Hindu Dialogues- Challenging popular concept of Varna System |
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- Hindu Dialogues - Challenging popular concept of Varna System Anand Prasad, Pankaj Saxena and Rahul Dewan
A very interesting conversation between Rahul Dewan, Anand Prasad and Pankaj Saxena that gives a deep insight into the Varna system. The two aspects, the actual meaning and purpose of Varna system that guided the ancient society and the modern popular understanding of it, are discussed to come to a better understanding of Varna system.
About the Speakers:
1. Anand Prasad is a corporate lawyer, based in Delhi, with more than 27 years of experience representing both domestic and international clients on a variety of legal and commercial issues within and outside India. Anand has a keen interest and spends considerable time studying ancient Indian history, including in a religo/spiritual context.
2. Pankaj Saxena is a Teacher, an Author, writes on History, Culture, Hindu Architecture, Arts and Literature. He is Chief Editor, Indic Varta, Centre for Indic Studies. He has traveled widely and documented more than 400 ancient Hindu temples.
Subtopics:
0:00 Power Statement
0:28 Introduction
1:37 Defensive about Caste or Varna
5:56 Varna system in Ancient India
9:23 Differentiating between Rishi and Sanyasi
13:50 Hindu sages deflected from chronology/providence
17:20 Hindu scriptures quote rules & ways of transcending them
21:24 Varna not classification: recognition of traits
25:30 Karma re-birth theory
30:15 Varna Hierarchy
37:08 Natyashastra: Vedic knowledge to common people
40:50 Rights and Duties in Social structure
44:30 Various kinds of marriage
47:00 Nature and Culture
50:00 Shudra’s responsibility towards environment
54:52 Rigidity of Varna System
56:04 The purpose of Varnas
58:48 Vedas: recitation
1:03:10 Knowledge with rightful owner
1:07:10 Forces of Nature
1:09:45 Accommodating nature of Hinduism
1:12:20 Non-Vedic Traditions
Subscribe to our UA-cam channels:
UA-cam English: / sangamtalks
UA-cam Hindi: / sangamhindi
Follow Sangam Talk on social media :
Telegram : t.me/sangamtalks
Twitter: / sangamtalks
Facebook: /
Instagram: /
Website: www.sangamtalks.org
Donate: www.sangamtalks.org/donate
UA-cam English: / sangamtalks
UA-cam Hindi: / sangamhindi
Follow Sangam Talk on social media :
Telegram : t.me/sangamtalks
Twitter: / sangamtalks
Facebook: /
Instagram: /
Website: www.sangamtalks.org
Donate: www.sangamtalks.org/donate
Pankaj saxena has absolutely true and deep knowledge of sanatan dharma....thank you for sharing this knowledge..🙏🙏🙏🙏
I found this a very poor dialogue. It hardly went in to the Varna. I was expecting a lot from this session and a lot of insights. Disappointed. The lawyer by profession individual is all over the place and doesn't seem to bring any depth of knowledge! I expect high quality and well researched guests/discussion on Sangam.
So true
I agree this person in beard & glasses seems to be a Devdutt Patnaik type but more suave. This one is a thumbs down for me
Agree. I was expecting the speakers to talk more about Varna and Varnasankara. Disappointed!
Agree totally
I think the Varna system is got twisted overtime by our invaders. Because every traveller who came to India said they never saw poverty and India was a rich and flourishing country with a rich heritage and culture. So whatever system that was used was definitely good. Ancient India is known to have pioneered medicine, mathematics, astronomy and science.
varna vyavastha now is the same as in the time of ramayan no changes are made as all the puranas itihasa and vedas are preserved carefully in the four mathas
@@blazeofsea6843 Even ManuSmriti in Chapter 2 Verse 168 says
योऽनधीत्य द्विजो वेदमन्यत्र कुरुते श्रमम् ।
स जीवन्नेव शूद्रत्वमाशु गच्छति सान्वयः
The twice-born man, who, not having learnt the veda, labours over other things, soon falls, along with his descendants, even while living, to the state of the śūdra
So which means that If you did not studied Vedas ,You are Considered as patits to Shudras.
Current caste system discussions are basically about 1) caste based politics by certain political parties 2) religious conversion of Hindus . This caste dialogue is basically serve these 2 purposes. Nothing else
What's there someone to corrupt? He is clearly saying Varna is by birth and regardless how intelligent you are you shoud do your Shudra slavery respecting Dharma! Point now is how relavent this flawed concept to present day Hinduism? I know many Brahmins who are not worth a penny but because of Dharma i am supposed to respect them? Today many Hindus including Shudras and Dalits supporting BJP for development and appeasement politics of Congress that doesn't mean we are now Happy to serve Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vysya people 😂 this Varna bullshit is majorly from Manusmriti .. smriti is open to reforms thus Hindu leaders who ever they are should come forward to say this concept is irrelevant! Otherwise Hinduism will be limited to Brahmins only religion.
In Tamil Nadu almost all temples the Pooja is done by cooks ("Pandarams" in Tamils) except the Temples which have recieved songs either by Alwars or Nayanmars and only in this temples the Bhramins can perform Poojas.
Excellent format! Please have more such dialogues in this format
The person with black shirt with bald head is too educated to understand our scriptures....So stop inviting these type of people... Krishna did love to Radha when he was between 8 to 11years so please mind what you are talking about
THANK YOU ALL...!!!
IT IS AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT AND THE DISCUSSION WAS GREAT FOR SEARCHING FURTHER WISDOM BEYOND OUR ORDINARY KNOWLEDGE...!!!
I am not a vedic scholar...but l am learning just like the ancient RISHIS learned in the modern world...interpreting , analyzing, and comparing stories and events that is divine and historical ...with science and intuition...!!!
I have incorporated my life , my profession and families and personalities of different society and nations ...with my official and unofficial education and experiences...!!!
Today I came to the understanding that vedic wisdom is not just studying veda or chant the mantras in a particular sound...!!! But it is in interpreting correctly with your critical thinking and wisdom to reach the right path for the right outcome...!!!
It is also important to sound correctly to convey the right message...not because it is sacred...but because we have multiple languages and words that sound the similar ways with entirely opposite meaning...!!!
2)
Vedas education was controlled not because of the varnas...!!!
Because to have vedic knowledge , one must be dedicated and trust worthy...means one must have responsibility & accountability...!!!
Ancient times there was labour division...mostly the professional or skilled jobs were performed by the same families or groups... and they passed that to their generations after generations...!!!
That maintained quality and order...harmony and peace...!!!
Brahmins , Kshatriyas , Vaishyas , and Shudras were one of that labor divisional groups...!!!
You can understand that through todays professional and other labor classes...!!!
For example l cannot or you cannot do a scientist's job...unless you have the official education and must take that education seriously with accountability and responsibility...!!!
Brahmins had the ability...that is acquired naturally and by learning ...!!! So they were Advisers and spiritual leaders unlike today...!!!
Their dedication to that was not to make them wealthy but powerful to maintain peace and prosperity to the whole humanity...!!!
They were using their wisdom ...the spiritual science and passed on to the right people...!!!
Vedas were the rules and laws ...customs and traditions...then...!!!
Every thing had a psychological and physiological aspect of science to it...!!!
For maintaining and promoting healthy nature , universe and life...!!!
To maintain beauty ...balance...purity ( pollution free) and harmony...!!!
In science we call THE EQUILIBRIUM...!!!
Excellent discussion of a very controversial topic in the modern world. We should not feel apologetic and try to prove or justify anything to anyone. At the same time it is important that the varna / caste system is not used as a tool to oppress any people in this day and age.
Anand Prasad literally talking about everything EXCEPT for the topic that is to be discussed.
Awesome Session.
42:53 Sita committed suicide??? Rama committed suicide??? I would've been receptive to anything else, but using such terminologies for Avatara-purushas like Lord Ramachandra (who was beyond the law of karma, and whose human pastimes were that: "pastimes" ie "leelas", and not karma, nor the result of any prior karma) is grossly inappropriate.
Also make a SERIES on THOUGHT LS OF AMBEDKAR ON HINDUISM AND ISLAM
WHOLE DEDCIATED SERIES
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa |
karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 ||
18:41. The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions.
His view on hinduism were biased
But he used to like the philosophy of hinduism like Vedanta
All the viewers have you listen the story about the "Battle of Varna"?
No
@@user-kt3jn7wx5f why?
Can you please elaborate?
@@arghyachakraborty ua-cam.com/video/iM-yXCeoRXc/v-deo.html, watch the video.
@@shreeanshshukla148 Thank you for sharing.
Romila thapar in the background.
You forgot wendy donigers and devdat patnaik in background, he is a combination of all 3 morons
@@user-rh1kc2kr4y Current caste system discussions are basically about 1) caste based politics by certain political parties 2) religious conversion of Hindus . This caste dialogue is basically serve these 2 purposes. Nothing else .
Gita described Varna system on the basis of Caste
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ | tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 || 4:13.
The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa | karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 || 18:41.
The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions /capacities.
Vo. तो. बोलकर पेसा. Banti. Hea. कम्युनिस्ट. Jo. Ab. Athest. Jyhadi. जो अपने. कों. बिना. कुछ. किया
🙏🙏🙏🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
Jyoti Rao Phule was not allowed to learn Manu Smriti nor could he have been a teacher under Sanatana Dharma. Well he went to East India Company School organized under McCaulay's system and acquainted himself with Thomas Paine's writings and French ideas about Rights of Man.
Current caste system discussions are basically about 1) caste based politics by certain political parties 2) religious conversion of Hindus . This caste dialogue is basically serve these 2 purposes. Nothing else
Gita described Varna system on the basis of Guna.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ | tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 || 4:13.
The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa | karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 || 18:41.
The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions /capacities.
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 There is "theoretical". But what matters is what is practiced.
I am born as Shudra cause in my past life i was so much wanted to become a slave..
Whenever a clear demarcation is not seen or wanted ..Where edges merge and demerge at places ...The whole set of such possibilities are called a spectrum ..Like a colour spectra ..Hues of colours ..Varna ..
The same in many fields ..Electromagnetic spectrum .Visual spectrum ..Autism spectrum ..varna applied in various fields
जन्म से जाति है । जाति के गुण के अनुसार वर्ण में बदलाव होता है । जन्म से मृत्यु तक लोग कर्म से जुड़े रहते थे और सभी के लिए प्रमुख उद्देस्य ' मोक्ष ' जुड़ा रहता था ।
अभी की प्रणाली में जिसमें लोग पेन्शन लेते है वर्ण प्रणाली को नही समझ सकते ?
Even ManuSmriti in Chapter 2 Verse 168 says
योऽनधीत्य द्विजो वेदमन्यत्र कुरुते श्रमम् ।
स जीवन्नेव शूद्रत्वमाशु गच्छति सान्वयः
The twice-born man, who, not having learnt the veda, labours over other things, soon falls, along with his descendants, even while living, to the state of the śūdra
So which means that If you did not studied Vedas ,You are Considered as patits to Shudras.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa |
karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 ||
18:41. The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions.
Where can learn whatever is being discussed? Please suggest me books.
Hindu scriptures say about four Varma's as clarified in Geeta; it is based on your own original vasanaas (tendancies to act or work in the world) and the greatness of work or person who is doing it actually based on how best same is able to be done. Dignity or greatness of a person is NOT based on one's possession of wealth health money or political power. Your goal in life must be remembered; ultimately Happyness which in turn is peace in own mind: so calm the mind and be truly intelligent instead of apping western culture
I thought there are 7 varnas
Gita described Varna system on the basis of Guna.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ | tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 || 4:13.
The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa | karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 || 18:41.
The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions /capacities.
First we must understand that our mind itself is our own friend and at the same enemy; for our actions and reactions in world is as directed by mind! Mind is nothing but recollection/memories of our own perceptions/experiences in life. Mind is flow of thoughts of past experiences; in present it is zero. I n future also our mind is just imagining or its own anxiety prediction etc. That too based on past. Past things must be buried as it has not existing in present. Again, just as pure water flowing in river makes river very useful to all, good and positive thoughts makes mind Happy. Materialism taught in schools and colleges are only poisons to humanity/human happiness.
I feel Pankaj is a scholar, whereas, Anand is just a debater with fixed line of argument. So, this dialogue is between two unequal quantum of knowledge
There are many evidencesvto suggest that Varna was not genetic birth based. First genetic evidence suggests that there was admixture amongst Indians until approx 100 AD. By this time India had many foreign influxes who in their original home lands had slavery. Jati was simply community and not varna and Gita says Varna could be attained by training and disciplining oneself. In Sarasvati Valley Karma and its fruitscwerevto be shared. Foreign influences affected the system and by 100 AD, Jaati began to be linked with Varna and genetic evidence shows it became strictly endogamous and thus started the degradation of meritocracy and Sanatan Dharma of Krishna became Hinduism of the slave system encoded as caste equal to Jaati equal to Varna by birth. Thisvis likeva footbl player bevoming electric engineer exampple by Prassad and not Varna by merit. Many new Jaatisbsprang up. Higher status was captured by power rather than merit. Nowvreservation is sought after instead of higher caste status.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa |
karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 ||
18:41. The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions.
Well if the varna system is based on the inherent qualities of an individual then why did hereditary monarchy exist in ancient india ?
It is not necessary that the eldest child will have the quality of a kshatriya.
Obviously all princes were given training to be the best rulers.
But the eldest son being born earlier obviously received better grooming.
Infact there are instances that when the eldest became corrupt or didn't became king... the younger was made to ascend the throne in Hindu scriptures.
All the kings that u find of mention are obviously the best of their people.
That inherit Qualities is not easy to change as you think.
Foolish judgement as the death of Rama and Sita are not suicide. Very bad thought. Even if suicidal as they deliberately left, the cause associated with these is meaningless. As there are so many versions of the end of Rama and Sita, and was not part of the core 6 kandas of Ramayana. If you take 7 kanda as truth then strict to what it says, why do you want to judge that with your imagination. 😭
Super counters and clear explanations, more convincing from Pankaj Saxena
The agreement seems to be good at the restriction that is posted to a Brahmin community person to learn the Veda Mantra as they are sound (more to do with the emphasis on the swaras, that needs lot of training) based lang distinct from just scripts based.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
Plz try to conversation in hindi. Because lot of misunderstanding/misinformation in North India. Mostly North India face invade.
Sir read Brainwashed Republic book. You would get it in pdf.
It would have been great if these gentlemen also incorporated the gender perspective into this conversation. How do you justify the fact that women were prohibited from chanting the Vedas?
What about brahmavedinis? Who were interested in scholarly works in vedas were encouraged in further studies
no where Manu mentions what can be done to be Brahmin, kshatriya or vaishya,what trainings are required etc, only revered knowledge is that of vedas which is sacred and only for upper three varnas
Gita described Varna system on the basis of Guna.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ | tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 || 4:13.
The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa | karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 || 18:41.
The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions /capacities.
Dear admin, at 25.10, you said "varna is birth based", in which verse of the book, mentioned it? One born according to the karma of the past life into a particular family of varna, but he cannot claim the varna without complete the basic foundation of the requirement, or he falls out. Rama and Sita committed suicide? omg, where you got this info...
Varnashram is neither based on Birth nor based on Choice. It's based on Qualification. It has both Primary and Secondly Factors. Primary being the Guna & Karma as mentioned in Bhagavat Gita and Secondary being the birth. Now birth doesn't necessarily become irrelevant when it comes to Varna but it is never a Primary Factor. Acc to Dharma Shastras when a Pure Bramhana marries a Pure Bramhini (Marriage within the same Varna only) and they before begetting a child observe the 10 Samskaras then generally the child born has the same Varna as their parents (Bramhan Varna) the reason is that we get Varna acc to actions of Past Lives so if a Person in his past life did karma which makes him destined to become Bramhan in next life then he will after death be born in a family where the Anulom Vivah (Marriage within Same Varna) and 10 Samskaras were Performed. Then through Good Upbringing and Later Upanayan Samskar will be fine and eventually the child will take up Bramha Karma. Such child who is born through Anulom Vivah and Samskaras generally shows the Qualities of the same Varna as parents. However if the Samskaras are not done then the child born in Bramhan Family is Called Bramha Bandhu (Friend of a Bramhan) but he is not considered a Bramhan and because of lack of 10 Samskaras the child will not show the 12 Bramhminical Qualities. Therefore the chain of Anulom Vivah and Dasa Samskaras cannot Break for even once. However this is the GENERAL RULE & not the ABSOLUTE RULE so it is sometimes possible that even though Samskaras were done still the child shows the Qualities Different then parents Varna. Suppose a Bramhan couple had a child who shows Qualities of a Kshatriya then that child will be encouraged to become a Kshatriya, this was however not observed generally, as mostly it was seen the the child showed same Varna. Those born in Dvija Families but without Samskaras or even if with Samskaras lack the Qualities of that Dvijas then they are Considered Dvija Bandhu and not Dvija.
Varna cannot be Changed for one who is in the Jurisdiction of Vaidik Varnashram, which means if I am born in a Bramhan Family with all Samskaras and Anulom Vivah and since birth I have always shown the Qualities of a Bramhan only then I am supposed to do the work of a Bramhan because I am showing Qualities of a Bramhan, I cannot do the Karma of a Kshatriya based on Choice then, I can do that only if I have the Qualities of Kshatriya or if there is a state of High Emergency.
Therefore neither birth nor Choice but Qualification. If it was based strictly on Birth solely then it would be Discriminating and Would not be correct, if it was based on Choice then a person may chose and do a particular work for which they don't have Qualities (Suppose a person who is business minded a Vaishya nature but he contrary to his nature became a Bramhana then he will only try to earn by the profession and in this way pollute the Bramhan Samaj, same thing if a Person of Shudra nature becomes king, he will either exploit or may be inefficient ruler. Therefore Krishna says "Guna Karma Vibhagasha" - based on Inate Nature (Qualities) and Work. Another word which can be used is Svabhaav.
Sometimes it is observed that some people changed their Varna like Sri Vishwamitra Muni from Kshatriya to Bramhan it was because of Tapasya.
Now bhakti is something which cannot be bound so a Vaishnav, a Bhakta is beyong Varnashram and therefore they cannot be subjugated by it however unless one has reached the stage of Paramhamsa it is expected that one follows Varnashram.
I don't think anyone was ever stoped studying Vedas . In Sushrut samhita (Ayurved is mentioned as upang of Atharva ved ) it's mentioned that Brahmin can teach Chikitsa to Brahmin, Kshatriya , veshya and shudra. Kshatriya can teach Veshya and Shudra, and Veshya can teach Kshudra.
I think the purpose of that may be that one can upgrade them selves from one varn to another. And ultimately one who had achieved highest knowledge in their educational field is called Brahmin .
This talk reinforces the popular concept instead of challenging the popular concept of Varna.
Please google "caste system became rigid 70 generations ago" to find out the latest research. The case is solved, Caste System was fluid and not rigid by birth only 70 generations ago!
Caste is a Portuguese word which was introduced in 1500 when Portuguese arrived in India
Krishna ( OBC) from current standard become ultimate God who is worshipped by everyone.
🤣🤣🤣have u lost ur mind?
Lord Krisna is Kshatriya....and at that time there was no BOBA SAHEB AMBEDKAR.....it is not that caste which was created by bhim SAHEB......but in our scriptures u would see reference of Jaati And Kula ...which are very much different.....
OBC = ?
@@being7002 But Yadav are considered OBC now right?.
Mahabharat is Written by Vyas who was born as Sudra but become Maharishi. These guys are talking caste was fixed.
This should be seen as fast economy model and not as casteism. Rest part of the world had slave system. Similar to todays chinese model.
Evidences uncorruoted : Raavan a Brahmin vied for Sita a Kshatriya, Chanakya trained Chandragupta Maurya a tribal as a Kshatriya based on merit, Duryodhana got Karna qualfied for the kshatriya sport by making him King, Shantanu the ancestor of Pandavas and kauravas and Bhishmas father did not marry within his Jaati/caste. Ancient India is full of examples of Varna by performance and absence of restrictions on marriage within community. . Example of Rishis cited by Saxena of brahminhood being attained by merit are correct. If this was so amongst those who formed the rules it was more amongst coommon folks as genetic evidence shows.
Evudences corrupted: Dont go by what is written because all penning down was done selectively post the corruption of the varna system. Now varna was automatic by birth and therevwas no place for merit except in rare cases eg Shivajis caste at the time of their peak power were considered true Kshatriyas.
Agreed
And I think those everyone Vaidhya was a Brahmin in which ever Varn they born.
gandharva vivha is not one night stand
samadhi is not called suicide
Sitaji went to her mother's home. her mother earth. in other words it can also be called bhumi samdhi.
simailarly Ramji has taken Jal samadhi. samdhi system to reach higher levels of consciousness / lokas.
Stupid session, full of misrepresentations. Please get people who understand the texts, not people who only have an opinion on it and are probably here only because they can speak in English.
The Greek thought know thyself is not equivalent to the Vedic Sanatan thought who am I? The greek one is not at all transcendental ie adhyatma in nature..it is knowing the truth abt one's bio and diverse and psychic tendencies that bring one face to face with the vast phenomena. Confusions in this dialogue..
Question is whether Varnas have any relevance today as a practical matter and the answer is a big NO.
What does the Guy mean Vishwamitra never became Brahmin just Brahmarishi.. There is an entire Gotra in Brahmins called Vishwamitra Gothra.. Armchair researchers should not be brought to public discussions🙄
Even I come from Vishwamitra Gotra. He do not have knowledge I think so.
BG 4.13
catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam
Not by birth, quality and work determine's your Varna. That's why there is 2nd birth of initiation for Bramanas.
Even ManuSmriti in Chapter 2 Verse 168 says
योऽनधीत्य द्विजो वेदमन्यत्र कुरुते श्रमम् ।
स जीवन्नेव शूद्रत्वमाशु गच्छति सान्वयः
The twice-born man, who, not having learnt the veda, labours over other things, soon falls, along with his descendants, even while living, to the state of the śūdra
So which means that If you did not studied Vedas ,You are Considered as patits to Shudras.
Sir for your clarity with regard to varna system read indian history before the mughals invading india.
Yes before foreign there is no caste concept only Varna based on Guna.
Svecchachari is known as Sudra. It is not a derogatory term.
For your information gandharav vivaha is not one night stand sir. It is a love marriage as per your so called modern life or modern day.
He just throwing garbage at Hinduism selectively
Ancient Indian spiritual (आध्यात्मिक धर्म) to transcendental human (animal behaviour of ignorance, lust, hatred) to enlighened one (wisdom, loving kindnessf, morality) by dharma training (धर्म शिक्षण) which is denied by brahman and manusmruti to all other varna. So Shraman (jains, budhist) make revolt against this system and free dharma teaching to all. There is always debate revolution and counter revolution between brahman and shraman that you not discussed. Indian society value must be base on equality, fraternity, justice and freedom of speech. (समता, बंधुता,, न्याय, स्वातंत्र्य )
forget Varna in the current situation the caste or varna consciousness should be dissolved talk how it can be done otherwise wasting time. Anybody can become anyone, cannot be confined in a framework of Varna.
Lol. So u have no faith in shashtra.
26:00 in the west too there are a lot of quacks who have become great teachers working on on reincarnation? For example....?
DHARMA. There's nothing called varna system. It is Varnashramadharma .Exact examples or translations are not possible. Just imagine Blood groups. Similarly varnasramadharma for each individual. By nature,aptitude,capability etc one does practice satya dharma .Appropriate duty. If followed,individual and society benefit. It was the duty of kings (government)to engage individuals as per talent etc. Identification was not based on where or to whom born. Ref Srimad Bhagavatham 7/11 to 15. and many more.
Even ManuSmriti in Chapter 2 Verse 168 says
योऽनधीत्य द्विजो वेदमन्यत्र कुरुते श्रमम् ।
स जीवन्नेव शूद्रत्वमाशु गच्छति सान्वयः
The twice-born man, who, not having learnt the veda, labours over other things, soon falls, along with his descendants, even while living, to the state of the śūdra
So which means that If you did not studied Vedas ,You are Considered as patits to Shudras.
This is the least well-researched talk I have ever seen on Sangam Talks. There is a research paper by IIT on genetics that came out a few years back, that conclusively proves that the caste system became rigid by birth ONLY 70 generations ago. It proves beyond any doubt, that before 70 generations ago (roughly a thousand years ago, compensating for child marriage) no caste was based on birth, and people could freely change their varna and/or inter-marry between varna. Please give this first gentleman this research paper to read then he can argue against SCIENCE as long as he wants. Sangam Talks should also read it, in order to host better debates!
[Please Google "caste system became rigid 70 generations ago" and educate yourselves with the latest research before discussing this topic again!]
Could u provide the link to that research paper....
Here is a link to a paper on that study - 14.139.220.61/academic/AB1_PNAS.pdf
Unfortunately I have not been able to access the study itself, if you can find it please send me the link also
Google chrome may block the page from opening, you can click on "advanced" and choose to open it, it is safe.
EDIT: here, found it - www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full
This study proves that caste system bacame rigid only 70 generations ago, before that there was fluidity between all caste.
If varna is based on karma then do you have any example of _Kshudra Sharmaji_ and _Brahamin Valmiki?_
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa |
karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 ||
18:41. The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions.
Gita described Varna system on the basis of Guna.
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ | tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 || 4:13.
The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa | karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 || 18:41.
The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions /capacities.
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 professor,
1. do you stand with Manusmriti?
2. Why did Dr BR Ambedkar burn manusmriti?
@@user-nu1cs3nt5z no one care about Manu Smriti
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 so which varna you belong to?
All our genes are same ,
Jai bhim 🙏 ... dalit hindu nhi
Every caste should be classified as a national treasure .completely free to fund and educate itself in the highest dharma in accordance with national goals.No caste, India collapses.
@^ KING OF THE KINGS ^ everyone should .is the only way out.
4 mins in a can only hear a waffler
Saxena is poor at mental gymnastics
This is such a misleading discussion.
You don't have to be a brahmin to attain moksha. You can be a shudra and attain moksha. So every varna had equal opportunity to attain moksha. A shudra don't have to strive to become a brahmin in next life and then attain moksha.
Disappointed with the discussion.
Varna system was terrorist system , we can devide people rich or middle class or poor to guide them how to rich
I wrote a comment here giving scriptural references about varna. But that must not be acceptable to Sangam talks, so they removed it. Please drop the pretense about being open-minded. You are not willing to learn.
This discussion is really poor and shallow
Sir he do not know that there is a Gotra on Brahmins called Vishwamitra. And he is saying that Vishwamitra is not converted to Brahmin!
@@RK-yp1gg Vishwamitra become Mahrishi which is height og being Brahman. This is typical Anti Hindu discussion by this guy Prasad and also guy in middle.
Current caste system discussions are basically about 1) caste based politics by certain political parties 2) conversion of Hindus . This caste dialogue is basically serve these 2 purposes. Nothing else .
cātur-varṇyaṃ mayā sṛṣṭaṃ guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ |
tasya kartāram api māṃ viddhy-akartāram avyayam || 13 ||
4:13. The [social] system of four castes was generated by Me according to division of Gunas and Karma. Though I am the generator, know Me as a non-agent and immutable.
brāhmaṇa kṣatriya viśāṃ śūdrāṇāṃ ca paraṅtapa |
karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāva prabhavair guṇaiḥ || 41 ||
18:41. The duties of the Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas; Vaishyas and the Śūdras O Arjuna, are distinctly divided according to their inherent dispositions.
ved vyasa was born out of niyog technique, not gandarva vivah.
none of the vivah is time bound it just how vivah took place . learned guest is either ignorant or willfully lying
these learned guest are either ignorant or willfully lying eg they say gandharva vivah is one night stand not true eg Bharat shakuntala marriage was gandharva vivah. All vivah are based on how marriage takes place but are permanent marriages
I read my Amar Chitra Katha Shakuntala. And had an arranged marriage. I arranged it, to the consternation of my parents. I arranged a Gandharva marriage.
Yes, gāndharva marriage is not exactly one-night stand. One night stand has no responsibility attached to it. Those who engage in it, they are not needed to have any connections with the other whatsoever. On the other hand, gāndharva marriage although is accomplished via consensual copulation, it is a marriage as the partners are married via it and bounded to one another. Furthermore, there must also be love b/w the partners. So, gāndharva marriage is kinda love marriage, but not the love marriage that is practiced in contemporary times, which is a haphazard mixture
Can’t even listen thru 10 mins of this speech. Even educated have such shallow perspective of the varna system. Very sad.
Humanrace must be thankful caste system & slavery in other parts of the world. Otherwise today we would have been living in caves and instead of jean-pants we woud have been wearing animal skins around our privates.When mankind failed to exercise their freedom appropriately for common goals these these two systems came into existance naturally. Example,guess there is shortage of a people for particular job. Rulers had two option. One, to employ his section of people forcibly for the job. Second was to raid other state and after winning make their people slave for the job. These were the fast growing economic models of that time like the chinese model of today. China has curtailed democratic rights of 140 millions people to drive the growth.discreminatory by todays democratic models. In india these people have got reservations for govt jobs and crying discremination but what about those millions of those slaves who even had no social recognition and got no such faciliies. India could have adopted slavery system but tried caste system to ensure ancient wisdom to last generation & fast economy.India had about a one fourth share of world economy.this was possible only through adopting caste system. That is why indian culture survived. These people absence of knowledge project themselves as victims. Today caste system is irrelevant because most of caste based professions are no more. There r lots means that can be used to make our culture survive like audio/visuals. I will answer every question that Ambedkar couldn't do.
The person here is very offensive, Terms like Suicide etc and Saying Krishna deviated from Dharma whenever he wanted and Making Immature Comments on Lord's Svakiya and Parakiya Lila and suing the word "Poor fellow died by accident" is highly Offensive and Rascaldom
caste system has no upward mobility only down ward that is what makes it different than class system of rest of the world
He (Pankaj Saxena) is saying Varna is determined by Kundali?
Wait varna doesn't have upward mobility ? Infact in all our scriptures....upward mobility has more prominence than downward.
@@RK-yp1gg I have not heard the full video...but this kundali thing is not specifically written anywhere. But it _can_ said to be based on kundali...cuz kundali is based on our inherent qualities only.
@@RK-yp1gg these learned guest are either ignorant or willfully lying eg they say gandharva vivah is one night stand not true eg Bharat shakuntala marriage was gandharva vivah. All vivah are based on how marriage takes place but are permanent marriages
@R K What rare ? Many instances are there.
Rather downward mobility is rare.
What the heck is this Guy saying about the marriages of Rama and Krishna... Radha was not an 'affair'. Why do we have idiots on the panel who clearly don't know Dharma... Bhagvaan Ram committed suicide? What is this guy reading Devdutt Patnaik? Rama was yoga sidha he could revert to his Loka at his own wish and that's what he did. Many rishis can sit in dhyana and leave their bodies it's a simple known fact in all epics. Sitaji was also yoga sidha she didn't commit suicide... She was absorbed back into her own form through Samadhi. She is Bhudevi herself. I wonder what sort of backgrounds you have to have to be on this show... Just read a little bit if Devdutt Patnaik and you're good to come on the show?
i am only like PANKAJ SAXENA
Anand sir 1st read the original Ramayana and Mahabharatha and understand in the aspect which is written there. Do not interpret it as per your understanding. Understand them the way they are meant to express. Rama shows how the son has to perform his dharma. And krishna shows that we cannot attain everything by following Gandhi ideas as peace etc...... Dharma is not a Religion. Religion is a way of performing the prayer or pooja. Whereas Dharma is a way of life, which sanatana Dharma shows us.
Disappointing talk here. Confusion between varnas and Jatis. Gunas are different from character and inclination. Lawyer becoming musician not attributable to any change in the varnas. The beard guy is totally confused 😕 Gunas are intrinsic, like sweetness attributed to sugar. Varnas are based on this Gunas and of course KARMAS.
The Hun (Anand Prasad) wants genetic Varna system?
Sanathan dharma sees every human being as equals.
What is the Varna of Mughal and British?
Ramayana and Mahabharata clearly show that Varna system was never cruelly imposed like how the Indo-Greeks, Huns and British imposed on us.
that's called stupid talk......................................................................
"Gospel Truth" 🙄🙄🙄 what's that Babu? 😂
Bible
@@dharmikrakshak8340 And that is "TRUTH" ? 😉😂😂😂😂
@@sunnynight1847 that is lie not truth
Caste system division of Hindu society is tool for dividing Hindus and doing CONVERSION BUSINESS.
Excuse my reference in identifying the participant's identity. I don't know their names.
The bald head guy is contradicting himself. He bwgan talking in a liner mode and then switch to a cyclic time line. The modern time line is linier and his references has nothibg to do with the varna s yg stem. He is so fake and seem to be western schooled and ignorant of the Dharmic literature. If he wants to get some clarity on the topic discussed - go to Acharya Agnivrat and vedic physics. He is on UA-cam if you really care.
Both of them don't know the truth varnas are flexible not fixed
Very disappointed