Roger Federer Flat Serve vs Kick Serve (Tennis Serve Comparison)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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Roger Federer Flat Serve vs Kick Serve (Tennis Technique Comparison)
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Federer Flat Serve:
1. Toss to the right of his head
2. Body is facing net post at contact
3. Racket travels into court (but still slightly to the right) during and after contact
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Federer Kick Serve:
1. Toss above his head
2. Keeps body almost sideways to target
3. Swing is more along the baseline
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Huge thank you to @tennisbuilder on Instagram for allowing me to use this footage. Follow them here: ...
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Could you also do a fed slice vs kick or flat vid?
On the toss, I see it differently. Fed is one of few players to toss “almost “ at the exact same location for flat and kick serve. The evidence is clear in you video, the ball is close to the 3rd pole at the background, for both kick and flat.
It is his body position make the difference, meaning he will jump more to the right for kick so that the contact point is relative to 12 o’clock position.
0:28 is directly before contact on Federer's flat serve and directly after contact on his kick serve and the ball is still clearly further left on his kick serve even after contact. What you are stating is unequivocally false. Federer tosses around 70" above his eye line, making contact above the shoulder/chin on first serve. Second serve is around 64" above eye line, making contact above eyes/forehead. His first serve toss enters the court further, as well.
I'd call this a nitpick, but I actually think it's more than that:
The biggest difference is the torso orientation at contact. On the kick, the left hand is pulled down farther to the right, leading to the torso staying more sideways. His pronation and internal shoulder rotation are actually the same. What's different is the orientation of the entire torso - rotated far less, 30-45 degrees less, on a kick serve. If you look at his final hand/arm position *with respect to his torso,* you can see it's almost identical.
If a player tries to kick by pronating more or flicking out more with their hand, they're just going to shank the ball all over the place. You have to learn how to orient your torso differently, rotating less like Roger does here, in order to accelerate through a kick.
Timing and toss analysis was spot on.
Excellent video! Well done. The kick serve is very hard to conquer, I have never be able to, and very few of tennis players I have played over the years have been able to as well. I will study this video very closely. I just became a subscriber as well. Keep up the great work.
Great video. Simple but precise.
It'd be awesome to have a video with analysis on the leg use. Straight on release? Push with back leg, front leg, both? Toes, thighs, butt, back...Is it a jump or a push? The landing. All those questions. Thanks man.
Fantastic video. You explain and show the subtleties and nuances of tennis in a way that allows us to understand how we are supposed to position and move our body parts. Your kungfu is strong.
This is probably the BEST video comparing the 2 serves. Thank you so much!!
What an excellent and detailed analysis and easy to understand serving tip. I agree with everything you said and I will apply it...thanks
What a great video Ryan! Now I get to the main differences on RF serve. Great analysis by the way. Now I get the 3 main ideas to improve my serve. Thanks again!
You're a plant.
Thanks for the tips man.
Hey Ryan, great video as usual!
I have a doubt, is it possible that the toss is the same for both serves but the impact is at different stages of the toss, that would also explain why for the flat serve the toss is higher. If we consider that the toss is always "the same" in terms of position but the height may vary depending of the type of serve (flat, kick, slice), when going for the kick Roger has his contact point "later" on the toss trajectory when the ball is more to his left and going down allowing him to go from left to right and brushing up, and for the flat his contact point is "earlier" on the toss trajectory allowing him to hit the ball more in front and on top of his head.
If this is the case it might be useful for those of us who struggle with the toss, allowing us to have one toss for all serves but changing the contact point on the trajectory of the serve depending on the type of serve that we want to hit.
The toss is not the same. The toss motion is similar, but it's 6" lower, closer to the baseline and more over his head. Federer always lets the ball drop around 19" from its apex.
This is exactly what i am thinking. i think 0.0x difference is nothing. there could be the gap on every toss.
in my opinion, toss is the same and the contact point is different depending on the serve type.
Great analysis!
Nice Video. The rotation could also be, because on the kick he choose to serve to the right corner and on the flat more middle/left
Hey Ryan, Take a look at Otte's serve against Andy Murray. Low toss and bang--can get 125mph. ALA Roscoe Tanner.
any chance the difference has something to do with the placement aimed for?
Good thinking. But after watching thousands of hours of video over the past 2 decades I can tell you that the difference is not based on location of where he’s aiming. But from the serve being hit. Thanks for the comment!!
BBC during Wimbledon coverage have shown multiple times in the past, Hawkeye based data and videos of Fed serving from very similar ball toss positions at contact, but hitting with different spins to alternate corners. Like Sampras, his ball toss position is not identical for kick or flat/slice, but it’s close enough that it’s hard for the receiver to read. And his ability to hit either corner from the same toss for each type of serve (eg: identical toss and a kick serve that can go to either corner of the service box) adds to the challenge at the receiving end.
@@jerome_morrow interesting... does that mean Fed can almost make it seem like he can hit any spot with any kind of spin regardless of position at contact?
@@TT-xh2cc That’s what they were trying to show. Boris Becker who was doing the commentary said that from the receiver’s end, Fed appears to have the same ball toss regardless of what spin he’s going for or placement. He also said the only other guy with a similarly unreadable serve was Pete!
Awesome! Tyvm.
So I've just gone with a wider stance and it seems the toss has to be more above me than in the court. Do you think Fed's toss depth is the same for Flat and Kick? Clearly lateral difference but wondering if they are the same depth. Thanks Ryan.
Great video!!
If you're only talking about the toss, it's only half the story. From ur freeze frames, it could be that he's leaning more into the serve on his kick serve more than he did on the flat, not necessarily the other way around.
can you please do some videos on selecting the proper strings
So do you toss the ball above your head or in front of you🤷♂️
could you please make a vid on how to be more consistent Luv ur vids
It would be a lot better to see Fed's first (flatter) and second (kick) serve side-by-side for the exact same serve placement (both down the T, or both wide). In this particular case, it could've well been that he was trying to go down the T a bit faster on that flat serve.
Hi. Thanks for really helpful analysis. As you recommended, I’m going to film my self and compare my movement and Pro’s. But I don’t know how to compare two videos side by side as you do, and how to draw lines or use a timer in the video.
I think your analysis workflow is super-needed for me …
Moreover, I want to film myself abd compare in real time, like practice 10 times, compare films right away, and fix my problem, and repeat.
Could you give some hints for me how to compare two films side by side in real time..?
I’ll be absoultely appreciate it!
how do you know it's not just the one serve? did you look at more than just these examples? maybe he happened to toss it differently
I’ve watched thousands and thousands of pro videos and dissected this stuff over and over again. I don’t make a video without investigating extensively. Thanks!!
Could you please make a vid on how to be more consistent luv ur vids
For kick serve, Federer moves the front leg to little side ways and forward position juat before toss, a quarter to half feet. No youtube coaches in the world noticed this till now. 😂
hi, great vid, thanks. I am wondering if you could make a comparison and analysis of Fededer's slice serve vs S.Williams's ? these two have the best slice serve on tour from male and female players, however their techniques are quite different, I mean the way of pronation. I'd like to know which one is better for amateurs to copy?
Hey
Good analysis but I just wanna note that much of these differences are the same for most if not all players cause they are necessary. I think you wanted to show the best at doing this which is good 😁
What is this editing software you are using. Looks pretty intuitive to use. With a screen recording as well
I tell you why the kick serve is low toss/quicker.. its because federer usually doesn't think too much and wants to get through the second serve asap.. its like boring for him
Damn your analysis is SUPER useful
Thank you Harry!
I have trouble with my toss to make rhythm, I drop my hand too quickly not extending my hand on the toss. 😭😭
Double fault. 😭😭
Fed could have used this vs Hurkacz
Not all things equal! Not a correct comparison.
He is serving to the center on the left side video.
He is serving wide on the right side video.
Don't you think that makes a difference. Think again.
Thanks so much Jason
man thank you for the video but you would need to use quite more data (quite more serves) to draw solid conclusion and confirm (or not) what you observe from those only two serves
Thanks for the comment. I have done the research you’re taking about. 37 years of playing tennis, 24 years coaching tennis, and literally thousands of hours reviewing video footage over the last two decades. The difference between a flat and kick serve is well known. Sample size doesn’t matter. Thanks!
@@2MinuteTennis What an insane blowhard this guy is. Sample size doesnt matter for drawing conclusions because you know better? LMFAO, the guys on tour clearly need your help!
I think Federer’s first service is not much different from the second one.
They’re very close I agree.
Otte just hit a serve at 128 with the low toss quick continuous motion. That's the way uh huh, uh huh, I like it uh huh, uh huh.
From a guy who did just that in my younger years..( copying Tanner) to a guy whose arm is nearly wore out in later years..lol
Ive been practicing my form for serving the way you taught me but i cant land the ball in the proper spot, it always goes higher or doesnt pass the net, any tips?
You need a new arm 💪
@@HEMI345S was that supposed to be funny
@@sahilpatel4633 When there is no talent, it doesn't matter how much you practice ... ask anyone who's in this business 😜
@@HEMI345S how sad does your life have to be to want to put others down. Its seriously pathetic
@@sahilpatel4633 Why truth has to bother you buddy ? Some people are not good at everything ... or you think you are impersonating the perfection ???
He's not tossing lower, he's hitting it sooner..
Whats your opinion on watching the ball over the shoulder on the serve? Like after the toss looking over the left side of your arm as opposed to the right (righty)
Thanks
Yep! Great thought. It’s the same for the overhead as well.
@@2MinuteTennis
I just nerded out on this one for an hour. Turns out if you are cross dominant in terms of dominant eye then best to look over shoulder, but if your right hand right eye dominant like Djokovic its best to look over the other side. Super advanced!
Counterpoint: Torso/body orientation on his serves is just a tool for targeting left or right of the box, not much else. To check, it's easy to find two identically placed serves, one would be a kick serve, and one flat.
Excellent instruction.
Good job.
Cool, so you can tell when Roger Federer will give you a flat or kick serve by his toss... You should call it before he hit the ball.