Sonic Origins - The Digital Foundry Tech Review - Good... But Should Have Been Great
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- On paper, this should have been the definitive collection of the classic Genesis/Mega Drive Sonic games. Built on Christian Whitehead's Retro Engine, the technological underpinnings are there - but a whole host of technical problems and a general lack of polish contribute to a release that promises so much but falls at the last hurdle.
Music in this video (In Order of Appearance)
Fluvial Beat Deposits - Simon Stålenhag
Sky High Zone (YM2612) - Savaged Regime
Tidal Tempest 'G" Mix - Sonic CD
Stardust Speedway - Sonic CD
Turquoise Hill Zone - Sonic Chaos SAGE Demo
Angel Island (Good Future) - Savaged Regime
Carnival Night - Sonic 3 Prototype
Ice Cap Zone Act 1 - Sonic Origins
Palmtree Panic "G" - Sonic CD
Sky Battalion - Freedom Planet
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There was no reason to rush this out the door. It's not like they would lost sales from delaying the game for a couple of months. It's not a horrible release, but SEGA's lack of consistency has long been their biggest problem. They have certainly lost fans and sales because of that.
typical AAA execs who's surprised?
-lack of consistency
Sega, Capcom, Square...there's a trend here.
"There was no reason to rush this out the door" - I have two words for you: Sonic's Birthday
Sega wanted the game out by June 23, period. Stealth stated over on Twitter that he and his team knew the game wasn't finished and asked Sega for more time, but they said nope. He even asked them to patch the bugs and they stonewalled him. Eventually they may pull Headcannon back in the fix the issues, but who knows when (or if) that'll happen.
@@Konic_and_Snuckles that's entirely on SEGA . this collection could've been out on Sonic's 30th birthday and finished if they used their heads and started development earlier.
@@spvrda Oh, I know. And yet every media publisher pulls this last minute shit notwithstanding. Game publishers, anime publishers, film publishers, etc. That's why there's so many day one patches, OVAs, and director's cuts.
They clearly wanted to release it on the 31st anniversary right down to the day, even if known bugs hadn't been resolved yet. I don't know why June 23rd was more important than quality.
I wonder if Mario 64 was released that day to take attention away from the anniversary at the time
an "anniversary" release just reads better to investors than a random release day
The difference in instrumentation of the beta tracks is jarring. I didn't know what to think at first. But during gameplay I didn't find it distracting and even bobbed to the music. The new versions are fine, but I wish there was an option to change to the actual beta tunes, like in Spyro Reignited. I still vastly prefer them.
I understand there may be legal issues but there is no way I can personally play Sonic 3 with different music. That’s heresy.
Ice Cap 2 and the competition theme are the same as the prototype versions, so it seems like the official replacements are actually just from an even earlier prototype. The only original composition is the super theme which is why it uses the Sonic 4 instruments. That makes it even worse, they just didn't have the more polished versions for all the songs on hand, despite them being public :|
@@succojones I don't know if the replacements are from an earlier prototype or just the same production assets they used for S&KC, fact is that they are factually earlier drafts than in the prototype that was released. Possibly because the aforementioned "production assets" may have been the first conversion step from composer demo pitches, which got then changed up and polished in the game's internal sound engine (which means, Sonic Team kept making hotfixes as time went on, which were almost certainly not preserved properly because back then source/version control was wacky and unreliable), until November 1993 turned around. Proof of this is some tracks unused in the prototype like Sky Sanctuary, which presents some notation changes that are different from the final Sonic 3, but are found again in S&KC. Both in that case, and the one of Prototype VS S&KC/Origins, tracks from the former (i.e. not those featured in S&KC) are filled with flourishes and changes that make the music consistently catchier, compared to the the latter, which almost gives off a sort of incomplete canvas feel.
In other words, SEGA don't have production assets dating from the prototype era, or they are not as easily found. They can't be assed of taking the prototype ones on the grounds of unprofessional behavior or some nonsense. There you have why Origins tracks sound objectively inferior. They are probably from an earlier version of the game than the leaked prototype, but weren't actually ripped off from a prototype per se.
For me, I can't play with those tracks. I just can't. And I was one who didn't think the music was going to be a big deal. But after watching this, I now realize how much Sonic's movement along with the music was such an important combination to the entire experience. The whole thing feels vastly different to me. I'm honestly shocked at how strong this feeling is. Maybe some people can overlook it, and they'll get to enjoy an updated game. I'm rather jealous but this is severely immersion breaking to me.
@@Konic_and_Snuckles man, why do fans always have to do what the devs won't?
Hopefully Sega gets the message and allows the devs to fix these issues with official patches (especially important for the console versions) we need to give them as much feedback like this as possible, excellent video.
For now, as well as fixing the scaling and adding Mania's filters, PC modders have also (already) restored Sonic 3's music, fixed the jump dash issues, fixed the song title names and TONS of other little fixes and improvements to sprites and animations and such.
If the community can fix these issues this fast, the devs sure can, get on it Sega.
Exactly! And are "small" things like the original music mod that keeps bringing me back to the PC and away from consoles
But we shouldn't have to rely on people at home to "fix" games that they didn't make or sell, nor should we have to mess around with mods.
I'm more than capable of it, I've played around with very intricate mods. But that was mostly for fun. I just don't want to have to do that for FIXES on a product that I BOUGHT.
That's like buying a movie on disc or something, only to find the image is washed out and the audio is muffled, so then someone could correct the image and audio and I have to download their version of it. - It's not exactly the same, but definitely about the same principle. - They should stop selling "fixer-uppers" like they're on the second-hand market or something.
Or don't buy half assed BS games again...
@@lusa3002 new from Sonic team:
Sega FUCKING GIVES UP
MAKE YOUR OWN SONIC GAMES IF ITS THAT EASY
They probably expect the community to do it. 😥
OK Sega. This is the part where you acknowledge the screw ups and tell us a fix is coming.
That's the thing though. The developers don't even know if they will be allowed to fix the game. Sega is really a weird company with Western developers.
@@tomstonemale Japanese are all weird. I have been living there (Tokyo, from 2002 to 2014). The more the time passed, the less I understood them... So I gave up and went back to my Country.
It wil be a payd DLC called "Sonic Fixes".
@@tomstonemale That literally makes no sense. Why on earth would they not want them to fix their own game?
@@skins4thewin that's not what I said. Headcannon devs themselves said on twitter they offered and asked Sega for time to fix the game but weren't allowed. Even post-lunch, they don't know if they will be allowed to fix the game.
The museum is kinda weird too. There’s no music at all, just loud beeps. Even if you make your own custom playlist, the shuffle doesn’t work properly. It often plays the songs in the same order every time you start playing music
Thank you for calling out the input latency difference from Sonic Jam! I love Jam but it has unusual latency that people rarely admit. I do think it would have been worth discussing the bonus content in a little more detail here; Jam's Sonic World had an extremely diverse amount of rare and unusual video and historical content that should have been included here as well, but nothing! The museum videos in Origins are embarrassingly sparse, while Jam had a catalog of promos and classic ads.
I always love seeing old ads included as bonus material. Shame Origins didn't include much of that
I actually emulated Jam last month in prep for Origins, only to find that annoying input lag. I can emulate well enough that I have next to zero latency when it comes to raw Genesis roms, and other Saturn games played perfectly fine on the inputs with Retroarch and Kronos, but Jam just inherently had that awkward delay that I didn't even finish Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1 before giving up on those versions.
I loved Sonic Jam, and I hope the Sonic World eventually gets released in an update with maybe Knuckles Chaotix (even if emulated) to the game list. I hope we see updates.
Not to mention that the Sonic Gem versions will drop some frames from time to time. They are less smooth than the original versions. Furthermore, as they use CDDA audio, the music transition and loops lag a little.
@@alexsilva28 Jam had way much more content than Origins which frankly feels like a scam.
Just want to add a minor addition to this: Sonic 1 has "missing" functionality from its earlier Retro Engine port, mostly. The game's character select only allows for choosing Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles individually and is missing the option to play with Sonic & Tails together. However, this is actually still able to be selected within the final game by going into the level select and choosing Sonic & Tails that way, but you cannot save your game doing that. It's a baffling error that the option is missing when it's still easily accessible and fully functioning.
Also I didn't see any discussion about the new Blue Spheres levels added as a bonus to S3&K.
Bump!
Bump!
I was like "How can Christian whitehead / headcannon release a sonic game with forced bilinear filtering?"
ah... sonic team...
shame about the music, those carnival zone and ice cap zone themes are burned into my brain :D
Who keeps giving them money? I have to know.
Someone wake me up when they fix the filtering!
the jetzons - hard times
I don't really care, I'll use the anti aliasing anyways. I would have preferred scan lines but the anti aliasing is an acceptable substitute.
And before you jump on me I'll tell you why I prefer the antialising: because I grew up playing videogames on regular consumer TVs, you don't see the individual pixels on an average 14 CRT, and than god you don't because they look awful. Pixel hipsters are strange people: we always strive to get the best picture possible, yet they want to see classic games in their worst light.
@@souljastation5463 You don't care? Well, we neither, pal 😉
10:48 Just something to address here, the OG Sonic 1 special stage can rotate as smooth as the remaster does, the graphics for it are there. It was intentionally made clunkier because it presented collision issues that couldn't be solved in a good way. All it takes to make it smooth is to remove an AND instruction iirc.
14:39 I appreciate the in-depth comparison of the soundtracks. Though hearing them side-by-side makes me even sadder about the removal of the classic songs. 😔
This is the sole reason I won't be getting it. I mean, the egregious DLC and glitches are bad enough, but ripping the original superb music out of Sonic 3 is an absolute killer for me. The replacement tracks are absolute garbage. Totally disappointed. :(
The original OSTs are great but they had to remove a couple tracks for copyright issues possibly with MJ. Those few removals is certainly no deal breaker for me although ice cap zone 2 will be missed.
The number of bugs is unacceptable imo. I seriously hope they fix all of this
Fr Imma keep playing mania
John, we are grateful you've covered these issues. Hopefully the developers will see these issues and fix them, as most of them are fairly simple to fix. I hope they can add the CRT and sharpening modes as well, at least to consoles.
The developers are fully aware of the bugs and were upset they weren't allowed to iron them out before releasing it.
Sega forced their hands.
The lack of a CRT filter to me was shocking.
How anyone looks at art made for scanlines, without scanlines, and thinks it's fine is beyond me.
@@retropulse03 totally agree!
@@retropulse03 Not to nitpick here, but a "scanline filter" is not the same thing as photon gun actually shooting those to the inside of the tube display. The art/graphics of old games accounts for THAT, the process and speed by which the display works. It's not just "show lines over graphics and problem solved" like a filter. It apparently helps a little, but not the same thing. John explained this in one of the DF Direct Weekly videos.
@@Karls_Clips you got a source for that? Not doubting you, just if there is some article or interview I'd be interested.
Well according to a key developer seems a lot of these bugs weren't actually in the version they sent for polishing up over at sega. Sega butchers the shit outta the more polished and well made version the development team sent. Which shows a massive lack of respect and care that sega has been showing over the past decade. Not that the developer is completely innocent, but man. Sega really fucks over small development teams like this.
Did Sega release an older beta build instead of the final version? I don't see how this even happens.
@@3lH4ck3rC0mf0r7 no, they got the correct build, but made changes to it
@@3lH4ck3rC0mf0r7 No, according to Simon Thomley Sega did not use an earlier build of their work for the final release. From what I got from his Twitter thread it sounds like the whole process was a rushed job for some reason.
I would pay money for just the product headcanon produced. Seriously.
@@CaptViewtiful98 What's with game corporations and rushing everything these days...
By the gods, lets get some polish in post-release patches, I love the ideal of what this collection is meant to be.
Fantastic work as always John! Besides the technical issues, I'm pretty bummed out that they didn't include the SMS versions of the original 2 games.
While outside the scope of this video, I would love a comparison to the "Sonic-1-2-2013-Decompilation" and "Sonic 3 A.I.R." projects, seeing as they have comparable featuresets.
sms?
@@Voltricity435 Sega Master System
@@GASQBDUV ah
Only things you missed were that can't go above 60fps, the original versions were removed from stores, and that it uses Denuvo - but man you went all out for this video. The amount of stuff covered here is insane. Saved me 60 bucks ❤ props John
The game is $40
53 buck in cdn
@@bman2k4 60cad if you want the full game
@@callumdointhings5 WOW. Hard pass I WILL stay with sega genesis collection on pc
From what I've seen mods should be able to fix the issues, but honestly 1/2/cd are already fan-ported to the PC via the decompliations of the retro-engine ports, and Sonic 3 AIR, while not the same, is just as good.
Sega rushing their games out is a universal constant. They'll never learn. "Gotta go fast" has it's limits.
I agree about Sega needing to slow down with these releases. I'd rather them be perfectly polished out of the box rather than having to rely on updates to fix the issues. On that note, apparently a patch dropped already that fixes the blurred image filter, so that's a start.
I really hope this does get the Doom rerelease treatment soon, this release does still have a ton of potential but there's just too many issues right now.
Doom's issue was that it got plague by DRM, this collection had an immensive list of bugs and glitches that unless you are casual player it will bother you in a way.
I bought the switch ports of Doom and Doom 2 early so I know what you mean. they were completely crappy at first but now they're amazing ports worthy of being on my switch
@@VOAN They had other big issues like wrong aspect ratio and music speed but are now perfect ports with many mods available too.
@@ramonandrajo6348 - Piracy is like finding a questionable disc in a dirty alley and just shoving it into your computer.
@@michaelmonstar4276 tell me you dont know what piracy is without telling me
This is why I love DF Retro. No other reviews go as deep as these. Keep up the good work!
It seems Sega really is trying their best to ruin things that should be a slam dunk. If they want any hope of not going bankrupt they need to make some massive changes to their employment. The ppl in charge right now simply aren't doing a good enough job & are making awful decisions that will undoubtedly hurt the company in the long term.
Yeah
Sega just doesn't give a shit. They haven't given a shit since they left the console industry. Now they give even less of a shit.
@@RawPower867 Pretty accurate, at least when it comes to listening to the fans.
I don't understand how no one ever mentions you can make Tails carry sonic now. You used to have to be playing co-op to do that, and it only worked in 3. Now you can do it, by yourself, in both 2 and 3. This completely changed how the game worked for me in so many areas.
Couldn’t he carry Sonic in 2?
@@mitchjames9350 I don’t think tails could even fly in the original sonic 2
@@mitchjames9350 Nope. In fact tails can't even fly in-game in the original Sonic 2.
@@yourself1210 He'd fly back on-screen, but yeah you couldn't make him fly. Never made any sense to me.
no one is talking about it because you could have Tails carry you in the mobile versions of both Sonic 1 and 2 so this isn't some revolutionary new feature they introduced just for this collection.
These DF Retros have become a happy place for me. There will be videos of games released before I was born or conscious and I'll still love them. Keep it up guys.
It’s not retro
Woah. That tails infinite stuck jump loop is kinda of big issue. How about when a second player is controlling him? If player 2 gets left behind (which can happen often) will he never respawn by you until the stage is done?
Asking the right questions.
I experienced a glitch back in the day that allowed Tails to keep spawning past the point he was supposed too. S3&K. It was useful during those later boss fights.
Don't quote me on this, but I think Tails just automatically respawns once Sonic gets far enough away from him. It feels like in Origins this "threshold" on the distance so to speak is a lot longer than it should be.
Yes it unfortunately happens even with a player is controlling him. Every now and again you can hear the Tails death sound and he will respawn but if Sonic is trucking along you’ll definitely finish the level before that happens.
Litterally the best summary of sonic origins I've seen. You did a great job going over the different music tracks & their respective versions, the issues the some games exibit, & the hedgehog engine used to run these games.
Sincerest thanks for making this in depth Sonic Origins review video John. Like always nobody I've heard review this game has your attention to detail. The review was awesome, and thanks again John. You're hard work is inspiring.
John you don't realize how much we appreciate you for this. Being able to deep dive into all of those issues, compare them to historical versions because you are a fan is an absolute delight!
For 40 bucks, I want my Michael Jackson tracks!
Amen
*Brad Buxer tracks
@@amarokorama tomayto, tomahto.
For $20 bucks I'm glad I didn't get those. The ones we got are superior.
The different music is an absolute deal breaker for me. Sonic 3 AIR is still the best way to play
I'm exactly the same!!! I'm avoiding this because of it !! No original music no buy .RIP Michael Jackson.
same, the music is what makes these games timeless. Sega should just pay the asking price OR gives us music DLC for like $5 if they don't want to front the bill.
@@dreamxhollow Just paying it might not be an option since music studios are very protective of their music or their perceived value. They may not see the difference between a 90s rerelease or the newest Grand Theft Auto and want to charge either company the same price for their music. Which Sega isn't gonna go overboard paying for music for a few stages without charging us $60 for this collection.
@@arizona24joe I wouldn't mind paying thr pricetag if it was all high quality. These games are worth it imo.
@@arizona24joe Problem is Sega never properly paid for the music in the first place.
Quotes from two members of the 'MJ music team':
“I believe that there is a lawsuit going on or about to go on,” Cirocco Jones told one Sonic fan in a 2014 email exchange about his work on the game. “Sega owes a lot of people money from the Sonic stuff.”
“You can contact my lawyer,” Bobby Brooks, another Sonic 3 contributor, wrote to the same fans. “Why would I just give info to a stranger while im [sic] in the middle of some legal shit.”
Meanwhile Sega been weird, even having Billie Jean playing in a Sonic video on their official Tik Tok just the other day. Sonic co-creator Yuji Naka was disappointed at the lack of the 'MJ team' tunes and surprised at the Tik Tok video. He wants the original music,
Awesome DF Retro intro! You guys are amazingly talented
I didn’t think the music would make a difference but when I got to carnival night zone it was so immersion breaking I had to turn off the music and play the real theme from my phone and when I got to ice cap I did the same thing.. those new songs do not fit the levels at all and ruin the feel of the levels making me want to beat them as fast as possible so I don’t have to hear the song anymore but with the original I would take my time to explore the level vibing to the music, sonic needs music that fits the level and aesthetic perfectly because music is one of the key components of the classic sonic games
Here's the funny thing. Those WERE the original tracks. There's a prototype dated many months before release, and sure enough, it used the PC tracks. The Michael Jackson came along and composed some new tracks, which is what you hear in the Genesis version.
I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Sonic Origins, but there were many tiny issues that collectively made this title fall short of feeling like a truly definitive classic Sonic collection.
I was gutted to see certain Sonic 3 tracks removed, but hopefully this is a game the developers will fix, optimise and add to in future.
I’m also pretty sure the Missions island is the Sonic Spinball location. I know it’s not the most popular classic Sonic game, but I would have loved to play that on the Retro engine at 60FPS.
Thanks for another great detailed review John!
No matter how hard I try to like the new songs in the last couple of Sonic 3 levels, it just doesn't sound right, I'd love for them to restore the originals
@@rolandwillemse4202proto or mj
Great video John!
You always go above and beyond with not only graphics, but also audio quality and gameplay accuracy.
The community honestly doesn’t deserve you 👌
Extremely useful. Thanks.
Now I know to get this game at the end of the year, like on Black Friday or during the Winter sale, instead of getting it now.
Thank you all for your hard work!
I wanted to buy this collection but it’s near full price for 4 games that have been re released dozens of times before especially sonic 1 2 and CD
Yeah me too
Will defo wait for a sale
Sonic Team should have never touched this collection and instead commissioned Whitehead/Headcannon to manage the entire thing.
Yes, Sonic Team mismanages EVERYTHING!
Man, what a loss on Ice Cap Zone's music. The original tune was iconic.
Hard times, eh?
@@claridagio I see what you did there!
This release makes me sad because I KNOW the core developers are a passionate and talented group. When I saw the pre-release DLC chart I knew the game was in real trouble. Clear sign of publisher meddling and a calloused attitude towards fans. And let’s face it, us fans are the only thing keeping this franchise alive & relevant at all. I think the response to a rushed buggy release would’ve much kinder had it not been for the DLC money grubbing and Denuvo. But all added up, consumers have no reason to believe Sega will even allow these things to get fixed. The main one for me is the pixel filters!! It’s already in the engine!! WTF
A few other things I've noticed:
Sound in Sonic 2 is gimped. Listen to the ring collection sounds when you rapidly pick up rings. They tend to just stick to one channel of audio.
The Sonic 1 special stages seem obscenely more complicated. The buttons are extremely sensitive so you'll constantly be reversing, or speeding up and down within a few frames of one another.
The audio is actually really bad (at least on PS5 that I've noticed) and seems horribly compressed. It's not even subtle, it sounds like it was recorded at 96 kbps rather than 128 or higher. They're pretty bad.
--To be fair, I was also hearing this when listening via the DualSense's headphone jack and wirelessly communicating with the console. With that being said, however, I've never heard another game sound like that with the same exact setup (which I use CONSTANTLY)
One quick fix for the S2 Tails issue. Hold up and press jump. Once you hear Tails' flying sound effect, rapidly rock left and right on the d-pad. If Tails' flying audio just cuts out, he should spawn in in a second or two. It's not foolproof, but I've had a lot of luck with it.
I think John is right in this case. It's not about Sega screwing over the devs - it's about Sega not learning their lesson about crunch and releasing an unpolished product. They have done this countless times, and they continue to do so. I'm just hoping that in the coming weeks, we'll get some news regarding a patch to resolve these issues.
The 2011 PC port of Sonic CD used just 80kbps(!) Ogg Vorbis, so you're probably just hearing more of the same. :(
(Not sure why they so desperately need the entire soundtrack to fit into ~25 MB. It's not like anyone would complain if each game was 25 or even 75 MB bigger.)
@@3dmarth Ogg vorbis has higher quality at lower bitrates but most devs usually use variable bitrate to save space and keep quality.
@@Epsilonsama Sorry, I should have been more specific: it's _nominally_ 80kbps, and most of these tracks average out between 75-85.
Vorbis does hold up well at lower bitrates, but I think anything under 128 is still pushing it (especially when there's easily room for 256kbps or more). Opus is supposed to be a fair bit more efficient, and even it starts to sound just a bit rough as it approaches 64kbps.
23:16 Oh my GOD thank you for addressing this, Tails ceaseless jumping is SO ANNOYING. Please address this SEGA, holy ****.
Th developer already issued an apology for the state of the game, they talked about how Sega modified the team's final submitted build:
"Integration introduced some wild bugs that conventional logic would have one believe were our responsibility -- a lot of them aren't," the developer explained. "Regarding Origins, we were outsiders creating a separate project that was then wrangled into something entirely different. We knew going in that there would be a major time crunch and we worked ourselves into the ground to meet it just so this would even be made and released."
"This is frustrating. I won't lie and say that there weren't issues in what we gave to Sega, but what is in Origins is also not what we turned in. Integration introduced some wild bugs that conventional logic would have one believe were our responsibility- a lot of them aren't."
"A lot was beyond our control. We asked to do major fixes near submission but weren't allowed due to submission and approval rules. We asked about delays early and repeatedly but were told they weren't possible."
So, they basically said the bugs are SEGA's fault for the most part.
Sega are their own worst enemy. They should hand the rights to Sonic over and stop dragging the character through the mud.
Thats fair, but Sonic Team has definitely not done themselves any favors over the last few years. Other Sega published series don't have the problems that Sonic Teams games do, heck even other Sonic games don't (Sonic Racing made by Sumo Digital, Sonic Mania made by Whitehead).
I could be wrong of course, but it really feels like the studio is just not good at organizing and hitting deadlines for the ideas they want to develop compared to other studios. Sonic Origins isn't a hard game to make, there's definitely two sides to that story
sources?
@@kupokinzyt the developer's tweets @HCStealth
Anti aliasing is NOT worthless, I actually like it a lot, I can't stand sharp pixels, they hide the detail of characters and background and in motion it's hard to keep track of the action. There were no sharp pixels back then with CRTs and I don't like when I'm forced to them now, but filters should be optional though, to fit the player's personal taste, this collection should add the option to turn then on and off.
15:59: The music is actually pretty good and a vibe to listen too😆 (i would stop fighting the boss and dance with him). Shame they had to change it!😔
I love how much you love palmtree panic. It is a really good track.
Time until "bespoke" 3:19
Also, "key"
I scrolled way too long to find this comment. Thank you.
Great video - this has re affirmed that I'm not spending £35 on this - pretty embarrassing to have so many glitches etc and after reading comments from people that worked on this I'm actually starting to dislike Sega as a company
i really appreciate that you included the music comparisons, ive heard lots of complaints but nobody put them side to side until this.
My Sonic Origins version arrived in 1997 with Sonic Jam for the Sega Saturn, this is where I played 16-bit Sonic more than on the Mega Drive itself. But I always felt they should have added Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic CD and all 8-bit versions from the Master System as unlockables, then, I'd be in paradise as a preteen.
26:00 - sneaking in music from what started as a Sonic fangame. I hear what you did there!
The time I spent in Sonic Jam's 3D world trying to wish a full 3D Sonic game into existence... It's actually pretty sad now that I think about it.
I’d die for a modern 32 bit style 3D sonic.
I wasn't really expecting Sonic 3 Complete levels of customization but Origins has basically none whatsoever. You can't even choose which level layouts you want in case you prefer the harder Sonic 3 stages vs S3&K. For rebuilt ports there should have been far more options included than out of a fan made hack.
Did you see Yuji Naka's twitter about him being surprised and confused the 'MJ Team' music is gone, especially with Sega's official TikTok showing someone in a Sonic costume doing the Billie Jean 'cup is too hot' trend? So they're literally using ACTUAL Michael Jackson music on their tiktok on Sonic's birthday but not having the 'MJ Team' music in Sonic 3. A lil confusing.
And yeah Sega owe the MJ music team money and that's why the music was changed.
“I believe that there is a lawsuit going on or about to go on,” Cirocco Jones told one Sonic fan in a 2014 email exchange about his work on the game. “Sega owes a lot of people money from the Sonic stuff.”
“You can contact my lawyer,” Bobby Brooks, another Sonic 3 contributor, wrote to the same fans. “Why would I just give info to a stranger while im [sic] in the middle of some legal shit.”
Once again DF is doing QA work for developers and publishers alike.
Would be really interested to see what Digital Foundry thinks of Sonic Origins in the context of the existence of fan port / hack projects like Sonic Forever, Sonic Absolute and Sonic A.I.R.
I really wish I had discovered those before dropping 45 dollars on this unpolished stink :). That’s what I get for not thinking about the series much though and stupidly buying a shiny new release.
Highly recommend those fan made pc ports to anyone. Work better, sound better, run better.
Just a thing to note, in the original Sonic CD, the loop points were in the game but were unused sadly until the 2011 remaster.
I looooove this look at this pack. Thank you DF!
Oh man! Ice Cap Zone is my favorite song.
A new generation will never get to enjoy one of the most delightful chip-tunes of old school Sonic, what a shame.
the audio comparisons are exactly what i wanted for this, great job guys
After I've been scarred by the horrendous Sonic Colors "remaster" last year, I'll gladly take a totally acceptable compilation. Price tag us ridiculous though.
If the price tag doesn't work for you, and you're on pc (likely since you're on df) just pirate it
@@zaidlacksalastname4905 There's one problem. Denuvo.
Ultimate is better than the original IMHO.
@@paulbell3682 Well, your opinion is wrong.
@@pikachu896 The originality is shining through your reply.
The title says it perfectly
It’s why I got the Mega drive collection on ps4
Even though it doesn’t have S3K it has rewind and customization options that are joyous and doesn’t cost that much because it’s on sale for under $10 rn!
With horrible input lag don’t forget about that
@@Lnblackberry48 yeah with horrible input lag
You can play the smoother rotating bonus stages of Sonic 1 on a real Mega Drive, by using gameshark codes. In fact, the gameshark codes remove a code in the game that causes the maze to be as slow, because normally it was smooth. But someone at Sega thought the slow version is better.
They changed it because of collision issues which were not a thing on retro engine. I imagine the change couldn't have been easy to swallow, especially since Yuji Naka likes boasting about it.
Great review. Too many people out there calling this release “complete trash” when it isn’t. It isn’t perfect, like it SHOULD be, but it holds up just fine
That’s kind of what I’m getting too! I just want to play the fucking game, I don’t give a fuck that a line on Sonic’s face is blurry during a cutscene!
@@Ludwig1970 I have the game bro. If the music changes don’t bother you, buy it. Worst comes to worst you’ll encounter a minor bug here or there. Nothing gamebreaking. And I have the steam version, which is supposedly the worst one…runs fine
@@TheJmack90 Yeah I’m not sentimental about the music. These game reviewers are becoming wine tasters! All of the good things he said about this game far outweigh the bad.
@@Ludwig1970 Because people like to focus on the negative more than the positive. In this case it’s getting out of hand. Like I get the criticisms, and there are more definitive modded versions, but on its own it isn’t close to being bad. Go for it!
John definitely does the most in depth analyses.
No comparison. That's why I love his and Alex's analysis, as opposed to the rest of the team. That and the charisma.
@@arthurcuesta6041 What about those two are charismatic?!?? Out of curiosity…
Richard has much more experience and can notice what everyone else Is missing, but Is the boss and does not expose himself, Is more into technology than games these days, but he Is the best of the crew. John is improved a lot since the old days, i followed DF since the First video... Alex Is very good but too centered on limited game generes, he Is the PC master race gaming ray tracing guy. The other guy Is a very talented reviewer Who eat all the staff the other dont want to deal, and oliver the new guy Is a TV Expert as far as i know
@@Mr.Honest247 Don't know, maybe the passion they have about what they do. Tom and Richard are very monotone.
"Normally the tempo of the music in blue spheres is supposed to increase"
...Im 100% ok with this
5:59 I know the Switch isn't the most powerful system out there, but Sega couldn't get a MENU to run at 60 fps? Come on!
Yeah even Sonic Mania runs at 60fps on Switch.
The menu barely runs even on Xbox Series X, it freezes for 10-20 seconds every time you go to it and occasionally throws a hard crash just for fun too
Bad engine? seems pretty shite.
@@sssembler it’s not that it’s a bad engine. Sonic unleashed, generation, I believe sonic lost world, and forces all used the hedgehog engine. Sonic forces basically ran at a locked 60fps on PS4 and Xbox one. I think this is just lacking proper optimization
@@crestofhonor2349 shouldn’t even need optimization for a game like this the ps5 and series x should be benching a 100 of these games at 8k 60 easily
What I want next, is a similar treatment given to the original Master System Sonic games, because bafflingly, there is no way of playing those games (lawfully) on modern machines.
For some reason SEGA only ever release the Mega Drive/Genesis versions over and over again.
Unfortunately; the only way to play them nowadays, is (illegally) through emulation, on either PC or a jailbroken console, unless you have hundreds of dollars to buy an original working Master System, plus all three games.
I just don’t understand it; it’s as if the executives at SEGA, have completely forgotten their existence.
The music was so good in Sonic 3. It's a shame Sega couldn't get the rights to the music.
The fact you can't turn of filtering is a joke. What a blurry mess.
Shoutouts to the use of Fluvial Beat Deposits in the video intro, makes me wanna boot up SRB2K again lmao
I like the collection, but those DLCs should have been in the main game!
A very balanced and fair review John! I still think I'm going to wait for a price drop and the bugs to all get cleared up.
Wow, here I thought this is gonna be a re-release of previously released versions. But it seems they actually place great effort in enhancing the games.
Now it's on my to-buy list.
Great analysis!
The video not only is useful but like every DF RETRO document is like the ancient magazines I was keeping with passion in my childhood. Thank You!! 🎮
I knew something was up with the visuals as soon as I started. It doesn't make sense for Sonic on the Genesis Switch app to look better than this new update.
Excellent, excellent review! I really appreciate how many aspects you consider and I can only imagine how much work was put into this thorough top-notch review. Thanks a lot!
The music changes in Sonic 3 (My favorite Sonic game) is a cardinal sin IMO, so this was an easy pass for me.
it's a deal breaker for me too!. unless they fix it with a patch, I'll skip this. I still have the cartridges so I can still play the original with the real music.
@@pelgervampireduck just play sonic 3 air thats better than the genesis version and the origins version
Let's hope Sonic Origins Plus is much better.
It would only be SLIGHTLY better, let's be honest 🙃
So sad about Ice Cap Zone getting the prototype music. The original is my favorite Sonic track.
It's based on the song "Hard Times" by The Jetzons. So we can at least enjoy that.
Such an excellent analysis. You go John
At this point Sega should just hand the Sonic franchise over to Christian Whitehead. 😅
I just got Sonic Mania after playing Origins and even halfway through the first zone I was like I'm getting the DLC for sure! So I would agree, Sega should hand over the Keys to him and his crew, except for Music those should go to the S&K crew as that's my favorite Sonic Soundtrack oh and Sonic Boom from Sonic CD.
John possesses an astounding amount of knowledge and a very sharp eye for this stuff. Amazing stuff man.
Just stop talking over other members during DF Direct and you all good.
I’m hoping they fix some of the issues with the new engine not working properly in some platforming areas such as a Knuckles path in Flying Battery Zone when trying to reach a spring. Also, they removed most of the grappling ropes in Sandopolis Zone for some reason.
Yeah that’s what I’m hoping too. Hope there are more patches coming.
A really sensible and well considered review. There is way too much noise about the issues in Sonic Origins. You would think it was a bad game with all the noise. This is one of if not the best ways to play many of these games now. There are some issues and once again Sonic Team/Sega cannot seem to understand the concept of not rushing out a product. However the end product is still very good. Could be better of course and i really hope they let the team work on the game again so a patch can be released to fix many of the issues. The Michael Jackson music thing really is unfair to kick Sega over though. There is likely unbelievably complex legal matters involved with that music now unfortunately.
I really like the usage of the song that's usually associated with Sonic Robo Blast 2 Kart in the fandom, at the beginning of the video. Nice touch.
It blows my mind that they didn't keep releasing new sonic mania collaboration games with Christian whitehead.
Well, in the case of the filter options, at least that's something that could be worked out in a later patch.
It's insane how Super Mario All-Stars did a better job with improving its classic games than Sonic Origins did.
IN 1993, ON THE SNES! Think about that for a second.
I'll be honest I was excited to get this collection because it was all native ports and I have so many fond memories of these games from when I was younger. But Sonic 3 not having the original music kills it for me I have zero interest in playing Sonic 3 now because that music is so integral to my memories
Only 3 levels, all the rest have the original tracks. Personally it could've been worse. They removed most of the songs I don't care much for
@@lolcat You won't understand unless you're a fan of Sonic 3. The soundtrack in that game is part of the experience.
@@lolcat Still a deal breaker for me. Three levels without orginal music is three too many.
Now, I for one actually prefer the Prototype tracks over the Release tracks, and I would have been satisfied if they rendered out the Prototype tracks using the Genesis soundchip, like those used in Sonic 3 Angel Island Remastered. But instead they used awful recreations that somehow sound _worse_ than the original PC port.
@@juicemanvon9859 Played through Sonic 3 multiple times on the Genesis. The original soundtrack is absolutely not necessary for the experience, only a *good* soundtrack is. People can want the original, people can prefer the original, but the rest of the game 100% stands on its own without it.
How is the Sonic Team not embarrassed at this point?! It's a bad thing saying they're involved now.
My biggest issue with the prototype S3 songs isn't even the compositions, it's that the instrumentation sounds very different and inconsistent with the rest of the game. It's also very dull and lacks punch. The original prototypes sound fine.
Great video as always, I'm really interested about the input lag though. On PC there absolutely is a small amount of delay, I went back to the original carts to verify afterwards, and it felt far more responsive there. This could simply be because of Denuvo, unfortunately.
I’m really mixed on the music. I like some of the beta music better and some of it not so much. Nonetheless that FM synth sound on original hardware I really love. I’ve always been fond of genesis music over what I hear as way too high pitch on SNES.
I am happy to stick with Sonic Jam on the Sega Saturn. I will play this out of curiosity, but only once it hits a massive sale.
Ironically most of these did get patched as of version 2.0.2
What everyone now wanted to know. Thanks.
Sega's incompetence to even get these retro ports right on modern platforms just further proves why they're no longer in the console hardware business...
Thanks for the video! I bought this and I’ve been enjoying the games, especially S3&K. I get the issues, sure, but there are always the original cartridges when you want to be a purist. Hopefully,some patches will bring the collection to a better place.
Just buy the Sega Megadrive/ Genesis Collection for PS3/360. It has all the Sonic games as they were all original tracks in Sonic 3 also.
They said there might not be a patch to fix the issues from the original developer as sega hasn’t told them to fix
I don't think it's a matter of being a purist, it's more about the principle of we should get a good product... especially when we're paying good money for it.
@@WllKiedSnake Thanks, but I already have the original cartridges of the Mega Drive versions. I can always play those if I want.
@@SilentShurikenSS Sure, I get it. It's still a decent product all things considered.
If anyone is watching this in 2024 and still curious about this game.
They have fixed the game looking blurry
I didn't experience the Blurry one but I can imagine because I recently refunded the Genesis collection on Xbox and the Bilinear filter for that was AWFUL. Old as dirt emulators do it better
I’m consistently disappointed by Sonic Team and their releases that always seem to miss the mark. SEGA could have easily hired the Mania team to fully handle this project, and we would have ended up with a much better and more robust product.
As a lifelong Sonic fan, I can easily say that Mania is my favorite Sonic game ever, and arguably the best in the franchise. I can’t help but think that SEGA and Sonic Team are somehow soured or even jealous that a team of western Sonic modders/fans achieved what they have never been able to, and that’s somehow part of the reason why they insisted on developing this in-house. (And why we’re not getting a Mania 2.)
Frankly, I feel like Sonic Team botches literally everything they touch, and I’m out of patience for them. I’ve seen what can be accomplished when SEGA relinquishes control over to talented and passionate developers (Whitehead, Headcannon, etc.), and the fact that they choose to not continue pursuing those avenues of development shows me they don’t really care about the quality of their final product. I’m done supporting Sonic titles until something changes.
But headcannon did develop the ports? Sonic Team just made the frontend. The issue was that SEGA higher ups didn't let them get the extra time they needed. A problem which has been detrimental to every other sonic anniversary game and one SEGA will definitely not fix. 06 and many others were ruined due to SEGA's rushing.
Sonic Team is still SO jealous of the Mania developers! I was impressed with Whitehead's 2011 Sonic CD port, and his Mania is the LAST great 2D Sonic game.
DF Retro is absolutely my favorite part of Digital Foundry.
What does the “60 fps+” (listed in the store page of Xbox Series X version) mean in this release? It used to say 120fps but was changed to 60fps+ before release. Curious if it really does go above 60. as long as you have tv that supports it.
Thats false advertising because the game only runs at 60fps.