That was very well done with some very knowledgeable and compassionate guests. I used to sit with a guy on my bus ride to work every day who had been excommunicated for "fornication" from the Brethren. I was still a JW at the time. Soon thereafter I got the boot and we had some fun chats comparing our cults!
Just to say, there is a site called Wikipeebia.com which will help those thinking about exiting the Exclusive Brethren. It has a call button on the front page that will take you to a rapid response team that can help in a variety of ways such as with counseling, shelter and employment
Thank you John, Jill & Ian. That is absolutely true that when you are born into such a 'fellowship' after several generations you cannot think objectively so when you finally realize that you have been subjected to an international power struggle fuelled by ambition, religious fervour, popularity, money & don't forget the alcohol, it is earth-shattering. It was one leader, Symington, criticising the Bereans for 'searching the Scriptures to see if these things were so', that first got me doubting - sacred Scripture has lost its authority to mere Man!
Thank you for sharing this; it's so important that these things are brought to the light and talked about publicly and in sensible fashion. I'm another former 'good little sister', who woke up one morning - her sub-conscious having suddenly come to the fore at age 20 - knowing that she had to leave the EB. My heart goes out to all who are trapped in any of these cultish groups, and to all who have been excommunicated from such groups and are left picking up the pieces, trying to work out what the heck their true identity & beliefs might be. It is particularly difficult I think, trying to do this in the absence of one's family. Shunning is the pits - a nasty form of psychological torture, under the pretend guise of 'religious belief'. It's really just about punishment and revenge, with a nasty dose of cowardice and superstition ("my faith in the cult is so feeble that I will be contaminated if I have to do with you, you disagreer!") mixed in.
What wonderful, compassionate people. To make those life choices with numbing obstacles at a time before the internet was incredibly brave. Thank you for sharing your story!
Hey, Lloyd, after a little reseach of the secrecy if this particular sect, they also have issues with child sex abuse. I sense this is a common feature amongst cults that isolate their members.
I came across Exclusive Brethren through reading In the Days of Rain by Rebecca Stott. Its a wonderful memoir. Rebecca herself was only a child when she and her parents left the Brethren but she tells the story beautifully through the lens of her family and does meticulous research. The similarities to JWs are eerie though EB's are way more hardcore. Comparing and contrasting is a great way to enable JWs to reflect on their own faith in a non threatening way. The book is even better in audiobook form as Rebecca reads it & has a great speaking voice. Similarities with JW's include: Being told the end is imminent including having to survive a great tribulation with terrible floods & destruction. The idea of New Light - where changes of doctrine get viewed as the light getting brighter Not socialising with non members - though they are way stricter on this point. Things they can't do are greater but include not celebrating holidays. The Judicial process - having elder type men come to your house to quiz you on even the smallest wrongdoing - seeing if your heart is right and if not they will 'lock you up' restricting all communication, putting you in one room away from anyone and not eating with you. Disfellowshipping is done and this is total and permanent. Many suicides have resulted from this just as in the JW's. The notion that Satan is the ruler of the world and anyone who is not in their religion is being controlled by Satan and is evil. They used to take a strong stance against the internet, linking it to the devil, but recently they have embraced it with posh website. They are anti education. They are very very keen to maintain their tax free status and have rebranded to make themselves more palatable. They also use words like worldly and worldlies, they talk about meetings and the hall. Even the halls look similar to the old fashioned jw halls which are windowless affairs. Back in Russell's time, he used to be called The Faithful and Wise Servant. We have the Governing Body described jointly as the faithful and discreet slave but both are quite reminiscent of the Man of God in EB. Their imminent expectation of the Rapture also reminds me of Russell era belief when JWs dressed in white sheets expecting to be taken into heaven in 1914.
I grew up in the normal Brethren they may mix with others but that’s the only difference at least in the fellowship I was born into. I’m transgender I’ve always felt like a man stuck in a woman’s body and the reinforcement of gender rolls have scared me for life psychiatrically, I can’t wear my hair above a number 3 razor length, wear certain things, or even cook for myself because of this.
The Brethren have just made an appearance in a novel I'm reading so I immediately went on UA-cam for more information. There you were with a great interview and two excellent guests! Obviously I need to go through your back catalogue more diligently though I have been following for a couple of years and do occasionally go right back to forage for apostasy food.
Love these faith vs faith vids. I have a fascination with religion, but especially the fringe ones in particular. I just soak up all the info these interviews give me. Keeo doing what you do!
Me too. I'm a lapsed Catholic - very ordinary compared with a lot of the 'faiths' of these cults. I have no idea where my fascination came from but I watch a lot of these videos. Maybe I'm just grateful I didn't have to go through what Lloyd and so many of his guests went through.
Thanks for doing this, I’m a survivor from the Brethren and am a Transgender man (female to male) although I didn’t grow up in an exclusive Brethren fellowship I grew up in one that had believed pretty much the same things only they mixed with people. The normal Brethren do proselytise and in some ways are a far larger problem than the exclusives.
Fascinating comparisons between the two groups. Thanks Lloyd. I grew up in a part of New Zealand where there were - and still are - a relatively large number of the Exclusive Brethren who are bused in to their concrete clad meeting places in an impressive line up of buses to their weekend meetings. Oh, and they also meet several other times a week. I should imagine that if JWs find their recruiting declines significantly, they may well take the same step as the Exclusive Brethren and shut down the preaching work - perhaps as a hyped up sign of how deep they are in the time of the end.
Brilliant question from Mr. McKay about the similarity of methods used to control people. I have often suspected there are human proclivities at work here that are more instinctual and embedded in the subconsciousness from a time in the very distant past. A predisposition to follow, to ensure safety and security for the group/troop/gang and driven by fear and the need to survive. An excellent question that has pointed to the controlling nature of cults and to the exploitation of the human need for security, and I feel it is possible that this exploitation is often unwitting, driven by the stresses of living in a world perceived to be dangerous, threatening and unpredictable, a psychological coping strategy for stressed-out humans, that's what the nature of religion actually is, it's a reaction to the world and not an answer.
Whats worse.The exploitation driven by the stresses of living in a world perceived to be dangerous, threatening and unpredictable, will also remain wide open for this kind of exploitation as well too,sadly, so long as it also remain fairly obvious as well that generally speaking most people outside of cults, wouldn't see reason to care. Considering that fate of cult life, will mainly only ever become of real concern for those who happen to be personally involved. This feeling of danger, is therefore also based on some level of evidence as well. This fear is not completely unfounded.But what might help to quickly nullify this kind of fear would be if cult members were able to observe more interest and concern being shown from among member of the general public outside of these cults I feel this is the key for speedy levels of reform in regard to these cult abuses. The key in the same ways that speedy reform had finally occurred once more people chose to become more mindfully interested themselves, after exposure of issues surrounding Harvey Weinstein
Great video! One of my favourite subjects! And I absolutely love Jill she’s an amazing person! It’s such a shame that it was hard to hear Ian, as I feel he has a lot of good stuff to say. Hopefully next time you work with him his sound quality will be better. Keep up the good work xx
I enjoyed watching this video very much. Thank you for bringing to light that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only high control organization in the world. They are others as I have always been aware of. However, there are many others that need to know that. We are the ones that need to be on "the watch". This information needs to get out there and thank you for being such a balanced advocate. As always, we appreciate you.
Four families of cousins of ours have left from within the brethren over the last 50 years. Two families were able to all leave together. While two other families had left slowly, either separately one by one or else in dribs an drabs. I doubt it requires any rocket scientist to understand which ones have likely fared far better. The difference that it helped to make, is striking. I'd sure like to see a scientific study done to help gauge the difference The best value of the internet, is the ability it has to help enlighten more people .No doubt that the internet is going to help make things easier. Will sure help to ease the problem. Will certainly even help ease the way for cult members that now still leave these days too Even so there still need to be far more change occurring within minds of loads of other people outside of the cults.Among minds of regular people who are perhaps not even personally effected themselves. Or else it will still need to take many generations to come yet, before these abuses may finally cease to happen. That is so wrong. Is immoral. Nobody should need to be faced with this future outlook What would really help to fast track a answer to this cult issue, would be for more people to learn to become just as outraged about it, like what they were already easily able to become like in regard to outrage of Donald Trumps policy of separating children from parents This is where the internet and the videos like this one here can help make a real big difference . Videos like this one here do a real great job of helping to enlighten people
It's always interesting listening to people's experiences in other High controlling Cults, and of course seeing how they have survived and gone on to live fulfilling life's and helping others with their experiences. I love these conversations :)
I grew up in the Exclusive Brethren and left at age 34. Alone! I have ex-JW friends that I met at an ex-cultist support group. The similarities between these two evil religions are many and uncanny. And they were both founded by Freemasons. Thank you for making this video. I've admired Jill for years.
Thank you for this series. I'm often challenged by Jehovah Witnesses, who think they are so different to any other Christian belief system. The methods of indoctrination and the use of fear, is very common. You had added to my toolbox of knowledge. Thanķ you.
I thought Ian's question was interesting about whether cults copy each others' control tactics or they all naturally find the same tactics. I found it disturbing that Jill suffered psychologically from leaving at 16 even with her parents leaving. But very similar to leaving JWs.
(7th) Thank you Lloyd for another great video. Lloyd your 30k subscriber milestone is fast approaching. If you don't mind, can you tell us what are your plans in commemorating your 30k milestone?
I don't have any specific plans. I was planning on holding out for 50k before doing another "celebration" livestream, but you're not the first to ask this question so I may reconsider if it's what my viewers want. :)
Matilda You know what I live in southeast Manitoba and mennonites are everywhere!(a wave of them left russia and eastern europe to avoud persecution in the early 1900s) Everyone jokes that they are the amish who use technology. Lol. I live in a nearby French Canadian (catholic) town and many of mixed French Canadian Mennonite matches and marriages have come about it, much to the chagrin of mennonite parents.
Matilda From around the Black Sea, namely Odessa Ukraine. A lot are.pretty laid back, particularly the ones who marry ouside the faith. But there is a lot of fundies stilll around.
I grew up in a kind of brethren church. There is a wide variety of brethren churches. There are differences from country to country. Some are very strict. Some are more open. The closed brethren believe that they are the only realy uncontaminated/separated church. The main teaching ist that there has to be a conversion to Jesus. If you are converted/born again you are saved forever (Joh. 10:28). But it is right there are similarities between JWs and closed brethren. Women are often not allowed to pray in the presence of males. I cannot confirm that there are restrictions for higher education. The closed brethren here in Germany have a lot of academic educated members. But in my observation most of them are male.
Brethren churches had a lot of splits. Therefore there are the so called closed brethren (=Plymouth brethren) and for example the so called open brethren (One of the founders was George Müller of Bristol and Henry Craik). Open brethren are not so separated. Most brethren churches do not have pastors. These churches are run by laymen. The church of the Nazarene is not a brethren church. They come out of the methodist church.
No, never have ben one of the JWs. I attend a more liberal independent church with brethren routes. I am a born again evangelical. I don`t like those labels, but this helps me to describe what I believe.
I grew up in a Brethren fellowship in Northern Ireland that was very strict and saw the devil in everything they have a lot of the same beliefs as the exclusive brethren but they believe you must go out amongst people and spread the word of god because the end days are coming soon because things are getting worse and worse etc, or you could literally die at anytime. I hated it and am scared for life. I’m transgender I’ve always felt like a man in a woman’s body and the reinforcement of gender rolls has left me unable to keep my hair longer than number 3 razor, wear certain things, and cook for myself. They would consider me an apostate for being transgender. Then there is another Brethren fellowship 7 miles down the road that’s a lot more liberal, have no trouble with me being transgender, and run a charity to help vulnerable people that I go to a craft group, a gardening group, and a knitting/crochet group (one of the few things typically girly they didn’t ruin for me) at. Things can very greatly even within a small area when it comes to Brethren. Another thing they said that’s different is the exclusives aren’t evangelical where the open brethren is very much so. My grandfather was a Brethren Evangelist and at one point Missionary. In fact my grandfather didn’t work, all he did was evangelical stuff, my grandmother went back to school at 40 years old when they got back from Missionary work in South America to become a nurse, then a district nurse, a midwife and then before she retired she was a health visitor. My grandmother was the breadwinner of the family and I’m proud of my grandmother for that because it wasn’t the done thing back then, she always was a closet feminist behind his back.
Maybe I was not paying close enough attention, but I did not hear anything about the fact the the Plymouth Brethren are split in 2 groups. There is the Exclusive Brethren and the Open Brethren. The Open Brethren are from what I read the much larger group. When it comes to new religious movements, it's important to point out that many are broken up into factions after the founder dies. Usually there is one main big group and dozens of splinter groups. That's the case with both the Bible Student movement (with the JWs being the biggest group) and the LDS movement (with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the biggest group).
Loyld, i'm trying to find in which of your video you refer to a publication of the WatchTower about the origins of Jehovah's name. You said in the video that elders were at one point asked to destroy the book. Could you please help me recover that information?
Thanks for doing this most interesting interview with these 2, this is the first time to hear of this religion. Sure hope she gets to help many who leave.
Regarding the few number of activists with the Exclusive Brethren there are even fewer for Bible Students. I haven’t come across any others who speak out against the Bible Students though there are tens of thousands globally who called themselves Bible Students including the Dawn, Associated, Layman’s Home Missionary and PBI Bible Students. Actually there are many born-ins who have left the religion. I know quite a few including some family members who have been rejected for their sexual orientation. Those who I know have left basically find just thinking about their time in the Bible Students so distasteful , so oppressive, that they avoid talking about them. I find the lack of interest in exposing Bible Student abuses disappointing.
Are EB same or similar to Plymouth Brethren? I read Shut Up Sarah about Plymouth Brethren. It was eye opening and as a JW at the time it started the process that there are other religions that are very similar to JWs - we weren't so different
Plymouth Brethren is a broad term that includes many groups in a state of mutual excommunication, but all derived historically from the same movement by a process of multiple schisms. The Exclusive Brethren (who now call themselves the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church) are only a very small fragment of this Plymouth Brethren movement (perhaps about 4 per cent numerically) but they have come to the public’s attention mainly because of the damage that they do.
It is confusing I know - the Plymouth Brethren is a kind of umbrella term for all the various Brethren groups. Originally they were called that because the largest gathering was in Plymouth. But then there was a big split in the 1840s and the two sub groups were called the Open Brethren and the Closed or Exclusive Brethren. The Open brethren then split again but only once and do not have a central Man of God. The Exclusive Brethren splits several times down the centuries. The group this video is about is the most exclusive of them all currently led by Bruce Hales. They used to refuse a name at all but when they decided to have a website eventually they called themselves the Exclusive Brethren. However, in 2012 the Charity Commission UK initially refused them charitable status on a new trust they had set up. A few months later the Exclusive Brethren rebranded themselves as the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church .... which has confused everyone!! This very exclusive branch are the ones whose women used to wear scarfs over long hair, now they tend to wear bows in their hair of even fascinators. Men do not wear ties. Hope this helps! Jill
I used to frequently see Brethren when I lived in the north of my town as there was a church in nearby Houghton Regis, Beds., not sure if it's still there. They seemed to me to be people who just wanted to keep themselves to themselves, more insular than jw's i thought. Thank you for explaining Jill.
Olga Bailer Yes i'd say that is true, but based on that Stott book i read, they're level of control in EB is of a higher order. They can only use computers which have been modified so that they can't see anything apostate. So no youtube i'm guessing. The children must live in the family home until married. Their level of separation from worldly people is much higher - must go to many many more meetings, are often homeschooled, employment is often with other EB members, mortgages gotten from EB members etc so its like they are in a bubble. I'd say young witnesses have far more opportunity to learn the TTATT & its not as intense as that. Young people are the lifeblood of any religion and young JW's they are leaving in massive numbers so while the JWs aren't going to dramatically lose membership, the lack of young will kick away the chances of more growth and the old will die.
very interesting - Exclusive Bretheren & Jehovah's Witnesses have such similar beginnings & doctrines yet EBs number 50 thousand while JWs 9000 thousand - do you think this difference is due to the proselytizing work?
Olga Bailer I would say so yes. The EB are are closed group unlike the open Brethren so having children is the only way to maintain their numbers. The term Exclusive denotes how special they believe they are - they view themselves as a higher class - more holy than open Brethren because they do not tarnish themselves by being in the company of non EB people. The Plymouth Brethren have split so many times into different factions - if you added them all up into one group there would be a more sizable number. Exclusive Brethren are just one small hard core faction and seem to like it that way.
so many factions! - maybe the difference in numbers comes from the strong centralized governance model in JWs, it seems to be lacking in the Brethren factions - the proselytizing work of JWs dose not seem to be a great source of new members - but they do have a unrelenting governing body
At around 5 min mark Jill discusses being slightly over 16 and leaving the brethren in company of both of her parents.Then at the end of the video later on Jill discusses being alone when she had left.Alone because at that time she left there was no internet as yet.But the internet is never likely to become a replacement of someones own parents or family.Many human are very kind, even so this human kindness is still yet to become something sound enough for these cult members to feel like perhaps its become reliable enough for them to feel able to bank on. Leaving the cults is never going to become any decent answer to this ongoing cult problem.Change is almost unlikely to occur from within cults fast enough for many whom still remain trapped within.All human life is limited by age.Therefore perhaps far more change may need to be expected to soon occur more quickly from outside of these cults.People dealing with the fate of being born into these places of abuse,surely should not still be so unloved within our society, so as to also need to be facing these kind of battles in 2018 These cults are sick.No question.Yet ultimately its still the sickness of society outside those cult generally what allow it to happen.
At the time of leaving my parents chose not to tell us their children what was going on - they acknowledged later that was an error. There was therefore no one to talk to about how I felt and whilst I agree the internet is not a replacement it sure would have helped to know that I was not going mad and that there were others out there struggling too. As to family - my oldest brother stayed in the group as did almost my mother's entire family and my father's entire family. So it was really just my parents - no other family. In those days too no one knew about these strange groups called cults so there was no understanding. Sadly former cultic group members are still often misunderstood which is I think why they tend to drift towards each other because with others going through the same experience there is some safety. Many of us have PTSD which is also largely unrecognised. I agree that the sickness in society outside these groups still allows it to happen. We nearly persuaded the Charity Commission not to grant the Brethren charitable status on a new trust they were creating. Those of you in the UK (don't know about other countries) your tax is going to fund these groups.
Jill thanks for explaining.I just wasn't quite sure whether you left alone or left with your parents.From what i can tell it seems that people who are able to leave together with parents are able to fare better.Although a number are then crediting their faith belief as reason behind why they fared better.I'd be interested to see study done to gauge the difference.The people who believe its their faith that had helped them,often also seem to enjoy pointing this out even if this conclusion is unfounded.They have reason to prefer this as the answer.That's why it would be helpful to have a proper study done.Some are busily making demand that other ex eb would become more active,but i never see them acknowledge that there may be other reason that they don't understand themselves as yet behind why some other ex members are not doing more The charity commission is toothless. Whenever they try to take action they are quickly bombarded by christian of other groups who promptly make demand that the action would cease.Who claim persecution.Meanwhile also there are few christian groups who offer the commission their support.This is the one sided example that is presented to society.Society is led by example.Society is led by example whether its about tackling issues surrounding sexism,racism or sex abuse and more. But religion seems to remain as hallowed position where society still fears to tread Part of reason why christian are not offering to provide support of the commission is based on the fear of entering a slippery slope. As if there isn't already a slippery slope.The slippery slope between highly abusive faith and benign faith. The slope which certain people are born into via birthright They ought to be ashamed. Ashamed that this is still allowed to occur in year 2018
One obvious thing about leaving with parents is the bonus that children will then have grandparents from both sides of the family.This i' suspect then also helps aid these children to be able to create a far stronger bond with their own parent as well too.Because for one thing the child's parent wont need to remain so perfect all of the time,as the grand parent can also help and are able to help make up for any distasteful aspect of the childs parent. I'm not a scientist myself.I'm a nobody.I can only suspect that science may yet find out so much more,about the high importance of the family nucleus. Perhaps its too shameful topic to even dare to do these kind of study.Not hard to imagine the outrage that might surface
I have carried out a quantitative study that answers some important questions On hearing of it the Brethren began to send me threatening lawyers letters and the university who were hosting it closed the research down. I still have the data and maybe I should present this on a youtube video. The obvious things I expected did not occur! The fact I remember clearly is that those who still have a strong christain faith were faring no better than the non believers.
Closed it down?. That's so wrong.Jill no way should the university need to bow under pressure like that. Do university run through profit made through students fee's ?. Or do the governments also perhaps help to subsidize university?. Just show the power that certain groups wield.That they are able to stifle information .Again ,where is the outrage in regard to these things what occur ?. Imagine the outrage that would soon burst out across the world, if this study was to do with Donald Trumps act of dividing children from parent. The slightest tip off that the university study had been shut down, would soon cause complete outrage worldwide Just be careful with what you attempt to do Jill. Rather you were careful in your progress, than to see you silenced.
Have the brethren in my town in southwestern Ontario. They have two building that are fenced and the windows covered in boards. They don't interact with anyone outside the church other to work and to tell women they should not be working and they dress wrong.
I'm sorry if you have trouble hearing Ian. I asked him to move his mic closer to his mouth for the third question and found an improvement doing that, but for such an important interview I could have made more of an effort. I'm sorry for dropping the ball on this one.
Lloyd if you could do a video with: Ex Christian scientist Moonies Chrstadelphians Open brethren FLDS - or other Mormon groups West borough baptist church Seventh day adventists The family international - The children of God. Thanks Lloyd I love listening to your videos they are the best!
The Exclusive Brethren were a groups who broke away from the original Brethren movement they should not be called Plymouth Brethren as their doctrine has changed .They followed the teaching of men like Taylor ,putting their teaching before the Bible .This means they follow the teaching of the leader and cannot think for themselves this is the mark of a cult . The original Brethren believed in the doctrine of the early church before Rome tried to control it .They are still larger than the Excusives,and similar to the the traditional Baptists in doctrine, They vary in organization as their churches were run by unpaid elders and deacons.They had some open meetings such as the breaking of bread when any man could stand up and pray or give out a hymn . Other meetings would be organized by the elders and have invited speakers, or be taken by anyone capable .in the local church. They spread throughout the world because of their strong mission emphasis ,to take the gospel to the world. A missionary from my church started and with local help built 4 churches in the West Indies . Their founders were Groves 1795,Darby 1800 , Chapman ,Craik and Muller who built the five orphanages in Bristol (seeUA-cam videos ) Their meeting halls were usually called Gospel Halls ,Chapels or Evangelical Churches.and could be found in most towns and villages in G.B. in the last century .Now with people moving more, many village chapels have closed ,and some members have joined Baptists or other evangelical churches .The Exclusives separated in 184 in some cases their doctrine changed to teaching infant baptism ,and taking separation from sin, the world and apostasy to an extreme.,not realising teaching infant baptism instead of the gospel made them the apostates.
That was very well done with some very knowledgeable and compassionate guests. I used to sit with a guy on my bus ride to work every day who had been excommunicated for "fornication" from the Brethren. I was still a JW at the time. Soon thereafter I got the boot and we had some fun chats comparing our cults!
Jehovah’s Witnesses are Hell bound while Exclusive Brethren are Biblical. Major difference.
Just to say, there is a site called Wikipeebia.com which will help those thinking about exiting the Exclusive Brethren. It has a call button on the front page that will take you to a rapid response team that can help in a variety of ways such as with counseling, shelter and employment
Thank you John, Jill & Ian. That is absolutely true that when you are born into such a 'fellowship' after several generations you cannot think objectively so when you finally realize that you have been subjected to an international power struggle fuelled by ambition, religious fervour, popularity, money & don't forget the alcohol, it is earth-shattering. It was one leader, Symington, criticising the Bereans for 'searching the Scriptures to see if these things were so', that first got me doubting - sacred Scripture has lost its authority to mere Man!
Thank you for sharing this; it's so important that these things are brought to the light and talked about publicly and in sensible fashion. I'm another former 'good little sister', who woke up one morning - her sub-conscious having suddenly come to the fore at age 20 - knowing that she had to leave the EB. My heart goes out to all who are trapped in any of these cultish groups, and to all who have been excommunicated from such groups and are left picking up the pieces, trying to work out what the heck their true identity & beliefs might be. It is particularly difficult I think, trying to do this in the absence of one's family. Shunning is the pits - a nasty form of psychological torture, under the pretend guise of 'religious belief'. It's really just about punishment and revenge, with a nasty dose of cowardice and superstition ("my faith in the cult is so feeble that I will be contaminated if I have to do with you, you disagreer!") mixed in.
What wonderful, compassionate people. To make those life choices with numbing obstacles at a time before the internet was incredibly brave. Thank you for sharing your story!
Thank you for your kind comment!
Hey, Lloyd, after a little reseach of the secrecy if this particular sect, they also have issues with child sex abuse. I sense this is a common feature amongst cults that isolate their members.
Sadly this it true
I came across Exclusive Brethren through reading In the Days of Rain by Rebecca Stott. Its a wonderful memoir. Rebecca herself was only a child when she and her parents left the Brethren but she tells the story beautifully through the lens of her family and does meticulous research. The similarities to JWs are eerie though EB's are way more hardcore. Comparing and contrasting is a great way to enable JWs to reflect on their own faith in a non threatening way. The book is even better in audiobook form as Rebecca reads it & has a great speaking voice. Similarities with JW's include:
Being told the end is imminent including having to survive a great tribulation with terrible floods & destruction.
The idea of New Light - where changes of doctrine get viewed as the light getting brighter
Not socialising with non members - though they are way stricter on this point.
Things they can't do are greater but include not celebrating holidays.
The Judicial process - having elder type men come to your house to quiz you on even the smallest wrongdoing - seeing if your heart is right and if not they will 'lock you up' restricting all communication, putting you in one room away from anyone and not eating with you.
Disfellowshipping is done and this is total and permanent. Many suicides have resulted from this just as in the JW's.
The notion that Satan is the ruler of the world and anyone who is not in their religion is being controlled by Satan and is evil.
They used to take a strong stance against the internet, linking it to the devil, but recently they have embraced it with posh website.
They are anti education.
They are very very keen to maintain their tax free status and have rebranded to make themselves more palatable.
They also use words like worldly and worldlies, they talk about meetings and the hall. Even the halls look similar to the old fashioned jw halls which are windowless affairs.
Back in Russell's time, he used to be called The Faithful and Wise Servant. We have the Governing Body described jointly as the faithful and discreet slave but both are quite reminiscent of the Man of God in EB.
Their imminent expectation of the Rapture also reminds me of Russell era belief when JWs dressed in white sheets expecting to be taken into heaven in 1914.
I grew up in the normal Brethren they may mix with others but that’s the only difference at least in the fellowship I was born into. I’m transgender I’ve always felt like a man stuck in a woman’s body and the reinforcement of gender rolls have scared me for life psychiatrically, I can’t wear my hair above a number 3 razor length, wear certain things, or even cook for myself because of this.
The Brethren have just made an appearance in a novel I'm reading so I immediately went on UA-cam for more information. There you were with a great interview and two excellent guests! Obviously I need to go through your back catalogue more diligently though I have been following for a couple of years and do occasionally go right back to forage for apostasy food.
Love these faith vs faith vids. I have a fascination with religion, but especially the fringe ones in particular. I just soak up all the info these interviews give me. Keeo doing what you do!
Me too. I'm a lapsed Catholic - very ordinary compared with a lot of the 'faiths' of these cults. I have no idea where my fascination came from but I watch a lot of these videos. Maybe I'm just grateful I didn't have to go through what Lloyd and so many of his guests went through.
Thanks for doing this, I’m a survivor from the Brethren and am a Transgender man (female to male) although I didn’t grow up in an exclusive Brethren fellowship I grew up in one that had believed pretty much the same things only they mixed with people. The normal Brethren do proselytise and in some ways are a far larger problem than the exclusives.
Thank you for sharing your stories about the Exclusive Brethren. So much I didn’t know about them prior to this.
Fascinating comparisons between the two groups. Thanks Lloyd. I grew up in a part of New Zealand where there were - and still are - a relatively large number of the Exclusive Brethren who are bused in to their concrete clad meeting places in an impressive line up of buses to their weekend meetings. Oh, and they also meet several other times a week.
I should imagine that if JWs find their recruiting declines significantly, they may well take the same step as the Exclusive Brethren and shut down the preaching work - perhaps as a hyped up sign of how deep they are in the time of the end.
Brilliant question from Mr. McKay about the similarity of methods used to control people. I have often suspected there are human proclivities at work here that are more instinctual and embedded in the subconsciousness from a time in the very distant past. A predisposition to follow, to ensure safety and security for the group/troop/gang and driven by fear and the need to survive. An excellent question that has pointed to the controlling nature of cults and to the exploitation of the human need for security, and I feel it is possible that this exploitation is often unwitting, driven by the stresses of living in a world perceived to be dangerous, threatening and unpredictable, a psychological coping strategy for stressed-out humans, that's what the nature of religion actually is, it's a reaction to the world and not an answer.
Whats worse.The exploitation driven by the stresses of living in a world perceived to be dangerous, threatening and unpredictable, will also remain wide open for this kind of exploitation as well too,sadly, so long as it also remain fairly obvious as well that generally speaking most people outside of cults, wouldn't see reason to care. Considering that fate of cult life, will mainly only ever become of real concern for those who happen to be personally involved.
This feeling of danger, is therefore also based on some level of evidence as well. This fear is not completely unfounded.But what might help to quickly nullify this kind of fear would be if cult members were able to observe more interest and concern being shown from among member of the general public outside of these cults
I feel this is the key for speedy levels of reform in regard to these cult abuses. The key in the same ways that speedy reform had finally occurred once more people chose to become more mindfully interested themselves, after exposure of issues surrounding Harvey Weinstein
Philip Gahan. Great points.
Great video! One of my favourite subjects! And I absolutely love Jill she’s an amazing person! It’s such a shame that it was hard to hear Ian, as I feel he has a lot of good stuff to say. Hopefully next time you work with him his sound quality will be better. Keep up the good work xx
I enjoyed watching this video very much. Thank you for bringing to light that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only high control organization in the world. They are others as I have always been aware of. However, there are many others that need to know that. We are the ones that need to be on "the watch". This information needs to get out there and thank you for being such a balanced advocate. As always, we appreciate you.
Four families of cousins of ours have left from within the brethren over the last 50 years. Two families were able to all leave together. While two other families had left slowly, either separately one by one or else in dribs an drabs. I doubt it requires any rocket scientist to understand which ones have likely fared far better. The difference that it helped to make, is striking. I'd sure like to see a scientific study done to help gauge the difference
The best value of the internet, is the ability it has to help enlighten more people .No doubt that the internet is going to help make things easier. Will sure help to ease the problem. Will certainly even help ease the way for cult members that now still leave these days too
Even so there still need to be far more change occurring within minds of loads of other people outside of the cults.Among minds of regular people who are perhaps not even personally effected themselves. Or else it will still need to take many generations to come yet, before these abuses may finally cease to happen. That is so wrong. Is immoral. Nobody should need to be faced with this future outlook
What would really help to fast track a answer to this cult issue, would be for more people to learn to become just as outraged about it, like what they were already easily able to become like in regard to outrage of Donald Trumps policy of separating children from parents
This is where the internet and the videos like this one here can help make a real big difference . Videos like this one here do a real great job of helping to enlighten people
It's always interesting listening to people's experiences in other High controlling Cults, and of course seeing how they have survived and gone on to live fulfilling life's and helping others with their experiences. I love these conversations :)
Great interview, thanks for all your insightful thoughts. Also, let’s buy a new microphone for Ian! 😊
I just kept tweaking the volume on my computer so I wouldn't miss anything.
Always enjoy your content. Great work my man. Keeping us informed 👍🏼
I grew up in the Exclusive Brethren and left at age 34. Alone! I have ex-JW friends that I met at an ex-cultist support group. The similarities between these two evil religions are many and uncanny. And they were both founded by Freemasons. Thank you for making this video. I've admired Jill for years.
I'm with Dr. Mytton; I experienced nothing good being raised JW that I couldn't / wouldn't have gotten elsewhere and not at such a cost.
Thank you for this series. I'm often challenged by Jehovah Witnesses, who think they are so different to any other Christian belief system.
The methods of indoctrination and the use of fear, is very common.
You had added to my toolbox of knowledge. Thanķ you.
I thought Ian's question was interesting about whether cults copy each others' control tactics or they all naturally find the same tactics. I found it disturbing that Jill suffered psychologically from leaving at 16 even with her parents leaving. But very similar to leaving JWs.
I have never heard of this group before...
(7th) Thank you Lloyd for another great video. Lloyd your 30k subscriber milestone is fast approaching. If you don't mind, can you tell us what are your plans in commemorating your 30k milestone?
I don't have any specific plans. I was planning on holding out for 50k before doing another "celebration" livestream, but you're not the first to ask this question so I may reconsider if it's what my viewers want. :)
Lloyd, I know it seems unlikely, but it would be really cool if you had ex amish on the show?
Erato, what about ex Mennonite ?
Matilda You know what I live in southeast Manitoba and mennonites are everywhere!(a wave of them left russia and eastern europe to avoud persecution in the early 1900s) Everyone jokes that they are the amish who use technology. Lol. I live in a nearby French Canadian (catholic) town and many of mixed French Canadian Mennonite matches and marriages have come about it, much to the chagrin of mennonite parents.
Wow! Really! I didn't know that. What part of eastern europe ? Do they integrate into society ?
Matilda From around the Black Sea, namely Odessa Ukraine. A lot are.pretty laid back, particularly the ones who marry ouside the faith. But there is a lot of fundies stilll around.
ok, interesting. I feel so sorry for the poor kids that grow up in these cults.
Soooo Very familiar! Thank you all!
I missed Faith VS Faith. Thanks Lloyd!
OMG!!!! I was just thinking the same thing since I have been listening to “Cults” on podcast. I was like 🤔JW and the “Garbage eaters”.
I grew up in a kind of brethren church. There is a wide variety of brethren churches. There are differences from country to country. Some are very strict. Some are more open. The closed brethren believe that they are the only realy uncontaminated/separated church. The main teaching ist that there has to be a conversion to Jesus. If you are converted/born again you are saved forever (Joh. 10:28).
But it is right there are similarities between JWs and closed brethren. Women are often not allowed to pray in the presence of males.
I cannot confirm that there are restrictions for higher education. The closed brethren here in Germany have a lot of academic educated members. But in my observation most of them are male.
Jeremy, what do you mean kind of brethren ?? The Nazarene are kind of brethren.
Brethren churches had a lot of splits. Therefore there are the so called closed brethren (=Plymouth brethren) and for example the so called open brethren (One of the founders was George Müller of Bristol and Henry Craik). Open brethren are not so separated. Most brethren churches do not have pastors. These churches are run by laymen.
The church of the Nazarene is not a brethren church. They come out of the methodist church.
You went from Brethren to JW ? From the fry pan into the fire ?? ...... you not the only one
No, never have ben one of the JWs. I attend a more liberal independent church with brethren routes. I am a born again evangelical. I don`t like those labels, but this helps me to describe what I believe.
I grew up in a Brethren fellowship in Northern Ireland that was very strict and saw the devil in everything they have a lot of the same beliefs as the exclusive brethren but they believe you must go out amongst people and spread the word of god because the end days are coming soon because things are getting worse and worse etc, or you could literally die at anytime. I hated it and am scared for life. I’m transgender I’ve always felt like a man in a woman’s body and the reinforcement of gender rolls has left me unable to keep my hair longer than number 3 razor, wear certain things, and cook for myself. They would consider me an apostate for being transgender.
Then there is another Brethren fellowship 7 miles down the road that’s a lot more liberal, have no trouble with me being transgender, and run a charity to help vulnerable people that I go to a craft group, a gardening group, and a knitting/crochet group (one of the few things typically girly they didn’t ruin for me) at. Things can very greatly even within a small area when it comes to Brethren.
Another thing they said that’s different is the exclusives aren’t evangelical where the open brethren is very much so. My grandfather was a Brethren Evangelist and at one point Missionary. In fact my grandfather didn’t work, all he did was evangelical stuff, my grandmother went back to school at 40 years old when they got back from Missionary work in South America to become a nurse, then a district nurse, a midwife and then before she retired she was a health visitor. My grandmother was the breadwinner of the family and I’m proud of my grandmother for that because it wasn’t the done thing back then, she always was a closet feminist behind his back.
Another fascinating interview.
Maybe I was not paying close enough attention, but I did not hear anything about the fact the the Plymouth Brethren are split in 2 groups. There is the Exclusive Brethren and the Open Brethren. The Open Brethren are from what I read the much larger group. When it comes to new religious movements, it's important to point out that many are broken up into factions after the founder dies. Usually there is one main big group and dozens of splinter groups. That's the case with both the Bible Student movement (with the JWs being the biggest group) and the LDS movement (with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the biggest group).
The volume level on Mr McKay's end is much lower than those on the other mics. A sound edit might be advisable.
Loyld, i'm trying to find in which of your video you refer to a publication of the WatchTower about the origins of Jehovah's name. You said in the video that elders were at one point asked to destroy the book. Could you please help me recover that information?
Thanks for doing this most interesting interview with these 2, this is the first time to hear of this religion. Sure hope she gets to help many who leave.
Regarding the few number of activists with the Exclusive Brethren there are even fewer for Bible Students. I haven’t come across any others who speak out against the Bible Students though there are tens of thousands globally who called themselves Bible Students including the Dawn, Associated, Layman’s Home Missionary and PBI Bible Students. Actually there are many born-ins who have left the religion. I know quite a few including some family members who have been rejected for their sexual orientation. Those who I know have left basically find just thinking about their time in the Bible Students so distasteful , so oppressive, that they avoid talking about them. I find the lack of interest in exposing Bible Student abuses disappointing.
Are EB same or similar to Plymouth Brethren? I read Shut Up Sarah about Plymouth Brethren. It was eye opening and as a JW at the time it started the process that there are other religions that are very similar to JWs - we weren't so different
Plymouth Brethren is a broad term that includes many groups in a state of mutual excommunication, but all derived historically from the same movement by a process of multiple schisms. The Exclusive Brethren (who now call themselves the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church) are only a very small fragment of this Plymouth Brethren movement (perhaps about 4 per cent numerically) but they have come to the public’s attention mainly because of the damage that they do.
See my comment above. Shut up Sarah was written by a former member of this brethren group
OH, the 7th Day Adventists taught that 666 was on barcodes as well.
Beej Price are they the ones who refuse all medical help as well?
Mr McKays sound wasn't good to start and didn't catch the history. Is this group anything to do with Plymouth Brethren?
It is confusing I know - the Plymouth Brethren is a kind of umbrella term for all the various Brethren groups. Originally they were called that because the largest gathering was in Plymouth. But then there was a big split in the 1840s and the two sub groups were called the Open Brethren and the Closed or Exclusive Brethren. The Open brethren then split again but only once and do not have a central Man of God. The Exclusive Brethren splits several times down the centuries. The group this video is about is the most exclusive of them all currently led by Bruce Hales. They used to refuse a name at all but when they decided to have a website eventually they called themselves the Exclusive Brethren. However, in 2012 the Charity Commission UK initially refused them charitable status on a new trust they had set up. A few months later the Exclusive Brethren rebranded themselves as the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church .... which has confused everyone!! This very exclusive branch are the ones whose women used to wear scarfs over long hair, now they tend to wear bows in their hair of even fascinators. Men do not wear ties. Hope this helps! Jill
I used to frequently see Brethren when I lived in the north of my town as there was a church in nearby Houghton Regis, Beds., not sure if it's still there. They seemed to me to be people who just wanted to keep themselves to themselves, more insular than jw's i thought. Thank you for explaining Jill.
Did you have that intro on your other Faith vs. Faith videos? I dig it.
Thanks! It was on my Scientology episode too. :)
Watch the movie Son of Rambow. Its about growing up Brethren in the 1980s.
Brethren (exclusive and non exclusive) 101: All new things is a sign of the devil.
this is bad news - so a high control group can maintain their numbers for decades with NO proselytizing work
Olga Bailer Yes i'd say that is true, but based on that Stott book i read, they're level of control in EB is of a higher order. They can only use computers which have been modified so that they can't see anything apostate. So no youtube i'm guessing. The children must live in the family home until married. Their level of separation from worldly people is much higher - must go to many many more meetings, are often homeschooled, employment is often with other EB members, mortgages gotten from EB members etc so its like they are in a bubble. I'd say young witnesses have far more opportunity to learn the TTATT & its not as intense as that. Young people are the lifeblood of any religion and young JW's they are leaving in massive numbers so while the JWs aren't going to dramatically lose membership, the lack of young will kick away the chances of more growth and the old will die.
very interesting - Exclusive Bretheren & Jehovah's Witnesses have such similar beginnings & doctrines yet EBs number 50 thousand while JWs 9000 thousand - do you think this difference is due to the proselytizing work?
Olga Bailer I would say so yes. The EB are are closed group unlike the open Brethren so having children is the only way to maintain their numbers. The term Exclusive denotes how special they believe they are - they view themselves as a higher class - more holy than open Brethren because they do not tarnish themselves by being in the company of non EB people. The Plymouth Brethren have split so many times into different factions - if you added them all up into one group there would be a more sizable number. Exclusive Brethren are just one small hard core faction and seem to like it that way.
so many factions! - maybe the difference in numbers comes from the strong centralized governance model in JWs, it seems to be lacking in the Brethren factions - the proselytizing work of JWs dose not seem to be a great source of new members - but they do have a unrelenting governing body
Olga Bailer They breed their members...
At around 5 min mark Jill discusses being slightly over 16 and leaving the brethren in company of both of her parents.Then at the end of the video later on Jill discusses being alone when she had left.Alone because at that time she left there was no internet as yet.But the internet is never likely to become a replacement of someones own parents or family.Many human are very kind, even so this human kindness is still yet to become something sound enough for these cult members to feel like perhaps its become reliable enough for them to feel able to bank on.
Leaving the cults is never going to become any decent answer to this ongoing cult problem.Change is almost unlikely to occur from within cults fast enough for many whom still remain trapped within.All human life is limited by age.Therefore perhaps far more change may need to be expected to soon occur more quickly from outside of these cults.People dealing with the fate of being born into these places of abuse,surely should not still be so unloved within our society, so as to also need to be facing these kind of battles in 2018
These cults are sick.No question.Yet ultimately its still the sickness of society outside those cult generally what allow it to happen.
At the time of leaving my parents chose not to tell us their children what was going on - they acknowledged later that was an error. There was therefore no one to talk to about how I felt and whilst I agree the internet is not a replacement it sure would have helped to know that I was not going mad and that there were others out there struggling too. As to family - my oldest brother stayed in the group as did almost my mother's entire family and my father's entire family. So it was really just my parents - no other family. In those days too no one knew about these strange groups called cults so there was no understanding. Sadly former cultic group members are still often misunderstood which is I think why they tend to drift towards each other because with others going through the same experience there is some safety. Many of us have PTSD which is also largely unrecognised.
I agree that the sickness in society outside these groups still allows it to happen. We nearly persuaded the Charity Commission not to grant the Brethren charitable status on a new trust they were creating. Those of you in the UK (don't know about other countries) your tax is going to fund these groups.
Jill thanks for explaining.I just wasn't quite sure whether you left alone or left with your parents.From what i can tell it seems that people who are able to leave together with parents are able to fare better.Although a number are then crediting their faith belief as reason behind why they fared better.I'd be interested to see study done to gauge the difference.The people who believe its their faith that had helped them,often also seem to enjoy pointing this out even if this conclusion is unfounded.They have reason to prefer this as the answer.That's why it would be helpful to have a proper study done.Some are busily making demand that other ex eb would become more active,but i never see them acknowledge that there may be other reason that they don't understand themselves as yet behind why some other ex members are not doing more
The charity commission is toothless. Whenever they try to take action they are quickly bombarded by christian of other groups who promptly make demand that the action would cease.Who claim persecution.Meanwhile also there are few christian groups who offer the commission their support.This is the one sided example that is presented to society.Society is led by example.Society is led by example whether its about tackling issues surrounding sexism,racism or sex abuse and more. But religion seems to remain as hallowed position where society still fears to tread
Part of reason why christian are not offering to provide support of the commission is based on the fear of entering a slippery slope. As if there isn't already a slippery slope.The slippery slope between highly abusive faith and benign faith. The slope which certain people are born into via birthright
They ought to be ashamed. Ashamed that this is still allowed to occur in year 2018
One obvious thing about leaving with parents is the bonus that children will then have grandparents from both sides of the family.This i' suspect then also helps aid these children to be able to create a far stronger bond with their own parent as well too.Because for one thing the child's parent wont need to remain so perfect all of the time,as the grand parent can also help and are able to help make up for any distasteful aspect of the childs parent.
I'm not a scientist myself.I'm a nobody.I can only suspect that science may yet find out so much more,about the high importance of the family nucleus.
Perhaps its too shameful topic to even dare to do these kind of study.Not hard to imagine the outrage that might surface
I have carried out a quantitative study that answers some important questions On hearing of it the Brethren began to send me threatening lawyers letters and the university who were hosting it closed the research down. I still have the data and maybe I should present this on a youtube video. The obvious things I expected did not occur! The fact I remember clearly is that those who still have a strong christain faith were faring no better than the non believers.
Closed it down?. That's so wrong.Jill no way should the university need to bow under pressure like that. Do university run through profit made through students fee's ?. Or do the governments also perhaps help to subsidize university?.
Just show the power that certain groups wield.That they are able to stifle information .Again ,where is the outrage in regard to these things what occur ?. Imagine the outrage that would soon burst out across the world, if this study was to do with Donald Trumps act of dividing children from parent. The slightest tip off that the university study had been shut down, would soon cause complete outrage worldwide
Just be careful with what you attempt to do Jill. Rather you were careful in your progress, than to see you silenced.
When they protect a murderer from killing his wife and children
You seriously think they protect children?
Have the brethren in my town in southwestern Ontario. They have two building that are fenced and the windows covered in boards. They don't interact with anyone outside the church other to work and to tell women they should not be working and they dress wrong.
For older people.. can you get your audio right so we can hear the other person.
I'm sorry if you have trouble hearing Ian. I asked him to move his mic closer to his mouth for the third question and found an improvement doing that, but for such an important interview I could have made more of an effort. I'm sorry for dropping the ball on this one.
Do we need subtitles for Ian McKay ?
U.S.A. 3:00 AM. First 🌺💕
You should do Orthodox Jews next
They're definitely on the list!
I love you too bro!
And you're welcome x
Lloyd if you could do a video with:
Ex
Christian scientist
Moonies
Chrstadelphians
Open brethren
FLDS - or other Mormon groups
West borough baptist church
Seventh day adventists
The family international - The children of God.
Thanks Lloyd I love listening to your videos they are the best!
3rd U.S.A 1:00 AM
4th USA 4 30 am
Faith off!
The Exclusive Brethren were a groups who broke away from the original Brethren movement they should not be called Plymouth Brethren as their doctrine has changed .They followed the teaching of men like Taylor ,putting their teaching before the Bible .This means they follow the teaching of the leader and cannot think for themselves this is the mark of a cult . The original Brethren believed in the doctrine of the early church before Rome tried to control it .They are still larger than the Excusives,and similar to the the traditional Baptists in doctrine, They vary in organization as their churches were run by unpaid elders and deacons.They had some open meetings such as the breaking of bread when any man could stand up and pray or give out a hymn . Other meetings would be organized by the elders and have invited speakers, or be taken by anyone capable .in the local church. They spread throughout the world because of their strong mission emphasis ,to take the gospel to the world. A missionary from my church started and with local help built 4 churches in the West Indies . Their founders were Groves 1795,Darby 1800 , Chapman ,Craik and Muller who built the five orphanages in Bristol (seeUA-cam videos ) Their meeting halls were usually called Gospel Halls ,Chapels or Evangelical Churches.and could be found in most towns and villages in G.B. in the last century .Now with people moving more, many village chapels have closed ,and some members have joined Baptists or other evangelical churches .The Exclusives separated in 184 in some cases their doctrine changed to teaching infant baptism ,and taking separation from sin, the world and apostasy to an extreme.,not realising teaching infant baptism instead of the gospel made them the apostates.