Is Calvinism True?
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- Опубліковано 7 січ 2025
- Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we begin a discussion on Calvinism and the Doctrines of Grace. Jeff and Zach talk about the sovereignty of God and grace. Don't miss it! Tell someone!
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I am a Lutheran. Not a Calvinist. All the non-calvinists in the comments here need to stop saying things like, “Apologia is teaching a false gospel, because Calvinism.” Stop it! They are not. We all agree we are justified by faith in Christ ALONE. I love my brothers and sisters at Apologia. Charging them with teaching a false gospel is slanderous and it is a lie. Stop it.
Thanks for saying this so clearly. I have been listening to so many non calvinists that my head is hurting.
As a fellow Lutheran I couldn't agree more
Amen
They teach self defence and believe in the death penalty.... That's DEFINITELY a false gospel; and a dangerous one at that!
@laurenferris2223 so when Jesus affirmed the death penalty in Mt 15, and tells his disciples to get swords in order to defend themselves in Lk 22, he was also teaching a false gospel?
While I am not a calvinist I do enjoy listening to these talks from brothers who are.
Same, brother. I am zealously against the Calvinist view but I love these brothers. Would love to meet them.
Ive fallen in love, with the doctrines of grace. They are actually alot more beautiful than people realize. They are consistent, purposeful, and accurate. God is Good.
You realize that in one short comment you said both that you love the doctrines of grace and that God is good? That’s an oxymoron. The God of Calvinism isn’t good. He made all the men of the Earth, but before they had done anything good or bad, he chose to predestine most of them to eternal death. And there’s nothing they can do about it. Even the atheists look at that and have a better response than you, they at least just walk away. You say that you love that? What does that say about you?
@@TheRomans9Guywho are you o man to answer back to God? You ought to learn something from your username. God can do whatever He wants. Whatever God does is good no matter what it is because He is God! Thats what it means to be God. By what standard do you judge God?
@@CameronMast Hey Cameron, so, yes, the reason why Rom 9 is in my handle is because of the length of study I’ve done with it so you’re right to ask about it. And from your quoting of verse 20 and your subsequent points it seems clear you’ve come to a bad understanding of this chapter.
What this chapter is certainly **not** teaching is that God can do things that we would call evil but because he’s doing them they are good. That is a very unfortunate and ignorant conclusion so many have come through some very bad reading comprehension and even worse philosophy. (Have you ever heard the retelling of the time a woman said to Spurgeon she couldn’t believe God would choose not to save some and his response was that he had a hard time believing God could save any? Terrible.)
In chapter 9 Paul is correcting the doctrine of election that the Jews had held for centuries by using deep sarcasm. He is not establishing a new doctrine of election. And like it is in all cases with sarcasm, if you don’t get it, the author’s meaning goes way over your head. Such has been the case with Augustine, Calvin, Luther, and so many others.
Imagine if toward the end of Trump’s presidency Joe Biden had had blue hats made up that said Make America Great Again. The inference would obviously be, make it great by voting out Trump and voting in me! But because Biden would have been using Trump’s own slogan against him the effect would have been dramatic, unforgettable, and ultimately far more effective.
That’s what’s happening here with **ALL** of Romans 9. And Calvin missed all of it. I could give you every reference, and there’s tons of them and you can read all of them on my website in my UA-cam profile page, but just on the verse 20 that you cited, Paul is saying to the Jews ‘who are you to answer back to God’ because his message to them was ‘everyone is loved and chosen by God, not just the Jews but the Gentiles also’ and the Jews hated this because they thought they alone were chosen by God. For centuries they had preached that God only loved them and when anyone objected that was evil and unfair of God to obviously hate the Gentiles that he created, they responded to those objectors ‘who are you to talk back to God!!’ So now when Paul shows that the Gentiles ARE loved by God and the Jews are the ones objecting, Paul is saying Make America Great Again!…who are you to talk back to God??
@@TheRomans9Guy "even the atheists look at that and have a better response than you".... hm.
I don't think you're the type of guy who wants to mess around over here. No need really to dispute a man who's crawling on all fours still.
@@DjSostre7 you can tell yourself that if you want!
I'm not a calvinist but I take great inspiration and am blessed by brothers who are ❤
TIMESTAMPS (take two)
3:00 intro starts after the ads
7:30 Cultish's new thing & a very special caller they had (don't skip this part it's funny)
13:30 intro to the topic: the doctrines of grace
16:28 Jeff shares his testimony
22:40 conversation shifts to Church history
26:00 tiny mention of how Calvin didn't invent Calvinism, it's just shorthand
27:00 the 5 points were a response to the Arminian guy (discussion)
31:04 the starting point is God
38:17 ish the sovereign hand of God - the ultimate good was Jesus' murder
45:10 Pharoah's hardened heart
47:50 who is the pot to critique the potter? (God's love & grace)
54:21 read John 6 & 10
On the topic pf thos video "Is Calvanism true? " neither this vidoe, not the entirity of human history has anyone ever presented any demonstrable evidence for any of the thousands of gods claimed by humans
@@LAndrewNextwhere is your "proof" that one true God doesn't exist?
@@LAndrewNextthe resurrection of Christ was seen by over 500 people then written about by eye witnesses within 100 years of Christ life. These texts were circulated and copied and preserved with painstaking accuracy as attested by the oldest manuscripts we have (read about codex Sinaiticus) and tens of thousands of second witness texts. This is called history. These early witnesses gave their life in many cases for this testimony with no possibility of personal gain. Yes, it's supernatural, but you might expect that kind of evidence from a supernatural being.
@@SamTipton yet none of these 'witnesses' ever bothered to write anything down themselves.
@@LAndrewNext We don't know that. They could have been not lost, not preserved. We hardly know anything about Judea from a non-Roman perspective from that period outside of the New Testament and Josephus. Can you cite any first century Judean historians?
The passage of God hardening Pharos heart always stood out to me even as a little Christian kid at 8yrs old lol this is such a good example of Gods utter and total sovereignty!!!
Praise God for opening my eyes and my family! What a gift He has given in Jesus & salvation!!
Fantastic show today, guys. Nailed it! Love everything you do so keep it up! The Author writes the story, we as the characters will live out all His plans and purposes. Soli Deo Gloria!
Great discussion. This is an example of how a congregant can feed his pastor’s soul. Preaching, though good and fulfilling, is exhausting. Sitting down with a brother and talking like this can be refreshing for a pastor. I would encourage men especially to invite your pastor to do something like this.
I grew up in a Christian home and heard all my life about free will and what not. I got saved in 2020 when I was 21, and I got saved through reformed teaching, however, I thought calvinism was unbiblical and wrong. But it wasn't until I began to, as Jeff said, compare what I believed with the scriptures, that I came to a conclusion that I did not want God in my natural state, and that my entire will outside of Christ was totally opposed to God and always inclined towards sin and away from God. The doctrines of grace truly paint God in a glorious way, that He would save sinners who in their natural state cannot choose Him.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
@h2s142 What are you trying to say?
The Corinthian church was still being carnal (natural state) after salvation. A lot of people want God in their natural state but don't know how to come to him.
@@livingforjesus8551 if people want God in their natural state then why does scripture say that we are enemies of God? Or haters of God? Or that we do not seek for God? We do not want God in our natural/unregenerate state. Which is exactly why God must bring us to life so that we can believe upon Christ. People may be seeking for a version of God, but not the true God. No one in their unregenerate state wants a God who demands repentance and cross bearing. Only those whose hearts have been quickened to life want God for who He truly is and is willing to do what He demands.
@@spovlock51
Why do unregenrate go to church seeking God, there are countless testimonials where people were going to church not being saved, seeking God, and spend their entire lives in church doing good works, and then realize that they have never really trusted God. You say which is why God must bring us to life, so we can believe in Christ. Silly me, I thought the Bible teaches that after one believes in the gospel, that they are brought to life, and are saved, you are saying that they have to be brought to life in order to believe, that is not Bible. Hiw can one believe, without hearing. After they hear the word and believe, they are sealed with the Hy Spirit of promise, and then that is when the Hkly Spirit brings he regeneration. Titus say we are regenerated by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 10:14
King James Version
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ephesians 1:13
King James Version
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Titus 3:5-7
King James Version
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
It sounds like John is Jeff’s friend and he really cares for him. Very nice !
Great conversation gentleman! Black coffee Christianity… ✝️ ☕️
It was a great way to start my day! 💞
Always love the conversations and the explanations you are very meek and humble in speech makes things a lot more clear and easier to understand even for those outside of the camp of Christianity which at the end of the day I don’t think a lot of unbelievers would ever try to figure out what all the differences in Christianity is so it’s great to have the conversation in a civil way 🙏
Really appreciate this ...and that you too have struggle sessions over the texts.. encouraging.. I WAS Apostolic Charismatic now Reformed.. but still struggle with the "IF" verses
.... There's a great book called "The 12 What Abouts". It's an excellent book...under $10 l think...answers everything perfectly. God Bless...✝️🌷
@@michellecheriekjv4115I have it and it’s a wonderful read! It’s by John Sampson.
This was such an amazing discussion. There is so much to unpack and so much beauty when you accept the sovereignty of god truly. Please keep shinning your light gentlemen!
Answer is MOST definitely ✝️
Yes, please do more of these! I never get tired of hearing these beautiful truths spoken to my heart, too.
I was saved out of the Word of Faith movement. Then drug addiction. Then I became a worship leader at an Assemblies of God drug rehab program. While I was working there, God rocked me and brought me to true saving faith. I thank God for this ministry and leading me to these wonderful truths of scripture!..also..it would be cool if y’all did a certificate when we complete Bahnsen U!
I have learned more from Bahnsen than 3 years in Bible school. A cert would mean more to me than my $$$ degree😂
I was saved in a wof church with a woman pastor after being a heroin addict and then asked to preach after a couple months clean, ended up at Victory Outreach on the worship team (Arminian) and somehow with no reformed influence the Spirit thought it right to teach me some of the tenants of Calvinism while reading my Bible before I ever knew what Calvinism was. I still have great friends who are Arminian, and we will all have some of our theology corrected when we see our Lord face to face, but I am fully convinced in my mind that Reformed theology is correct insofar as soteriology is concerned
For any objection to the sovereignty of God: "Oh man..." Thank you brothers.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
This is the first time surprisingly I have heard Jeff's character Mortimer 😅 that was hilarious
Same. 😂
My name is John and I live and work in Erie PA. One of my co-workers is Jeff's dopelganger. I will try to send a pic.
PLEASE do more of these with all that scripture!
I gotta admit, Mortimer's call was comedy gold.tog Durbin's stock went up a little bit...
18:41 Wait, what? You read the gospel of John and were all about it, but started going to church and started getting outside info about free will?? You didn’t get free will from John? You said you read and re-read it? What in the world is wrong with this picture? There’s no way you actually read John and didn’t get free will from it. Well, unless there’s something really wrong with you.
I think it’s especially important for people to understand both the general and particular love of God, as that really helped me see how the Arminians get something correct about God’s love for all but then mistakenly conclude this conflicts with his special choice for some. These are not really in conflict. (You say this well at min. 54:15).
Nor is it a conflict to say that God desires all to be saved. He does so desire according to our free will choices. The problem is that we have exercised choice against him and so have become enslaved to our self love. God does call all in this state to be saved. While we are unable in ourselves to come, it is not an inability that comes as a result of irresponsible willing against him. It a responsible inability, like one who is blind because they made themselves blind.
God is not then unjust to choose some for sight, some to have a heart of flesh instead of the heart of stone, such as Lydia reception of Paul’s words.
The notion that God is a parent who loves all his children equally is true, but he is also the parent that chooses to save some, while suffering the real rejection of others. This might offend some of our notions of the perfect American parent, who holds only equality to be of value. But if God chooses to suffer for the salvation of some, while choosing to suffer the loss of another’s love so as to make himself fully known as the God of love-both for the sake of human freedom and love, but also his own is freedom and love-is this so objectionable?
God is both good and great in his sovereignty. That is how I have come to see it.
Humans have a free will, but have misused it, and God saves some from their slavish self-destructive love. That is the double-sided coin of human responsibility and divine election.
“It belongs to despotic power to use force; it is a mark of God’s reasonableness that the issue should be ours. God thought it wrong to do men good against their will but right to benefit those with a mind to do it.” - Gregory of Nazianzus Oration 31 part 25. So much for “irresistible grace” or “sovereignty” (meaning divine determinism) being taught by the church fathers.
Thankfully no. Praise God! Thank you, Jesus!
I believe Christians don't believe reformed theology (Calvinism) for two main reasons: 1)They don't know what the whole council of God says on the issues of God's sovereignty, man's total inability (depravity), God's election of who will be his people, the power of the Holy Spirit to raise a spiritually dead person to spiritual life, Christ's finished work of salvation on the cross for his people, and how God preserves the faith of his people. OR 2)For whatever reason they don't want to believe that God has total control of all that comes to pass which includes who will be shown His grace and mercy, and who will receive His justice.
For me it was #1.All it took was for someone to show me that with the proper exegesis of scripture in both the OT and NT reformed theology (Calvinism) is what's clearly taught.And my relationship with God has been stronger and deeper since then.
For His Glory
Why would God permit one more second of animal suffering ?
“ For his glory “
😂
@@jasonnoble7302Jason!!! Odd to find you here, how did you find your way here all the way from Cliffe’s videos?😂 Anyways, what is your problem with things happening for the glory of God?
@@jesustalkspace
Isn’t it self evident to you ? 🤷♂️😂
@@jasonnoble7302 Not at all, all things whether good or bad happen for the glory of God! It’s either that or things happen for no reason and things happening for no reason seem to bother me as I think everything in life has a purpose. Now I ask again, what’s your problem?
@@jesustalkspace
Things happen for God OR things happen for no reason is NOT a true dichotomy
So that assumption of yours fails
And
To say God permits not good things to occur for his Glory is a non sequitur
If I was to ask you why you bought gasoline yesterday instead of today and you said “for my glory” that doesn’t answer the question. It just doesn’t logically follow
How old are you ?
I’m not asking to be rude, it’s just seems like you haven’t had a lot of philosophical instruction
God is an Amazing God and works wonders with you and your Army
I have a slight survivor's guilt, and the toughest part for me is the people who are so close to accepting the Truth and are generally kind to others, but won't get over their pride like I once did. He will not allow the unholy to be in His presence, and His own creation is talking back at Him like disrespectful children who trust the perverted stranger (Satan with his many hydra heads posing as religions and ideologies). I don't know why He let me stay alive in my period of heaviest sinning. I wonder if the new name's we will receive will be telling. Have you guys ever discussed the topic of the new names we will receive?
I would be interested in this topic
On the topic pf thos video "Is Calvanism true? " neither this vidoe, not the entirity of human history has anyone ever presented any demonstrable evidence for any of the thousands of gods claimed by humans
@@LAndrewNextAnd no one has disproved God ether have they?
@Bottleofbleach461 no one can disprove anything doesnt exist. Be it any one of the thousands of gods, aliens, fairies, flying unicorns, santa clause...
@@LAndrewNext
So trust the world, then. What is it to you that people trust the only Living and True God (the ones who actually follow His commandments -- to love God and neighbor)?
Nothing is impossible for God, but he has told us there are things he WONT do.
This is the most confusing start to any video I’ve ever seen. 4:49 before someone talks. It’s a big hodgepodge of unrelated (to my mind) clips. It wasn’t till the guy was talking about his website that I realized those odd unrelated clips most likely are other productions from the same group. I’m not trying to be a pain, just pointing out your start does not make any sense to someone unfamiliar with your show. Also, WHY do you have the Celtic knot in your logo? That, to me, is a pagan symbol that I have thrown out of my life.
The Celtic knot in question, the Triquetra, is a symbol that represents the Trinity.
Acts 17: 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Absolutely All men everywhere!
Leighton Flowers is probably rage watching this right now.
Good for him
Good chance Flowers is a tool of satan.
😂😂😂
50:19 no he doesn’t. He chooses to set his love on all, and the fact that you bring up Israel shows how lightly you’ve been exposed to these concepts and how little you understand them.
Do you have any examples of the teaching of Calvinism from the early church fathers predating Augustine? I only see conditional security being taught by Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Hippolytus, Ignatius, Origen, Tertullian, and Cyprian.
I use to be a hard core Arminian, would assert more because first i reasoned about the issue based on my own reasoning that was heavily influenced from only my past from my limited knowledge and understanding. I was sincere and convinced that Arminianism was true, seriously how could a loving God simply create people only to live a short which and spend eternity in hell...? What changed, honestly seeking God and asking him to show me from scripture what is true. The more i read and sought God to provide answers eventually about 20 years ago started really struggle how can this be... How is it the more i learned it seems that my salvation is really a result of God alone in my life... On the flip side it seems more often those who reject Calvinism/Reformed views have read or understand so little of scripture, or provide and alternative view of what something means that often doesn't fit with the Bible.
Your question... While might say is good, would assert you are asking the wrong question? Why you are looking to what other men believe, we are called to be more like Bereans (Acts 17:11) or 2 Tim 2:15. Other people might help provide insight but ultimately it matters only what God has said, think you'd agree...
So the question is then do we see Calvinism demonstrated in the Bible...? Yes, one of the best arguments for it studying and praying to God... He gave me this thought.... Paul, might argue of any human after Christ to model our lives from is the best example of Calvinism. Think about it here we have a person so bent out of shape and angry to start going out to seek Christians to kill them... Again back to Act, chapter 9... We see Paul get knocked of his high hourse and was converted, not by his choice but God's...?
For me if you study this subject it comes down to and have hinted throughout this post so far is it comes down to God's Sovereignty...? So when we read Eph 1->3 (Chapters) and would encourage you to read that. As you read it keep asking who is doing what to whom... Or a couple of favorite passages Rom 9:15-16 (not sure God could be more clear... i.e. so that it does not depend on man, but God...) and my other favorite passage 1 Cor 4:7... If salvation is anything a person might value... I never had it and only received it...
Could say a lot, really a lot more why i switched from an Arminian view to a reformed view... But the biggest has to be God's grace. In a nutshell (i might be only a nut ☺) Calvinism/Reformed really lines up more with God's grace. In that because of God's grace... God didn't even leave the choice up to me to choose Him, but He chose for me before the foundation of the world (again Eph 1). But Arminianism had oodles of problems, that is if one must come to a place to accept God in order to be saved... Huh? Yep. The Bible is clear. In my natural state before being Born from above (John 3 many don't catch the real meaning of John 3 and being born from above...) But how did a person Blinded by my sin, but satan, also deceived both satan again and my own heart, if that wasn't bad enough state to be in.... But add to this i hated God and would rather go after my pleasure.... I was a slave to my own sin/pleasure, and if that isn't bad enough.... I was dead and unable to even consider making the choice... Would assert all this should be clear and obvious for anyone that has a fair knowledge of scripture, even the most hardened Arminian would agree with the points i'm making, just that they won't accept the conclusion... But if anyone is able to explain from scripture, which i'd assert i've done and not with some biased position other than what God has said... My question would be how would a dead, blinded deeived hater of God ever turn to accept God... Don't think they would... Ah! But does hightlight God's grace all the more? 😎😎😎
@dand4485 We should all look to the early church as an example - the ones who suffered and were martyred for the explosion of faith across a dark empire and a demonic stronghold. I’ve recently found it profoundly misguided to ignore such honorable expressions of faith and the ones closest in proximity to those who walked with Jesus. You know as well as I do that there are MANY verses that counter any notion of Calvinism being true. So rather than lean on our modern day intellect and debate as though we know better, we should be looking back to the first three centuries before Augustine…..and it should be highly alarming that there’s not a trace of Calvinism within the writings of the men who were burned at the stake, fed to lions, and some discipled by John the Apostle himself.
@@humblewatchman1673 So provide them.... Again another baseless "You know there are many verses that counter God's sovereignty..." I don't like using the "C" word but will use it in the to not to have to explain it completely... Then again proper hermeneutics... Would assert you man have verses that appear to go against Calvinism... But won't the just as quickly cause trouble with other passages, if so... Proper hermeneutics would say you have an incorrect understanding....? This is if scripture is 100% truthful anytime you find one passage contradicting another.... One must qualify it... So i'll ask you to provide
Rom 9: 15) For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
But please don't rehash a point that Rom 9 is talking about nations... If so just shows you really are out of touch with the text. Why? Dig into the Greek, one thing it was or is the most exacting and precise language there was... Gotta love the wisdom of God for raising up Alexander th great for developing it. But the point is the pronouns and verbage as written in the Greek doesn't line up with the argument those arguing Rom 9 is talking about or allegorizing those being spoken about are nations... I bet you won't deal with or handle it very well.
Yes. Paul. Lol
@kendraannelliott969 that doesn’t answer the question, since the early church fathers I listed would’ve been using the same teaching as we are today - yet Calvinism is entirely foreign to any of their writings.
55:55 except God draws all men. Go back and re-read John 6 and count how many times Jesus says WE have to do something. Underline it. Circle it. Highlight it.
We can dismantle the doctrines of grace thoroughly just by reading John 6.
I would invite you to read John 10:32 in context. The comment pertains to Jew and Gentile.
@@de629 I think there’s a typo in your reference, you cited John 10:32? 10:32 wouldn’t have any impact on my statement above about God drawing all men. The passage in John 10 leading up to verse 32 is very much part of my argument. What we call “salvation”, as if it is one singular step, is actually closer to a three step process. God forgives, justifies and draws all men and gives all men the ability and responsibility to surrender to him and his mercy, some men do surrender and have faith and some don’t, and to those that do, God grants eternal life through Jesus. John 10 is mostly concerned with steps 2 and 3 of the salvation process. Our listening to and surrendering to God and Jesus (or not surrendering, as in the case of the Jews) and Jesus’ granting of eternal life.
But verse 32 isn’t very controversial in any of this.
@@TheRomans9Guy
Yes, I meant 12:32
@@de629 I think there’s a disconnect here. John 12:32 is proof of my argument and strongly against the Calvinist teaching. Have you misunderstood me to be a Calvinist in some way? Yeah, I love John 12:32.
@@TheRomans9Guy
Yes, in John 6 we do something, "looks on the son and believes in him" In v.36 Jesus explains to the crowd why they don't believe and the reason v.37 is
that they have not been given by the Father. Only those that have been given by the Father "looks on the son and believes in him" See also v.65. This is clearly particular not universal.
Concerning John 12:32, the context
gives what is being declared. In the previous chapter we have the prophecy
of Caiaphas the high priest v.51-53 which informs us that Jesus death is not Just for Nation of Israel, but to his children scattered abroad. Now the backdrop for the 12:32 is the Greeks were seeking
him and Jesus was informed of this
v.20-22. Jesus statement "will draw all"
means not that every individual will be drawn, but all without distinction, whether Jew or Gentile.
I truly believe from studying that the Bible overwhelmingly teaches that the gospel is for literally every single human being. Which forces me to believe that Calvinism teaches a false gospel.
God commands all men everywhere to repent. But man is broken and sinful, full of pride, and will not repent (romans 3). Only those whom God has done a saving work will choose Him. Everyone else willfully hates God. Everyone who is saved was once a dead sinner that did not choose God. It take a miracle for a man to be born again. No one can will themselves into a new creation, nor do they want to be a new creation. John 1:13
I understand that it's hard to understand, but sometimes we just have to humble ourselves and trust God, and accept Hos word even when our understanding is limited. So if the Bible teaches something and we don't understand it, we need to humble ourselves and trust that God understands and we don't. Read romans 9
I’m a Lutheran. Not a Calvinist. But you cannot say Calvinists teach a false gospel. That is incorrect and slanderous. They do not deny Justification by Faith in Christ. So please do not say those things.
Yep. Ironically, these guys talk about “letting the Bible speak for itself”, but import an external framework onto it. Calvinism is a modernist experiment, and based on the fruit, it is failing.
God knows beginning to end and who is not His and those whom are His so how will the gospel be of effect to those who will reject God willfully and so then how will it have effect for every single human being? Also God creates man knowing whether they go to heaven or hell even before creating them yet He does so anyhow... Everything God does is good, right, and just...
God's love IS arbitrary - from our perspective. But from His perspective - He has His reasons. But if anyone feels like this is unfair that they're not among the chosen, there's a simple solution: repent and believe for yourself.
Calvinists are half right, as are Arminians. The problem is when people swing too much in one direction. The Bible clearly states that God is sovereign, but it also clearly states that we have a choice. God knows our choices, but it doesn't always mean he chooses for us. Do we as man get to make our choices and suffer the consequences whether good or bad? Yes, we see that happening in Scripture. Does God intervene and cause things to happen as well? Yes of course, we see that happening all the time in Scripture.
All things work together according to his purposes. Our bad choices, God knows we will do them, he knows whether we will repent or not and can use that bad choice to accomplish his will. At the same time, God also says he gives people over to their sin and decisions, but that comes AFTER you've decided. It's both and you can't interpret all verses through one lens.
Calvinism does not teach God chooses for us. He enlightens us so that we are made willing to believe when presented with the gospel.
“I will have mercy upon whosoever is the object of my mercy;” so that I am therefore in this matter dependent on nothing external to myself. This is the sovereignty of the divine compassionating will. FB Meyer
Please explain why only a few were spared in the flood
So many people assert that God does not ordain the sinful actions of men, but this assertion reveals a profound ignorance of scripture.
In the following passages, we see God actively determining, decreeing, setting, predestining, or sending men to perform an action, and for those men who are doing what God has set them to do, it is a sin, an evil act, since they perform the action according to their own wicked intentions, and they could not have done otherwise; God is the ultimate cause of the action that men perform, and yet He is innocent of sin, while men are morally accountable for sin since they are the proximate or efficient cause of the sin in the action that God has ordained: Genesis 50:20, 1 Kings 12:15, Job 1:13-15, 17, 21, Isaiah 10:5-6, Judges 9:22-23, 1 Samuel 2:25, 16:14, 18:10, 19:9, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Psalm 105:24-25, Proverbs 16:4, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 2:8-10, Romans 9:22, Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28, Deuteronomy 2:30.
Jeff would you ever consider doing a debate on this topic with Mike Winger?
Mortal men , in their natural state, cannot accept God's Sovereignty because it's foolishness to them, yet this is what scripture teaches.
Let me reiterate as I did in the chat. If God wants all to be saved. He would be MORE than capable of doing so. How? Because "God MOVES the kings heart to where he wants it to go"(proverbs).
"God OPENED Lydias heart to receive the word"(Book of acts).
If God wanted ALL to be saved, he would move hearts and open them to receive Him.
I fully understand, but that means God chooses people to not be saved, He creates humans who are made in His image specifically to die in their sins and suffer eternally with no choice in the matter whether to exist in the first place, to sin, to accept salvation, this isn't a righteous God, and isn't worthy of worship.
@@Sumoniggro You answered my comment with your emotions. Refutations please.
@@Sumoniggro we all couldn't care less whether you like Calvinism or not. *Refute* the position. Your feelings mean nothing.
@@Sumoniggroyou talk about the judgement of God as being unfair. This is why sin has to be preached on. Look. If every single person who ever lived got sent to hell, it would be JUST, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one is good but God. There is none who does good, all have turned aside, there is none good not even ONE. Anyone who is condemned to hell is condemned rightly for their wickedness. That is what many are brought OUT OF unto salvation. Some receive justice, some receive mercy, none of it is unfair. Those who are saved did not receive what they deserved. The entirety of your question is why Romans 9 was written.
If that were true that would make God a liar, for the bible says that God doesn't wish for anyone to perish, and Jesus said for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, so if God loves the world and doesn't wish for anyone to perish then why would he not move the hearts of everyone and open them up to receive him?
“Was it an accomplished redemption able to perfect forever those who draw near to him” that phrase draw near seems to say that we draw near to him seems to point to us making a concise choice to follow God we can’t make that choice without God for God gives us the ability to make that choice in the first place
PLEASE do more shows on this. I want to know more.
How can Calvinists explain this scripture?
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
@@laurenferris2223I think you’re taking this out of context. No man can turn from all his sinful ways and follows God laws fully.
Yep. Great video.
In Ephesians 1:11, we see that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will.” This “all things,” according to verse 10 includes all things in the heavens and all things on the earth. The word translated into English as “work” is the transitive verb “ἐνεργέω” (energeo), which, as a transitive verb, it has a direct object (all things), and it means “to effect” that direct object. Since all “effects” must have a sufficient cause, this passage quite literally makes God the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth. The same transitive verb construction is seen in Ephesians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 12:6, 11, Galatians 3:5, Philippians 2:13; see Thayer’s, pg. 215. God’s ordination of whatsoever comes to pass often goes by the term “Sovereignty of God,” but also by some as “Exhaustive Divine Determinism.”
How do you avoid inculpating God? What about sin? In what sense does He cause them without being culpable for them?
@@SerendipitousProvidence
Causality is not one dimensional in scripture. While God is properly said to ordain, and thus be the ultimate cause of all things (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36, James 4:13-15) *-even evil-* (cf. Revelation 17:17, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, 1 Kings 22:19-23 / 2 Chronicles 18:18-22) He is never the proximate, or efficient cause of evil, and scripture regards only the proximate or efficient cause of evil as the chargeable or blameworthy party.
In the following passages, we see God actively determining, decreeing, setting, predestining, or sending men to perform an action, and for those men who are doing what God has set them to do, it is a sin, an evil act, since they perform the action according to their own wicked intentions, and they could not have done otherwise; God is the ultimate cause of the action that men perform, and yet He is innocent of sin, while men are morally accountable for sin since they are the proximate or efficient cause of the sin in the action that God has ordained: Genesis 50:20, 1 Kings 12:15, Job 1:13-15, 17, 21, Isaiah 10:5-6, Judges 9:22-23, 1 Samuel 2:25, 16:14, 18:10, 19:9, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Psalm 105:24-25, Proverbs 16:4, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 2:8-10, Romans 9:22, Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28, Deuteronomy 2:30.
Here is an interesting article that might help:
“God and Evil, Why the Ultimate Cause is not the Chargeable Cause,” by Mike Riccardi
thecripplegate.com/god-and-evil-why-the-ultimate-cause-is-not-the-chargeable-cause/
@@lawrencestanley8989 If a rape happened to a little girl, would it be true - in that belief system - to say that God preordained and predetermined that act in some sense? Could we say He desired and willed it to occur?
@@SerendipitousProvidence
I don't understand what you mean by "in that belief system.." It is simply what the Bible teaches; that God is the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth.
Also, why do people go to rape as if that were the worst thing that men can do? In the greatest evil ever recorded of men, Herod, Pontias Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were rightly to blame for the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 4:27). Indeed, Peter openly indicted the men of Israel for their crime (Acts 2:23, 36), and Stephen accused the Jewish leaders of murder, and for that, he was murdered in turn (Acts 7:52-53). And yet Peter also explicitly said that such evil was accomplished by God’s decree, that is, “according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God” (Acts 2:23), even Judas’s betrayal was decreed in scripture (cf. Psalm 41:9, Zechariah 11:12-13, Mark 14:17-21, John 13:10, 18, 21, Acts 1:16). Indeed, Herod, Pilate, the Jews, and the Gentiles “were gathered together” (this is a 3rd person verb in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and passive voice; they were gathered, they didn’t gather themselves) against Jesus “to do whatever [God’s] hand and [his] plan had predestined to take place” (Acts 4:27-28). Clearly, God’s decrees do not absolve man of his moral accountability.
God is the *ultimate* cause of the crucifixion, having predestined every circumstance that led to its occurrence and thus rendering it certain. Second, the Jews were a *proximate* cause, having incited the Romans to crucify Christ. Third, Herod, Pilate, and other godless men were the *efficient* cause, because the crucifixion was carried out by Roman authority. The Jews were thus held accountable as a proximate cause, as Peter said to them, “You crucified and killed [Jesus] by the hands of lawless men” (Acts 2:23).
The Biblical writers never hesitate to say that God raises up sin and evil, yet they never accuse Him of wrongdoing; while God ordains the actions of free moral agents, he never coerces them to act wickedly (God does not make people evil); rather, they act according to their own fallen freedom of inclination in carrying out what God ordains, and are therefore chargeable for their offense.
@@lawrencestanley8989
So, if God is the ultimate cause of all things, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?
As a non Calvinist I agree it is all about the sovereignty of God with a huge difference. The non Calvinist believes that God has actually been defied by his imager who have rebelled and rejected him by their free choice. The Calvinist believe that all the rebels sinners were purposed to rebel by the same eternal decree that purposed those who would believe. Also Christ died for and by that same decree, the sin, the curse, the payment, the damnation all by the same decree. Just plainly state the difference and it’s not difficult to see which is better supported by scripture.
No, you didn't give a right summary. So obviously, you have a false conclusion.
@@toddcote4904What did I sat that is not true of Calvinism?
@toddcote4904
That is what Jeff teaches.
I guess I was just predestined to not believe reformed theology.....
Predestined to believe a lie
Yeah...God does not interfere with your idiotic notions but will order it for HIS GLORY!
😂😂 nice 👍 I’m reformed but that’s hilarious
Oh wow. The same joke every single year. Lololololol.
How about you bring scripture instead of empty human words
Am I the only one who loves all these leaders from both sides of the spectrum and appreciates their work? I'm just tired of the back and forth whiplash from this subject and leaders. Should we continue to wrestle with it? Or is it now just a waste of time? Tired of grown men who are leaders in the church try to convince their audience that another leader is an utterly ridiculous fool because of this very subject matter. Zzzzzzz
Agreed
Yea, so I take it you're not a Calvinist 😅
So is it only this subject that should be off limits? Should we not inform others when a teacher has a false understanding? It’s called discernment. Not everyone has it!
Both sides....there's ONE side. That's the Word of God.
The Word of God tells us we are with Him as believers FOREVER.
If one goes against that, they are not with Jesus but against Him.
God gives hardness of heart as His curse unto people. And nothing can be added or removed from what God does, SO THAT men should fear before Him.
Lamentations 3:64-66 (ASV):
64 Thou wilt render unto them a recompense, O Jehovah, according to the work of their hands.
65 Thou wilt give them hardness of heart, thy curse unto them.
66 Thou wilt pursue them in anger, and destroy them from under the heavens of Jehovah.
Ecclesiastes 3:14 (ASV):
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that men should fear before him.
When you read and understand the Bible and take the veil off, you will realize that Calvinism is in accurate. Sam Shamoun has a great video on UA-cam on this. He used to be a 5 point calvinist by the way.
Sam Shamoun is a Bible encyclopaedia
Well Done gentlemen this was a blessing keep up the good work. It all starts with recognizing God's sovereignty thanks for hammering that home God bless
I hope this clarifies things for you.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
Its true that some people believe it
That's not the question, ppl believe lies all day every day and I thank God His Word is true, as is Calvinism perfectly true bc it's consistent with scripture.
@@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023 Calvin established his own empire and executed people who disagreed with him since he was emperor and he was antisemitic. I doubt Jesus or any writer of Scripture was a Calvinist since he was not even born.
@daryldaryl5923 Calvin did not establish an empire and execute people who disagreed with him, that's just slander. And as Spurgeon once put it, Calvinism is just a nickname for Biblical Christianity. I don't even really like the term Calvinism, because it connotes that Calvin invented the theology, meanwhile people were arguing the exact same soteriology from scripture long before Calvin. Even during the Reformation, the first published debate in book form was Luther and Erasmus arguing on the nature of the human will, with Luther pointing out to the Catholics that the will is under bondage to sin until the Holy Spirit grants regeneration.
@@HartyBiker He established Geneva as a theocracy and executed Servetus in Geneva for disagreeing with him, and reformed theology is antisemitic, they claim covenants that are not covenants while ignoring the covenants the Bible actually names s covenants.
@daryldaryl5923 again, that's just slander and frankly bad history. Calvin did not have Servetus executed, the most you can say is that he did not protest the execution of a man who was travelling around Europe looking to be martyred by proclaiming formal heresy in denying the Trinity. Calvin and Servetus didn't even clash on the doctrine of justification, it was the doctrine of God Himself. Furthermore, you slander all reformed people in calling us anti-semitic when you know full well that God's sovereignty in choosing to save whom He wills has nothing to do with how we view the Jewish people as fellow image bearers of God. I happen to have some Jewish heritage, and that doesn't clash at all with my distinctly reformed (specifically Dutch Reformed) soteriology.
Besides all that, there are very few who are reformed, who subscribe to the doctrines of grace, who would claim to be followers of John Calvin, as we see that he shared the same radically depraved nature as the rest of us. So when we see that there were flaws in his life, even if he had called for Servetus's execution, that does not have any bearing on whether or not he was right in his doctrine of justification and salvation. It's a genetic fallacy at best to use this kind of argumentation.
Loved this!!! Please do more!!
I'm fan of Pastor Jeff Durbin, but I strongly oppose Calvinism. When it comes to predestination, in Romans 8, Paul is writing that those who are in Christ are predestined to be conformed into the image of Jesus, not that certain individuals are predestined to become believers. I'll end with 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." God bless you all
Right and always says God wishes none to perish but that people come to repentance meaning God is giving people chance to turn to him before their fate is sealed. Idk how calvinsim is a theology
God gave us his son so that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. Not just the “elect.”
in the same way that you could argue that the "those" in romans 8 is referring to those who already believe, rather than those who God chose, a calvinist could argue that "all" in 2 peter 3 is arguing for those that God chose, rather than those who choose to believe?
... additionally, if God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance...
but some don't come to repentance...
isn't God slack, when it comes to his promise?
@@Oli_The_HouseCat
Salvation is an act of God, not an act of man's decision. God does not save someone because they said 'yes' to the gospel. Someone says 'yes' to the gospel because God chose them.
@@Oli_The_HouseCatdo you really believe God is incapable of saving someone that He wills to save?
"How did I not see this, because it's on every page, virtually."
This is the problem. How *did* Christians not see this until Calvin? Please don't claim Augustine was Calvinist or something. Be serious.
Calvinism is just Jehovah's Witness "144,000 ism" for Protesants. 'My interpretation which just so happens to be John Calvin's too is in fact the right itnerpretation of the Bible missed by all Christians before John Calvin.'
Your faith is named after a man because a man is the originator of it.
Who's the originator of the Catholic faith? No man. "The Lord of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall not be destroyed."
Thanks for your work against abortion, though. We will never have enough laborers in that regard.
I have come to realise that God came here to establish a denomination or religion but a personal relationship with people.
@@laurenferris2223 Jesus, as He said Himself, came to establish a Church, He didn't come to away with the idea of a church.
In Hebrew church means simply congregation or gathering, but we know what way they meant that word due to how it is used in the place it originated, namely, that it didn't just mean generically any group of humans - it referred to the whole body and system of worshipers of God as a group - Israel - including all of its structure and purpose. It was and is synyonymous with "Israel." In the New Testament, the Church is physical Israel combined with Gentiles, namely, it is all spiritual sons of Abraham - faith-havers in the true God, namely through the promised "Seed, which is Christ." In fact, even in the Old Testament - and not many know this - the Jews accepted converts, and much like now where we baptize them, they circumcised them. THey were considered fully part of Israel by both God and the native Hebrews/Israelites. So "the church" and "Israel" were synonymous, both in the Old Testament, and for the Apostles - it's simply that there was an inpouring of Gentile converts due to the hardness of the physical sons of Abraham.
In the Bible, the Church always has leaders, rituals and times and seasons, and you can know their names and so forth such that you, by knowing whether you are in communion with them and the Church of which they are leaders, can know if you are in the true Church.
Are you in the same church as Zadok the high priest? Someone could ask you as a Jew. If you lived in 200AD you could ask, are you in the same church as Victor bishop of Rome?
It's the same question because it's the same Israel.
Since the Protestant revolt 500 years ago, but also in every other heretical sect that popped up in history, of which there are many, the person who comes to believe that Jesus can/did save them from their sins, and thus wants to do everything they need to be doing His will with regard to what a true Christian is and which Church he must belong to - in a word, becomes Christian for the first time, or first time seriously - is left to 'church shop' until his interpretation of the Bible lines up with whatever church they find themselves in.
'I read x Gospel, and believe in Reformed views, therefore I attend a Reformed church now.'
'I read y Epistle and now believe that the Watchtower has the most coherent interpretation of the Bible and they are the true church I must follow, and which Jesus was talking about.'
Notice something is lacking in every single cult and sect. Something which is proof they cannot be sure of these convictions, number one, but more importantly, proof that they aren't the true church?
Pedigree.
None of their leaders go beyond a Luther or a Joseph Smith or Calvin or Ellen G White.
That's a problem. It sounds nice on paper and elsewhere to say, 'well just read the Bible - doesn't what I say it means sound like the most plausible interpretation - the only one that can account for x, y and z? It's not my opinion that this is what the Bible means - I'm just reading what it says!'
But no one can test that. The 'proof' in this instance, is mere agreement that they have interpreted as you also would - which is not proof. And Jesus didn't leave such an important question as which church He established with the Apostles up to the fallible whims of whichever pastor can win over more people to whichever interpretation they feel is best.
No, remember what I said above - in the Bible, the church is ALWAYS a fixed, known, physical entity (yes, even if the elect are a subset, at any given time, within that larger group - and even though 'Israel' can be used of the elect or a mixture of elect and just physical Israelites) with real, physical leaders, who, by succession, inheret the roles of their predecessors in teaching or serving or whatever it is they do.
As such, anyone not in communion with the leaders of that ONE church Jesus started CANNOT POSSIBLY - it is impossible - be the true church.
Even if all the leaders of the true, one, church Jesus started, all went apostate - you still couldn't start up a new church, because it would be a new church. You would have to simply insist on keeping the faith that their predecessors kept, and which they've abandoned.
And the idea that there would be a wholesale apostasy from 33AD to 1500AD is ridiculous, unbiblical tripe. It reminds me of people who act as if the whole world is America and didn't exist until America did. No, Christians have been writing about and defending the faith and spilling their blood for it and starting hospitals and universities and spreading the gospel and just being the salt of the earth LONG before any Protestant revolt, or any of the cults which have plagued the church were even the twinkle in a heretic's eye.
The elect are people who Christ chooses from among Christians, that's what elect/chosen means. "Many are called, but few are elect." It doesn't mean that you can know you are one of them because Scripture says that He does know - of course He knows from eternity all things. It even says that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth. But clearly it's talking about God's foreknowledge and thus the surety of its being accomplished - and distinctly NOT the heretical idea that it took place in eternity past, and then AGAIN 2000 years ago. We must not understand Scripture contrary to reason and the faith always recieved by the Christian faithful.
Jesus established the Catholic Church, and it is the only Church with a pedigree that goes back to the Apostles.
Which is proof that any other church cannot be the Church Jesus established - He only established one, and disagreement with - even vehement condemnation and rejection of - leaders would not be grounds to DARE to establish a new church.
Christ established the Church on Peter, and the gates of hell, contrary to people who believe the Church was wholesale corrupt until a proud, foul-mouthed, guttonous, vowbreaking, utterly blasphemous fool named Marthin Luther came along, were promised never to prevail against it.
The church was not prophesied to be 'rebuilt' 500 years ago. This is literal Jehovah's Witness/Mormon/Ellen G White level stuff.
And besides, it still doesn't solve the problem - that there is no break in this Church - if you're not in it, you are simply not in it.
And again, Jesus only established one.
God bless.
@@AveChristusRex I have learnt that the church are the people, not the building,nor denomination.
We have slapped labels where they shouldn't be.
The church are His true followers that obey His commands not people that call themselves Christians but live a disobedient life.
People have added their own rituals and traditions that have absolutely nothing to do with Christ.
Either you follow Jesus and His commands, which would make you a Christian or you don't.
Some people pretend to be Christian but they will be spat out by God.
If you don't belong to Jesus' one Church, a body of believers with set rituals and beliefs written or not, then you can't possibly follow His commandments, for He commanded you to be part of His Church @@laurenferris2223
If God predetermined (long before birth) whether you are of the elect or not, then it doesn’t matter what you do in life or what choices you make. You are simply along for the ride, much like life would be under atheism.
[Citation required] please cite scripture.
That is what is known as a misunderstanding and a mischaracterization.
Go ahead on that assumption and learn that's why you aren't one of the elect on judgement day.
Atheism says that there is no author, there is no story, and it's all just random. Calvinism says that God is the Author of Life, He writes the story, He is perfect, His plans are perfect, and they cannot be thwarted. We may be along for the ride, but unlike the meaninglessness of atheism, our ride has a true, predetermined destination. The story has a plot. We as characters are responsible for our actions, but to say that that means God has no power over our actions is believing ourselves to be more powerful than God. An arminian can worry that they might not fulfill God's purpose. Atheism has no purpose. Calvinism teaches that God has a purpose for all things and those purposes will be fulfilled no matter what. Because our God is in the Heavens and He does ALL that He pleases, whether we like it or not. The Author is sovereign over the story, all we can do is trust and obey.
Have you all lost your MINDS?? This is the hypocrisy I see when yall wanna call out Mormons (rightfully so) and make them embrace the logical conclusion of there beliefs and then dont want to see or hear people state the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Im a Christian and this needs to stop. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is what @ronjones2266 stated.
How do you not move into determinism from Calvinism?
If you’re wondering how can a Calvinist not hold to determinism. I think there are plenty of ways.
I believe God predestined all “necessary” things, while leaving contingent things up to us. So life isn’t fully determined.
But others hold to Compatabilism, others Molinism, so Calvinism is just how someone is saved, I wouldn’t call it a deterministic philosophy.
It’s, our spirit is dead, our flesh cannot choose what is spiritual, so God gives you a new spirit. God overcomes all resistance of the human heart wanting to reject the gospel, so they choose the gospel, and God moves and works in their heart to keep them.
I’m 99% sure I choose what I eat for breakfast, I’m 99% sure I choose my clothes.
But there are verses that make it seem pretty blatantly that every single thing that ever comes to pass is predestined, or at least “decided should come to pass by God”.
I think God can foresee things, and decided whether it should, or should not happen (not sacrificing Christ, should not happen).
But I’m just along for the ride. We will see in heaven.
I’m not gonna lie, I LOVE YOU GUYS but this was the most contradictory thing I’ve ever watched, I’m not a Calvinist but I wanted to watch anyway and I’ve come out more “non Calvinist” then I’ve EVER been, one thing that really struck me is when Zach said we’re souls that God chooses how to “dispose” of either by his wrath or Grace. I believe the Bible clearly states that Gods wants EVERYONE to come to Salvation he DOES NOT HAVE FAVORITES. If God is free to determine EVERYTHING why wouldn’t he be free to let us have freedom??
Wow you are sadly misguided, what a terrible state😟
@@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023 please tell me how I’m wrong.
I love when people say "i belive the bible says..."
@@theopneustos3712 Like they didn’t say that too? 😂
They believe the Bible teaches believer baptism Doug willson doesn’t, they have the same bible, it’s called ✨interpretation✨
Why should it bother you if he is misguided If God has already elected those who are going to heaven,makes no sense to even worry about it.I mean he can’t do anything about it so it’s pointless even to comment.
I love you guys and listen to you all the time. I also grew up a reformed evangelical, but I just can't get behind calvanism.....God desires all to be saved. Being made in the image of God means he gave us free will. He calls all men to come to him. John 3:16 for WHOEVER believes in me...the gospel message is an open invitation for all people. God doesn't choose to allow majority of mankind to go to hell. Instead he choosen to give man a choice, a choice to choose him as Lord and savior for their sins.
Exactly. I still don’t understand how so many still choose Calvinism over this 🤔
@@0oChrisHBKo0 it's because if total depravity. They say there's nothing we can do on our own. God gives BOTH grace and the faith part. ...it makes sense BUT what makes less is that would mean 1. God is the author of evil 2. Why does he "choose" to allow most of man kind to go to hell.
@@0oChrisHBKo0when I say author of evil I mean- When you ask a Calvanist did God predestine and bring about the Holocaust they will say yes. Yes, because you CAN NOT have meaningfulless evil. So although we can not comprehend with our human brains, God brought about the Holocaust to 1. Glorify himself and 2. Save his elect. To me(and many pastors and scholars) though this would make God the author of evil...
A better explanation of it in my mind is that man, through sinful free will brought about the Holocaust and God supercedes our sinful free will and brings about his plan to reveal himself to mankind.
A perfect example is Pharaoh
Calvanist- God LITERALLY hardened the heart of Pharaoh like some heart surgery.
Well wrong if you look at the context of the story Pharaohs heart got more and more wicked through his free will and God hardened his heart through bringing the plagues.
That's how I see it. But I have the most respect to reformed evangelicals and calvanists
Are you saying that humans can thwart God?
@Sumoniggro Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him that striveth against his maker..." keep reading about the clay and the Potter. Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on.." v20 "Nay but, O man, Who art thou to repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?" You are judging God unrighteous... becareful. Instead l implore you to submit to God and His Decree's....plant yourself in Romans 9 until you can accept it. It's a continuous thought from Romans 8:28-30...v33 calls them the Elect. Chap 9 teaches us who are the Elect. You must accept God as He reveals himself. 📖🌷
That voice act was awesome!! 😃👍
Yeah i wanna see the non Calvinists explain the hardening of Pharaoh's heart lol God rules it all people!!
Oh, they sure do try lol just try listening to Leighton Flowers.
@@elishakong8927 I have! Why is he so negative and such a hater? He thinks we're dumb or something. I can read for myself lol 😆
Strong's concordance translation is to grow firm or strong, to strengthen, so God strengthened Pharaoh's heart.
@@benjy288so what does that mean to you, in context?
@@DaveH8905 To put it in modern terms I take that to mean that God basically strengthened Pharaoh's resolve, not that God turned his heart hard or cold, but he just strengthened what was already there, I believe in the Pharaoh's heart he never intended to let them go.
Oh man! it's been along time since we've had an appearance from Mortimer!
Can you please debate or discuss this topic with someone who disagrees? As iron sharpens iron, I'd like to see the claims of Calvinism tested against opposing views. I'd love to see this discussed with Leighton Flowers of Soteriology101. God bless, my fellow brothers in Christ.
James White did a debate with him already. They don’t need to have Leighton on the show every time they want to talk about God being sovereign.
It's Leighton's sole purpose to oppose Calvinism that's all he talks about 😅
@@barrettcarl3009 exactly. It’s bizarre. When your entire life’s work seems to be opposing Christian theology, it makes me wonder about you 😂
I hope this clarifies things for you.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
What does the Calvinist say sin is? The Biblical definition of sin, is missing the mark. Not doing God's will. How can there be sin if God is CAUSING everything to happen? What is sin if EVERYTHING that happens, ONLY happens because GOD CAUSES it to happen? Also, how can there be obedience if EVERTHING ONLY happens because AGAIN God cause all to happen, even "obedience" to God's commands?
for the glory of God. Read Exodus 7, Isaiah 45, John 17, and Romans 9. if you dont like it, it’s your problem. not a problem with God’s word
@@peterbranch1425
@MB777-qr2xv But, the problem is the Calvinist believes in a God who CAUSES rape, murder, LGBTQ, child pornography, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, alcoholism, drug addiction, in fact, any Satanic thing you can think of. According to the Hyper-Calvinist, God CAUSES ALL THINGS, so therefore all these evil things That is NOT the God of the Bible who IS LOVE. God allowing all these things to happen UNTIL He deals with them on Judgment Day, is NOT the same as causing them. Are they (Calvinists) worshipping a FALSE God?
Jeremiah 19:5 has God saying, "The people built the high places to sacrifice their children to idols, something I DID NOT COMMAND, nor did I speak it, nor did it enter my mind."
Galatians 1:9 says, "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." This Calvinistic Gospel where God causes EVERYTHING is NOT what Paul preached.
Its even harder when people use presuppositional apologetics FOR Calvinism.
They presuppose it's true first, and then say its up to you to prove it's not. Thats why their framing of the position can be so convincing.
We've really gotta get past calvinistic doctrines people.
NOT past John Calvin (great theologian), or past the rest of reformed theology (Arminius was a Reformed theologian). But 5-point calvinism is showing to be toxic, exclusive, and divisive--bearing bad fruits as an idea.
It is even worse when people only argue theology without scripture... :)
@@dand4485 is it though? You could argue any position through Scripture. You could shotgun many verses to support and construct one's position.
But to presuppose you're right when trying to convince someone else is much more annoying
@@Joelthinker You're right but where is the scripture to say 'x' Just like i could argue "All paths lead to God..." Right, I would argue this is absolutely true. And before today you and many others would say i'm wrong.... But context, scripture. From scripture i read all people will stand in front of God, most on His left and some one His right. All ways, or any way a person walks will get them to God... Right that is what scripture says, now the rest of what scripture says.... Those on His left go into hell... Those on His right into heaven and pleaseure for ever more... So my point is.... Would assert is made at frist a statement most would reject as my opinion, and from your opinion bet you and many others would have said i'm wrong... But all the while i made a point and can easliy back it up with scripture to prove the points all paths do leadt to God...
While i get kind of a sour note that one can argue any point and expect any outcome or thought from one's perspective. That doesn't seem right. Well it could if there is no objective absolute truth? That for me is where it seems the sour note i pick up from you comment. Might argue anyone can argue any point, but in the end what is true and correct based on God's objective truth is more what matters. Anyone is free to argue and hold their own personal view, best of all.... The person making the point is solely responsible... And for that matter im not sure where i asserted i'm right? Where did i? I'm human and just as possible to be in error as well. Could be equally correct i'm completely erroneous as well. Just seems when talking with people who will argue against the points i assert, people have not really been able to come back with sound/reasonable point. Not that i'm asserting my ideas, but would assert i'm only doing my best to be an abassador and saying This is what God has said... Then again many over my 50 years as a Christian, may not be the you fit into this but they are someone who has not really read the entire Bible and are able to parse and present what it says...
Hey pastor Jeff what Bible version is that is it the ESV?
Why even preach if Calvinism is true? It’s all predetermined.
@brettk1517 Lutheran’s hold to the five points of Calvinism as it pertains to predestination and external security do they not? I’m under the impression that Lutherans and more Calvinistic denominations differ over the sacraments, but ultimately don’t Lutheran’s hold to the doctrines of grace and therefore also be considered Calvinists?
I think there are two sets of Lutherans, if you will. There are the Calvinistic ones that still hold to what Luther taught, and then there are the ones that have gone very liberal and reject most of what Luther taught. I think the Calvinistic ones are Missouri Synod if I'm not mistaken.
Calvinism is from the devil. God is righteous and Just. Why Is God knocking on the door of our hearts? If he knows if we will open our hearts or not.. he is worthy of praise. Because of his goodness not because he demands it.
Scripture never says anywhere that God is knocking at the door of your heart. Scripture says that only those drawn by the Father can come to faith in the Son, and that all those drawn will be raised to everlasting life by the Son. (See John 6 for that terminology)
@@HartyBiker So God delights in punishing humans, because in His sovereignty He let the Jews go astray several times only to punish them, He let Sodom and Gomorrah exist only for the purpose of destroying all the humans in it, the God of Calvinism is a capricious and pernicious God.
God was standing at the door of the self righteous church of Laodicea knocking because they had shut him out. He is saying that if ANYONE (meaning, even one single person) would open the door, He would come in and be a part of that church, but thus far they haven’t, and they make Him sick (spit you out of my mouth). It’s a tragically sad statement, but also a promise that God can do work in a church even if there are only but a few true believers. You have to read the Bible in context. You cannot use “God knocking” as an argument against His sovereignty in salvation.
@Sumoniggro And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory- even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24 LSB
Apparently, my previous comment was deleted.
@@DaveH8905 certainly you can use God knocking against the idea of His sovereignty as understood by Calvinism, why knock knowing He didn't will any of them to answer anyway? It is rather paradoxical and futile unless you can choose to answer without God first willing it.
What is Provisionism?
The terms Provisionism and Provisionist are new by the standards of Christian theology. These labels have only been formally defined and used in the past few years. In broad terms, a Provisionist-someone who holds to Provisionism-holds a generally Arminian view of free will and salvation, with notable differences such as positive belief in eternal security. The main gist of Provisionism is the idea that the gospel is the Word of God, which is sufficient in itself, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to enable a response in all who hear God’s appeal to be reconciled to Him (John 6:63; Hebrews 4:12).
The clearest differences between Provisionist doctrine and classical Reformed theology are seen in the concepts of total depravity and limited atonement. The doctrine of total depravity suggests all people are inherently sinful, such that they could not even want to be saved without a direct, predestined act of God. Provisionism counters that all people are sinful and responsible for their sin, but they are also responsible for answering God’s universal call for men to be saved (Titus 2:11). Limited atonement is a doctrine teaching that Christ only died for those God had designated as the elect. A Provisionist would reject this, saying that the Bible teaches that Christ died for all people (1 John 2:2), which is why God promises to save any who come to Him in faith (Romans 10:11-13; Revelation 22:17). The Provisionist holds that Christ genuinely desires all of humanity to be saved (Luke 5:32; 19:10; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; ).
In effect, this means a Provisionist would also reject other Reformed doctrines such as irresistible grace.
The main use of the term Provisionism comes from the writings of theologian Leighton Flowers. The term is also meant to describe the general approach to salvation held by most Southern and Independent Baptists. So far as Reformed doctrine is concerned, this means narrow disagreement on the subjects of total depravity and limited atonement, as well as the exact meaning of words like predestined and elect.
Similar to the TULIP in Calvinism, Provisionism can be summarized with the acrostic PROVIDE
Responsible: Able-to-respond to God’s appeals for reconciliation.
Open door: For anyone to enter by faith. Whosoever will may come to His open arms.
Vicarious atonement: Provides a way for anyone to be saved by Christ’s blood.
Illuminating grace: Provides clearly revealed truth so that all can know and respond in faith.
Destroyed: For unbelief and resisting the Holy Spirit.
Eternal security: For all true believers.
Constantly trying to prove Calvinism is a form of idolatry. No one truly knows how freewill works with God. It’s not our job to tell a sinner he/she wasn’t chosen by God so therefor they don’t stand a chance for salvation. Our job is to tell every sinners they do have the choice to accept or reject the gospel. The results is for God to determine.
no calvinist I know has stated "It’s our job to tell a sinner he/she wasn’t chosen by God"
That is not what calvinism says at all. We are all the church of christ under the great comission to preach the gospel to everyone. Calvinism explains why not everyone gets saved, God saves those who believe on his son not everyone ever in existence.
@@stoneyq4259 No form of Christianity I know says everyone is saved, it comes with an acceptance of the gift of salvation which one chooses to accept or reject willingly, what Calvinism teaches is that God creates millions of souls predestined for eternal punishment, that makes God either evil or apathetic instead of just and loving. I now understand why some atheists call God evil because they understand God through a calvinistic lens and they are right about the God of Calvinism.
Obsessively hating calvinisn is idolatry
@@Sumoniggro if you are a christian, you have to contend with romans 9:
14-17: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
and 19-23: "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, "
I was pre destined to like this video.
Just a little joke.
I am no Calvinist either, but i liked the video.
You can't be a believer and say Calvinism is not Biblical, you may not like it or see it another way biblically but can't say it's not biblical.
How wrong are you
@@Oli_The_HouseCat So you willed yourself to believe ? Or did God regenerate you?
I’m a believer and Calvinism is NOT Biblical.
There, I said what is very obvious.
@@jamestoo1517 smh, where is this biblical?
Yes you can
29:35 “Definite redemption” Not true the way he describes it but true on its own. There certainly was definite redemption, God forgave the sins of all men when he accepted Christ’s sacrifice. He definitely redeemed all men and justified all men and brought us all back from banishment and brought us before his throne on our knees so that now any man can surrender to his mercy and to this who do he will grant eternal life. Previously, when we were justly banished for our sins, no surrender, no repentance could buy God’s mercy. But now that he’s had grace on us and given us the ability to surrender, now it matters.
Calvinists have to redefine so many things to fit into their own theology. But here is one critical thought. Over the time there has been a lot of churches that came out of spontaneous work of Holy Spirit without an outside influence of missionaries. After people started to study Bible. A lot of that happened in the communist block but also other places. Those churches always look very similar. But they never look like Calvinist places. They never teach limited attunement and actually non of the tulip's heresies. So thank you Calvinists but no thank you.
Amen
Not an argument
What are you even talking about lol
Thankyou! Always learn alot
The Bible has the "free will" in it 17 times. How can someone read the Bible and be a Calvinist? Stop following men and look at the Word.
Calvinists don't follow John Calvin. We follow Christ and Christ alone. We believe in the doctrines of grace that are rooted in the Bible. Also can you please share ONE scripture that supports human free will?
Read Westminster Confession chapter nine. Very interesting. Also, research compatibilism. Calvinists do not deny free will. They do deny that someone who is born in sin can choose God.
@@VickersJon We're all born in sin. Yikes.
@@cassiebennet4262 Precisely. But this is good news. If it was up to our sinful nature/choice, we would have no chance. Praise God he breathes life into us. Romans 3:10-12 “None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
And Romans 5:18-19
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
But seriously, check out Westminster Confession chapter nine. Free will is not thrown out wholesale.
@@cassiebennet4262 Precisely. But this is good news. If it was up to our sinful nature/choice, we would have no chance. Praise God he breathes life into us. Romans 3:10-12 “None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
And Romans 5:18-19
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
But seriously, check out Westminster Confession chapter nine. Free will is not thrown out wholesale.
38:03 Always so frustrating to hear when Calvinists quote Ephesians 1 because they have no self awareness that the passage not only doesn’t say God **ONLY** chose some people, and actually says that he **also** chose us. The passage teaches that the Jews aren’t the only chosen ones, the Gentiles are also chosen, everyone is chosen. Yet they quote incessantly as if it teaches their errant belief system. SMH
You're still here?
Everyone is chosen? Romans 8, those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also Glorified. (That isn't all, it's some). You're wrong.
Anyhow, that's what Paul is saying in Ephesians 1. God Predestined the called. Predestined, the ELECT. How do we know? Mark 13. The angels will gather the ELECT. That's prophecy of the elect being *absolutely* redeemed. In other words, we WILL be Glorified.
You seem to not know your bible very well for someone who claims to know his bible really well.
@@DjSostre7 said by someone who doesn’t know his Bible very well.
@@TheRomans9Guy do you not realize that ALL of your comments do not negate what we teach?
You said in your original comment that God still CHOSE. (He just didn't choose some-which is false).
We know and believe GOD CHOSE. That's what we teach. You didn't refute us.
Secondly, you say That God chose now GENTILES not just Jews. We believe that. AGAIN, not negating our position. You don't seem to be too bright.
@@TheRomans9Guy sorry to be so upfront by the way. I realize my comments are demeaning in ways. Forgive me. But in all seriousness, I feel that people who do not understand Calvinism fully make these errors.
Calvinism is simply not taught anywhere in scripture. Teaching that God arbitrarily sends people to hell, which piper and mcarthur do, is heresy. It denies the character of God: that God is love
AMEN
Calvinism doesn't teach that, so you are clearly dishonest bc you don't know what you're talking about🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ JMac and Piper don't teach that either, ppl are judged justly for their sins in hell and that is not arbitrary or heresy! So fear God and love His truth, renew your mind 😮
@@Dylan-MiddletonYou are saying Amen to lies and non sense, what a shame the ignorance 😟
Calvinism is on every page of Scripture. Nobody says that God arbitrarily sends people to hell. People go to hell because they deserve it because of their sin. God chooses whom He saves. God’s choice is based upon nothing other than His own purpose and will and His great love. God never does anything arbitrarily.
@@AustinGonder God causes them to sin, that’s literally what calvinism teaches
Im not calvanist per say, but i do believe there's some doctrinal truth and i like to extract the truths from doctrinal traditions. To me you get a bigger picture of the biblical narrative.
If God has expectations for all humans and he punishes them for their rebellion in eternal judgment, then there is no such thing as free will because if free will existed there would be no judgment for those decisions.
Has anything in reality ever been two things at once?
That doesn't make sense.
That argument really doesnt make any sense. I think you should read that back to yourself a few times
go read romans 9
It makes sense. The cognitive dissonance you're getting is your inability to refute my argument. Jesus saves. We were born into sin. We didn't choose to be born into sin, and our choices can't save us. We make decisions and choices, but those decisions or choices can't atone for our sin. Whoever sins is a slave to sin, but the free gift of Grace is eternal life. Unless God gave us a gift of his sovereign will, we would be damned.
if u believe in the doctrines of TULIP, u are a Calvinist. the U, unconditional election, teaches that God during eternity's past, predestined the destination of humanity: some for heaven and others for hell. this means men are born with their destinies ALREADY decided for them. this unconditional predestination is IRREVERSIBLE. to all this we may add that man has no free will. his volition is constantly and TOTALLY fettered to God's omnipotent will, according to Calvin. furthermore, man is incapable of making any moral decisions (he was born morally depraved, the T of TULIP, total depravity)) specially his need to get saved UNLESS he is one of the elect chosen for salvation. this fortunate individual was really born "saved" he just does not know it yet. but a time will come in his lifetime when Calvin's god will use his irresistible force Calvin called grace (I of TULIP) at which time, this fortunate elect, will have a "lights on experience" forced upon him by Calvin's god. he will receive the ability to reason, believe the gospel and get "saved." this "salvation" experience will exclude repentance, since Calvin taught only a "saved elect" can repent. a never saved sinner could never repent on its own, of course, he must be a chosen elect. BTW Calvin reversed the biblical order of salvation, "repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus." Acts 20:21
in Calvin's theology, elect sinners first get "saved" and then repent. in other words, repentance is NOT needed to get forgiven, even though this has massive contradictions from the Scriptures,
"and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you." Acts 8:22
“Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
Acts 11:18
"...God...now commands all men everywhere to repent," Acts 17:30
"For godly sorrow produces repentance LEADING TO SALVATION, not to be regretted..." 2 Cor. 7:10
"The Lord is...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet. 3:9
all these exhortations to repent were given to NEVER saved before sinners.
let's speak now of the unfortunate non elect. they were born predestined for hell. this death sentence cannot be reversed because Calvin's god will refuse to grant the non elect the same life saving ability to reason and believe the gospel he gave the elect. in this scenario, the non elect are doomed and without hope. this is proof Calvin's god does not want to save everyone. this is the L of TULIP, limited atonement.
BTW biblical proof the God of the Bible wants to save everyone. the pride of man is the obstacle that prevents sinners from coming to come to the Lord on His terms.
JESUS DIED FOR ALL MEN
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN to Myself.” John 12:32
"Come to Me, ALL you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28
"but now God commands ALL MEN everywhere to repent,"
Acts 17:30.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN." Rom. 5:18.
"For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One DIED FOR ALL, THEN ALL DIED; and He DIED FOR ALL, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." 2 Cor. 5:15, 16
"WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 Tim. 2:4
"Who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL, the testimony given at the proper time."
1 Tim. 2:6.
"we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim. 4:10.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN"
Titus 2:11
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANYONE SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE" 2 Pet. 3:9
"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death FOR EVERYONE." Heb. 2:9
Jesus died for everyone.
Amen
Yet few will be saved. I wonder how you get a weak powerless Jesus out of Scripture. In your opinion Jesus dies for the sinner that flips him off meaning Jesus' death for that sinner wasn't able to save. That's not the God of the Bible.
@@mikhailyaremkiv Jesus death doesn't take away people's free will. People can still choose to sin.
What are you trying to say anyway? Sounds like you have a pretty distorted and confused view of your Creator. I don't think you'll be calling Him weak to His face.
@@laurenferris2223you believe Jesus makes men saveable. The biblical view is that Jesus actually saves men.
You've painted an image of a Savior that just hopes that men accept His invitation; instead of the One in Scripture who actually calls His own out of sin and redeems them.
False
Which bible translation does Jeff Durbin prefer?
To answer your question, no. It’s is certainly and definitely not true. I have done my study, listened to the debates, gotten into the Greek and Hebrew. It is not true.
Funny because I can name a dozen who have "done their study, listened to the debates, gotten into the Greek and hebrew" and say it is true. See how silly arbitrary comments like yours are?
39:39 there is even Satan with his schemes, there is his disciples.. Still God is sovereign it is as simple as that.
No. Calvinism is not true. One has to ignore a couple dozen Bible verses to believe it. To believe Calvinism, one must misunderstand the very verses that are used to defend it. STUDY, to show thyself approved unto God.
Ive studied any verses that seemed like prooftexts against the soteriology in ignorance. Still fire breathing
How about you explain it instead of hurling insults and acting smug. Bring the verses or quiet down
My name is Jacob zamira, not that that is important I think I believe more on the calvinistic side of God being Sovereign over everything my question is one of two parts why doesn't the Calvinists bring up if there is Free Will God can't realistically know everything and every decision and the second part of the question is why don't Calvinists ever bring up some 139 :16 B the ESV says it like this in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Do you realize what that says?😊
This is Jacob zamira the scripture is from Psalm 139: 16 B sorry
Spoiler Alert: Yes it is.
Is Calvinism True?
Response:
1. According to John Calvin in his preface to the 1545 French edition of The Institutes of the Christian Religion, (A) God and not Calvin was the true author of the Institutes, and that (B) the Institutes should be memorized first before reading the Bible in order to have a "profitable" understanding of the latter:
A. "And since we are bound to acknowledge that all truth and sound doctrine proceed from God, I [John Calvin] will venture boldly to declare what I think of this work [the Institutes], ACKNOWLEDGING IT TO BE GOD'S WORK RATHER THAN MINE ... "
B. "My opinion of the work then is this: I EXHORT ALL, WHO REVERENCE THE WORD OF THE LORD, TO READ IT [the Institutes], AND DILIGENTLY IMPRINT IT ON THEIR MEMORY, IF THEY WOULD IN THE FIRST PLACE, HAVE A SUMMARY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, and, in the second place, an introduction to the profitable reading both of the Old and New Testament."
[Preface To The Reader, SUBJECT OF THE PRESENT WORK, (prefixed to the French edition, published at Geneva in 1545.), Beveridge translation, Page 22, Paragraph 6; ntslibrary website, Institutes of the Christian Religion, pdf page 30 of 944]
2. Calvin employed similar language indicating that The Institutes of the Christian Religion were divinely inspired in his 1537 preface to the Latin edition when giving his PREFATORY ADDRESS TO HIS MOST CHRISTIAN MAJESTY, THE MOST MIGHTY AND ILLUSTRIOUS MONARCH, FRANCIS, KING OF THE FRENCH:
"But our doctrine [the Institues] must stand sublime above all the glory of the world, and invincible by all its power, because it [the Institutes] is not ours, but that of the living God and his Anointed, whom the Father has appointed King ..."
[Ibid, Page 10, Paragraph 2; pdf 18 of 944]
3. So convinced was John Calvin that God was the author of the doctrine he taught that at the end of his life he railed against the use of the term Calvinism as "no greater insult" and evidence of "a mortal hate" directed against him:
"The term 'Calvinist' appeared in 1552 in the writings of Joachim Westphal, a Lutheran pastor from Hamburg. Calvin was the first to deplore this term. He took exception to it in 1563 on the even of his death, in his Latin commentary on Jeremiah (1565 for the French version): 'They find no greater insult to attach to us ... than this word Calvinism, but it is not hard to conjecture where such a mortal hate as they have for me comes from." (John Calvin, Leçons ou commentaires et expositions sur les révélations du prophète Jeremie, 1565)
[Cottret, Bernard (22 May 2003). Calvin, A Biography. A&C Black. p. 239. ISBN 978-0-567-53035-6 - via Google Books.]
4. The immediate followers of John Calvin did not refer to themselves as Calvinists. In France, they were Hugeunots; in Scotland, they were Covenanteers; and in England, Holland and the New England colonies as Puritans. The Puritan state churches in the New England colonies were established with the title Congregational.
5. Only centuries after John Calvin's death did the followers of his teachings refer to themselves as Calvinists, but this was contrary to his last wishes due to the fact that Calvin remained firmly convinced to his death that he was merely the oracle by which God spoke to the world.
The answer of course is No!
What is true?
Well, with an argument like that, I'm surely convinced.
Calvinism is a consistently biblical doctrine 😏 So it is indeed true!
@@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023amen
@@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023100
Short answer, yes.
53:56 except everyone is his chosen people. That’s where your disconnect is.
God loved Jacob and hated Esau
@@garrettblalock5943 do you know who Esau and Jacob are though?
@@TheRomans9Guy of course. One was Gods chosen patriarch and the other was not.
@@garrettblalock5943 not in Romans 9:13, who do they represent to Paul in 9:13?
@@TheRomans9Guy “For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand -”
Romans 9:11 CSB
God chose one and not the other by His own righteous wisdom. Thus, election.
But doesn’t Calvinism remove the responsibility from the believer for their actions? Why strive towards righteousness if your fate is decided long before your birth.
To me, the book of James argues that salvation can be lost. There is a responsibility on the believer to keep their flesh in check, strive towards righteousness and to produce fruit out of love for God (not to earn salvation of course). Without that responsibility and obligation what’s the point of free will?
And just to clarify, I’m not saying that God can’t override free will, I’m saying he won’t in regards to salvation. It’s against His nature to force himself on anyone. If He did pick and choose from the beginning, what would be the point of the fall in the first place if there is not choice involved? He could have just made people saved from the beginning and withheld the option to fall. God gave us a choice to love Him and to love for him. That’s the point of the fall, that’s the need for Jesus if we choose to take advantage of that grace. Predestination, to me, removes the entire point of the cross.
I hope this scripture clears things up for you!
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
@@laurenferris2223 yes. I believe this scripture proves my point. We have a choice and a responsibility.
@@amandacase9826 I thought this scripture might help clear things up! Keep reading the Word for yourself, dear sister. Don't let other people tell you what it says. There is too much deception out there! God bless
Genuinely have been trying to figure this out! Specifically predestination. I agree that there is a lot of biblical evidence for it, but what is the point in evangelizing to people around the world? If they are already predestined? Could it be that God knows that believer “A” will one day talk to unbeliever “B” about the Gospel of Jesus, then the unbeliever believes at some point? But it was never a choice that they had? I genuinely want to understand and help others understand as well! God bless you and keep you!
That is a good question! God decided to use us in bringing His elect to salvation! Only He knows who the elect are, we do not. He commands us to preach the gospel to all people so that He will use the gospel, through us, to save His elect. Sorry it’s only a simple answer but hopefully it makes a bit more sense!
God uses means to bring about His will. In the same way He commands us to pray because He uses our prayers to bring about His will, He also uses us to bring the gospel to His elect :)
@@hollybooth6946 but with predestination you making the choice to go and preach is taking God's sovereignty out of His hands because if no one preached how will the word reach His elect, and why rely on people if He had another way? The God of Calvinism is unjust and unloving because He creates humans in His image predestined for eternal damnation and punishment. Calvinism and Islam are absolutely similar the only difference is Calvinism is trinitarian but the perniciousness and capriciousness is the same.
The church was predestined to be born. Romans 8-11. You will only come to Calvinism if it’s pushed at you. You won’t come to it from reading God’s word. No individual is predestined. Calvinism is false teaching. God does not look at everyone going to hell and arbitrarily choose to save some. In fact, scripture teaches He is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. It is simply impossible to believe God is love and Calvinism.
@@hollybooth6946how do you know you are elect hollybooth? Perhaps you are a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction and just think you have saving faith and will soon fall away?
Please do more
Need some more 🙏 please
According to Calvinism. Does God get/do everything He desires?
No. He desires things in different senses. He has a sovereign desire, which consists of those desires God brings about. Then he has a moral desire which are those things he desires but does not necessarily. bring about.
I have a serious question. How can God desire something but not get it?
@@lainie4344 He can just choose not to get it.
So we have no affect on Gods desires? So God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell based off His choice?
@@lainie4344 To say his choice is based off his choice is kind of a circular way to put it, but yes, I do think God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I'm not sure it's accurate to say we have no affect on God's desires. I think it would be more accurate to say we have no affect on God's desires that wasn't determined by God in the first place.