Mormonism's WILD History with Birth Control
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- Опубліковано 31 сер 2023
- Even as someone who grew up in the church, this was SHOCKING to me! Let's hear your thoughts in the comments!
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I was never mormon, I grew up in a 90% mormon school and I remember one of my friends in highschool said "why did your mom only have 4 kids? I feel like that's selfish"... I was so confused.
Holy mackerel. Imagine a school child feeling that it was fine to ask that question and pronounce that judgement!! Have you ever fantasized about going back in time, but with your adult poise, so you could respond with, "My mom's choices for the size of our family are private. She might have felt it would be selfish to have more kids than she could love, nurture, and educate adequately. She's a pretty smart and ethical gal, and I think she's selfless where it makes sense, and smart about managing her family overall." I don't know-- maybe you would be a little more pointed about the etiquette of asking personal questions and critiquing somebody's mother.
Sorry to jump inn again but , another thing that you mentioned is “ abomination” It was doctrine that Jesus had said to Jo Smith that all existing churches were an “ abomination “ Think about that for a second ! That he should start a new authentic church , and that requires so many changes in Mormon doctrine ( but that book is now banned ) over the short history of the church . Like washing powder , New improved formula !
And me being 44 and a convert with no kids no wonder why I felt like I didn’t fit it 🤷♂️
I had women leaders in our ward between 1996 to about 2013 continuing to TEACH that birth control was wicked in relief society meetings and claiming that birth control pills were abortion inducing and using them was committing murder..The male leaders in the ward knew about it and did not stop it
OMG!! I would be confused too!!
As a teen I needed birth control to help with health problems I was having, but was denied coverage of it by my insurance because my dad worked for the church. My doctor fought tooth and nail for me, and wrote many letters to prove I wasn't using it to prevent pregnancy. It's about control and always has been. I also believe they only started to cover it for employees recently because they were getting in trouble for not being compliant with the Affordable Care Act.
If it had been marketed as "period moderation" at the start maybe people wouldn't have gotten so bent out-of-shape. That IS why so many people take it.
The twisted irony is how they covered Cialis for erectile disfunction before the covered "birth control" for hormone control.
@@Gideonslc "Help. I'd like to not be doubled over with endometriosis."
"Sorry. No can do."
"Hey, I've got a date with this girl tonight and..."
"Here you go. No copay. We're good."
When I was Mormon I remembered feeling so bad that I could only have two children. I almost died having them, and then became infertile. I wanted more but I think if I hadn’t been Mormon I wouldn’t have felt bad and been so hard on myself. I had a lovely family and that is enough. I know we’re talking about birth control here, but this has just always bothered me.
Its about constant guilt and shame so you are always in a state of repentance
Two is the perfect number! A friend of mine once said; You should never have more children than you have hands! And having two children, one in each hand while crossing streets, going to events, his words were never truer!
@@annehersey9895 😊😊😊
I've always hated being around kids and wasn't too keen on the idea of having them. As I got into my mid-20's, my desire to not have children grew much stronger. However, due to the church's teachings on it, I felt like it was something that was going to happen to me whether I wanted it or not; I never felt like I had a choice. That led to me secretly hoping something would be "wrong" with me that would prevent me from being ABLE to have them, so I wouldn't be punished by God and guilted by the church for not having them.
I'm in my 30's now and left the church a little over a year ago. Almost immediately after discovering it's all a farce, a huge sense of relief and realization washed over me that I do have a choice. I can happily say I'm now firmly childfree and plan on remaining that way, with no guilt or shame.
When I was 13 I told my parents (baptists, not Mormons) that I didn't want to have kids and it turned into a whole dramatic thing. There was crying, my mom saying she must not be a good mother if I would make a decision like that, they told me it was a sin to not procreate, and even after the initial dramatics calmed down they would regularly bring it up. Once they told me they hope I get pregnant on accident, which is a disgusting thing to say. I'm 27 now and still don't want kids, now they are a little more respectful and say "*IF* you have kids one day..." which is nice. I love my parents but there's certain things I don't "come out" to them about because of how it went the first time.
that's so crazy, it's like treating you like an incubator
Ex husband and I got into a huge argument over this. I was pregnant with number six and my OB advised me to get my tubes tied during the scheduled c section (my third c section). My OB was, at the time, serving in his own bishopric as a counselor, for the record. My ex (btw, a former bishop) was so offended and opposed to the medical advice, quoting the "prophets" and the bishop's handbook about how we are supposed to have as many kids as possible. My OB kind of had the attitude of: I don't care what the handbook says (and he would know), this is about your life and health. Ten days after giving birth, I developed a pulmonary embolism and almost died, spending several days back in the hospital. Thankfully I recovered. Two years later, I developed a large ovarian cyst that needed to be surgically removed, and this time without consulting the ex, my OB and I decided to tie my tubes during that surgery instead. My ex always made me feel inferior about how much bigger (and in his eyes, better because of it) his family is than mine. He is one of ten, I am one of four. He has 75+ cousins on one side of his family, I have ten total. While I wouldn't give up any of my kids for anything, especially the youngest, I should have stopped at four. My health has suffered so much being pregnant/nursing for thirteen years straight.
😭😭😭
Like a right of privacy for medical carry, it seems I heard that somewhere.
Sorry you had health problems. I joked with my mom and said “we’ll at least Mormons don’t have 6 kids with 6 baby daddies like some women outside the church “
I’m so sorry you were treated with such manipulation. Your ex is a jerk and emotionally/psychologically/spiritually abusive…. And borderline physically abusive with continuing to pressure you to place your body in such high risk for disability and potential death.
I’m so glad you were able to leave him. You’re strong. You’re valuable and you are an inspiration! Thanks for sharing your story.
@@BrianWaller-qe7gr that’s a really rude joke and I must admit I’ve never known any woman who has had six kids from six baby daddies. Seems like yet another trope to scare momos of “the world.” Here’s the testimony I used to say AND hear all the time: “I’m so grateful I’m a member of the church… I don’t know where I would be without it (maybe strung out on drugs, having six babies with six different men, etc).”
Then I left the church and realized there are myriad humans who are good people, not strung out in drugs and not having six kids w six men. Most people just live good, normal lives.
My wife is very petite (4' 9"), and had to have C-sections for both our children, or she would have died. She risked her life to have our kids, and we agreed to have her tubes tied during the second C-section. A hundred years ago, she would have not survived. But the Church would condemn her for "not having enough kids".
As another husband whose wife struggled with pregnancy and birthing, I'm glad your wife is okay and so happy you both agreed to protect her.
I heard all growing up that birth control was evil and not okay. I got on birth control the month before I got married at 19, in 2003, and was looked down on by my, now ex, in laws for not having kids immediately and that we were committing sin by not having kids right away.
When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s, a hugely popular source of Mormon entertainment was "Saturday's Warriors". This was a play, a movie, a soundtrack, etc. And what topic made up half of the story? Birth control.
Ew.
Just "ew."
Yep. I remember that musical
Oh yes. Blah... "We all got daddy's nose 🐽👃" I want this erased.
Not just the church leadership that makes couples with infertility, but the membership does a stellar job of making you feel lesser and more damned if you don't pump out children.
I remember in my twenties how defeated I felt because I hadn't even gotten married, let alone having children yet! The focus is so much on getting married and having children as a woman. It boggles my mind that they're willing to pay for birth control now! Crazy!
The church really did a 180 on this one. As usual, with no explanation abd followed by gaslighting. They REALLY don't like admiting any fault. I can't wait until I'm in my old age and some 18 year old missionary tries to tell me how the church has always been LGBTQ friendly and that gay marriage is fine.
"Fleshly Tabernacles" would be a great metal band name! Someone should start a band with that name.
I'm older gen z, and I knew it was a thing, but only specifically because I remember what a big deal it was to my mom, deciding to get my sister birth control due to the insanely painful periods she had. She tettered for a bit before deciding helping my sister not be a ball of agony regularly was more important
My father in law worked for the church and I remember my wife being on his insurance when we got married. It’s true they would not cover any contraceptives. They wouldn’t even do permanent contraceptives like vasectomies or tubal litigations until after a certain amount of pregnancies, I believe it was 5 or 6. No matter the situation. Even if it was deemed dangerous to be pregnant or give birth. Crazy stuff.
After 6 high risk pregnancies and 4 c-sections (on another insurance now) we finally tied the tubes.
Now being out of the church I can’t believe my wife or I thought that was a good idea. Even her Mormon doctor thought we were nuts.
Thanks for talking about this. I would add that in the mid 1970’s the condoms were hidden behind the pharmacy counter and I had a girlfriend who was openly shamed by the pharmacist for being too young to bee buying birth control. Lack of opportunities for accessing birth control caused great harm to sexually active youth who also had no access to abortion in Utah. This attitude of practically forcing to young sexually charged youth to have babies was as important in keeping them under control as sending young men on missions at the time when they are at their lifetime horniness peak. After a mission they have become so sex crazed that they crave getting married immediately. Talking about keys to the kingdom, these are the keys to controlling the hearts and minds of vulnerable youth.
My cousin and his wife were infertile. They spent tens of thousands on every possible medical procedure, and tried everything, but to no avail. His wife was hounded incessantly by her RS "sisters" why she didn't have any kids. Every time she gained even just a little bit of weight, they would ask her, "Are you finally pregnant?" It was very painful for her. After two decades, they adopted, which DIRECTLY led to the destruction of their "celestial" marriage.
How does adoption destroy their celestial marriage? (I'm a nevermo)
The girl they adopted was pure evil, and destroyed their marriage. They ended up getting divorced over her.@@fluffyduckbutt24
Maybe bcuz they are not doing what the teachings/ scriptures etc, and not replenishing the earth and multiplying.
He's in jail now for CSA...@@fluffyduckbutt24
Early 70s - I remember someone from high priests quorum approaching me , putting his arm around me and saying “ Isn’t it time you started a family ? “ I’d been married two weeks .
Gross. I am so sorry that happened to you.
I’ve learned more about Mormonism from your channel than in all of my years in the church😂 would love a deep dive on different points from the CES letter!
When I was a Mormon in a prayer before a meeting of one of the many "opportunities to serve" organizations that Mormons can dedicate their time to, a guy, in the prayer, asked God to bless me with children. I was infertile due to childhood rape by a member of the Catholic clergy. People would offer advice on "how to get pregnant," techniques and positions to try, between meetings in the the foyer. Gross!!! I finally got tired of the question, "why don't you have children?", and started answering that it was because we only have oral sex. I was told my answer was rude; my reply was, a rude question deserves a rude answer.
For a church that doesn't want you to have sex before marriage, they sure want someone to bust a move and birth an entire ward. Geeeeez.
They put so much sexual guilt on a person. I remember one brother who embarrassed himself for asking our Bishop ," Is it considered masturbation if I lean against the washing machine while it washes ?"
I remember reading this! Thank goodness i was already out, but me and my never-mormon husband were absolutely gobsmacked! I am working towards working in OB-GYN in the future specifically to combat toxic ideals and harmful misinformation like this. Thanks for bringing this up!
I'm recently a non believing Mormon. My Mormon heritage goes back on both my parents families to Joseph Smith. Yes it is very true the teachings of birth control from the church was, never use birth control. If you did, I was taught that it was the same as murder. I have 7 children all of which are non believers. I was the last of my immediate family to leave the church. I have 2 daughters that are upset with me that I didn't teach them about birth control. I didn't know anything about birth control! Like I said it was evil in my day. I married in 1980. In fact while you were reading what the church says now about birth control, blows my mind! The church is constantly changing policies and doctrine so fast, I got whiplash and had to leave. Everyday I find something else that makes me go, hmmm. . .
Yes! I was very aware that the Church was against birth control! I knew they no longer said you couldn't use it, but I still felt so guilty using it when I first got married. I was so happy when my husband and I decided I'd go off it. I knew he wasn't ready to be a dad yet, but he was willing to help me not feel guilty. Thankfully, it was over a year before we got pregnant, and by that time, he was ready and eager to be a father.
I don't understand how they're against family planning. They refuse to understand that people should become parents when you're ready! Like in your situation!
As one of your older early subscribers to your channel and sent down the rabbit hole by your first video, I can definitely say that teachings about sex and marriage and birth control were barely, barely starting to slowly change when my wife and I were your age in the 1970s. We struggled a lot with rationalizing birth control with our church faithfulness at that time. We had four kids before we finally quit and sometimes felt somewhat uncomfortable when compared to the few church friends who were having large families. I loved the talk Elder Holland gave where he says "the world moves this far, and then the church moves this far" It definitely seems an accurate assessment. I don't especially remember specific teachings but know we were encouraged to bear children.
I am against birth control for irreligious reasons. Why do irreligious people abort in the name of disability discrimination? Iceland has already attempted genocide on people with Down Syndrome, irreligious people are looking for prenatal testing for other disabilities, abortion is clearly done in the name of disability discrimination, racism, and sexism.
Basically, irreligious people want another discriminatory racist Eugenics Movement supporting Nazism.
It is the intention that matters to me, would of the person aborted the fetus regardless of individual differences or are they aborting in discrimination and genocide?
My husband was never a member and that’s one of the things that he can’t stand about the church (there are a lot lol). And one of the reasons why I’ve decided in the past few months to leave. He can’t stand how the church pushes members to get married so young and pop out as many kids as they can. We decided to only have 2 and have seen more and more families have only a couple kids, but it’s still very evident that a lot of families take the whole “multiply and replenish” party VERY seriously.
The church's entire idea surrounding marriage and families is pretty old fashioned if you ask me. You expect us to have 5+ children? In THIS economy???
My adult kids now: "they're expecting us to have one kid now? In THIS economy?"
@@Insightfilljust pay your tithing and you’ll be ok 🙄 meanwhile mormon corporation has hundreds of billions. Mofo’s
"Tabernacle of Flesh," sounds like something the Cenobite Pinhead said somewhere sometime in the Hellraiser series. Picture Pinehead is his blood curdling voice, "Tabernacle of flesh," LMFAO. 😂
@@PrismaticCrafter 🤣 Love it. Great series!!!
My friend was raised by a single mom and born out of wedlock. I vividly remember her saying her mom was graped because that was less shameful than just doing the deed before marriage. 😳😵💫 so much to unpack there.
My mom hated me for not wanting more after three and I got my tubes tied and she said don’t be surprised if John dies and I can’t get remarried
That's horrible. I'm sorry.
Using your own brain and making decisions for yourself is always a "REBELLION AGAINST GOD" 🙄
Gotta love the reference to the husband sacrificing sex while his wife has babies. The inference being that women dont have a desire to have sex themselves.....no reference to her sacrifice there.....just that she gets a break .
yup. women are treated as nothing more than objects to please men and pop out babies. it makes me feel physically sick and I'm so so happy I'm out of this cult now. that was one of the big things that gave me a lot of distress - the thought of having to just... do what my future husband wanted, sacrificing my own desires for him. I didn't even WANT a husband. I still don't
What well done research. Brava 👏
So many of these quotes I never heard, but I am not surprised and it explains SO MUCH about Mormon culture, especially in Utah valley.
I think it's hilarious when ladies at the Boise supermarkets who have six or ten kids running around complain about how crowded the valley is getting.
In 1979 I attended a weekend youth conference/camping trip, and the Saturday night we had a priesthood fireside where the speakers were a young couple I knew who had recently married, and were asked to talk to the youth about what to expect. They were quite open, and when they talked about sexual relationships they admitted that they were practicing birth control, as they felt they wanted to wait until they were emotionally and financially ready, and more mature before having children. I swear jaws were dropping with that admission. (They would have their first child a couple years later). I think they made the right decision.
My birth was traumatic and my mom eventually lost her fertility. My parents were converts. My mom had another daughter from a previous marriage. I don't know how they would have felt without the church but I believe my mom hated me partially for this reason. We were regularly asked by idiots at church why I was an only child (my older sister was never at church).
My dad was also extremely bitter aboutnot having more kids especially no son. He'd joke all the time about getting a sister wife to have all the babies he was owed.
A couple of times old people would say that I would need to have extra kids to make up for it. Basically that my sibling souls that were owed to my dad weren't allowed to be born so I could somehow have extra kids when I grew up and got married. I remember being completely repulsed at the thought of it.
Anytime anyone at church would bring it up it was an automatic road to me getting abused later at home. In no other situation did anyone ever ask about why there weren't more kids. Only the noisy church people couldn't stop themselves from causing pain in this way. Of course it wasn't their fault that my parents reaction to pain was to take it out on me but still.
The idea that a man has some pre set number of souls due to him is so dangerous.
I didn't realize they were so extreme on the birth control but seriously though, that's a polar opposite view from the current. I think this is why we all need to be very aware of changes and if The church contradicts itself many many times. There's definitely a problem.
I was a member in the early 90’s. I asked about birth control and was told. Plan to have a family.
Control control control. That’s all they want from you. Promise of a life after death isn’t worth it for me. Peace.
I am 50 years old and have been a member my whole life. When I was in the restroom nursing my 1st baby at church, there was a lady in there with 5 kids ages 7 and under, nursing her newborn. While talking to her, we discovered that we had the same OB/GYN. She said, "Yeah, the doctor called me the other day and asked me to come to his office for an appointment to talk about birth control." Then she looks at me with a sheepish grin.
Despite being a life-long Gen-X, I never regarded the teachings of the leadership regarding having children. I did however, feel a lot of shame for being one of the few families in our ward to only have three kids. Everyone in our ward at the time had 5+ kids. I was in the Primary Presidency in the early 2000's. We had 97 kids in our Primary.
God has no difficulty overcoming a virgin conception but somehow hormonal shifts or a bit of rubber is interfering in god's will.
I’m one of only two kids my parents had. They never used birth control and my dad thinks it’s evil. It wasn’t until fairly recently I could persuade my mom on switching her views because of the medical applications exclusively (and honestly those applications are probably why the church rolled back a bit on it). Even so I remember the looks and comments my family got behind our backs or passive aggressively because I “only” had a single sibling. I was painfully aware growing up in the church how abnormal that was. They definitely have the old age view where I grew up. Fast forward to now and both of us are married but one left and one stayed in the church. Now that we’re in that same time of our lives it’s interesting that both of us decided to not go immediately into motherhood so something probably changed. I don’t know how her ward treats her now that it’s been awhile and she’s yet to be pregnant but she doesn’t seem pressured by people, just the general “have to at some point” the church instills in its members.
I'm an only child and my mother was constantly criticized for only having me. But her body literally would not allow her to have anymore. It's DISGUSTING how the church seems to encourage the mentality of poking noses into women's business and trying to take away their personal rights, choices, and even just criticizing them for things they cannot help.
@@fluffyphoenix8082what I don’t understood as a convert is why people in the church so hung up on what others think of them. I do what I want and don’t give a rats what people think of it. I do what makes me happy no the approval of others. Maybe because I’ve always be a introverted loner. I since stopped attending because it was pretty obvious I didn’t fit in because being mid 40’s no kids and really no dating options just felt like it was pointless
In all honesty that church has been the most judgmental place I’ve ever been, despite it being pounded in our heads that we shouldn’t judge. I’d be the first to admit how judgmental I was when I was within their grasp. I once said I was in a serious relationship with a non-mormon to a lady I thought was chill and the first thing she asked without hesitation was a judgmental “you’re not living with him right?!” Like lady. That was your first thought? That I was living with him? When I was still deeply rooted in all of it. The amount of judgement, especially with the women- I’d get the most drama gossip after relief society- is incredibly insane and that doesn’t include that toxic gender imbalance or anything. It’s definitely not the Christ-like behavior people like that pretend they are emulating.
@@lostmysteries6870 one of my missionaries treated me like dog crap by treating me like I didn’t exist to them. It was shocking but I then realized if my own missionary could treat me like this the church wasn’t for me then. Mind you this is the same missionary that told me in one of the discussions and I quote “Jesus loves you he really does”. I was going to say “ he has a funny way of showing it then” but i decided to say nothing and be respectful
Thank you for this is always on point. ❤
Ooooh, Tabernacles of flesh... sounds like an amazing idea for Halloween decorations!
Oh I can already tell that this is gonna be controversial. I've had family members with life threatening periods who've needed to go on birth control.
The Catholic Church instituted celibacy for its Priests back in the day. Why? When an unmarried priest dies what happens to all his assets? It goes to the church. Celibacy was essentially a fundraiser, couched in piety, to help finance large church building projects. Pre-existence, having a large number of children. is just a church populating method couched in piety. The New Testament cares little to nothing about how many children a couple have.
Remember, more children = more tithe paying members.
That's what it's really all about.
@@unicorntamer2207 Really? Oh man, and I've been wasting all this time doing the hokie-pokie!
I remember in the '70s it was still widely discouraged, although there was a recognition that there were "special cases" when it might be necessary, such as if it were unsafe for a woman to be pregnant... although even in those cases it was still stigmatized. Even in the '90s my wife and I were counseled by our bishop not to use it. The Lord would send spirits when he needed them, he said. It was not for us to decide.
I love that they asked MEN about Birth control, what reliable sources 🤣
As far as I and my mom can remember, in the 80s and 90s the line was "let the children come as they may using wisdom", I would say that this was the transtional wisdom before the modern willingness to fund birth control with insurance. I grew up with the knowledge that the church felt like you really shouldn't do much to prevent babies especially right at the beginning of marriage I personally disagreed with this based on my parent's experience of a full-term stillbirth very shortly after their marriage. For me, the advice and direction of the church contradicted my own conscience and was definitely a shelf item
What I have learned is when things change in the church a common rebuttal is. Sometimes God just wants to see if we can be obedient there is no other reason behind it. It's just a way of blindly following without question
Fleshy tabernacles evokes about the same threshold of disgust when Mormons say “moisture”.
Another great video Lex! I really like your videos because they are short and to the point. Other Exmo stuff is usually waaaay long. Are you familiar with the LDS Discussions series in the Mormon stories podcast? I would love to see videos touching on highlights from those discussions, you know, like little baby mouthfuls of the most interesting points. It's a lot to go through, but something to consider for future content.
Ty for this ❤
Exmo Lex what about being disabled or physically can't have kids like what the heck! So do they just not qualify or something? That is so messed up!! Thanks for enlightening on this issue.
I think the policy changed when they realized it was so unpopular that it impacted their membership and recruitment and potential tithing intake. Money is always their motivation.
I remember sometime in the '70's when the GA's released a letter ostensibly giving instruction about birth control. When the Quorum President finished reading we all looked at each other and said, outloud, what was the point because there was no actual commandment, instruction, suggestion or anything. Finally it was sort of decided by some that we had to read between the lines, that is where the actual commandment resided. WTF..... I had already made a decision on that subject and it wasn''t what they wanted to hear. That may have been the beginning of my apostasy.
A little unrelated but I just heard a story about a Nevada brothel near the Utah border, offering 10% off for Utahans. Madam Cummins said the good people of Utah really saved her business during COVID. :)
Thanks for your diligent research.
Thanks for this, really interesting. I like your point on the wild shift in policy.
One point of pivoting to birth control/having less kids was when there were so many single mothers with multiple kids relying on the church welfare system because their ex husband was not stepping up. I think this was early 90s. My mom was one of those single mothers. She had three kids which was the same as how many her parents had, but my dad was one of seven kids.
I can't tell you how many times I watched the 1989 version of "Saturday's Warrior" as a kid. The evils of birth control and the expectation to have as many kids as possible to avoid leaving them behind are explicit.
The reason for the change is obvious! We're at the very tail end of the very last days and they're running out of spirits in heaven to send to Earth! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
my favorite aunt and uncle stopped at 3 kids born in 4 years 2 girls one of whom had severe epilepsy as a child and a boy the kid drive a Toyota Camry an Acura RL and a Toyota Prius respectively their parents drive a Toyota Corolla and An Acura TL granted my late maternal grandmother also drove a Toyota Camry for 26 yrs. she stopped driving for medical reasons just shy of her 83rd birthday in 2016 and passed away of a stroke on January 22nd 2022 aged 88
As a 50 something ex mo I remember getting married. 30 years ago. My parents saying birth control is ok. Grandparents, ummm not so much. There was definitely a generational doctrinal divide. I put the difference of opinion on the shelf and chocked it up to the old dudes thinking like Catholics. I kinda heard some old leaders pratting on about evil birth control, but, you know, prophets sometimes speak as men with opinions that reflect their time. But ya, some of these guys said some pretty serious shit about birth control. Who knew?
I was mormon for 40 years and my husband even spent time as a bishop. We moved for his job on the average of every two years. And it seemed like every time I was pregnant. I was packing up and moving or I had just moved, or I was planning a move. I decided that the three girls I had was going to be enough and that I needed to be a sane mom of three instead of an insane crazy mom of six. When I was in the hospital after my third was born, getting my tubes tied, my bishop happen to come in to see me. The hospital staff told him where I was and what my surgery was and he never talk to me again or called me to a position.
I also wanted to add that we are taught the old testament is the old law of Moses. Christ fulfilled that life when he came to earth. we are taught in the church, that we no longer need to follow the Jewish law, which was given to Adam and Eve to go forth multiply and replenish the Earth. If what they’re saying is true that we follow Christ law, then why are they going back to scripture in the old mosaic law and telling us we have to go forth and multiply? to meet us doesn’t make sense. I’m glad that at the time I was in the church I had a brain and could think for myself so many don’t.
Sorry…voice to text😢
I think this is most revealing on how.. bad? difficult? inadvisable? it is to have a church that preaches eternal doctrine while also being updatable and extremely well-recorded. I'm sure many, many churches were saying similar things about birth control in the same years as the mormon church, but your average evangelical church thinks of itself as having the bible as the only guideline and the pastor's words as a human interpretation and not scripture in itself, so it doesn't really matter in the long run, and no one wrote down the sermons to remember that they said such things.
meanwhile, mormons both believe their prophets can essentially write new scripture that is then supposed to be immutable into the future, and seems to record damn near everything they say and keep it extensively catalogued. The holes of humans being humans, looking to choose a side on every new issue that comes up and state their unique opinion, and then changing their mind without realizing it the moment the culture shifts to a new norm, becomes clear very quickly.
put simply, there's nothing that surprising about weird old church men having bad opinions about birth control when it was a hot button topic that their modern church ignores in favor of the modern cultural norms. What is problematic is those men's words being given the authority of deity at the time and the consequences of that for a church that also claims to have an unchanging god
Fleshly Tabernacles: Yep, sounds like a sixties rock group.
I new the church didn't agree with birth control when I was a member yet I never heard some of the crazy talk from some of the leaders.
We only had 3 kids. When I was a member, I would tell people that the commandment was to multiply and replentish; 2 kids had replenished, and the 3rd had multiplied, so I was good.
wow your good ... fab content and research ... top job man x
I was told birth control was bad in seminary in the early 2000's
This is a funny episode of your podcast. It is important to note that in Joseph F Smith day, it was illegal for women to have access to contraception. It didn't become legal to use to contraception until 1930. In 1965 the supreme Court even made that stronger, by saying the display of contraceptive items does not violate obscenity laws. Just to recap before 1930 it was illegal to use condoms. Even after 1930 communities would charge people with obscenity for having them on display in their store for sale.
Now when I was at Rick's College in 1984 I had a professor Bishop/Doctor Hines, loved this guy. I attended his marriage and family class, he was a professor in the psychology department. "He said every person's spiritual, mental and physical well-being is their personal and divine stewardship. He said when you get married when you choose to have kids is entirely your business. He said you have a responsibility to take care of yourself, spiritually, mentally and physically. He said regardless of how long you been married, you have to make sure you don't have children until you are spiritually mentally and physically capable of managing that responsibility, you don't let anybody judge you for making that decision on your own with your spouse. It is nobody's business but yours and God's. You just ignore that little old lady in your ward with her raised eyebrow, her opinion does not matter and what she thinks of your decision is none of your concern."
Those church leaders who thought that way, in the past, possessed Neolithic incompetence!
I grew up Mormon and I got on BC when I was 16 (serious health reasons) but I was the one to take my single friends to either get on the pill (before their weddings) or buy & teach them how to use condoms for their bridal showers😈😈😂😂😂Everyone called them “Little Bags of Sin!”😂😂 funny but really sad when you think about it.
Women get judged more for being child free by choice, especially if they are in a heterosexual marriage and even more so if that marriage is long-term, than any divorcee or spinster.
My husband is a former army NCO who was stationed in Germany when he wasn't deployed, so I was a stay at home wife over there (this was 2008-2009?). I don't know if other women ever experienced this, but while in the military whenever I met a new spouse, I was asked these questions in this exact order: What unit is your husband in? What's his rank? How many kids do you have? What's your name? The fact that we had no children and didn't plan on having any was apparently the most confounding thing any of them had ever heard. Being atheists didn't help with the confusion we seemed to cause. We're social pariahs in military circles, but we run one hell of a D&D campaign, and I always got included in the bar hopping. 😂🤙
The Fleshy Tabernacle Choir rocks man!
Hahahaha
From grow up in the church to now. I noticed they do a lot of Peer pressure. From my prospective as a man it’s like from the age
0-8 get baptized
8-12 get the priesthood
12-18 go on a mission
18-20 (on mission) get married when you get home
20-25 get married
25-40 have as many kids as possible
I didn’t go on my mission til I was 19. I wasn’t ready at 18. I got a lot of looks from the super Mormons. Now being home 7years not married. I get the why haven’t you gotten married yet?
failure to do the horizontal bop is therefore a form of birth control
When I had #6, my husband said, “He’s so cute. We should have more!” He was almost 9 lbs., and my Dr said they would keep getting bigger! I HAD MY TUBES TIED!!! I’m 80 now.
Maybe a woman made it on to the decision committee? Maybe birth control seemed a necessary PR move as abortion bans started up? I believe there is still a temporary ban on the proposed Utah law that will close all abortion clinics (where 95 percent of the abortions are performed). I am curious to learn if the permission to use birth control is close in time to when the proposed clinic closures were about to happen.
Oh, Lexi, after hearing you read all those ‘opinions’, I feel for all couples who for whatever reason, feel unworthy that God has not chosen them to be parents. How horrible and I can imagine how infertile couples could suffer from depression and start blaming and maybe even the marriage fails because of the pressure. QUESTION: Where does the church stand on IVF and surrogacy?
They're against it. They believe that if you can't do it the old-fashioned way, then that's God's way of telling you that you don't get none!
I never felt that " Go forth and multiply" was a commandment. If we read it as a metaphor, we see two people who have had everything torn from them, who need encouragement to pick up the pieces and carry on. I don't know if that's what the author intended, but that's how I read it😊
I mean that sounds like a great interpretation but then I’d go to church a learn about how it’s not ok to prevent pregnancy. I was always taught to let the lord do his thing
Rocking out to Fleshy Tabernacle!
I remember my dad always bragging while I was growing up that he didn't wait more than a year to start having kids, and that my parents had as many kids as God would allow(6). I don't remember the talks about having kids so much, but I definitely remember the culture that came from it.
If decisions about having a child are between the husband, wife and god then how does this work with the wife in the marriage having had to promise to be obedient to the husband and/or to hearken to him? I mean the man could say he wants another one, and the woman would technically not be allowed to just say no? (Nevermo here.)
As a politically active person this doesn't surprise me at all. Bc was fought against harder than abortion until the 80s. The religious right was very against it.
My parents who are in their late 60s now had 4 kids but only planned to have 3. My mother went on birth control but had me as a surprise and hasn't had any more kids since. I think that there are a few things that the church teaches that they don't pay any mind to and it doesn't seem like their ward knows or cares.
Edit: They also very obviously didn't really buy into the idea that sex is for procreation only but there are some in my family that totally buy into that. There is a lot of trauma and secrets in my family and we all just go along with it. Or at least I did until I didn't.
One of my seminary teachers in the 80s told us that having 1 or 2 kids was merely reproducing, 4 was multiplying, 6 or 7 was being fruitful, and 8 or more was replenishing the earth...so, if we wanted to be obedient to that commandment we needed to have at least 8 children. Any thing less was not fully obeying, even 8 children was doing the bare minimum. That never sat very well with me...and I ended up being infertile and the subject of much pity.
I grew up Catholic, it was the woman's job to keep having kids, the only birth control legal to them was the rhythm method. It is/was a ruse to boost the church's flock. My Mum had 4 kids and my Aunty had 9 kids and she suffered numerous medical conditions 🥺.
My mother suffered dearly having kids, experiencing serious chemical imbalance and mental illness during each pregnancy. My dad was quite upset with the Church's stance against birth control that existed in until a letter was sent to bishops in 1967 that removed their doctrine and policy against it.
I am one of 21 between two moms. Most of us are psycho like mom
11:00 - "Remember the 'F', for F*&K. Holy Sh*t that's insane!!!!
🎶 Every single sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If one single sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.🎶
I grew up and spent 21 years in the church. I just turned 30, so I'm coming up on nine years next month since leaving. Current members fail to understand that children can be a blessing if wanted, including accidental/an oopsie baby! They shouldn't be saying that preventing pregnancy is a sin greater than adultery. This only proves how hypocritical the teachings truly are!
I need to make some kind of band called Fleshy Tabernacles. I would do it as a joke more than anything
I didn't realize it until I was a married adult and I heard someone say that the church was against it.
9:08 Did he bother to ask his wife's body how it felt about having 15 kids? Somehow I doubt it.
that part legitimately made me nauseous. that poor, poor woman. I cannot comprehend living in such a hell as hers.
As someone who has never been Mormon, I figured if I joined some variant of Christianity, I would want to avoid having children. In groups with such tight control as Mormonism, there are so many things that keep people out of heaven, and if there is a chance future children could go to hell/outer darkness, it's not worth having them. Actually growing up in the culture would give me a different view of course, but it would take a lot of effort for a missionary to convince me to have children, with the risk of them being born sinners (being gay, trans, naturally curious etc)
Had a neighbor who didn't think birth control was good and you should have as many kids as nature allowed. His wife was not on board with this, so after her 5th kid, she secetly got a tubal.
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn! Nope, had no idea. Been out since 2007.
My mom didn't think it was appropriate to talk about birth control until you were married. Wouldn't even talk to me when i was getting it for health reasons and already engaged
I’m so glad I got out of the church before I got married and started churning out kids like rabbits. That’s sounds like literal hell in this economy