Can a speaker ever sound like the real thing?
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2020
- You've had the experience when the sound coming about of a speaker starts to sound true? It sounds like the real thing, you know it when you hear it.
Steve's Stereophile As We See it article from 2010, www.stereophile.com/asweseeit...
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I have a set of OHM 1000 speakers and I’m constantly impressed at the way they reproduce sound, especially piano and acoustic guitar. Many times, I feel like I’m listening to a performance rather than a recording, and that still amazes me after having the speakers about 10 years. My speaker search has ended. The only change I would make is up grading to a larger Ohm speaker in the future
I’m considering a pair of Ohms. But I had my heart set on a tube amp, 42 watts. What to do?
As a singer in a large symphonic choir, I sing with professional orchestras several times every year. I've also been an audiophile for over 40 years. No system I've ever heard - even systems costing well north of $100k - comes close to the sound of a live orchestra.
Can't even recreate the bass snare or metal drum kit tbh.
I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I don't possess any musical talent and haven't played in any bands,every time I have heard live music,if I try to analyse it in the same way as I would a system,the sound is so much more effortless ,rich,open,dynamic and "present" to a degree that no system has ever managed.At best I tend to think "oh that system sounds nice",but never do I think "oh that sounds real".Where Steve mentioned our ability to sense reality even through a PA system,I think that shows how far many recordings contribute to our perception of reality,or lack thereof. Fewer elements in the chain can help.
Connectability IT Support Toronto Absolutely! I record church audio and video. NONE of the recordings sound like the real thing.
The same here: sing in the concert choir, part of the state symphony orchestra. LIVE will never be approached by any domestic hi-fi system. But it is fun to have a playback system.
Try this test... while listening to your best system, jingle your car keys. The realism of their sound will instantly cut through the artificiality of the music you are playing.
Storytime With Steve...should be a regular feature.
Wow look at all those glorious CDs. Long live the CD!
Years ago, working in NYC at a recording studio, The Hit Factory, we were recording a name act singing a duet and laying down the strings. I was just standing around and heard the orchestra start playing and I was like, oh shxx, we're back from lunch already. I turned quickly around where I was, 10 feet from the cello section, and my jaw hit the ground to see that we were not back in yet and what was playing was the track from the morning session, playing through the sound system of the studio. I had to walk over to the speakers which were aboutish 8' off the ground (?), built into the wall and only protruded 5-6 inches. Or 8. It was a while ago... Lot's of room treatments in a band at the speaker level around the room, below, around the room were flat absorbent panels. The speakers were JBL labeled with coaxial drivers, not unlike the Urie 813's but these were 18" drivers and I don't remember what, if anything else was in the box with them. And yes, as Steve mentioned that might play a part, it was one of the bigger rooms at the Studio. I'm a cellist, occasional front of house mixer (Jazz/Classical concerts) and lifelong audiophile. I don't fool easily. There was no opportunity for critical listening, but the experience left me convinced that it is possible to recreate live sound. All you need are custom speakers from a company that was near the top of their game, a large dedicated and treated listening room and the master tapes. :-)
I’d hope that audiophiles take take time to go listen to live music, concerts, and occasionally hire a musician to play an instrument(s) and/or sing in your listening room. It keeps your listening ears humble.
Wow. This sparked an important realization for me. I was at an electronics convention in the mid-1980s and heard a live acoustic jazz performance behind a curtain in a large space. I walked to the other side of the curtain, only to find that it was a modest-sized Bose stereo system. To my teenage ears, it sounded breathtaking. Steve, you've made me realize that it was likely a combination of the recording being played at a realistic volume and the reverberation of the space that made it sound so real.
I just love how personal you make your videos. you have so much personality and this is a big factor for why I think your reviews are so amazing. Keep doing what you are doing. by the way; love the shirts
*Strictly Anecdotal*
A college friend was studying music for a degree in organ performance. He showed several of us a recital organ at Indiana University by playing some Bach and Widor. We were properly amazed, both at the instrument standing over us, the sound washing over us, and his virtuosity.
As an enthusiastic electrical engineering student, I asked him if any of the new electronic concert organs could match that sound. "No," he replied. "All electronic organs sound like they're coming through a big radio."
When I was in college (ca. 1972) I visited the modest apartment of an audiophile friend. There, dominating his tiny living room, sat a pair of EV Voice of the Theatre speakers (don't know what model, but my recollection is they were each about 4' high, 30-36"wide and 24"deep). He was listening to a record by a jazz ensemble who's name I don't recall. I still remember the experience like it was yesterday: I could hear the clicking of the trumpet keys, the sounds of the sheet music being shuffled on the music stand. I remember closing my eyes and listening, and hearing the group live, just a few feet behind the speakers, as if in the kitchen. I've never heard anything like it coming out of an audio system. I guess THAT would be MY last set of speakers.
‘Is it live or is it Memorex?’ As the advertisement used to say back in the day. The only times I can remember being fooled like that was in large open rooms with large speakers. Horn speakers like the Klipsch Cornwall in a large open room, with a good recording with a lot of space in it will get you close to what your after Steve. But we all want it in our living room from a pair of bookshelf speakers... just ain’t gonna happen. But we can keep trying... the Holy Grail of the audiophile!
Steve: Love your stories man! You take me right there, thumbs up, love all your videos, reviews, stories, gear recommendations etc, we appreciate your work man, thank you, keep the videos coming, action! print'em roll'em!
I think this is the best piece you ever did. It sums up what someone who first is into all kinds of music and someone who can tell the real from not in the most subtle unexpected moment.
Your examples reflected moments in my life when a what was that happened. One day driving home from work ages ago playing a cassette, classical music and all of a sudden there is a violin solo where I do not recall a violin at that point. While waiting to turn left I look out my window and see a kid practicing a violin while waiting for a bus, rather well too. I love those kinds of moments and they fill my brain with what to notice when I play my system.
I think it's because the shape of the sound, the 3-dimensional "sound field" created by real instruments (say a grand piano) can never be correctly captured and reproduced by stereo mics and speakers. Mics captures only a snapshot at certain points in space, and speakers reproduce the sound with their own particular sound shape or "sound field" that are completely different to the original instruments'. The brain seem to be very adept at detecting this, and when you add room interactions into account, it becomes even more easier to distinguish.
That said, binaural recording and playback is getting very close to the real thing, provided other qualities like dynamics are good enough.
I've often thought about this. I'm sure people have done it, but it'd be awesome to create a speaker system for say, a jazz piano quartet, where each instrument had its own stereo (or more) channel, and each instrument was reproduced by a separate set of stereo (or more) speakers tailored to each source. So the piano speakers would have the directional characteristics of a piano, same for the drums, etc. The speakers could be placed in the listening space, so you could walk around and each source would stay put. I wonder if that would get us much closer to reality.
In regards to Binaural Sound; I'm in total agreement. I've been experimenting with Binaural Recordings since the JVC era of Binaural Sound of the mid- 70's. With a possible exception, of an Ambisonic recording, also giving a satisfactory result. (I once "shared " a Corn Beef Sandwich with Michael Gerzon @ The Carnegie Deli during the 1986 AES Convention in NYC ! lol ) Presently - Nothing , Yes Nothing can touch Binaural Recordings for capturing a " You Are There Experience". All the More Shame, that Binaural Tracks are Not available as the norm, on any Music Medium. Wake Up ! … Most Music now listened to; is through Headphones of some type: be they Ear Pods / IEMs / Wired and Bluetooth or whatever. The Music Industry ? - "crickets"
You can buy a lot of guitar pedals that will do a pretty good job of reproducing the way a Leslie rotating speaker sounds, but they can't reproduce the way your two ears hear the physical waveform moving across the room in three dimensions from an actual Leslie.
I would agree with you, but that wouldn't jive with Steve's telephone story in the video.
@@burmansound Can't do it with drums.
Excellent video. Here are four things which in my experience contribute significantly to “sounds real”:
1. The speaker's power response (in addition to its on-axis response) should be spectrally correct. This is illustrated by the PA speakers (reinforcing piano and violin) which sounded realistic from afar, as in general PA speakers have considerably smoother power response than cone-n-dome speakers because of their more uniform radiation patterns. Likewise the Altecs in the theater had good power response.
2. The ear is able to hear very deep into the reverberation tails, arguably even down into what we might consider the "noise floor", by recognizing the harmonic structures. This means that the reverberation tails can contribute a lot. This is illustrated by your friend being able to hear room size OVER THE PHONE. Imo this is an argument against overdamped listening rooms, and as well as for otherwise getting the reverberant field right.
3. There is typically a competition between the venue cues on the recording and the venue cues of the listening room, and the ear will pick the most plausible cues to form its impression of acoustic space. The highly unorthodox Snell Type One system had exceptionally benign room interaction characteristics, allowing you to hear "less of the playback room" and therefore “more of the recording venue"... even if the acoustic signature of said "venue" was entirely created by the recording engineer(s). Note that when playing your tapes over the Altecs in the theater, there was no competing "small room signature" from the playback room.
4. Preservation of dynamic contrast also contributes to “sounds real”, and I suspect that, along with the aforementioned absence of “small room signature” and good power response, contributed to the Altecs in the theater sounding so realistic (despite their having mediocre frequency response, by audiophile standards).
Likewise the PA speakers reinforcing that piano and violin probably had minimal thermal compression, and they were probably getting an uncompressed signal.
These aren't the only things that matter of course.
re: point 3: I suspect that the "venue cues" (tiny reverb tails etc.) are extremely difficult to capture and transfer through to the final listener accurately. If you think of a drum strike in a live room and follow just one part of the sound to the wall, where it bounces and scatters into 10 parts, which each bounce and hit other walls / floors / ceiling and scatter into another 10 parts, each time diminishing in volume etc. etc., that reverb signal is probably 100's of thousands of tiny signals and very difficult to preserve and recreate.
Great video like always thank you Steve!
The most 'live' sounding speakers I've heard were the big Maggies powered by a McIntosh amp. Very live sounds come from planar magnetic headphones, too, assuming you've got enough current to drive them to moderate levels.
I just posted a comment about my Maggies and their ability to reproduce a "live" coherent sound. I notice someone else mentioning Quads. All not multiple round driver designs.
When I got my 1.7i a few years back I took them to my son's house. He has a very nice system with AR 9s driven by L-O7M monoblocks. We hooked the Maggies up. Literally seconds later he said he now knows what is wrong with every other speaker system he has heard so far. That multiple source and location smearing of the signal. The Maggies produce this sound field with the musicians suspended in it.
It just shows how much the room itself "plays" a big role in the overall sound. I moved a couple of years ago, from a smaller apartment, too now living in quite a big livingroom (25-30 M2 - square meters), and the change in sound was huge. The reverb of the room itself, make an impact when playback, but somehow i like this more, as now i really can hear into the room were the recording was made, and it sounds for me more "natural" (whatever that means)? ;-) It shows again how important the room is, and how much improvement you can get by room treating. Stay safe..cheers.
Really enjoyed this episode, as I can relate to your experiences so much. Hearing a live piano away in the distance, and knowing it was someone playing it live, right then. It struck me too and made me wonder over the years, what is different about that sound, that gave it that quality. Like you I think, never really came to a satisfactory conclusion. Certainly not one that you could act upon, and create an environment, with audio equipment, that could recreate that conviction that you were listening to something 'live'. Loved this episode, thanks.
Sometimes I wonder how often "Audiophiles" go to proper live concerts...
Exactly.
Jason C. As a Hifi and music enthusiast, I get tired of this age old subject.
Jason C. As a music and Hifi enthusiast, I grow tired of this age old subject.. its nonsensical.
This is an old myth of audiophiles; that they don't see live music, or, the corollary, they are more into the gear than the music.
While there are some of these types of audiophiles, I find that they are in the minority. I interact quite often with members of the LAOCAS, the largest audiophile club in the world. And I not know a single one that does not go see live music. I have seen more than my share of members at the LA Phil on a regular basis, or in jazz clubs, etc.
Most audiophiles, me included, got into audio because the better audio becomes, the closer we can get to the music.
To me a proper live concert is an unamplifed classical concert. I have been to my favorite music hall many times to hear live music and I've worked on my system until it sounds like that.
Mr. Guttemberg, I have to confess something: I generally hate videos themed on what I call a "talking head", a face talking without showing the object of my interest.
BUT, it's completely different with your videos, not only because they are dense in matter but also because of the genuine enthusiasm with which you present them!
It always seems to me like that conversation with a very wise and much loved teacher after class with a lot of attention.
Thank you for that.
Greetings from Brazil.
I don't think sounding like the "real" thing is necessarily the best sound you should be looking for as an audiophile. There are a lot of problems with listening to live music, and you can often get a better experience listening at home, or even through headphones than you necessarily will get at a live performance. Glenn Gould much preferred listening to music at home, and dramatically changed the tonality of his piano playing during production, including splicing together different takes of a single movement. I would prefer to listen to a Gould recording at home over a lesser pianist live, while sitting far away and off to the side in a less than ideal performance space.
Time, Place, Mood. Well said, Steve. Audiophiles, good audiophiles with a lot of experience with music, live music, understand that the reproduced music is "Artificial" and although that said, doesn't necessarily make it "False", but is understood to be an artifact of live music and what the expectations may realistically be. The quest is in satisfying to a greater or lesser degree, what that cumulative aural memory has been. This is a fascinating topic and you are doing a hell of a job bringing this to light. Thanks.
A little late to the party and long time viewer but recent subscriber. To Steve, very good piece and I want to add an angle that you made me think of while I listened to your KEF LS50 Meta review. In that review, you were very impressed by how the Meta sounded like an open back speaker such as the Magnapan, and other similarly constructed speakers, which have an open sound because of the nature of their construction. You were very impressed that the Meta exuded the same "sound" beyond the rear of the Meta even though it is a closed cabinet. Well, my system amounts to a low budget system today but it now sounds exceptional to me now because you made me think to turn around the top speaker, away from me, and face the top speakers towards a hard surface so that the sound could reverberate and create space and a broader soundstage. To be clear, I have the Triangle BRO3 and B&W DM600 speakers stacked atop 44" tall tower speaker cabinets that are not hooked up. The Triangles are also turned upside down so the tweeter is closer to height of my ears in a sitting position. So when you made the comment about sound coming out of the back of the open construction speakers, I decided to turn the DM600's to the rear and towards angled hard surfaces. It worked. Gracious, it is now even smoother, is clearer spatially with what I think is a wide soundstage that has depth. I'm sure this has been tried before, I just haven't heard it mentioned. Just wanted to share that approach.
I've heard several systems over the years that have given inklings of the real thing.
One that sticks out, was the flagship Von Schweikert 'Ultra 11' speakers in a big room at the LA Audio show a few years ago.
We went from playing orchestral music, to small jazz ensemble, to a guitar playing singer, and they reproduced each to a very accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression.
But all we can really hope for, is a "window" to the original musical event, not a reproduction of the actual musical event. As systems get better and better, the "window" gets larger, cleaner, less distorting, etc, but we can always tell we are perceiving it though a window.
Well that's all very nice but I might think the same when hearing a great or near great audio system. The words very accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression never enter my brain when listening to live music and that is the point.......It's live.
@@carlfuggiasco7495 I don't disagree.
I only use those criteria ( accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression and others), when I am listening to a new piece of gear, or an unfamiliar system.
Once I am done with my evaluation, I am done listening for those criteria, and I am only interested in, "does this sound like an inkling of real music? Am I able to ignore the fact that I am listening to reproduced music (with all its shortcomings), and just become engrossed and emotionally involved in the music?.
If I can get to the point where the gear gets out of the way of the music, that's what I am looking for.
Believe me, my system, while fairly high end, it does not get near the level of the system with the Von Schweikert I described above. But it does get out of the way and let me listen to the music. The Von Schweikert system just gets way further out of away.
And yes, I never use audio terms when at a live concert, unless it's Rock, and the soundsystem is crap. Why would I use audio terms and criteria when listening to classical at Disney Hall, or other purely acoustic music?
The closest to real life I ever heard was in an audiophile store in San Diego around the late 90s.
I was checking out a pair of electrostatic speakers, Quad ESLs I believe..maybe coupled with subs. They played a jazz recording. I was aghast when I heard high heeled shoes walking from my front-right towards the center. I could hear her step up onto a wooden stage and then the band played, she sang. It was as if invisible ghosts were in the room performing right in front of us!
Of course they had set up a near perfect listening environment. The speakers were well away from the back wall and probably had great acoustic treatment. But I never got over how real those electrostats sounded.
For me it was the KLH Nine electrostatic speaker. I never heard a voice sound real through a stereo till I heard them. I now own a pair of Acoustat full range electrostatic speakers that I bought back in 1980 and they do everything quite well. Never really heard anything better and I used to hear high-end systems all the time as I worked in a high-end stereo store. My boss was always upset that my system sounded better than anything in the store.
@@andershammer9307
An Acoustat experience firmly hooked me into a lifelong pursuit into audio playback quality.
Vic, my salesman, sat me down in front of Audio Research powered Acoustats, left the room ...
I believe I sat there for an entire album side ... entirely blown the f away!
The demo material was some Spanish Guitar w/percussion... oh my, so nice, uncolored, transparent, portraying this 3-dimensional image before me that I'd never experienced.
He returned in time to lift the tonearm and asked me what I thought... I remember trying to be cool, but I was raving about the experience!
I concluded with "play the first piece again only turn it up louder".
Absolutely crushing me ... he told me "that's all there is, these can't really play too much louder"
THAT conundrum of the transparent detailed presentation, yet limited in ultimate dBSPL, has fueled me since the late 70's.
I want it all, and loudspeakers are all about comprises.
@@FOH3663 I think I know the album you heard. It's a direct to disc album called Flamenco Fever and it's maybe the most dynamic record I ever heard. It's on M&K Realtime and sells for over $600 on Ebay. Glad I got mine for $17. It blows away any CD I've heard for dynamics. I burned it on a CDR and used it to demo stereo equipment ant people loved it. I have been listening to Acoustats since 1980 and never really heard anything better. Heard some sound pretty close though like the Sound Labs.
We’re they the 57s. That look sort of like a radiator?
The ones I heard were just panels, black grills I think.
I enjoyed every minute of this one. I've had similar experiences and thoughts. BTW, the old Whitney had the biggest elevators I've ever been in!
Since you're hearing what the microphone hears. You're not hearing a cello on a recording, you're hearing a recording of a cello.
Hi Steve I've always felt that listening to a good quality old record from the seventies made of the thicker vinyl and a good turntable always felt much more real to me like the band was performing in the room right there in front of you!
Whoever shares this passion are always searching
Here's what I think.. A speaker is a universal medium. It can simulate any frequency but It will never sound like any "one" instrument because what makes an instrument unique IS its unique resonances. A flat surface like a cone driver can not ever truly reproduce the infinitely complex sound of a three-dimensional instrument.
Resonances is just like any other sounds and can be replicated. Radiation patterns and room interactions is much more difficult to replicate.
@@impuls60 I'm not convinced.. one of the things that makes a grand piano sound like a grand piano is its three dimensional physical structure vibrating and resonating while making sound. It is a depth of sound that a vibrating flat speaker cone literally cannot fully reproduce. You need a cone that is physically shaped like a piano for that and you might as well play a real piano at that point.
@@phetmoz
I do not think so. The shape of the speaker is irrelevant. The speaker only has to recreate the sound waves that the instrument makes including the overtones. This can be done with some instruments, but is difficult with others due to the method of mic-ing and difficulty with making a microphone that has a flat response throughout the audio range. Acoustic Research had some success using a string quartet as a source and also played back and switching between the two. However, I have never heard a reproduction of a Cymbal played back that sounds like a real live cymbal. Many percussion instruments are difficult to reproduce. A piano is a combination string and percussion instrument.
My ear drums seem to do ok, considering they are sooo close to two dimensional
@@peterbronxsidetrack1238 your ears are receivers of sound, not emitters of sound.
There is a difference.
Then when it is recieved, your brain makes sense of it, not the eardrums themselves.
Who ever said live music sounded so great? I guess the pursuit started with people who grew up only listening to live music but the majority of us now have heard way more recorded music than live music.
Totally agree, I prefer non-live music like music videos things like that. Studio albums just seem to sound so much better don't care if it's live or not!🙄😬
A live orchestra in a properly treated and engineered concert hall cannot be beaten.
I have been to many live concerts and nothing can compare to a live show. I have seen everyone dating back to the late 60's. I saw the Allman's 4 times with Duane and the Dead many times. You name them and I saw them. I did blow it by not going to the "Band of Gypsy's at the Fillmore East. The Dead had the wall of sound and their sound systems is what everyone else copied. They brought you in and blew you out. I have the first level of audiophile hifi and nothing can compare to a live show.
Garage band rehersals usally sound bad. Live instruments doesn't always mean great sound. Level matching live instruments in small vistas can be problematic.
For a larger sound stage as well as more of a "I am there" feeling and sound, I use a 4 channel stereo system with floor standing speakers up front and stand mount speakers just forward of me on either side pointing at each other. The imaging is great and the soundstage is huge. As far as realism, this setup is only slightly more realistic than just the front speakers as far as instrument reproduction but it definitely makes the room bigger and helps immerse me in the music.
Michael Timmerman that sounds interesting... is that playing all 4 channels, no dsp?
Yep you're right, really amazing hi-fi still sounds like hi-fi. No mistaking a live instrument.
Awesome experienced knowledge 👌
Just before lockdown - I did get to listen to the opening track of Kind if Blue “so What” from a vinyl sourced played thru the new Michi pre amp and 2 Michi power mon blocks - into B&W 803s - now iv sat in bands and herd trumpet players up close - and this was an eerie experience- but still not quiet right as it picks up what the microphone herd and not what I hear normally - you never really want to get that close to a trumpet
I went to a presentation by Peter McGrath a few years ago at my friendly neighborhood (well, nearby large city) brick-and-mortar dealer of some 4 channel recordings that he had made. The front channels over Wilson Alexx speakers were the more direct recordings of the musicians with the back channels over Wilson Alexia speakers being primarily of the ambiance of the venues. These were 'live' recordings so there was some cross bleed between the 4 microphones, of course, but you get the idea. You could still tell that they were reproduced performances, but it was quite an impressive demonstration of multi-channel music recording and playback done right.
Bro i love your videos
i saw a video awhile back where it was a grand piano in this large rectangular room and then set up a multitude of mics at all different locations through out the room. and it did provide somewhat of the energy described but i think that may be too complicated to produce with several instruments. i agree a quality set of horn speakers get you close where when close mic'ed to a Sax you can actually hear the resonance of the sound coming from inside the instrument when played at reference levels.
Re: Break on through to the other side ...
I've experienced a set of loudspeakers sounding like a live performance only once.
A pair of vintage Tannoy Eatons driven by quite a powerful push-pull tube amplifier in a space used for intiment concert venues.
At the time, I was at a location that obscured a direct line of sight to the audio source.
Only when a pop came through from the record being played was the illusion broken.
I remember being confused in the moment, and then upset just after.
Been yearning for that moment ever since.
I have Klipschorns in a very large room with high ceilings. The soundstage in enormous and at times you really feel its a live concert. My guess is the room size and how sound bounces around, compared to a smaller room and speakers.
I think what distinguishes live from recorded music is DYNAMIC RANGE. When I am walking by a house with someone playing a piano or organ when the windows are open, especially, it is very apparent which is which. It's the contrast between the quiet notes and the loudest ones. A recording can't normally do that.
As a 40+ year designer of electronic musical instruments that are meant to sound acoustic, I've always been intrigued by how you can tell the difference between a cheap piano and an expensive piano while listing to an AM broadcast over a pocket radio.
The performer’s reaction changes, too! 😉
Nice video Steven. I've often thought that the two instruments that come across as being realistic in stereo reproduction are the clarinet and the saxophone.
Steve,Chris Picquet here again.i forgot to mention that I had a pair Peter Snell's type 1 loudspeakers.the most bizzare things I ever saw,but great sounding! I still have the type 1 crossovers.cabints and reflector tongue on bottom were really beat up.great speakers,eloborate crossovers.
Can a speaker sound like the real thing? YES!!! In many live performances the speaker is the real thing and that is what it sounds like.
Try an intimate live performance utilizing acoustic instruments only.
Back in school in 1980 or so, a room mate brought a set of STAX HEADPHONES he had gotten for Christmas. We put on THE DIREC TO DISC DARK SIDE OF THE MOON.
To this day, I have never felt such musical amazement..
The only speakers that sounds just like a Live Event are the all new German Physiks Unicorn Horn Speakers ! Audio Heaven on Planet Earth !
Very interesting vlog Steve. I saw Pink Floyd out doors in the rain. It was the Animals tour. They had the quadraphonic p.a. Gilmore would hold a note and it would sail around the stadium just above our heads. Great, great sound. Our stereos of the time were horrible but we loved them. We didn't expect much. They did not sound real at all. Now in my old age about the only music I can even listen to live and actually enjoy is unamplified. San Antonio has a wonderful acoustic space. The Tobin Center. The symphony sounds perfect. Small scale acoustic music does as well. But amplify it and its suddenly overdriving the space. We saw Tedeschi Trucks at Red Rocks. At first it sounded perfect, being an open air venue. About halfway through they started turning up the volume. By the end I was covering my ears. Maybe it's that the guys at the sound board aren't *audiophiles*. Generally I prefer the sound of my own system to live music.. Sometimes I get surprised and live music sounds great. Usually not. For most of us. I think the illusion of the live event is a matter of scale. It's lot to ask our systems to produce live scale.
Steve, love your channel, and watch often! I will comment on your surround sound thoughts. I agree with you that in some cases, a surround mix of a stereo recording is strange and unexpected. But, in the case of The Wall, Pink Floyd actually did present it in a surround sound mix when they played it live. That concert, as well as Dark Side of the Moon and a couple others I witnessed actually had speakers all around the stadium. So, the 5 channel mix is more like live than your typical studio album.
As a film sound mixer I can attest that most mixes are still all about the action in front of you, but to hear a fantastic mix with lots of surround ambient play the Master and Commander film, especially the under the ships deck sequences are breathtaking. Personally I fell in love with electrostatic speakers back in the 70s listening to a friend’s Quad EL59s playing Shirley Bassey of all people (not a fan) as a budding HiFi nut I never heard anything like it before. I have owned many speakers including the EL59s but still prefer the openness, speed and unrivalled voice authenticity of electrostatics.
Yes at CES with the MBL extreme omnidirectional system. It was very very good.
I have a modest setup, but I love it. (emotiva airmotive 4s + chord mojo) I feel I get 'closer' to breaking through the more I am able to relax and be mindful of the music. I suspect there is a paradox in there because a LOT of audiophile listen critically, not mindfully. And I find that some DACs present in a way that makes it easier to be mindful. This, like so much else in this hobby, it likely subjective.
First time a heard a large Magnepan at a Harrow Audio in north London from just outside the room. I went in and got the same goosebumps you do from a live singer.
I need another set of Maggies...
As always Steve you bring up interesting questions although in this case I'm not sure that I accept your basic premise. As a record collector turned recording engineer a long time ago , it was my dream to have control over the sound of a record and make them sound the way I wanted them to sound. I don't try to make them sound"real" so much as making them sound hyper real. A certain kind of visceral quality that would have impact whether on speakers at home, speakers in the car or on headphones. For jazz, for instance, it's the first row in the club where the music hits you hardest. Or for pop, somewhere inside your head. We use so many imaginary spaces and twirl them around inside the song that sounding real becomes irrelevant.
A long time ago I had a matrix decoder. I had a fairly large listening room. I had tri-amped JBL 4343 speakers in the front and ADC 450A speakers in the rear. I adjusted the rear channels to not be almost unnoticeable. The sound was pretty darned good. Eventually something went wrong with the decoder and I abandoned the rear channels. Sometimes I still miss them.
Many, many, too many tears ago, I remember listening to a quadraphonic music demo set up by AR (Acoustic Research) in a small listening room at Grand Central Station in New York city. It was open to the public. This was in the late 1960s. If I remember correctly, they were playing mostly jazz like Dave Brubeck or the Modern Jazz Quartet, etc. To this day, I have never again heard anything so realistic, so live, so "you are there" as that demo. Steve, as a New Yorker of a certain age, maybe you remember this, as well?
A system that can give you sounds that seem to come behind you will sound more real. There used to be a device which I have somewhere that would add to the rear sounds. My system does not sound like a live rock band but I did a comparison once between my favorite music hall (Synod hall) and my system and to me the sound was the same.
There are probably two competing factors. One is how well the original recording captured the acoustic space where the performance was done as well as the sound of the instruments themselves. The other is how well the speakers can deliver that sound to the listener without allowing the acoustics of the playback space to affect the sound.
At best, it appears that the recorded acoustic space would be reproduced in the plane of the speakers and behind. But such a window into the acoustic space of the recording would be great.
I went to a live performance of a famous pianist playing on a huge Bösendorfer.
It turned out to be amplified through the hall's PA system. MP3 + earbuds on a mediocre phone sound better :-(
Gone is the liveliness, gone is the sense of direction, gone is the Bösendorfer sound, gone is the timing (you hear everything several times from several speakers + the piano).
Unbelievable that the performer or his representatives ever agreed with this.
So this time I had to go home, listen to my stereo to come a lot closer to live performance...
Fascinating conversation. As much as I can simply enjoy listening to studio CD's on a decent system, the most enjoyable moments are when that break through happens. After all the work to evolve your system to be as good as possible in your room, you have to have good media. As a result, I prefer recordings of live events with minimal sound processing or compression. I think the keys to the system include the room (and treatments) and a system that is as simple as possible. Digital with very good clocks. All triode amps. Minimum passive components. Minimum of crossovers. Large open transducers. When music is recorded and reproduced with lots of micro details the crossover is more likely. When you spontaneously experience the emotion of the performer, the magic happens. There are songs that will cause tears to well up every time I hear them. Not because I relate to the words, but because I have a sympathetic reaction to the recorded state of mind of the performer as expressed in their performance.
I had an almost real experience in a live setting. We had just recorded live and were playing it back from a digital mixer on the house speakers. Since digital mixers capture what is coming in and the settings, it was possible to replay (and even remix) the live music.
Some years ago I experienced the playback of a child's voice only, no instruments, singing. Source was an old 78rpm record from the 30’s. HiEnd turntable, arm and cartridge. 3W Tube amp.
Speaker, a 5in Focal mounted at an odd location on a 4ftx2ft.75in plywood sheet. Front side of plywood a thick felt covering. Backside about 2in of sound absorptive material.
Close your eyes, forget the ticks and pops and that kid was right there in front of me.
I’ll never forget that.
Electronic classical organ manufacturers continue to try to accomplish this, making samples of real instruments sound as true to the real thing as possible. You should check out the technology of the Allen Organ company in Pennsylvania. They also design and manufacture their own speaker drivers and cabinets, and implement technologies based on "sampled acoustics". It seems like the museum you were in coloured the sound and made the PA seem like it wasn't there until you got close.
Hi Steve, I have almost the same experience last year and I am going to share. Thru out the years, like all audiophile, I have been looking for audio gear that could reproduce music as close as to the real thing: "live music".
I was invited to a country club party last year, there was a 8 persons band playing some nice music on a stage. the room was pretty big like the size of a gym, while I was enjoying the music, I turn around and talked to my friends for about 5 minutes, suddenly I heard a very nice song performed by the band, lively and energetic, so I turn around and could not believe my eyes, the stage was empty! the band left for a break, and they were playing a recording of the band, and I could swear they were playing live.
This incident changed my believe, it was not the audio gear, it was the room, the environment, the space that create the "Live sound", the recording is more important, the room, the acoustic and may be DSP might be part of the answer?
You're right (12:30). Years ago I remember the new thing in the local cinema was 'surround sound'. Totally distracting.
Steve - Thanks for this video. This is a very interesting discussion of reproduction of the sound of reality. I have given up on recreating live sound in my home system as an ultimately hopeless and expensive quixotic quest. Now, instead, my audio goal is to have a system that sounds good to me, which in large measure means that it lacks artifacts and irritants (e.g., harsh sibilants and boomy bass) while doing a decent job at resolution, dynamics, impact, PRAT, and soundstaging. Perhaps I am no longer an audiophile, but rather, an euphonophile, if I may coin that term.
I had several concert experiences that led me to believe that nothing sounds as real or as good as unamplified acoustic music.
One experience was attending several opera/art music vocal recitals in which no microphones nor PA system were used. Particularly memorable for me was a recital at a medium sized auditorium in Richmond, VA in the mid-1980's in which Leontyne Price sang accompanied by only a piano with no microphones nor PA system. No recording of her voice played back on any audio system that I have ever heard has reproduced either the quality or the quantity of her voice as it filled and pressurized that auditorium. By the way, the audience demanded and she delivered six encores, and she received seven standing ovations that evening.
A second experience was in the late 1980's to mid-1990's when I lived in the DC metro area and subscribed to the Smithsonian Institution's Resident Associates concerts. Most of the jazz concerts in that series were held in the Baird Auditorium and used microphones and a PA system. However, there was one jazz concert in the Baird Auditorium that I particularly recall that did not use microphones nor a PA system. That was a concert by James Dapogny's Chicago Jazz Band. What struck me was that with the microphones and PA system, the performances in the Baird auditorium did sound real and live, but the sound quality, while very good, was not as good as the sound of unamplified instruments, which of course, also sounded real and live. I think this is consistent with your observation that sonic reality and liveness are not just about sound quality.
I also once attended a B.B. King concert at which the PA system played so loudly that the sound was severely distorted - or was that due to my fingers being in my ears as I tried to reduce the pain and preserve my hearing? I can't recall whether or not the instruments sounded real, but the pain was certainly real.
Unfortunately, it seems that the sonic attributes that are necessary and sufficient to reproduce the sense of reality and liveness are currently unknown.
Interestingly , at the end of this there are some car horns. In the background clearly on a street outside Steve’s room. A common occurrence, especially in a city. Off in the distance but clear and you can hear an element of reverb (a sense of “reflection” off of other buildings?). There is a palpability to those “car horns”.....even through my etymotis plugged direct into an iPad.
Its the same with UA-cam content. Sometimes you can spot good sounding equipment in the videos. Even though you listen through your mobile Phone!
I would say it happens a lot with my DALI Rubicon 8 speakers. For the most part due to the high fidelity and gigantic sound stage. I hear sounds so real I think there's someone standing in my hallway making the sounds. And if it's a good audiophile recording it's very close to the real thing. Elements of the music are absolutely as they are in real life.
Thats awesome Steve , thanks for the share , Thats what audio is all about is having fun !!
wow thanks for mentioning the type 1 ... it was my first hi fi lust object i ever heard at a dealer
Klipsch La Scalas are a one of the kind product. It's music like I had never heard it before.
I listened jazz vinyl on hand made HiEnd turntable + huge, huuge vintage speakers and yes i think it can sound close to live. There is no real audiophile experience without huge speakers and analog input, period.
No matter how good the audio setup is you can only get there if the recording accommodates that. Boingo Alive would be an incredible album to listen to with a really nice setup. I've never had the chance but I have enjoyed it with a decent mid range pair of IEMs and my phone's built in quad DAC. The album was performed exactly as it would be live in a live setting but sans audience and with high quality recording equipment
Just went to listen!🤗😇 not aware of before!🤫🤗
If you want reality, use PanAmbiophonics to eliminate crosstalk and get the real room back. Playing my Ambiophonics system with my eyes closed, the boundaries of my room disapear and I'm immediately transported to the studio or hall in wich the recording took place.
I was at a Grateful Dead concert in the late sixties - early seventies. This was in an auditorium at Wichita, Ks. For me, it was a matter of reality pursuing reproduction. The soundscape was incredible. The music was loud, but well balanced, the sound was wonderful. I thought at the time, "This is like sitting in an audiophile boutique." Of course, they were doing the leading-edge thing. This was not the acoustic soundscape of a piano concert, choir, or orchestra in an acoustically wonderful auditorium. This was electric, and what better thing to do than to make sound like the best audio system you can imagine. At least, that was my impression.
Back in the 60's/early 70's Acoustic Research did many live vs recorded public demonstrations. Listeners could not reliably determine when the music changed from live players to recorded. TBF, this was most often with a string quartet so there wasn't an extreme range of frequencies/volume but still, if that could be done in the 1960's, one would expect it to be no problem at all now with modern speakers/amplifiers, recording equipment.
Interesting trip Steve.
Just yesterday I was listening to the great Manitas De Plata playing "Gypsy Theme" from his Everest LP. That man's soul bleeds. I was "between worlds" so-to-speak as my attention was on a couple different things at once and I literally started to turn around and see what brand of guitar he was playing!!!!! Now, I'm not crazy, I know that nothing has changed with that record for the last 52+ years or so. But my mind wanted to know something that my ears were telling me was possible to do at that instant. It was very bizarre. I'm listening to a Fluance turntable through M5 studio series monitors by Polk. You know, the 2-way wall hangers made from thick polymer? Not exactly top shelf reference gear.
Another thing that I find uncanny about sound.... I find it easier to discern electric from acoustic instruments, woodwind from percussion, nature from music and animal from just about anything. Any thoughts as to why?
In other words I can easily tell you if it's a real electric guitar or a recording. Slightly more difficult to discern a violin, harder yet a bird song or cat meow and harder still two clapping hands or rustling newspaper. Reverberation perhaps? What do you find most difficult to pinpoint if you're walking down the street and you hear a sound from inside an open window of a home? A crying baby? Cutting food on a cutting board?
Also, with the advent of Dolby Atmos, my 4 height speakers make a rain shower sound so much more enjoyable and immersive. 100%. And with no want or need to avert my gaze from the screen.
Suspension of disbelief is basically unnecessary any more, visually speaking. And I expect that with better processing power and discreet channels getting more and more prevalent it's just a matter of time before we need/expect haptic feedback at the theater and smell-a-vision through our home screens. Imagine someone from the ancient world discovering current multimedia technology.....
Poof
Love your shirt Steve -
Hey Steve,it is possible to create lifelike sound in your home (provided you have the space!) Large horn loaded speakers need space! There tends to be some serious room anomaly issues those type speakers without room treatment.(people waste their money on big speakers in small rooms) low frequency waves are long and need space! I designed and built a pair of 6.5in. two ways that that recreate the realism and immediacy of a live performance in a smaller room.(took me two years and lots of money spent on the highest end drivers available in the the early 2000's.(scanspeak,dynaudio,focal,vifa,seas,Eton,etc...) The pricey drivers sounded the worst! All focused on bass performance,rather than seamless mid-range transition to the tweeter! Goal: to reproduce the transparency of Quad Esl 57's with the impact and speed of Pro Audio speakers.i have upgraded some vintage Klipsch Heritage's and very happy with the results.a good friend who designs tube amp and refinished ESL 57's laughed at me initially until he heard them! He stayed at my house for 4hrs. listening.
Imagine trying to capture a water balloon exploding with a coffee cup from 3 feet away. That's what you are doing when recording an instrument with a microphone. The instrument is throwing out a sphere of sound in ALL directions..... and the sound is different in every direction. And all those different sounds are interacting with the environment. How would you expect that microphone to pickup the actual sound of that instrument? Then on playback... you play back on a loudspeaker that is certainly NOT omni-directional. Even if it was (like an Ohm) .... you are only feeding it that 1% perspective that the microphone had. I think the fact that stereo sounds as amazing as it does, is a miracle....... and i'm not complaining!
Great topic! Super interesting too. To me, "live" music is when you are hearing only real instruments played. Like a symphony orchestra. A rock band blasting away on a stage loaded with a huge PA setup is NOT "live" in the sense you are hearing the actual instruments playing. You may be there experiencing the performance "live" and may get a a mixture of say, the drum kit with the amplified version. Steve is right, as many other commenters here. The brain has a way of using psycho acoustics to differentiate a speaker cone vs actual instruments playing. I hear a grand piano is one of the most difficult instruments to record due to the endless overtones is produces. Steve's experience of hearing the piano and violin down the hall and in a room vs being right in the room makes sense. I bet if a sound person could switch back and forth between just PA or just actual instruments, way down the hall by the elevator, one may be hard pressed to say, "oh ya, I can hear the difference easily".
Regarding the subjective experience of a film surround sound audio system. I once attended a performance of the NY Philharmonic being conducted by John Williams. The climax of that performance was a segment of Williams’ score for the film E.T., being played by the orchestra while a large drop-down movie screen behind the the musicians simultaneously showed the final 10- minutes of the film. It was magic. I completely forgot awareness that the score was being performed live, and was emotionally pulled further in to the film on the screen via the musical performance.
There was nothing in the live performance to distract from, or to otherwise pull my attention away from the visual story on the screen. No dynamic limitations, or distortion, or artificial sounding tonal coloration. None of the unpleasant things which can indicate that the music was being reproduced , yet at the same time, none of the pleasant characteristics (in a multi-channel hi-fi sort of way) which can indicate that the performance was live either. While the live musicians, and the sound they were producing disappeared from conscious awareness, they simultaneously increased my emotional involvement in the story on screen.
So, I concur, that surround sound which has the intention of being noticed, of overtly justifying its existence, of being an effect for effect’s sake, is the wrong objective. From my above experience, I’d feel that the right objective is to produce sound, surround or not, which emotionally pulls the film viewer in to the story without their being consciously aware of that occurring.
In the 1970s I had a pair of Sonab oa12 speakers. In the dark the sound was just real. I haven't heard that realism since with any other speakers.
Very interesting subject, I think it's a bit like trying to make a camera take a picture which looks like reality. The answer surely lies in our own sensory perception, a large part of our senses is dependant on our brain which we don't fully understand, our eyes seem camera like and our brain computer like but the reality is much more complex.
The best i ever heard music was on Eggelston works speakers!!! The midrange was incredible!!!
I’m a t traditionalist, old school, a purest, 2 channel man, analogue man. I have listened to good 5.1 systems and above, and they can be impressive, but not real, because as you rightly say, all the visual action is happening in front of you, so your brain naturally expects the audio to come from the same source. If a car travels from left to right across your screen, your stereo set up can mimic that pretty well! It must be more complex to accurately mimic sounds of what your not being shown, and that is where you stray from reality, or, at least, the illusion of reality!
If all audio setups were listened to blindly with no knowledge of any of the components, people would save a lot of money.
Under the right circumstances, with a really great recording, excellent high quality audio gear, superb speakers, in a well designed, acoustically treated room/listening environment it’s “possible” to achieve as close to “real” as possible.
I briefly experienced such a moment of an orchestral recording of high quality played through “high end” electronics through 4 Klipschorns in a “treated” listening room. I could have been sitting front row in a concert theater listening to a live orchestra which I have experienced a 1st row seat behind the orchestral conductor in a Concert experience and I could relate that experience to the audio experience that day as being as close as “real” as the live concert experience.
Four Klipschorns?
Stewart Markley Yes, FOUR, two in each corner, stacked, bass cabinets on top of each other with the two midrange &tweeter cabinets on top of that.
On piano and chamber music, I heard performers play and then the recording of that performance reproduced on Cabasse speakers in the same hall. That was 30 years ago and it was practically impossible to tell a difference between the live and the reproduced performances. They even performed blind tests behind an acoustic veil. Impossible to tell a difference.
Very impressive, but I feel it would have been quite another story to capture the sound of a big orchestra in a perfect recording and have it reproduced as convincingly.
Right, in a concert hall, it’s relatively easy, the space is appropriately
large for the music. Not gonna happen in the living room.
Recorded music is a construct. RE: your interview with engineer concerning 20 different compression types.
My wife, the quilt maker, says she loves ALL of your shirts, and fantasizes about raiding your closet. This is GREAT for me! While she's drooling over your shirts she's actually being subjected to a wonderful brainwashing :):):). So, about a week or so ago when I was viewing your Klipsch RP-600M review (AGAIN!), I causally said out loud, "I should probably try those out." And she said, "YEAH! Why don't you?!" Well, just knock me over with a feather! I mean, we have NO room! None. We came here to Germany in 2014 to start caring for her elderly and ailing parents, and we're living in the one bedroom mother-in-law apartment...after having lived in a very big home back in the states. Yet, here she is agreeing to stuff in some more crap. WOW! You're still a real salesman Steve-O. :)
First, thanks for making all these audiophile oriented videos Steve, I'm enjoying them. I was wondering if you have ever experienced any eerie experiences while listening at high volume to recordings through your system that you couldn't explain? I'm not referring to a system malfunction.
I am a speaker. You are a speaker. My room is a speaker. We are all speakers.
Not only does this happen for me. When it does, I buy whatever makes it happen. Last time it was the Shuoer EJ07 IEM.
I once listened to Pink Floyd’s ‘Dogs of War Live’ with Sony xm3 wireless headphones. Sony has an app for them and I think I set it to outdoor theater mode. I was blown away by the canon fire. I couldn’t reproduce that sound I got in any other headphone (tried seinheisser 800
Audeze, etc) but couldn’t. It was just that pair of phones.
This has long intrigued me. The telephone issue doesn't surprise me since the reflections of the space are well within the bandwidth of a telephone line but the other things.... I think in part it's what I call the launch factor, rise time, whatever. I also think unrestrained dynamics within the dynamic envelope make a lot of difference. Beyond that I've no idea. I've had things sound shockingly right in conditions that should be terrible but don't know why. My substantial system is great but sometimes I almost wonder if we're chasing the wrong things or something. It's like it gives us these cool substitute pleasures but not the real core. Obviously I don't know.
A lot of what you heard in your example experiences Steve that made it sound real to you was because of the longer decay and reverberation times of the reflections which you don't hear typically in a recording or from your listening room. Another thing that can distinguish the sound of live versus reproduced sound is dynamics. These sound qualities can be captured in a recording but often are not, the closest we get is with a binaural recording and with IEMs or headphones. But most recordings today are close miked with some added artificial reverb and compressed and limited so it just isn't going to sound real in our listening rooms no matter how much we spend in time and money to chase the perfect sound. So just try to be happy with what you have and get into the music and don't obsess over the equipment.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention binaural recordings over headphones. The first time I heard one of those I was seriously impressed. Still am, actually. But as you say, it’s still possible to get a better sense of “actually live” through a phone (despite which none of my iPhone bootlegs have ever sounded anything but crap)