And yes, though it cuts you to the heart, think Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail. And now think of yourselves. Exactly. You say the Church is declining- No. This story is moving inexorably to the winding up scene. The parable of the ten virgins tells you all you need to know about the final outcome. NCSWIC
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I was the YW President in a ward in N Florida. During a stake conference, the youth were corralled together so one of the Stake Presidency could meet with them. He told them that no matter what, you follow your leaders. If they tell you to jump off a cliff, you obey! I raised my hand and said, don’t you mean that we should follow our personal inspiration? He got upset with me, and told me I was wrong. He continued to state that we should ALWAYS follow our leaders, and if they were wrong, that will be on them, but we will be rewarded for our obedience in following. When we separated and went back to our YW room, I told the girls that what he said was NOT correct. They had the right to personal revelation, and should absolutely NEVER follow ANYONE blindly! I was released soon after.
Well done
You know that line," We believe the Bible to be the word of God,....up to were it is correctly translated." Well I follow leaders who stand on scripture of the Bible. "IT IS WRITTEN" supersedes peoples feelings. So glad you took a stand. By grace are you saved and not of works. When they add "after doing all you can." Just by adding a little bit you completely contradict the word of God. ❤
Elizabeth, you are so right and courageous! Solemnly read below Bishop John D. Lee’s confession of the tragic consequences when he subordinated his conscience by obediently submitting to his Temple Covenants. Fifty-five Priesthood holders that Lee lead did the same, resulting in the murder at Mountain Meadows of more than 120 men, women and children of the Francher wagon train. Lee wrote:
“I am called a vile criminal and have been sentenced to be shot for deeds committed by myself and others, nearly twenty years ago. I have never willingly committed a crime. I have acted my religion, nothing more. I have obeyed the orders of the Church. I have acted as I was commanded to do by my superiors, and if I have committed acts that justify my execution, what should be the fate of the leaders in the Church who taught me to believe I could not and would not commit sin while obeying orders of the priesthood? My sins, if any are the result of doing what I was commanded to do by those who were my superiors in authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Endowed Church members might not realize that temple Covenants, like the Law of Obedience, attacks their free agency and conscience.
Brigham Young said don't do what I said because I said it. Find out for yourself. I had a bishop tell me something wrong. I ceased to sustain him and I was greatly blessed. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Because of that bishop I made a change. I am still an active LDS member but when my wife had surgery recently, her hospital bill was over $100,000. My cost, $20. Thank you, Bishop. If a church leader tells you something wrong, it's his responsibility. We have agency and the responsibility to do what is correct.
Those girls learned a good lesson! Can you imagine the mess this thinking makes !! What if a church leader told the girl to run off with him? We are in a day we HAVE to have personal revelation !! Even Pres Nelson said that as an apostle …. But then later told us to be good little global citizens and go along with the NWO shots…. We MUST ALL LEARN & teach each soul to LISTEN TO GOD FIRST!! And Good for you!!
😂 I haven’t stopt laughing at you lot yet!!! Thank you for a fun filled relaxing evening🙏😇 Im an ex Mormon from England UK 1991.
This is one of the best episodes you guys have done in a while..... Excllent!
My son was married in the temple last year. I mentioned that it was now allowable to get married civilly first, which would enable me to attend. He didn't know about this, and they went ahead and got married in the temple first, with a ring ceremony afterwards. Changing policy is one thing, getting members on board is another... That said, when I was married in the temple in 1984, neither of our parents were able to attend. It seemed like I got some payback.
I'm sorry. As a former faithful, born and raised LDS member, I can't imagine. It is true- policy doesn't automatically change beliefs and social perception of commitment and value.
I would not play into this manipulation personally. But, I would get married civilly first, and I would not get married in the temple till I knew I married the right person and it was a forever relationship or was going to work out. The divorce rate is still 60% in the church they say the temple marriages are less but I don't buy it. Temple marriages get divorces all the time. Although I am speaking from experience I was married in the temple later divorced. If I would have waited a little longer I wouldn't have made those covenants that are going to send me to hell now
@@Jsppydays they will not send you to hell. The covenants aren't real. You have the ability to cancel them in your heart, vocally, with intent, and also through removing your records of you choose- which they consider a cancelation of those ordinances. Ask me how I know. 😉 just kidding. But seriously, please don't torment yourself. They don't have the copyright/intellectual property/trademaek on God and human salvation.
I have an experience regarding my child’s baptism & “choice”. I was a TBM
..it almost broke my shelf at that time.. other major things have since broke my shelf. I’m “gratefully” out!!
Congratulations, Nathan, for your awakening.
When I was mormon, my husband and I chose to get married civilly first, due to there being so few of our extended families who would be able to attend the temple.
We were “temple worthy” (that term is super cringy), but this was a choice we made, and we waited 12 months to attend the temple to be sealed.
The amount of judgement we received from members was astounding, for the choice we made. They obviously thought we’d “messed up”, even though we hadn’t. I think by this time my shelf had started cracking in some big ways, so I really didn’t care what other members thought.
My wife and I did the same thing, and I didn't give a shit what other people thought. You shouldn't either. Don't let people in your family or ward or neighborhood brow beat you into doing anything you don't want to do. Example: if you get a calling in your ward, don't listen to the directive "you don't ever say no to a calling". If you don't want it don't accept. In an interview with a member of the Stake Presidency, I was asked what I wear to bed at night. He didn't need to know something that personal, and I told him so !
You may be interested in learning where the term "worthy" originated. Smith and his inner circle of friends called themselves the "worthies", to set themselves apart as better than the everyday rank and file members, due to their special secret knowledge, and their European royal ancestry.
@@carolyearsleyOf course he did. 🤢🤮
RFM is adorbs in the holiday scarf. I hope we see the superhero blanket again this winter. Thanks guys!
Did Bednar just say that he sits on the stand during Conference and laughs at people? He is so abusive.
Bednar is the Judas of our age.
Great job! I couldn’t watch it all live but I loved the discussion! I agree with everything said!
Glad you enjoyed it!
What an amazing show!! Thanks!!😀😀😀
Our pleasure!
My first time hearing/seeing Nathan. Awesome interview.
The church of the 90s is gone.
The LDS church historical framework is gone, they just havent accepted reality yet
1:00:29 In Brazil the church had no official authority to marry a couple only the State could authorize. In 1987 I attended the wedding of a former companion and he and his wife went to be sealed the following day. The bride wore a strapless dress because she hadn’t been endowed. The rules were obviously different in the US.
Nathan seems like a stand up guy. Loved his story on mormon stories. Keep doing the good work
Is Nathan RFM’s son?
@preacher1138 No he's one of the other guys in the video
@@preacher1138no, I was just playing
I have been in the spirit world and can say I know my Father lives and that I called on his son Jesus aname and he Saved me from a big mistake of over dosing on drugs, God knows it happened so how am I supposed to deny it God forbid! I was young. Never felt more loved and forgiven! A peace that surpasses all understanding just like the Bible says! I believe in miracles and I pray that for us all until we come to a perfect knowledge of the truth and I love it ♥️
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing ❤️
At approx the 2:10:00 when you guys are guessing what the next big change might be. I'll give my 2 cents. I think that Young Women will be granted the privilege to pass the Sacrament emblems alongside the Young Men. There is some historical presidence. I believe during the late 1910s during the end of WW1 and during the Spanish Flu the LDS church allowed YW to pass the Sacrament for a brief time.
Back in early 60's the handbook stated anyone could prepare the sacrament but only priesthood could bless. I don't remember what it said about passing it though. That way I could help the boy fill the water trays.
@ChrisS-dt3vq Agreed. The D&C only says that Priest's and Elders have the responsibility to "administer" the Sacrament. So the "preparation" beforehand and "passing" after the Sacrament Prayer could be performed by anyone. It kinda is already happening. The whole ward passes the trays around in a packed chapel anyway.
I heard they are already Beta-testing this ….I guess time will tell
The Ongoing Restoration sure seems to know a lot less about things these days.
You'd think the knowledge and accuracy would be increasing. Instead, platitudes and vagueries occupy the spaces left from all the vacated Truth Claims.
@@thelastgoonie6555 Nailed it.
On the garments subject, they even tell you in the temple when the garment is first presented that "it will be a shield and a protection to you against the power of the Destroyer until you have finished your work here on earth." Is that not a thing anymore? If we're expected to take the Tower of Babel story literally, they can hardly blame us for not knowing when not to take other stuff literally.
One of the callers brought up the situation of a divorced woman having to remain sealed to her ex, who has been cheating on her. I am in that situation; and when I was still a TBM, this was a very scary concept that I'd be forced to spend eternity with my ex and his affair partner.
My 2nd husband was accused of molesting his grandchildren 2 months into our marriage. He ended up in jail, was excommunicated & I divorced him. Afterwards, I was told by church leaders that even though my ex was no longer a member I still 'belonged' to him. If he was rebaptized, "all blessings being restored" meant his sealing to me, whether I wanted it or not. I addressed with church leaders that this stand violates women's agency and treats them like a piece of property, but to no avail.
@ModernAnasazi Yes! Exactly this. And this adds additional unnecessary anxiety to an already stressful situation. You are stressed about your entire eternity being hellish, no matter how "worthy" you are personally, according to the church leaders.
@@ModernAnasazi They are without understanding -- sealings in the day of Joseph was actually adoption-- maybe look up the teaching of Denver Snuffer? You’ll love !
The LDS church claims "plain and precious things" were removed on purpose from the Bible. Now in real time right before our eyes they are removing plain and precious things from their own teachings and their temple ceremony.
The difference is that the Bible actually stands.
Replay crew here. RFM, red and black becomes you quite nicely.
"You must unlearn what you have learned."
- Master Yoda
Nathan is an awesome dude😎
Another excellent episode!
Was the diagnosis EOH (Early Onset Heresy)?
“The VISIONS and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth..we’ll sing and we’ll shout with the armies of heaven…” I guess according to our “prophets”, not anymore
90% of my active Mormon firends and family still belive Homosexuality is a choice. So the LDS leaders have found out but they do not tell or teach the members this.
FIVE covenants? There used to be nine or ten per person.
1- Law of Obedience (of Eve to Adam, of Adam to Elohim, of Sisters to Husbands, or of Brethren to Adam/God, accordingly)
2- Law of Sacrifice,
3- To Never Reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
4- Law of the Gospel (including the charge),
5- To Never Reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
6- Law of Chastity.
7- To Never Reveal First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
8- Law of Consecration.
9- Law of Vengeance.
10- Under the Same Covenant and Obligation of Secrecy as with the others, but no penalty is mentioned.
If I understand correctly, they just recently removed three of them, leaving only five in place? Maybe I am misinformed.
I would also like to note that at no time ever do you make any covenant regarding wearing the garment, or how or when to wear the garment, yet that is nearly the only "covenant" everyone phantom-remembers and talks about.
The ChatGPT on tithing is very interesting - that is one of the biggest blockers to people going to the temple - not sure how they staff all those temples unless they change something about tithing.....
My 1924 of the B OF M doesn't have Moroni at the end, but has "translated by Josheph Smith,"
Never heard this one. You should put it up on a blog or post with a pic!
The research Spackman has primarily been pursuing is the YEC vs. Evolution, so expect changes along those lines. That's not the only research he's done but its a significant talking point for him.
Well, I don't think finally taking an official stand on that would shock people. I think the huge majority of church members would think things along the lines of, Duh.
Also, Spackman said it's about something uncovered in old documents.
@@sleepycalico McLellan journals..?
Please note that the school where the most recent fatal shooting took place is specifically an organ of a strictly fundamentalist church. A church that specifically does not teach evolution.
Sounds like it’s time to Restore the Restoration!
I agree with you Bill. I can only imagine that the conflict and trauma experienced by members who have had children and loved ones in their families who have come out as gay. A definitive acceptance and tolerance of gay members would reduce the emotional trauma of TBM families with loved ones who have come out!. It owuld be a good thing...
'Hagoth'... I knew three different Polynesian dudes in Salt Lake City named Hagoth.
“Preach nothing but Faith in the lord Jesus Christ and his doctrine - all else cometh of evil.” We are seeing the evil since BY brought polygamy in ….. now we are reaping the fruits.
Bednar obviously doesn’t understand how we all learn differently. I’m a furious writer when I’m listening to lectures or when I’m in meetings; it helps me process and retain information.
Me too!!
Much of the chatter dates back to apostle Russell M. Nelson’s pre-presidential piece titled “Divine Love” in 2003.
“While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional,” he states. “The word does not appear in the scriptures.”
😢 that makes me sick and so sad
TBM’s like to say the “past is a foreign country “ and we can’t understand the decisions or thought processes of those earlier church leaders. I am of a similar age as you gentlemen and feel that we have lived in this so called “foreign country” and it is so easily pointed out that the only cohesive doctrine is about control and manipulation and brand protection.
Apologists can continue to lie and the majority of the Saints will continue to believe the lies, because that is what they do.
Free agency in the pre-existence doesn’t make a lot of sense. How can we have agency without knowing good from evil? Supposedly Adam and Eve had to fall so they and we could learn good from evil - at least that’s I was always taught and taught others. Yet in whatever limited understanding we had, it was sufficient that 1/3 of God’s supposed children could be condemned for eternity????
Adam and Eve were on the other side of the veil. That was the reason for the tree of knowledge of God and evil.
They can never admit that polygamy was wrong, because that would require them to repudiate D&C 132, which the whole temple sealing scheme is based on.
Well put!
Everything with the LDS rises and falls on the truthfulness of Joseph Smith. Did he ever make a bad "prophecy?" YES Many. The foundation crumbles.
The book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus is the final and only High Priest.
Where is the February 2003 talk found?
I was at BYUI when an ABBA tribute group came. Maybe 2009? Anyway there was quite the uproar because shoulders were visible on stage. 😂
@exmofisherman Yes, I think I'm aware of "most if not all of the issues". To understand the big picture I find it helpful to keep in mind Jacob 5, the allegory of the olive trees. In terms of the options you propose, the allegory suggests to me that God is all-loving, but not all-powerful, in the following sense. The vineyard is not something he has created ex-nihilo. He may have planted the trees, but he did not create the trees---or rather, the seeds from which they grow---from nothing. He is presented with certain organic materials to work with that exist independently of himself and develop beyond his total control. He can tenderly and lovingly and diligently and patiently cultivate the trees so as to bring them to the full fruition of their inherent possibility, but ultimately he cannot dictate the outcomes of particular trees or branches in any kind of absolute or controlling way. And it is to be expected that during the growing and maturing process some bad fruit is manifest along the way.
RFM, Lent is not a single religious day. It is a season, and consists of the 40 day period of time between the end of Jesus’s minstry and his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem, celebrated as Palm Sunday. Ash Wednesday is the first day of the period of solemn reflection and self-denial of luxuries of all kinds, particularly of foods. Traditionally, eating of meat was avoided. These days, there is not such a focus on that form of personal sacrifice, or at least not a full avoidance of meat altogether.
1:04:41 Laura Osnes
In my copy of the first edition of The Book of Mormon the introduction is not by Moroni. Also, in the first edition in the Joseph Smith Papers, the introduction is not by Moroni. Not sure what copy you have. After a little research, it looks like Joseph Smith added the name Moroni in the 1840 edition.
THIS IS A HUGE UNLEARNING.
I KNOW 2 PEOPLE WHO GOT EXCOMMUNICATED IN THE ESRLY 90s FOR ACCUSING JOSEPH SMITH OF HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH POLYGAMY
So sad.
Accusing? Or correctly labeling?
Now they excommunicate you for saying polygamy started with Brigham ….
Then 2 nephi where it copies all of Isaiah
Realise that for many decades LDS members in Australia would have full civil marriage cerimony THEN days / weeks later would get married in the NZ Temple - usually on their 'honeymoonz' 😊... such is LDS culture outside of north america !?
I think some people do want it back: the church is divided.
Bednar is a damn narcissist!
I think they will allow the Apostles to retire.
Underrated comment. This actually would help the church stay relevant.
Those who leave the LDS are falling into a lower Gospel where there is no priesthood. Because God removed the Melchizedek priesthood from the earth as mankind was really wicked.These Christians are totally powerless because the priesthood legitimizes Water Baptism and other needed ordinances Jesus said we had to have to enter into heaven, give blessings to their family and heal. Many are in the grave today because the father/husband was not strong enough in faith and priesthood. The priesthood also exist in heaven and that is why in the kingdom of God there is order. I knew a member of the LDS church who left it, three times because of contradictions.....each time God elevated his understanding and wisdom and he returned. By the end of his life he was back and had his contradictions all taken care of.
Who is Nathan Hinkley?
There weren't even witnesses when Jesus was baptized.
No drums huh, gives some Jodi Hildebrandte vibes.
You forget about the women..we can’t get to the highest exaltation without a man!!!
I am 78 yrs old. We have been given agency to choose for are selves. It was never Free. Right choices have good outcomes where wrong choices bring hurtful things.
Where is the Bednar talk found? Like to hear more of his explanation.
I am your age, and was a 31 year convert. I remember distinctly being taught about free agency in the earlier years of my membership.
@ yes we were taught we had agency . The agency to choose for ourselves. It was not free agency.
Still can’t believe I belonged to this cult and believed such nonsense
1:24:55 because it’s corrupt! People are blind to it. Don’t sway too far to not believe in God or at least discount it because of skewed Mormon ideas.
Try saying all that to peter,james and john. Or try saying that about moses,adam, or nephi.
You forget about the women..we can’t get to the highest exaltation without a man!!! You need to include a women’s perspective on all of this
I love you’re content
Nothing prepares you for deconstruction more than reading stuff the church puts out there. I am nevermo, but it's true for any church, I think. "You think I should believe THAT?????"
My brother gary is a mormon and also a trump supporter. That's all you need to know about his character or lack thereof.
Ha ha ha. What a silly comment
Unlearning is a big deal. Plus, the whole notion of restoration is bogus and that should be acknowledged. Another avenue which good be pursued is merger with the Community of Christ. Even a discussion undertaken with the denomination might help open up consideration of new ideas.
We should have what Graham Norton uk show when in the Red chair... if they don't like what they hear then guests can pull a lever to get rid of them. Have a whatch its hilarious 😂
Yes RFM the Christian church went away from the magic gifts which is exactly the kind of cultural milieu that set up early church as a restoration of those magical powers
1:08:30 “unhealthy, unhealthy unhealthy”
Me parece que han perdido de vista su responsabilidad personal de hacerse cargo individualmente de sus propias decisiones y están mas en justificar sus hechos y traumas personales a consecuencias de sus propias decisiones,y tratan de justificar sus malas decisiones hechando la culpa y distorsionando la verdad, lo cual es señal de falta de responsabilidad espiritual he individual al igual que madurez.
It’s going to women having more leadership & voice.
I’ve had a few things to say already, but women don’t covenant to men that was a hard thing going through a divorce to go back to the temple and deal with. I don’t think men understand that and you need a different perspective or an additional perspective.
An angel signed a physical document ??? 🤦🏼♀️
What wa restored Bill you ask? A false church
Another gospel not Christ s
These AI images are so uncanny
46:20 - Yeah ELECTRIC GUITARS have been put down by the MOMO for a damn long time - ESPECIALLY in the FLDS cult!! (of which I have cured myself - lol!)
I’m so sick of this “is it a choice” bs. Attraction is not a choice; behavior is. It’s not rocket science.
Old men so comfortable in their positions they fell behind, its all about being famous (wendy Nelson good ol friends with oprah? Whos running this corp) and relaxed it caught up to them. They contradict each other in their talks. Pervious and present,. it also proves that if you are going to be a religious leader you need to know your religion. Yes, in my opinion (not that it mattrrs) you should have a credible knowledge of history, study prior prophets talks, starting with good old Brigham Young. (He was a narcissistic dictator of a prophet.) They should have a degree or education of the Bible. . I'm not sure which prophet said you don't have to have any experience or knowledge to be a prophet but now you can see the reason you need one. Boy, he was wrong. . Also, I just learned the elite leaders do not pay tithing.! What? They make over $200,000 a year from your tithing and they do not have to pay tithing? No prophecy in the problems of today starting with the September 6. Lets think about it. They did not see this coming? No prophecy in this. They hid the money growth etc. Well yeah if you're dishonest about something you're going to lose. Especially in a religion. Who's running this church? All the changes? I want to see where they stand in the 2030 agenda. Looks not so good but it's a perfect situation for a one world leader. Think. The research I've done to LDS Church believes in transhumanism and the shots that change your DNA. The church made millions on members who got the shot. Think.... Yeah I'm not too happy with the leaders today. Have they gone astray? All the money donations to government entities you need to do your research peeps. Just things I think about.
Please ,someone address Oaks, Bednar and all the flagrant condescending spewings.
😂 no Bill not all hispanics are mexicans. Typical ... 🤦 21:30
Megan at the end noted something that's a problem across all sectors of society from politicians to billionaires to religious leaders. The leaders are locked or have locked themselves in an Ivory Tower and haven't talked to regular people for so long that they don't have a clue what's on peoples mind and you can only focus group so much before you have to wade into the masses to earn back authority through action and personal interaction.
Mormonism is in no way Christian. Basically, the mormon church only crry picks the New Testament, at best and in no way focuses on the actual teachings of Jesus. So much so that something as central to mormon theology isn’t even Biblical, and that is the Blood Atonement, i.e. the actual Atonement occurred when Jesus was praying alone in the Garden of Gethsrmane, when he bled through the pores of his skin. Even most ex-Mormons seem to think that is a standard Christian belief. I can you with certainty it isn’t.
Another matter. The mormon hymns are in general are chock full of rather sappy 19th century sentimentality. If that were not bad enough, the idea that the LDS is transitioning into the worst form of paeudochristian infotainment, as in the use of rock band style drumsets, electric guitars, so-called praise music and all I can say about that is that at best that stuff is about as musically inspired as supermarket music or the most insipid style of musically illiterate popular music, nothing to do with spirituality or actual worship. What’s next, talking in tongues, snake handling?
Ok. I love the podcast. But I have to say This the Nathan show? It’s all I hear when he talks …..I…I …….I. He’s a nice gay and has great info but his promotions of himself is a bit to much. I love the info but not the Me me me stuff. Just saying.
Nathan Hinckley is in my stake. I don’t know him personally but I remember him speaking in our ward as a high councilor and singing a song with his acoustic guitar at the pulpit.
On one level I can sympathize with Nathan’s current views. I was an unbeliever for about 15 years.
On another level though, as someone who has now come back to the Church with a deeper and more mature faith, it breaks my heart to see people obsess about issues of secondary or tertiary importance, often get them wrong, and turn their backs and walk away, at least for now, putting tremendous blessings here and hereafter in jeapordy.
Whether the church is true or not is not a secondary issue?
And so many things work against the truth, claims of the church that it would be irrational to continue in belief
Such as a secondary conundrum
@@MormonDiscussion Whether the Church is the formal vehicle through which God offers to prepare His children for exaltation is indeed a major issue. The assortment of picayune issues you obsess about in videos like this don’t meaningfully address this question.
I'll address it. It isn't. Exaltation is a lie. Notice how you didn't even mention salvation? You're doctrine teaches Christ's salvation is given to everyone (insert Mormon yawn). We'll make up exaltation so we have something to judge each other by.
@@westivus Tell me about your understanding of salvation.
@@ccardall then lets discuss the "main issue". If you were out for 15 years I assume you know about most if not all of the issues of the church. Is it rational to believe God would establish his kingdom on Earth with all those issues that are brought up in episodes like this? Is God just testing our faith and wanting to watch us squirm? Does he use imperfect people to establish his church who then obfuscate the truth and lie about it (which is a sin by the way, not a "mistake")? What kind of a system is that for such a perfect loving being? Either God is not all powerful and for some reason is unable to establish his truth in a better way, or he's not all loving and was able to set up his church in a better way but was unwilling to do so. Obviously there are other options, like that God doesn't exist at all, but that's a different topic.
Listen to yourselves. Obviously you do because this channel is one BIG echo chamber of "Somebody did somebody wrong song". I had my faith crises & thank God for the experiences. Your arguments are inane- e.g. Elder Bednar said "We don't really have agency" because we chose to follow Heavenly Father's Plan. Ummm... choice and consequence. "The glory of God is intelligence." I don't see any here. And I'm a lowly ward clerk in an obscure backwoods unit of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, without a podcast, or tens of thousands of subscribers. And you guys want to talk about grifting? You're doing the same thing as Sherem & Korihor. But think Nehor being rebuked by Gideon- you know the story. Think Paul testifying boldly before Festus. And yes, though it cuts you to the heart, think Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail. And now think of yourselves. Exactly. You say the Church is declining- No. This story is moving inexorably to the winding up scene. The parable of the ten virgins tells you all you need to know about the final outcome. NCSWIC
I have a crush on you. Maybe we could end Mormonism before the 2000 -year anniversary. Little season.
A hundred years on earth is a thousand years in space, the heavens.
The sun and moon are heavenly bodies.