Coming from someone that's live in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Orlando, I can say with 100% confidence the White Sox and Brewers are way more popular in their current spots than they would be in Orlando.
@@chasbodaniels1744 in the Rays’ defense, I’m pretty sure a lot of that has to do with the fact that Tropicana field is in a terrible location (and isn’t even in Tampa) and also happens to be maybe the worst in the entire league.
I think another thing to consider is that the "markets" for each team aren't necessarily limited to the current metro area. I personally don't see Orlando getting a team in a league while Tampa Bay has one, and vice versa--the markets are too close together, and unless there are a LOT of fans of that particular sport in the area, they may not be big enough combined to support two teams the way that New York, LA, Washington/Baltimore, and Chicago can be. (Chicago metro area is 9.5 million; Tampa Bay and Orlando combined are just over 8 million.)
Wisconsin is actually an interesting example of why you can't go strictly by metro size. Yes Milwaukee is only the 39th largest metro area in the USA, but Wisconsin is the 21st most populated state. So its TV market isn't as bad as one would think. Plus many fans will drive across the state for Packers games and on the weekend for weekday Brewer games. Wisconsin's "real" population is actually also a bit higher because many in the state move to other states when they get older or get money, but retain their fan base. Many Packer fans show up to away games and watch the games out-of-sate. As for WI not having a hockey team...the real reason is Wisconsin lacks billionaires. Most of the uber rich live on the coast/south/west where there is less taxes and warmer weather. Show a map of billionaires on the US overlayed with expansion teams from the past three decades and you'll see a correlation. Expansion teams have little too do with popular demand. Lastly there is demographics. Places like NY and SW have a large immigrant community that isn't as into the major sports. That's why Rutgers despite being in New Jersey a very populated state and next to NY struggles to recruit football players. You just can't say that Texas has 2x more people so will have 2x more demand for sports team y.
Kyle, I’d love to see a college football version of this. I’m sure it would be a ton more nuanced but super interesting. It wouldn’t depend totally on markets, but more cultural and historical factors. For instance, somewhere like Tuscaloosa, AL would have a much bigger impact than New York. Just the wild world of college football. Anyways, great content as always.
@@davidsponcil8109 oh yeah! I'm in KC. I like to describe myself as a Wildcat stranded in Jayhawk Country. ;) While I support K-State in football, we get our butt whipped by KU in basketball. I saw a video of 70k people on Mass St after the game the other night! :)
From what I know, one of the biggest reasons why Milwaukee doesn't have an NHL team is due to no one being willing to provide the necessary funding to, well, fund a team, though Milwaukee does have a farm team for the Predators (Admirals). The other major roadblock is the Chicago Blackhawks' owners not wanting another professional team so close to them.
So glad to see you combined the Cincinnati and Dayton metros. As someone who has lived here most of my life, a ton of growth has happened to link them, and Daytonians frequently take the quick drive down I-75 for Reds, Bengals and FC Cincinnati games. Great video, Kyle!
I was actually wondering if people from that area look at it as 1, so indirectly thanks for the comment. I was also wondering Cleveland and Akron in OH, if locals refer to those as 1 area. I might be visiting this year to both
I’ve lived in both Cincy and Dayton, so I have a strong connection with both. Their growing together has been something I’ve been thinking about for decades after being obsessed with studying the area in maps as a kid. So I have my biases! But generally Dayton’s strongest growth has been to its southern suburbs, and Cincinnati to its northern suburbs - to the point that it’s hard to determine where one ends and the other begins. Springboro, for example is technically in the Cincy metro, at the northern end of Warren County, but if you ask the residents there 90% would say they live in Dayton. It’s a complicated area of the country, geographically. People in Northern Kentucky, the southern part in f the Cincy Metro, probably feel more pull toward Lexington and Louisville than they do to Dayton. And people in Springfield, north of Dayton, are closer to Columbus than they are to Cincy. So, it’s complicated! But leaders in both Dayton and Cincinnati are more and more selling the size, skills and value of the whole region, realizing the potential a combined metro brings. It’s a work in progress, but there’s no denying their move to grow together.
To answer your second question, NE Ohio is a more self-contained geography with Cleveland, Akron and Canton (and a lesser extent Youngstown), so it’s generally more accepted by locals as one large metro/region. (Even though there’s still strong loyalty to the individual cities; as LeBron James once famously noted that he’s from Akron, not Cleveland.)
@@MohondasK Cool, I know there's the official answer and then there's different people's views of it so I like to ask people who live there for their take. I like to do rankings and compare population sometimes so it can make a big difference. I'm originally from the SF Bay Area and officially San Francisco and San Jose are separate metros which I was surprised when I first learned that so I guessed similar things occur around the country
Kansas City's soccer team plays in the Kansas city, not the Missouri one. Likewise, perhaps SW Ohio's should play in Dayton. South Florida's pro,soccer has traditionally been in Fort Lauderdale, not Miami, and we all know where Wisconsin's NFL team is based.
A couple of notes: -You mentioned the Washington Commanders’ new name, but it is also worth noting that the Cleveland MLB team is now called the Guardians. -The WHA’s Winnipeg Jets would move to Phoenix and are now the Arizona Coyotes. The current Winnipeg Jets were relocated in 2011 from the Atlanta Thrashers. Great video, hope to see more sports maps in the future!
Also, you mentioned the San Diego Chargers moving to Los Angeles, and it is worth noting that they were the Los Angels Chargers before moving to San Diego.
As a Kansas City fan, this would truly be the darkest timeline. Although I think it would also be interesting looking at the market rating as some cities are more invested than others. So smaller market teams (NO, buffalo, KC) make up for the fact they have fewer people vs large markets that aren't as attached (LV, LA)
I always hear the common refrain that California and Florida teams don't draw nearly as well as other geographical areas because there are so many other options for outdoor entertainment. Not sure if this is true, but it's a common perception
LV is too soon to tell how they will do in terms of local support over the long-term. I think the Raiders will be fine thanks to the massive number if California transplants who live in Vegas. Golden Knights might struggle during performance dips since hockey isn't a default sports in the Nevada desert. People pick on LA because of the Rams and Chargers struggling to build up fan bases. To be fair, NFL idiotically abandoned LA for 3 decades, and then reappeared haphazardly with two teams. Very few cities in America could absorb 2 new pro teams in such a manner. The other LA-based teams have healthy fan bases (Lakers, Dodgers, LAFC. etc).
As a Buffalo resident and life-long Bills fan, I can confirm that even when the team missed the playoffs for 20 years in a row, they still regularly sold out the stadium. It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's genuinely true that many casual conversations between September and December end with the phrase "Go Bills" around here. ...Also, KC fan, eh? We'll get you guys next season! (Great game last time, though, eh?)
He’s also just looking at the metro area of that city. KC fans are spread out all through Kansas and into Missouri. As a KC fan in central Iowa I can confirm that the teams have a very large following up here as well.
I have never cared about sports, especially not football for a second in my life and probably will go on doing so. But I watched this entire video. Which is a very big plus for you as an educator, good on you.
Loved it! I like how you pointed out that the NBA was forward thinking to put the Suns in PHX based on that city's projected growth. Could you make another alternate series where instead of the leagues placing teams where large populations exist today, they are placed in cities that are projected to be large in 20-30 years? I'm guessing the rust belt will lose even more teams and the south and west would be jammed with competing sports markets.
As somebody who wasn’t old enough to have engaged with sports when the Sonics moved, I hope with the Kraken moving in and conversely the renovation of KeyArena (now Climate Pledge Arena) encourages an expansion back to Seattle. The sports market in the PNW just isn’t the same without one of the first teams in the area. Also interesting to note that Portland would be getting many a franchise in every league in the hypothetical in this video. The PDX and SEA team rivalries would be so fun to watch.
NBA have long wanted to place a team back in Seattle but you have to find the investors willing to do so. Grizzles are the only team close to relocating unless they can settle that lease agreement with Memphis
It seems like if teams were being thrown around today, Vancouver would be a good NBA city. It's too bad that the Grizzlies didn't last, and wild to think of there being three PNW teams for about five years.
I'm a long time follower, this might be one of your best. As someone from Wisconsin I wonder how much interest in sports (in non-winning teams) plays in to this. It's not all about population. Many fans stuck with our teams through the lean years.
When it comes to sports in central Florida, professional sports leagues settle for either Orlando or Tampa Bay, not both due to their proximity with each other.
Good job including Undertaker and Paul Bearer with the first two teams eliminated. Also with the teams in Vegas, I could see any team in Vegas doing a better job pulling tickets out of visitors to the city, or getting a fan of a visiting team to go, as an excuse to go to Vegas. So I think since Vegas' hub for tourism purely for entertainment could make for the most mutually beneficial relationship with its city of any US city, even if the locals don't care.
I think you're right on. People will plan a trip to Vegas around when their team plays there and spend money gambling while they are there. Living in San Diego, saw many games where the majority of the fans were from the visiting team, especially as it got closer to winter. A way to escape the cold and see your team play in a warm weather location.
Great video, being from Queens, NY I will say the Islanders have a very passionate fan base. Especially with suburban fans in Queens, Nassau and Suffolk counties on Long Island. There were a lot of angry and upset fans when they played in Brooklyn nevermind if the team moved or folded.
You are right. There are almost 8m people on Long Island (Kings, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk Counties), more than on all other US islands *combined*. Yes, including Puerto Rico. They are mocked, and almost as neglected as Upstaters. The one thing I hate about the team is the name. Yes, it looks classy, but they should never have been called anything but the Ducks, after the intensely-supported minor-league team there. Instead, Disney was able to scoop it up.
I'm a die hard Islanders fan, but after 1993 the team was the worst in hockey for a decade and the market almost lost the team on several occasions even up to a few years ago. The team moved to Brooklyn bc the Long Island market refused to pay for a stadium. Even today the new stadium is on the border of New York City, Citi Field is literally in New York City and the Jets don't even play in NY. Having said that, I would say that as passionate as the fans are, there's a good case to make for the Long Island market by itself not being able to support a pro team. So even without insider knowledge, Kyle made some very good assumptions based solely on data.
Many reasons we don't have an NHL team in Milwaukee. There's not enough support for the pro hockey team we already have - the Admirals. The market wouldn't be able to support both the NBA and NHL. There would likely be some resistance from the hated NHL franchise 90 miles south too. They seem to forget we hate Chicago teams in WI and feel we should care about them.
I don’t think geography is a factor for NHL anymore. A lot of old school fans refuse to believe it but the game has grown well in less traditional markets. Despite what you said Vegas and Nashville really stick out like a sore thumb. VGK being the growing city’s first pro teams it’s hard to see them lose support especially in a growing market and city.
Las Vegas is incredibly small. Sure, it's got over two million people in its metro, but it only has about 800,000 white people, which is the overwhelming core of support for hockey. Las Vegas may survive given all the tourists who may want to take in a game, but if it were a typical city, there is no way that the NHL would work long time there.
@@willp.8120 its spectacle that sells it also Vegas is a traveling hotspot and is growing. Its a great brand value for any franchise which maybe why the raiders move there as well. And I wouldn’t factor in race 😂 as long as the marketing is there and team is good it might make new fans regardless of what they are.
@@R2ROsanchez13 You have to consider race. Even in downtown Atlanta when the Thrashers were here, or the Gladiators in Gwinnett County now, the fans in attendance are about 98% white. Blacks and Hispanics are not hockey fans, by and large.
@@willp.8120 well im a Hispanic hockey fan myself . The sport obviously still has room to grow and teams in less traditional markets help bring in new demographics . Especially a place like Vegas since it was their first major pro sports team. That definitely got attention to people who wouldn’t otherwise care for hockey. Which is what the nhl wants.
The chargers started in Los Angeles, they played one season there in the early 60s, and they struggled to draw a crowd and make money. The city of San Diego offered them a extremely team friendly stadium lease and the rest is history. Also I wanna say while I get what your doing, some places just arnt interested in certain sports, Miami is a huge city, it has no problems supporting the heat and the dolphins, but the Marlins are one of the worst teams in terms of earning, same goes for Tampa, they support the bucs but the rays are the worst earning team in baseball, or Phoenix with the coyotes, or Seattle with the Sonics, or the Atlanta trashers disaster. On the inverse, a team like the Indiana pacers is relatively stable because Indiana has a basketball culture.
I agree. I was just going strictly by population for the sake of discussing which cities have fallen behind vs which have gained in relative importance over the past 50 years.
You have to keep in mind when talking about baseball in general is that they play so many games. The NFL plays only a handful of games and games are broadcast regionally or nationally. Quite different than MLB which has to fill a stadium every night or draw a TV audience nightly. Also when you are talking about the Tampa market you’re talking about a lot of retirees from the Northeast. They go to North in the summer and come back in the winter. The only time the Rays have a good crowd is when the Red Sox or Yankees are in town. (I am also deliberately ignoring the fact that the stadium is horrible, it’s in a horrible location, and it’s not very accessible.)
The Thrashers weren't a disaster in terms of attendance. Get the facts. The ownership group, Atlanta Spirit, sabotaged the team and sold it off for the relocation fee.
The Thrashers were the second team in Atlanta. It's kind of funny that in both cases, the team moved to Canada.. The first was the Flames. The Coyotes saga just seems to be dragging on. I don't know if it's stubbornness on the part of the League or what..
Go Gamecocks! Did you go to Carolina? I graduated in 2004, so we may have crossed paths. It is interesting you chose to eliminate the Blue Jackets in favor of new teams in Cincinnati and Cleveland. Isn't Columbus the largest city in Ohio? I guess the latter two Buckeye cities have larger metropolitan populations (Cincinnati/Dayton, Cleveland/Akron/Canton). I just discovered your channel a few weeks ago, and as a fellow geography nerd, it instantly became one of my favorites. Keep up the good work!
You broke my heart by kicking out the White Sox. If they didn't exist I would 100% NOT be a Cubs fan. I guess I'd have to go with the Tigers at that point. I grew up in the county in the Southwest corner of Michigan, which is Chicago sports territory, unlike most of the rest of the state. Most of the rest of Michigan is in the Detroit fandom, other than the UP for football. They're mostly Packers fans up there.
For the NBA, I would replace a Baltimore team with a team in Montreal, while keeping the Utah Jazz and the Sacramento Kings instead of having second teams in DFW and the SF Bay Area. For the NHL, I would have them start at 40 teams instead of 32, so they can have a large presence in both Canada and the USA. The 8 extra teams should be located in Houston, Austin, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Las Vegas, and Miami (the last 2 cities should not be eliminated).
Hockey in Vegas will do just fine with all the Canadians going there in the winter to escape the cold, gamble and to watch their team play because they couldn’t get tickets at their home arena in Canada.
Yup. Vegas is more than capable of supporting the Raiders & Knights long-term cos EVERYONE would quickly book a trip to watch game for 3 hours then have the entire weekend to screw around & gamble. The A's are inching closer to this reality of being a Vegas Athletics
Portland really needs another ball team. The last I checked, the city has over 600,000 and the CMSA is #19 with 3.3 million, so they're already larger than many areas with multiple teams, yet they only have 1 ball team, the Trailblazers. Besides being the world headquarters for Nike, they have a lot of football and baseball fans up there who could easily support an expansion team.
If you ever do a video on the geography of the MLS, I'd love to see how the location of the teams correlates to non-native or first generation American populations, since these are the folks who tend to be most passionate about the sport
That being said, I actually don't think that the non-natives and first generation Americans are the target demographic MLS should look for. Honestly I think it should be the urban/yuppie/city-dwelling hipsters which should be the target demographic. For instance take a look at Seattle, Portland, Houston, New York City, Chicago, and Dallas (Frisco). The Pacific Northwest is like the least diverse, least non-native portion of the country in my opinion and they sellout amazingly. While Houston, Dallas, Chicago and New York are all diverse populations with huge amounts of first generation and non-natives, yet continue to struggle with attendance (I know there are other factors in that). I guess I feel like those immigrant populations would tend to support the team they supported back home and their first-gen American kids would follow suit and support their parents team. Just my 2 cents.
@@willp.8120 this is true. Atlanta by far has the biggest support, but from what I’ve heard, that ATL United target it’s urban core young population, not the first gen Mexican/Haitian immigrants. So my point still stands, lol
@@calebjackson4110 I don't think they target the Millennial/Z liberal intown white population, that is primarily who likes the United and that is who supports them heavily. To be honest, I don't get the love affair with soccer they have, as it is quite boring to watch. Hockey is so much more fun to watch, and yet these liberals had no desire to see the Thrashers while they were here. The hockey fanbase is overwhelmingly conservative in comparison. The Mexicans tend to watch teams from the Mexican leagues on television, in my opinion.
The owner of the Boston Celtics swapped teams with the owner of the Buffalo Braves (crazy) and then moved the Braves to San Diego in 1978 and renamed them the Clippers. Named after the sail boats on San Diego Bay and Mission Bay in SD. Moved to LA in 1984. Stirling bought the Clippers in 1981 with the intention of moving team to LA even though he denied it. SD went from three pro teams in 1970 (Chargers, Padres, and Rockets) to one in 2022 (Padres). Ohh the pain !!
You may have forgotten to add that the Braves actually moved to San Diego first. That’s where they became the Clippers. They then moved to LA just a few years later.
I was born in 1970. It’s interesting to see how much the the leagues have changed. I, for one, don’t like how unbalanced the divisions in the NFL are geographically. I’d change a few teams, even if it means breaking up a few rivals. I’d move the Cowboys to the NFC South and move the Panthers to the NFC East. Then I’d move the Dolphins to the AFC South, the Colts to the AFC North, and the Ravens to the NFC East.
The Thunder never built a New Arena The Current Arena (I think PayCom is the sponsor now) was built in 2001 as the Ford Center, the new ownership group of the Sonics in the Mid 2000s under Clay Bennet were all Chesapeake Oil guys so they wanted to move the team to Oklahoma
The Dallas / Fort Worth metro area has approx. 49 cities of which 6 are in the top 100 largest in the US and several others are in the next 10 largest. Teams added in Fort Worth in any sport would have a hard time making it because of the grip the current teams have on the area. Back in 1963 there were 2 Pro football teams in the area. The Dallas Texans had to move to Kansas City and became the Chiefs because even at that time with a much weaker hold on the market the Cowboys held the market. Prying enough market away for a new team would be next to imposable. The same would be true in most markets with established teams unless the market has more the one now.
Milwakee don’t have an NHL team because of Bill Wertz the owner of the Blackhawks always blocked the attempts. He also kept Blackhawks home games off TV unless they sold out for years until he died and his son took over and almost immediately put the games back on TV
I still find myself surprised that Nashville has an NHL team, and it does feel a little out of place so far in the south, but it is cool, and i think people support them so hard because we just like having national teams and such. It like with the titans, they could have ended up in memphis, but the people in memphis weren't really fighting to have them, so they went to nashville, and the people there decided, you know what, even if theyre a very mediocre team most years, we're gonna support them because we're lucky to have a nationally known sports team. So nashville ends up supporting a lot more than one would think they would.
Memphis was never the final destination of the Oilers. People around Memphis knew that they weren't staying, so they felt little connection to the team. It's not like if they supported them they'd have ended up in Memphis, as Nashville was the destination, but they were using the Liberty Bowl until Nashville had a stadium. They even moved out of Memphis early because attendance was so bad and played a year at Vanderbilt's stadium before their stadium was completed. Memphis is very fortunate to even have the Grizzlies given the small size and no nearby cities to also pull from like New Orleans can from Baton Rouge.
The NHL's rival league, the WHA, didn't actually start playing until the fall of 1972. Which was also when the New York Islanders began play. The two facts are not entirely unrelated - Nassau Coliseum, the Islander's first home was newly built at the time, and the NHL's thinking was 'If we don't put a team in there, the WHA will, and we can't have that.' From this, the Islanders were born.
I'm not understanding the Wisconsin hate in this video. Only focusing on population is a narrow way to redistribute teams. As someone watching the Packers play the Chargers, I saw a good 30-40% of the fans in the stands be Cheeseheads since, surprise, a lot of Midwesterners have moved to LA (if you're young) and Phoenix or Florida (if you're older). I'd argue that the Green Bay Packers are more of an institution than a modern day football team with a history going back to 1919. They're the only team that's publicly owned AND plays their home games in one of the oldest stadiums still standing strong today. Is you're gonna get rid of the Packers, you need to do away with the Chicago Bears since they're just as old as the Packers...and their rivalry is the oldest in the NFL too. I also don't understand the Bucks disappearing but the Timberwolves staying...?!? The Bucks won the NBA Championship last year and, as a Minneapolitan, I can say that there are not that many people who watch Timberwolves games unless you're some kind of superfan... Also, the Brewers are beloved for the Sausage Races in their games alone and I'd love to visit Milwaukee and attend a game in the next year or two to experience them myself! This is a really interesting take, but, I'm not sure if I wanna diss my Wisconsin Born and Raised fiance by showing him this installment 😂🤣
gonna say wisconsin is more than milwaukee... the state functions as its market. can make similar arguments about indiana and kansas city (KS/NE/parts of IA & MO)
Fun analysis - I think one wild card factor is that a league might choose a smaller market if that market doesn't already have other professional sports teams. I assume that this is part of why the OKC Thunder makes sense. This could be a backward strategy though - professional sports teams from different sports within the same city can boost each other more rather than competing with each other, since they typically play during different times of the year. I like how for Pittsburgh, all of the pro sports teams wear the same colors. It helps to create more of college atmosphere surrounding all of the home teams, and I think it might contribute to more people supporting another local professional team, even in sports that they care less about.
Also with the NBA the Atlanta Hawks were the St Louis Hawks at one point. In fact we hold their only championship. Interesting how two of the NHL teams you would cut are in fact in the Stanley cup final this year. I like that St Louis would get two teams out of this but feel kind of bad for our sister city across the state.
This is true. Kansas City covers Missouri; Kansas; Iowa and Nebraska. The same goes for the Chicago teams within the Chicagoland area covering southern tip of Wisconsin; all of Illinois and western Indiana
Actually, it was because the Blackhawks owner blocked any potential installation of an NHL team with the Chicagoland area. The influence for NHL flowed into Milwaukee unlike the other 3 sports. Same reason why San Antonio can't nor will ever draw a team because Ol' Jerry Boy influences the entire Texas market (Houston got lucky by the McNairs) with his Cowboys
Milwaukee actually built an arena in 88' with hockey in mind, but the price tag for a team ended being almost 40% higher than previously thought. This resulted in decades of terrible sight lines for watching basketball. There have been rumors since that time that the Chicago Blackhawks would also require compensation from any potential Milwaukee team as a result of infringing on their current market.
I want to fight you over the Blue Jackets (kidding, of course). Columbus honestly wasn't much of a hockey town for a while and we nearly lost the team about 10-15 years ago, but it's really turned around and there's a ton of support for the team these days. I can't say about Cinci, but a lot of my family is from the Cleveland area and the town isn't really big on hockey. Who knows, though, if they were awarded the team over Cbus I'm sure they would have generated plenty of support eventually too. As a current Milwaukee resident, I would be beside myself if we got an NHL team. I'm under the impression that a big reason we don't is due to the close proximity to the Blackhawks franchise, plus the fact that there are a ton of Chicago transplants living in MKE who still root for the 'hawks. We do have an AHL team as well. However, the natural rivalry with the Blackhawks and Wild would be a ton of fun, and there is already a large hockey community here. I'd be first in line for season tickets for sure. Great video as always, Kyle!
🏀: You mentioned the WHA but not the ABA, which concentrated in smaller, basketball-mad markets. Salt Lake City got a team in 1970, and was the first ex-ABA city-- other than the league's four survivors-- to replace it with an NBA squad. SLC swiped an ABA team from Los Angeles, and San Antonio from Dallas, so size isn't everything!
Interesting analysis, however I definitely think there's more to consider than just population when doing this. Florida in particular has a lot of people but often struggles with attendance, especially in baseball and hockey. As pointed out the Florida Panthers just don't get a lot of support from the people of Miami, even when they are one of the best teams in the league like they have been the past couple years. Tampa seems to do better, but they are literally a dynastic team at the moment and it will be interesting to see if things dry up as they fade in the years to come. In baseball, both the Marlins and Rays have horrible attendance numbers, and that's fair enough for the Marlins but the Rays have consistently been one of the best teams in baseball for a long time and they get basically zero support. I don't follow basketball as closely but it feels like the Magic also have pretty limited support compared to the Heat, who in fairness have been a better team for most of their histories. It would be interesting to consider the cultural factors that lead to certain geographic areas giving their teams more support than others, which you did for hockey and warm-weather cities. I have to assume there are other factors at play at least explaining why the Florida baseball teams are so unpopular.
I enjoyed the video, but there's quite a few more important factors that play into sports markets than just the metro, leaving this video's premise lacking. 1. Sports markets cannot be limited to simply their one metro city. As you said, people can be "out in the sticks" and still love a big city's team. I went to school in Eastern Iowa. Everybody was either a Cards fan or Cubs fan- they were quite a far way from St Louis and Chicago! Another example might be the Packers. Although "technically" in the smallest metro in pro sports, the entire state of Wisconsin (as well as plenty of fans from out of state) are diehard cheeseheads, making the total fanbase much larger than just Green Bay. 2. As you seemed to allude to in your NHL section, certain sports markets will naturally gravitate towards certain sports. There's a reason the NHL has failed *twice* in Atlanta, yet thrives in much-smaller Pittsburgh or WAY-smaller Winnipeg. How hungry is this market for your particular sport? Certainly we can say while hockey thrives in Calgary, an MLS team might not fair so well. 3. A related point; sometimes sports markets get too competitive. The NBA is not present in smaller markets by accident- the NBA has realized they tend to do well in cities with little to no other sports competition. The NBA thrives in Salt Lake. Many sports journalists cite Louisville (a very small metro!) as a great potential NBA expansion city, due to both this point and my point #2. There are other minor squabbles, but I'll limit it to those 3 haha.
Listen, I'll explain to you why the NHL "failed" in Atlanta. None of which had anything to do with attendance. Atlanta Flames. The Flames could have easily stayed in Atlanta, it's just that the owner, Tom Cousins, a real estate developer in Atlanta got into financial troubles with his real estate business when the recession of the late 1970s came on that threatened to bankrupt him. As a result, he put the Flames up for sale, as it was an asset that would keep his real estate business afloat if he sold it. Being that he wanted the most money, he sold to some individuals who wanted to take the team to Calgary, despite having multiple offers from potential local owners in Atlanta. The relocation of the Flames had nothing to do with hockey not being able to work in this market. Atlanta Thrashers The Thrashers left on account of some unfortunate circumstances, as well as an ownership group who sabotaged the team. Ted Turner was the owner of the Thrashers for about the first five years of their existence. Turner's media conglomerate merged with Time Warner in the early 2000s. When this happened, Time Warner became owners of both the Thrashers and Hawks, considering that both were owned by Ted Turner. Time Warner had this hair-brained idea and lack of foresight to merge with America Online (AOL) in 2004 or so (even though AOL had begun losing market share and it was clearly not going to be the future of the Internet). Not long after, the stocks of AOL-Time Warner (the new company name) started dropping as people were ditching AOL for new cable Internet. In order to gain greater capital in an attempt to strengthen the company's earnings, AOL-Time Warner put the sports franchises of the Thrashers and the Hawks up for sale. They wanted a quick sale to offset their massive company losses. In order to sell off both franchises as quickly as possible, they decided to sell both teams and the rights to Philips Arena as a PACKAGE DEAL. This means that a potential owner would own both franchises and the rights to the arena. This package deal was a bad idea, and it is why the Thrashers are no longer in Atlanta. You see, by bundling a basketball team with a hockey team, you got potential owners who could want a basketball team, but not care about hockey, but buy both in order to get a basketball team. That is exactly what happened. A group known as Atlanta Spirit Group, a group of businessmen from all over the country (most seemed to be from out of state), wanted to own a basketball team. They liked the idea of owning the Atlanta Hawks, but they did not want the Atlanta Thrashers. However, since it was a package deal, they had the idea that they'd go ahead and buy both teams and had plans to turn around and sell the Thrashers quickly after acquiring the teams. This quick sale did not take place, however, because one of the owners of the many actually liked hockey and wanted to keep the Thrashers. The owners who wanted to sell the team decided to sue the owner who wanted to keep the team. This resulted in a years-long drawn out legal action in which the ownership group became nearly insolvent from all the expenses involved in litigation. What's more, Atlanta Spirit Group also was irresponsible with money in that they offered ridiculous contracts for players on the Hawks which sucked up much of their available money after lawsuit expenses were considered. This meant that there was a lot less income for the Thrashers, and in order to offset the losses from their own mismanagement, they traded off most of the Thrashers good players. This had a lot to do with the Thrashers dismal performance on the ice. Once the lawsuits had worked their way through the court system, it was established that Atlanta Spirit Group would be able to sell the Thrashers. Now what I am about to tell you is why it has been said that Atlanta Spirit Group sabotaged the Thrashers. Atlanta Spirit Group only wanted the Hawks, as I have already pointed out. They also did not want the Thrashers sharing Philips Arena with the Hawks with a different owner. As a result, when they put the team up for sale, there were stipulations that thwarted any potential local buyers. You see, Atlanta Spirit made it where any new owner of the Thrashers would not have access to revenue generated by food sales or parking. The only income they could get would come through ticket sales, which was not enough to make the franchise successful. Plus, Atlanta Spirit expected the hockey owner to PAY them to use Philips Arena, considering that they owned the rights to the arena. Thus, with no probable successful revenue stream possible, along with what amounts to a fee for the use of the arena, no local buyers could take the risk. Anyone who wanted to keep the team in Atlanta couldn't take the risk, considering that Philips Arena was the only arena suitable to the NHL at the time for NHL hockey. The Gwinnett arena up in the suburbs where the ECHL Gwinnett Gladiators (now known as the Atlanta Gladiators) played was considered to be too small, so potential owners were not allowed to have the team play in the Gwinnett arena. What's ironic about this, however, is that the Gwinnett Arena was about the same size in terms of seating as the arena in Winnipeg, of which the league let slide. Furthermore, if the sale of the Thrashers had occurred two years later, the league became more lax in arena sizes for temporary locations, and it would have been a possibility, but not in 2011. Others have also stated that Atlanta Spirit wanted the relocation fee, and they had no true intention of keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta, as they would gain a lot more in a sale resulting in relocation than keeping the team in Atlanta. As a result, they made it difficult for any buyers to keep the team here through their stipulations, and they quickly sold off the team to True Sports North in a manner of a couple months. True Sports North had been trying to get the original Winnipeg Jets, known as the Phoenix Coyotes at the time, to return to Winnipeg, but the city of Glendale, Arizona coughed up the money to keep the team there. As a result, they then sought out the Thrashers, the only team up for sale. The Thrashers relocation had nothing to do with Atlanta not being suitable for the NHL. Atlanta was never last in attendance, and had higher attendance than Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston at times. Atlanta outsold Phoenix and the NY Islanders practically every season. To think that hockey doesn't work here with a metro population at about 6.2 million, but to probably think it works in Nashville and Las Vegas with populations around 2 million, a third the size, is a little strange. Furthermore, the Braves are third in attendance in MLB this year. The United are first in MLS attendance. The Falcons were middle of the pack attendance. Atlanta is a good sports town for hockey, but because we have unfortunately lost two NHL teams, there's this false idea that the area must not work with hockey, which isn't true.
With regard to your first point, my wife's family is from SE Illinois. Due to its particular location, there's no shortage of baseball as the area has fans of three different major league teams: the Cubs, the Cardinals, and the Reds (the town is just as far from Cincy as it is from Chicago). The radio stations carry all three teams' games, schedules permitting.
I wonder what metro areas care the most (per Capita) about sports and which care the least. It'd be interesting to compare qualities of the sports fans in different cities. Living in DC and I can tell you we have a very weak interest in sports here.
I have actually looked into this at times. From what I've seen, the eight most passionate markets with at least two teams would be Boston, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Milwaukee (and Green Bay), New Orleans, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh. The two least passionate by far would be Miami and Washington, D.C.
@@davezarvan Oh cool. That'd make sense to me. I can't even tell you how disappointed everyone here was when they announced "The Commanders" as the new name for the WFT. My partner and I were personally hoping for "The Washington Department of Football" haha. I'm surprised Kyle said he likes the name in his video lol. But regardless, I don't think I know a single person who plans on going to any of their games anyways.
@@treyshaffer What Dan Snyder has done to the Redskins/WFT/Commanders is disgusting, and Bruce Allen did quite a lot of damage as well. It is embarrassing what that once proud franchise has become. Also, were there worse names than Commanders? Yes. But there were certainly many more better options than that. Empty stadiums (less than 20% full) might be the only wakeup call for Snyder. My guess as to why Miami and Washington have the least passionate fan bases is that many residents in those areas are not originally from there. Many government people move to the D.C. area and lots of snowbirds live in South Florida. I think teams in Tampa Bay would have less passion if they weren't as successful recently as well.
Houston Rockets seems so natural that I never would have expected thar name to not be founded there - Space City. It couldn't have worked out worse for the New Orleans Jazz or Los Angeles Lakers.
For many hot as can be cities like Dallas, Phoenix and Vegas or very humid like Nashville or Charlotte, the invention and roll out of central AC is often said to be the reason for the tremendous population growth as well as many companies moving to those cities.
I live in Iowa, not sure how far Minneapolis / St Paul are, but think I'm just about center of Chicago, St Louis and Kansas City, with the Cubs who's MLB team, my area has been assigned, they now are on Marquee Channel, one I have to use cable to receive, and not on either satellite company, I just can not justify the extra monthly expense to use my monopolized cable company, which does cable and telephone (with a terrible local calling area) I'll miss you CUBS.
They certainly would draw more with a new stadium, whether in TB or Orlando. Couldn’t draw any fewer than they do now with that soulless monstrosity in St. Petersburg.
Havana has a huge baseball stadium that would be perfect for the Rays. The Rays dont draw more than 20,000, even when they have the best record in MLB! That's sad.
I do think there’s value to these teams in being the ONLY pro team in a small market. The Thunder are the only pro sports team in the whole state, so they have a level of local pride and statewide loyalty and reach that teams in Houston or DFW can’t match, because those cities have 5 local major pro teams each
Interesting video but it ignores a huge thing, which is why my old home of PDX has trouble getting teams: Corporate dollars. Teams make their revenue off tv, sponsorship, and selling those corporate skyboxes. PDX just doesn't have enough big money corps
Great video Gegraphy King! Curious if you were commisioner of these leagues, how seriously would you consider expanding into Canada for new/expansion teams? ( New NFL team in Toronto / MLB team in Montreal/ Vancouver)
I'm not sure about baseball popularity in Vancouver but Montreal has been on the list for possible expansion for a while. This video was about population but the reality is that cities that build stadiums and arenas with tax dollars usually get the teams. If Montreal built a taxpayer funded stadium I'd bet MLB would expand overnight. The NHL didn't decide to expand to Seattle until after arena funding was secured. I doubt NFL expansion for Toronto but maybe a possibility Buffalo Bills move to southern Ontario? Joint stadium for TigerCats and Bills? But it always comes down to money and not passionate fan bases.
There was a big thing in the 90s about the possibility of Toronto getting into the NFL.. Politicians worried about the CFL tried to make it difficult at each turn. The Bills did play a few games in Toronto, but weren't very successful. I think part of it was pricing and other marketing screwups. Plus, Rogers Centre has been converted more to baseball only. The Argos play at BMO Field along with TFC. I could see maybe alterations to Tim Horton's field in Hamilton as mentioned in a joint venture with the Ti-Cats. Draw from the full southern Ontario crowd.
Love the NHL photo of Bobby Orr going airborne after his Stanley Cup winnah! Remember it well. A comment or two about the Florida Panthers and their lack of support. Their home rink is practically in the middle of nowhere, closer to the Everglades than any South Florida city (well, Sunrise is close). Also, given the population of South Florida, they tend to get more supporters of the visiting team than the home crew, especially when one of the "Original Six" teams is in town.
Surprised you'd keep the Coyotes around. I know Phoenix is a top 10 metro area, but seeing as you said you put more emphasis on geography than population outright in the NHL reshuffle, I can't see how a team that can't fill a college stadium could possibly be viable
Why is Pittsburgh any more deserving of a baseball team than Charlotte, which is LARGER now than Pittsburgh. What about Raleigh, or Nashville, or Orlando? Why are there so many teams up north, but so few down South, despite larger populations down South?
@@willp.8120 Yes, Charlotte may be larger than Pittsburgh, as it has gained a lot of population recently as have other southern cities. It would be great to have MLB teams in other southern cities like the ones you mentioned. I'm not super excited about the idea of an MLB team in Orlando, just because Florida already has the Marlins and Rays. Nashville and Charlotte would be good spots for a team, I think. To answer your question about why there are so many teams in the north, and not so many in the south - I think it just has to do with the history of population in the United States, and the history of the teams in some of those older cities like Pittsburgh. There's been a lot of migration away from the rust belt towards the south, so maybe the expansion of teams just hasn't caught up.
This was a great video, as always.... but... There's more nuance than just which metros are the largest. For instance, I would argue that the NHL is better off having the only pro sports team in the city of Raleigh than it would be for an NHL team to be lost in the shuffle of 3-4 pro sports teams in Charlotte. It is also worth considering not just how many people live in a metro, but how many people support the team. There are more people supporting the Royals in decidedly smaller Kansas City than there are people supporting the Rays (or Marlins, for that matter) in larger Tampa or Miami. Finally, (and this part feels gross to say) corporate sponsorships factor in, too. A slightly smaller but higher income metro with multiple corporations present may be able to support a pro sports franchise better than a slightly larger one.
There's definitely more to markets than population, I just wanted to highlight cities that are now major powerhouses that weren't when the leagues were formed and which cities have lost ground in the last 50 years.
In terms of being a sports fan, are you an eye test guy, or analytics guy? This video supports the idea you like analytics. You definitely did your research with the data you provided
I think you missed the point of the Las Vegas Knights. What the NHL is counting on, and correctly so so far, is that each NHL franchise, especially the ones from the North and Northeast, sponsor 'Vegas travel packages' for their fans when the local team is playing in Las Vegas. Gamble away the mortgage for three days with discounted airfare and hotel, and oh, in the mean time you get to watch the Blackhawks, Red Wings, Blues, etc. play the Knights. So even if the Vegas season ticket fan base isn't as large as most other franchises, every weekend all season might theoretically feature a weekend package involving the visiting team's fans. The balance of the arena might have a higher percentage of visiting fans than would be normal at a sporting event, but long-term it works because it doesn't rely as strongly on the current performance of the home team and fair-weather fans. Of course the Knights are still in their honeymoon period, but so far it's working. in their inaugural season, 2017-18, they filled up the arena and finished in the top third of league attendance and have ever since. Have to throw out 2020-21 because of the Chinese virus, but this season, even though they are having a mediocre year (wouldn't be in the playoffs if they started today), they are 6th in league attendance. Short answer: don't worry about the Knights.
Vegas, I think the rules are different. Vegas can probably pick up decent money from away team fan bases via tickets simply based on how much Vegas caters to tourism
The 1970 list is metro areas and the 2020 is combined metro areas, these can be very different. Dallas-Fort Worth still has less population than Chicago and would not be able to support a MLB team in Fort Worth. The south side of Chicago still supports bad White Sox teams.
Coming from someone that's live in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Orlando, I can say with 100% confidence the White Sox and Brewers are way more popular in their current spots than they would be in Orlando.
Sounds about right, especially if you consider the woeful attendance figures for the Miami Marlins and TB Rays.
Yeah, the people with the most money in Florida don't actually live there during most of baseball season!
@@chasbodaniels1744 in the Rays’ defense, I’m pretty sure a lot of that has to do with the fact that Tropicana field is in a terrible location (and isn’t even in Tampa) and also happens to be maybe the worst in the entire league.
@@Alex-kd5xc Sure, the Trop is a dreary monstrosity. The Rays themselves do an amazing job of putting very competitive teams on the field.
I think another thing to consider is that the "markets" for each team aren't necessarily limited to the current metro area. I personally don't see Orlando getting a team in a league while Tampa Bay has one, and vice versa--the markets are too close together, and unless there are a LOT of fans of that particular sport in the area, they may not be big enough combined to support two teams the way that New York, LA, Washington/Baltimore, and Chicago can be. (Chicago metro area is 9.5 million; Tampa Bay and Orlando combined are just over 8 million.)
Wisconsin is actually an interesting example of why you can't go strictly by metro size. Yes Milwaukee is only the 39th largest metro area in the USA, but Wisconsin is the 21st most populated state. So its TV market isn't as bad as one would think. Plus many fans will drive across the state for Packers games and on the weekend for weekday Brewer games. Wisconsin's "real" population is actually also a bit higher because many in the state move to other states when they get older or get money, but retain their fan base. Many Packer fans show up to away games and watch the games out-of-sate. As for WI not having a hockey team...the real reason is Wisconsin lacks billionaires. Most of the uber rich live on the coast/south/west where there is less taxes and warmer weather. Show a map of billionaires on the US overlayed with expansion teams from the past three decades and you'll see a correlation. Expansion teams have little too do with popular demand. Lastly there is demographics. Places like NY and SW have a large immigrant community that isn't as into the major sports. That's why Rutgers despite being in New Jersey a very populated state and next to NY struggles to recruit football players. You just can't say that Texas has 2x more people so will have 2x more demand for sports team y.
Being a White Sox fan in Chicago, this team means so much more to south siders and others from the city. It is basically an identity at this point.
Kyle,
I’d love to see a college football version of this. I’m sure it would be a ton more nuanced but super interesting. It wouldn’t depend totally on markets, but more cultural and historical factors. For instance, somewhere like Tuscaloosa, AL would have a much bigger impact than New York. Just the wild world of college football. Anyways, great content as always.
College basketball too!
The most natural geography based video on college football is conference re-alignment, I'd be curious to hear Kyle's take on that
@@davidsponcil8109 oh yeah!
I'm in KC. I like to describe myself as a Wildcat stranded in Jayhawk Country. ;)
While I support K-State in football, we get our butt whipped by KU in basketball. I saw a video of 70k people on Mass St after the game the other night! :)
One of my favorite college courses at Oklahoma State University was ‘Geography of Sport’ taught by Dr. John Rooney. Thanks for this video!
I bet that would be super interesting!
Go pokes!
Wish my university had a class like that!
Damn wish I found that class when filling out my electives lol
Go Pokes!
From what I know, one of the biggest reasons why Milwaukee doesn't have an NHL team is due to no one being willing to provide the necessary funding to, well, fund a team, though Milwaukee does have a farm team for the Predators (Admirals). The other major roadblock is the Chicago Blackhawks' owners not wanting another professional team so close to them.
So glad to see you combined the Cincinnati and Dayton metros. As someone who has lived here most of my life, a ton of growth has happened to link them, and Daytonians frequently take the quick drive down I-75 for Reds, Bengals and FC Cincinnati games. Great video, Kyle!
I was actually wondering if people from that area look at it as 1, so indirectly thanks for the comment. I was also wondering Cleveland and Akron in OH, if locals refer to those as 1 area. I might be visiting this year to both
I’ve lived in both Cincy and Dayton, so I have a strong connection with both. Their growing together has been something I’ve been thinking about for decades after being obsessed with studying the area in maps as a kid. So I have my biases! But generally Dayton’s strongest growth has been to its southern suburbs, and Cincinnati to its northern suburbs - to the point that it’s hard to determine where one ends and the other begins. Springboro, for example is technically in the Cincy metro, at the northern end of Warren County, but if you ask the residents there 90% would say they live in Dayton. It’s a complicated area of the country, geographically. People in Northern Kentucky, the southern part in f the Cincy Metro, probably feel more pull toward Lexington and Louisville than they do to Dayton. And people in Springfield, north of Dayton, are closer to Columbus than they are to Cincy. So, it’s complicated! But leaders in both Dayton and Cincinnati are more and more selling the size, skills and value of the whole region, realizing the potential a combined metro brings. It’s a work in progress, but there’s no denying their move to grow together.
To answer your second question, NE Ohio is a more self-contained geography with Cleveland, Akron and Canton (and a lesser extent Youngstown), so it’s generally more accepted by locals as one large metro/region. (Even though there’s still strong loyalty to the individual cities; as LeBron James once famously noted that he’s from Akron, not Cleveland.)
@@MohondasK Cool, I know there's the official answer and then there's different people's views of it so I like to ask people who live there for their take. I like to do rankings and compare population sometimes so it can make a big difference. I'm originally from the SF Bay Area and officially San Francisco and San Jose are separate metros which I was surprised when I first learned that so I guessed similar things occur around the country
Kansas City's soccer team plays in the Kansas city, not the Missouri one. Likewise, perhaps SW Ohio's should play in Dayton. South Florida's pro,soccer has traditionally been in Fort Lauderdale, not Miami, and we all know where Wisconsin's NFL team is based.
Part 1 is one of my favourite videos by Kyle. Hoping he can make some more sports geography videos in the future!
A couple of notes:
-You mentioned the Washington Commanders’ new name, but it is also worth noting that the Cleveland MLB team is now called the Guardians.
-The WHA’s Winnipeg Jets would move to Phoenix and are now the Arizona Coyotes. The current Winnipeg Jets were relocated in 2011 from the Atlanta Thrashers.
Great video, hope to see more sports maps in the future!
Damn bro ur annoying as hell
Also, you mentioned the San Diego Chargers moving to Los Angeles, and it is worth noting that they were the Los Angels Chargers before moving to San Diego.
As a Kansas City fan, this would truly be the darkest timeline. Although I think it would also be interesting looking at the market rating as some cities are more invested than others. So smaller market teams (NO, buffalo, KC) make up for the fact they have fewer people vs large markets that aren't as attached (LV, LA)
I always hear the common refrain that California and Florida teams don't draw nearly as well as other geographical areas because there are so many other options for outdoor entertainment. Not sure if this is true, but it's a common perception
LV is too soon to tell how they will do in terms of local support over the long-term. I think the Raiders will be fine thanks to the massive number if California transplants who live in Vegas. Golden Knights might struggle during performance dips since hockey isn't a default sports in the Nevada desert.
People pick on LA because of the Rams and Chargers struggling to build up fan bases. To be fair, NFL idiotically abandoned LA for 3 decades, and then reappeared haphazardly with two teams. Very few cities in America could absorb 2 new pro teams in such a manner. The other LA-based teams have healthy fan bases (Lakers, Dodgers, LAFC. etc).
@@chebemchukwu4481 Green Bay is NEVER moving, they're owned in a way that they can't.
As a Buffalo resident and life-long Bills fan, I can confirm that even when the team missed the playoffs for 20 years in a row, they still regularly sold out the stadium. It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's genuinely true that many casual conversations between September and December end with the phrase "Go Bills" around here. ...Also, KC fan, eh? We'll get you guys next season! (Great game last time, though, eh?)
He’s also just looking at the metro area of that city. KC fans are spread out all through Kansas and into Missouri. As a KC fan in central Iowa I can confirm that the teams have a very large following up here as well.
I have never cared about sports, especially not football for a second in my life and probably will go on doing so.
But I watched this entire video. Which is a very big plus for you as an educator, good on you.
Same boat as you!
Loved it! I like how you pointed out that the NBA was forward thinking to put the Suns in PHX based on that city's projected growth. Could you make another alternate series where instead of the leagues placing teams where large populations exist today, they are placed in cities that are projected to be large in 20-30 years? I'm guessing the rust belt will lose even more teams and the south and west would be jammed with competing sports markets.
Love this series! Keep up the great work
As somebody who wasn’t old enough to have engaged with sports when the Sonics moved, I hope with the Kraken moving in and conversely the renovation of KeyArena (now Climate Pledge Arena) encourages an expansion back to Seattle. The sports market in the PNW just isn’t the same without one of the first teams in the area. Also interesting to note that Portland would be getting many a franchise in every league in the hypothetical in this video. The PDX and SEA team rivalries would be so fun to watch.
NBA have long wanted to place a team back in Seattle but you have to find the investors willing to do so.
Grizzles are the only team close to relocating unless they can settle that lease agreement with Memphis
It seems like if teams were being thrown around today, Vancouver would be a good NBA city. It's too bad that the Grizzlies didn't last, and wild to think of there being three PNW teams for about five years.
The fact that Milwaukee recently got a new basketball arena and won the NBA championship means that they actually can support major league teams.
I'm a long time follower, this might be one of your best. As someone from Wisconsin I wonder how much interest in sports (in non-winning teams) plays in to this. It's not all about population. Many fans stuck with our teams through the lean years.
I agree. If the fanbase hadn't been so supportive, Green Bay wouldn't still have its football team.
The biggest jump on the list was Orlando, moving to sub-top 50 in 1970 to #18 in 2020. It's amazing what a little Disney magic can do.
...and Universal Studios, Sea World, etc.
And close behind is Charlotte moving from sub-top 50 to #23 in 2020.
When it comes to sports in central Florida, professional sports leagues settle for either Orlando or Tampa Bay, not both due to their proximity with each other.
This topic is definitely going to spark some debate.
In Vancouver everyone is still mad that we lost our NBA team even though it was 20 years ago that we lost them.
Good job including Undertaker and Paul Bearer with the first two teams eliminated. Also with the teams in Vegas, I could see any team in Vegas doing a better job pulling tickets out of visitors to the city, or getting a fan of a visiting team to go, as an excuse to go to Vegas. So I think since Vegas' hub for tourism purely for entertainment could make for the most mutually beneficial relationship with its city of any US city, even if the locals don't care.
I think you're right on. People will plan a trip to Vegas around when their team plays there and spend money gambling while they are there. Living in San Diego, saw many games where the majority of the fans were from the visiting team, especially as it got closer to winter. A way to escape the cold and see your team play in a warm weather location.
Dude, this is so sick, your original sports market video is my favorite video of yours, this is awesome🙌
Great video, being from Queens, NY I will say the Islanders have a very passionate fan base. Especially with suburban fans in Queens, Nassau and Suffolk counties on Long Island. There were a lot of angry and upset fans when they played in Brooklyn nevermind if the team moved or folded.
You are right. There are almost 8m people on Long Island (Kings, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk Counties), more than on all other US islands *combined*. Yes, including Puerto Rico. They are mocked, and almost as neglected as Upstaters.
The one thing I hate about the team is the name. Yes, it looks classy, but they should never have been called anything but the Ducks, after the intensely-supported minor-league team there. Instead, Disney was able to scoop it up.
I'm a die hard Islanders fan, but after 1993 the team was the worst in hockey for a decade and the market almost lost the team on several occasions even up to a few years ago. The team moved to Brooklyn bc the Long Island market refused to pay for a stadium. Even today the new stadium is on the border of New York City, Citi Field is literally in New York City and the Jets don't even play in NY. Having said that, I would say that as passionate as the fans are, there's a good case to make for the Long Island market by itself not being able to support a pro team. So even without insider knowledge, Kyle made some very good assumptions based solely on data.
Love these videos combining two of my favorite things, sports and geography. Some fun hypotheticals in this one!
Many reasons we don't have an NHL team in Milwaukee. There's not enough support for the pro hockey team we already have - the Admirals. The market wouldn't be able to support both the NBA and NHL. There would likely be some resistance from the hated NHL franchise 90 miles south too. They seem to forget we hate Chicago teams in WI and feel we should care about them.
Florida Panthers are playing well right now & they're drawing huge crowds now.
I was born raised and still live in Miami. It is hard to root for a hockey team(Florida panthers) when you have never seen snow.
I don’t think geography is a factor for NHL anymore. A lot of old school fans refuse to believe it but the game has grown well in less traditional markets. Despite what you said Vegas and Nashville really stick out like a sore thumb. VGK being the growing city’s first pro teams it’s hard to see them lose support especially in a growing market and city.
Las Vegas is incredibly small. Sure, it's got over two million people in its metro, but it only has about 800,000 white people, which is the overwhelming core of support for hockey. Las Vegas may survive given all the tourists who may want to take in a game, but if it were a typical city, there is no way that the NHL would work long time there.
@@willp.8120 its spectacle that sells it also Vegas is a traveling hotspot and is growing. Its a great brand value for any franchise which maybe why the raiders move there as well. And I wouldn’t factor in race 😂 as long as the marketing is there and team is good it might make new fans regardless of what they are.
@@R2ROsanchez13 You have to consider race. Even in downtown Atlanta when the Thrashers were here, or the Gladiators in Gwinnett County now, the fans in attendance are about 98% white. Blacks and Hispanics are not hockey fans, by and large.
@@willp.8120 well im a Hispanic hockey fan myself . The sport obviously still has room to grow and teams in less traditional markets help bring in new demographics . Especially a place like Vegas since it was their first major pro sports team. That definitely got attention to people who wouldn’t otherwise care for hockey. Which is what the nhl wants.
The chargers started in Los Angeles, they played one season there in the early 60s, and they struggled to draw a crowd and make money. The city of San Diego offered them a extremely team friendly stadium lease and the rest is history.
Also I wanna say while I get what your doing, some places just arnt interested in certain sports, Miami is a huge city, it has no problems supporting the heat and the dolphins, but the Marlins are one of the worst teams in terms of earning, same goes for Tampa, they support the bucs but the rays are the worst earning team in baseball, or Phoenix with the coyotes, or Seattle with the Sonics, or the Atlanta trashers disaster. On the inverse, a team like the Indiana pacers is relatively stable because Indiana has a basketball culture.
I agree. I was just going strictly by population for the sake of discussing which cities have fallen behind vs which have gained in relative importance over the past 50 years.
You have to keep in mind when talking about baseball in general is that they play so many games. The NFL plays only a handful of games and games are broadcast regionally or nationally. Quite different than MLB which has to fill a stadium every night or draw a TV audience nightly.
Also when you are talking about the Tampa market you’re talking about a lot of retirees from the Northeast. They go to North in the summer and come back in the winter. The only time the Rays have a good crowd is when the Red Sox or Yankees are in town.
(I am also deliberately ignoring the fact that the stadium is horrible, it’s in a horrible location, and it’s not very accessible.)
The Thrashers weren't a disaster in terms of attendance. Get the facts. The ownership group, Atlanta Spirit, sabotaged the team and sold it off for the relocation fee.
Well for the record, the sonics move had nothing to do with lack of support or money generated by the team, it was all about politics and greed
The Thrashers were the second team in Atlanta. It's kind of funny that in both cases, the team moved to Canada.. The first was the Flames.
The Coyotes saga just seems to be dragging on. I don't know if it's stubbornness on the part of the League or what..
As a lifelong Seattle-ite, seeing 'Seattle SuperThunder' makes me sick and sad.
I still can't wrap my mind around a universe where the Arizona Coyotes exist but the New York Islanders do not.
Just doesn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense why Bettman is trying his hardest to keep the Coyotes in the desert 🤦
Can't get enough of this stuff. I hope my students find me as endearing as people find you.
Go Gamecocks! Did you go to Carolina? I graduated in 2004, so we may have crossed paths. It is interesting you chose to eliminate the Blue Jackets in favor of new teams in Cincinnati and Cleveland. Isn't Columbus the largest city in Ohio? I guess the latter two Buckeye cities have larger metropolitan populations (Cincinnati/Dayton, Cleveland/Akron/Canton).
I just discovered your channel a few weeks ago, and as a fellow geography nerd, it instantly became one of my favorites. Keep up the good work!
Just started the video but love that you are rocking a Gamecocks shirt!
Hanford and Lemoore hold special places in my heart so for that reason alone, I think it's awesome that you're from Visalia! I love the channel GK!!!
You broke my heart by kicking out the White Sox. If they didn't exist I would 100% NOT be a Cubs fan. I guess I'd have to go with the Tigers at that point. I grew up in the county in the Southwest corner of Michigan, which is Chicago sports territory, unlike most of the rest of the state. Most of the rest of Michigan is in the Detroit fandom, other than the UP for football. They're mostly Packers fans up there.
For the NBA, I would replace a Baltimore team with a team in Montreal, while keeping the Utah Jazz and the Sacramento Kings instead of having second teams in DFW and the SF Bay Area.
For the NHL, I would have them start at 40 teams instead of 32, so they can have a large presence in both Canada and the USA. The 8 extra teams should be located in Houston, Austin, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Las Vegas, and Miami (the last 2 cities should not be eliminated).
Hockey in Vegas will do just fine with all the Canadians going there in the winter to escape the cold, gamble and to watch their team play because they couldn’t get tickets at their home arena in Canada.
Yup. Vegas is more than capable of supporting the Raiders & Knights long-term cos EVERYONE would quickly book a trip to watch game for 3 hours then have the entire weekend to screw around & gamble.
The A's are inching closer to this reality of being a Vegas Athletics
Portland really needs another ball team. The last I checked, the city has over 600,000 and the CMSA is #19 with 3.3 million, so they're already larger than many areas with multiple teams, yet they only have 1 ball team, the Trailblazers. Besides being the world headquarters for Nike, they have a lot of football and baseball fans up there who could easily support an expansion team.
Portland has MLS too
First video of yours I ever watched was part one of this series. Love it! Keep up the great work Kyle!
If you ever do a video on the geography of the MLS, I'd love to see how the location of the teams correlates to non-native or first generation American populations, since these are the folks who tend to be most passionate about the sport
That being said, I actually don't think that the non-natives and first generation Americans are the target demographic MLS should look for. Honestly I think it should be the urban/yuppie/city-dwelling hipsters which should be the target demographic. For instance take a look at Seattle, Portland, Houston, New York City, Chicago, and Dallas (Frisco). The Pacific Northwest is like the least diverse, least non-native portion of the country in my opinion and they sellout amazingly. While Houston, Dallas, Chicago and New York are all diverse populations with huge amounts of first generation and non-natives, yet continue to struggle with attendance (I know there are other factors in that). I guess I feel like those immigrant populations would tend to support the team they supported back home and their first-gen American kids would follow suit and support their parents team. Just my 2 cents.
@@calebjackson4110 Atlanta has the best MLS attendance and it's not even a contest.
@@willp.8120 this is true. Atlanta by far has the biggest support, but from what I’ve heard, that ATL United target it’s urban core young population, not the first gen Mexican/Haitian immigrants. So my point still stands, lol
@@calebjackson4110 I don't think they target the Millennial/Z liberal intown white population, that is primarily who likes the United and that is who supports them heavily. To be honest, I don't get the love affair with soccer they have, as it is quite boring to watch. Hockey is so much more fun to watch, and yet these liberals had no desire to see the Thrashers while they were here. The hockey fanbase is overwhelmingly conservative in comparison. The Mexicans tend to watch teams from the Mexican leagues on television, in my opinion.
The owner of the Boston Celtics swapped teams with the owner of the Buffalo Braves (crazy) and then moved the Braves to San Diego in 1978 and renamed them the Clippers. Named after the sail boats on San Diego Bay and Mission Bay in SD. Moved to LA in 1984. Stirling bought the Clippers in 1981 with the intention of moving team to LA even though he denied it. SD went from three pro teams in 1970 (Chargers, Padres, and Rockets) to one in 2022 (Padres). Ohh the pain !!
Not trying to contradict the video, just adding that the Clippers had a six year layover in San Diego before flying on to LA.
San Diego will have multiple teams again by 2025 with MLS adding a team there
5:30 as an Anahiem fan I'm glad you put the proper name of the team into the video the owner should have never changed the name of the Angels
Louisville should have an NBA team. We may have a small population, but we’re a MASSIVE basketball market by the dollar
Florida has a horrible reputation for supporting teams. As good as the Rays are, they struggle to sell out playoff games, and the Marlins draw nobody.
Florida isn't a great sports state
Lmao I love the subtle shade Kyle threw at Vegas at the end there as he’s a Sharks fan.
Also go Avs!
You may have forgotten to add that the Braves actually moved to San Diego first. That’s where they became the Clippers. They then moved to LA just a few years later.
Great video, though! Keep ‘em coming, Kyle!
part 1 was how i discovered your channel. Great work!
I was born in 1970. It’s interesting to see how much the the leagues have changed.
I, for one, don’t like how unbalanced the divisions in the NFL are geographically. I’d change a few teams, even if it means breaking up a few rivals.
I’d move the Cowboys to the NFC South and move the Panthers to the NFC East.
Then I’d move the Dolphins to the AFC South, the Colts to the AFC North, and the Ravens to the NFC East.
The Thunder never built a New Arena
The Current Arena (I think PayCom is the sponsor now) was built in 2001 as the Ford Center, the new ownership group of the Sonics in the Mid 2000s under Clay Bennet were all Chesapeake Oil guys so they wanted to move the team to Oklahoma
The Dallas / Fort Worth metro area has approx. 49 cities of which 6 are in the top 100 largest in the US and several others are in the next 10 largest. Teams added in Fort Worth in any sport would have a hard time making it because of the grip the current teams have on the area. Back in 1963 there were 2 Pro football teams in the area. The Dallas Texans had to move to Kansas City and became the Chiefs because even at that time with a much weaker hold on the market the Cowboys held the market. Prying enough market away for a new team would be next to imposable. The same would be true in most markets with established teams unless the market has more the one now.
12:00 love that picture of Bobby Orr! Arguably one of the greatest and most famous sports photographs ever.
Milwakee don’t have an NHL team because of Bill Wertz the owner of the Blackhawks always blocked the attempts. He also kept Blackhawks home games off TV unless they sold out for years until he died and his son took over and almost immediately put the games back on TV
Granted, the Blackhawks we're pretty awful after the 1970s (maybe even the '60s?) until the 2010s (Toews & Kane era)
Vegas does well because visitors like to watch their home teams when visiting Nevada.
I still find myself surprised that Nashville has an NHL team, and it does feel a little out of place so far in the south, but it is cool, and i think people support them so hard because we just like having national teams and such. It like with the titans, they could have ended up in memphis, but the people in memphis weren't really fighting to have them, so they went to nashville, and the people there decided, you know what, even if theyre a very mediocre team most years, we're gonna support them because we're lucky to have a nationally known sports team. So nashville ends up supporting a lot more than one would think they would.
Memphis was never the final destination of the Oilers. People around Memphis knew that they weren't staying, so they felt little connection to the team. It's not like if they supported them they'd have ended up in Memphis, as Nashville was the destination, but they were using the Liberty Bowl until Nashville had a stadium. They even moved out of Memphis early because attendance was so bad and played a year at Vanderbilt's stadium before their stadium was completed. Memphis is very fortunate to even have the Grizzlies given the small size and no nearby cities to also pull from like New Orleans can from Baton Rouge.
Seattle Sonics fan here. Glad to hear you agree they should have a team!
OKC resident here
We did y'all dirty, there definitely needs to be an NBA expansion in Seattle
The NHL's rival league, the WHA, didn't actually start playing until the fall of 1972. Which was also when the New York Islanders began play. The two facts are not entirely unrelated - Nassau Coliseum, the Islander's first home was newly built at the time, and the NHL's thinking was 'If we don't put a team in there, the WHA will, and we can't have that.' From this, the Islanders were born.
What always concerned me about Charlotte and Jacksonville is that like Birmingham, there are only two VHF commercial TV outlets.
I'm not understanding the Wisconsin hate in this video.
Only focusing on population is a narrow way to redistribute teams. As someone watching the Packers play the Chargers, I saw a good 30-40% of the fans in the stands be Cheeseheads since, surprise, a lot of Midwesterners have moved to LA (if you're young) and Phoenix or Florida (if you're older).
I'd argue that the Green Bay Packers are more of an institution than a modern day football team with a history going back to 1919. They're the only team that's publicly owned AND plays their home games in one of the oldest stadiums still standing strong today. Is you're gonna get rid of the Packers, you need to do away with the Chicago Bears since they're just as old as the Packers...and their rivalry is the oldest in the NFL too.
I also don't understand the Bucks disappearing but the Timberwolves staying...?!? The Bucks won the NBA Championship last year and, as a Minneapolitan, I can say that there are not that many people who watch Timberwolves games unless you're some kind of superfan...
Also, the Brewers are beloved for the Sausage Races in their games alone and I'd love to visit Milwaukee and attend a game in the next year or two to experience them myself!
This is a really interesting take, but, I'm not sure if I wanna diss my Wisconsin Born and Raised fiance by showing him this installment 😂🤣
gonna say wisconsin is more than milwaukee... the state functions as its market.
can make similar arguments about indiana and kansas city (KS/NE/parts of IA & MO)
Just wondering. Looking at the NBA, had the Grizzlies not moved to Memphis from Vancouver, how would that have effected your analysis?
The Blackhawks ownership group blocked any potential NHL team in Milwaukee
I like that nickname with the Portland SuperThunder. Keeping the Supersonics and Thunder combination.
Always appreciate the perspective from the King;
It would be neat to expand this to college big conference (SEC, Big 10, PAC 10) sports.
Fun analysis - I think one wild card factor is that a league might choose a smaller market if that market doesn't already have other professional sports teams. I assume that this is part of why the OKC Thunder makes sense.
This could be a backward strategy though - professional sports teams from different sports within the same city can boost each other more rather than competing with each other, since they typically play during different times of the year. I like how for Pittsburgh, all of the pro sports teams wear the same colors. It helps to create more of college atmosphere surrounding all of the home teams, and I think it might contribute to more people supporting another local professional team, even in sports that they care less about.
Also with the NBA the Atlanta Hawks were the St Louis Hawks at one point. In fact we hold their only championship.
Interesting how two of the NHL teams you would cut are in fact in the Stanley cup final this year.
I like that St Louis would get two teams out of this but feel kind of bad for our sister city across the state.
Great video, we need geography March madness 2022 🤙
Isn’t metro area population a different thing than market area? Some teams’ market area is several states big, like Kansas City, right?
This is true. Kansas City covers Missouri; Kansas; Iowa and Nebraska. The same goes for the Chicago teams within the Chicagoland area covering southern tip of Wisconsin; all of Illinois and western Indiana
True. Due to the reach of the night time signal of KMOX in St. Louis, there are Cards fans well into the mid-southern states.
The reason Milwaukee doesn't have an NHL team is because the Bucks are here. The NHL and NBA don't mix unless in really big markets.
Actually, it was because the Blackhawks owner blocked any potential installation of an NHL team with the Chicagoland area. The influence for NHL flowed into Milwaukee unlike the other 3 sports.
Same reason why San Antonio can't nor will ever draw a team because Ol' Jerry Boy influences the entire Texas market (Houston got lucky by the McNairs) with his Cowboys
@@MarloSoBalJr Even if Chicago was not nearby Milwaukee is too small of a market for both NHL and NBA.
Milwaukee actually built an arena in 88' with hockey in mind, but the price tag for a team ended being almost 40% higher than previously thought. This resulted in decades of terrible sight lines for watching basketball. There have been rumors since that time that the Chicago Blackhawks would also require compensation from any potential Milwaukee team as a result of infringing on their current market.
I want to fight you over the Blue Jackets (kidding, of course). Columbus honestly wasn't much of a hockey town for a while and we nearly lost the team about 10-15 years ago, but it's really turned around and there's a ton of support for the team these days. I can't say about Cinci, but a lot of my family is from the Cleveland area and the town isn't really big on hockey. Who knows, though, if they were awarded the team over Cbus I'm sure they would have generated plenty of support eventually too.
As a current Milwaukee resident, I would be beside myself if we got an NHL team. I'm under the impression that a big reason we don't is due to the close proximity to the Blackhawks franchise, plus the fact that there are a ton of Chicago transplants living in MKE who still root for the 'hawks. We do have an AHL team as well. However, the natural rivalry with the Blackhawks and Wild would be a ton of fun, and there is already a large hockey community here. I'd be first in line for season tickets for sure. Great video as always, Kyle!
Did you forget the Chill? They sold out every home game, and they were the reason why the NHL became interested in Columbus.
Tennesseean to fellow Tennessean I am very surprised you took all 3 Tennessee prob teams away.
Just was binging some of your videos and saw this new one! Love your stuff man!
Thank you!
🏀: You mentioned the WHA but not the ABA, which concentrated in smaller, basketball-mad markets. Salt Lake City got a team in 1970, and was the first ex-ABA city-- other than the league's four survivors-- to replace it with an NBA squad. SLC swiped an ABA team from Los Angeles, and San Antonio from Dallas, so size isn't everything!
Been waiting for this one king kyle! Always love your videos!
Interesting analysis, however I definitely think there's more to consider than just population when doing this. Florida in particular has a lot of people but often struggles with attendance, especially in baseball and hockey. As pointed out the Florida Panthers just don't get a lot of support from the people of Miami, even when they are one of the best teams in the league like they have been the past couple years. Tampa seems to do better, but they are literally a dynastic team at the moment and it will be interesting to see if things dry up as they fade in the years to come. In baseball, both the Marlins and Rays have horrible attendance numbers, and that's fair enough for the Marlins but the Rays have consistently been one of the best teams in baseball for a long time and they get basically zero support. I don't follow basketball as closely but it feels like the Magic also have pretty limited support compared to the Heat, who in fairness have been a better team for most of their histories.
It would be interesting to consider the cultural factors that lead to certain geographic areas giving their teams more support than others, which you did for hockey and warm-weather cities. I have to assume there are other factors at play at least explaining why the Florida baseball teams are so unpopular.
This is super cool and something that’s always fascinated me. Thanks!
I enjoyed the video, but there's quite a few more important factors that play into sports markets than just the metro, leaving this video's premise lacking.
1. Sports markets cannot be limited to simply their one metro city. As you said, people can be "out in the sticks" and still love a big city's team. I went to school in Eastern Iowa. Everybody was either a Cards fan or Cubs fan- they were quite a far way from St Louis and Chicago! Another example might be the Packers. Although "technically" in the smallest metro in pro sports, the entire state of Wisconsin (as well as plenty of fans from out of state) are diehard cheeseheads, making the total fanbase much larger than just Green Bay.
2. As you seemed to allude to in your NHL section, certain sports markets will naturally gravitate towards certain sports. There's a reason the NHL has failed *twice* in Atlanta, yet thrives in much-smaller Pittsburgh or WAY-smaller Winnipeg. How hungry is this market for your particular sport? Certainly we can say while hockey thrives in Calgary, an MLS team might not fair so well.
3. A related point; sometimes sports markets get too competitive. The NBA is not present in smaller markets by accident- the NBA has realized they tend to do well in cities with little to no other sports competition. The NBA thrives in Salt Lake. Many sports journalists cite Louisville (a very small metro!) as a great potential NBA expansion city, due to both this point and my point #2.
There are other minor squabbles, but I'll limit it to those 3 haha.
Listen, I'll explain to you why the NHL "failed" in Atlanta. None of which had anything to do with attendance.
Atlanta Flames.
The Flames could have easily stayed in Atlanta, it's just that the owner, Tom Cousins, a real estate developer in Atlanta got into financial troubles with his real estate business when the recession of the late 1970s came on that threatened to bankrupt him. As a result, he put the Flames up for sale, as it was an asset that would keep his real estate business afloat if he sold it. Being that he wanted the most money, he sold to some individuals who wanted to take the team to Calgary, despite having multiple offers from potential local owners in Atlanta. The relocation of the Flames had nothing to do with hockey not being able to work in this market.
Atlanta Thrashers
The Thrashers left on account of some unfortunate circumstances, as well as an ownership group who sabotaged the team.
Ted Turner was the owner of the Thrashers for about the first five years of their existence. Turner's media conglomerate merged with Time Warner in the early 2000s. When this happened, Time Warner became owners of both the Thrashers and Hawks, considering that both were owned by Ted Turner. Time Warner had this hair-brained idea and lack of foresight to merge with America Online (AOL) in 2004 or so (even though AOL had begun losing market share and it was clearly not going to be the future of the Internet). Not long after, the stocks of AOL-Time Warner (the new company name) started dropping as people were ditching AOL for new cable Internet. In order to gain greater capital in an attempt to strengthen the company's earnings, AOL-Time Warner put the sports franchises of the Thrashers and the Hawks up for sale. They wanted a quick sale to offset their massive company losses. In order to sell off both franchises as quickly as possible, they decided to sell both teams and the rights to Philips Arena as a PACKAGE DEAL. This means that a potential owner would own both franchises and the rights to the arena.
This package deal was a bad idea, and it is why the Thrashers are no longer in Atlanta.
You see, by bundling a basketball team with a hockey team, you got potential owners who could want a basketball team, but not care about hockey, but buy both in order to get a basketball team. That is exactly what happened. A group known as Atlanta Spirit Group, a group of businessmen from all over the country (most seemed to be from out of state), wanted to own a basketball team. They liked the idea of owning the Atlanta Hawks, but they did not want the Atlanta Thrashers. However, since it was a package deal, they had the idea that they'd go ahead and buy both teams and had plans to turn around and sell the Thrashers quickly after acquiring the teams. This quick sale did not take place, however, because one of the owners of the many actually liked hockey and wanted to keep the Thrashers. The owners who wanted to sell the team decided to sue the owner who wanted to keep the team. This resulted in a years-long drawn out legal action in which the ownership group became nearly insolvent from all the expenses involved in litigation. What's more, Atlanta Spirit Group also was irresponsible with money in that they offered ridiculous contracts for players on the Hawks which sucked up much of their available money after lawsuit expenses were considered. This meant that there was a lot less income for the Thrashers, and in order to offset the losses from their own mismanagement, they traded off most of the Thrashers good players. This had a lot to do with the Thrashers dismal performance on the ice.
Once the lawsuits had worked their way through the court system, it was established that Atlanta Spirit Group would be able to sell the Thrashers.
Now what I am about to tell you is why it has been said that Atlanta Spirit Group sabotaged the Thrashers.
Atlanta Spirit Group only wanted the Hawks, as I have already pointed out. They also did not want the Thrashers sharing Philips Arena with the Hawks with a different owner. As a result, when they put the team up for sale, there were stipulations that thwarted any potential local buyers. You see, Atlanta Spirit made it where any new owner of the Thrashers would not have access to revenue generated by food sales or parking. The only income they could get would come through ticket sales, which was not enough to make the franchise successful. Plus, Atlanta Spirit expected the hockey owner to PAY them to use Philips Arena, considering that they owned the rights to the arena. Thus, with no probable successful revenue stream possible, along with what amounts to a fee for the use of the arena, no local buyers could take the risk. Anyone who wanted to keep the team in Atlanta couldn't take the risk, considering that Philips Arena was the only arena suitable to the NHL at the time for NHL hockey. The Gwinnett arena up in the suburbs where the ECHL Gwinnett Gladiators (now known as the Atlanta Gladiators) played was considered to be too small, so potential owners were not allowed to have the team play in the Gwinnett arena. What's ironic about this, however, is that the Gwinnett Arena was about the same size in terms of seating as the arena in Winnipeg, of which the league let slide. Furthermore, if the sale of the Thrashers had occurred two years later, the league became more lax in arena sizes for temporary locations, and it would have been a possibility, but not in 2011.
Others have also stated that Atlanta Spirit wanted the relocation fee, and they had no true intention of keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta, as they would gain a lot more in a sale resulting in relocation than keeping the team in Atlanta. As a result, they made it difficult for any buyers to keep the team here through their stipulations, and they quickly sold off the team to True Sports North in a manner of a couple months.
True Sports North had been trying to get the original Winnipeg Jets, known as the Phoenix Coyotes at the time, to return to Winnipeg, but the city of Glendale, Arizona coughed up the money to keep the team there. As a result, they then sought out the Thrashers, the only team up for sale.
The Thrashers relocation had nothing to do with Atlanta not being suitable for the NHL. Atlanta was never last in attendance, and had higher attendance than Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston at times. Atlanta outsold Phoenix and the NY Islanders practically every season. To think that hockey doesn't work here with a metro population at about 6.2 million, but to probably think it works in Nashville and Las Vegas with populations around 2 million, a third the size, is a little strange. Furthermore, the Braves are third in attendance in MLB this year. The United are first in MLS attendance. The Falcons were middle of the pack attendance. Atlanta is a good sports town for hockey, but because we have unfortunately lost two NHL teams, there's this false idea that the area must not work with hockey, which isn't true.
With regard to your first point, my wife's family is from SE Illinois. Due to its particular location, there's no shortage of baseball as the area has fans of three different major league teams: the Cubs, the Cardinals, and the Reds (the town is just as far from Cincy as it is from Chicago). The radio stations carry all three teams' games, schedules permitting.
I wonder what metro areas care the most (per Capita) about sports and which care the least. It'd be interesting to compare qualities of the sports fans in different cities. Living in DC and I can tell you we have a very weak interest in sports here.
I have actually looked into this at times. From what I've seen, the eight most passionate markets with at least two teams would be Boston, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Milwaukee (and Green Bay), New Orleans, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh. The two least passionate by far would be Miami and Washington, D.C.
@@davezarvan Oh cool. That'd make sense to me. I can't even tell you how disappointed everyone here was when they announced "The Commanders" as the new name for the WFT. My partner and I were personally hoping for "The Washington Department of Football" haha. I'm surprised Kyle said he likes the name in his video lol. But regardless, I don't think I know a single person who plans on going to any of their games anyways.
i bet most of them will be in the midwest and northeast
@@treyshaffer What Dan Snyder has done to the Redskins/WFT/Commanders is disgusting, and Bruce Allen did quite a lot of damage as well. It is embarrassing what that once proud franchise has become. Also, were there worse names than Commanders? Yes. But there were certainly many more better options than that. Empty stadiums (less than 20% full) might be the only wakeup call for Snyder.
My guess as to why Miami and Washington have the least passionate fan bases is that many residents in those areas are not originally from there. Many government people move to the D.C. area and lots of snowbirds live in South Florida. I think teams in Tampa Bay would have less passion if they weren't as successful recently as well.
Houston Rockets seems so natural that I never would have expected thar name to not be founded there - Space City. It couldn't have worked out worse for the New Orleans Jazz or Los Angeles Lakers.
For many hot as can be cities like Dallas, Phoenix and Vegas or very humid like Nashville or Charlotte, the invention and roll out of central AC is often said to be the reason for the tremendous population growth as well as many companies moving to those cities.
I live in Iowa, not sure how far Minneapolis / St Paul are, but think I'm just about center of Chicago, St Louis and Kansas City, with the Cubs who's MLB team, my area has been assigned, they now are on Marquee Channel, one I have to use cable to receive, and not on either satellite company, I just can not justify the extra monthly expense to use my monopolized cable company, which does cable and telephone (with a terrible local calling area) I'll miss you CUBS.
Rays should move to Orlando, and be a secondary destination for travelers to the theme parks.
They certainly would draw more with a new stadium, whether in TB or Orlando. Couldn’t draw any fewer than they do now with that soulless monstrosity in St. Petersburg.
They still won't draw much better as long as they foolishly remain in the Snowbird State. It's not like a new stadium helped the Marlins much.
Havana has a huge baseball stadium that would be perfect for the Rays. The Rays dont draw more than 20,000, even when they have the best record in MLB! That's sad.
I do think there’s value to these teams in being the ONLY pro team in a small market. The Thunder are the only pro sports team in the whole state, so they have a level of local pride and statewide loyalty and reach that teams in Houston or DFW can’t match, because those cities have 5 local major pro teams each
Kyle singing Viagra Boys made my day
Interesting video but it ignores a huge thing, which is why my old home of PDX has trouble getting teams: Corporate dollars. Teams make their revenue off tv, sponsorship, and selling those corporate skyboxes. PDX just doesn't have enough big money corps
Great video Gegraphy King! Curious if you were commisioner of these leagues, how seriously would you consider expanding into Canada for new/expansion teams? ( New NFL team in Toronto / MLB team in Montreal/ Vancouver)
Canada has its own football league (with some variations in the rules), which of course includes a team in Toronto.
I'm not sure about baseball popularity in Vancouver but Montreal has been on the list for possible expansion for a while. This video was about population but the reality is that cities that build stadiums and arenas with tax dollars usually get the teams. If Montreal built a taxpayer funded stadium I'd bet MLB would expand overnight. The NHL didn't decide to expand to Seattle until after arena funding was secured. I doubt NFL expansion for Toronto but maybe a possibility Buffalo Bills move to southern Ontario? Joint stadium for TigerCats and Bills? But it always comes down to money and not passionate fan bases.
@@GeographyKing MLB has repeatedly stated that expansion is off the table until the Athletics and Rays both get their stadium situations sorted out.
@@GeographyKing The Bills are likely going to move to the Austin/San Antonio area.
There was a big thing in the 90s about the possibility of Toronto getting into the NFL.. Politicians worried about the CFL tried to make it difficult at each turn.
The Bills did play a few games in Toronto, but weren't very successful. I think part of it was pricing and other marketing screwups. Plus, Rogers Centre has been converted more to baseball only. The Argos play at BMO Field along with TFC.
I could see maybe alterations to Tim Horton's field in Hamilton as mentioned in a joint venture with the Ti-Cats. Draw from the full southern Ontario crowd.
Love the NHL photo of Bobby Orr going airborne after his Stanley Cup winnah! Remember it well.
A comment or two about the Florida Panthers and their lack of support. Their home rink is practically in the middle of nowhere, closer to the Everglades than any South Florida city (well, Sunrise is close). Also, given the population of South Florida, they tend to get more supporters of the visiting team than the home crew, especially when one of the "Original Six" teams is in town.
Thanks for bringing up and recognizing MLS as one of the major sports leagues
Surprised you'd keep the Coyotes around. I know Phoenix is a top 10 metro area, but seeing as you said you put more emphasis on geography than population outright in the NHL reshuffle, I can't see how a team that can't fill a college stadium could possibly be viable
Awesome job buddy. Love your channel
Thank you!
LOVE these vids!
Dang, Wisconsin lost everything here. And yet somehow got hockey. Go figure
You can't get rid of the Pirates! They're like 150 years old.
Fans are too good. They would never
Why is Pittsburgh any more deserving of a baseball team than Charlotte, which is LARGER now than Pittsburgh. What about Raleigh, or Nashville, or Orlando? Why are there so many teams up north, but so few down South, despite larger populations down South?
@@willp.8120 Yes, Charlotte may be larger than Pittsburgh, as it has gained a lot of population recently as have other southern cities. It would be great to have MLB teams in other southern cities like the ones you mentioned. I'm not super excited about the idea of an MLB team in Orlando, just because Florida already has the Marlins and Rays. Nashville and Charlotte would be good spots for a team, I think. To answer your question about why there are so many teams in the north, and not so many in the south - I think it just has to do with the history of population in the United States, and the history of the teams in some of those older cities like Pittsburgh. There's been a lot of migration away from the rust belt towards the south, so maybe the expansion of teams just hasn't caught up.
This was a great video, as always.... but...
There's more nuance than just which metros are the largest. For instance, I would argue that the NHL is better off having the only pro sports team in the city of Raleigh than it would be for an NHL team to be lost in the shuffle of 3-4 pro sports teams in Charlotte. It is also worth considering not just how many people live in a metro, but how many people support the team. There are more people supporting the Royals in decidedly smaller Kansas City than there are people supporting the Rays (or Marlins, for that matter) in larger Tampa or Miami. Finally, (and this part feels gross to say) corporate sponsorships factor in, too. A slightly smaller but higher income metro with multiple corporations present may be able to support a pro sports franchise better than a slightly larger one.
There's definitely more to markets than population, I just wanted to highlight cities that are now major powerhouses that weren't when the leagues were formed and which cities have lost ground in the last 50 years.
In terms of being a sports fan, are you an eye test guy, or analytics guy? This video supports the idea you like analytics. You definitely did your research with the data you provided
Not even a sports fan but found this interesting
I think you missed the point of the Las Vegas Knights.
What the NHL is counting on, and correctly so so far, is that each NHL franchise, especially the ones from the North and Northeast, sponsor 'Vegas travel packages' for their fans when the local team is playing in Las Vegas. Gamble away the mortgage for three days with discounted airfare and hotel, and oh, in the mean time you get to watch the Blackhawks, Red Wings, Blues, etc. play the Knights. So even if the Vegas season ticket fan base isn't as large as most other franchises, every weekend all season might theoretically feature a weekend package involving the visiting team's fans. The balance of the arena might have a higher percentage of visiting fans than would be normal at a sporting event, but long-term it works because it doesn't rely as strongly on the current performance of the home team and fair-weather fans. Of course the Knights are still in their honeymoon period, but so far it's working. in their inaugural season, 2017-18, they filled up the arena and finished in the top third of league attendance and have ever since. Have to throw out 2020-21 because of the Chinese virus, but this season, even though they are having a mediocre year (wouldn't be in the playoffs if they started today), they are 6th in league attendance. Short answer: don't worry about the Knights.
Great video but I feel if you made maps for all of the "new" leagues and possibly tried to draw divisions, that would've been really awesome!
Vegas, I think the rules are different.
Vegas can probably pick up decent money from away team fan bases via tickets simply based on how much Vegas caters to tourism
The 1970 list is metro areas and the 2020 is combined metro areas, these can be very different. Dallas-Fort Worth still has less population than Chicago and would not be able to support a MLB team in Fort Worth. The south side of Chicago still supports bad White Sox teams.