Yeah that brace could absolutely NOT be used as a shoulder stock, it is impossible! Also that front magazine holder is obviously not a grip, it's a magazine holder and can only be used as a grip if you register it as a short barrelled rifle. US gun laws and the workarounds are sometimes very, very, very silly.
Like everywhere, in my country, you cannot buy a pistol with a stock since it would be considered a rifle under 60cm (who is forbidden), but a pistol with a stock is still a pistol with a stock, so no problem,for now.
Full disclosure, Fun Jesus, I'm actually fine with Sig giving you one for review. Your presentation of it isn't like a commercial full of fluff and fancy. Its clear and concise. And that's worth the price of admission. Thanks for doing this video.
The maximum length stock really puts the gun into the "same size as a genuine SMG", which seems counterproductive. It looks slightly longer with the stock stowed than the 1990s MP5K-PDW with a side folded stock. The minimum length stock seems the most in line with the design intent of the chassis, although I wonder if reducing the vertical length to about even with the bottom of the grip would compromise its utility as a stock all that much. The medium length is probably a practical compromise. I also wonder if there is an extended slide and barrel combo that comes right to the end of the chassis. Since you can't make the gun any shorter than the frame, might as well use ALL the frame length forward and eke out an extra 50 FPS or so, if you can.
Good thoughts. The 5.5 inch full size threaded barrel is flush with the end of the frame, I have various comp designs that would make the slide aesthetically flush. It’s still very small with the 1.5”, much smaller than SMGs. The 1.5” stock is the most used variant by SOF.
This really does look like "a solution looking for a problem", or "a we could so we did" or more likely "how can we get someones bean counter happy", there's better SMG's, better carbines, and better PDW's for its role, it's good points are you already have a SLA with Sig and you have Sig mags and 9mm, downsides is you have a P320's range, stopping power, and penetration, and I would rather have any one of the things it lacks over all of it's good points be that stay away, stay down, or stay in cover.
@@MrTrilbego ahead name few PDWs in this size class. I could mention B&T's USW A1 and Glock/320 Chassis, TP9/MP9, Micro Uzi, MAC-10. Flux Raider surprisingly is one of the better option. MP5K is just too big. Also if you haven't grasp the concept of PDW, go watch Brass Facts' video about it
Y'all folks comparing it to SMGs and going "So what?" are missing the point. Even at SIG prices, it's still lots of kilobucks less than the entry price for a 40+ year old SMG, not to mention finding parts when something breaks while you're converting dollars to holiness. Start thinking of it as a pistol-caliber carbine which fits in the nightstand drawer and you'll find it's legitimate raison d'être. Which would you rather have when investigating something that went bump in the night: two hands on one of these or one hand on a (pick your favorite 9mm pistol)?
PDWs always suffer from the "Hey that's too cool for the losers who it was designed for." effect. They end up on the tip of the spear where people find out it's still just a slightly easier to shoot pistol. Which shouldn't be shocking but as generations of PDW design has shown. It always is.
TY Ian. As a low key pdw it has a place. There is some terrain , like doghair scrub forest where 10' ft is all you can see, and maybe hunt with it. Not my 1st. pick of what's available.
Even if it didn't end up being reliable, this is just cool enough to warrant use. But fortunately it seems to actually be highly functional. I was hoping he'd try out the iron sights as well since there is the little passthrough under the rail.
Seems like a fun little range toy (for me), but at the price point for that particular setup, there are a lot of fun things non-NFA one could buy. Just my $.02...
Try it with a EOtech XPS . I tried a few different optics and it is by far the best setup from an easy of use perspective. It allows for better head placement and some fund night vision use cases.
@@BenfromFlux I’m everywhere 😆 I’ll have to check them out. Thanks for getting the deposits out before Christmas. Merry Christmas and best wishes to you, your family and the team 🎄
I suppose that the longest stock option might be better for a different type of optic but otherwise it doesn't seem practical either for concealment or for shooting.
9:00 -ish Maybe suggest to the SiG or Flux folks to make a backstrap 'cover' that could be detached and thrown over the stock rails for a cheek weld that could be adjusted / placed by each shooter where it would be the best fit?
I might have misheard, but in the previous video I think he said the chassis itself is the NFA item. Which I found odd, since it’s a non-firearm. Maybe it’s the SBR equivalent of an auto sear?
Stupid question and I'll take however many L's I need to 😂 but is that chassis only for the 9mm? I know the 320 also has a .45 version, that's why I'm asking
You could always get a Recover 20/20 brace for a 1911...with Wilson Combat 10 rounders and a dot mounted to the chassis it's cyberpunk as hell and highly efficacious
prob only 9 mm bcs the chassis is made with injection mold, to make one for 45 they would need an entire new mold which would be very expensive if there arent enough people who have them
Having shot a few of these all of your complaints with the stock are not an issue with the recover tactical setup I run on my G17. you have to use slide mounted optic but I run the HS507 comp and the sight picture is quite nice. I agree about the manual safety being a requirement and found one that works with my glock setup
I'm thinking this is a solution to a problem that never really existed 🤨... But if not for the price of entry, it looks like a good range piece and/or niche thingy.
Very likely, the Sig runs because you have changed your hat. Not wearing the hat in H9 and Momba reviews is good juju. The short or medium butt plates reduce overall length.
I wonder how many rounds it would actually take to loosen any screws in the stock to a noticiable degree I dunno much about handguns and their quality of manufacture but I imagine the recoil isn't all that much at the end of the day. Would genuinely love to find out for sure though
It'll be intetesting to see the value of the mag holder in the match. Is it worth learning to use that all the different fiddly mag drop optiond compared to just spending the same time polishing a regular reload?
I want to see this put through its paces like the USW. You found that the mechanical accuracy of the base P320 platform prevented making the kind of accurate shots at range you were hoping for. I'm wondering if the improved ergonomics of the Legion in comparison might allow for faster follow-up shots than with the USW
Looks like you could add a good 2 inches of barrel length without increasing the total length with how far that bottom lip goes forward. I hope the polymer is not degraded over time by the muzzle blast?
The 1st time i saw this thing was in bf2042's Beta, and i thought: "meh, a future pistol-esque concept without real value". But after seeing the videos about the real one and its features, it has pretty cool ideas! I would love to see something similar for the Five seveN.
Seems like some kind of handle to help pull the slide/cock the gun would really improve this design. Would you pick a full auto Raider over a Sten MkII?
The range test videos are most enjoyable but wouldn't it be possible to have a camera on the target as well. Appreciate that its extra cost to you and editing for your good cameraman but I think it would add hugely to viewer satisfaction 🙏
Even more after the first video I keep thinking it's a very cool gun with big toy but little real world usage. to carry it around it really doesn't look holsterable, so a real pistol would be better. If you are carrying it on a sling or in a rack in a vehicle you probably have room for a real PDW.
I'm hoping they'll make one for the ruger RXM because it uses a fire control chassis. I would like to have a raider but I don't want anything to do with the P320 due to the issues they keep having.
Legality of this thing is more interesting than its mechanics or ergonomics. Could you only grip the “NOT A GRIP” because you got the SBR license? Does it still matter if it’s a grip or not with it? Can you use the official stock as an arm brace if you want? How practical would this be in full auto? Also, how do you rate this thing against historical stocked pistols you’ve fired?
The VFG on pistols thing is a misconception. Though ATF says otherwise, there is no law that says adding a forward grip on a pistol is illegal. What they quote is parts of the NFA and parts of the GCA that contradict each other, fusing the two into a law that doesn't exist.
I've thought hard on buying one of these and have come to the conclusion that I just don't know where a 9mm pistol PDW would work for me. After hearing Brassfacts talk about the wandering zero of the chassis mounted optic and pistol slide combo and Ian's video on the USW of it just not being a great performer at 100 yards I really don't see an application. Yes it certainly is cool but I feel my 8" .300 BLK serves better as a small handy weapon. It's light, compact, no issues suppressed, all while launching a 125gr .30 cal projectile at 2000fps or super quiet subs.
Yeah, I just put a Recover Tactical brace on my 10mm Glock G20 and called it good. Works well and the extra points of contact help with recoil management.
So if you hold on to the place that says "NOT A GRIP" and you put the pistol brace against your shoulder is that automatically a $100,000 fine and 10 years in prison per the NFA? Just asking for a friend.
I've never shot a 320, but it's DA/SA? I live just above the border in Arizona and something like this would make a perfect horse gun, but dammit! It's that first shot that counts and a DA pull would be a waste. Can you cock a 320 (like say a Beretta 92) so it can be safely carried in SA mode?
The Raider is fabulous off the rack merchandising. Since Glock has become non innovative . Ruger and MagPul might market an, arm braced, similar item based on Gen 3 Glock 35's with optional: 40 s&w, .357 Sig and converted 9x19mm barrels tomorrow.
When you spend all the upgrade points on the basic pistol.
Double pack a punch the starter
sometimes the starter pistol is the most op like in resident evil 8 after you upgrade it
"Why is my pistol now in the rifle category?"
Apart from the suppressor. Deus Ex: Human Revolution for the win.
Beat me to it XD
Yeah that brace could absolutely NOT be used as a shoulder stock, it is impossible! Also that front magazine holder is obviously not a grip, it's a magazine holder and can only be used as a grip if you register it as a short barrelled rifle.
US gun laws and the workarounds are sometimes very, very, very silly.
ATF Director Herrera is going to take care of that.
It seems to have a bigger trigger guard as well, similar to the Baretta 93r 🤔😅
what do you mean, "sometimes"?
That is for use with gloves, obviously! @@RaDeus87
Like everywhere, in my country, you cannot buy a pistol with a stock since it would be considered a rifle under 60cm (who is forbidden), but a pistol with a stock is still a pistol with a stock, so no problem,for now.
Full disclosure, Fun Jesus, I'm actually fine with Sig giving you one for review. Your presentation of it isn't like a commercial full of fluff and fancy. Its clear and concise. And that's worth the price of admission. Thanks for doing this video.
I wish there was a stock attachment that made Ian's sound of the stock shooting out, such as "Huuah!" and "Kawammo!"
some poor soldier is going to lose that hex wrench and will have a serious earful from their commanding officer
*SSG but yes
Fastest pistol to rifle conversion i've ever seen.
You forget the time where when you "manufactured" a "rifle" when you shouldered your braced pistol 😂
@@Kremit_the_Forg Schrodinger's stock
Can see this getting used a lot in future Sci-Fi movies, it just has that cool aesthetic.
Love the brass facts shout-out at the end
The maximum length stock really puts the gun into the "same size as a genuine SMG", which seems counterproductive. It looks slightly longer with the stock stowed than the 1990s MP5K-PDW with a side folded stock.
The minimum length stock seems the most in line with the design intent of the chassis, although I wonder if reducing the vertical length to about even with the bottom of the grip would compromise its utility as a stock all that much.
The medium length is probably a practical compromise.
I also wonder if there is an extended slide and barrel combo that comes right to the end of the chassis. Since you can't make the gun any shorter than the frame, might as well use ALL the frame length forward and eke out an extra 50 FPS or so, if you can.
Good thoughts. The 5.5 inch full size threaded barrel is flush with the end of the frame, I have various comp designs that would make the slide aesthetically flush.
It’s still very small with the 1.5”, much smaller than SMGs.
The 1.5” stock is the most used variant by SOF.
This really does look like "a solution looking for a problem", or "a we could so we did" or more likely "how can we get someones bean counter happy", there's better SMG's, better carbines, and better PDW's for its role, it's good points are you already have a SLA with Sig and you have Sig mags and 9mm, downsides is you have a P320's range, stopping power, and penetration, and I would rather have any one of the things it lacks over all of it's good points be that stay away, stay down, or stay in cover.
@@MrTrilbego ahead name few PDWs in this size class. I could mention B&T's USW A1 and Glock/320 Chassis, TP9/MP9, Micro Uzi, MAC-10. Flux Raider surprisingly is one of the better option. MP5K is just too big. Also if you haven't grasp the concept of PDW, go watch Brass Facts' video about it
Y'all folks comparing it to SMGs and going "So what?" are missing the point.
Even at SIG prices, it's still lots of kilobucks less than the entry price for a 40+ year old SMG, not to mention finding parts when something breaks while you're converting dollars to holiness.
Start thinking of it as a pistol-caliber carbine which fits in the nightstand drawer and you'll find it's legitimate raison d'être. Which would you rather have when investigating something that went bump in the night: two hands on one of these or one hand on a (pick your favorite 9mm pistol)?
PDWs always suffer from the "Hey that's too cool for the losers who it was designed for." effect. They end up on the tip of the spear where people find out it's still just a slightly easier to shoot pistol.
Which shouldn't be shocking but as generations of PDW design has shown. It always is.
Man hollywood is gonna love these pdw pistol conversions
they're gonna be in every trash action spy movie in 3-4 years
The fact that Ben has almost made GM in PCC with this thing when he's competing against purpose built AR-pattern race guns is very cool
I am looking forward to a RxM Raider.
I like that hat, the camo pattern is exactly or very similar to the one used before by the Colombian army
That would be because it is a Colombian Army hat ;)
@@ForgottenWeapons :D
Watched your first video already. I really enjoy the dual magazines ejection button.
Another great video as always. Really looks like a neat little weapon 👍
The stowage for the hex wrench should be universally copied by EVERYONE. Thank you Ian, for another good morning vidio. 😊
TY Ian. As a low key pdw it has a place. There is some terrain , like doghair scrub forest where 10' ft is all you can see, and maybe hunt with it. Not my 1st. pick of what's available.
Even if it didn't end up being reliable, this is just cool enough to warrant use. But fortunately it seems to actually be highly functional. I was hoping he'd try out the iron sights as well since there is the little passthrough under the rail.
I love all the sound effects in this one lol
It’s the best pdw I’ve ever had.
I've not seen anything like it since SIG met Sauer. OwO
Now we just need Sig to make a modernised beretta 93r inspired 3 round burst pistol...
In the end, Brass Facts always wins lmao. We will all fall to the great PDW
Nice little kit. Add a good silencer that'll improve the accuracy a bit and you've got a neat little pistol caliber carbine.
Seems like a fun little range toy (for me), but at the price point for that particular setup, there are a lot of fun things non-NFA one could buy. Just my $.02...
Lmao anyone who calls things like this a "range toy" is never to be taken seriously.
@@zerofactor7871people that think they're going to EDC this tacticool PDW to their local McDonald's are the ones that shouldn't be taken seriously.
Happy earliest Xmas, Ian McCollum.
Try it with a EOtech XPS . I tried a few different optics and it is by far the best setup from an easy of use perspective. It allows for better head placement and some fund night vision use cases.
I went with the middle length butt stock on mine as well. It felt the best to me
If I had one of those I’d have to call it my “Flux Capacitor”. Edit, just thought of a way better name, ‘Flux Incapacitor”.
Still think it needs a slide racker, maybe in place of the front sight. Also, with a suppressor mounted, its probably the size of an MP5...
Okay, now for the ultimate question: does the add-on stock/brace actually improve your accuracy?
First time I saw the title I thought it had something to do with Aeon Flux.
It wouldn’t be too out of place in the cartoon!
That is really cool Ian. I would love to be able to purchase the Sig and that cool kit. But for me, I would just keep the arm rest.
Every action flick coming in the next few years will feature that thing and its cool mag swap feature.
Looks fun. Is there a variant of this you can suppress?
Yes, just need a threaded barrel and slide for it
Have you tried the new 365 raider?
Hey man, cool to see you here. He did at SHOT, has some shorts about it.
@@BenfromFlux I’m everywhere 😆
I’ll have to check them out. Thanks for getting the deposits out before Christmas.
Merry Christmas and best wishes to you, your family and the team 🎄
Does it still fire when you drop it
Not just when dropped, but also when sitting untouched in a holster.
I suppose that the longest stock option might be better for a different type of optic but otherwise it doesn't seem practical either for concealment or for shooting.
9:00 -ish Maybe suggest to the SiG or Flux folks to make a backstrap 'cover' that could be detached and thrown over the stock rails for a cheek weld that could be adjusted / placed by each shooter where it would be the best fit?
Where do you engrave the NFA info on the FCU?
I might have misheard, but in the previous video I think he said the chassis itself is the NFA item.
Which I found odd, since it’s a non-firearm. Maybe it’s the SBR equivalent of an auto sear?
There is a VERY small area on the fcu that is visible through a window in the raider chassis. That is where I engraved mine.
@@PrebleStreetRecords "Chassis" in this case means the P320 FCU not the Flux Raider.
If ever an automatic sear was called for!!!
But is it safe now? I would rather not get shot in the gizzards by my own sidearm.
Stupid question and I'll take however many L's I need to 😂 but is that chassis only for the 9mm? I know the 320 also has a .45 version, that's why I'm asking
You could always get a Recover 20/20 brace for a 1911...with Wilson Combat 10 rounders and a dot mounted to the chassis it's cyberpunk as hell and highly efficacious
Recover 2020 also makes a Glock 21 chasis and Vektor makes stendos tho I'm not sure exactly what capacity.
prob only 9 mm bcs the chassis is made with injection mold, to make one for 45 they would need an entire new mold which would be very expensive if there arent enough people who have them
Those stock screws should have Mauser style screws for retaining the screws.
Nice watch Ian. Marathon GSAR
About the same price as the gun, too!
Having shot a few of these all of your complaints with the stock are not an issue with the recover tactical setup I run on my G17. you have to use slide mounted optic but I run the HS507 comp and the sight picture is quite nice. I agree about the manual safety being a requirement and found one that works with my glock setup
Now it needs a burst mod to complete the look and give that break a reason to exist.
It seems that, as with most things, the middle option is generally the best.
You should try that technique for stock-less shotgun and compare it to the short stock.
14:00 dual holsters to use for both your rifle and pistol for the night match? :D
Ian, can you please tell me what watch that is you're wearing. Thanks.
Marathon GSAR
A recommendation for "Brass Facts"? That's a big deal coming from you. I'm sure he will be thrilled.
I'm thinking this is a solution to a problem that never really existed 🤨... But if not for the price of entry, it looks like a good range piece and/or niche thingy.
Well, now you've got to buy it since you've already gone ahead and sbr'd it, ,darn, I know that just breaks your heart 😊
Love that hat Ian !!!! Where did you pit it up ?????👍👍👍
If only 22TCM/5.56x45 barrels were available for Sig, then this’d really be a pocket AR!
Very likely, the Sig runs because you have changed your hat. Not wearing the hat in H9 and Momba reviews is good juju.
The short or medium butt plates reduce overall length.
Do the 365 version next and compare
8:49 THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID! 😂
I wonder how many rounds it would actually take to loosen any screws in the stock to a noticiable degree
I dunno much about handguns and their quality of manufacture but I imagine the recoil isn't all that much at the end of the day. Would genuinely love to find out for sure though
It'll be intetesting to see the value of the mag holder in the match. Is it worth learning to use that all the different fiddly mag drop optiond compared to just spending the same time polishing a regular reload?
I want to see this put through its paces like the USW. You found that the mechanical accuracy of the base P320 platform prevented making the kind of accurate shots at range you were hoping for. I'm wondering if the improved ergonomics of the Legion in comparison might allow for faster follow-up shots than with the USW
Cool! 😎
Looks like you could add a good 2 inches of barrel length without increasing the total length with how far that bottom lip goes forward. I hope the polymer is not degraded over time by the muzzle blast?
I need one of these but I will wait till it's below 400 for a chasis
It needs a threaded barrel for a silencer more than a comp
That gun shoulda been in Star Wars.
I tink Poe Dameron’s blaster was based on a SIG
Can it be reasonably used as a pistol with the non brace buttplates, or does it get in the way when collapsed? Thanks for the content.
Now you can put a pistol grip on the front
Wow the gun didnt ND on this video or blow up. Nice job Sig!
The 1st time i saw this thing was in bf2042's Beta, and i thought: "meh, a future pistol-esque concept without real value". But after seeing the videos about the real one and its features, it has pretty cool ideas! I would love to see something similar for the Five seveN.
That would be the P90. Or the Ruger 57 carbine.
Have you ever tried out the Recover 2020 chassis?
I've a question: can you suppress this thing (obvs not with the comp but otherwise)?
Seems like some kind of handle to help pull the slide/cock the gun would really improve this design.
Would you pick a full auto Raider over a Sten MkII?
Is this a complete gun? With Sig pricing it's hard to justify if just an "upgrade" kit?
Sig sells it as a complete firearm. Flux has just the chassis.
good video
With a stock, this almost begs for a burst version to top it off as a PDW.
The range test videos are most enjoyable but wouldn't it be possible to have a camera on the target as well. Appreciate that its extra cost to you and editing for your good cameraman but I think it would add hugely to viewer satisfaction 🙏
Would be interesting to see how the conversion happens if you could do it yourself
Well now i want this thing in a video game, starting as a basic SIG pistol until you end up with this final form
A similar one is in battlefield 2042
Even more after the first video I keep thinking it's a very cool gun with big toy but little real world usage. to carry it around it really doesn't look holsterable, so a real pistol would be better. If you are carrying it on a sling or in a rack in a vehicle you probably have room for a real PDW.
Normally I can identify the hats but I'm at a loss today?
Colombian
Unbelievable you had to SBR it for that little bit of plastic. Oh and you can hold the not a grip.😅
I'm hoping they'll make one for the ruger RXM because it uses a fire control chassis. I would like to have a raider but I don't want anything to do with the P320 due to the issues they keep having.
Interesting
I am planning on getting a Ruger RXM
IMO that could make a nice add on instead of the Sig
With a Glock 17 barrel
Ported pistol at night?
Legality of this thing is more interesting than its mechanics or ergonomics. Could you only grip the “NOT A GRIP” because you got the SBR license? Does it still matter if it’s a grip or not with it? Can you use the official stock as an arm brace if you want? How practical would this be in full auto? Also, how do you rate this thing against historical stocked pistols you’ve fired?
The VFG on pistols thing is a misconception. Though ATF says otherwise, there is no law that says adding a forward grip on a pistol is illegal. What they quote is parts of the NFA and parts of the GCA that contradict each other, fusing the two into a law that doesn't exist.
Seems like a bit of a kludge tbh.
Ooo! Could you imagine this in 7.5FK ??
Or 22TCM.
uhoh, is bolting on a new stock "modifying a firearm"? Don't tell utoob
I've thought hard on buying one of these and have come to the conclusion that I just don't know where a 9mm pistol PDW would work for me. After hearing Brassfacts talk about the wandering zero of the chassis mounted optic and pistol slide combo and Ian's video on the USW of it just not being a great performer at 100 yards I really don't see an application. Yes it certainly is cool but I feel my 8" .300 BLK serves better as a small handy weapon. It's light, compact, no issues suppressed, all while launching a 125gr .30 cal projectile at 2000fps or super quiet subs.
Yeah, I just put a Recover Tactical brace on my 10mm Glock G20 and called it good. Works well and the extra points of contact help with recoil management.
As an AR fanboy, I was wondering why those screws aren't retained. 😛
So if you hold on to the place that says "NOT A GRIP" and you put the pistol brace against your shoulder is that automatically a $100,000 fine and 10 years in prison per the NFA? Just asking for a friend.
I've never shot a 320, but it's DA/SA? I live just above the border in Arizona and something like this would make a perfect horse gun, but dammit! It's that first shot that counts and a DA pull would be a waste. Can you cock a 320 (like say a Beretta 92) so it can be safely carried in SA mode?
Tim Kennedy approves of this firearm, but probably not for John Q Public.
Yep. John Q needs full auto with explosive armor piercing. Anything less causes too little collateral damage
@dwrdwlsn5 Stop licking boots Tim
ATF watching the brace being replaced :(
The Raider is fabulous off the rack merchandising. Since Glock has become non innovative . Ruger and MagPul might market an, arm braced, similar item based on Gen 3 Glock 35's with optional: 40 s&w, .357 Sig and converted 9x19mm barrels tomorrow.
tighten those screws inside the sight?, Nah... they be fine 🤷♂
😂
Cool but that chassis isn’t worth $540. Bring it down 50% and I might be interested.
What does this all cost?