Thx for another awesome vid Adam!!! I just seen an advertisement from Europe that Kmc is now selling prewaxed chains with their own house brand of wax they call it "go wax",and its a drip wax...Cheers!!!
thanks glenn! yes it will be interesting how well that sells for them - overall i am not sure it will be widely released vs only what they sell direct from website as it is such a stock ordering nightmare for importers and retailers re how many of model x and colour y do they stock in FG or wax. And i cant say officially but 99.99% their kmc go wax is squirt :). Which is fine, still way better than FG, and whilst not as optimal a n IM wax, one can at least just run that treatment down and move to waxing ok without needing to clean
@@dawn_rider yeah there is a few bits in that vid i need to chat to josh on, my understanding (and i confirmed this with kmc) is that the DLC coating is EXTERNAL only, it is applied after chain construction. It has no impact on what is going on inside chain, it is in essence just a very expensive cosmetic coating. I believe it is the type of low friction coating kmc use that causes wax bond issues, and i gotta say, i think it also shucks off a lot of wet lubricants too. The DLC chain was TERRIBLE in my chain wear testing project, i think it and the other kmc's tested were the worst wear life by miles. I cant say for certain, but im personally 99.999999% certain kmc go wax is just licensed and rebranded squirt lube. Which is fine and dandy, that is still a vastly better start to ones chain lubrication life than factory grease. One can run the original squirt treatment down and then move to an IM wax without needing to clean, or to any other top lubricant choice - if wear original treatment down to when chain starts to sound a bit dry, there is less than a gram of wax lube left, so one can apply pretty much anything they like over that then without faffing with solvents / cleaning - so all up it is a good move by KMC, i just wish they did something about their low friction coating and general wear life. but yeah - i dont think josh is correct re DLC being inside the chain and affecting lubricants or wax at all, it is only external, same as titanium nitride platings such as rainbow - i am not sure where / how he has seen difference in treatment lifespans as that is not something have seen here, so theres a bunch of stuff i want to get the test info he has where they have come across these issues on what are external platings only after chain construction
Contamination. I absolutely not understand what happens with my chains. I made a measuring rod with a vernier scale in the end, so I can measure my chain length with 0.01% of the full length, give or take some calculation problems. That would be 2% on your scale if I am not mistaken. I change chains after every 200km. While I used oil, I was able to measure wear nicely, like 0.02-0.03% per 200km (except for Sunrace, that thing just wears like no tomorrow). While I used oil, I wasn't able to totally clean the chain, I always heard the dirt's sound in the chain, while I made chain maintenance. Then I switched to Squirt. First the wear did not change much, but then I learned that I don't have to degrease the chain if I use Squirt. After that I was not able to measure any wear, even though the chain were 0.25% longer than originally (Why chain wear gauges show 1% at that point?!) The dirt's noise disappeared as well. I applied Squirt about every 60km, which I find a bit excessive now. Now I have new chainrings and cassette, and with a new chain I were able to replicate that result at around 0.02% wear. I will try apply Squirt at every 200km to see what happens. If the wear comes back, I will apply at every 100km. It is also interesting that any company grease causes big jump in wear for me, but applying Squirt slows down/stops wear. Unfortunately I can't bike enough to have fast results in chain wear :/
Hey there - apologies i having a little trouble following the above and questions around 0.25% and 1% wear. I am also not sure if riding on road or offroad? sounds offroad? Generally speaking squirt is fairly long lasting, and over lubing with squirt will cause substantial excess build up with can gum things up, and also make wear checking difficult. For most lubricants learning when chains starts to sound and feel noticeably dry, then re lubing back a bit from that point - that is generally optimal (ie if normally goes to a dry sound and feel by about 10 hours cycling - then re lube at about 8 hours). If your riding is offroad - whilst a good wax drip will generally well out perform wet, over time abrasive contamination will build up and the lubricant will become more abrasive and higher wear. Squirts recommendation not to degrease is simply because squirt has initial penetration issues which are a bit tricky to negate, so for most they would rather you just keep adding lube even though what is running inside is getting more abrasive vs removing all wax layers and now having to try to get wax back deep inside. This is sort ok for dry road riding, but for offroad you need to periodically reset the contamination or you will pay for it in higher wear and friction, and for all lubes post any decent wet ride - road, and especially offroad.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for reading my long post 👍 I have a mountainbike but I usually ride on road. I definitely overdid, as after relubing the chain was very stiff, and I always have to scrape squirt gunk from everywhere. Because of this I try to find what is the minimum I need to apply. That initial penetrating issue would explain why I still had similar wear to oil while I degreased the chain after every 200km. About the wear: I have a 55 link chain (110 rivets), which should be 55 inch long at 0%. Before I fell into the hot melt waxing rabbit hole and started to use new chains in my chain collection (I rotate multiple chains), they were about 55.137 inch long, which is bout 0.25% longer than should be. However, my cheap chain wear tool definitely fell into the chain (KMC universal chain checker wich just say ok or NG), Park Tool CC-2 definitely showd 1% wear (that thing drives me crazy with the 0.25% mark on brand new chains), only the Shimano TL-CN42 showed that the chain is still usable (I can't find information when should this tool fall into the chain).
Kitty need her own Chanel or, if not, the occasional special insert in an episode. Wonderful animals and admire you being her Personal Stylist 🎉🎉 Oh, and a ‘little’ to ‘little’ ring chainline seems to me to be a bigger factor than the ‘big’ to ‘big’ in terms of adding watts. Why? Well because every link has to be rotated a great deal more. The number of times that happens if a factor of course, so cadence is also a factor (the number of times the whole chain length is used per unit time 😊
yes sorry i didnt really go into covering that side of cross chaining as it is a much less common issue theses days with most 2x systems preventing one using small / small, and so its really uncommon to see one riding in smallest cog small ring vs use of biggest cog and big ring. Small / small also the issues come mostly from extra articulation inefficiency vs chain line angle itself which never gets very extreme. So big / big is much more common, and more likely to have angles that may exceed a chains lateral flexibility. cadence is unlikely to be too big a deal if comparing same power output - ie 75 cadence for 250w of 100 cadence for 250w. Vs if one was in the corresponding gear in large chain ring - in large ring there will be many more links pulled through pulleys. However the articulation over chain ring and cog is lesser and at lower tension. the higher the cadence the more articulations but the lower the tension load per articulation. If just looking at 75 vs 100 in small, its the same factor. the articulations through the pulleys will be relatively negligeable factor due to generally light tension load, and then its more at lower tension vs less at higher tension on cog and ring And yes kitty is quite something , she loves nothing more than being wrapped up in the biggest cuddles and spends most of the day luxuriating between different couches. Due to both there is also a lot of vacuuming of clothes and couches...
yeah its a togo, full foam (no frame) so they are light and easy to move around - we have 4.... i think.....including a double which they love to spread out on
On the potential loss of watts from cross-chaining...perhaps the most significant loss is the loss of sanity from the more noisy chain that can sometimes happen as things get more out of alignment. For those of us who are used to the bliss of a well-treated and completely silent chain, those enhanced noises from the cross-chaining can be maddening!
nope they are still organizing a call. those peeps in the chain department must be being worked to the bone! or they dont want to talk to me :) I think its the latter but i will keep trying, and gcn and silca are trying as well. My guess is this is just a really annoying question / situation for them they will hope just fades away. I imagine they have been trying and failing to come up with the right spin to justify the 0.8% recommendation, so they dont want to have to answer the question because they dont have an acceptable answer, and they dont want to have to change the tool to 0.5% as that would say the current tools sold are wrong. So there are two things they very much do not want to do - provide an answer or update the tool, so they are no doubt planning to just stick heads in sand until it blows over. I will do a stronger update like the above next week i think as well as send a reminder email containing the above.
Thanks for all this scientifically backed up very interesting content! You now convinced me and I ordered my first basic equipment for immersive waxing. When I come from a pre-used chain that has only seen UFO drip wax, would it be ok to clean it with boiling water, dry, and then put into the wax pot just like a chain that would come from immersive waxing or that is lubricated with drip and immersive waxing in an alternating manner?
Hey Olaf - yes that will be fine with UFO drip - that gets along very well with immersive waxing so a boiling water rinse if its seen a bunch of coatings, dry - wax - yeehaa. And then you can use UFO drip with your IM waxing to take pressure of always re waxing if that suits - generally up to 5 re lubes is fine to just re wax straight over no cleaning needed and all is grand.
My cheap immersive waxed KMC chains seem to have more chain metal wear particles in them than external contamination ! I always get 300km out of them in dry conditions without squeaking noises but spend a lot of time in the larger cassette sprockets. The chains are well within the 0.5% stretch limit after 1000's kms so I can only think the sideplates are being worn ? I really should check for changes in lateral flexibility ( bending radius ) with % elongation, although of course I do not know what changes are 'normal' . Eventually my plan is to replace these KMC chains with better quality YBN SLA ones. There is a chain stiffness testing article by Damon Rinard , hosted on the Sheldonbrown website. No modern 11/128" chains were tested. It seems there is an opportunity for someone to create a new up to date results table? There may be a wide variance in results even for a particular chain model ? I noticed the well deserved 'Quality Business Award' that ZFC has received 🙂
Hey! Yes you are a candidate for the new abbey tools LL checker, i think you would put such a tool to very good use! Very interesting re chain stiffness testing, that is something i hope to be able to do in future with my tensile test machine just ah holy batman when to get time to play with that again. But even in the testing done, there are clear differences between chains - some stretch notably before failure, some much less and snap fail harder!
I do most of my riding on the flat. 50/34, 11/34. I feel better /it feels more efficient doing intervals uphill in 50/30 or 50/27 than dropping in the small ring. That small ring only feels relevant when I'm doing intervals up really steep gradients. Where I don't have a choice, basically. Never tried to quantify the difference, may just be in my head too.
you are not alone, hanging onto the big ring feels better for many. With an 11/34 cassette, the 30 is cog 2, so a 50t to a 30t 2nd cog would be all groovy indeed and 50/27 for cog 3 will be rockin
Did you ever do a test on narrow/wide chainrings vs regular for general friction, or cross chaining? I swear the fatter grabby spots make cross chaining seem more of a detriment to my butt dyno but can't confirm. I have a road bike set up 1x and compared to my regular 2x setup, I swear it seems sticky. Same wax setup on everything.
Yes narrow wide will exacerbate cross chain issues a bit, there will be more friction between the side of outer link plates and the wide tooth vs normal ring, and this will be more and more so the more extreme the chain line angle. You can even see on some systems in the largest cog the outer link plates hitting top of the tooth before sliding down the side vs the link sliding neatly over the tooth. Aside from more losses and draggy running if the chain line angle is causing this on N/W rings, it will over time wear the wide teeth down, but it also can fatigue those rivets as well as under load there is a load pressure trying to pry those outer links off the pin rivets. Your set up would likely really benefit from getting the cassette as outboard as you have clearance for (and in some cases mech limit range for) and ensuring crank is mounted as inboard as possible so no spacers between crank and bb - this does usually then require a pedal washer or two to get q factor back to same. but you will surprised how much a few mm at cassette and couple mm at front can do re making larger cogs so much better running (and less risk of chain fail)
20:20 it's actually worse than you are demonstrating, because the chain describes an 'S' shape as it releases from the cog, bends to its exit angle, then bends again through the entry angle to the chainring, all the while rubbing the sides of cog teeth, sideplates and rollers and pins at odd angles on one another. The chainring and selected cog are parallel to one another all the way up and down the cassette (cluster . . . !?), but only one or two cogs are approximately in line with the relevant chainring. Low flex angles are inherently more efficient/have less attendant friction than cross-chained large flex angled combinations. The two exit & entry bends both have much smaller radii than the free flex angle of the drive/pinion centre-to-centre length of the chain.
I always buy the best chain I can afford then always use immersion wax and re-wax between 600 and 1000 klm been getting over 12000 before 50% wear reaches
Thanks Adam. Hoping that you'll update us on the status of testing Silca's vs Ceramic Speed's UFO drivertrain cleaners...or do you think that Silca's strip chip has made these redundant?
Thanks ricardo! yeah i am trying to work on that slowly still - i have found it really hard to find a grease / oil detection agent - something i thought would be easy. I have given this a crack a few times over coffee's but im running out of links to check to try to find / purchase. there are UV lights for this but not all greases show up. And the professional ones are EXPENSIVE. A provider in the uk is willing to test if i send some chain sections before i purchase, so might have to go that path next, but preferably i would just like a liquid detection agent i can pop chain into after using Stripper / DT etc. It must exist, i really thought this would be common and easy to get! And no definitely not redundant, to use strip chip one really needs a temp control pot or its a big temp faff juggle, and so for many unless shelling out the big bucks for the silca pot - the ease of just soaking chain for 10 mins in stripper, rinsing with boiling water, dry, wax - thats still just a really easy and attractive way to prep a chain for waxing (or top drip lube).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Hopefully the 'wax bonding agent' left by UFO DT cleaner won't give a positive test for grease ? Maybe deep clean some chain with solvent then clean with DT clean and see how that tests ? Given the shipping time and climate, you'll probably need to seal samples in airtight packaging, maybe with with desiccant to stop rust ( something that will not coat the samples in dust ).
if chain is much noisier then either it is a bit on the limit - which if you want to run big big might be worth playing with cassette shims / removing spacer from DS crank, or yeah - some systems big big is just not going to optimal and its small ring time vs that
I am beginning to fear that Silca is going for profits and may be stretching the benefits of some of their newer products. I will not purchase until thoroughly tested
Hey! mostly. UFO drip, SS drip and Tru tension tungsten all weather are the currently recommended options for use with IM waxing as you can just re wax straight over, or if using stand alone - a good periodic reset or post wet ride reset with just boiling water, dry, re lube - works great. It is not a 100% perfect clean, but boiling water baths do an impressive reset for very little time, effort and cost and so make them a great option as easy to keep day in day out low friction and wear
Yes. Its causing the components of the chain to move in a more extreme fashion. Which will push out more lubricant faster than not cross chaining. It most likley would also wear the chain out faster and the quick links may suffer too. Its one of the awesome advantages of an electric shifting. You can delete cross chaining via software and turn the system into essentially a 1x20 drivetrain by switching to sequential shifting and letting the computer control the front derailleur 100%. You can even deep dive in the software to get the smallest gear jumps or adjust the overlap zone. I havent done it to mine yet, its all still new to me. Ive been on 4 rides with my new bike, loving every minute!
it depends - it will wear the wax off the surfaces of side of the roller and where than runs on inner link plate, as well as inner link plate to outer link plate. For road this doesnt generally become an issue (you will just start to have a dry sounding and feeling chain in your larger cogs) before time to rewax. For gravel / mtb - it can come up as an issue for long rides or events as dust can penetrate between those surfaces (but struggles to get deeper so main load surfaces are not seeing a shortened lifespan). The dust will abrade wax off those surfaces faster than not dust, and so running on high chain line angles with dust will simply see a dry sounding and feeling chain (and higher losses once wax is gone and not lubricating the sides of those parts) in the climbing gears well before wax treatment would be starting to give out on main load surfaces (pin, inner link plate bore, roller bore etc), So sometimes if riders do a lot of climbing in really dusty environments - lessening the time in highest chain line angles which really loads up those surfaces will extend treatment lifespan on them. So this could mean for instance dropping from a 32t to a 30t ring if that enables one to spend more climbing time in one cog further down / so lesser chain line angle.
While all of my outdoor bikes have waxed chains, I use a wet lube (Silca Syner-g) on my indoor trainer. Since there's no contamination on an indoor bike, wax doesn't have the same benefits that it does outdoors--and it just makes a mess and needs somewhat frequent rewaxing. Based on Adam's testing, I did strip the factory grease before applying Syner-g. For maintenance, I simply wipe the chain down every so often and apply more lube when it gets "dry"---which takes FOREVER.
For serious racers the fastest lubricant still counts - but for most some of the very long lasting wet lubes may be easier as very long time between re applications, or clean wax drips like ss drip, tru tension, ceramic speed etc are popular
@@zerofrictioncycling992 That's true. If someone is racing on Zwift or Rouvy, then wax is faster. But I don't like cleaning up the wax snow indoors, and I'm not a virtual racer, so a low-mess wet lube is easy, low-wear, and clean. Outdoors, though, I'm all about wax!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 cheers. I already have some silca synergetic lube - does the chain need prepping as if I was going to wax it (I also have some silca chain stripper). I'm defo not a racer... Just like to make bike components last a long time and avoid black paste on drive chain
My indoor training is done with my bike on a smart trainer, in my office, an office beige carpet and white walls. I think wax might be less likely to leave stains on walls and carpets than oil-based lubes, even if you are careful to wipe the chain down frequently. My assumption might be biased by my dread of the wife finding said stains on the walls and carpet. I've not had any issues with bits of wax (from immersion waxing) being flung off.
So a race chain is just a 3rd chain? Also, dont degrease your shimano chainrings in ecolab purple "industrial degreaser" they are aluminum and it will eat the finish on them. Although it will remove the grease as intended...
Sodium Hydroxide in your Ecolab degreaser is likely the problem. Josh at Silca has quite a good video on cleaning products , the relevant part being ua-cam.com/video/pZH2Fe1m1QM/v-deo.html . In the desciption he links ua-cam.com/video/uTgpcvGdyCw/v-deo.html which shows what happens.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I havent gotten into racing (yet). As long as were not counting other cyclists that dont know im racing them! Im still a bit green, below average power to weight, but I have gained a passion for the sport. Im riding 100+ miles a week, I can see my body changing, and my heart improving. I dont have plans on racing, but it could be a fun aspiration, after i can graduate another gear or two! Im still amazed by the calories cycling burns. Its not what brought me to cycling, but its what is keeping me a cyclist. I broke my back and need the zerofriction!
@@brandonhoffman4712 Ah great stuff brandon! yeah i used to be quite a butterball myself! When i started my fitness journey, initially it was a slog - i didnt have the muscles, the muscle endurance, or the fitness to sustain much output for very long. So calories burned from a session initially was pretty low. But then as you build your fitness and muscle - you start to be able to sustain higher and higher output, and for longer and longer - so calorie burn goes way up over time, which really helps with the weight coming down. I dropped from 96k to 68kg at "peak Adam" around my 40's, and am now at a more recreational 75kg - but thats with a lot more muscle than when i was 96kg. The trick is just enjoy and dont rush and you do what you can with your own work and family life time balance. But yeah especially if you are coming back from a major injury like a broken back - great work getting on the fitness and strength path. So many use an injury as reason why they cant do exercise - and so all that couch time just leads to muscle loss, which exacerbates issues recovering from injury, more meds for pain management, more couch time - more weight and supported by less muscle, which makes the injury worse.... its a bad spiral vs the positive spiral you are on, so yeehaa. Ps i had to have an operation (and i have reasonable asthma) before i started getting fit, and as part of a study i had my lung capacity tested, and it was 5.1litre, which for my bodyweight was 93% of average. So below average lung capacity for my age and weight. 8 years later as part of another test, my lung capacity had grown to 6.2litres, and at my new weight at the time, i was at 120% vs average. Suffice to say, exercise vs sedentary life made quite a difference to everything - musculature, lungs, heart, weight, well being. Once i got started i just cant fathom why i was so bad before! So yep, stay on it and enjoy. Try racing for fun if you like - you can always stop if you dont! Often its great to just start with very recreational events, and work way up (gravel is great for that) - or do some E grade zwift racing, you never know you might love it!
Thanks for that great video 🎉 I liked the part explaining the cog tooth‘s reducing the length for lateral flexibility very much. Good explanation.
These have become a staple for me every Friday
Same same...
Kitty need her own Chanel or, if not, the occasional special insert in an episode. Wonderful animals and admire you being her Personal Stylist 🎉🎉
Thx for another awesome vid Adam!!! I just seen an advertisement from Europe that Kmc is now selling prewaxed chains with their own house brand of wax they call it "go wax",and its a drip wax...Cheers!!!
thanks glenn!
yes it will be interesting how well that sells for them - overall i am not sure it will be widely released vs only what they sell direct from website as it is such a stock ordering nightmare for importers and retailers re how many of model x and colour y do they stock in FG or wax.
And i cant say officially but 99.99% their kmc go wax is squirt :). Which is fine, still way better than FG, and whilst not as optimal a n IM wax, one can at least just run that treatment down and move to waxing ok without needing to clean
KMC sell 'go waxed' DLC chains so I hope they've overcome the longevity issues as highlighted in Silcas ua-cam.com/video/l6OT503o6wY/v-deo.html ?
@@dawn_rider yeah there is a few bits in that vid i need to chat to josh on, my understanding (and i confirmed this with kmc) is that the DLC coating is EXTERNAL only, it is applied after chain construction. It has no impact on what is going on inside chain, it is in essence just a very expensive cosmetic coating.
I believe it is the type of low friction coating kmc use that causes wax bond issues, and i gotta say, i think it also shucks off a lot of wet lubricants too. The DLC chain was TERRIBLE in my chain wear testing project, i think it and the other kmc's tested were the worst wear life by miles.
I cant say for certain, but im personally 99.999999% certain kmc go wax is just licensed and rebranded squirt lube. Which is fine and dandy, that is still a vastly better start to ones chain lubrication life than factory grease. One can run the original squirt treatment down and then move to an IM wax without needing to clean, or to any other top lubricant choice - if wear original treatment down to when chain starts to sound a bit dry, there is less than a gram of wax lube left, so one can apply pretty much anything they like over that then without faffing with solvents / cleaning - so all up it is a good move by KMC, i just wish they did something about their low friction coating and general wear life.
but yeah - i dont think josh is correct re DLC being inside the chain and affecting lubricants or wax at all, it is only external, same as titanium nitride platings such as rainbow - i am not sure where / how he has seen difference in treatment lifespans as that is not something have seen here, so theres a bunch of stuff i want to get the test info he has where they have come across these issues on what are external platings only after chain construction
More data is my favorite. Thanks!!!
Good stuff as always. Thanks!
Contamination.
I absolutely not understand what happens with my chains. I made a measuring rod with a vernier scale in the end, so I can measure my chain length with 0.01% of the full length, give or take some calculation problems. That would be 2% on your scale if I am not mistaken.
I change chains after every 200km. While I used oil, I was able to measure wear nicely, like 0.02-0.03% per 200km (except for Sunrace, that thing just wears like no tomorrow). While I used oil, I wasn't able to totally clean the chain, I always heard the dirt's sound in the chain, while I made chain maintenance.
Then I switched to Squirt. First the wear did not change much, but then I learned that I don't have to degrease the chain if I use Squirt. After that I was not able to measure any wear, even though the chain were 0.25% longer than originally (Why chain wear gauges show 1% at that point?!) The dirt's noise disappeared as well. I applied Squirt about every 60km, which I find a bit excessive now.
Now I have new chainrings and cassette, and with a new chain I were able to replicate that result at around 0.02% wear. I will try apply Squirt at every 200km to see what happens. If the wear comes back, I will apply at every 100km.
It is also interesting that any company grease causes big jump in wear for me, but applying Squirt slows down/stops wear.
Unfortunately I can't bike enough to have fast results in chain wear :/
Hey there - apologies i having a little trouble following the above and questions around 0.25% and 1% wear. I am also not sure if riding on road or offroad? sounds offroad?
Generally speaking squirt is fairly long lasting, and over lubing with squirt will cause substantial excess build up with can gum things up, and also make wear checking difficult. For most lubricants learning when chains starts to sound and feel noticeably dry, then re lubing back a bit from that point - that is generally optimal (ie if normally goes to a dry sound and feel by about 10 hours cycling - then re lube at about 8 hours).
If your riding is offroad - whilst a good wax drip will generally well out perform wet, over time abrasive contamination will build up and the lubricant will become more abrasive and higher wear. Squirts recommendation not to degrease is simply because squirt has initial penetration issues which are a bit tricky to negate, so for most they would rather you just keep adding lube even though what is running inside is getting more abrasive vs removing all wax layers and now having to try to get wax back deep inside.
This is sort ok for dry road riding, but for offroad you need to periodically reset the contamination or you will pay for it in higher wear and friction, and for all lubes post any decent wet ride - road, and especially offroad.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for reading my long post 👍
I have a mountainbike but I usually ride on road.
I definitely overdid, as after relubing the chain was very stiff, and I always have to scrape squirt gunk from everywhere. Because of this I try to find what is the minimum I need to apply.
That initial penetrating issue would explain why I still had similar wear to oil while I degreased the chain after every 200km.
About the wear: I have a 55 link chain (110 rivets), which should be 55 inch long at 0%. Before I fell into the hot melt waxing rabbit hole and started to use new chains in my chain collection (I rotate multiple chains), they were about 55.137 inch long, which is bout 0.25% longer than should be. However, my cheap chain wear tool definitely fell into the chain (KMC universal chain checker wich just say ok or NG), Park Tool CC-2 definitely showd 1% wear (that thing drives me crazy with the 0.25% mark on brand new chains), only the Shimano TL-CN42 showed that the chain is still usable (I can't find information when should this tool fall into the chain).
Kitty need her own Chanel or, if not, the occasional special insert in an episode. Wonderful animals and admire you being her Personal Stylist 🎉🎉 Oh, and a ‘little’ to ‘little’ ring chainline seems to me to be a bigger factor than the ‘big’ to ‘big’ in terms of adding watts. Why? Well because every link has to be rotated a great deal more. The number of times that happens if a factor of course, so cadence is also a factor (the number of times the whole chain length is used per unit time 😊
yes sorry i didnt really go into covering that side of cross chaining as it is a much less common issue theses days with most 2x systems preventing one using small / small, and so its really uncommon to see one riding in smallest cog small ring vs use of biggest cog and big ring. Small / small also the issues come mostly from extra articulation inefficiency vs chain line angle itself which never gets very extreme. So big / big is much more common, and more likely to have angles that may exceed a chains lateral flexibility.
cadence is unlikely to be too big a deal if comparing same power output - ie 75 cadence for 250w of 100 cadence for 250w. Vs if one was in the corresponding gear in large chain ring - in large ring there will be many more links pulled through pulleys. However the articulation over chain ring and cog is lesser and at lower tension. the higher the cadence the more articulations but the lower the tension load per articulation. If just looking at 75 vs 100 in small, its the same factor. the articulations through the pulleys will be relatively negligeable factor due to generally light tension load, and then its more at lower tension vs less at higher tension on cog and ring
And yes kitty is quite something , she loves nothing more than being wrapped up in the biggest cuddles and spends most of the day luxuriating between different couches. Due to both there is also a lot of vacuuming of clothes and couches...
hello kitty, the ZFC dog, very comfy chair she has.
yeah its a togo, full foam (no frame) so they are light and easy to move around - we have 4.... i think.....including a double which they love to spread out on
On the potential loss of watts from cross-chaining...perhaps the most significant loss is the loss of sanity from the more noisy chain that can sometimes happen as things get more out of alignment. For those of us who are used to the bliss of a well-treated and completely silent chain, those enhanced noises from the cross-chaining can be maddening!
Definitely more doggo content please! ❤ Any news from SRAM on "0.8% gate"?
nope they are still organizing a call. those peeps in the chain department must be being worked to the bone! or they dont want to talk to me :) I think its the latter but i will keep trying, and gcn and silca are trying as well.
My guess is this is just a really annoying question / situation for them they will hope just fades away. I imagine they have been trying and failing to come up with the right spin to justify the 0.8% recommendation, so they dont want to have to answer the question because they dont have an acceptable answer, and they dont want to have to change the tool to 0.5% as that would say the current tools sold are wrong. So there are two things they very much do not want to do - provide an answer or update the tool, so they are no doubt planning to just stick heads in sand until it blows over.
I will do a stronger update like the above next week i think as well as send a reminder email containing the above.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 totally agree! I'm literally on the edge of my seat to see how it plays out.
Thanks for all this scientifically backed up very interesting content! You now convinced me and I ordered my first basic equipment for immersive waxing. When I come from a pre-used chain that has only seen UFO drip wax, would it be ok to clean it with boiling water, dry, and then put into the wax pot just like a chain that would come from immersive waxing or that is lubricated with drip and immersive waxing in an alternating manner?
Hey Olaf - yes that will be fine with UFO drip - that gets along very well with immersive waxing so a boiling water rinse if its seen a bunch of coatings, dry - wax - yeehaa. And then you can use UFO drip with your IM waxing to take pressure of always re waxing if that suits - generally up to 5 re lubes is fine to just re wax straight over no cleaning needed and all is grand.
My cheap immersive waxed KMC chains seem to have more chain metal wear particles in them than external contamination ! I always get 300km out of them in dry conditions without squeaking noises but spend a lot of time in the larger cassette sprockets. The chains are well within the 0.5% stretch limit after 1000's kms so I can only think the sideplates are being worn ? I really should check for changes in lateral flexibility ( bending radius ) with % elongation, although of course I do not know what changes are 'normal' . Eventually my plan is to replace these KMC chains with better quality YBN SLA ones.
There is a chain stiffness testing article by Damon Rinard , hosted on the Sheldonbrown website. No modern 11/128" chains were tested. It seems there is an opportunity for someone to create a new up to date results table? There may be a wide variance in results even for a particular chain model ?
I noticed the well deserved 'Quality Business Award' that ZFC has received 🙂
Hey! Yes you are a candidate for the new abbey tools LL checker, i think you would put such a tool to very good use!
Very interesting re chain stiffness testing, that is something i hope to be able to do in future with my tensile test machine just ah holy batman when to get time to play with that again. But even in the testing done, there are clear differences between chains - some stretch notably before failure, some much less and snap fail harder!
I do most of my riding on the flat. 50/34, 11/34. I feel better /it feels more efficient doing intervals uphill in 50/30 or 50/27 than dropping in the small ring. That small ring only feels relevant when I'm doing intervals up really steep gradients. Where I don't have a choice, basically.
Never tried to quantify the difference, may just be in my head too.
you are not alone, hanging onto the big ring feels better for many. With an 11/34 cassette, the 30 is cog 2, so a 50t to a 30t 2nd cog would be all groovy indeed and 50/27 for cog 3 will be rockin
@@zerofrictioncycling992 that's indeed cog 2 and 3. I'll take groovy and rockin then! Thanks!
Did you ever do a test on narrow/wide chainrings vs regular for general friction, or cross chaining? I swear the fatter grabby spots make cross chaining seem more of a detriment to my butt dyno but can't confirm. I have a road bike set up 1x and compared to my regular 2x setup, I swear it seems sticky. Same wax setup on everything.
Yes narrow wide will exacerbate cross chain issues a bit, there will be more friction between the side of outer link plates and the wide tooth vs normal ring, and this will be more and more so the more extreme the chain line angle. You can even see on some systems in the largest cog the outer link plates hitting top of the tooth before sliding down the side vs the link sliding neatly over the tooth. Aside from more losses and draggy running if the chain line angle is causing this on N/W rings, it will over time wear the wide teeth down, but it also can fatigue those rivets as well as under load there is a load pressure trying to pry those outer links off the pin rivets.
Your set up would likely really benefit from getting the cassette as outboard as you have clearance for (and in some cases mech limit range for) and ensuring crank is mounted as inboard as possible so no spacers between crank and bb - this does usually then require a pedal washer or two to get q factor back to same. but you will surprised how much a few mm at cassette and couple mm at front can do re making larger cogs so much better running (and less risk of chain fail)
20:20 it's actually worse than you are demonstrating, because the chain describes an 'S' shape as it releases from the cog, bends to its exit angle, then bends again through the entry angle to the chainring, all the while rubbing the sides of cog teeth, sideplates and rollers and pins at odd angles on one another. The chainring and selected cog are parallel to one another all the way up and down the cassette (cluster . . . !?), but only one or two cogs are approximately in line with the relevant chainring. Low flex angles are inherently more efficient/have less attendant friction than cross-chained large flex angled combinations. The two exit & entry bends both have much smaller radii than the free flex angle of the drive/pinion centre-to-centre length of the chain.
I always buy the best chain I can afford then always use immersion wax and re-wax between 600 and 1000 klm been getting over 12000 before 50% wear reaches
Thanks Adam. Hoping that you'll update us on the status of testing Silca's vs Ceramic Speed's UFO drivertrain cleaners...or do you think that Silca's strip chip has made these redundant?
Thanks ricardo! yeah i am trying to work on that slowly still - i have found it really hard to find a grease / oil detection agent - something i thought would be easy. I have given this a crack a few times over coffee's but im running out of links to check to try to find / purchase. there are UV lights for this but not all greases show up. And the professional ones are EXPENSIVE. A provider in the uk is willing to test if i send some chain sections before i purchase, so might have to go that path next, but preferably i would just like a liquid detection agent i can pop chain into after using Stripper / DT etc. It must exist, i really thought this would be common and easy to get!
And no definitely not redundant, to use strip chip one really needs a temp control pot or its a big temp faff juggle, and so for many unless shelling out the big bucks for the silca pot - the ease of just soaking chain for 10 mins in stripper, rinsing with boiling water, dry, wax - thats still just a really easy and attractive way to prep a chain for waxing (or top drip lube).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Hopefully the 'wax bonding agent' left by UFO DT cleaner won't give a positive test for grease ? Maybe deep clean some chain with solvent then clean with DT clean and see how that tests ? Given the shipping time and climate, you'll probably need to seal samples in airtight packaging, maybe with with desiccant to stop rust ( something that will not coat the samples in dust ).
I really notice the extra noise when cross chaining and that's what bothers me most
Ya, the chain says "mommy make the bad man stop".
For the record, it doesnt make me stop...
Exactly same for me
if chain is much noisier then either it is a bit on the limit - which if you want to run big big might be worth playing with cassette shims / removing spacer from DS crank, or yeah - some systems big big is just not going to optimal and its small ring time vs that
I am beginning to fear that Silca is going for profits and may be stretching the benefits of some of their newer products. I will not purchase until thoroughly tested
what about drip wax like silca super secret? does pouring hot water washes away the contamination?
Hey! mostly. UFO drip, SS drip and Tru tension tungsten all weather are the currently recommended options for use with IM waxing as you can just re wax straight over, or if using stand alone - a good periodic reset or post wet ride reset with just boiling water, dry, re lube - works great. It is not a 100% perfect clean, but boiling water baths do an impressive reset for very little time, effort and cost and so make them a great option as easy to keep day in day out low friction and wear
Does crosschaining on waxed chain wears out wax faster requiring more frequent rewaxing?
Yes. Its causing the components of the chain to move in a more extreme fashion. Which will push out more lubricant faster than not cross chaining. It most likley would also wear the chain out faster and the quick links may suffer too.
Its one of the awesome advantages of an electric shifting. You can delete cross chaining via software and turn the system into essentially a 1x20 drivetrain by switching to sequential shifting and letting the computer control the front derailleur 100%. You can even deep dive in the software to get the smallest gear jumps or adjust the overlap zone. I havent done it to mine yet, its all still new to me. Ive been on 4 rides with my new bike, loving every minute!
it depends - it will wear the wax off the surfaces of side of the roller and where than runs on inner link plate, as well as inner link plate to outer link plate. For road this doesnt generally become an issue (you will just start to have a dry sounding and feeling chain in your larger cogs) before time to rewax. For gravel / mtb - it can come up as an issue for long rides or events as dust can penetrate between those surfaces (but struggles to get deeper so main load surfaces are not seeing a shortened lifespan). The dust will abrade wax off those surfaces faster than not dust, and so running on high chain line angles with dust will simply see a dry sounding and feeling chain (and higher losses once wax is gone and not lubricating the sides of those parts) in the climbing gears well before wax treatment would be starting to give out on main load surfaces (pin, inner link plate bore, roller bore etc),
So sometimes if riders do a lot of climbing in really dusty environments - lessening the time in highest chain line angles which really loads up those surfaces will extend treatment lifespan on them. So this could mean for instance dropping from a 32t to a 30t ring if that enables one to spend more climbing time in one cog further down / so lesser chain line angle.
So now the Zwift Frame is out... Is it worth removing and waxing the chain? Or is it of negligible benefit on a single speed bike?
While all of my outdoor bikes have waxed chains, I use a wet lube (Silca Syner-g) on my indoor trainer. Since there's no contamination on an indoor bike, wax doesn't have the same benefits that it does outdoors--and it just makes a mess and needs somewhat frequent rewaxing. Based on Adam's testing, I did strip the factory grease before applying Syner-g. For maintenance, I simply wipe the chain down every so often and apply more lube when it gets "dry"---which takes FOREVER.
For serious racers the fastest lubricant still counts - but for most some of the very long lasting wet lubes may be easier as very long time between re applications, or clean wax drips like ss drip, tru tension, ceramic speed etc are popular
@@zerofrictioncycling992 That's true. If someone is racing on Zwift or Rouvy, then wax is faster. But I don't like cleaning up the wax snow indoors, and I'm not a virtual racer, so a low-mess wet lube is easy, low-wear, and clean. Outdoors, though, I'm all about wax!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 cheers. I already have some silca synergetic lube - does the chain need prepping as if I was going to wax it (I also have some silca chain stripper).
I'm defo not a racer... Just like to make bike components last a long time and avoid black paste on drive chain
My indoor training is done with my bike on a smart trainer, in my office, an office beige carpet and white walls. I think wax might be less likely to leave stains on walls and carpets than oil-based lubes, even if you are careful to wipe the chain down frequently. My assumption might be biased by my dread of the wife finding said stains on the walls and carpet. I've not had any issues with bits of wax (from immersion waxing) being flung off.
So a race chain is just a 3rd chain?
Also, dont degrease your shimano chainrings in ecolab purple "industrial degreaser" they are aluminum and it will eat the finish on them. Although it will remove the grease as intended...
ah it really depends on the racer and how much training. But yep for some it is if running two training chains on rotation :)
Sodium Hydroxide in your Ecolab degreaser is likely the problem. Josh at Silca has quite a good video on cleaning products , the relevant part being ua-cam.com/video/pZH2Fe1m1QM/v-deo.html . In the desciption he links ua-cam.com/video/uTgpcvGdyCw/v-deo.html which shows what happens.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I havent gotten into racing (yet). As long as were not counting other cyclists that dont know im racing them! Im still a bit green, below average power to weight, but I have gained a passion for the sport. Im riding 100+ miles a week, I can see my body changing, and my heart improving. I dont have plans on racing, but it could be a fun aspiration, after i can graduate another gear or two!
Im still amazed by the calories cycling burns. Its not what brought me to cycling, but its what is keeping me a cyclist. I broke my back and need the zerofriction!
@@brandonhoffman4712 Ah great stuff brandon! yeah i used to be quite a butterball myself! When i started my fitness journey, initially it was a slog - i didnt have the muscles, the muscle endurance, or the fitness to sustain much output for very long. So calories burned from a session initially was pretty low. But then as you build your fitness and muscle - you start to be able to sustain higher and higher output, and for longer and longer - so calorie burn goes way up over time, which really helps with the weight coming down. I dropped from 96k to 68kg at "peak Adam" around my 40's, and am now at a more recreational 75kg - but thats with a lot more muscle than when i was 96kg. The trick is just enjoy and dont rush and you do what you can with your own work and family life time balance.
But yeah especially if you are coming back from a major injury like a broken back - great work getting on the fitness and strength path. So many use an injury as reason why they cant do exercise - and so all that couch time just leads to muscle loss, which exacerbates issues recovering from injury, more meds for pain management, more couch time - more weight and supported by less muscle, which makes the injury worse.... its a bad spiral vs the positive spiral you are on, so yeehaa.
Ps i had to have an operation (and i have reasonable asthma) before i started getting fit, and as part of a study i had my lung capacity tested, and it was 5.1litre, which for my bodyweight was 93% of average. So below average lung capacity for my age and weight.
8 years later as part of another test, my lung capacity had grown to 6.2litres, and at my new weight at the time, i was at 120% vs average.
Suffice to say, exercise vs sedentary life made quite a difference to everything - musculature, lungs, heart, weight, well being. Once i got started i just cant fathom why i was so bad before! So yep, stay on it and enjoy. Try racing for fun if you like - you can always stop if you dont! Often its great to just start with very recreational events, and work way up (gravel is great for that) - or do some E grade zwift racing, you never know you might love it!
Her fur is so soft she should have a channel called "zero friction petting"