I think that Present without RNG could work like Pollen Puff, dealing damage when used against an opposing pokemon whilst healing the target if used on an ally pokemon
I think the easiest way to deal with pokeball rng would be to have pokeballs be tied to things like level/type/stats/ability, so a basic pokeball might only be able to catch pokemon level 10 and under or a quick ball might be necessary to catch pokemon with high speed stats or abilities like runaway. You might need a heal ball if the Pokémon’s health is in the red, or a friend ball if the pokemon is noted for being angry like poochyena or if you want to friendship evolve them. Like maybe you *can’t* get sylveon without catching an eevee in a friend ball.
i don't think that every pokeball would be a master ball, i think it would just be a guaranteed chance at certain health thresholds, like a pokeball would succeed if the pokemon was at 5% or lower health, a great ball at 10% and an ultra ball at 15%, or something to that effect, with the special types of pokeballs having their health thresholds changed accordingly
Maybe when you are trying to catch pokemon you might need to survive a few turns before being able to catch them. The amount would vary based on how strong the pokemon are. And the other pokeballs might decrease the amount. Like the net ball heavily decreases the amount of turns needed to catch a pokemon for water and bug types. And the master ball can always catch the pokemon on turn one.
I feel like many of these would not simply be, X always hits or X never hits and rather they’d become more dependent on other effects. While there is rng to catching mons most of the, in some cases it is a guaranteed catch on a pokemon. I assume Pokemon would move toward the direction of requiring status conditions or an exact certain threshold of HP for a pokemon to be caught or else it would not be caught at all.
Whenever people talk about removing RNG I don't think they're talking about stuff like wild encounters. I think it's explicitly about battles and more specifically competitive battles.
Oh yeah definitely, but I think this is just an exaggeration of that hypothetical. Not a luckless game, but fundamentally a game with zero rng elements to it
I feel like pokeballs could work if each pokeball had specific requirements for a catch. For example: Pokeballs will work when a Pokemon is below 25% health Great Balls work when a Pokemon is under 50%, Ultra Balls work under 75%, and Master Balls still always work. Different balls could have different effects by changing the damage required to capture a pokemon, like a dusk ball being perfect in caves, or a net ball being perfect on bug and water types. You could even introduce status balls, that would only work when a pokemon has a specific status like sleep or paralysis.
When some "competitive" players compain about RNG, I just imagine poker players complaining about shufling the cards or not knowint their oponents hand. Some games integrate randomeness in their fundamental structure. If Pokemon had no RNG, it would not be pokemon
There are some cases where I understand where those people are coming from. Like for example not related to me in any way YOUR RIOLU HITS ITSELF IN CONFUSION 4 TIMES IN A ROW!!!. Or when the opponent lands fissure 6 times in a row, sometimes RNG makes it literally impossible to win. Most of the time its okay, like ow I got hit by a crit oh well.
@@RaidFiftyOne the thing is that some games are about fighting the odds. That's part of their core and it also adds depth to them. If they don't like it they can make a chesslike version of the game and play it. It's up to them.
@@apolozero-frames291 Yes pokemon is about fighting the odds and they are usually complaining about that one crit, but there are times when fighting said odds is PHYSICALLY impossible. Like as I said Fissure, if you get hit by fissure 4 times you basicly already lost and there was nothing you could've done about it. There are a few times where there anger is justified (emphises on few)
@@RaidFiftyOne I agree with you. Those times where RNG isn't in your favour can be painful. Although that's why games like theese are usually played by multiple stages, bests of three, qualifiers, tournaments... Because you have to reward consistency, you can't rely on single games. VGC being doubles also makes up for more variety, odds and interactions in that department for instance
@Rainfire-forgets-to-animate moves like ember can't do the same damage every time because a move like ember relies on various aspects such as if the sun or rain is out, if you're a fire type pokemon or not, the typing of your opponent, if you have a special attacking boosting nature or a special attack lowering nature, if you have a lot of special attack or a little, if your opponent has high special defense or not, if your stats are boosted from something like nasty plot or if they were lowered. It relies on a lot of stuff
@@dtell3424 you completely missed the point. the person doesnt want identical damage every time, but identical damage under the same conditions every time. to remove the "roll" mechanic where you randomly do less damage (the max roll is actually the "default"). if you do 210 damage with earthquake to poliwrath on turn 1, and neither of of you switch or have stat changes, it should do 210 damage turn 2.
I think the best way to implement pokeballs would be similar to how they already work, with thresholds for HP, statuses, etc, for each Pokeball. For instance, a Pokeball could catch any pokemon under 10% health, but if it's Paralyzed, that threshold goes up to 15%. Special Pokeballs would have other requirements for catching pokemon, like a Dusk Ball could catch at like, 50-75% health at night, or a Quick Ball could catch any Pokemon, but maybe only if you "surprise it" or something, like in Legends Arceus. It wouldn't work on scripted encounters, obviously.
Also, I think if you eliminate RNG, the wild encounter tables wouldn't be culled, you'd just get a predictable pattern of pokemon each encounter, like, 2 weedle, 1 Caterpie, 1 Pidgey, 2 Weedle, 1 Caterpie, 1 Pidgey, 1 Pikachu, before the cycle resets.
Thunder, Fire Blast, Blizzard, etc could all be balanced by having lower PP instead of lower accuracy. Blizzard already has the lowest standard PP, but since we're already breaking the mold we can lower them to something like 3, which can get PP maxed to only 5. Thunder and Blizzard's weather effects can then boost their damage by 1.5x instead of giving them perfect accuracy: funnily enough, this actually helps make them into a proper trio with Fire Blast instead of having some slight differences in a couple areas. Focus Blast, Precipice Blades, Hydro Pump, etc would also follow the same design changes. Secondary effects could work like how the proposed paralysis mechanic did. For example, with Thunder your first and second hits won't ever do anything, but your third hit would _always_ inflict paralysis. Same goes for Fickle Beam, which would be doubled in power every three uses. Hydrapple is really LARPing as a Gunslinger Engineer in this reality. Moves like Present and Magnitude could cycle through effects. Present would initially heal, then do its weakest powered variant and gradually build up into its strongest variant or vice versa. Magnitude could start out at magnitude 10, then gradually weaken to magnitude 4 before looping around again. Kind of sounds like a very cool move idea for the actual game, imo. Psywave would probably just get crunched into being a Seismic Toss/Night Shade variant.
In fire emblem heroes they removed RNG from fire emblem by turning avoid into damage reduction (instead of a 30% chance to dodge, u reduce incoming damage by 30%) and turning crits into specials (after a certain number of attacks your special meter is full and you get some boosted damage on your next hit) I think Pokémon could do something similar Mechanics like sleep and freeze could be a temporary disable for a Pokémon, forcing them to return to their ball and not be sent out until a certain number of turns
Thanks, I appreciate that you weren’t the biggest fan of how we took on this topic, but came down to the comments to disagree respectfully. Feels like that kind of thing is harder to come by on the internet nowadays
Natures could still exist. All Pokemon could start with some neutral nature, and you could change them with mints. Although as a design decision they would be absurd.
If Pokemon had RNG removed, we’d finally have an excuse to replace Freeze with PLA’s Frostbite. Please for the love of god give us Frostbite and replace Freeze, TPC.
RNG-free Poké Balls ar e a simple fix. Increase most Pokémon's catch rates, but make it so that if the catch rate doesn't end up being 256 after the ball's multiplier, the ball fails. However, repeated ball usage will slowly raise a Pokémon's catch rate based on the kind of ball, with the special balls applying a greater increase if the conditions for their effects were met.
yeah because the stuff was random from the start temtem doesn't have rng. the problem with removing the rng is so many moves will be removed it would be a different game not worse but different.
OHKO moves could maybe still work if instead of "maybe yes, probably no" they worked only under specific conditions. And each different OHKO move could have a different condition. Dunno what they could be though. Not weather or terrain, which is usually a pretty good prerequisite condition, cause that would be so broken.
Removing rng doesn't mean you would necessarily have to make things 100% accurate. 7 out of 10 doesnt gave to be a dice roll. A chess board has 50% white squares, but it's a known and predictable pattern. It could be as simple as alternating between hits and misses with each subsequent use according to the percentage. (70% for example would have the 6th time using it be the 3rd miss, and so the next 4 uses would all hit making 7 out of every 10 uses successful but no rng). More than 1 way to skin a cat and this video takes an approach that doesnt really fit the concept in my opinion. It should rather be "what if every move had 100% accuracy" or something.
That's something Elias pointed out while we were recording this video. Like you said though, there's definitely more than one way to skin a cat, so at some point we do plan to revisit this topic, and explore what Pokemon would be like if the game kept the spirit of the random elements by making them deterministic instead. We did mention a more deterministic approach for reworking paralysis, so it's definitely a topic we can talk about more on the channel in the future
@@MEPlaysGames i admit i didnt actually finish watching the video so i apologize if what i mentioned was stated further into the video. It did get me thinking about how games could play out though, like even if all moves had 50% accuracy with the first usage always hitting (then alternating). Would it be worth it to use again knowing it misses in order to set something up, or would you try to have a team with moves you could win with using each only once per battle...but yeah, the topic/concept itself (removing rng) is actually kinda deep once you start to think of all the implications it would have for any given implementation of it. Now i want to see how the video ends~
@Double-X2-Points Yeah it’s an interesting thought experiment for sure. I think it could stand alone as its own video though. Both approaches come with their own quirks and nuances, so we’ll be back to tackle the more deterministic route another time
In a hypothetical reduced rng Pokémon game what I’d like is some type of X out of Y times for events to happen. Let’s say you use focus blast and miss. It will guarantee hit 7 out of 10 times, so now it will guarantee hit 7 out of 9 times (pretend it had enough pp to do that). If you miss 3 times the other 5 uses will always hit. In the case of moves with higher pp, it resets when you run out of rolls.
Just replace accuracy for move cooldowns. Lower accuracy can be translated to having to wait 1, 2 or more turns before using it again. Honestly, disappointed by the solutions given on this video. Also, no one is thinking about removing the exploration or catching rng. Just the battle one.
The biggest buff in this hypothetical is Rock types finally having a widespread 100% accurate move
Even in Gen 9 rock moves are still inaccurate
I think that Present without RNG could work like Pollen Puff, dealing damage when used against an opposing pokemon whilst healing the target if used on an ally pokemon
I think the easiest way to deal with pokeball rng would be to have pokeballs be tied to things like level/type/stats/ability, so a basic pokeball might only be able to catch pokemon level 10 and under or a quick ball might be necessary to catch pokemon with high speed stats or abilities like runaway. You might need a heal ball if the Pokémon’s health is in the red, or a friend ball if the pokemon is noted for being angry like poochyena or if you want to friendship evolve them. Like maybe you *can’t* get sylveon without catching an eevee in a friend ball.
i don't think that every pokeball would be a master ball, i think it would just be a guaranteed chance at certain health thresholds, like a pokeball would succeed if the pokemon was at 5% or lower health, a great ball at 10% and an ultra ball at 15%, or something to that effect, with the special types of pokeballs having their health thresholds changed accordingly
Maybe when you are trying to catch pokemon you might need to survive a few turns before being able to catch them. The amount would vary based on how strong the pokemon are. And the other pokeballs might decrease the amount. Like the net ball heavily decreases the amount of turns needed to catch a pokemon for water and bug types. And the master ball can always catch the pokemon on turn one.
Or when the target has a certain amount of damage and/or status condotions
Or when the target has a certain amount of damage and/or status condotions
I feel like many of these would not simply be, X always hits or X never hits and rather they’d become more dependent on other effects. While there is rng to catching mons most of the, in some cases it is a guaranteed catch on a pokemon. I assume Pokemon would move toward the direction of requiring status conditions or an exact certain threshold of HP for a pokemon to be caught or else it would not be caught at all.
Zap cannon and inferno would be insane since they're extremely powerful which is usually balanced by their 50% accuracy
Whenever people talk about removing RNG I don't think they're talking about stuff like wild encounters. I think it's explicitly about battles and more specifically competitive battles.
Oh yeah definitely, but I think this is just an exaggeration of that hypothetical. Not a luckless game, but fundamentally a game with zero rng elements to it
Maybe there could be pokemon in different patches of grass/bodies of water on the same route.
@@koolkrafter5 or it would be a rotating list of pokemon
I feel like pokeballs could work if each pokeball had specific requirements for a catch.
For example:
Pokeballs will work when a Pokemon is below 25% health
Great Balls work when a Pokemon is under 50%, Ultra Balls work under 75%, and Master Balls still always work.
Different balls could have different effects by changing the damage required to capture a pokemon, like a dusk ball being perfect in caves, or a net ball being perfect on bug and water types.
You could even introduce status balls, that would only work when a pokemon has a specific status like sleep or paralysis.
Focus blast would finally hit
When some "competitive" players compain about RNG, I just imagine poker players complaining about shufling the cards or not knowint their oponents hand. Some games integrate randomeness in their fundamental structure. If Pokemon had no RNG, it would not be pokemon
There are some cases where I understand where those people are coming from. Like for example not related to me in any way YOUR RIOLU HITS ITSELF IN CONFUSION 4 TIMES IN A ROW!!!. Or when the opponent lands fissure 6 times in a row, sometimes RNG makes it literally impossible to win. Most of the time its okay, like ow I got hit by a crit oh well.
@@RaidFiftyOne the thing is that some games are about fighting the odds. That's part of their core and it also adds depth to them. If they don't like it they can make a chesslike version of the game and play it. It's up to them.
@@apolozero-frames291 Yes pokemon is about fighting the odds and they are usually complaining about that one crit, but there are times when fighting said odds is PHYSICALLY impossible. Like as I said Fissure, if you get hit by fissure 4 times you basicly already lost and there was nothing you could've done about it. There are a few times where there anger is justified (emphises on few)
@@RaidFiftyOne I agree with you. Those times where RNG isn't in your favour can be painful. Although that's why games like theese are usually played by multiple stages, bests of three, qualifiers, tournaments... Because you have to reward consistency, you can't rely on single games. VGC being doubles also makes up for more variety, odds and interactions in that department for instance
The only things I wish they'd remove is random damage variables and random crits. Otherwise everything is fine.
Damage roll makes me so mad. Like secondary effects and even crits I get. But why can't the move just do the same amount of damage each time?! >:(
Freeze? I’m sure you just forgot, but either change it to frostbite or remove it.
@Rainfire-forgets-to-animate moves like ember can't do the same damage every time because a move like ember relies on various aspects such as if the sun or rain is out, if you're a fire type pokemon or not, the typing of your opponent, if you have a special attacking boosting nature or a special attack lowering nature, if you have a lot of special attack or a little, if your opponent has high special defense or not, if your stats are boosted from something like nasty plot or if they were lowered. It relies on a lot of stuff
@@dtell3424 you completely missed the point. the person doesnt want identical damage every time, but identical damage under the same conditions every time. to remove the "roll" mechanic where you randomly do less damage (the max roll is actually the "default"). if you do 210 damage with earthquake to poliwrath on turn 1, and neither of of you switch or have stat changes, it should do 210 damage turn 2.
I think the best way to implement pokeballs would be similar to how they already work, with thresholds for HP, statuses, etc, for each Pokeball. For instance, a Pokeball could catch any pokemon under 10% health, but if it's Paralyzed, that threshold goes up to 15%. Special Pokeballs would have other requirements for catching pokemon, like a Dusk Ball could catch at like, 50-75% health at night, or a Quick Ball could catch any Pokemon, but maybe only if you "surprise it" or something, like in Legends Arceus. It wouldn't work on scripted encounters, obviously.
Also, I think if you eliminate RNG, the wild encounter tables wouldn't be culled, you'd just get a predictable pattern of pokemon each encounter, like, 2 weedle, 1 Caterpie, 1 Pidgey, 2 Weedle, 1 Caterpie, 1 Pidgey, 1 Pikachu, before the cycle resets.
Thunder, Fire Blast, Blizzard, etc could all be balanced by having lower PP instead of lower accuracy. Blizzard already has the lowest standard PP, but since we're already breaking the mold we can lower them to something like 3, which can get PP maxed to only 5.
Thunder and Blizzard's weather effects can then boost their damage by 1.5x instead of giving them perfect accuracy: funnily enough, this actually helps make them into a proper trio with Fire Blast instead of having some slight differences in a couple areas. Focus Blast, Precipice Blades, Hydro Pump, etc would also follow the same design changes.
Secondary effects could work like how the proposed paralysis mechanic did. For example, with Thunder your first and second hits won't ever do anything, but your third hit would _always_ inflict paralysis. Same goes for Fickle Beam, which would be doubled in power every three uses. Hydrapple is really LARPing as a Gunslinger Engineer in this reality.
Moves like Present and Magnitude could cycle through effects. Present would initially heal, then do its weakest powered variant and gradually build up into its strongest variant or vice versa. Magnitude could start out at magnitude 10, then gradually weaken to magnitude 4 before looping around again. Kind of sounds like a very cool move idea for the actual game, imo. Psywave would probably just get crunched into being a Seismic Toss/Night Shade variant.
With pokeballs, you would likely keep them as is, only instead of RNG, it would be decided by percent left of HP, and keep everything else the same
In fire emblem heroes they removed RNG from fire emblem by turning avoid into damage reduction (instead of a 30% chance to dodge, u reduce incoming damage by 30%) and turning crits into specials (after a certain number of attacks your special meter is full and you get some boosted damage on your next hit)
I think Pokémon could do something similar
Mechanics like sleep and freeze could be a temporary disable for a Pokémon, forcing them to return to their ball and not be sent out until a certain number of turns
if there was a speed tie, both pokemon would attack eachother at the same time
I don't think I heard mention of the focus band, obviously the best item in the game
A lot of psychic & ghost types would be using focus wait
Focus miss?
dont worry elias i've caused damage to my nucleus too
and also i would love to hear the context of that 6'7 for a day tangent
You could just make it so some pokemon are only catchable above a threshhold and boom, no RNG.
Hah, you guys are a riot. Definitely subscribed.
Thanks, I appreciate that you weren’t the biggest fan of how we took on this topic, but came down to the comments to disagree respectfully. Feels like that kind of thing is harder to come by on the internet nowadays
Natures could still exist. All Pokemon could start with some neutral nature, and you could change them with mints. Although as a design decision they would be absurd.
Have pokeballs only work when the pokemon is down to a certain percent of their health
with no rng, focus blast would go from a 0% chance of hitting to a 0% chance of hitting.
With no RNG, there would be no random encounters. You would know where every pokemon is in the entire region at all times
We have all both loved and hated RNG with a passion like no other
I think RNG free pokeball should always catch pokemon at level 1-15 megaball at level 15-30 and so on, probably most tipe of pokeball will not exist
you ever kick ball through brick wall?
Nope but in a dream i kinda did
No right could mean the moves could never hit rather than they always hit
If Pokemon had RNG removed, we’d finally have an excuse to replace Freeze with PLA’s Frostbite.
Please for the love of god give us Frostbite and replace Freeze, TPC.
Is there a way to mod a pokemon game to get rid of rng of moves.
Choice scarf fissure Excadrill go burrr
RNG-free Poké Balls ar e a simple fix. Increase most Pokémon's catch rates, but make it so that if the catch rate doesn't end up being 256 after the ball's multiplier, the ball fails. However, repeated ball usage will slowly raise a Pokémon's catch rate based on the kind of ball, with the special balls applying a greater increase if the conditions for their effects were met.
yeah because the stuff was random from the start temtem doesn't have rng. the problem with removing the rng is so many moves will be removed it would be a different game not worse but different.
Yep. And that's why Temtem is a complete pain to play.
OHKO moves could maybe still work if instead of "maybe yes, probably no" they worked only under specific conditions. And each different OHKO move could have a different condition. Dunno what they could be though. Not weather or terrain, which is usually a pretty good prerequisite condition, cause that would be so broken.
Smogon enters the comments section
Game Corner economy in shambles.
Removing rng doesn't mean you would necessarily have to make things 100% accurate. 7 out of 10 doesnt gave to be a dice roll. A chess board has 50% white squares, but it's a known and predictable pattern. It could be as simple as alternating between hits and misses with each subsequent use according to the percentage. (70% for example would have the 6th time using it be the 3rd miss, and so the next 4 uses would all hit making 7 out of every 10 uses successful but no rng).
More than 1 way to skin a cat and this video takes an approach that doesnt really fit the concept in my opinion. It should rather be "what if every move had 100% accuracy" or something.
That's something Elias pointed out while we were recording this video. Like you said though, there's definitely more than one way to skin a cat, so at some point we do plan to revisit this topic, and explore what Pokemon would be like if the game kept the spirit of the random elements by making them deterministic instead. We did mention a more deterministic approach for reworking paralysis, so it's definitely a topic we can talk about more on the channel in the future
@@MEPlaysGames i admit i didnt actually finish watching the video so i apologize if what i mentioned was stated further into the video. It did get me thinking about how games could play out though, like even if all moves had 50% accuracy with the first usage always hitting (then alternating). Would it be worth it to use again knowing it misses in order to set something up, or would you try to have a team with moves you could win with using each only once per battle...but yeah, the topic/concept itself (removing rng) is actually kinda deep once you start to think of all the implications it would have for any given implementation of it. Now i want to see how the video ends~
@Double-X2-Points Yeah it’s an interesting thought experiment for sure. I think it could stand alone as its own video though. Both approaches come with their own quirks and nuances, so we’ll be back to tackle the more deterministic route another time
Speed ties?
What about shinies
Pokemon NEEDS RNG. It’s the very base of the game.
No pvp damage rolls are unreliable
@@raeidmorad8093It's better when not everything is predictable. If it wasn't for randomness every game would be resolved before it even started
In a hypothetical reduced rng Pokémon game what I’d like is some type of X out of Y times for events to happen. Let’s say you use focus blast and miss. It will guarantee hit 7 out of 10 times, so now it will guarantee hit 7 out of 9 times (pretend it had enough pp to do that). If you miss 3 times the other 5 uses will always hit. In the case of moves with higher pp, it resets when you run out of rolls.
There would be no shinies and no random wild encounters
No status effect luck yay!!!
Just replace accuracy for move cooldowns. Lower accuracy can be translated to having to wait 1, 2 or more turns before using it again.
Honestly, disappointed by the solutions given on this video. Also, no one is thinking about removing the exploration or catching rng. Just the battle one.
with no rng, focus blast would go from a 0% chance of hitting to a 0% chance of hitting.