Trace Velo have tried out similar pulley wheels, and found that they clog up with dirt almost immediately and are worse than the original after just a few miles. Unsealed bearings are not worth it if you are running them for any real distances between bearing services.
Well he did put the seals back on after ... Also maybe wheels and bottom bracket depend on how stuff fits on side of bearing might protect from dirt enough to not need seals on bearings
The drag from these tiny pulley wheel stock bearings is pretty much negligible compared the frictional losses from the the loaded chain. Even the bearings from the wheel hubs have far more significant drag. You are not going to see any measureable difference in wattage savings but the bearings will not last nearly as long
One problem with changing the top pulley is it has no side float. This can make setting up and maintaining the indexing a real bore. I have changed my top pulleys back to Shimano just to regain the side to side float and get better shifting and quieter running.
Yeah the modern derailleurs don't have that float. It's also taken out of the shifter. The old shifters (ultegra 6800 mechanical for example) used to push the upper pulley just a fraction past the cog, then settle back into alignment. With Di2 this stopped being viable.
@@galenkehler I'm glad I read this reply. I'm someone with old Ultegra 6800, and have been considering updating to Di2. But knowing the upper had float in it on my GS I have now, and newer ones don't, just both saved me more tinkering with my indexing, and not looking for it on the newer Gas. I honestly didnt know it was there. Ive had a time with ibdexing/ louder running drive train for a while now, and now know why. I changed both pulleys put to some ones similar to the ones in this video quite some time ago. Thank you.
Bought a set of sealed-ceramic pulleys several years ago. No cares about "marginal gains", but they have survived quite well without developing any binding or grittiness, and have required no disassembly or re-greasing, which is what I was after.
The aluminium jockey wheel spins longer mostly because its weight is distributed more around the edge of the wheel than near the centre (it has more rotational inertia).
I didn't think I'd ever side with Hambini, but I have to this time. The fact that a bearing spins fast (especially with no lubrication) has absolutely no bearing on how it will perform under load.
I was going to point this out as well. It's just a mistake to believe that the length of the freespin is an indicator of the loaded drag. But it looks and feels "fast".
I second to that! Plus, one can wonder for how long are they going to last. Under load they might seize in no time compared to the modest pulleys with bushings that seem to last forever.
Nice one for those of us who are component pests. I enjoy tinkering with mechanisms in search of marginal performance improvements. But I also have a recurring nightmare about reducing my perfectly functional bike to a pile of dismantled components because I think that I know better than Shimano. 🙂
If it makes you feel any better, you can rest easy. 1, you're not alone in this. 2, I perpetually have a bike in a pile because I know more than everyone😂
@@ghowell13 Exactly! I've had a rear cassette humming away in an ultrasonic cleaner today when (if I'm honest with myself) dish cleaner and a paint brush would have been fine.
Ive had the ultersonic running all weekend, lol. My daughter and I race BMX. Shes grown 2 frame sizes over the off season, and I'm building up 2 bikes for her, and rebuilding a bime for myself, as I got it used and didn't know the service history. Everything went in for a heated bath, it seemed. My poor, long suffering wife. And next weekend is Mother's Day here in the US....
Average Joe you-tuber with 200 subscribers: “ok, these pulley wheels don’t fit, I’m going to order the good ones and retake the video and see how it goes”… GCN: “Nah… let’s assume they fit, who cares, we’re not going to spend another $12 with our tight budget”
Lovely video Johnson 👏👏👏! I can't get the thought out of my mind that if any of these modifications to the original Dura Ace jockey wheels actually improved long and short term performance, Shimano would have made the modifications themselves to their OEM parts. After all, we are talking about Shimano's "price is no factor" component. One thing not mentioned in this video is the extra length of chain needed to accommodate oversized jockey wheels. That means even more grams added beyond the extra weight of the oversized jockey wheels and the larger cage. I'm all for tinkering on my bike, but beyond the bling colors of these replacement jockey wheel assemblies, I just don't feel the love. P.S. It would be cool if Shimano did offer their premium rear derailleurs with color options for the jockey wheels. GOLD jockey wheels with a gold chain!!! 🙌🙌🙌
If OSPWs are so advantageous, how come Shimano doesn’t just increase the stock sizes to get better chain articulation in the top of the line range where prices are less of a factor. There must be a reason they stick with the smaller pulley wheels.
Probably manufacturing reasons? At least the upper 2-3 tiers of group sets are usually the exact same dimensions, only lighter materials up the range. If you had an OSPW Di2 mech, you have to engineer it twice. I learned that Di2/Ultegra/105 have different specs of pulley wheels, so cross-compatibility might not be an issue but the gains are probably not worth the effort for the mass market. If somebody really wants to squeeze out every watt and gram, he can still go to Ceramicspeed.
@@DoNuT_1985 yes they do have a different spec because of the narrow chain for 11 or 12 speed. If Shinamo thought this was a real they would of made them long ago There the biggest bike component company in the world manufacturing this is not a problem for them. Ceramic speed is just a good marketing company that also making bike parts just .like McDonald's is a real estate company that sell burgers
I did another variant of budget oversized pulley wheels on my winter bike... The original Shimano STX pulley wheels were worn out and instead of buying new ones, I cannibalised a 9-speed Shimano XT derailleur and got two extra teeth on the pulley wheels and better bearings... Just needed some spacers to bring the 9-speed pulley wheels to 7-speed width...
As a former downhill skateboarder, I found that Rex Domestique chain lube was the best bearing lube. When I did downhill skateboarding, bearings and bearing lube became something of a passion of mine, so I've tried lots and lots of different ones.
I had bought the alu ones for my xt 12 speed derailleur and ended up messing my shifting so I went back to my oe shimano ones which I had taken off as soon as I had bought the groupset now its working great. i also found out the oe ones have specific way they go on, the top wheels has more slack while the lower one is more stiff to better shifting while the alu chinese ones are all the same(stiff)
I purchased a circa 1995 Lynsky made Performance frame. Built it with Campy Centaur and Campy aluminum wheels. It rides just as good as my Eddy Merckx carbon frame bike. All for a fraction of the price.
For me this video again confirms there are so many better marginal upgrades than OSPW! Using bearings that wear significantly faster to save ~1 watt is up there with single use carbon chainrings!
The genuine CeramicSpeed bearings have low friction seals that are reasonably effective at preventing ingress, however they are not as effective as standard bearing seals. They will also be a full ceramic system with extremely tight tolerances, whereas the cheap ones are a hybrid with steel races, and are of a lower build quality.. The hybrid bearings wear out quicker than full ceramic. The high end OSPW systems are well designed and robust enough for hard riding, but they are definitely far from cost affective as an upgrade option for watt saving.
I bought pulley wheels with ceramic bearings a long time ago. There was a noticeable difference in performance and they worked much better. However, I don't recommend replacing wheels just to replace them. BTW, the new wheel had more bearings than the original.
I wouldn’t bother taking grease out of the pulley wheel bearings and adding a lighter oil. It may feel faster spinning freely, but with load on it there will be zero gain. The light oil will run and wash out much faster. Dirt will get in easier, especially if you damage the seals when removing or replacing. You’ll have the opposite effect quickly and have to replace the jockey wheels before long.
Already done this to a 1980s Super Record rear Der, marked improvement to the old Jockey wheels which were basically a bush fitting. Also updated a Chorus RD with the same again marked improvement with a sealed bearing over a bush fitting. As for how long they last, few thousand klm on mine so far and no issues. But cheap to replace, and I did get some bling gold ones.
I ordered a carbon oversized cage from Ali Express for about 30 euros and replaced the pully wheels with ceramic ones that even match my bike color! It's been on my bike for 2 years now, and it still shifts just fine. I didn't order it for any gains, purely for the looks of it. 😎
If you want to test how freely they spin, put a weight on the end of a chain and loop it over the pulley wheel then drop the weight and see how long it spins for after 🤷♂️
its not because its terrible. it does have alot of benefits, but those benefits are mostly in shorter trips. the benefit in efficiency is only small and due to how easy they get crap building up, they wind up becoming worse really quick. this is ultimately why it got dropped
If you're fixing new ceramic bearing pulley wheels, where can you find out the largest size teeth you can get? Was thinking of doing this to my 11T Ultegra pulleys but wanted to know if I could increase the size of them within my same derailleur
Hi, Thank you for the valuable information, but I have a question: Dura Ace is made as the best product for the professional cyclists, and it definitely is the best combination and configuration of the Shimano parts. Why shouldn't they use a bigger jockey wheel on their high-end product? The speed of the chain while pedaling at about 90 RPM and a chain ring of 50 teeth is about 100Cm/sec. and the speed of the jockey wheels are about 7.14 RPS, which throughs most particles on the chain out of the segments regarding the centrifugal force. It makes the chain clean. I have tested it, and now I am using 10t ceramic jockey wheels belonging to my old Deore XT groupset. I do not need to clean the sands and grimes from my chain any more, although I ride long distances on gravel roads too. Apart from the excessive lateral forces on the bigger jockey wheels, extra weights, aerodynamic problems and problems with the rocks on the road, I would be grateful if you please let me know the reason of installing bigger cage and jockey wheels. Best Regards,
@@andyn666 or, the races are steel, and the bearings are ceramic. Ceramic is harder than the steel, and will wear the races. Thats how a LOT of the "ceramic" bearings sold are set up, as hybrids.
I’m more concerned with the smallest cogs on the cassette. I’ve never found them smooth to ride on. On my 11-30 GRX I’d gladly loose the smallest cog for a 12-34 (10 speed) arrangement.
This is exactly why I am averse to SRAM AXS. I have no interest in a 10t cog. I almost never go fast enough to use it, let alone wanting to compromise chain friction (for a flat top chain) and have a special freehub just to accommodate it. I would much rather have a 12-30 or 12-34t cassette and thereby have more usable gears in the speed and cadence range I actually spin at 90% of the time.
@@mmmbetter55 I used to get custom cassettes from Harris Cyclery, that were assembled with just that philosophy -- aimed at touring riders who'd rather trade useless high gears for more gears in the cruising range. e.g.: 14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30,34
Interesting video, my "old" bike has plain sleeve bearings in the 9 spd jockey wheels and they don't spin freely at all - doesn't feel like much drag, but if you stop turning them they stop dead - for £15 I might try a set of these.
If chain articulation angle is a concern, people shouldn't be running 10, 11, or 12 tooth cassette cogs. Additionally, the chain is under high-tension when pulling on the cassette whereas it is not when wrapped around derailleur pulleys. Alex didn't do a "spin test" of the unmodified pulleys. Maybe they spun more freely before cleaning and oiling. Or maybe the seals got damaged when they were removed (since you're really not supposed to remove them).
Nice. Wait a minute.... Are those jockey wheel designed for a 9-speed derailleur? It looks like it's just as wide as the jockey wheels on the 9-speed rear derailleur. I know this, because I use a 3x9 group on my touring bike.
Mostly those who claimed that they experienced benefits from OSPW, doesn't use Power Meter (they just based of feel?) I wouldn't not compromise my riding just installing these bad cheap upgrades, i do believe Shimano and Sram has their own Research and Development Team (why they don't consider adapting these Tech?). There is one time Shimano put OSPW on Altus Group set but they discontinued it for a reason.
Lol I think the benefit of an OSPW is so small it's within the tolerances for most power meters. The *total* drivetrain losses are usually about 3%, and the pulley wheels are such a tiny part of that
Honnêtement j’ai équipé mon vélo du boîtier de pédalier ceramicspeed et de la chape,on sent que c’est tout de même plus fluide,vraiment ! Tu ne gagneras pas une course avec ça mais c’est agréable,ça donne une impression de mécanique extrêmement précise c’est très doux .
I tried out aluminium pulley wheels, but i got back to original Campagnolo... The noise is just annoying and the shifting quality decreases, while the bearing gets worn out...
Im glad the video was released even with the Amazon pulleys not working out. I’m a n00b and run into dead ends like this all the time. Good to know even the pros experience this. Granted, it wasn’t his fault, but still.
After experimenting with Aliexpress OSPWs, I would say you might feel a slight benefit but is probably not worth the hassle. LBS don't like to fit them and sometimes the shifting performance is reduced (when using metal jockey wheels instead of plastic ones). FYI, I went from an Aliepress 13/17t OSPW (that put too much tension on my derailleur spring, so needed a new derailleur) to using 11t ceramic jockey wheels (shifting quality reduced), to high quality stainless steel jockey wheels (Nukeproof).
Could you do a video on single sided chains? The ones that have a flat edge and standard edge. What are they for, any benefit and what they work with? Can’t see any videos on them in the search. Ta!
In a parallelogram the angle on the same side is 180°. So with an oswp the chain bent more after the upper wheel, so the articulation in summary must be the same.
Is there any downside going from grease to oil in the bearings? In literally every service video I've watched here, mechanics have been using some kind of grease instead of oils, at least when you're used to riding pretty much a full season without servicing?
Grease will cost a half a watt possibly. But service life is much longer over oil. Oil will be fast but cleaning and maintaining will be 3x more frequent. For best results do. 25% fill with a fast grease like park tool hpg or finish line ceramic grease
@@discbrakefan a half watt is a notable gain for such a small thing. It's up to the person to decide of the cleaning effort is worth it. I only do it for A races and a tend to ride a few hundred miles afterwards before I replace with grease and the grease lasts me until my next A race. I have a lot of bikes so I really only do this once a year with my TT bike. Also, not all seals are created equal. Some seals hold water and dust out very well regardless of the lubricant but then you're getting more drag from it
Wonder if it had something to do with what we just saw? The weight vs. the 1 watt savings because the chain is less bent back on itself? Couple that with the possible areo penalty for the larger wheel and cage, and yoyre going backwards in the total watts savings....?
As many of us can't afford Dura ace, it would be nice if gcn used an affordable component. I actually use 105, but having taken apart entry level equipment when repairing friends bikes, they may have bushes instead of bearings.
Alejandro, did you stop and ask yourself why Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo do not offer OSPW’s? If they were of any value, wouldn’t the component manufacturers build them into their group sets?
I have a question, a 12 speed groupset is not cheap and just the rear mech alone is going to cost a little. So why aren't the original pully wheels actually really good. It does seem strange that you would spend a lot of money on a very expensive group set and a cheap up group would actually improve it. Or does the upgrade just make you think it's better, because you spent some money.
Exact same thoughts. Except for the TT days when you see Ceramic Speed, and not fly by night Amazon brands, the pro peloton runs the stock jockey wheels.
The original pulley wheels are actually really good. The spin test in this video is meaningless. And further, "really good" can be measured on multiple vectors. Shimano (and other component makers) are balancing weight, performance, and longevity. Aftermarket generally sacrifices at least one of those.
Agreed. Given the minimal cost involved Shimano would be using something similar if there was any real benefit. That's not to say that a fully engineered version at 30x the cost wouldn't benefit but that is a different comparison.
LOL those anodized red pulley wheels would look right at home on my bike, with its red anodized bits on the handgrips and pedals, but seeing its a hybrid 8 speed with an altus derailleur I think I will just leave it alone.
I have the same aluminium ceramic pulley wheels but is 11t able to fit on my 12 speed pulley on stock cage without any issue. Maybe 13t is bigger and not able to fit on the stock cage.
I tried to put on 10 sp variants of these, with no success. They did seem to fit, but somehow the chain didn't spin through the system very well. I didn't dwell on it and regreased and reinstalled the old ones, no matter how knackered they look.
With the large bottom pulley wheel the chain deflection angle at the top pulley increases thus negating the angle reduction from the lower! So marketing BS.?😅
Prefer this style of presentation, over regurgitation of unverified "independent" watt data aka Snake oil. Nice segment. Just cleaning the thing and the bearing is marginal gain.
Unnecessary, since this gives you almost 0 gains in terms of raw watts. The weight of these pulley wheels are super small so the the power you need to turn them is very miniscule.
The big jockey wheels have no to minimal effect. The chain is not on any load when going over the jockey wheels. it is the bearing that can cause some load. The only benefit of larger jockey wheels is that they rotate slower and give less strain on the bearings.
The idea that larger jockey wheels reduce articulation and therefore friction, does not make a huge amount sense because there will be a greater number of articulated links and the chain itself needs to be longer. Think about it 🤔, the difference must be tiny.
@@zzhughesd I used to believe that thicker oils would protect better, thanks for setting me straight on that. Switching my car to run on machine oil, thing is going to fly!
Do people really think that Shimano / Sram are stupid enough to exclude OSPW's from their line-up if there was any performance gain from it, whatsoever? They designed the bloody deraileurs, the no. of teeth on the pulley wheels are not random. Not to mention alloy pulley wheels are loud as hell.
Do English speakers realise that 'abbreviations' with a W are rarely shorter than the actual words? It' literally the same amount of syllables in this case.
Have you ever tried either of these hacks?
Yep...The red ones I tried , they were too wide and didn't fit the cage as you found out , rip off China again , 3mm too wide ...
Trace Velo have tried out similar pulley wheels, and found that they clog up with dirt almost immediately and are worse than the original after just a few miles. Unsealed bearings are not worth it if you are running them for any real distances between bearing services.
It's better to buy those with normal sealed bearings and they are usually cheaper 😆
Well he did put the seals back on after ... Also maybe wheels and bottom bracket depend on how stuff fits on side of bearing might protect from dirt enough to not need seals on bearings
@@mlee6050 The seals were on the standard pulley wheel bearings not the ceramic ones. The bearing covers are not going to prevent water ingress.
@@matt_acton-varian I just thought they had them hidden under the metal sort of covers we could see
they used unsealed bearings with lube or without? In skating a lot skaters take bearing covers and they work fine but they have to be dry
If oversized pulleys were of any benefit they would be standard on duraace
Exactly
They are used on Altus and some Acera derailleurs, but only there. If you buy a better Deore you also get the small wheels.
i'll never get over the fact that "OSPW" has exactly as many syllables as "oversized pulley wheel"
Representative of their supposed benefits 😂
But the more acronyms you use the more complicated and fancy it sounds like computers!
People spend more time writing now with social media, and tbf it’s quicker to type out
The drag from these tiny pulley wheel stock bearings is pretty much negligible compared the frictional losses from the the loaded chain. Even the bearings from the wheel hubs have far more significant drag. You are not going to see any measureable difference in wattage savings but the bearings will not last nearly as long
One problem with changing the top pulley is it has no side float. This can make setting up and maintaining the indexing a real bore.
I have changed my top pulleys back to Shimano just to regain the side to side float and get better shifting and quieter running.
I think float in the top pulley is no longer a thing
@@stevenkendall8892 If it was a thing when your derailleur was made, then you may need to keep that thing.
Yeah the modern derailleurs don't have that float. It's also taken out of the shifter. The old shifters (ultegra 6800 mechanical for example) used to push the upper pulley just a fraction past the cog, then settle back into alignment. With Di2 this stopped being viable.
same experience with 5y old 105
@@galenkehler I'm glad I read this reply. I'm someone with old Ultegra 6800, and have been considering updating to Di2.
But knowing the upper had float in it on my GS I have now, and newer ones don't, just both saved me more tinkering with my indexing, and not looking for it on the newer Gas. I honestly didnt know it was there.
Ive had a time with ibdexing/ louder running drive train for a while now, and now know why.
I changed both pulleys put to some ones similar to the ones in this video quite some time ago.
Thank you.
Bought a set of sealed-ceramic pulleys several years ago. No cares about "marginal gains", but they have survived quite well without developing any binding or grittiness, and have required no disassembly or re-greasing, which is what I was after.
Which one did you buy?
The aluminium jockey wheel spins longer mostly because its weight is distributed more around the edge of the wheel than near the centre (it has more rotational inertia).
I didn't think I'd ever side with Hambini, but I have to this time. The fact that a bearing spins fast (especially with no lubrication) has absolutely no bearing on how it will perform under load.
I was going to point this out as well. It's just a mistake to believe that the length of the freespin is an indicator of the loaded drag. But it looks and feels "fast".
Hambini is just doing basic verifiable engineering, makes sense that reasonable people would agree.
I second to that! Plus, one can wonder for how long are they going to last. Under load they might seize in no time compared to the modest pulleys with bushings that seem to last forever.
Nice one for those of us who are component pests. I enjoy tinkering with mechanisms in search of marginal performance improvements. But I also have a recurring nightmare about reducing my perfectly functional bike to a pile of dismantled components because I think that I know better than Shimano. 🙂
If it makes you feel any better, you can rest easy.
1, you're not alone in this.
2, I perpetually have a bike in a pile because I know more than everyone😂
@@ghowell13 Exactly! I've had a rear cassette humming away in an ultrasonic cleaner today when (if I'm honest with myself) dish cleaner and a paint brush would have been fine.
Ive had the ultersonic running all weekend, lol. My daughter and I race BMX. Shes grown 2 frame sizes over the off season, and I'm building up 2 bikes for her, and rebuilding a bime for myself, as I got it used and didn't know the service history.
Everything went in for a heated bath, it seemed.
My poor, long suffering wife. And next weekend is Mother's Day here in the US....
Average Joe you-tuber with 200 subscribers: “ok, these pulley wheels don’t fit, I’m going to order the good ones and retake the video and see how it goes”…
GCN: “Nah… let’s assume they fit, who cares, we’re not going to spend another $12 with our tight budget”
I know right, Mr Trace Velour would have made the effort, all power to the 🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖
Ive been using those same pulley wheels on my road bike for 2300 miles they work just fine
Lovely video Johnson 👏👏👏! I can't get the thought out of my mind that if any of these modifications to the original Dura Ace jockey wheels actually improved long and short term performance, Shimano would have made the modifications themselves to their OEM parts. After all, we are talking about Shimano's "price is no factor" component. One thing not mentioned in this video is the extra length of chain needed to accommodate oversized jockey wheels. That means even more grams added beyond the extra weight of the oversized jockey wheels and the larger cage. I'm all for tinkering on my bike, but beyond the bling colors of these replacement jockey wheel assemblies, I just don't feel the love. P.S. It would be cool if Shimano did offer their premium rear derailleurs with color options for the jockey wheels. GOLD jockey wheels with a gold chain!!! 🙌🙌🙌
Dura Ace pulleys are about reliability with minimal service, not all out performance.
I ordered a gold chain and gold pulleys today :D I'm not a racer, just trying to build a beautiful bike :)
If OSPWs are so advantageous, how come Shimano doesn’t just increase the stock sizes to get better chain articulation in the top of the line range where prices are less of a factor. There must be a reason they stick with the smaller pulley wheels.
Probably manufacturing reasons? At least the upper 2-3 tiers of group sets are usually the exact same dimensions, only lighter materials up the range. If you had an OSPW Di2 mech, you have to engineer it twice. I learned that Di2/Ultegra/105 have different specs of pulley wheels, so cross-compatibility might not be an issue but the gains are probably not worth the effort for the mass market. If somebody really wants to squeeze out every watt and gram, he can still go to Ceramicspeed.
@@DoNuT_1985 yes they do have a different spec because of the narrow chain for 11 or 12 speed. If Shinamo thought this was a real they would of made them long ago There the biggest bike component company in the world manufacturing this is not a problem for them. Ceramic speed is just a good marketing company that also making bike parts just .like McDonald's is a real estate company that sell burgers
Damn was hoping to see Ace try the Amazon pulleys on his brand new pinarello
Shimano altus rear mech £14 comes with large jockey wheels, works a treat on the shopper
This is true! Definitely feel that half watt saving when off to the pub.
@@a1white and feels great on the way back, hic
I did another variant of budget oversized pulley wheels on my winter bike... The original Shimano STX pulley wheels were worn out and instead of buying new ones, I cannibalised a 9-speed Shimano XT derailleur and got two extra teeth on the pulley wheels and better bearings... Just needed some spacers to bring the 9-speed pulley wheels to 7-speed width...
- How do you know your bike has oversized pulley wheels?
- New 126 link chain is too short
As a former downhill skateboarder, I found that Rex Domestique chain lube was the best bearing lube. When I did downhill skateboarding, bearings and bearing lube became something of a passion of mine, so I've tried lots and lots of different ones.
I had bought the alu ones for my xt 12 speed derailleur and ended up messing my shifting so I went back to my oe shimano ones which I had taken off as soon as I had bought the groupset now its working great. i also found out the oe ones have specific way they go on, the top wheels has more slack while the lower one is more stiff to better shifting while the alu chinese ones are all the same(stiff)
This vid should’ve been entitled “The drawer for new bits that turned out not to fit gets two new red pulley wheels” 😅
I have that drawer too!
We all have that drawer I think. Or in my case, that bin. And by that bin, I mean THOSE BINS😂
I purchased a circa 1995 Lynsky made Performance frame. Built it with Campy Centaur and Campy aluminum wheels. It rides just as good as my Eddy Merckx carbon frame bike. All for a fraction of the price.
For me this video again confirms there are so many better marginal upgrades than OSPW! Using bearings that wear significantly faster to save ~1 watt is up there with single use carbon chainrings!
The genuine CeramicSpeed bearings have low friction seals that are reasonably effective at preventing ingress, however they are not as effective as standard bearing seals. They will also be a full ceramic system with extremely tight tolerances, whereas the cheap ones are a hybrid with steel races, and are of a lower build quality.. The hybrid bearings wear out quicker than full ceramic. The high end OSPW systems are well designed and robust enough for hard riding, but they are definitely far from cost affective as an upgrade option for watt saving.
Just curious here. Instead of using light oil in the bearings. Could you dip them into hot wax just like you do with your chain??
Not really, ball bearings are very different to chain pins & rollers.
I bought pulley wheels with ceramic bearings a long time ago. There was a noticeable difference in performance and they worked much better. However, I don't recommend replacing wheels just to replace them. BTW, the new wheel had more bearings than the original.
I wouldn’t bother taking grease out of the pulley wheel bearings and adding a lighter oil. It may feel faster spinning freely, but with load on it there will be zero gain. The light oil will run and wash out much faster. Dirt will get in easier, especially if you damage the seals when removing or replacing. You’ll have the opposite effect quickly and have to replace the jockey wheels before long.
Already done this to a 1980s Super Record rear Der, marked improvement to the old Jockey wheels which were basically a bush fitting. Also updated a Chorus RD with the same again marked improvement with a sealed bearing over a bush fitting. As for how long they last, few thousand klm on mine so far and no issues. But cheap to replace, and I did get some bling gold ones.
I've used freehub oil on my stock pulley wheels, and I service my bike very frequently. It's become my habit 😅
I ordered a carbon oversized cage from Ali Express for about 30 euros and replaced the pully wheels with ceramic ones that even match my bike color!
It's been on my bike for 2 years now, and it still shifts just fine. I didn't order it for any gains, purely for the looks of it. 😎
If you want to test how freely they spin, put a weight on the end of a chain and loop it over the pulley wheel then drop the weight and see how long it spins for after 🤷♂️
If this oversize jockey wheel have real benefit, why no manufacturer make product like this in stock? WHy shimano drop this 20 years ago? It's shite
its not because its terrible. it does have alot of benefits, but those benefits are mostly in shorter trips. the benefit in efficiency is only small and due to how easy they get crap building up, they wind up becoming worse really quick.
this is ultimately why it got dropped
If you're fixing new ceramic bearing pulley wheels, where can you find out the largest size teeth you can get? Was thinking of doing this to my 11T Ultegra pulleys but wanted to know if I could increase the size of them within my same derailleur
Hi,
Thank you for the valuable information, but I have a question:
Dura Ace is made as the best product for the professional cyclists, and it definitely is the best combination and configuration of the Shimano parts. Why shouldn't they use a bigger jockey wheel on their high-end product?
The speed of the chain while pedaling at about 90 RPM and a chain ring of 50 teeth is about 100Cm/sec. and the speed of the jockey wheels are about 7.14 RPS, which throughs most particles on the chain out of the segments regarding the centrifugal force. It makes the chain clean. I have tested it, and now I am using 10t ceramic jockey wheels belonging to my old Deore XT groupset. I do not need to clean the sands and grimes from my chain any more, although I ride long distances on gravel roads too.
Apart from the excessive lateral forces on the bigger jockey wheels, extra weights, aerodynamic problems and problems with the rocks on the road, I would be grateful if you please let me know the reason of installing bigger cage and jockey wheels.
Best Regards,
I fitted those, worn bearing under 1000 miles, bet they weren’t really ceramic
The downside of ceramic is that it warns out the bushes (the chamber they roll in)
I think the problem is they are ceramic, steel would last longer.
The problem is the ball bearings are ceramic but the bearing races are made of plastic!
@@andyn666 or, the races are steel, and the bearings are ceramic.
Ceramic is harder than the steel, and will wear the races. Thats how a LOT of the "ceramic" bearings sold are set up, as hybrids.
I’m more concerned with the smallest cogs on the cassette. I’ve never found them smooth to ride on. On my 11-30 GRX I’d gladly loose the smallest cog for a 12-34 (10 speed) arrangement.
This is exactly why I am averse to SRAM AXS. I have no interest in a 10t cog. I almost never go fast enough to use it, let alone wanting to compromise chain friction (for a flat top chain) and have a special freehub just to accommodate it. I would much rather have a 12-30 or 12-34t cassette and thereby have more usable gears in the speed and cadence range I actually spin at 90% of the time.
@@mmmbetter55 I used to get custom cassettes from Harris Cyclery, that were assembled with just that philosophy -- aimed at touring riders who'd rather trade useless high gears for more gears in the cruising range. e.g.: 14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30,34
What about using DTswiss special grease used for their hubs in the jockey wheels.
That might work if concerned about using oil
Can I use the bearing from my old, cheap fidget spinners because those spin for days?! :D
Interesting video, my "old" bike has plain sleeve bearings in the 9 spd jockey wheels and they don't spin freely at all - doesn't feel like much drag, but if you stop turning them they stop dead - for £15 I might try a set of these.
If chain articulation angle is a concern, people shouldn't be running 10, 11, or 12 tooth cassette cogs. Additionally, the chain is under high-tension when pulling on the cassette whereas it is not when wrapped around derailleur pulleys.
Alex didn't do a "spin test" of the unmodified pulleys. Maybe they spun more freely before cleaning and oiling. Or maybe the seals got damaged when they were removed (since you're really not supposed to remove them).
Nice. Wait a minute....
Are those jockey wheel designed for a 9-speed derailleur?
It looks like it's just as wide as the jockey wheels on the 9-speed rear derailleur.
I know this, because I use a 3x9 group on my touring bike.
Mostly those who claimed that they experienced benefits from OSPW, doesn't use Power Meter (they just based of feel?) I wouldn't not compromise my riding just installing these bad cheap upgrades, i do believe Shimano and Sram has their own Research and Development Team (why they don't consider adapting these Tech?). There is one time Shimano put OSPW on Altus Group set but they discontinued it for a reason.
Lol I think the benefit of an OSPW is so small it's within the tolerances for most power meters. The *total* drivetrain losses are usually about 3%, and the pulley wheels are such a tiny part of that
Honnêtement j’ai équipé mon vélo du boîtier de pédalier ceramicspeed et de la chape,on sent que c’est tout de même plus fluide,vraiment ! Tu ne gagneras pas une course avec ça mais c’est agréable,ça donne une impression de mécanique extrêmement précise c’est très doux .
I tried out aluminium pulley wheels, but i got back to original Campagnolo...
The noise is just annoying and the shifting quality decreases, while the bearing gets worn out...
Im glad the video was released even with the Amazon pulleys not working out. I’m a n00b and run into dead ends like this all the time. Good to know even the pros experience this. Granted, it wasn’t his fault, but still.
It's all about trial and error! We all hit a brick wall now and again 😊
Just a reminder: single speed drivetrains and internal gear hubs don't require a pulley. Imagine the Watts saved!
My xt rear der from 1988 (730) still has its original ceramic bearings. I guess Shimano were ahead of this trend
After experimenting with Aliexpress OSPWs, I would say you might feel a slight benefit but is probably not worth the hassle. LBS don't like to fit them and sometimes the shifting performance is reduced (when using metal jockey wheels instead of plastic ones). FYI, I went from an Aliepress 13/17t OSPW (that put too much tension on my derailleur spring, so needed a new derailleur) to using 11t ceramic jockey wheels (shifting quality reduced), to high quality stainless steel jockey wheels (Nukeproof).
Could you do a video on single sided chains? The ones that have a flat edge and standard edge. What are they for, any benefit and what they work with? Can’t see any videos on them in the search. Ta!
Dylan Johnson and Josh poertner talked about chain efficiency, including flat top chains like sram
@@pierremaggi8661 Awesome, thanks.
Why doesn't Dura Ace come with bigger pulley wheels with ceramic bearing as standard? Is this a patent problem?
In a parallelogram the angle on the same side is 180°.
So with an oswp the chain bent more after the upper wheel, so the articulation in summary must be the same.
Is there any downside going from grease to oil in the bearings? In literally every service video I've watched here, mechanics have been using some kind of grease instead of oils, at least when you're used to riding pretty much a full season without servicing?
Grease will cost a half a watt possibly. But service life is much longer over oil. Oil will be fast but cleaning and maintaining will be 3x more frequent. For best results do. 25% fill with a fast grease like park tool hpg or finish line ceramic grease
Yes, many downsides - quicker loss of lubrication, increased water ingress, increased dirt ingress, faster wear. For virtually no gain.
@@discbrakefan a half watt is a notable gain for such a small thing. It's up to the person to decide of the cleaning effort is worth it. I only do it for A races and a tend to ride a few hundred miles afterwards before I replace with grease and the grease lasts me until my next A race. I have a lot of bikes so I really only do this once a year with my TT bike. Also, not all seals are created equal. Some seals hold water and dust out very well regardless of the lubricant but then you're getting more drag from it
Even if these jockey wheels offer some marginal gains, I’d still prefer the reliability of the original ones.
The Pulley Police👮♂: "Bodge!"
I wonder if, with some fettling a lower pulley from a Altus rear mech you could actually try and make some improvements in drivetrain efficiency
I only found one pro team using ospw this year. A few years back at least 50% of the teams used ospw. Maybe not that good after all?
Wonder if it had something to do with what we just saw? The weight vs. the 1 watt savings because the chain is less bent back on itself? Couple that with the possible areo penalty for the larger wheel and cage, and yoyre going backwards in the total watts savings....?
Why not use the ceramic bearings on your Shimano cage?
As many of us can't afford Dura ace, it would be nice if gcn used an affordable component. I actually use 105, but having taken apart entry level equipment when repairing friends bikes, they may have bushes instead of bearings.
Math 101 with Alejandro 👌
Thanks Timburt!
Nerdy enough to like watching you pull things apart. Not nerdy enough to try. I mean if you get it wrong then that says it all!
Alejandro, did you stop and ask yourself why Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo do not offer OSPW’s? If they were of any value, wouldn’t the component manufacturers build them into their group sets?
I have a question, a 12 speed groupset is not cheap and just the rear mech alone is going to cost a little. So why aren't the original pully wheels actually really good.
It does seem strange that you would spend a lot of money on a very expensive group set and a cheap up group would actually improve it. Or does the upgrade just make you think it's better, because you spent some money.
Exact same thoughts. Except for the TT days when you see Ceramic Speed, and not fly by night Amazon brands, the pro peloton runs the stock jockey wheels.
The original pulley wheels are actually really good. The spin test in this video is meaningless. And further, "really good" can be measured on multiple vectors. Shimano (and other component makers) are balancing weight, performance, and longevity. Aftermarket generally sacrifices at least one of those.
Just keep your original configuration. There's nothing wrong with it
Dura Ace replaced by Amazon 😮
Agreed. Given the minimal cost involved Shimano would be using something similar if there was any real benefit. That's not to say that a fully engineered version at 30x the cost wouldn't benefit but that is a different comparison.
I know. Imagine replacing Dura Ace quality with that cheap low grade rubbish 🤦♂️
LOL those anodized red pulley wheels would look right at home on my bike, with its red anodized bits on the handgrips and pedals, but seeing its a hybrid 8 speed with an altus derailleur I think I will just leave it alone.
Good one there, Sam
I have the same aluminium ceramic pulley wheels but is 11t able to fit on my 12 speed pulley on stock cage without any issue. Maybe 13t is bigger and not able to fit on the stock cage.
I tried to put on 10 sp variants of these, with no success. They did seem to fit, but somehow the chain didn't spin through the system very well. I didn't dwell on it and regreased and reinstalled the old ones, no matter how knackered they look.
With the large bottom pulley wheel the chain deflection angle at the top pulley increases thus negating the angle reduction from the lower! So marketing BS.?😅
I don’t change them from standard but I do the maintenance 2X per year.
What would happen if you use wax as a lubricant ( as like chain wax lubricants') instead of the heavy and light lubes he used.
were they already pre-cleaned prior to the video as there appeared to be very little dirt inside?
I think they were new, he was only cleaning out the grease.
What happened to the muc off sponsorship? Could have used their degreaser and oil.
6:23 Daddy, thank you for making me a fidget spinner!
Prefer this style of presentation, over regurgitation of unverified "independent" watt data aka Snake oil.
Nice segment. Just cleaning the thing and the bearing is marginal gain.
Can anyone tell me what bearings are in the rollers of a Shimano Dura-Ace derailleur?
Unnecessary, since this gives you almost 0 gains in terms of raw watts. The weight of these pulley wheels are super small so the the power you need to turn them is very miniscule.
f they were such a big thing Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo would fit them as standard.
My thoughts as well.
less than 1W difference isn't "such a big thing", what are you on about?
The big jockey wheels have no to minimal effect. The chain is not on any load when going over the jockey wheels. it is the bearing that can cause some load. The only benefit of larger jockey wheels is that they rotate slower and give less strain on the bearings.
@@TiagoMorbusSa I think that was the point
@@discbrakefan that is indeed the point of the video, not Ebike Scrapper's point.
Helloooo Hambini fans👋🏼
For < 1W, I would much rather keep grease in my pulley wheels and not have to disassemble, clean and re-lube them every few weeks!
Why not just get some longer screws and try the aftermarket pulley wheels?
Testing bearing efficiency by feel?🤔🤨 Is Ollie on vacation?
Nice fidget spinners 😂
The idea that larger jockey wheels reduce articulation and therefore friction, does not make a huge amount sense because there will be a greater number of articulated links and the chain itself needs to be longer. Think about it 🤔, the difference must be tiny.
I changed the standard small cogs from old Deore to little bit larger and shifting become smoover🤔
Thanks Arndt and crew...it's good to see you making the same mistakes we all do ! I guess Ozzie needs to work on your software ?
Just file the covers for those ceramic pulleys wheels. You will also save a whooping extra gram.
People get OSPW and don't clean their drivetrain for weeks. 2 watts of marginal gains and 10 watts of losses.
cheap oversized RD pulley hack: swap your road RD pulley using MTB ones. longer cage too.
is it work? yes. work perfectly? well......
Cleaning the grease from your headset and lubing it with light oil will make it spin a lot faster.
Marginal losses?
Chains bending, well I never, who would have thought that was meant to happen. This is not sponsored by Silca by any chance.
GCN would never do that !!! Seams the Silca one is better. He said so.
every video has a sponsor. just that GCN are rarely upfront about it
@@zzhughesd I used to believe that thicker oils would protect better, thanks for setting me straight on that. Switching my car to run on machine oil, thing is going to fly!
Do people really think that Shimano / Sram are stupid enough to exclude OSPW's from their line-up if there was any performance gain from it, whatsoever? They designed the bloody deraileurs, the no. of teeth on the pulley wheels are not random. Not to mention alloy pulley wheels are loud as hell.
#AskGCNTech Is it possible to change bearings with same jockey wheels outer? Was wondering if make a video too
is there any everdance that giant wheels only reduce the overall weight of the wallet for no good reason and benefit only the manufacturers
Do English speakers realise that 'abbreviations' with a W are rarely shorter than the actual words? It' literally the same amount of syllables in this case.
I guess you could if you wanted, fit new ones for every important ride.
I mean, if the ride is really "important", do you want to be using a cheapo jockey wheel?
Just keep the original ones clean and it will save some weight anyway. The anxiety over pulley wheels weights 250grams at least😂
Abec bearings would make them spin super fast
For campagnolo users they offer ceramic official pulley wheels with traditional play on upper one. Cult
Why not just buy ceramic bearings n put it in the stock pulley wheel?
Q: Budget Derailleur Jockey Wheel HACK - Does It Work?!
Alex from GCN: Dunno mate (after 11 minutes of waffle and 0 testing)