How Fast Can Oars Propel a Boat?
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2024
- Welcome to another episode of Trailmakers! Today I want to see how fast I can make this boat go using only oars in a rowing motion.
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As someone who did crew, this was just a tad painful.
Firstly, you can only go as fast as the tip of your oar. More oars just makes you accelerate faster.
Increasing the length of the oars would increase the speed of the tips, thus increasing your speed.
Second, the fact that you fling the oars back to the front slows you down. It sends a bunch of mass forwards at high speeds which slows you down. In rowing we focus a lot on smoothness of the recovery portion of the stroke. Thats why your boat slows down so fast between strokes.
We also rotate our oars sideways when out of the water, but I don't know how much impact this has in trailmakers.
Thirdly, there are two types of rowing: sweeping (one oar per person) and sculling (two oars per person). Sculling, which is what you have, is only from boat sizes 1, 2, and 4 (called a single, double and quad). Sweeping, which is the kind with the coxswain (the extra guy steering), comes in sizes of 2, 4, and 8 (called a pair, a four, and an eight).
There are other sizes of both types in some rare cases, but these are generally the standard.
So you pretty much always have a maximum of 8 oars.
Still epic to see though, love your channel.
you can have an octuple, my club had one in storage
These are the kinds of comments I love so much, lol. Thanks!
hope scrap sees this
Great response. I felt like a servo on the oar to simply rotate it 90 when it left the water was an easy fix for the aerodynamics… probably no impact to the speed, but I think it would have helped with the inertia.
@@archive3339
True, we had these for training the newbies, but (as far as I know) there are no real race categories for them.
30:17 "Nothing I do makes a difference!"
The one thing Scrapman _hasn't_ done: increase the oar length.
I’m pretty sure he did tho 13:59
@@bendydream490 and it increased his speed and he never increased their length again
@@brandon14754 Exactly
yeah thats what i thought
I thought he was referring to increasing its length at all but I guess not.
There is an inherent "maximum" speed to a rowboat, which is simply the speed of the oar tip relative to the hull during the wet part of the rowing motion. If the speed of the hull relative to the water matches it exactly, the oar is just dipping into (from its perspective) still water without any force being exerted. Past that speed, the oar is a hydrodynamic brake.
This is thinking as if water was solid and the oars could "mesh" with it, which gives us an upper bound. In reality since water is, suprisingly, liquid, you'll be going slower than that.
Adding oars and tightening timing will get you closer to that theoretical limit, but the only things that will raise it is speed adjustments on the horizontal servos or longer oars.
It doesn't help that one of his oars stayed in the water on both strokes
@@orbitalvenom8498 Yeah that's a weird one. It seemed like he fixed it at the end but it was still acting weird in the outro.
Out of curiosity, do you think he'd have better maximum velocity if he was doing a paddlewheeler?
@@semajniomet981 That would depend on how it's built.
The actual speed might be different, since a lot of other mechanics are at play, but paddlewheel or oar, the speed of the oar's/paddle's tip is the theoretical limit.
If he mounts the paddle wheel on the same type of servo and makes the wheel radius the same as the oar length, he'll have the same limit.
That said, since a paddle wheel doesn't need to constantly change direction, it'd be much easier to mount on a helicopter engine compared to oars, so that gives you access to a faster source of rotation, plus you can make it bigger without much trouble.
I'd say it's easier to build a fast paddlewheel boat than a fast rowboat in Trailmakers, but both are constrained by the same geometry.
@@Poldovico If some of the Paddles were of different length, what negative effects would it have on the paddlewheeler, assuming a single wheel at the aft?
I think lengthening the oars would make a massive difference because they would travel way faster through the water. It would mean they require more strength, but you have an excess anyways.
Yeah. There also is the additional aerodynamics that would have a negative impact as well.
I'm guessing that one or two more blocks could help, but much more and those negatives will start having too much of an impact.
That one AC Black Flag shanty that goes "Roll boysssss roll boys roll" was in my head the whole video
Sally Brown, she's the gal for me boy.
Favorite AC game for me
Multiplayer idea - the anti-rescue challenge;
Each person makes a ground vehicle with 1 engine and a max weight 100kg or so.
They have to try not to be picked up by someone trying to "rescue" them in a flying vehicle with a magnet. Person with the shortest time wins
Here's an video idea, Dog fighting but every round we add more weight.
You mean here is a video idea.
i think they already make that, but with every round they add an g-force/more gravity
@@_Rama_73 I'll see if I can find it.
@@_Rama_73 i mean the more weight idea is diferent from the gravity one bcuz u can chose were are u going to put more weight in the plane
@@chapado-by9os idk if trail makers modles planeing with a fixed drag the higher momentum would probably help
The six oar goes down and forward when the others are instead still up and going forward. which is also why it is going to the left. 28:19(slow the playback speed or use < and >)
I think the problem is that on the way back you push the boat back since the oars (naturally) have very high air resistance. Of course not as much as in the water, but if you were to rotate them 90 degrees that could help a lot. Also, like others say, you can only ever go as fast as the oars move, so try making them longer.
Improvement: make the Oars longer (or the sticks they are on) so you get more speed out of your strength, kinda like in an transmission.
ScrapMan took "row row row your boat gently down the stream!" in an insane level 😂
But without the gently part
VERRY gently indeed 🤣
"Row row row your boat, violently down the stream" lol
@@cadetkohr5508 Came to say that.
One issue you might have is that the ores are in the water before and after the stroke. A still ore is a break, so it's most important to get them in and out of the water while moving with the most of the swing. Might help rotating them when not pulling.
watching ScrapMan not realizing that you can't move faster than tip of the paddle for 30 minutes is some twisted kind of pleasure
@Scrapman
Love your vids man! Maybe try this!:
-Right now your Oars go down in the water just before they pull, in this moment they act as a brake. Letting them go down like 0.1 sec after they start pulling will prevent this.
-Same goes for the moment after the pull. The Oars should leave the water like 0.1 sec before the pulling motion ends instead of after, or its a breaking moment again.
-When the Oars are out of the water they should rotate 90 degrees to avoid a lot of air resistance.
-When the Oars are out of the water they should move with a lot less power to avoid, A: a big momentum of mass in the wrong direction and B: pushing yourself back against the air.
Scrapman, when a block got worse aerodynamics than the 4x1 wedge: eww, lets not use it unless i have to
Scrapman, when a block got similar aerodynamic to the 4x1 wedge: It looks similar, but it's probably not as good as the 4x1 wedge.
hehe yeah, and really how important can aero be at 30-80kph lol
This is really hard to read
11:30 To get rid of the jerkiness you should lower the strength of the servo. It doesn't stop the stops(pun not intended) and might make it less effective, but it will make it more natural, less robotic looking motion.
"911 what's your emergency"
11:35 "My brain is not barining"
I’m watching this at a rowing regatta in Sarasota, so this is really cool thanks for all the amazing content!!!
If u weren’t aiming to make a row boat u could try one of those paddle wheel boat designs like the old steam ships
What makes you think he wasn't trying to make a rowboat?
@@CATel_ I know he was trying to make a row boat. What I mean is next time if he wants to use the paddles to make a faster boat or something he could try using the paddle wheel design
Too much torque
@@mystlcgreatness ah, alright
That wonky oar probably had it's logic hooked up wrong, not the setting on the servos.
I have two things: 1 (you have probobaly read this one some times) icrease the oar speed, the boat can only move as fast as the oars. 2 make it smother. As you said in the begining this is a roboric movement. This makes for stops in the water that slows you down. (This would most likely be a minimal effect, but you will have a more stable speed and i think it would break 90.)
Even though I don't have trailmakers i love watching your videos as it keeps me entertained and destracted from my studies.
Anyways I just wanted to propose you make an emp video where you race with cars that have detachable wheels and where repairing is allowed only when you cannot move anymore.
You can also use a walker-leg mechanism for rowing, which gives it that circular motion you were after, allowing it to be more compact, and have less conflict between each pair. It also lets you offset the timing more easily. This all comes at the cost of a shorter stroke than an oar on a stick
Scrapman! I'm making actual tank treads in trailmakers. And its going well so wish me luck! Also I love your videos
More oars is just like having more propellers or outboard engines, it won't go faster but it will get up to speed quicker and pull harder.
But it will never go faster than the angle of the propeller or speed of the oars moving.
Planes and boats can use variable pitch to make the propeller angle steeper as the speed of passing air/water increases though
You need longer oars. the input is essentially rotational force. youre being limited by the speed the oar is capable of rowing, not the frequency. Just like a propeller, the base of the propeller is traveling slower than the tip is. Longer oars will mean higher possible speed.
Multiplayer Monday Idea:
SPLEEF BUT YOU CAN GO IN REVERSE (for 5 seconds, maybe?)
Thank you for all the great content!
You should do a battle with this concept!
Next time you should try using power couplings to smooth out the movement, you could also try making the oars longer and also with a longer are that pushes the water as the oar pieces are quite short. But so far you have made some great progress in using the oars as their suppose to!
Id like to suggest about the staggered paddling. Cut the boat in half. Front half oars is same logic. Back half is delayed by half timing. So that 1 set is in water and the other set is up in the air. Its not the orthodox but it should remove the dead space. Just put enough length in the middle so there is no collision between the 2 paddle sections.
Made a trireme inspired version using hinges with manual control. It's downloadable in trailmakers (named Trireme Inspired Rowboat). What I found was that the kinetics of the movement of parts has a way of causing adverse effects to the movement. Whether by creating air resistance with the paddles in the opposite direction or something else... dunno. Feel free to check it out.
Other than increasing the paddle length, I wonder if this would help.
So right now you are going in ''bursts'', but what if you went ''full auto''? Like instead of all the paddles moving through the water at same time, have them alternate.
First set in the water, second set in the air, third in water, fourth in air. As one set gets ready to go up, have the one right behind it go down.
I don't actually know how to boat, it's just an idea.
Woo, finally caught a video at release
Honestly, the main reason why it is so difficult to go fast rowing in trailmakers is because the water is moving faster than the oars are. Acceleration requires a force to occur, but since you are moving forwards at the same rate you move your oar backwards, no force is produced. Additionally, when the boat moves faster than an individual oar, the oar then begins to produce drag
The maximum theoretical speed is the speed at which the oars go through the water. So if you're having that much of deminishing returns the only thing I can imagine would work is making the oars longer, therefore with the same angular velocity you have more oar speed in the water. Since the torque of the servos seem to be insanely high.
video idea: dogfight but in -1 gravity
I'm not sure you can make negative gravity happen.
Well if you can make negative gravity set an altitude sensor hooked upto a explosive with a limiting height something like the top of one of the bridges forcing them to stay amongst the obstacles, hell even with normal gravity that would be fun
Based on what some of the rowing experts in the comments have said about increasing the oar length, I think this one bears revisiting, tbh. We're already at inhuman rowing speed, so let's get some absurdly long oars to make good use of it
Also, I know you fixed it in the end, but judging by how it was dipping lower than all the other oars, that one oar that kept getting stuck probably got tagged with a double logic signal at some point during all of your copying and pasting
The capsizing of his craft was hilarious amazing how many things this game will let you experiment with
You could use a catamaran hull to increase the distance between oars, giving you room to fix the aerodynamic/collision issues, while minimize the water resistance.
I would guess that the timing was probably not quite optimal. You should be able to judge that by looking at _how_ the needle of the speedometer moves. For the first half of the video, you had a short period of deceleration before and after each period of acceleration. That tells me that the paddles were dragging in the water at those times.
I think you want your oars to be down for about a third (maybe a quarter) of the cycle.
From 32:05 onwards, you have a deceleration period right after the acceleration, and then the speed stays constant for a while. I guess that means that the oars get lifted out of the water too late.
And to really fine tune the settings, I would just divide all speeds by 10 and multiply all delays by 10, perfect the settings, and then undo the scaling.
I feel like you could go faster with less oars by staggering them allowing ones to push when your others are done pushing..... I also feel like the oars are slowing you down when they reverse in the air.. maybe rotating them so they are not pushing air backwards..
Adding more oars is just like adding more tractors: It won't go any faster, but it is more powerful. The boat can only move as fast as the linear speed of the oars. To increase the linear speed of the oars you either have to increase the length or the rotational speed.
One thing is that rowing happens around a pivot point, maybe connect the oars on a loose trailer henge and then use a pistons to move the handle side in the motion you want to have a smoother more natural rowing motion with more leverage and possibly more power coming from the pistons rather than the servos, also maybe make the length on them longer so you can have more of the oar in at a less steep angle of attack, the rowing should be more lateral and less vertical in motion
Btw the rowing motion for dragon boats or rowing races is different than that you mimicked instead of a horizontal oar they hold them vertical allowing a possible one servo per side for up a down and another for pulling by making a rake of oars instead of each oar being separately controlled. Would also prevent them from being slightly off which is the number one killer of speed. Spoken from experience here
I just want to know if you can take this idea, simplify the rowing mechanism, and put two rotating servos in-between a pair of collums, then attach the oars to that? You'd need bearings of course don't move more than up, down, forwards, and back in a slight ellipse. Kinda like your scrap mechanic walker.
Maybe you could try with design where paddles aren't moving together but first pair moves normally and second pair moves a bit shifted in phase (180° later in phase) so if one moves downward second will move upward?
Ps. I always have issues with explaining something so someone in comments could translate it a bit more understandable
One of the issue is that the paddle push the boat backward when they get back to the forward positions since the face the wind, maybe rotating them to be parallel to wind should help
Alternate the ores so you always have a power stroke, like the combustion cycle in a car. Try it with each individual set of oars or try it in blocks, when the front half finishes it's stroke, the rear half starts it stroke.
I think a fun idea would be a siege landing competition have a creation that can be set on top of your vehicle that can go through a course then unload your cargo. Some stipulations could be limited power cores or no water motorized propulsion so no outboard engines or underwater propellers it that or the creation would be more modern like a tank but it would have to be super heavy to make it interesting or something like amphibious landing you would have to get on the land for it to be a successful landing then maybe just drive the siege vehicle to a specific location.
Idea: build the most non-aerodynamic creation and see how hard it is to move it
So a cube? 👀 I can't think of less aerodynamic shape
@@nikolaskuklis5925 quantum rudder? Prop going opposite way? helicopter blades acts as a strong airbrakes too
So maybe something like that could work
Main issue is the aerodynamics of the oar blade, it's not so much the water resistance.
Just look at the speedometer on this and another boat with 88 km/h top speed, the very sudden drops as the oars starts traveling forwards.
The drop in forward momentum is extremely increased by the return stroke of the oars in the current configuration.
If Trailmakers have made the oars aerodynamically similar to IRL oars, then flipping the oar blades like any rower would do, it's seriously 101 of rowing.
So the oar blades or the complete oar needs to flip 90° to horizontal, preferably rotating top forwards at the back end of the stroke and returning to the 0° starting point while entering the water again, preferably in a manner that gives forward momentum from the oar blade twist too.
I'd set up a 3 servo solution for each oar, with the final one controlling the attack angle of the oar.
In Scrap Mechanic that would be easily accomplished with the bearings.
Just look up rowing technique and follow the steps there.
Hey Scrapman, just a suggestion, but you should try to make the oars go in a millipede-like motion. I think it would be rlly cool!!
The number of people talking about ore length, this is for sure getting a part 2
The reason It didn't get much faster is because when you row you are pushing the water to the previous paddle therefore pushing the entire build back creating a sort a backwards effect
I think you should try off setting the oars even if you have to spread them out more. Considering the fact that adding more oars while having them run simultaneously isn't improving anything I don't think you would loose speed. If anything it might help keep momentum. Especially if you did a rotation of more than 2, like a 4 oar rotation.
I wonder if there’s a way to do some sort of walking-beam mechanism to get a truly elliptical motion. That would probably make it smoother. Also, I think longer oars would be the only thing that would potentially increase your speed. Also, i wonder if you could design some sort of clutch mechanist to only operate one bank of oars at a time for steering. Would be interesting to see you do a melee battle with triremes with ramming rods.
And maybe stagger the dip timing for the second set (every other) so that the dead time (when no oars are in the water) is reduced. They would probably need more space to avoid collisions.
Might try a 3rd servo that rotates the oar 90° when it is in the air. Maybe flattening it out on the return will reduce the drag
you could remove a bunch of the middle oars and then have a set at the back and a set at the front alternating for more continuous thrust.
I believe putting both pivot points in the same spot is hurting you. If you put a hitch 1/3 of the way up the oar attached to the side of the boat and then a servo just spinning with the end of the or attached to an arm on the servo you would get a full circle motion. you could get crazy with logic and make it a servo circling a servo at the end of the oar to make a long round face down D motion.
Size of the oar only increases the mass of water it pushes against, meaning it only helps with acceleration.
the LENGTH of the oar is what dictates speed. but even if you ad like, ridiculously long oars, there is only so much speed one can achieve when in contact with the water. in water, the more speed one has, the more mass impacts whatever is moving in it. that is why you turn into mush if you jump from a very high place and hit water at very high speeds, since the speed on impact basically makes water solid in that split second upon contact.
The reasons trimarans had multiple deck levels of rovers, was to overcome that surge in on off for the rowing. The higher deck drawers had longer oars, and thus the lower deck did not interfere
A trireme would be awesome. A oar driven pvp ship battle would be pretty fun to watch too.
U can rotate the padels parallel to the water, when it's out of the water on the foreword stroke to mine mise the drag. It's what u wod do IRL.
are you able to put decals on that gold chirpo trophy? Would be cool to have a Greek ore ship with different coloured chirpos looking like they’re the ones rowing.
Break the sound barrier with a boat
Max complexity boat fight would be insane
Hi Scrap, do you think it’s possible to build a Paddle boat ? otherwise I love your concepts
Watch the dragon boat racing. Really popular here in the Philippines. And I love how the drummer is like the brain and paddlers will follow the beat
did you upload this to the workshop i would love to modify and tweek this design and I recon that you could potentially go a lot faster with some overhauling
You might be achieving a max speed because that's how fast your oars are moving, when they move. You're sufficiently close to "optimal" that your adjustments are only trivially affecting drag. In order to go faster, you don't need less drag, or less weight, or better angle, you need to move the oars faster.
Now you need to slap some cannons on and have a multiplayer battle.
Logical next step ^^
You could try using a similar type of flapping mechanism to make some type of wings to flap on some type of air vehicle, honestly not sure how well it would work though.
Idk if anyone wrote this but why not try power coupling as it doesn't have collision so if you time it right and the oars don't hit eachother you get a constant speed and if it works can we break the sound barrier with it
Alternate the oars so that a few are always in the water, that way the boat is always being pushed and could potentially build up more speed.
I feel like if you got rid of every other oar and delay them gradually from front to back that could help
Here's a video idea. A boat battle but only using oars to move.
I think the problem is that you can't go any faster than your oars are moving, so the only thing I can think of to make it faster is stacking the servos to achieve higher speed on your oars
I bet you could build a paddle wheel ship with those blocks, like SS Central America, the Great Eastern, or a riverboat that would make Samuel “Mark Twain” Clemens proud. Paddle wheel battle boats in the future?
"they're no longer colliding" *immediately collides with a wall*
It wants to be a sequenced order of oars like a millipede or a centipede, and, a hydroplane. :D
Hey scrap man👋. I've just had an idea🤔. Maybe you could come up with a cool way to play Frisbee golf in trailmakers.🤷♂️👌👍
If you make them alternating left right left right ,but it's different on every row ,so front to back is on off on off the water u won't jump and the speed will be more consistent.
it makes total sense. the paddles doesnt move faster than around 80-90 kph. therefor no changes you make to aero or anything like that wont make a difference since. the oars cannot push on water that passes the boat faster than 80-90.
Wanna bet if you extrend the lenght of them making them move faster then the boat will move faster aswell but with less torque.
I think the Oars themselves are moving at the maximum speed that you could reach, so if you make them move faster, maybe you can get a higher top speed!
Scarpman you can only goes as fast as you push the water, the first newton law: every action has an equal and oposite reaction. If you have enough padles to overcome all resistence, that is, enough power, you'll only go as fast as the rip of the padles. So to go faster, you either got to extend the length of the padles, or make the servos go faster. Also, you are going way to slow for aerodynamics to matter much.
Needed to inch worm space the rotations. They are all adding the same speed at the same time so they are capped. If you inch worm I recon you could break the sound barrier.
Alternating paddles might fix it. Odds in while evens out. Group 1, then group 2, 1, 2,1,2. It’ll use less paddles and always have a group pushing.
Watching this gave me the idea of how fast can you make a paddle boat go? 🤔😁
Id be interested to seea multiplayer monday video thats a team rowing race. 2v2, each seat in the boat controls one of the two oars (manually) and then you just race
I think you could have seen better results by staggering the delay on the rowing mechanism. It would make them move in a snaking pattern with consistent thrust and evening out the forces from the oars themselves.
I think having alternating oars could be better even if it means it less of them. Also maybe you could put more put two or three oars on single "arm"
Suggestion:how many oars can break the sound barrier
It's not a mass problem. Your only getting one power stroke, you need to slightly alternate the strokes so the power stroke is continuing down the craft like the wings on a ray
2nd video: overpowered sub (high seas map pls)
(edit) scrapman cant make an ore boat can he? -w-, look, you do 2 row speeds, having A and B making it keep more speed, longer ores as its what make ur boat faster to begin with.
like dude, u dont need THAT many ores
2.0, take the similar amount of oars but using a catamaran design to see if your top speed can change. (For I assume water is modelled ok but not to a high enough fidelity)
A video idea for either single or multiplayer: You would build a vehicle that need to do multiple things and compete in them, like highjump, drag races, rally races, boating or flying even? maybe it has to do those things without wheels or gravity increased each round, etc. could be better suited to scrap mechanic
Mark a course with alot of jumps and uneven terrain and have limited repairs....3 rounds at least...with modifications between each to make the most durable vehical that can best handle the course
Ore length, slower back motion and rotation of ore during back motion (not sure if that would help in the game)
You should try to make one suitable for staggering :)