The Catholic Church is a force for good
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2013
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Filmed at Central Hall Westminster in London on October 21st 2009.
Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens battle it out with Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdecombe over the motion "The Catholic Church is a Force for Good in the World" in our debate from 2009.
Stephen Fry's clash with Anne Widdecombe was turned into an an iq2 Short, which can be seen here: • Stephen Fry vs Ann Wid... .
First vote: 678 For, 1102 Against, 346 Undecided
Final vote: 268 For, 1876 Against, 34 Undecided
Their first mistake was agreeing to a debate against Christopher Hitchens. Their second, and probably greater, mistake was agreeing to a debate against Stephen Fry.
How greater? Christopher was a lot more versed in journalism in countries disgraced by religion which fry has nearly no firsthand experience.
Bar the fact he's homosexual and put forward very good arguments, apart from more personal experience and belief I doubt its to be taken as truism.
@@commoncriminal923people don’t like to listen to peoples (Hitchens) facts, they can relate to fry’s personal experience, shouldn’t have to tho Hitchens is right
I just love her dissmisal, "Oh I knew you would bring up the rape and condoms..." as if that was some how not something to bring up and minor.
Why did she not address it ? Defend ?
Look listen to her replies she has no arguments to make whatsoever. Completely bankrupt of ideas. it is just not possible for her to make any
Defense All she could do was
Blow hot air. Just a string of words put together nothing profound or relevant.
Aren't those two of the major issues that demonstrate that the church CANNOT possibly be considered as a force for good?
Could she not see how she shot herself in the foot, by saying that?
Not a terribly bright lady - no wonder she became an M.P. !
Jack the Ripper:
"Oh, all the murders and the mutilation of the bodies? I knew you'd bring that up."
The camaraderie and utter respect Fry and Hitchens have towards each other is my definition of bromance.
What's most telling is that the Catholic Church doesn't know or understand _why_ it's not a force for good. It has no idea what "good" even is, and it's sitting there completely baffled that people realize that it's not actually "good". It's completely disconnected from reality.
A very good comment!
It's rather ironic that the imposed authority of judgement and sin can't seem to face their own,
Because you don't like the good manifested in true teachings like sodomy is a sin that cries to God for vengeance doesn't make it not good or untruthful.
You own words tell me that you are truly baffled, you have not got a clue
Religion, every flavor of it, specifically including the Catholic Church, is a MAN MADE POWER TOOL, oft embraced by authoritarians and grifters... 'give your money to god; send your check to me".
Catholic Church gets Hitchslapped and Fried
Lmao ...it was great !!
The Catholic Church is still here . . . . Where's Hitch?
So who ultimately is the one who got bitch-slapped, huh?
See how it works? Now go do your homework.
Hitchens' brilliance will live on as long as videos like this are being watched. The evil of the catholic church will be the end of them, stats show that with every generation, less and less people are accepting religious doctrine as truth, time is on our(Hitchens) side friend :)
I hope that you don't claim Jesus as your exemplar in behavior and attitude... what a shitty fucking thing to say, or think for that matter. At least Hitch was HONEST and forthright - two things which so rarely can be said about any religion that it's just beyond the pale how anyone actually reading scripture could believe that said-scripture is cherished and heralded by the vile organizations that claim to be directed by God.
So.... fuck you too. Yeah.
Its easy to blame the church for the actions of a few people than blame the people for their own actions !! maybe we should blame all Germans for the murdering of the Millions of jews during the 2nd world war whilst we are at it !! Or Blame all the Germans for the 1st and second world war or all Americans for the vietnam war and all etc etc etc etc !!
I started crying when the audience woman with short silver hair pleaded with the Church to reverse the ban on condoms to save lives in Africa where she did charity work. The desperation in her voice just broke me. :'(
You can blame pope john paul for that. In the early 80's the Kenya government and other African governments were proposing a condom campaign to halt AIDS. john paul cancelled everything to go on an Africa wide personal tour to personally condemn the use of condoms. He is literally, personally responsible for the subsequent deaths of millions of Africans. This single 'crime against humanity' now stands at close to 15 million deaths in Africa alone.
The pro catholic side is very good at not answering direct questions directly
Anti Christian side very good at lying and distortion.
You have no idea
Euphemism
As an MP she has had plenty of practice at that.
Good god, that woman’s voice was pure torture to listen to. A recording of her voice and Yoko Ono trying to sing could be used as a method of torture. But that would be inhumane.
The final vote just goes to show how much the Catholic Church counts on the ignorance of their believers. As soon as just a tiny bit of factual information is thrown in, we have true enlightenment and the tide turns against them.
Stephen Fry, as always, on top form!
Spare me, and continue living awash in the blood of innocent unborn children and AIDS victims. That is the world of secularism. The church runs 30% of all hospitals in the world and 70% of missionary charities. Get you head out of your butt and get in touch with REAL LIFE.
Of course, because as every sentimental pantheist knows truth is determined by popular vote! So much for your hate under the mask of intelligent discourse, no comrade?
@@stephenmcguire7342 Well we ex-Catholics have had a lifetime of experience to show what a fake religion Catholicism is. Leaving the Catholic church was a happy escape. I don't hate Catholics who remained, I pity them.
Ann Widdicombe is so dismissive of any opposing view. She doesn't directly address her opponents' points, and the audience knows it. Teamed with Archbishop Don't-Worry-Be-Happy, no wonder they lost the vote.
Its easy to blame the church for the actions of a few people than blame the people for their own actions !! maybe we should blame all Germans for the murdering of the Millions of jews during the 2nd world war whilst we are at it !! Or Blame all the Germans for the 1st and second world war or all Americans for the vietnam war and all etc etc etc etc !!
@@carlshadbolt9193 absolutely a false equivalency - Germans today (and indeed even many during the time) do not follow the same school of thought that Nazis did. Catholics today *do* follow the same teachings and the same school of thought that has caused so many atrocities all over the world. They may not act on then quite as viciously but make no mistake, it's the same dogma. *That* is why religion and the Catholic Church is deserving of criticism that Germans or other groups you mentioned are not.
she's a mean old frowning troll. who cares?
@@carlshadbolt9193 It's easy to blame a church that is responsible for everything it has done and is responsible for, while sanctimoniously condemning others and still demanding their 10% cut.
"The Catholic Church wasn't just a part of his parents' lives, and his grandparents', it ruled their lives. The priests told them what to eat, what to do, who to vote for, what to think. What to believe. Told them to have more and more babies. Kept them pregnant and poor and ignorant. They'd been beaten in school, scolded in church, abused in the back rooms. And when, after generations of this, they'd finally walked away, the Church had accused them of being unfaithful And threatened them with eternal damnation." - Louise Penny
Totally biased debate. Bill Donohue from the Catholic League was supposed to be invited but it was withdrawn because he would have exposed all their lies.
Ann Widdecombe reminds me of Dolores Umbridge. She defends the Catholic Church with the same rageful blind loyalty as Umbridge when she defends the Ministry of Magic.
Well....the catholic church does believe in magic - they are just unaware that it is all illusion intended to fool.
Or are they?
I find Stephen Fry's speech emotionally moving.
Great speech 21:05 👍
Its easy to blame the church for the actions of a few people than blame the people for their own actions !! maybe we should blame all Germans for the murdering of the Millions of jews during the 2nd world war whilst we are at it !! Or Blame all the Germans for the 1st and second world war or all Americans for the vietnam war and all etc etc etc etc !!
Agreed...he seems like a lovely man.
Carl Shadbolt: It wasn't just a "few Catholics" who perpetrated the Grand Inquisition.....IT WAS CHURCH DOCTRINE which which encouraged Catholics to BURN PEOPLE AT THE STAKE!!
It wasn't just an aberation by a few people!! The Grand Inquisition was an actual office of the Catholic Church!!!
@Carl shadbolt absolutely a false equivalency - Germans today (and indeed even many during the time) do not follow the same school of thought that Nazis did. Catholics today *do* follow the same teachings and the same school of thought that has caused so many atrocities all over the world. They may not act on then quite as viciously but make no mistake, it's the same dogma. *That* is why religion and the Catholic Church is deserving of criticism that Germans or other groups you mentioned are not.
this is by far my favorite INT SQ debate, hitchens and fry are brutal and awesome
Ann Widdecombe's voice alone is proof that there is no mercyful god. Stephen Fry seems barely able to hold himself ^^
Here comes the tolerant left: "Oh we dont body shame people" Also the tolerant left: *makes fun of a woman for her voice*
Its easy to blame the church for the actions of a few people than blame the people for their own actions !! maybe we should blame all Germans for the murdering of the Millions of jews during the 2nd world war whilst we are at it !! Or Blame all the Germans for the 1st and second world war or all Americans for the vietnam war and all etc etc etc etc !!
Or maybe we should blame males for being males and Females for being Female or the creator for creation full stop !!
@Carl shadbolt absolutely a false equivalency - Germans today (and indeed even many during the time) do not follow the same school of thought that Nazis did. Catholics today *do* follow the same teachings and the same school of thought that has caused so many atrocities all over the world. They may not act on then quite as viciously but make no mistake, it's the same dogma. *That* is why religion and the Catholic Church is deserving of criticism that Germans or other groups you mentioned are not.
@@ISUBAJA First of all: Get a sense of humor. Second: I am no leftist. Don't force assumptions for the sake of your mediocre joke. Thirdly: Get a sense of humor
We all need more debates like this !!
jmf s2k yeh thats true, especially about how the royal family is jusified
It's not a debate; it's just infantile name-calling
@@splinterbyrd No YOU!
Speaking as a 68yo with a foot in the grave already, I've been contentedly ex-Catholic for over 50 years, having emancipated myself from the house of horror that is the Catholic church in my teens. In over half a century, the only times I've set foot in a church was either as a tourist visiting a famous one, or for the hatches, matches and dispatches of assorted friends and relatives. I haven't missed the whited sepulchre that the Catholic church turned itself into one bit. It's worse than a waste of time, it's a cardinal sin that cannot be forgiven.
And I thought I was the only one. Oh, that was part of their strategy, wasn’t it? Hello, brother, wish we’d met five decades ago.
@@user-qj5un7tr7f Hey, T G! :) As one ex-Catholic to another, greetings. There are a lot of us around.
This version *cut out* Hitchens most explosive statement! He said "🗣So how is an apology possible, how is any understanding or undertaking or firm purpose of amendment to be allowed, when the original sin, so to say - the radix malorum, the fons et origo, the problem in the first place - *is the belief on the part of this church that it does possess a truth that we don’t have, and it does have a God-given right - a warrant - a mandate of heaven - to tell other people what to do*, not just in their public but in their private lives. And until that is changed - until that *fantastic and sinister and non-founded claim* is changed - these crimes will go on repeating themselves, being partially denied, partially admitted when it is too late to do anything else, and covered up."
Damn I didn’t know that, can it be found on UA-cam ?
@@oshadhaful 🗣POWERFUL!💥If you search under this channel for Hitchens you will find the unedited version. 🥂
“How an apology is possible” well it is possible because that is all one can do when it is after the fact. Way better than denying it or justifying it! Wouldn’t you say?
After all Hitchenn was a true mother F*r gifted for being a great orator. Down on religions and God etc Did not accept human mistakes and religious leaders asking for forgiveness. Couldn’t live with himself so was a chain smoker and an alcoholic so ended up slowly ruining himself all the way to his final demise while insisting no one should pray for him. But I forgive him and will pray for him! That must be still bothering him long after his death wherever me might be 😂😇
@@patmarco2251 wow, what a truly pathetic comment 😂. I’ve seen you commenting the exact same thing in several other videos too. You religious idiots can pray all you want but it doesn’t do anything. Hitchens always stood against disgusting religious hypocrisy and all you have to say is he did not “accept human mistakes” ? 🤣 lmao. Go pray to your imaginary sky daddy and ask for forgiveness
@@oshadhaful is your name really Oshadhaful or Oshad hateful 😂 either way, I will pray for you. Now relax and if you feel you are getting fixated or obsessed about my comments, try praying it may help you relax 🙏
The church isn't a force for good, and the audience voted on it lol. The church got stomped, and for fair reason. They're criminally evil.....
If I just listen to her voice I can pretend that it's Eric Idle in drag.
LOL
I would like to cite my comic books to prove that Superman really exists! /s
I nearly choked when Widdecombe mentioned the bankers bonus. She was a Tory MP in the most right wing government in modern times. The irony!
Ditto....
Vast majority who are C.O.E.
Great statement by Stephen Fry.
That outcome gives me hope for humanity.
As soon as she read the final tally at the end, I started laughing my ass off. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
The polls at the beginning and end of this debate illustrate exactly why I ALWAYS take the time to debate religious individuals. Secular humanists, agnostics and atheists alike are constantly asked 'why we care' what religious people do, or 'why we bother' arguing with religious people on morality and/or science. I do it, because I think there is a chance that someone listening to what I have to say, might be effected by my words. It's clear that Hitchens and Fry changed the minds of many.
Do you mean people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Hitler was Catholic, try again. This has been debunked so many times. Also, bad atheists exist, but you somehow missed the point. If a person acts badly, it has nothing to do with their atheism. How could it? There’s no dogma or book to instruct them to do bad things. It’s a coincidence, or more likely that their bad behaviour is informed by their political views or other circumstances. Whereas religious people get their hateful outlooks directly from their holy books.
@@Steersky Total pish, Hitler renounced his faith and was into astrology and mysticism.You're a nasty ignorant bigot.
Every time I watch/listen to this debate a tiny, horrible part of me always hopes the Chairperson will say "...a panel which includes some of the most provocative, intelligent and stimulating commentators and practitioners on the subject... and also Anne Widdecombe". 🤣
The problem is that the Church moved away from believing Christ's explanation about what 'good' is, to a belief that whatever gives the Church power and authority is 'good'.
I was a sound for sore ears to hear Stephen Fry speak after Anne Widdecombe. And he was so very right and humble, unlike Anne.
The comment from Hitchens about babysitters. Can you IMAGINE having Stephen Fry as your babysitter?? Bliss.
Bliss for Fry. Especially if your child is a young, male adolescent.
I love how the African guy, speaking first, thinks he's landed a knockout blow & retires to a nice slanty chair with his feet up on the desk & his hands clasped behind his head! 🤣
And then gets orally eviscerated by Hitch...Yeah, many have made that mistake and paid that price!
that opening statement was so amateurish i almost couldn't believe it.
@@vedantbhard Yah. He thinks he speaking to children.
Without a doubt the Catholic Church's biggest kicking since the Reformation. Hail Hitchens and Fry, the twenty-first century's Luther and Calvin.
Love the smile on Stephen Fry at the end. Also, good arguments from opponents on the motion. Decimated the proponents of the motion in this debate.
Love your kitty!
Thank you so much for this debate.. been struggling to make sense of things and this has helped me so much. From Matthew
I love how Hutchens talks about all the horrific things the catholic church has been a part of, and the ONE thing that anne widdecombe picks up from ALL that, is "we aren't anti-semitist, look at us we saved thousands of jews." WELL FUCKIN MILLIONS DIED, I would've been much more surprised and moved for the catholic panelists if they HAD opened with apologies.
Ohhhh....I feel a serving coming on.............and there it is. No one can serve it quite like Hitchens.
That lady reminds me of Professer Umbridge in the Harry Potter Series.
He did have a habit of carefully gift-wrapping his opponents arse before serving it to them and asking for the plate back.
One of my favorite debates. Very well done! If C.Hitchens were alive today I would travel a great distance to shake his hand and thank him for his generous time to reveal the dark side of religions.
Its easy to blame the church for the actions of a few people than blame the people for their own actions !! maybe we should blame all Germans for the murdering of the Millions of jews during the 2nd world war whilst we are at it !! Or Blame all the Germans for the 1st and second world war or all Americans for the vietnam war and all etc etc etc etc !!
@@carlshadbolt9193 exactly. If people are blaming the church , then that means they have no faith in God. That means they came to church because of people so they should realize they’re leaving because of PEOPLES ACTION. Where is your faith ? Why blame the lord for peoples behavior ?
@@carlshadbolt9193 I agree. What they say makes no sense.
Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens. Two masters of language and intellect. Such a joy to watch them in a debate together.
10 wrongs and a right does not constitute a force for good. I feel one side should have defined what a force for good is. The "for" side seemed to think that as long as some good was coming from the church it meant that the church itself was a good force (even if it does commit atrocities at times).Hitchens and Fry should have addressed that the bad acts outweighed the good therefore the institution is no more good than a murderer who helped an old lady cross the street on Sunday.
This is fantastic and very enlightening!
i stood up till 2 am... totally worth it!
🔥🔥🔥🔥 WOWZA amazing speeches from Hitchens and Fry. Powerful, moving … love it.
That's because you're a bigot.
Love Christopher and Stephen! Such rational voices!
Watching Widdecombe I can only say the Anglican Church can thank its lucky stars she left.
Anglican Church is a farce. Thousands of abuse cases as well, the majority involving Gays and teenage boys. The Methodists also have their own abuse problem. More lies from Fry.
still so relevant 12 years later. I really wish it won’t be in the future
Relevant?
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 Yes, as in the arguments being made. They are as true today as they were when this was recorded.
"That is a wrong question" of course it is when you can't answer it. 🤣🤣🤣
Epic. Best debate ever.
Ann Widdecombe is not easy to listen to and it has nothing to do with the content
agreed, cringeworthy
Honestly, the bishop and the MP didn't make a very good case. They were clearly outmatched by Hitchens and Fry.
But at least part of that advantage is attributable to the fact that Hitchen's and Fry's arguments were simply more logical. It's hard to find people of great reason willing to defend nonsense.
I think that any large organization - especially if its political or religious -- has the potentially to do lots of good and lots of bad. I can admire the charitable work that the Catholic Church does, while also loathing the corruption within the Church and the Church's political opposition to family planning and LGBTQ rights.
Stephen Fry is absolutely brilliant. I'm going to have to find some more of his material!
GET RID OF RELIGION. AND LIVE IN PEACE ONCE AGAIN.
Religion is fine, but creepy pedo cults that cozy up to international fascism needs to go
RELIGION always was a root of much evil.
They found the right b i t c h for Hitchens :-)))). I have no dog in this fight but I am still on Hitchens side.
Fry’s delivery continues to inspire and soothe me as a gay ex-Catholic who grew up being taught to hate Jews in parochial school because they were somehow responsible for having murdered Jesus.
We all wait for you to become a Catholic ex gay.
As for hating Jews... While sections of society hate jews for a Catholic to do so, that's news to me.
Well spoken Mr. Fry!
Widdecombe sounds just like a Catholic nun that carried a heavy ruler with her as she paced up and down through the class room of my third grade. I totally forgot that mean nun's name. Thank goodness I remember the best of my childhood in public schools. Not that bullies weren't there either.
"I used to be Catholic, now I'm an atheist."
Same, but it was the Catholic church who lead me to reason through their lies and reprehensible behavior. I have to thank them for that, at least.
You show you don't have reason, as one of Catholicism's core values is the use of reason. Just read saint Augustine, Aquinas, or Joseph Ratzinger and then some back here and tell us they don't have reason
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 They don't, and neither do you. Keep supporting an enclave of weird homophobic pedophile-protecting businessmen, dude. Looks really good for you. Do you take your blinders in a medium or large? Pssst: believing in a sky fairy isn't reasonable either
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 They have some form of reason but one that doesn't quite hold up to scrutiny once you start scratching the surface, especially given what we know today. Saint Augustine is quite literally obsessed with sex, which as Stephen Fry pointed out seems to be the case whenever you try to force someone with a healthy libido to never indulge in sex of any form (solo or otherwise). Frankly his writings are quite useless as a guiding light today as we have a healthier view of sex in general: his was a time when people were advised that chastity was the higher calling and any form of sex was perfectly shameful, married sex just being the lesser evil. Medieval monks are to be credited for preserving the works of Aristotle and Platon but they mostly used them to try and validate their own faith, which is a fundamentally unscientific approach
Except for the Crusades, Inquisition, the nuns running orphanages with the bodies of children they've murdered in the yard and the spirits of adults destroyed by their cruelty, the priests who have molested, the women who are treated as second class citizens regarding their bodies and status and ability to leave abusers. I could go on and on and on. Sorry wrote all this before I listened to Hitchens.
i am watching all 46:44 mins of this just for Stephen Fry.
Did anyone else notice that during the final numbers, the second round of votes some how had 52 total votes more than the first round?
Late arrivals?
The serious, funny, intelligent stuff starts at 21.30
Hitchens at 7:40, don't forget him ;)
This debate was absolutely *butchered* during editing. I'm VERY surprised that the RDFRS chose this particular version to promote, when the full unedited version is equally as freely available...
R.I.P Chris, you fought the good fight til death, and many benefit for it. few have a grasp or understanding of the english language like Hitchens does, it just sucks i have to look in the dictionary at leas 3 times a minute when he speaks...
edit: anyone wondering when this debate occurred, it was October 2009
Ann Widdecombe sounds like some Ann Widdecombe parodist. Christopher Hitchens was the brightest man alive and his arguments were absolutely rock solid, and Stephen Fry was just absolutely fantastic.
Agree, excellently put.
The African guy bought a game of Rock, paper, siccors to fight a nuclear armed joint superpower!
PLEASE! can you host a Debate on the subject "Is cannabis good or bad for you?" There are lots of people that would be interested in that debate!
Stephen Fry should have a catch-line, he's so awesome! 'You just got Fried'! Heheh
Fat Fried is a devious liar and you're a fool for believing it.
Regarding Christopher Hitchin's reference to Stephen Fry babysitting children, his talent and magic of the language puts him up with Gombrich when it comes to the mysteries of life, not to mention Stephen's love of humanity.
Good job men! I just heard the final vote.
I'm surprised that so many people changed their minds. It is strange to me that people well informed enough to frequent a debate would hold a position so easily changed, as if they hadn't thought out their beliefs at all.
I would love a thumbs up if bit weren’t cut of this. Stephens full speech went on for like 20mins in the original
"Thou shall not covet, tell that to the bankers and their bonuses." - she said as she coveted those bankers' bonuses.
I'm a little confused. At the end, (SPOILER ALERT) it said that one side went from 678 to 268, a decrease of 20%, but that's not right. That's more like 60%. It also says that the other side went from 1102 to 1876 for a shift of 34%. That's not right either. (How about more like 70%). Perhaps Intelligence2 should hire a new mathematician?
I haven't done the maths but I presume it's a percentage change measured against the total number of votes, so not just the change within each outcome.
@animeguardianxx
They showed percentages of the total.
For instance there were 678 undecided out of 2126 total at the beginning, that's 16.27%; there were 34 out of 2178 at the end, that's 1.56%; hence the change of -14.7%, which they rounded up to -14%.
So their numbers were actually correct (and so are yours, but having different meaning - relative to the group vs the total).
Just saying. :)
The catholic church, ignored the nazi threat. An agreement was made to leave each side alone.
How dare, Anne suggest that the slight help of a couple of thousand people, outweighs the church's disregard and inaction towards the final solution. You could of saved so many more...this is what saddens me.
The Catholic Church as always, always been about the aggregation of power to a select few, throughout history. The fact that it has done *some* good *once in a while* is pretty much immaterial in the face of the horrors it's brought down on those who would not do as they were told, and upon the innocent.
Every few years I come back to watch Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens dance beautifully in this debate. Wish Hitchens was still with us.
Why do they get the best Athiest apologist and iffy Catholic apologist. I have seen better Catholic apologist that would make the debate more spicy.
Despite knowing that these debates always bring up the issue of condoms, AW didn’t prepare an answer to that issue?
I have seen the full version ( ua-cam.com/video/JZRcYaAYWg4/v-deo.html ) but not this one. Just out of curiosty to those who have seen both, can I recommend the edited version just as much as the full one? As we all know, shorter is better (said my girlfriend never).
open minded peoples. this was so epic, i cryed
The transcript available at Intel Squared is quite inaccurate
reminds me of Dolores Umbridge :D
Randi Steers - I agree wholeheartedly. Furthermore religious people feel they have the right to special treatment or influence on state matters. Agnostics, atheists, apatheists must always be ready to debate the religious.
the percentages 'change' in the end are just as fun as hell
sooo wrong! lol
The numbers don't even add up right. Either there were fifty-two people who didn't bother voting as they entered, or there were errors in the counting, but regardless of the reason, the total number of votes after the debate was fifty two more than before.
Reminds me of Dolores Umbridge
The Catholic side of this debate should really start a dodgeball team. If you can dodge a question, you can dodge a ball.
steven fry is a force for good
Stephen Fry is just the boss!
Hey Scott
merry christmas to you too...
Must have been the easiest debate Hitch every had, his two opponents were just straw men
I had to fast forward. :)
probably because at the time of the first uploads, it was not allowed to upload more then 10 min at a time, now we can get the entire debate in 1 video, its somewhat more convenient
Symbolic temptation. The fruit of knowledge is an aspect of mind, a powerful awareness that was awakened in man .At that moment we became human and as human took on great responsibility.
Brilliant.
Hitchens of course is confusing the teachings of the church, with various people who violated those teachings over time. All of the things he is complaining about were not what the church taught or supported with its ideology. Its kind of like saying the United States and its constitution are bad because there is a lot of crime in big cities.
While there are good and evil people in every group -- good people that help others -- the only good thing the Catholic Church as an institution itself did was to use some of the money it grifted from people who could not afford it to teach people how to read. albeit with ulterior motive... giving them bibles to read.
As a Catholic who received a Catholic education, I can say honesty that while the bible was explained to me in great detail, the catechism was the book I was given to read.
I read the Bible privately because of the gift of Catholic education.
Que bolaaas barrieron el piso con los catolicos! I can't believe that many people changed their minds, Stephen Fry was amazing by the way and so was Hitchens. I also was disapointed by the low skills as debaters of the Archbishop and of the woman but I guess they didn't have it easy anyway.
Holy Cotton-Bud--Jam Batman, Ms Widdecombe voice is an real ear grater!