“I feel a little duped”: Electrifying.com FACT CHECKS Rowan Atkinson’s electric car column
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- #electriccars #factcheck #rowanatkinson
Can we just start by saying that we’re big fans of Rowan Atkinson at Electrifying.com. He loves cars, we love cars, and we love his work. This week, however, hasn’t been his best. In an opinion column in The Guardian newspaper concerning electric cars, Atkinson put forward some rather questionable ‘facts’ about electric cars and the automotive industry.
These included: “greenhouse gas emissions during production of an electric car are 70% higher than when manufacturing a petrol one” and “The problem lies with the lithium-ion batteries fitted currently to nearly all electric vehicles: they’re absurdly heavy, many rare earth metals and huge amounts of energy are required to make them, and they only last upwards of 10 years”
We think statements like this, coming from someone who is at pains to point out their scientific credentials - his degree was in electrical and electronic engineering, with a subsequent master’s in control systems - are a bit misleading, without some further context.
And because it’s been picking up quite a lot of coverage - we decided to give Rowan Atkinson's opinion piece in the Guardian newspaper a bit of a fact check and also give it some of that context. You see, at Electrifying we like to get the facts straight. To make sure you’re armed with the right answers when someone asks you down the pub.
Join Ginny, Nicki and Nicola as they fact-check the column that everyone has been talking about. And don’t forget to tell us (we’re sure you won’t) what your opinion is in the comments below.
-------------------------------
We upload new videos to Electrifying.com every week. Don't miss one by subscribing now: bit.ly/3U9z1RE
Visit our website at www.electrifying.com/
Electrifying.com is the UK’s leading car electric car news and review site. Founded by Ginny Buckley, we are the go-to site for the latest developments in the world of electric cars and the latest reviews of the newest models. Our site is packed with advice and information written in plain english for those looking to make the switch or wanting to find out more about the world of electric cars.
Our reviews are written by some of the most experienced reviewers in the business and will even help you find the perfect new or used car.
New Car reviews: bit.ly/3VrTy5c
The latest electric car news: bit.ly/3gvFfh5
Tips and advice: bit.ly/3XtKWMW
Sign up to our email newsletter for a monthly round-up of all our electric car news, reviews and advice: bit.ly/3Ud6zyw
Follow Electrifying.com:
LIKE Electrifying.com on Facebook: bit.ly/3XvUjMo
FOLLOW Electrifying.com on Twitter: bit.ly/3OG04TG
FOLLOW Electrifying.com on Instagram: bit.ly/3tZnBVS
Check out our full video library: bit.ly/2W81iu9 - Авто та транспорт
![ПОЛНАЯ ИСТОРИЯ ЭКЗОРЦИЗМА [Топ Сикрет]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qBySr6Bt0B8/mqdefault.jpg)
Just to add a bit of structural engineering context to the issue of overloaded car parks: Category F Design imposed loading on car park structures = 2.5 kPa (Ref EN 1991-1-1 or BS 6399-1). Typical car parking space dimensions 2.4m x 4.8m. Therefore design imposed load per car park space = 2.5 x 2.4 x 4.8 kN = 28.8kN or 2935kg. So until the average weight of cars exceeds approximately 2.9te (no matter the fuel type) then car park structures should generally remain quite happy to support your car without too much stress!
If enough people in Britain starts driving the new humvee or heaven help us the tesla truck the solution parking stations would have worked be to mark out larger parking bays, to bring the pressure to within specifications. And obviously charge extra for the privilege. Not ban the cars from the stations. I doubt enough people in Britain is going to buy such cars though, they will not fit on most side roads.
The fact that many ICE based cars are getting heavier, while electric cars will get lighter as battery energy is improved and in the case of Tesla the use of Gigapress to reduce material.
There are already cautions in the UK over some heavy ICE SUVs being over a car driver's licence limit of 3.5 tons if the vehicle is fully laden with passengers and their luggage.
@@francesconicoletti2547 To be fair, I doubt they will fit in said car parks anyway. 😁
What about the car parks built before 1991?
EVs will get cleaner each year and they can also be used to balance the grid- ie power transfered each way
Where is all the Lithium and Copper coming from to EV every car and truck on the planet.
@@davidlewis4399what about the hundreds of thousands of vapes people are throwing on the floor every day?
@@davidlewis4399 🤣🤣🤣
What a load of Bull.....
Do you seriously think anyone is going to donate to the grid with their EV?
Why don’t you invite Rowan Atkinson to come and discuss this with you on camera. Could be really interesting to see his response to the rebuttals of his article.
Yeah he won't show up firstly he is a baf00n secondly he has nothing to bring to the table thats worth our time.
@@user-mj9tr3ym5tjust like ev propaganda
It’d be good that, a lot of people who keep going "bean" they seem to forget his scientific background
There's so many people spreading wrong information cos they haven't bothered to educate themselves.
I appreciate conversations like this.
Because people have an agenda. And push what they like, and cherry pick facts.
Lobbyists get paid for doing it. Most are not capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. And yes some just have an agenda - either because they don’t like the change or are conspiracy pushers. The oil companies all have an agenda, of course.
@@leftcoaster67as this channel also has to do? Agenda pushing works both ways
The sad truth is that sensationalism sells. How many people who believed and are spreading the Atkinson article are going to watch this? A competing article that covers the materiel they talk about here would simply not sell papers (or drive clicks) because the truth is boring.
I own a 2014 Tesla model S 85 with 72,000 miles on the clock and a battery which is currently at 92% according to my local Tesla dealership (I asked them to carry out a diagnostic last month). I have a friend who owns a similar age car, with 120,000 miles, and HIS battery is still over 90% !
Oh goody.. you must be happy.... so would I given you are going to be up for near $30K for a new battery...... enjoy when that happens
It’s generally known that a Tesla battery will last 120,000 miles. So good luck replacing it after then as there’s no way round a fault code one day you start the car up the fault code pings up and there’s no moving the car until you shell out £15,000.
@@alfie217 It’s getting cheaper on a daily basis. The guy who sold me my Model S now works on them… including reconditioning existing batteries. He reckons he could bring my battery up to 100% for as little as $2,000.
Another company will replace my existing battery (with a 90 kWh one) for around $7,000, as long as they get the original one to then recondition.
Well done ⚡ team. As a petrol head & X racing driver I have to accept change and facts ref the planet. So should Mr Bean. Yes I miss engine sound, currently enjoying my new EV though.
Good for you. Any affection for the noise and smell of an engine (something I have enjoyed in the past too) is when you think about it...childish.
@@a07z Yes, I miss these things too - The smells more than the noise, because lets face it, anyone who's lived with a sports exhaust on a day-to-day basis knows, it gets old real quick and hardly anything with less than 8 cylinders really sounds that good anyway. Most of the people complaining have never had anything other than a 4 cylinder generic buzz box. The rest of us know, it's not childish, it's just in the past. I'm never going back; the smells & sounds are just not worth the accompanying dial-up throttle response and abusive relationship with the petrochemical industry! 😆
Good job ladies! Would be interesting to see what you'd find if you selected an appropriate max weight (say 2000kg) and then found out how many MPs and Lords drive cars over that limit and sent them all letters advising them that their cars might be banned from using multi-level parking lots.
It a problem for the outdated multi-level parking lot owners, all cars are much heavier than cars were 50 years ago, not just BEVs
@@casperhansen826 In North America our best selling "car" is the Ford F-Series Pickup Truck, in 2021 they sold about 750,000 of these compared to 300,000 Toyota Camrys. Plus the number two and three sellers were also big pickups from GM and Dodge (about 500,000 units each). These "cars" weigh in from about 2000 - 2500kg unloaded (which is important to note as they often have a bunch of extra stuff installed on them). So our parking lots will benefit from an electric transition only if people don't just switch to buying electric pickups (the F150 Lightning is 2700 - 3200kg).
Cobalt is not required for the newer EV batteries (Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo), Lithium/Sodium Hybrid cells, and for smaller cars, Sodium ion cells.
Oh bugger! Having commented on this, UA-cam has has stuffed half a a dozen Mr Bean videos on my 'to watch' list. 😂
Uhhhggg. This is starting out poorly, folks. You don't debunk a statement about batteries lasting 10 years by googling Leafs that ARE still for sale and noting that THOSE cars have working batteries. A) if a 10-11 year old Leaf has a failed battery, you're not going to see it listed for sale. It's in the scrapper/wrecker/auction. B) many Leafs that did have a failed battery have had to have their batteries replaced, so perusing Leafs for sale and not enquiring about all of them having original batteries or the battery SOH is lazy, and not scientific. Point Atkinson, not you, but you could have found a better argument for your point.
Children are dying for these fucking batteries and these Witches are being paid by some child-murdering company to hide the elephant in the room.
The Nissan Leaf batteries mainly failed due to lack of cooling of the batteries. This problem is basically solved in more advanced BEVs.
I can never understand so many negative comments about going electric, the main reason should be is air quality, the major air polluter are vehicles that run on fossel fuels, if you live in the city or large urban areas just look up in the sky the red you can see is nitrogen oxides , this is major air quality pollution which reduces life expectancy. we have on average 18 percent oxygen in the atmosphere, The argument should not be how long a electric vehicle gets into the emission positive before the ICE engines but the air we breathe now to make a cleaner environment .
So important to see the improvement trends from the technology. Having taken the plunge with a nearly new Nissan Leaf it’s good to hear the car has already reached its carbon payback. We’re also taking it into major credit by so far powering it exclusively from solar (hopefully 8 months in 12 ongoing and with a green energy supplier the other 4). The recycling side is moving faster now too but we need govt initiative for much huger gains.
Well done for taking on this subject. Rowan Atkinson is an ill-informed petrol head, I can’t believe the Guardian published his article full of untruth
Rowan is and was an engineer before he was a petrol-head. He has many more qualifications to talk about this topic than these talking heads, you or I.
@@LinuxMaster9 nice try. Atkinson studied engineering at university, and turned to acting in 1979. So his expert engineering knowledge is 44 years out of date. No wonder he likes internal combustion and gets it totally wrong about battery chemistry, technology that has developed massively since he had any serious involvement
Rowen owned both a hybrid and full electric he is saying if everybody is out there are buying new electric cars all at once you will definitely cause more pollution than to service your car now these girls themselves are not seeing the picture Rowan is explaining this to us.those girls are being smug and saying he's anti electric vehicle and he's not he is saying the goverment are forcing people to buy electric cars all at once creating more co2 all at once. When you can fix your old car whether it's electric or gas and keep production lower so we don't over whelm the atmosphere at once.
@@LinuxMaster9 Nope, my degree in the same subject is more recent than his and I disagree with him so only one of us can be right on that basis of engineering knowledge.
Thank you so much for this episode! I listened to Mr. Atkinson’s talk and, to my surprise, thinking how wrong some of the information actually was that he talked about. I’m a big fan of his, but have wondered why he would spread such misinformation.
Maybe he ows Shell Stocks,and he doesn't wana give up his dividends.
Perhaps he was paid for his article.
@@scottbarrett4746 you may be right. Hope not, however.
You wonder why Rowan “fastest lap of star in a reasonably priced car” Atkinson, aka Mr “15 cars” Bean wrote Ann article slagging off EV’s?
@@philiptaylor7902 being from the U.S., I wasn’t aware of his I.C.E. background. What you say makes sense.
Invite Rowan Atkinson. Let him explain where is old info comes from. Possible mostly from the time he was in school. 😁
No clowns to real car panels.
this comment is it, the fact he has a degree and a masters is not enough to claim he knows what he is talking about. It would have possibly been, when he got them, and if he did enough to study this issue. Other than that, he just knows a bit more than the average Joe about electrical issues, does not give him credibility to discuss evs
There you go again - confusing the issue with facts..... Glad you've done this video thanks. Pity the Daily Telegraph readers won't watch it!
When they do watch it they dismiss everything and place a laughing emoji.
haha I parked my car on the drive at my elderly mothers house. Her elderly neighbour came out and we were talking. His first question was "what's the range like?" to which I suggested that he was asking the wrong question and I asked "how far do you need to go?". Anyway, I told him it was about 250 miles practical and takes half an hour to charge.
His response "That's not what I read in the Telegraph."
*shrugs*
Hey guys, love the table discussion format , a great show full of information, thanks !!!.
This was very refreshing, please consider doing more discussions debunking this issues!!
Great work debunking some of the EV issues.
Relative to EV's using 70% more energy, or "carbon debt" during production you have some additional points that should be used besides the ones you stated. The figures you use only concern the benefits after production whereas there are many more to consider during production, For example: 1. Where is the car produced? If it requires to be shipped via a ship there is quite a bit of carbon for the transit to point of purchase. 2. Are most of the parts locally produced or at least nearby as same as finished car if shipped via ship there is carbon for transit. 3. Electricity production: how much is green used for the manufacturing. There are probably more items during production that can alter the percentage. Just like consuming produced from your own garden is more ecological than bringing them in a boat from far away, or even having to drive to a market to purchase, there are more areas contributing to the carbon footprint which can indeed vary significantly by brand, product and where these make their products.
At last someone not blinkered by globalist policy and propoganda. And questioning the rhetoric, unlike 90% of the brainwashed commentors on here!
Yes, but many of the same parameters also apply to ICE vehicles. China is the largest manufacturer of batteries, and more than 50% of their power comes from renewables now. Their transitioning to electrification is happening at a staggering pace.
I wonder if the carbon payback times were calculated using the total emissions of the oil industry for the comparison or just of the vehicles themselves!?
@@FullFact548 No question. The issue with this is the complexity of the accounting as much depends on a multitude of variables. Just highlighting that it is not an easy comparison.
@elmojito Yes, I totally agree, and this is a widespread problem, especially in conversation with EV sceptics, who will often refer to the low CO2 of their diesel car, for example, and ignore all the other processes involved getting their fuel from well to pump. I often find this argument put forward when the worst pollution from diesel isn't CO2 but NOx and PM2.5. The zero emissions at point of use is an important construct in my mind.
One thing for certain is it doesn't pollute the air in dense cities which is a major issue now with some significant health concerns. That alone is a good enough reason to drastically reduce use of ICE in dense areas.
A guy called Colin Walker exgimated that after recycling only 30g of lithium and other materials are actually consumed.
This needs to be a weekly thing.
I find the aspect of changing and rticle in ajor spects AFTER THE FACT absolutely unethical... did not know that, so thanks for pointing that out
Already BYD and Catl have moved to LFP and even Tesla are using LFP due to no nickle no cobalt.
And real soon we will see Sodium in cars.
Most of people’s wrong claims have aged already.
Thanks for dissecting these claims
I think the real question is how much of the original article was edited before print, not written by Rowen Atkinson but adjusted to be skewed toward Pro oil views. But you where right to fact check and put the correct info out there . 👍
I don't think the Guardian skewed the article towards Pro oil views.
I have so many conversations with intelligent good natured folks who regurgitate incorrect facts about how bad EVs are. I’m all for balanced open minded conversations, so I listen carefully and try to correct their mistakes without upsetting them. As with everything, once someone has formed an opinion it’s hard to change it. The oddest thing is how defensive people are, there’s often a feeling they are being accused simply for owning a petrol or diesel car, which is crazy. I own one myself and plan to use it sensibly till it’s time to replace, after that I’ll go electric.
I get the same from EV owners. They get very defensive and regurgitate talking points. "There are charging points all over the place..." yet there is only 1 in my entire city and it is at a Volvo dealership of all places. "I charge it at home....easy" I live in an apartment complex....no charger there and I can not just plug it into the wall. It goes on and on. I will continue to drive my Prius until it makes practical sense to drive an EV.
@@LinuxMaster9 It's true. While I am for EV's, There are certainly 'Koolaid-drinkers' on both sides - I'm probably guilty of being one at times. I leased a Leaf 2yrs ago and I enjoyed the car and electric driving experience - enough to still want to buy one in the future when I can afford to. But I'm lucky enough to have a driveway. Charging infrastructure back then was rubbish and I hated using public chargers. I feel like its improving (but too slowly) So I didn't then, and still don't really recommend getting one to anyone who can't charge at home, not yet anyway.
Fact check, there are nissan leafs that are 10 years old or so with batteries sitting at 30 to 40% which is not really ok.
Thanks for the great content! Fact checking you guys on something you said regarding Green electricity tariffs. There still seems to be some misunderstanding out there, which I feel you added to (16m30s) regarding the electricity a household uses if they are on a green tariff. Being on a green tariff does not mean you are using 100% green electricity. Usage is whatever the mix is for the national grid, regardless of what tariff you are on. Hence for a personal or household offset calculation, we still need to factor in usage times so that usage is when CO2 from the grid mix is at its lowest. Yes the electricity you used is backed up by your supplier feeding in an equivalent amount of 100% green electricity to the grid, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't mean you can use all your consumption as a household as a carbon offset calculation. The NG ESO app is a good source of real-time and other data on the mix of grid electricity.
Well said ladies. Rowan won’t have done any research on this other than superficially so I feel a little sorry for him. Of course the anti-EV Daily Mail/Express/Telegraph brigade have jumped on this with the usual press ‘told you so’ but anyone with half a brain will find out the facts themselves. EV’s aren’t a Nirvana but long-term benefits are huge.
Define "huge"? If we keep trading in our ICE Golf for ever heavier ID4 or worse using substantial amounts of non-green or non-nuclear electricity, the gain will be minimal at best. That's without the fact we all have more vehicles driving more miles and order more stuff online that needs to be delivered to us.. So it all depends.
@@718YellowSubmarine I beg to differ, if we all drove EV's just imagine what walking round a city would be like.
@@jasonmugridge I'd imagine constantly watching my surroundings for oncoming traffic since you generally cant hear EVs.
@@LinuxMaster9we can create noise in cars
@@LinuxMaster9 Not really true. I was walking along my street this afternoon with ear buds in and could hear a Tesla Model 3 drive past me over the podcast I was listening to. They still create plenty of road noise. In carparks they generally make an audible "hum" at low speed when there is very little noise from the tyres.
Who was the Guardian editor for the piece & have they been torn a new one for ducking up also 🤷♀️
Can you comment on the latest BBC panorama programme about the country being ready for EVs or not? I watched it & it was so biased against them, to the point where the presenter was seen mostly driving through the most remote parts of the country in VW electric camper van, totally unrepresentative of most drivers journeys, which are typically up to 30 miles a day at most. Not once did they mention how good the Tesla supercharger network is, or the introduction of LFP batteries that can be charged to 100% consistently. Would like to hear your take on this.
Great video and well explained. I was really disappointed by the article as I'm also a big Rowan fan. Sadly there's so much misinformation from the big oil and gas companies and legacy automakers, that it's unsurprising people have these views. Thanks for fighting back with science and evidence! :)
Most car parks in the UK should never have been built in the first place. Pulling them down for a rebuild seems like a no-brainer. Cover them with solar panels too.
KIDS MINING IN THE CONGO FOR COBALT FOR THE BATTERIES - AND OFTEN DYING
6 months later it’s all coming true…. my compliments Mr. Atkinson!
and the range for driving of these leaf batteries was on average ?? i wouldnt call a ICE car battery with a third of a charge fit for purpose, would it start a car ?
Volvo talked about their own ev carbon use and not the ev market. They als talked anoit this in 2009, or at least that's when it was shown in the daily mail
Brilliant work 👏 👍 👌 just got my MG4 last week getting use to it 👍
My traction battery on my lexus hybrid failed after 13 years and a year out of warranty, it cost a lot to replace it of course, im still not convinced with EV car batteries especially when buying out of warranty.
That is because people are not aware of how that battery has been charged. If charged ‘gently’ to only 80% and not often used to below 20%, it will likely be good. If constantly charged on high power (DC) chargers to close to 100% every day and used to a very low charge level before recharging, it will not last as long.
The charging/discharging history is recorded in the depths of the car history records. Leased cars, returned to the leasing company after the contract period are more likely to have had their battery stressed as described above.
Engine failed on my 9 year old diesel golf, had to write the car off….whats the difference
There are numerous phone apps that can check the traction battery's health via a Bluetooth dongle plugged into the OBDII port, so it is possible to assess before buying.
A hybrid's battery experiences constant rapid cycling of it's relatively small capacity which reduces it's life.
On the subject of 10 year old batteries, you say they are perfectly good, but EV batteries still degrade at an average rate of 2.3% a year even with the complex management systems. So an EV battery may only be 75% effective after 10 years. Current figures suggest that a EV battery life expectancy may even be 15 to 20 years but the range will be significantly reduced.
That's fine but 75% effective is very different to 0% effective which is what "a lifespan of 10 years" implies.
Where do you get the 2.3% battery degradation from?
@@nigelrowe2204 quote "EV batteries degrade at an average of 2.3% per year, according to a study of 6,300 EVs by Geotab."
ICE car batteries only last 3-5 years in my experience, and then don't do anything else as far as I know. So ten years for an EV battery before it goes on to however many years in other work seems great.
Plenty of 20 Year old Toyota's still running........My 92 Dodge colt was 21 years old when I traded it...And got $2000 for it on trade............Paul
@@paulholterhaus7084 FC id commenting on batteries, not vehicles. Lead acid batteries are very recyclable, mind. 95% plus is likely (let’s forget the extra water people fill into the cells, if possible, and just consider the water in normal modern sealed lead acid batteries.
BUT, those lead acid batteries could (and are) being changed to Lithium ion batteries. Some (not car manufacturers yet) have added capacitors to aid starting power (so that a smaller lead acid battery can be employed) and Tesla have likely already changed to Lithium ion for the low voltage battery for all their new vehicles.
edit: Oops, meant small Lithium battery plus capacitors, not ‘lead acid’. Lithium ion cells do not discharge at sufficient rate for starter motors
Actually, EVs have more problems with their 12v battery than with their high-powered battery. In fact, the AA says it's one of the commonest problems encountered for EV breakdowns.
Not sure where you get your info from, I had my last car over 10 years and still on the original battery
@neiltaylor513 You are lucky, I've had to buy at least 4 new batteries in different cars over the years ☹️
Great video, do the green payback figures take into account coal electricity used to refine oil and shipping oil/petrol?
Dear ladies, I enjoyed your comments as a reaction of all the negative media news about EV's. Yeas it is AJAX (the Arena) which uses Nissan Leaf batteries as a power back-up. And yes I already owe a Tesla model S P85 since 2/2014 (10 years already) , I do have my own solar panels eversince and added an extra 4 kWh peak to it in 2022. I also have free supercharging at Tesla (for life) , driving an EV is really a cheap adventure. My car's consumption is 16,5 kWh / 100 km's and I only use my car when there is no snow/salt on the road.
It is all about who is sponsoring who to bring out negative news about EV's. As said I enjoyed your expertise, please go on with it ! Thanks
Shes going to pay for these batteries to be recycled? Nobody else can afford to.
I think that there is too much wrong information on the internet with the aim of dissuading people from ev, and we know who supports them. Especially for batteries. Batteries are so valuable at the moment that a battery with 60-70% capacity of 50kw is sold for 5000 euros here in Croatia and you can find a buyer right away. The second life battery is a very popular commodity currently on the market that even the big car companies have joined it. So if, for example, the EV was damaged in a collision and the battery was not damaged, do not give up on it, because you can get a substantial amount for the battery..
Mate Rimac is my hero 😊
Great job! Could you share your sources so we can reuse them? In particuler the 13500 miles for a tesla model 3 to pay back its added CO2 manufacturing costs. Thanks!
often old batteries are only a few cells are degraded and will be a big industry repairing batteries- Cleverly motors have done some taxis with high mileage
Appreciate the effort that went into those points you raised, but I think the main point of the Guardian article was comparing a new EV with an existing (2nd-hand) ICE car. Important to bear that in mind and compare apples-to-apples.
that's comparing a brand new apple to a used apple though. pointless.
@@dylanadams1455 Not if you think a new EV is "greener" than an older second hand car. A second hand car doesn't add anything new to the current pool of emissions, while a new EV does (tailpipe included or not). That's the point.
Totally agree with you, and if the article had stuck to those facts, it would be fine. The problem is the misinformation.
I also don't think many people are looking to buy a brand new EV over a used ICE purely because of the desire to go green. Used cars are cheaper than new, obviously, but that's especially true of new EVs. I feel like few people are thinking "shall I spend 15k on a used Qashai or 50k on a Model Y".
@@shia_labeouf Agreed, not many people are planning to buy a new EV to go green for the sake of it. It's just the rhetoric that an EV is better for the environment in every way that needs explaining to say the least. As far as "misinformation" goes, well this is subjective if this was deliberate lies in my personal view. The unfortunate thing with life-cycle emissions analysis for example is the base assumptions define the result completely. Some of the debunkers for that Volvo analysis basically used a different set of assumptions, which in my view is not any better/worse. Just different. The correction around rare-earth metals in batteries was needed for sure, they are not used in batteries however they are critical in the electric motors. This fact is not mentioned in the above video, why? Rowan's excellent point of consumer culture being the biggest problem was not discussed here in this video either, why?
@@ashkreator W.H.A.T. ??? 🤣🤣🤣
You had me at "all of them with perfectly good batteries it working order". It was so pathetically stupid statement (no wonder, considering the quality of "research" that was done here) that it was no point to watch the video any further.
We should all be driving Citroen Olis...
Best to keep your Citroen 2CV until the Oli goes into production....
OMG as an engineer I would agree with Rowan completely, denying physics is a fools game. Beside Rowan also own an EV or two beside many petrol cars, his views are quite balanced.
The rare earths are used in the motor drive and the extensive amount of electronics, and maybe some is in the battery chemistry too, the precise chemistry details are not going to be public.
As for post life as battery backup for the grid, thats all well and good, but storing energy in chemistry form is 1000s times cheaper than electrical energy will ever be and that be physics.
Storing energy in nuclear form ie mining uranium as late as possible is millions of times cheaper than even chemical energy storage. Trying to store more than 1% of electrical grid energy per day is a fools errand too.
As for construction of course EVs have a much higher embedded energy cost, it's as if the odometer has 50 to 200 thousand miles on the odometer at the point of sale. Ofcourse the post manufacture has a much higher carbon slope for gas than electric. Now some of the fancy expensive EVs use Aluminium instead of steel, the embedded energy of Al vs Fe is 6 times so those high end cars with Al chassis will never pay back. The best EVs are going to be compact and or taxi shared use cars which would payback very quickly. The very high end electric cars are vanity pieces that will smother the carbon savings of smaller EVs that use the least amount embeddedenergy or rare metals. Beside Li ion batteries could well be replaced by the very similar Sodium ion cells which can even be made on the same lines, much cheaper to make (in the future with scaling), Na is 1000x more common than Li, but the range is a bit less and much lower fire risk. CATL.
The issue with parking lots car park has more to do with imagined fire hazard, an EV fire is orders more difficult to put out than the ICE fires, and there have been some spectacular ship fires that were loaded up with EVs and Ice cars. And the BYD car fires in China are ubiqitous on UA-cam, I refer to those as Burn Yourself to Death cars, would never take that brand.
However it does seem as if the fossil fuel industry is backing a hugely massive campaign to push anti EV talking points, and repeating the same point endlessly out of context, it is those videos the hosts should be taking issue with. Most of those videos are coming from petrol heads.
Fact check: let’s just Google the answer. Facts! 😂
That's just it, I thought I was the only one watching this constant googled garbage. Its amazing how they think they are experts on everything green, the truth is nothing is green ev or ice are all damaging the planet and our constant greed for more will only increase! Until we run out of everything. Who thinks you can make anything without impacting the planet? I guess you can build everything with magic electrons though😂😂.
My Mitsubishi minicab miev EV Kei van is 13 year old and still going fine.
Those 10 year old Nisan Leafs may have working batteries, but with significant degradation. The first generation Nissan Leafs suffered from faulty battery chemistry. The second and third generation Leafs, each have greater capacity batteries that do not suffer with the same chemistry problem.
Yes, but along came ‘leaf-gate’ (or whatever it was called). Nissan reduced the battery charging levels, particularly when the battery was getting too hot, in order to get over the lack of an active battery cooling system. Everyone has incorporated active battery temperature control for the traction battery now? Or is Nissan still selling Leafs without it?
@@oliver90owner As far as I know the Nissan Leaf still does not have active thermal battery management. It's just passive air flowing over the battery as the car moves. The same is true for its development stable partner the Renault Zoe. The newer Nissan Ariya does have active thermal battery management. Active thermal battery management seems to be the way to go. The problem with the Leaf was two fold. The first generation had defective battery chemistry and consecutive fast charging caused overheating without the active thermal battery management. That really only manifested itself on a long journey with multiple fast charging due to limited range. Not so much an issue with the latest Leaf that can do 200 miles at 70mph, as opposed to the 70 miles of the first generation.
Degradation just means less mileage not kaputt. If someone only needs to commute 30 miles a Nissan Leaf that still manages 50 miles is perfectly fine.
@@grahamcook9289 Agreed. If the Leaf was only charged gently on an AC charger and used for short commuter miles, the battery would likely have fared a lot better. Unfortunately any longer journeys needed a fast charge (or two) and the battery temperature was allowed to go too high.
I well remember batteries, from crashed cars, were favoured from Nordic areas, rather than a hot climate - when they were bought either as a replacement or stripped and re-configured for home battery storage.
Great chat, I would have expected better from Rowan. But I still love him!
You want Mr. Atkinson to be better than right. How does that work? He may have been 6 months early but that doesn’t make him incorrect. EV’s are not going to save the world and they are not the future of transport outside cities. The market has collapsed. It’s done a ‘Luton’ as the saying goes.
That made an exciting change, I enjoyed the conversation.
Dear Mr Bean, Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned....or to put it another way...your now pulped!
Yeah, try recycling used diesel and petrol exhaust.
renault zoe battery is a good battery example- very low degradation.and they are 10 years old
actually, not a good example. The Zoe and Leaf both run air cooled batteries, so the degradation is actually significantly greater than with liquid-cooled batteries, which are found on literally everything else.
As Robert says on Fully Charged show him a gallon of recycled diesel or petrol. The Tesla CTO, former, who started Redwood Materials is JB Straubel who is back on the board of Tesla but isn't the CTO anymore. Don't forget even driving on the dirtiest coal grid is still cleaner than Petrol/Diesel vehicles as those vehicles get worse as their life goes on whereas EV's get cleaner. A Model 3 owner in Guelph Ontario drives his car with original battery, brakes and motors and has over 600,000km on it and his battery SoH is 75% and he still gets about 350km range which is still fine.
I'm sure on your tiny little island, 350km range is fine, but out here in the wide expanse of Canada, it's shyt.
@@coolworx All about charging infrastructure. As both Kyle(Out of spec) & Tom(State of Charge) have stated on their weekly podcast with Martyn & Dom. Why haul a huge battery around, the future won't be 500kWh batteries that weigh as much as 2 Hummers it will be small batteries with fast charging capabilities and ubiquitous charging infrastructure as common as service stations are. There will be a sweet spot for battery size and possibly 800v architecture similar to the eGMP cars able to charge quickly to get on the move.
You don't get it... there's places where there's absolutely nothing for 100 of k's except bush and bears. Plus it's -30C. It's a pipe dream.
@@coolworx Well there must be service stations now. It's not a pipe dream at all. I can imagine 100yrs ago your ancestors would be saying the same of early fossil cars when they were transitioning from horse and carriage. Never mind the fact that there as EV's 100yrs ago as well. Baker Electric, we could all be driving EV's now if fossil fuels weren't found. This transition is only 10yrs in, remember the fossil fuels won't last forever and we need them for FAR more than burning in an inefficient engine.
@@TassieEV Just the amount of minerals needed to make batteries that only last 10 years, will destroy whats left of the environment. You should check out Simon Michaux.
So.......if I do 5 - 6 times the average mileage as a business driver.......will my battery be well past its best and underperforming after 3 or 4 years??
I think this all steams from being an early adopter, in the short space of time EVs have been on the market they have improved massively. The downside is that early experience is likely to negatively skew your opinion. Which is probably where Rowan's beef generally comes from. But lets face it 2030 is coming and with more and more EV choice coming onto the market in the UK, it will be a viable option for many.
It’s comedy gold going back to read his column, then reading all the Guardian corrections underneath it, then reading the Guardian asking for £2 per month 🤣 yeah, no thanks 🥴
To be fair the guardian even ran their own article fact checking and disputing Rowan's article quite early on. I guess this is one of those issues about whether 'comment pieces' should be fact checked or even published at all
Love the dining table😍
PS I think VW & Polestar may of done similar studies
But did you check all 75 Leaf's personally and see how much the batteries have deteriorated? Batteries usefuless does probably deplete a lot by 10 years which i assumed is what Rowan meant.
Rowan Atkinson had a Baldrick moment...
Thank you for making this video
Rare earth metals are not a category in the periodic table. And metals such as Lithium, Cobalt, Indium, Tantalum, Niobium and others are considered to be rare metals .. at least by an article from MIT on the future of strategic natural resources I read recently and other geological articles it referenced. and those metals are used in electric car batters or in the cars computer system, or other areas of the car.. some of the metals are used in cars gasoline powered cars as well.
Saying that the newer generation of EV batteries could be expected to last 15 to 20 years is probably accurate. However most EV car manufacturers only warranty them either 8 or 10 years. Lifetime is going to depend on how you drive, where you drive, how many times you charge and the method of charging and other factors. The batteries do lose some of their capacity as they go so while a 15 year old car may have a battery that still works it may have lost a significant portion of its its charge capacity.
One issue of concern is alot of manufacturers are not transferring battery warranty, so the used market for EVs is risky.
The 13.500 miles for the tesla x before the carbon payback as they termed it.. That is basing it on ideal conditions where the electricity is being produced by the cleanest source which is certainly not the average.
Also to mention the EPA in a study from just a few months ago testing efficiency, internal combustion cars were getting 4% better fuel efficiency than the manufacturers rated them at at electric vehicles tested had a 12.5% lower range than mfgs claimed.
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. not as gloomy a picture as Mr Atkinson paints it and not as rosy.. at least not yet.. as presented here.
A couple of points. 1. The term "rare earth" is misleading as these metals' availability is rare in comparison to abundant metals like iron, aluminium, zinc, and copper.
2. No product carries a warranty for the whole of its expected lifetime, which is the same for EV batteries. Most companies give 8 year warranties or 100k miles
3. Yes, different conditions can affect a vehicle battery's longevity and emissions, but that applies to all vehicles, including ICE
4. Commonly, comparisons between the emissions of an ICE vehicle and an EV the total emissions of fuel production are ignored. I don't know if that was the case in the research you mentioned.
5. Battery manufacturers have many years of experience, and I would suggest that battery lifespans are what is claimed. In fact, the lifespan of batteries was underestimated initially and has been found to last a lot longer than first thought.
Lastly, even at 50% of the original capacity, an EV battery has other uses, and modern recycling methods are retrieving up to 95% of the materials used during manufacturing.
Batteries may last longer than 10 years, but how much of their capacity do they retain after 10 years of charge/discharge cycles? Maybe half? So a 100 mile range of a new Leaf is maybe 50 miles after 10 years.
I can't imagine my Nissan Leaf Gen 2 would be heavier than an average Range Rover.
PetrolRange rover weight 5,240 lbs,petrol VW up weight 2,200lbs. So we could drastically reduce vehicle co2 production if large suvs banned
The BMW factory that built the i3 reportedly generates more electricity than it uses, selling the surplus to a nearby VW plant. The electricity is generated by some very large wind turbines and arrays of solar PV panels.
As more car manufacturers follow suit and generate green electricity on-site, the weaker the argument about energy used in manufacturing becomes. If all the energy used in manufacturing is renewable then the mileage required to offset the environmental cost of manufacturing is very small.
I live off grid relying totally on a 3kw solar system, how do I charge an EV? Suppose I could go shopping once a month or use a petrol generator to charge it😂
Electrifying, would you consider doing a panel style video like this on Toyotas new Hydeogen Combustion engines? How they stack up agsinst electric and such like?
Besides that, awesome video as always. 😀
probably preaching to the converted, but fwiw: BEV's are >80% normally... Hydrogen fuel cells are documented as 3x less efficient than battery electric, just because of losses in creating the hydrogen, storing it (under pressure) and then using it. The Fuel cells themselves are pretty good, efficiency-wise. hydrogen combustion engines start at being 3x less efficient, because of the losses above, and then you add in 20% efficiency of a n ICE... (3x4) so now you are in the realm of 12x less efficiency... so for each kwh you put into a BEV, to power a hydrogen combustion vehicle, you need about 12 kwh.... Does not sound promising.
Toyota has recently announced plans for 10 new EVs by 2026, so it looks as if it's changing direction. It continues to push hybrids though..
Actually, Peter, HFCs are only around 50% efficient as they actually generate a lot of heat, and the losses you speak of reduce that to around 37%. BEVs, as you say, are far more efficient than any of the alternatives
Just a note on the 'carbon payback' calculations - a lot of the graphs/calculations that are shown/quoted do not take into account the carbon emissions for actually getting the petrol/diesel to the pumps in the first place - so the payback for EV's is most probably quicker than stated (although I don't know if they did or didn't for the figures that you're quoting here). After digging around, I did eventually find some information on a study that was conducted to work this out - the figures they quoted were that for the carbon emissions for just burning the fuel in your car (which is all that's normally taken into account), you should add approx 30% on top to account for everything involved in the production and delivery of the fuel to the petrol station forecourts.
On carbon payback driving an ev vs a petrol or diesel - the calculations need to take into account not only the carbon emissions of petrol and diesel cars while driving them, but also the carbon emissions involved in providing each litre to the tank. So, there is electricity to pump from the underground storage at the fuel station, no doubt power to pump from the tanker to the storage tank, then the emissions of the tanker delivering to the fuel station, the power to fill it at the refinery or storage facility, the refining process itself, the delivery of crude oil and associated chemicals to the refinery (including cobalt...), and of course the enormous energy required to get the crude from the underground deposits. Was all of that taken onto account?
Rare earth elements are not rare.
Another point of Atkinson's article is of frightfully bad faith: that people now tend to sell their cars after 3 years, leading to an awful waste of resources. But ignored is the fact that those cars may change owner, but are definitely not scrapped, and will probably last double the time an ICE car would, just in the hands of several successive owners.
Great conversation
Great video ladies
Great video!
15 years should not be the expected lifespan of a vehicle that cost that amount of co2 to produce. The issue in this world is pre mature obsolescence and in general a throw away attitude towards all goods produced. It is always going to be more environmentally friendly to keep the thing you have than replace with new. The majority of new cars are lease deals which after three years can be replaced with a brand new car. It's a green fallacy
I think Captain Black Adder has had to much dandruff in his coffee , and had turned into ?
Baldrick 😂😂👍👍
A lot of retired peeps buy electric cars, since they can afford them, but they do little mileage. Need to get electric cars into hands of high mileage peeps
Buy a Hyundai Ioniq 5 , it does 320-350 miles on a charge. We have one, it’s fantastic
Strange that pretty much all of the comments are supportive of your video ladies. Hmmmm!
No it isnt strange. They push back on anti EV nonsense and people appreciate that.
Rowan made some very good points in his article the 10-year battery life might have been a typo! but Eventually all batteries will have to be recycled :
There seem to be two camps developing a bit like Ameircan politics, you are either in the EV camp or you are not.
With Hydro-metallurgical processes the most common method used for recycling batteries they put the battery through a grinder that breaks the battery up into little pieces then it's smelted into a toxic sludge which then is treated with chemicals and solvents, it's a filthy carbon-intensive process, which adds considerably to the carbon footprint of an EV battery.
This recycling is never taken into account when calculating the CF of an EV battery, because batteries can be recycled after all!
To be fair to the Grauniad they have now published their own fact-check of the article which thoroughly debunks it. Doesn't explain why they didn't check it first of course.
For some reason I was expecting an appearance by Tom Ford, dressed up as Baldrick (Possibly because I am a stupid man [there may e a redundant word in that]). However, I'm plased that didn't happen, as you did an excellent job at taking down an illinformed article.
The only thing I actually took away from the article is that Mr Bean is a Tory right winger who more than likely has a vested interest in hydrogen/e-fuel companies and hence why he was trying to push them.
He's not a Tory right winger. There's a speech floating around UA-cam in defense of free speech.
One interesting way to debunk this was Martin veicha from tesla ir. Take the weight of your ev, then take the weight of your gas guzzler&all the fuel it'll burn over its lifetime. Here in the U.S. an average car is just over 4,040# and a sedan like the model 3 gets maybe 25mpg lifetime.
Supposedly we can get up to 17 years and over 200,000 miles out of it? I'd shudder to see the maintenance bill if you kept it that long myself. Anyway 200,000 miles at 25mpg=8,000 ish gallons of gas burned at 6# per gallon ad's up to an additional 48,000# of fuel alone consumed.
Fuel which has to be extracted causing emissions and pollution, plus using up water and other chemicals at just the drill rig site.
Those drill rigs aren't used for anything else either, so what about the emissions to make them? Transport them into place, run them etc?
Then it must be transported most often by a big ole oil tanker burning dirty dangerous bunker fuel, stored in tanks dockside.
Transported again to the refinery, stored again. Processed into useable petroleum products using more energy and water, plus creating more pollution at every step of the way.
Then pumped through a pipeline using massive electric motors, pumped into trucks or trains. Transported again using even more energy&creating some more particulate matter pollution, stored in tanks that leak into local water sources.
Before finally being pumped into a gassers tank using more electrical energy. Where it is burned from a well-wheels efficiency of less than 25%
Let's ignore all the oil spills to just for making those darn evs look more evil. 😁
That also doesn't count exh parts like catalytic converters being replaced that burn out or clog(I ran a service shop this happens a LOT on modern cars stuck in stop n go traffic or driven in short cycles)those cats which use platinum metals in them&are stolen because of that.
It doesn't inc air filters evs don't have which get replaced every 10-15,000 miles in ice and are dumped by the hundreds of millions into landfills.
It doesn't inc the oil changes done every 5,000 mile or so at 5 quarts apiece plus the oil filter made of steel being dumped in a landfill more often than not.
It doesn't inc any additional fluid flushes or filters for the trans or even all the services ice vehicle's require that most evs do NOT.
So with the grid getting more sustainable and efficient every year now. How can any person capable of clear logical thought believe an ev could be worse sustainability wise or for the environment itself is beyond me.
And I am not someone whose in the general ev targeted male market either.
Rather I'd like to see the cards all laid out and the spades clearly called spades. 😎👍🏻
That Mr Bean piece irritated me at the time. I read the original and didn't know it had been updated 5 times withing a couple of weeks.
The Guardian did do a fact check piece a couple of weeks later, but that's almost pointless.
The people who run with this are generally anti-EV, loved the piece being in the 'lefty, PC' Guardian and aren't interested in any fact checks or corrections.
It’s like Charlie’s EV Angels
Have you fact checked Rowans claims regarding Porche etc manufacturing a new fuel that can be used in regular engines that has zero emissions or hydrogen fuels?
some of the new batteries have better chemistry- LFP have twice the number of cycles and also have no of the materials that are mined in DRC. Good point about second life- also what are the costs of transporting petrol to petrol station from the wells- petrol vehicles are only about 30% efficient- EV are way more efficient. tesla will recycle and recover the materials
Fun fact: rare earth metals aren't particularly rare, either.
You can’t consider where your energy comes from with a fossil car?
As for comparing production, it makes a huge difference where a car is made. A Romanian Dacia Duster will have a different carbon footprint compared to a VW T-Roc made in Wolfsburg and again will have a different carbon footprint to a Tesla M3 built at the Gigafactory which is powered by solar and wind. I'd argue without having researched that the Tesla Model 3 has the lowest carbon footprint even before it has driven a mile.
Also the carbon footprint comparisons don't take into account where and how the oil has been sourced, they only look at the CO2 which comes out at the tailpipe, ignoring that UK refineries alone take about 5TWh of electricity / year and a typical oil platform burns 25m3 of unrefined diesel / day ...
Also I doubt these studies include oil filters, fuel filters, engine oil and much higher wear on brake pads etc.
Don’t think this article was balanced. Maybe referring to Rowan Atkinson as Mr Bean wrecked the whole shout.
are they going to ban range rovers from car parks
Hehe, Rowan Atkinson's Mk7 Jaguar, he races at Goodwood weighs 1,696 kg. 😂