Thanks for the interest and the information Hooper. If you interpret what I say in my video as "YOU WILL GET INJURED 100%" then yes, that's wrong, but that's not what I said. Maybe we can have a longer conversation about my favorite sport.
Having seen both yours and his videos, I feel like you were talking about newer climbers that get super into it and injure themselves through overwork and new-hobby enthusiasm, while he was speaking from a more intermediate to higher level perspective that feels like you were being hyperbolic. Both very valuable perspectives, especially your warning about the pit-falls of climbing too hard, too quickly, and being injured instead of being able to climb like you want. I think Hooper disagrees with you mostly when talking about people who have a bit more experience, but you were mostly warning newer climbers about the dangers of not taking care of your fingers/tendons, since they adapt slower than muscle it's harder to build them up as quickly as you progress, leading to higher injury risk. Overall, I think both videos are great, with you warning new hobbyists about a hard-to-see pitfall, and Hooper educating from a medical-professional standpoint about what you can do to avoid it.
I don't think this video was meant as a take down, but you did misinterpret data and then share those misinterpretations as fact I still appreciated the video for introducing me to the physics of climbing and the potential risks, just seems like it needed some more thorough research
This is probably the most respectful and factful response I've seen. Instead of roasting the video, all that was pointed out were the facts. It's great to see a movement towards research-based scientific thinking on the internet. Thank you for the great video! I hope this video will get just as many views as Kyle's 628k views, because the factual inaccuracies are something that could hold people back from ever trying the sport. It sounds like if you start climbing, you will almost certainly get an injury like this at some point, which simply isn't true.
I've never heard of Kyle Hill, but I appreciate the respectful way you disagree with him. Instead of cutting him down every opportunity you get, you logically suggest where he may have gone wrong and why he may have done so. Thank you for the quality information!
Thanks for the video! I am a Kyle Hill fan and also an intermediate level climber. Kyle's video made it sound like pulley injuries are practically inevitable with more advanced climbing. It is encouraging that you made the point that that's not necessarily the case and a climber's fingers can adapt as their climbing skill grows. As others have pointed out, I appreciate the respectful way you presented your rebuttal.
I really enjoy Kyle's videos, but one does need to view these with a pinch of salt. Kyle is an entertainer with a learn toward fun simplified education. I found Hooper's review to be fair and kind considering. I'd hope they would colab as they do share ideals I think.
Funny thing is, the reason I found your channel is because I saw that video and had a gut feel that it was fluff. I searched for something else and found your video 'Is Full Crimping Really More Dangerous for Climbers?'. Instantly subscribed, love your content!
Yes, Science! As a researcher, to listen/read opinions based on "google searches" and labelling them as "research" makes me boil inside. Thanks, J. For putting some serious thought into such an important topic for us, climbers. And, as a testimonial, I thank you for your video that helped my "trigger finger" heal in no time!! Tendon gliding works, dudes!!
So happy to hear that our video helped you heal up so quickly! That's awesome :) And thank you for the kind words! We love doing the research and the work that goes into these videos but it's definitely appreciated to hear they are well received!
when that youtube fame hits you and putting out new videos to satisfy the viewers becomes a chore, thats when skimming through the articles becomes dangerous when information is misinterpreted and the masses take it as fact. then again, it falls onto the PT to re-educate and change their thinking…
The pressure to constantly create content makes UA-cam tough, especially when it comes to educational content. I see it as a team effort, though; when mistakes happen we can all pitch in to make it right!
Yessssir talk about constructive criticism! Love the factual analysis sprinkled with some memes but keeping it respectful towards Kyle's original video. This is exactly how we need to stop misinformation, not by shaming OPs.
Thank you for reviewing this video - it’s great to see this information collated and presented succinctly. I also appreciate your non-derogatory tone and support of a fellow UA-camr. Keep up the good work, this channel is excellent!
Thank you for the comment and support! Yeah absolutely, the last thing we want to do is try to break someone down just to build ourselves up. Happy that we were able to do that effectively!
That video popped on my feed not long ago due to a drought of quality climbing content and from the outset was getting psyched but ounce of information qualms. Glad to see such a rebuttal. Climbing already has too little solid research and too much bro science that we don’t need new content with misinformation.
Thanks for the comment! Glad you agreed with the comment about research haha I wish we had more! We constantly have to find the closest possible research for most categories since there isn't a lot of climber specific work (except for a few select categories).
So Lattice recently put out a video about A2 injuries and I found it pretty lacking. I commented with links to your comprehensive A2 video since I consider it the gold standard for free internet advice about that injury. Then I just happened to pop on over to your site right after and I see you've this video critiquing some A2 misinformation elsewhere on the internet. One by one, you and your audience will guide folks to the promised land of solid climbing rehab/prehab and training beta! Thanks for doing what you do, Dr. Hoops!
This channel is a blessing. :) I wish UA-cam was full of this high level quality content and it was being suggested by the algorithm, instead of cheap and easy TikTok-style clickbaits. I mean in general for all kinds of topics. We need more people who can actually interpret scientific papers and their application correctly, in particular, those armed with at least the basic understanding that correlation does not imply causation.
Actually there's a study that found more instances of A4 injuries than A2 " Injury trends in rock climbers: evaluation of a case series of 911 injuries between 2009 and 2012 Volker Schöffl 1 , Dominik Popp 2 , Thomas Küpper 3 , Isabelle Schöffl 4"
True! That same article also shows during another timeframe A2 to be higher than A4 though. Just a good reminder that epidemiology studies are of a select population during a select time. They are still helpful but not the gold standard.
This is the kind of content that needs to get more traction. So many videos that make claims without citing any sources or providing any hard evidence will get millions of views.
This is great. So much love. And this is so much fun! You missed the opportunity for the meme of the citation of the citation of the citation, but I forgive you this time. Can't wait for the next video!
This is such premium content it’s hard to believe it’s free. Thank you so much! You have a new subscriber! Strangely enough, I’ve never used a full crimp in the whole 1.8 years I’ve been climbing. I think I’m too scared to do it 😅
The dude's entire persona is about 'looking' smart. Its clear that he is just a layman poser. You show way more respect than this pomp warrants, but huge kudos to you for being a good person.
I always find fascinating how scientific method and critical thinking are so damn sexy in my eyes. Thank you for the simple yet exhaustive insight on the topic. Good work!
I’ve climbed a v9 and have used full crimp three times total… although it is super nice when it’s needed, I hardly find myself needing that extra power when form alone will usually get me through
I personally have had a partially torn A2 pulley on both of my ring fingers. Each injury took between 5-6 months of therapy and rehab to recover to the point where I could climb again.
Ryan from how it to is making a site to compile safety information for climbing maybe it would be a good Idea to colab and have one place where people can find all the information for climbing from how to train and prevent injuries to how to select gear and how it breaks
Most injuries from friends and other climbers have amounted to finger and wrist injuries. It is LIKELY that that the data shows an average of the typical climber. That being said all of the information i have been told first person is colloquial and maybe not representative of the full population. I have never had a pulley injury (luckily) but i have spoken to enough climbers to know that many climbers have injuries in the fingers/wrist area. to be fair, most climbers dont have this this problem, it is an average or baseline. Would love to see some conditioning video's from this channel. Thanks for being so candid in your reply, will subscribe from here on out.
Thanks for the comment and for subbing! Glad to hear you haven't had a pulley injury either. Hopefully some of the advice we listed can help continue to prevent this from occurring :)
Thanks for sharing. I just watched the other video and then saw yours. I have pain on where the MPJ of the mid fingers is, plus I feel my fingers are locked(specially the mid fingers) in the morning and can't close my fingers and grab on small things until a lot of warm up and wiggling. I try not to climb as much lately. Wonder if you have any video on injuries like this. Thanks
I always heard (and I try not to do it) is you should always let go of holds when you fall or when you are going to slip. The sheere force on the fingers when they suddenly have to bear to load of your falling body can injure your finger.
I pulled mine and went to the doctor immediately. Mine pulled on an open crimp with fresh arms. My Ortho is telling me 3 months minimum, but I can expect 6 months to recover. I'm not cadaver old, but closer than I'd like.
(2y late lol) i find it weird that tendon strength is given by the load (N) here and in Kyle’s video. Most materials reference the maximal stress (N/m^2) before failure as the strength, which generally normalizes for the effects of geometry. in vivo tendons adaptively thickened to handle climbing loads will hold larger forces, but the collagen and other connective tissue may not be necessarily stronger than in an unadapted tendon. So it doesn’t really make sense to say “the human A2 pulley can only take 400N”
If you'd like to help fellow climbers like Kyle understand, heal, and prevent injuries, consider liking this video and sharing it with others :) Let's show Kyle some love! Together we can build the largest library of FREE training and rehab information for climbers! 👊💪 UPDATE 07122022: - At 6:30, we say the article is from 2020. This is incorrect; the article is from 2001.
I'm a psychophysiologist and researcher on psychophysiological stress. These videos are incredible and help me understand the physical aspects of climbing. I think it would be helpful to discuss the psychological components of injury and injury prevention. Like bias, knowing what's going on in your head can help you be the best you.
I thought that the info at around 5:27 was the reason we shouldnt be training with crimping until failure (i.e slipping) because then there is a point where only one finger is left, and then we risk this injury... but Im not sure if I misunderstood. Like, yeah usually we wont be using one finger intentionally... Idk lol
Kyle for sure didn't mean to spread misinformation on purpose I think it was just a lack of research, and I think the video was intended to tell people to be careful which is admirable. I would love a follow up video from him to correct everything.
As a new climber who seemed to pick it up pretty quickly, i found Kyle’s vid pretty sus, as if just because he’d been climbing a long time automatically meant he was a good climber who knew what he was talking a out . Glad i came across this one to clear things up.
I had 2 pulley ruptures that were never diagnosed or treated - took like 9 months to heal and I have permanent stiffness and thick cysts on those tendons. It was quite obvious to self-diagnose. Loud popping sound when (stupidly) crimping during a fall, inability to pinch fingers for months, just healed slowly over time with taping and easy climbing. The taping mostly helps you from accidentally over-crimping or extending which hurts like a MF when you're injured. I recently had another (other hand) that was obviously just a strain, and was sore for a couple weeks. The bad injury happened early into my climbing. I consider myself much less susceptible to injury now for a few reasons: 1) I know my limitations better and will bail rather than push myself too far on crimps, 2) I use my feet and body better, 3) Years of finger strengthening through climbing. That said, I don't think anyone should be misled that climbing is consequence-free on your fingers. Repetitive stress will absolutely thicken your fingers, and make them a bit stiff/sore all the time. It's not debilitating, but there's a reason Alex Honnold's hands look like he works in a steel mill.
How common is an isolated a5 pulley injury? No loss of strength, no pain when loaded, but feels like a bruise just past the c3. Lots of info on a2/a3/a4, but hardly anything out there on the a5.
Hey Hooper! I was wondering if you could talk about the skin on climbers fingertips. Most of the time I can't go climbing more than once a week due to shredded skin. None of my friends is facing this problem and all I can find on the internet is how to get rid of excessive skin. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong while climbing or if I just have bad genetics (I'm climbing for several years now, so it's not due to being a beginner). Thanks for all the advices you are giving.
Right after the last climb of the day make sure to wash off the chalk. Get yourself a hand lotion that helps replace the things your skin needs. It will make your hands softer and speed up the healing process as they won't be wearing down as quickly or chapping. I think it is possible you may also have a genetic predisposition. I have only gotten back into climbing in the last 2 months, but I climb every 3-4 days for 2-3hrs on average and that is how long my hands take to fully recover each time as of now. My climbing calluses are starting to get thicker so I may be able to start climbing every 2-3 days.
If you’re in a newer gym with new holds they can be pretty abrasive; if you have access to some wooden holds (Tension Board, hangboards, etc) they aren’t going to chew through your skin as quickly and may help you build your skin’s tolerance. I’ve also found that most people need to climb at least twice a week to maintain their skin, otherwise their skin will stay soft and continue to not hold up to climbing very well. Additionally, you can use something a bit abrasive to hold/rub against your skin when not able to climb to keep your skin a bit harder (while recovering from a surgery I had a small chunk of sandstone that I’d idly handle while watching tv). For a lot of people I’ve met, climbing on rock can really help build up your skin, and at least for me, I always feel my skin is stronger after a climbing trip. Lastly, try to keep your skin dry while climbing, whether by using more/better chalk, or by using some of the drying agents on the market, such as from Rhino. Hopefully some of this will help you a bit
@@jacobgaylord9277 Hey, thanks for your advice. I recently ordered Rhino's "Mikeys Tip Juice" and it works like a charm. In only one week my skin toughened up so much, that I no longer have this problem. Guess my fingertips were just sweating too much. Luckily "Lattice Training" did a video on Climbing Skin Care, where this product was mentioned.
@@IsMirDochLattens That’s great news! Yea, when you said your skin shredded, that’s more common in soft/wet skin vs hard/dry skin (which are more likely to get splits). I’ve some friends that use that and also say they have great results, glad to hear you solved your problem!
Do changes in finger structure only happen with younger climbers or for people of any age? Specifically the tendon and bone thickening that you mention.
I have found that UTube videos where people speak like Kyle does; usually have more emotional content; than scientific data. It is how you get eyeball and clicks. And as I learned in grad school, there are many types of experts: The one fact expert; the one article expert; the one book expert; the one class expert ( everyone after general psychology); the I have a friend expert; the my learned experience expert; the it was my Minor expert; the it was my Major expert; an actual minor expertise with a Masters level; a major expert with a Doctorate; and the real expert who has a very good grasp on what they don't know. As a Medical Doctor friend of mine said: (he finished a Urology Residency): that if he devoted ten hours a day to reading the research on Pediatric Urology; he couldn't keep up with it. And we all are sure we could create peace in The Middle East and get people up their project if only everyone would take our beta. But what is good beta and how do you get people to accept it ? You do an excellent job of giving it and people seem to accept it. So some people think Buydumb and tRUmP are a bit old and out of touch: and there will be a job opening to any naturally born citizen; or do you stick to things you are actually competent at?
I’m in Korea and was thinking about making a general video just interviewing different climbers about the injuries they’ve had to hopefully help others have less of those same injuries. The video would be in Korean. What do you think?
@@HoopersBeta Right, like for instance… I was applying too much force on a heel hook pulling myself upward while my leg was twisted and from what I found out the popping noises where me partially tearing some band or ligament. Or- I haven’t done many pocket hold problems and haven’t trained finger strength too much so I’ve hurt my fingers s couple of times doing that.
Yes, Kyle's video is more personal and emotional (therefore fictional) than factual, but it gave us this video. ♥ In any case, people responding and correcting each other with love and respect is always inspiring and nice to see.
Is there a possibility of injuring a different part of your hand/finger with the three finger drag? For example, if I curl my pinky, I can feel some “pressure”(?) near the base of the fourth metacarpal.
Based on the physiology the A4 simply takes more force than the C2 which makes it much more likely to injury. In fact, it would be really hard to have an isolated C2 injury.
@@HoopersBeta Thx! I think the world would be very fascinated with a video explaining all the pulleys (including the Cruciate pulleys), given that such a video seems to be lacking from the internet and you seem to be the man for the job. :)
Would have been a lot better information in the video if he had collaborated with a doctor or PT that actually knew about climbing or the relevant anatomy... you know.. like your friendly neighborhood Hooper! Also gotta love when "award-winning science educators" don't provide sources, misinterpret bad research studies, and get basic anatomy wrong. I guess he did manage to teach me not to watch him lol
Oh man, there really is NOT a lot of climbing research literature. Having come from a sport with over half a century more research (power lifting), I'm *constantly* frustrated by how little climbing literature there is.
The fact the Kyle Hill compares pulley injuries in climbers to CTE in american football shows an exaggeration. Pulley injures are not unavoidable to be a successful climber!
The taping worked for me. Both of my middle fingers were swollen and crooked. After taping, my fingers started healing. They are no longer crooked or swollen, and I can make a normal fist. As others have mention, taping may not necessarily protect our fingers, but it might prevent us over relying on one finger. Whatever the reason, it worked for me.
Specific diagnosis for rehab and recovery is key! Sure you might be able to say "33% or more of climbing injuries are finger injuries" but that doesn't really help your rehab because there are many different types of finger injuries, each with their own rehab protocols :)
I love kyles channel and usually his videos check out but this video disappointed me. Just because there is a lot of stress doesn’t necessarily make it bad, just like knees over toes.
I feel like Kyle just speaks far too authoritatively for his level of expertise. Which is ok in some settings. But videos are a form of public information at this point, and I think its best if folks lean on the side of cautious when sharing information about complex phenomenon. It is nice when you don't have to sift through several bad sources to find the one or two sources on a subject which are clearly a cut above the rest, and I am regularly frustrated by these sorts of searches. Lowkey I also am just mad at folks who post crummy content. Sure you want money, but I don't want to waste time listening to an ignoramus.
Giving wild claims and awful simplifications will get you more views, but that'll probably kill you from inside Scientists, man (from a fellow engineer)
Thanks for the interest and the information Hooper. If you interpret what I say in my video as "YOU WILL GET INJURED 100%" then yes, that's wrong, but that's not what I said. Maybe we can have a longer conversation about my favorite sport.
Having seen both yours and his videos, I feel like you were talking about newer climbers that get super into it and injure themselves through overwork and new-hobby enthusiasm, while he was speaking from a more intermediate to higher level perspective that feels like you were being hyperbolic. Both very valuable perspectives, especially your warning about the pit-falls of climbing too hard, too quickly, and being injured instead of being able to climb like you want.
I think Hooper disagrees with you mostly when talking about people who have a bit more experience, but you were mostly warning newer climbers about the dangers of not taking care of your fingers/tendons, since they adapt slower than muscle it's harder to build them up as quickly as you progress, leading to higher injury risk.
Overall, I think both videos are great, with you warning new hobbyists about a hard-to-see pitfall, and Hooper educating from a medical-professional standpoint about what you can do to avoid it.
I watched your video yesterday and got this video recommened today.
I don't think this video was meant as a take down, but you did misinterpret data and then share those misinterpretations as fact
I still appreciated the video for introducing me to the physics of climbing and the potential risks, just seems like it needed some more thorough research
“I’ve injured myself 3 times … It’s unavoidable” - Kyle Hill
I mean, you kinda did say that "it's unavoidable".
Great video! Golden content as always.
Thanks so much!
Haha the ultimate seal of approval
This is probably the most respectful and factful response I've seen. Instead of roasting the video, all that was pointed out were the facts. It's great to see a movement towards research-based scientific thinking on the internet. Thank you for the great video!
I hope this video will get just as many views as Kyle's 628k views, because the factual inaccuracies are something that could hold people back from ever trying the sport. It sounds like if you start climbing, you will almost certainly get an injury like this at some point, which simply isn't true.
Thanks so much! Haha we would certainly be psyched if it got that many views
I've never heard of Kyle Hill, but I appreciate the respectful way you disagree with him. Instead of cutting him down every opportunity you get, you logically suggest where he may have gone wrong and why he may have done so. Thank you for the quality information!
Thank you! Always aiming to be constructive, not "destructive" :)
We need more UA-camrs like you to fight against misinformation 🙌
Thank you!
Thanks for the video! I am a Kyle Hill fan and also an intermediate level climber. Kyle's video made it sound like pulley injuries are practically inevitable with more advanced climbing. It is encouraging that you made the point that that's not necessarily the case and a climber's fingers can adapt as their climbing skill grows. As others have pointed out, I appreciate the respectful way you presented your rebuttal.
Thank you! Yes, our bodies are quite good at adapting :). With the right education and habits we can keep injuries to a minimum!
I really enjoy Kyle's videos, but one does need to view these with a pinch of salt. Kyle is an entertainer with a learn toward fun simplified education. I found Hooper's review to be fair and kind considering. I'd hope they would colab as they do share ideals I think.
Funny thing is, the reason I found your channel is because I saw that video and had a gut feel that it was fluff. I searched for something else and found your video 'Is Full Crimping Really More Dangerous for Climbers?'. Instantly subscribed, love your content!
Yes, Science! As a researcher, to listen/read opinions based on "google searches" and labelling them as "research" makes me boil inside. Thanks, J. For putting some serious thought into such an important topic for us, climbers. And, as a testimonial, I thank you for your video that helped my "trigger finger" heal in no time!! Tendon gliding works, dudes!!
So happy to hear that our video helped you heal up so quickly! That's awesome :)
And thank you for the kind words! We love doing the research and the work that goes into these videos but it's definitely appreciated to hear they are well received!
when that youtube fame hits you and putting out new videos to satisfy the viewers becomes a chore, thats when skimming through the articles becomes dangerous when information is misinterpreted and the masses take it as fact. then again, it falls onto the PT to re-educate and change their thinking…
The pressure to constantly create content makes UA-cam tough, especially when it comes to educational content. I see it as a team effort, though; when mistakes happen we can all pitch in to make it right!
Yessssir talk about constructive criticism! Love the factual analysis sprinkled with some memes but keeping it respectful towards Kyle's original video. This is exactly how we need to stop misinformation, not by shaming OPs.
We appreciate that! Can't go wrong with memes haha
Thank you for reviewing this video - it’s great to see this information collated and presented succinctly. I also appreciate your non-derogatory tone and support of a fellow UA-camr. Keep up the good work, this channel is excellent!
Thank you for the comment and support! Yeah absolutely, the last thing we want to do is try to break someone down just to build ourselves up. Happy that we were able to do that effectively!
That video popped on my feed not long ago due to a drought of quality climbing content and from the outset was getting psyched but ounce of information qualms. Glad to see such a rebuttal. Climbing already has too little solid research and too much bro science that we don’t need new content with misinformation.
Thanks for the comment! Glad you agreed with the comment about research haha I wish we had more! We constantly have to find the closest possible research for most categories since there isn't a lot of climber specific work (except for a few select categories).
So Lattice recently put out a video about A2 injuries and I found it pretty lacking. I commented with links to your comprehensive A2 video since I consider it the gold standard for free internet advice about that injury. Then I just happened to pop on over to your site right after and I see you've this video critiquing some A2 misinformation elsewhere on the internet. One by one, you and your audience will guide folks to the promised land of solid climbing rehab/prehab and training beta! Thanks for doing what you do, Dr. Hoops!
Thanks for spreading the word! Much appreciated!
Want to have a chat?
Absolutely! Here's our email: hoopersbeta@gmail.com
@@HoopersBeta Email sent
This channel is a blessing. :) I wish UA-cam was full of this high level quality content and it was being suggested by the algorithm, instead of cheap and easy TikTok-style clickbaits. I mean in general for all kinds of topics. We need more people who can actually interpret scientific papers and their application correctly, in particular, those armed with at least the basic understanding that correlation does not imply causation.
Thanks so much!
Actually there's a study that found more instances of A4 injuries than A2
" Injury trends in rock climbers: evaluation of a case series of 911 injuries between 2009 and 2012
Volker Schöffl 1 , Dominik Popp 2 , Thomas Küpper 3 , Isabelle Schöffl 4"
True! That same article also shows during another timeframe A2 to be higher than A4 though. Just a good reminder that epidemiology studies are of a select population during a select time. They are still helpful but not the gold standard.
Just found this channel, you are doing an amazing job giving free detailed information to prevent injury, thank you
This is the kind of content that needs to get more traction. So many videos that make claims without citing any sources or providing any hard evidence will get millions of views.
Thanks for the support! We agree :)
This is great. So much love. And this is so much fun! You missed the opportunity for the meme of the citation of the citation of the citation, but I forgive you this time. Can't wait for the next video!
Haha sorry for this missed meme but I thought Emile did a pretty great job overall with them. The "rest" one being a muscle was my favorite
This is such premium content it’s hard to believe it’s free. Thank you so much! You have a new subscriber!
Strangely enough, I’ve never used a full crimp in the whole 1.8 years I’ve been climbing. I think I’m too scared to do it 😅
The dedication and research details is always insane, thank you for the great content
Glad you enjoyed it! Our pleasure :)
Quality content as always, awesome!
excellent meme work
Some true 'laugh out loud'ers 😅
i cant get enough of hooper's videos. soo good
As always, well researched and respectful. Keep the videos coming!
Very good. I hope the future of humankind/social media is not average quality, shallow videos.
I think the more quality education that's available, the higher the standards will be
The dude's entire persona is about 'looking' smart. Its clear that he is just a layman poser. You show way more respect than this pomp warrants, but huge kudos to you for being a good person.
33% of the time, you get injured all the time. 👌
Haha classic 😅
It's unavoidable... unless you avoid it.
Awesome, informative video!
I always find fascinating how scientific method and critical thinking are so damn sexy in my eyes.
Thank you for the simple yet exhaustive insight on the topic.
Good work!
Thank you for the comment! Haha glad you find it valuable :)
I’ve climbed a v9 and have used full crimp three times total… although it is super nice when it’s needed, I hardly find myself needing that extra power when form alone will usually get me through
I personally have had a partially torn A2 pulley on both of my ring fingers. Each injury took between 5-6 months of therapy and rehab to recover to the point where I could climb again.
Glad to hear you recovered!
Ryan from how it to is making a site to compile safety information for climbing maybe it would be a good Idea to colab and have one place where people can find all the information for climbing from how to train and prevent injuries to how to select gear and how it breaks
I love the response videos :D
They're fun!
Most injuries from friends and other climbers have amounted to finger and wrist injuries. It is LIKELY that that the data shows an average of the typical climber.
That being said all of the information i have been told first person is colloquial and maybe not representative of the full population.
I have never had a pulley injury (luckily) but i have spoken to enough climbers to know that many climbers have injuries in the fingers/wrist area.
to be fair, most climbers dont have this this problem, it is an average or baseline. Would love to see some conditioning video's from this channel. Thanks for being so candid in your reply, will subscribe from here on out.
Thanks for the comment and for subbing! Glad to hear you haven't had a pulley injury either. Hopefully some of the advice we listed can help continue to prevent this from occurring :)
been waiting for this video
Kyle's dark metal whatever style is hilarious. Makes me barf while laughing.
Wow! Politely wrecked the dude! But for real, thanks for the EBP. You’re really simply killing it. : )
Thank you!
every climber i know that injured their a-2 is a sporadic climber. good to know that if you train consistently, it may not be 'inevitable'.
Train consistently... but allow for deload/rest weeks to allow your tissue to catch up ;)
Thanks for sharing. I just watched the other video and then saw yours. I have pain on where the MPJ of the mid fingers is, plus I feel my fingers are locked(specially the mid fingers) in the morning and can't close my fingers and grab on small things until a lot of warm up and wiggling. I try not to climb as much lately. Wonder if you have any video on injuries like this. Thanks
I always heard (and I try not to do it) is you should always let go of holds when you fall or when you are going to slip. The sheere force on the fingers when they suddenly have to bear to load of your falling body can injure your finger.
I pulled mine and went to the doctor immediately. Mine pulled on an open crimp with fresh arms. My Ortho is telling me 3 months minimum, but I can expect 6 months to recover. I'm not cadaver old, but closer than I'd like.
Am I the only one who found this Kyle guy saying“I have injured it three 'different' times”weird?
Probably varying degrees of injured or strained
Kyle is supposedly a high level climber AND science communicator and _still_ got so many things so wrong :C
Just because you claim something does not make it true.
Excellent, helpful video. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
(2y late lol) i find it weird that tendon strength is given by the load (N) here and in Kyle’s video. Most materials reference the maximal stress (N/m^2) before failure as the strength, which generally normalizes for the effects of geometry. in vivo tendons adaptively thickened to handle climbing loads will hold larger forces, but the collagen and other connective tissue may not be necessarily stronger than in an unadapted tendon. So it doesn’t really make sense to say “the human A2 pulley can only take 400N”
King of the Hill!
Please make a video about avulsion fracture
Can you specify a location? It can happen at multiple parts of the body :) I assume you mean finger but would rather double check with you first!
@@HoopersBeta yes, fingers. I met multiple people who had this injury and it seems to be common injury for people who use the moonboard too much
If you'd like to help fellow climbers like Kyle understand, heal, and prevent injuries, consider liking this video and sharing it with others :) Let's show Kyle some love!
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UPDATE 07122022:
- At 6:30, we say the article is from 2020. This is incorrect; the article is from 2001.
I'm a psychophysiologist and researcher on psychophysiological stress. These videos are incredible and help me understand the physical aspects of climbing. I think it would be helpful to discuss the psychological components of injury and injury prevention. Like bias, knowing what's going on in your head can help you be the best you.
I thought that the info at around 5:27 was the reason we shouldnt be training with crimping until failure (i.e slipping) because then there is a point where only one finger is left, and then we risk this injury... but Im not sure if I misunderstood. Like, yeah usually we wont be using one finger intentionally... Idk lol
Brilliant content
me likes this, just like the rest vidz, jo
Kyle for sure didn't mean to spread misinformation on purpose I think it was just a lack of research, and I think the video was intended to tell people to be careful which is admirable. I would love a follow up video from him to correct everything.
His fault was forgoing differing opinions and assuming his years of climbing was enough to cover the subject matter.
This is why Hooper is the king
Question... What about 1 finger pull ups? Doesn't that disprove all of that and also what's newtons on 1 finger pull ups?
As a new climber who seemed to pick it up pretty quickly, i found Kyle’s vid pretty sus, as if just because he’d been climbing a long time automatically meant he was a good climber who knew what he was talking a out . Glad i came across this one to clear things up.
hi, loved your answers..., saw that other video and have been awaiting awaiting your response
If you come across other videos that may be worthy of a double check be sure to share and let us know :) Thanks for the comment and support!
I had 2 pulley ruptures that were never diagnosed or treated - took like 9 months to heal and I have permanent stiffness and thick cysts on those tendons. It was quite obvious to self-diagnose. Loud popping sound when (stupidly) crimping during a fall, inability to pinch fingers for months, just healed slowly over time with taping and easy climbing. The taping mostly helps you from accidentally over-crimping or extending which hurts like a MF when you're injured. I recently had another (other hand) that was obviously just a strain, and was sore for a couple weeks.
The bad injury happened early into my climbing. I consider myself much less susceptible to injury now for a few reasons: 1) I know my limitations better and will bail rather than push myself too far on crimps, 2) I use my feet and body better, 3) Years of finger strengthening through climbing.
That said, I don't think anyone should be misled that climbing is consequence-free on your fingers. Repetitive stress will absolutely thicken your fingers, and make them a bit stiff/sore all the time. It's not debilitating, but there's a reason Alex Honnold's hands look like he works in a steel mill.
His source: trust me bro
great information bravo
How common is an isolated a5 pulley injury? No loss of strength, no pain when loaded, but feels like a bruise just past the c3. Lots of info on a2/a3/a4, but hardly anything out there on the a5.
Much harder to injure A5. If it's in that exact location I would consider FDP instead.
Here's why climbers get their pulleys injured- they don't use their feet enough. Thank you for coming to my ted talk
That's a great Ted talk! Thank you for sharing! :) (but really, good point!)
The Gumby Full Crimp Over-User vs The Chad Well-Rounded Grip Enjoyer
If you injured yourself 3 times on a pulley I feel you didnt listen to your body. Just listen to your body and youre 👍.
Hey Hooper! I was wondering if you could talk about the skin on climbers fingertips. Most of the time I can't go climbing more than once a week due to shredded skin. None of my friends is facing this problem and all I can find on the internet is how to get rid of excessive skin. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong while climbing or if I just have bad genetics (I'm climbing for several years now, so it's not due to being a beginner).
Thanks for all the advices you are giving.
Right after the last climb of the day make sure to wash off the chalk. Get yourself a hand lotion that helps replace the things your skin needs. It will make your hands softer and speed up the healing process as they won't be wearing down as quickly or chapping. I think it is possible you may also have a genetic predisposition. I have only gotten back into climbing in the last 2 months, but I climb every 3-4 days for 2-3hrs on average and that is how long my hands take to fully recover each time as of now. My climbing calluses are starting to get thicker so I may be able to start climbing every 2-3 days.
If you’re in a newer gym with new holds they can be pretty abrasive; if you have access to some wooden holds (Tension Board, hangboards, etc) they aren’t going to chew through your skin as quickly and may help you build your skin’s tolerance. I’ve also found that most people need to climb at least twice a week to maintain their skin, otherwise their skin will stay soft and continue to not hold up to climbing very well.
Additionally, you can use something a bit abrasive to hold/rub against your skin when not able to climb to keep your skin a bit harder (while recovering from a surgery I had a small chunk of sandstone that I’d idly handle while watching tv).
For a lot of people I’ve met, climbing on rock can really help build up your skin, and at least for me, I always feel my skin is stronger after a climbing trip.
Lastly, try to keep your skin dry while climbing, whether by using more/better chalk, or by using some of the drying agents on the market, such as from Rhino.
Hopefully some of this will help you a bit
@@jacobgaylord9277 Hey, thanks for your advice. I recently ordered Rhino's "Mikeys Tip Juice" and it works like a charm. In only one week my skin toughened up so much, that I no longer have this problem. Guess my fingertips were just sweating too much.
Luckily "Lattice Training" did a video on Climbing Skin Care, where this product was mentioned.
@@IsMirDochLattens That’s great news! Yea, when you said your skin shredded, that’s more common in soft/wet skin vs hard/dry skin (which are more likely to get splits). I’ve some friends that use that and also say they have great results, glad to hear you solved your problem!
Kyle hill has amazing videos on nuclear power and radiation. Climbing...not so much, but he's still worth checking out
Do changes in finger structure only happen with younger climbers or for people of any age? Specifically the tendon and bone thickening that you mention.
It can certainly happen in a very large age range! It's easier & faster at a younger age, and thus requires more patience at an older age :)
I have found that UTube videos where people speak like Kyle does; usually have more emotional content; than scientific data.
It is how you get eyeball and clicks.
And as I learned in grad school, there are many types of experts: The one fact expert; the one article expert; the one book expert; the one class expert ( everyone after general psychology); the I have a friend expert; the my learned experience expert; the it was my Minor expert; the it was my Major expert; an actual minor expertise with a Masters level; a major expert with a Doctorate; and the real expert who has a very good grasp on what they don't know.
As a Medical Doctor friend of mine said: (he finished a Urology Residency): that if he devoted ten hours a day to reading the research on Pediatric Urology; he couldn't keep up with it.
And we all are sure we could create peace in The Middle East and get people up their project if only everyone would take our beta.
But what is good beta and how do you get people to accept it ?
You do an excellent job of giving it and people seem to accept it.
So some people think Buydumb and tRUmP are a bit old and out of touch: and there will be a job opening to any naturally born citizen; or do you stick to things you are actually competent at?
I’m in Korea and was thinking about making a general video just interviewing different climbers about the injuries they’ve had to hopefully help others have less of those same injuries. The video would be in Korean. What do you think?
Sounds like it might be focused on anecdotal evidence?
@@HoopersBeta Right, like for instance… I was applying too much force on a heel hook pulling myself upward while my leg was twisted and from what I found out the popping noises where me partially tearing some band or ligament. Or- I haven’t done many pocket hold problems and haven’t trained finger strength too much so I’ve hurt my fingers s couple of times doing that.
constructive feedback, very good.
Thanks!
Yes, Kyle's video is more personal and emotional (therefore fictional) than factual, but it gave us this video. ♥ In any case, people responding and correcting each other with love and respect is always inspiring and nice to see.
Incredible!
Thank you!
Hey any advice for heel bursitis?
I'm not religious but you're doing god's work with these videos
Haha thank you! Much appreciated
since god doesnt do it, I guess we have to take it by our own hands and do his job :D
God merely exists/creates the religion; future adherents make his practices mean something and also adapt it to modern day.
6:30 A 2020 article from 2001.
Bro!
Good catch, thank you!
Is there a possibility of injuring a different part of your hand/finger with the three finger drag? For example, if I curl my pinky, I can feel some “pressure”(?) near the base of the fourth metacarpal.
Yes certainly if you flex at the MCP joint as well you could be causing strain/stress at the lumbrical muscle. We have a video about that actually!
oh weird that's Cliffs
Can you comment on C2 vs A4 pulley please? How would one know which one they injured?
Based on the physiology the A4 simply takes more force than the C2 which makes it much more likely to injury. In fact, it would be really hard to have an isolated C2 injury.
@@HoopersBeta Thx! I think the world would be very fascinated with a video explaining all the pulleys (including the Cruciate pulleys), given that such a video seems to be lacking from the internet and you seem to be the man for the job. :)
Would have been a lot better information in the video if he had collaborated with a doctor or PT that actually knew about climbing or the relevant anatomy... you know.. like your friendly neighborhood Hooper!
Also gotta love when "award-winning science educators" don't provide sources, misinterpret bad research studies, and get basic anatomy wrong. I guess he did manage to teach me not to watch him lol
Haha yeah that would have been great!
Oh man, there really is NOT a lot of climbing research literature. Having come from a sport with over half a century more research (power lifting), I'm *constantly* frustrated by how little climbing literature there is.
Agreed, it can get frustrating!
The fact the Kyle Hill compares pulley injuries in climbers to CTE in american football shows an exaggeration. Pulley injures are not unavoidable to be a successful climber!
You wore the hair better. ;) speaking of, what happened? :P
Haha thanks! Finally got long enough for me to donate it :)
The taping worked for me. Both of my middle fingers were swollen and crooked. After taping, my fingers started healing. They are no longer crooked or swollen, and I can make a normal fist.
As others have mention, taping may not necessarily protect our fingers, but it might prevent us over relying on one finger. Whatever the reason, it worked for me.
They would have started healing no matter what. It's what fingers do.
I get all my advice from Jim Hearsay - he's a very clever guy!
He always seems to be around! :P
isn't this the same with every sport? 33% even sounds low to me, i expected it to be more.
Honestly , I mean I imagine in parkour 90% of the injuries are ankle injuries , at least for me they are 90% of my injuries
Specific diagnosis for rehab and recovery is key! Sure you might be able to say "33% or more of climbing injuries are finger injuries" but that doesn't really help your rehab because there are many different types of finger injuries, each with their own rehab protocols :)
Wait what's your opinion on tape??
We have an older video on the subject but are also working on an updated version :)
I love kyles channel and usually his videos check out but this video disappointed me. Just because there is a lot of stress doesn’t necessarily make it bad, just like knees over toes.
True, the body is so adaptable/capable! Time and patience, now that's the real struggle :)
Have you heard of Gell-Mann Amnesia?
I feel like Kyle just speaks far too authoritatively for his level of expertise. Which is ok in some settings. But videos are a form of public information at this point, and I think its best if folks lean on the side of cautious when sharing information about complex phenomenon. It is nice when you don't have to sift through several bad sources to find the one or two sources on a subject which are clearly a cut above the rest, and I am regularly frustrated by these sorts of searches.
Lowkey I also am just mad at folks who post crummy content. Sure you want money, but I don't want to waste time listening to an ignoramus.
Giving wild claims and awful simplifications will get you more views, but that'll probably kill you from inside
Scientists, man (from a fellow engineer)
Remember this dude is also overweight. Especially for a climber.
There was a certain cringiness on that Kyle dude video...especially that interview part...dude..
Algogogogo
Thx
Welcome.
Hehe this
i am extremely bothered by the way your head and face moves in the bottom right corner