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Umineko Chiru explained - Against the official explanation - Part 1
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- Опубліковано 27 кві 2020
- DISCLAIMER:
This is NOT my video, nor my original idea! It is a reupload from UA-camr "KnownNoMore", who deleted all his content a while ago! I just want to give you people the opportunity, to experience and appreciate this amazing work. I had to lay an atrocious filter over the longer Anime-Scenes, due to copyright-issues.
The chapel actually being locked can be explained by the use of small bombs hidden in the food.
@@Le_Pete are you familiar with the concept of a joke
@@Le_Pete you dummy
Chapel was not locked at all. Servants assumed it was locked. Rosa made it look it was locked. And it was unlocked by rosa
They don't understand the beauty of small bombs, sad
@@Le_Pete blue truth is not real truth. It’s just implied truths that are assumed true if that are not eventually addressed by red truth, which is actual objective truth.
This becomes even funnier with the Tea Party of Umineko Saku revealing that Natsuhi's design was actually a scrapped Beatrice design. Natsuhitrice when?
The theory that Natsuhi could be guilty may be true in the line of Umineko Mon, and I don't believe that in Saku, simply that Beatrice used Natsuhi's piece to make her the closest thing to herself since a point of magical view nothing else, however in the fifth game from the visual novel Bernkastel claims that Natsuhi is the culprit and her theory may be based on the Umineko Mon's line.
0:00 Intro
2:16 The Official Explanation
10:15 KnownNoMore's Alternate Theory
11:45 Table of Contents
14:44 Chapter 1 - Disproving the ShKanon Theory
16:30 1) The "Even if you do join us - there are 17 people" Statement
30:06 2) Solving the Logic Error without the ShKanon Theory
54:30 3) Shannon and Kanon never appear in front of Battler at the same time
01:00:25 4) The Furniture's battle of love (The Incompleteness of Souls)
01:02:37 Chapter 2 - The Fictional Yasu Theory
01:37:16 Chapter 3 - Shannon = Beatrice vs Rosa = Beatrice
Evidence against Shannon being Beatrice
01:38:58 1) Conflicting Red Truth
01:44:51 2) Maria's Testimony (The Golem Argument)
01:47:57 3) Shannon's Tattoo
Evidence that Rosa is Beatrice
01:51:20 1) Eva's escape to Kuwadorian in Episode III and Eva's diary containing the truth
02:05:17 2) Beatrice appearing to Maria outside of Rokkenjima
02:10:12 3) Beatrice's inability to revive Sakutaro
02:11:30 4) Rosa is already regarded as a witch
02:12:31 5) Maria's ''split personality'' - like behavior
02:13:16 6) Maria's black magic interests
02:14:52 7) Rosa's connection to Gaap
02:16:26 8) Maria surviving the parlor murder in Episode I, surviving until the end of Episode II and being poisoned in Episode IV
02:19:11 9) The Halloween candy trick
02:22:01 10) Rosa's involvement in the second game
02:30:14 11) Rosa using the term ''Furniture''
02:32:14 12) A drunk and emotional Battler getting confronted by Beatrice (Ending of Episode II)
02:38:07 Outro
Thanks for reuploading this. No matter what anyone thinks about the theory, it would be a damn shame to have this expertly done analysis lost forever.
No matter how shabby this truth is, no one has the right to trample on it.
I gotta appreciate just how brilliant an explanation for the final 17/18 people truths are. Interpreting it as Erika (the meta character) exclaiming that she is the 18th human, and having Battler respond with "Even if you do join us [here in the meta world], there are only 17 people [in reality]" just works too well. Especially since it's that statement which finally kills Erika. I don't think it's what the intention was, but that is still some masterful red truth handling.
Such a shame the original videos were deleted, Ive never seen an analysis as thorough as this and I cant even imagine how much effort mustve had to be put into it. Thanks for giving people an opportunity to see it!
I remember watching this and thinking ‘hmm, I personally don’t agree’ but I also remember thinking ‘damn, this man really thought this through, I can appreciate that’.
Shkanontrice is false
IchibanOjousama Gohdatrice is true
@@theczman007 Moon-chan is the one truth.
@@theczman007 nanjotrice is the only truth
@@redtruth121okonogitrice is the single truth
Me 10 minutes in: This guy is crazy
Me 1 hour in: This guy has a good point...
Let him cook
15 minutes in and the guy has already made some hella bold claims. Outlined 12 whole chapters (4 more than Ryukishi) and says he can explain it with just three culprits instead of the entire board being bribed.
What a fucking legend. I wish I was smart enough to solve the logic puzzle with so few pieces.
This is gonna be a ride.
Damn dude thanks for the reupload this brings me back.
You are welcome.
@@Xelebri Any chance of a reupload of #2 in this series? This has me considering rereading the entire thing!
It's my birthday party and I get to decide what we watch.
gotta replay the game with this in mind thanks for giving me a reason to replay this masterpiece
I love how the moment contradiction arises in my head you fix it like "Battler never saw Shannon and Kanon together" "how can he solve closed room in ep5 and ep6?" and you proceed to solve them well made video
Thank you so much Ior reuploading this, it's a very fun listen.
I love this video ngl,like i come back to it every once in a while when i just need someone talking about random stuff
For anyone familiar with the literary theory of the "Death of the Author", the idea of ignoring what Ryukishi07 says in interviews or anything else outside of the text of the actual novels is nothing outrageous or weird at all but the correct way to look at the story.
Considering that Beato is the author of the fantasy explanations of the gameboard, and is the main antagonist for a big part of the story, yeah it's a fair interpretation.
like Battler said in EP5 i can't disprove your truth but i can present the new possibility that there is another truth
basically if you present the truth that does not contradict Knox rules and red truth your interpretation is just as valid as Ryukishi's
"Death of the Author" is for coward who can't accept the truth
@@user-qd9rg3wy2n Come to think of it doesn't Yasu violate the Knox rules?
@@rjmax3311 can't say for sure don't remember details and details are important there but it is such a complex story who knows?
To this day, KnowNoMore's videos are the most brilliant analysis of Umineko I have ever seen. He skillfully manages to put all the pieces together in a logical and coherent way, creating a much more rational and satisfying solution than the original one. Even if you disagree with his conclusions, it's impossible not to see his passion for Umineko and the mystery genre itself. Over the course of so many years I have seen many people say that he's just an arrogant person who was unable to see the beauty and "love" in Shkanontrice, but I do not agree in the slightest. On the contrary, I think the people who have not fully grasped the spirit of the story are the ones who belittle the effort of other fans in creating intelligent theories as they look for the truth. Passively accepting what you are told and looking down on those who do not do the same is literally the opposite of what this story is about. Then again my favorite character is Erika, who is constantly searching for the ultimate truth and is so ruthless she's accused of not being able to understand love, so I guess I must also be unable to see the heart lol
This theory has been confirmed in Umineko Golden Fantasia.
I won't lie, at first I watched his videos mostly because they were a decent alternate explanation compared to a very stupid "official" explanation that a) relies too much in twisting the meaning of words b) forces suspension of disbelief too much regarding the idiocy of nearly everyone involved (and "without love it cannot be seen" isn't a poetic excuse for stupidity) and c) completely assassinates characters like Kanon and Kumasawa. Nowadays, I can see that he got some things wrong (as will everyone since the story is meant as a riddle without a definitive answer), like his incessant praise of Ryukishi when we knew he was deeply afflicted by his friend's death and Land's cancellation indicating the story did end messed up in some ways, and him believing EP2 was the "prime", when Will states in EP7 that Beatrice "always die without anyone ever understanding her", which shouldn't be possible in EP2 since Battler was told and understood everything about her.
Nevertheless, his is a very good and detailed theory, which might be the truth (the manga is something that came after the fact, and it brought more inconsistencies with it, especially regarding Genji directly killing people himself when it's stated he is no killer).
@@brtruev1710 I agree with your points. My issue with Rosatrice is exactly the fact KNM used to believe Ryuukishi could be willing/able to deceive the reader to that degree. I think the most logical explanation is simply that he screwed up, either for personal reasons (BT's death definitely had a huge impact on him) or because the way he wanted to implement Shkanontrice just didn't fit with all the other elements. He's a good writer, but absolutely not perfect. Well, I get that 10+ years ago it was probably easier to believe in an hypothetical deception that accepting the mess that Shkanontrice brought to the story...
in Umineko Golden has been confirmed this theory.
@@norton7954 Golden Fantasia, you mean? I noticed there are quite a few moments where Rosa and George are paired up, but that alone isn't much. What scene would confirm Rosatrice?
I swear if somehow ryukishi plans on making umineko gou with these theories disproving shkanontrice I will swallow small bombs with candy, drink lighter fluid and then ignite it.
made me laugh out loud
I think that honestly each arc is a possibility of what happened on Rokkenjima, ie. None of the games are "exactly" what happened, but what Battler or Ange thinks happened on that day. The simplest answer to Umineko's mystery is that one of the Aunts (Rosa, Natsuhi, or Eva) is the culprit, it just depends on which arc is the "truth", which is why the red truths actually exist. The story isn't meant to be taken as a multiple arc, rather as one large story.
What? Isnt it confirmed that the killers were Battlers parents?
@@zzzy1934 Hm, I don't think the "single truth" (i.e. the true version of events written in Eva's diary) was ever explicitly stated to the reader. The version of events shown to Ange and Lion in the theater was only the worst fragment that Bernkastel could find, and her red statement confirming its veracity was cut off by Ange's scream and basically proves nothing. It could well be the case, but IIRC I don't remember anything explicitly saying so. Thematically, though, I think was a good move to not show us the truth that Ange read in the diary.
@@Daminvar i dont know if you've read the manga but the truth is told there. The manga gives more answers in the end while the VN doesn't actually explain it
@@zzzy1934 The manga is something created after the fact, which generates discussion to this day because most of its solutions don't make sense.
Also EP7 Tea Party can't be the truth because:
1- Will was about to destroy that gameboard since it explicitly violated some Van Dine rules.
2- It's not explicitly depicted as the truth (and EP8 is sus because they use Red Truth in the real world, something that's impossible because RT is a witch truth).
3- Lion is present in that board, which should be impossible since EP7 is a fictional world.
4- Shannontrice actually meets and has a heart-to-heart with Battler, which should be impossible (Will outright states Beatrice dies in every single game without anyone ever understanding her).
@@brtruev1710
1-Detective fiction rules are not authoritative over reality in general, and Van Dine’s rules are not authoritative over Beatrice’s boards in particular. (Unlike Knox’s rules which *are* authoritative over Beatrice’s boards, because she designed them that way). Will for his part is just trying to protect Ange and Lion, in my opinion.
2- Doesn’t prove anything. Personally, I just think Ryukishi felt that being explicit about it would have been boorish. Certainly doesn’t mean “it can’t be the truth” as you claim.
3- Don’t see why Lion’s presence in EP7’s main section discredits the EP7 Tea Party, which is clearly presented (by Bernkastel) as its own fragment.
4- Battler and Beatrice never meet in the EP7 Tea Party. Though EP8 seems to continue the EP7 Tea Party, and yes they meet then (and given that their meeting is derived from an implied continuation of the EP7 Tea Party, their meeting is a strange basis for you to use as a way to deny the EP7 Tea Party itself, IMO). As for Beatrice dying, she most certainly does die in that fragment, too, by throwing herself into the sea on Oct 6. Did Battler understand her? Hard to say. I don’t think she herself would have thought so, else she wouldn’t have thrown herself into the sea, or at least Battler would have been able to foresee that she would.
“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
Not only that, ryukishi literally retcons his own story in the manga
@@MiguelRamos-dh3el he does it all the time lol, he has even retconned a lot of Higurashi in the last anime. There's no reason to believe he couldn't have possibly changed some details of Umineko as well
To ve fair, Van Dine discredits Holmes a lot of times.
@@MiguelRamos-dh3elLearn the definition of a retcon.
I also thought it was weird no one noticed that Kanon and Shannon were the same person and even if you buy they are literal brother and sister people have unique scents to them and they all live under the same roof for a long duration. I do think Jessica may have noticed, her performance of Pettan might of been a hint.
Natsuhi subconsciously suspects it a little. It is noticed that she targets them with suspicion. It is suggested in the early episodes that is because of Kinzo, however, spoilers
We know Kinzo is dead, so when Natsuhi suggests Kinzo had Shannon play BEATRICE, she is really saying Shannon was pretending to be BEATRICE.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 is a little absurd.
@@norton7954 Ever heard of selective perception? People only notice things if their perception is draw to it. In fact, people can lose things right in front of their face if you primer them correctly.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 but don't realize all this time? absurd.
@@norton7954 Shannon and Kanon usually don't work at the same time on the island. Also, Kanon has only "existed" for two years, so...
Just finished reading volume 8
and this popped up in my reccomended.
Thanks youtube, i assume i'm going into a WILD ride.
"Intellectual Tapdancing" I'm going to use that.
yeah this is peak
you know what maybe this guy had a point after all
Edit (you to he):
The first explanation already fails. He got the Red Truth regarding the six deaths of the chained locked rooms wrong. It never used the word people. The Truth was, and I quote: "These six are all dead: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa!"
There was no red or whatsoever calling them people, persons or bodies regarding the "six" within the chained locked rooms from that game.
Even later when EVA-Beatrice caught Battler in her web of red truths, she mentioned 15 names and declared them all dead in red. And again she just said those 15 and not those 15 people or persons. Furthermore she named three more persons that are alive. Battler, Eva and Jessica. So we have 18 names stated in red that participated in the second game. We only come to 16+Erika if the following is given: kinzo was already dead from the start as stated in red and gold so is therefore none of the 16 bodies. We are left with 17 names. Shannon and Kanon share a body, so we get to 16. This won't be possible if they were two bodies.
It's not my explanation.
Greetings.
@@Xelebri sorry I just realised you uploaded for another person. I corrected that.
Kommst du zufällig aus Deutschland? BrummelHummel klingt so typisch deutsch 😅
@Antinomic Source yeah, it's difficult to take the english translations as 100% reliable, i think there's still room for doubt
Yeah, he is basically basing his theory on a wrong assumption. Also the corrected translation of Battler-beatrice satement is:
"Even if you do join us-" ""That makes 17 humans.""
They use "humans" for bodies
He's scrambling based on wrong assumptions.
I also think that the "definition" of bodies/people is not even a definition. Erika says:
"Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people"
She is not saying that "people = bodies" in an absolute way. She said was just making more clear her previous statement, saying that in that case only the bodies of Kanon, Battler and Erika went in.
Now, considering the revised translation, the only time that appear "people" is:
"Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim."
In this case, it is not clear that people stands for bodies. It is never been clear. Therefore I must accept only a clear definition and since we have not a clear definition of people, it's acceptable that here people stands for personalities and not for bodies.
His blue truth contradicts Battler-beatrice red truth, because in that case there would've been 18 humans if we add Erika, but they tell that there would still be 17 humans, with humans we can intend bodies.
What comes after talking about personalities is just him babbling and talking nosense, trying to scrambling and climbing on mirrors. It's useless, it's all useless.
For example, at 26:52 he said total bullshit
If only yasu remains, still one body, i.e. human, remains. He totally didn't understand the concept of personalities and clinged too much to a WRONG TRANSLATION. So this point falls completely. Later I'll argue about his next point.
@@Becix157 What's the "corrected" translation?
I've been going by the PS3 version. In which Erika says "18th human" (18人目の人間) in red, and Battler+Beatrice respond with "17 people" (17人) in red.
Erika has an additional qualifier there to emphasize that she is referring to humans, while Beatrice+Battler just say "people" the way you always do in Japanese.
But it doesn't really matter, because you can get around the problem by accepting that the red truth is contextual. It doesn't require strict adherence to certain definitions, and that's why both statements can be said in red. There are always some assumptions that should be made, but are missing, when clarifying the head count, such as "people who died before oct 4 don't count", and "Yasu and Beatrice don't count as additional people". Also crucially, it's often ambiguous which point in time a certain red truth is referring to, and so there is room for various interpretations.
I keep hearing it "Shitkanon" theory, lol
ShitCannon
And that wouldn't be incorrect lol
I just remembered something. Isn't Rosa the sibling who's knowledgeable about tea, iirc she was the one who bought Tea for Natsuhi's headache or smth during one of the early chapters. That fits as well i guess.
There's a lot of magical [and white text] scenes that support Rosatrice, as much as people claim otherwise; people just choose to ignore them. If you think about the fact that she's a designer, creating Beatrice's dress is well within her capabilities, and is almost the same style, as evidenced by her and Maria's clothing. Maria holds the black chess piece that signifies Beatrice, and Rosa is the one that chose it. Rosa's established shifts in personality already make it clear thematically that Maria views them all separately. Rosa is the only human referred to as a witch. Rosa is the only human that's given Beatrice's ''witch laugh'' even in a Battler present scene [Ch 2]. Rosa is the only human that calls the servants furniture, and in a Battler POV scene. Rosa is the only character that verbalizes the title sequence, and she does it multiple times. Rosa is the only one w/ a established motive for recreating/reviving Beatrice [her love for Maria; her legit interaction w/ original Beatrice, and killing her] ... Rosa often had dreams of becoming a witch. Rosa is the character that appears to congratulate Eva when she solves the epitaph, and it's followed by a magical scene of passing the throne, followed by a magical scene of Rosa, Eva, and Maria, with Maria wondering why Beatrice changed, and begging and talking with Beatrice [only her mother is present besides Eva] to keep her promise. I find Rosatrice infinitely complex, with much care and love; that doesn't spell anything out for you.
I almost never make those arguments because personally as long as it fits the red, I'm open to it as a possibility, but the criticism that there is no ''love'' ''themes'' or ''hints'' is just ridiculous; they are undoubtedly there.
@@TheGreatDetectiveKnows Even if Rosa is Beatrice, that doesn't mean she's good! I understand that she suffered a lot when she was young , and she was treated badly by her siblings, but killing your grandchildren for their parents' sins is outrageous. In Golden Fantasia, when you play with Rosa and Battler after killing them all, she shot Battler, she shouts for Beatrice to come and get her and Maria off the island, but Kuwadorian Beatrice has not risen, no one came to save them. Rosa started screaming, and told Maria to swim, to leave the island, Maria drowned, and Rosa died on the island. Rosa is really the craziest character in Umineko no naku, it makes sense why people got angry when that guy proved that Rosa is Beatrice, I understand them. After Rosa was abandoned by her husband, she tried to find a new boyfriend, she went out with many men, but because of Maria, she failed to marry one, she is not much different from a prostitute, in anime, when Maria was alone and called her, Rosa was with an individual on a vacation, she certainly slept with him, she slept with many men.
@@TheGreatDetectiveKnows I completely agree with your analysis and I love seeing more people who appreciate this theory.
Also Rosa is very into Battler. She acts the most surprised when he returns, stops often to talk with him in EP1 and outright flirts with him in EP2 and EP5.
Another thing that he also talks about in the video and I also realized and found weird is how Rosa is the only one besides Shanon that shows sadness when they heard that Battler left the family, is specially weird given that Rosa is the youngest of the siblings having to take care of her job and her child without a father to help her, sounds strange that she has time to be worried about someone else, I feel like if you wanted to show sadness from someone other than Shanon, Hideyoshi or Natsuhi fitted that role better but this is just circumstantial evidence at best of course.
I finished Umineko recently. While a lot of plot points might have gone over my head, the whole theme is so schizophrenic that I think the author's main intention was to have fun with the whole thing by writing alongside the theories. Seeing all the theories people made while also referencing them as forgeries, I imagine he'd have feedback over what were the most popular interpretations. He struck me as someone who'd choose the best way to surprise everyone, therefore preferring to improvise with the story along the way in a manner that confuses the most people and brings more discussion about the story, feeding into the theme of forgeries at the meta level. Choosing this approach instead of planning everything in advance makes the story much more interesting at the expense of making everything more convoluted and harder to tie together. In short, I think he took a risk to have plot holes for the sake of reader engagement and I'd totally cut him some slack for it.
I think the closest thing to the "real truth" is whatever theory is the one that ties most neatly with the whole narrative, even if there's a small plot hole somewhere. I find that the beauty of it is that the story is vague enough that there's merit to all these theories, and considering the game's themes, it looks like the author's main intention was to create context in real life (videos like these and the endless discussions) for the forgeries/fragments mentioned in the novel.
I think the anger from the community(specially in japan)comes from the answer being extremely vague in the murders, how they were done and that one person is allowed to have two personalities without affecting the red truth.I dont think people would have cared that much about them being vague if at the end of episode 5 ryukishi didnt literally write to keep searching for answers and say that the murders were definitely solvable.When I finished Umineko i thought something similar to you so after a while I decided to reread the questions arcs to see if I could catch the clues for Skanontrice, the first time I read the question arcs I thought it was so painfully obvious that Kanon and Shannon were accomplices if not the culprits so I simply took that as a red herring going into the answer arcs.There is definitely some pretty massive evidence that Shannon=Kannon in the question arcs but still to this day I think he was going to make the skanontrice theory a red herring but changed his mind in episode 4 or episode 5,even though I disliked the murderer explanation I still thought that the message of the story was very compelling and well thought.However,because of the massive backlash in Japan Ryukishi felt forced to write the actual solutions in the Umineko manga,the point of having such vague anwers was as you said to have more than one possible explanation and theories,so writing the actual answers as red truths in the manga not only made people that didnt believe in skanontrice mad, it also damaged the overall message of Umineko.Even if I really like Umineko I have to say that its solution is not the main reason im fond of it.
@@isaacfernandez2745 I agree with you, I also really like Umineko for its themes and characterization (I'm deeply fond of Erika especially). However, the official explanation annoys me so, so much, it's ridiculously disappointing.
@@Sry342 100% agree with the characterization part but be honest, would you recommend anyone to read Umineko if the official explanation ends up being said in red? I wouldn't even tho the characters are amazing but the themes and story are just ok imo specially if the official explanation is true. I believe the mystery mixed with the characters interactions are what people enjoyed the most out of Umineko, I myself was hoping for the twist until the very end (I suspected of Kanon=Shanon since the first novel) if the truth is the official explanation the mystery part is one of the worst I have ever seen
@@kakoXIII I think the themes are the best part overall but ryukishi just made everything fit so badly at the end,for example the vn says that its okay to not reveal who the killers are because of the reasons that they are already dead so it doesnt matter, that only their relatives would get the bad end of it and that its better inside the catbox because nobody can be guilty,when the obvious answer and following the same logic is to reveal only the killers because now you cant set the guilt on the other 14 people.Its literally worse to not reveal the killers,everyones relatives would still have the thought that someone in their family could be a murderer.The problem is that the vn is just so blunt with this being the bad path that I wonder if ryukishi actually forgot about the themes at the very end.There a lot more problems but I think the themes are very good up until the last part where he either messes up or he makes a huge misdirect with the audience(by the official explanation not being true), I like Ryukishi but I think that he just fucked his story near the end.Regarding the mystery part, yeah I think narratively Shannon and Kannon are the only possible culprits.Episode 1 to 4 are just so biased towards their narrative that you could guess who the culprits are by the second episode,I personally thought that was why it needed to be a red herring.Whenever I see threads of new readers asking if the mystery is actually solvable I get a little mad because people tell them that it is when the reality is that you can GUESS who the culprit is but im pretty sure its almost impossible to get to the howdunnit.
@@kakoXIII I get what you mean. I've always found it hard to recommend this series to anyone, in fact I've even told a friend to NOT read it one time lol. I consider myself a fan because overall I've enjoyed it, but I'd be lying if I said the official explanation didn't disappoint me massively. If the concept itself (someone pretending to be two different people) could have been acceptable, the way it's written, how the entire situation is presented, everything is so absurd that you just can't believe something like that could unironically happen. It's ridiculous how a writer like Ryuukishi, who has shown to be able to write complex stories and characters, went with such a dumb solution. He can also be quite contradictory in how red statements are supposed to be interpreted and barely follows his own rules, which irritated me.
But how do you explain Shannon not being capable of love? That's straight from the novel, to say it's status is extrapolating and is not what Shannon suggests, after this analyst says we should be literal when he says Beatrice and Shannon are separate people based on Beatrice's red truth to Battler. (Be consistent in your own logic!) Also, the three-way lover duel doesn't then make sense. The novel never states that Beatrice too would die as she forfeits, only Kanon since he lost in the gun duel. The Rosatrice theory is kinda cogent but it too has way too many holes. And anyone who has to invoke 'burden of proof' like this guy to repudiate defending his theory is suspect. Besides, how do you explain Rosa and Beatrice being BOTH IN THE SAME ROOM SIMULTANEOUSLY AS TWO SEPARATE PEOPLE in the Episode 7 tea party when Rosa is killed by Kyrie in the VIP room? Bernkastel clearly states in red that that scenario is a possible truth. That alone kills this theory. George as a killer makes no real sense and he doesn't have a strong enough motive. Also, this analyst's idea that it's very unlikely that the baby Lion survived the cliff fall is ridiculous as the baby did according to the novel itself. This is confirmation bias and silly to suggest since the whole novel revolves around unlikely things occurring. The analyst's explanation of Erika not being the "18th human" when Battler says there were "17 people" in red is patently fallacious, because the analyst showed earlier in red that "person" means "a body." Thus, by hus own reasoning, this person could be living or dead, which blasts a hole in his idea that Erika can't be the 18th person, since even if dead she would still have a body and would still be a person! Frankly I don't think either Shkanon or Rosatrice are entirely correct, though there is merit to both, and though I definitely think Rosa's role is huge in Umineko and the novel suspiciously glazes over it.
I guess the true answer is a witch.
@@rjmax3311 don't stop thinking
even more hilariously, will outright says that there must be a method to get multiple accomplices in Ep7, so this theory is double-bunk
@@rjmax3311 magic is real
Thank you, The Ultimate Mario Fan [TUMF]. I love you.
Never really cared for this theory but I always thought the amount of effort put into it was really cool, though it attracts a lot of people who simply just ''hate'' Umineko's narrative unfortunately, I've no clue why those people stick around in the first place. Umineko at the end of the day is about building a happy narrative for yourself while adhering to the things you can't change and the effect fiction can have on people's lives and I'll always adore it for that.
You know, I have to give this part at least credit, haven't watched the rest yet, for being well-thought out and interesting. That being said, the bizarre hostility towards people who believe in the Shakanontrice Explanation is borderline comical. Like this video gives a weird vibe of like "if you believe in Shakanontrice you're delusional" or something, like there's a huge swathe of people who will defend Shakanontrice tooth and nail.
I actually found a slight hole in his theory.
It’s very small but it makes things interesting.
Who gave Maria the umbrella in the first episode?
Maria said it was Beatrice. And as confirmed in episode 7 Maria identifies Beatrice by actions.
So if his theory is correct, then-
Rosa found Maria-Gave her the umbrella-Left her alone again-Acted in front of the other cousins as if she was still looking for Maria.
The thing that makes this a bit more of a hole in the theory is this wasn’t planned by Rosa at all.
(Keep in mind Maria was looking for the rose in episode 1 and no one besides the other cousins knew about this.)
Not to mention why would she mention the umbrella at all during dinner?
Making the other believe in magic isn’t a goal established at all since atleast in this theory the only goal established by Rosa is to kill everyone according to the epitaph for a miracle to occur.
Anyways to make a TLDR
Episode one scenes revolving around Maria’s rose and the umbrella make things shaky for this theory a bit.
@@demonofsadism7915 Also, Kanon would have to have walked through the garden to get to the guesthouse.
Weird vibe is a vague statement, but there's a lot of dismissiveness and even hostility towards those who don't believe in Shkanon or go out of there way to present alternate theories. It isn't hard to imagine how someone could develop some hostility. KNK's hostility isn't expressed in an insulting way either. He simply does his best to disprove Shkanon.
I'm unsure if you're new in the community but try critiquing shkanontrice; no matter how valid or logical the criticism, you'll get brutally insulted, attacked, and banished from the community as a goat that has no love; being called transphobic is extremely common as well.
And shkanontrice supporters have had this reputation for years now. It's a huge cult that refuse to acknowledge any contradicting information. And that if you don't believe in their theory, you didn't understand Umineko, etc etc etc...
So I'm not surprised if KNM got immensely shit on by the fanbase before deciding to make this video.
And BTW in the original video, that's what the comment section was: a swathe defending shkanontrice tooth and nail, sending threats, etc.
The reason you don't see as much conflict these days is because everyone that found fault with the shkanon explanation got kicked out of the fanbase - so now the fanbase is an echo-chamber regurgitating the same quotes and phrases.
@@TheGreatDetectiveKnows Yeesh. Seems kind of against the spirit of Umineko to be that defensive about it. I personally subscribe to Shakanontrice, at least at the moment, but alternate theories are literally encouraged by the text itself. The entire story has an overarching message about the nature and truth and things like that, and going against the official explanation seems like the sort of thing Ryukishi himself would encourage. It's bizarre to be defensive about it.
just started this video but as for the "official" explanation (and any others) from what i remember everything was battler trying to remember who he was and what happened on that island. this series uses alot of unreliable narration to confuse us and considering almost all of it happens in battler's head (while he is working through amnesia) very little can be trusted as to what happened each game.
My theory is that none of it fucking matters as long as my girl Ange lives a happy life.
I’m always happy to hear a Dutch speaker talk about things that I like. It’s rare to find someone in my country that has read Umineko
He is from Netherlands.
Thanks for the reupload
So I'd this just battle in his coma trying to absolve himself for surviving a massacre he was apart of?
I wish this theory was true, its 100% better than the shit we got with Yasu/Shannon/Kanon/beatrice being the same person with ridiculous motivations..just bizarre
You missed the entire point of Umineko
In an alternative line can be true.
@@avoidingissues how is one nigga masquerading as three people and everyone in the story being fine with it for some reason anything but stupid?
is that the point of umineko?
Until there's a red truth denying this theory, it lives in perfect unison with the ''official'' explanation... given that it has no logical contradictions.
The very fact that the official explanation isn't a unique explanation means that as many truths as you can imagine exist.
Shkanon is just a possible explanation given by the authority: the author; it's no different from the Ch 5 trial, where the narrative explanation was Natsuhi; it doesn't have to be necessarily true in order to be accepted as such.
@@TheGreatDetectiveKnows Even thought I belive you are completly right about "Not beliving the manga answer just because a authority said belive it", I would like to argue about the point of "Rosatrice doesn't have logical contradictions" oh boy, Rosatrice trully is a spiral of contradictions.
1_Legend of the Golden Witch
It *needs* Kanon to be a culprit, not a acomplice, not a innocent, a culprit.
The second twilight only would work with a devils proof of "maybe there is a way to make the magic circle that we don't know of in that short spam of time", but that contradicts Knox since we actually need clues for that.
2_The Logic Error
The story *needs* it to be an actual important trick that shows the reader a important aspect of Beatrice, since the point of the trick is showing what a "true witch" is, and the argument of "Oh but in meta world the fight was with gun" is completly stupid, since we literally lack of actual evidence to prove that in the gameboard Erika ever used a gun.
3_Many point I won't discuss over a UA-cam commentary
Probably in a very distant future I will give my own point of view about the mistery's in Umineko, I have read the 8 Episodes (more than once), Saku, Golden Fantasia, The goddamn Erikatrice Manifesto, currently waching the Rosatrice videos (since 4 parts of 2 hours each is to much even for me) and constanly asking opinions different than mine, so atleast I hope to get into a really good answer at the end of the road.
Love how polite the narrator is at 1:42:20
that made me laugh ngl
Kind of heartwarming to see a comment section with a relative amount of criticism against Shkanon 🤣 I mean, not that it changes the official solution, but good to see I'm not the only one who didn't like it.
Something that's really funny is that KNM ended up predicting some of the deceptions R07 used in order to continue the Shkanontrice nonsense:
"EP5 is a prank" - That's exactly the solution Erika gives in the EP8 manga, despite already being proven it's impossible and implausible to begin with.
"Shannon was standing behind Erika so she didn't actually see her" - Erika states this almost verbatim in the same sequence, never mind Shannon being the one who brought her to the parlor, nor that she interacted with both Shannon and Kanon at the same time, multiple times, in fact.
"Yasu is, actually, Sayo's surname" - Confession of the Golden Witch states that - irrelevant since Shannon started as Yasu's imaginary friend in EP7 with a slightly different personality, no one ever acknowledging her and then, suddenly, becomes the POV character for the remainder of the Episode.
"Furniture has different meanings depending on the person who uses it" - EP8 manga states that Genji uses it in a different sense than Shannon/Kanon - and Confession deals with Sayo's body supposedly not maturing as it should - irrelevant because most of EP2's beginning makes it clear it's about social status instead of sexual handicaps.
"The golem (Gollum) argument" - EP7 manga states it's how it worked, never mind how stupid it is.
Not to mention how, in the manga, Genji suddenly becomes a killer (he's the one who killed Nanjo and Kumasawa in EP2 and helped Shannon kill the family members in EP4, despite being shown as one of the first to be killed). It's funny how people can be so predictable when trying to deceive.
"EP5 is a prank" - It was used as a pretence to trick and double-cross everyone and blackmailing Natsuhi. However, it can be shown that Erika knew Natsuhi lied about Kinzo's death and Battler's solution how Kinzo escaped from the study doesn't work.
"Shannon was standing behind Erika so she didn't actually see her" - There are dialogues which included Kanon,Shannon and Erika (despite not being in the same 'screen'). The most notable one is Erika asked Kanon (and Shannon) to close the door. In the study and before the guest room are other nice examples of 'changing the focus'. This is just a malicious writing trick.
"Yasu is, actually, Sayo's surname" - Confession of the Golden Witch could be another forgery.
"Not to mention how, in the manga, Genji suddenly becomes a killer" - I think it doesn't make sense in context because it requires Godha's loyality, but here they have told him every death is fake and I don't think Godha wouldn't try to play along after spreading confusion with the special guest.
@@DonTollpatschi I can't get behind EP5 being a prank for several reasons.
-Too over the top for a prank. EP3 and EP7 showed that, whenever the gold is found, Kinzo's death status is irrelevant. When, in EP5, there's a big deal about it, to the point Battler is forced to use the gold truth to prove his point.
-Krauss and Natsuhi were already defeated anyway and in a weak position. Sure enough, in EP7, they are the first to go because of that.
-Quite frankly, the family had better things to do than prank someone after the gold was found.
-Everyone still died at the end, before the game even began. Stating that it was a double-crossing equals stating Beato doesn't keep her promises, which is denied in red in EP2. It strongly indicates there's another murderer around who doesn't care about the epitaph.
@@brtruev1710 Well, it's hard to say it's a literal prank for obvious reasons. I think it's ok to say the cousins agreed to play a prank after Rosa asked them. Especially Jessica would have felt it was a good time to take revenge against Erika. I feel the manga was wrong about Krauss agreeing with the prank (against Erika); you are right about that. Imo it makes more sense he was attacked after the call was made in the evening.
"Quite frankly, the family had better things to do than prank someone after the gold was found." Could you be more accurate about that? They couldn't agree with each other because Krauss and Natsuhi said it was Kinzo's decision.
"Everyone still died at the end, before the game even began. Stating that it was a double-crossing equals stating Beato doesn't keep her promises, which is denied in red in EP2. It strongly indicates there's another murderer around who doesn't care about the epitaph." There was no promise, and keeping a promise she didn't make or making promises aren't Beatrice's goals. However, the killings and forcing Natsuhi's confession could be a set-up for the real goal - EP5 has an open end.
@@DonTollpatschi Krauss being an accomplice in both EP1 and EP5 sounds false, since he was one of the first victims in both. Also, regarding the whole "accomplice" stuff, one of the many reasons Shkanon was never a satisfactory theory is that it involves lots of accomplices without foreshadowing, for flimsy motives and it's unrealistic a lot of accomplices didn't simply overpowered the culprit by themselves (Kanon couldn't lift bags of fertilizer by himself, yet he could hang Gohda, who's such a big and strong guy?).
Speaking of which, I'd love a theory in which Nanjo wasn't an accomplice, but there's no way around it, which is unfortunate because it reduces Nanjo's character as the accomplice no matter if it's Shkanon or Rosa/George. But still, having Genji and Kumasawa as accomplice (the former being an outright killer as shown in EP2 and EP4 and the latter actually being a money-grub) doesn't make sense as well.
As for the promise, yes, there was a promise. Beatrice outright states in red that she keeps her word and the moment someone solves the epitaph, the murders stop, That goes all the way to EP1 and her letter, plus Confession states she wanted someone to stop her. So there was a promise to stop everything if the epitaph was solved, yet EP3, EP5 and EP7 showed the murders still occur.
@@brtruev1710 Yep, Nanjo wasn't an exeption of being an accomplice.
There is a little problem with your thinking about the promise. First, the letter didn't appeared in EP5 to announce the game so Beatrice has no responsibility about this. It's only called out by Levianthan and Beatrice. Second, I think it's a misconception of the survivors who thought the "interest" Beatrice was taking are the lifes of the sacrifices (and she differentiate between interests and sacrifices). If you read Beatrice's clause you can see why it's not correct: she isn't speaking of the lifes because she cannot keep her promise to return them all. The letter in the previous games is just a friendly warning.
Amazing nostalgic video, remember watching this years back. Do you happen to have the anime explanation as well? I tried downloading the videos online but the links are missing. Could I get them from you as well? I absolutely adore this theory and live by it lmao Umineko is my top fav anime
Guess everyone has a memory with this vid except me
When did this vid come out?
I can't believe this guy is fucking dutch
Is from Netherlands.
Even if this theory makes no real sense to me, I'm intrigued by the fact that Shannon and Kanon are shown in Lion's world, someone could give me an explanation in line with the official? (excluding a poetic license by the author)
In the 7th novel, it's shown us a magical world, that's why Lion and Kanon/Shanon, eventhough they're the same person in a world of reality, they are 2 individuals, the Yasu that Natushi rejected and the Yasu that Natsuhi didn't reject.
BERNKASTEL is mixing fragments together so all the clues will be in the Chapel.
In Umineko Kotae can be true that theory.
Will outright states it's a mix of different fragments, hence why Lion exists alongside Shannon and Kanon, plus why Maria and Jessica has memories from the other worlds.
2:15:50 You could also see the incomplete dress as a scrapped or ongoing fashion prototipe, reminds me of how dresses are constructed over a dummy.
When your school says make a PowerPoint about what you want this gonna turn up with this giant of a presentation
1:47:02 voice acting 10/10 hollywood should hire him xDDDD
I came to the conclusion that Shkannontrice is fake way before finding this video; until the very end of Umineko I was still expecting a plot twist making sense. Here are the contradictions I found, some not mentioned in this video:
Let's start with the obvious, multiple personality bullshit:
-A made up personality doesn't count as a person. That would be a delusion, and the red truth wouldn't confirm that, just like it made Kinzou disappear once we know he died. That vague definition of person/human came out of nowhere, was never hinted in the story ever, and Battler even confirmed in red truth that the number of people=number of bodies. We are given no reason to suddenly count aliases as people: "Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!", "All people can only use their own names!!"
-"Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES!" Except the the circumstantial evidence of Shannon and Kanon not together in front of Battler, no such hint was given in the first 4 games. (Not a red truth:) "No criminal should be credited with exceptional powers of disguise unless we have had fair warning that he or she was accustomed to making up for the stage." We're not told this until Ep7.
-"No one else can go by Kanon's name! A different person can't claim that as their name!"... What else do I have to say?
Even if we accept the definition of people as personality/after-ego, the math doesn't add up:
-Assuming Yasu "kills" the Yasu personality in his head, leaving only the "Kanon" and "Shannon" behind. Thus Yasu counts as 2 people, solving the "17 people on the island" truth, right?... But in Ep4, he appears in front of Battler as Beatrice, and says in red "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice." which could only be possible if Yasu was 3 people : Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice. And that would make more than 17 people in total... Remember: "All people can only use their own names!!", so the "Kanon" and "Shannon" personalities cannot claim "Beatrice's" name in red.
-Let's assume Yasu is only 2 people (Kanon and Shannon). Will says "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit! ...Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #11." Both Kanon and Shannon are servants: "There are five master keys, one for each servant". Who's the culprit then? Will also uses Van Dine's Rule #7 as a red truth in Bernkastel's gameboard, proving the rules apply there as well.
-EVA-Beatrice's red truths at the end of Ep3 are awful. When Nanjo and Jessica are killed, it is said in red that "Shannon is dead", "Kanon is dead", "At the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servant room". If the 2 people inside Yasu are dead, he counts as 0 people despite being alive? Nobody in their right mind would say that.
Ep7 is a lie:
-The whole thing happens in a gameboard controlled by Bernkastel, that doesn't respect the rules of the previous games, and red truth is barely used. Why the hell would you believe anything from Bernkastel?
-Beatrice was "killed" by Lion's existence, but Kanon and Shannon aren't ?... Lion is shown in the manga next to Kanon, and later next to Shannon.
-The baby who fell down the cliff was very obviously a boy: Natsuhi wouldn't believe "the man from 19 years ago" either way. Plus, assuming the baby survives, I don't see how the fall would castrate a girl without killing her. Also Yasu should have brown hair (unless he dyes his hair everyday without anyone figuring, master of disguise that he is). In other words, Yasu would look nothing like Italian Beatrice and Kuwadorian Beatrice, so why would Genji hide the boy from Kinzou ? He's into girls who look like Beatrice, Yasu's not his type lol.
People say Shkannontrice theory makes a better story and doesn't ignore the heart... Excuse me? In this theory:
-Yasu tried to get in the pants of the 3 cousins, even after learning he's from the same family.
-Yasu cruelly betrays Jessica in almost all cases: he stabs her while dressed as Kanon in Ep2. In Ep3, he uses Kanon's voice to lure her when she's blinded. In Ep4, he was holding Jessica at gunpoint, forcing her to talk about magic nonsense to Battler on the phone during her last moment. Not cool.
-If you accept "Shannon", "Kanon" (and "Beatrice", I guess) as different persons with a mind of their own, why are they taking part in the massacre again? Red truth says "The sin [...] is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice", but between Battler and Yasu. And Yasu is "dead", Shannon and Kanon are murdering their respective loved ones for "someone else" who doesn't exist anymore, that's how frail their love is. [Edit: You could say Battler sinned against Shannon when Yasu had already created his "Shannon" personality, but "Kanon" still has no motive of his own. Unless he shares the same memories/motivations/body as Shannon, bu then why would he count as "different person"? Using the same logic, Witch Maria and schoolgirl Eva could count as people too.]
Here's my blue truth : "Ryuukishi wanted to use the "2 people in 1 body" (or "Shannon and Kannon are twins") trick for an accomplice (the murder of Nanjo and Jessica in Ep3 at least), but not the main culprit. He got carried away and framed Shkannon for the whole massacre, making them the culprit and Kuwadorian Beatice's child in the process. Epic fail."
While it could be a red herring, he did use 「人」 ("human") and 「人間」 ("people") in places consistent with the Shkannon theory, and made them not appear in front of Battler together. But the red truths that apply to the culprit just don't work with Shannon or Kanon, and the two don't even look like Lion. Actually, many of the contradictions result from Shkannon being the culprit, rather than the two "sharing" one body.
My thoughts on KnownNoMore's overall theory: I am only 70% sold on the Rosatrice theory. "Kinzou is not a name, but a title" is one of the very few things that I didn't find convincing. I, however, am 200% sure the official explanation is bullshit, for the aforementioned reasons.
I also really liked KNM's explanation of Maria's perspective, as her tendency to jump off buildings and people talking in red IRL hurt my brain. The idea of Erika instantly dying on the beach in every Fragment except two made me giggle a bit. I wish KNM was still around and I could discuss with him or read his novel, I respect him for putting this theory together and almost saving Umineko's story in my mind.
And the guys who keep shitting on this theory need to be reminded of Knox's 9th.
It’s just flawed imo, if you listen to ryukishis interviews pre episode 8 he’s the type of guy that thinks his intellect is way too superior and the readers won’t think that skhanon was the solution by the end of ep 7(which by the way , people thought of since episode 2 but disregarded it because it was too ridiculous), the fan base was literally praying so when ep 8 came out it revealed that skhanon was a red herring all along.Ryukishi kept saying oh but if you know who the culprit is then you should also know the solutions and proceeded by saying that anyone that wanted answers was a brainless goat and had no love.
Like what, the most common insults to anyone that doubts the undeniable genius of ryukishi are being called goats, transphobics and that you lack love.
Speaking of love, am I the only that thinks that the Beatrice and battler relationship is bad?
Apart from the sudden change of heart on battler in episode 4,Beatrice is literally absent all of episode 5 but when the other beatrice is born in ep 6 he’s suddenly in love with her??
This is wattpad level writing, so what the vn says and correct me if I’m wrong that they are two different Beatrices and the only thing that they have in common is how they look.
So battler had to fallen in love with between ep 5 and ep 6(after finding out the truth supposedly),but how is yasu’s plan to massacre the entire family,play with Jessica and George and deceive everyone justifiable enough so that battler falls in love directly afterwards.
Beatrice gets killed,resurrected,reincarnated and retconned just to become the most insufferable character in the series imo
@@MiguelRamos-dh3el you're saying so many true things, I completely agree with your stance. I hate fans who look down on anyone who didn't find Shkanontrice good and the goat thing is just stupid. The brainless ones are the people who don't analyze what they read critically and get pissed when others form their own thoughts. And don't get me started on the "transphobia" thing lol. I also agree that Battler and Beatrice's romance was very forced and I was very confused by him suddenly falling for someone who had tortured and humiliated him (and his family) until that point. Realizing the truth about Yasu isn't enough to completely flip his entire opinion of Beato, but according to Ryuukishi and fans we're the ones who don't understand love
100% agree with your thoughts, your points are very valid. To this day I still haven't been given an answer to all these contradictions that isn't "b-but Ryuukishi said...", "but semantics...", or "you simply don't get it, you're just a loveless goat". I wonder where KNM went, it would be nice to have a discussion with him. I watched his videos around 11 years ago but I didn't have the chance to speak to him back then, sadly.
Literally just finished the vn and watched the fan vn of confession and this is exactly my feeling. I finished it all and just...wtf? Am I missing something? Honestly, especially after the whole shkanontrice reveal which I had little inkling of based on the main story, I'm so confused as to how this is considered to be a masterpiece of that's the official explanation. How does that whole explanation not negate the entire thematic message of the vn? I don't see any love or empathy in that explanation, and it just seems like a display of every character's worst qualities made to justify a story about a pitiable but truly loveless person who went on a massacre. And doesn't it contradict everything Ange learned and remembered about her family in the end? I'm hugely dissatisfied and I don't understand all the worship for this story.
The 1 knox contradicts the theory of Shannon and Kanon being the same person and Yasu comitting the crimes 😂.
Thank you for the reupload!
Rosatrice is real
I don't agree with this theory, because I think it misses the context for the 5th and 6th games - they're uses of the game board, not arguments about what could've happened on Rokkenjima - but I will say that the explanation of the 17/18 people thing as a way of establishing counterfactuals is absolutely brilliant and a wonderful piece of reasoning.
Can see It in the second part, about the 5th game and the 6th.
@@norton7954 okay, thanks, I'll keep watching
Masterpiece like i dont even agree with the theory its just entertaining
Those episode 3 "these people are dead" reds are interesting- apparently the 15 people one was de-redded in some later release... but the 6 people one wasn't. So apparently the dual identity doesn't apply to Shannon and Kanon, but to some other pair of people of which at least one is outside of the original six. P:
ok it seems i need a lot of green tea
I see it slightly differently- I think Ryukishi got cold feet partway through and clumsily changed the answer to the rather questionable Shkanontrice, leading to a lot of bizarrely stretched solutions that make it look like there's a hidden secret solution, which... I guess technically there would be, just not one he intended us to get. What exactly he chickened out of is a mystery though.
Reread the VN if you really think this. There's heavy foreshadowing since even episode 1 if you know where to look.
@@master2497 of course, in order to have the mystery story to be this good you have to have at least one major false branch or false version. For me personally, shkanontrice never added up, I just couldn't stretch it to the fabric of the story. It felt a bit more crazy than it should've been. It was even before I discovered rosatrice. I heard about the shkanontrice theory but I just couldn't process it properly.
On the other hand when I discovered rosatrice theory and thorough proofs, now I saw like puzzle starting to solve, pieces went to their places, and foreshadowings were also at their places.
There is major episodes for both theories in the novel, but my gut said no to crazier version of the 2.
@@master2497 Circumstantial evidence. Also EP1 gives plenty of hints to Rosatrice if you know where to look.
Also no, I don't believe it was cold feet, but Land's cancellation and his friend dying made him go into creator's breakdown. Just look at how dissonant EP7 is from the first six.
@@master2497 Any good mystery author will create several red herrings to mislead the reader. Ryukishi left himself a handful of options for who Beatrice truly is, and likely switched the true culprit around several times in his own head. When he saw that people online were starting to realize the truth of Rosatrice, he diverted and wrote the culprit as Shkanon in Chiru to trick and mislead his audience. It is not a difficult deduction.
is there a way to get part 2 unblocked? thank you for reuploading btw
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VL68RIvG9M751rYZdjoqkQvPnDt-P_ul?usp=sharing
@@morisan42 Thanks.
@@morisan42 omg thank you so much you're a hero
Ok does anyone I owe the theme during when Erika seals the doors. (I can’t find it literally anywhere.)
[AKA 32:00 to 36:11 ]
Nevermind I managed to stumble upon it. It’s “totem blume”
I really like his video. But my god why does he treat Ryukishi07 like an infallible god?
You know why.
He is.
He treats him with respect, with belief that he had written his novel almost perfectly in regards of facts consistency.
Because the alternative is that R07 made a blunder in his own story. Some people are adamantly against the author making mistakes.
For the record, I do believe he made mistakes, but there's a lot of deception among these mistakes. After Umineko, however, R07's works suffered a massive decline in quality.
What about the ideia that all the games created by Beatrice were actually written by her, and she played them with Battler, thus making it possible for ShKanontrice to occur?
I mean, that's been confirmed already, the first two games were written by beatrice as well as many more undiscovered bottles as games for battler in case one of them was discovered before the family conference, the others were written by the writer along with amnesiac battler as clues for ange
1-2 were written by Beatrice, 3-6 were written by Tohya.
He has some good arguments against the original theory, but to be sure i can see stronger arguments about shkanon theory including explanations for the "contradictions"
But this dont make the alternative theory less impresive, really
What do you mean? I also don't believe this theory to make sense, but I'm curious. Right now, for example, I'm at the part in which he reported Maria saying Beatrice appeared in front of Nanjo, Genji, AND Shannon and Kanon. What could be the explanation?
@@boybillythebutcher4575 Simple. Yasu alternates between being Kanon, Shannon, and BEATRICE then Maria acknowledges "the magic" that all of them were there and talked.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Then Beatrice Would be a personality but she not appear, like is that?
@@norton7954 Yes. BEATRICE still looked physically like Shannon or Kanon, but they acted like BEATRICE during the conversations, so Maria used "magic" to say they were all there.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Beatrice is
shown like a different person of Shannon and Kanon on all the games, sorry but don't have coherence that you write It.
1:46:52 OMG This scene is sooo funny!
But what about the manga? As i heard (didn't read) in episode 8 of manga the official explanation is the only explanation that can exist.
Nothing but the novel is cannon.
@@jTiKey ryu said the opposite thing.
@@Vadim_Slastihin he lies. He also told that the new higurashi is a remake.
Does a false truth plus more red herring makes it true?
@@jTiKey He may have lied about it being Higurashi as well. We're getting a Bern origin story from the looks of it. Ether way he can retcon things at anytime Gou seems different from the ending we got before. Why is Hanyuu just a fragment and gone?
This theory could be true in an alternative line called Umineko Kotae.
It's funny how his main argument to reject the ShKanon theory is the " 17 people" which looks like mistake in the translation. Battler said "that makes 17 humans" in my version.
People and human is the same, not can be believed.
People and humans are the same thing, and both terms are interchangeable a lot in the story. That's the reason why Kinzo is not counted among the existing people (Beatrice outright states in EP4 she's going to lower the number of people by one because of Kinzo).
Provide evidence that it is a translation error
@@verisimuli Ok, I'll say it in red for you
The fact that some people still believe in Rosatrice worries me.
Why though? =)
@@Xelebri It's simple. It's not the truth. Not a bad theory, but it's not the truth.
@@ayushiki2306 I absolutely agree with you, but why should tha tbe worrysome? Isn't it rather fantastic, that this work stills sparks that many possible discussions? =)
@@Xelebri Oh yeah, it's not the theory itself, because it's actually good. It's just like I said, the issue is that some people still believe in it, like, religiously, to the point of denying the actual answers and making this theory the "official" one.
I believe Ryukishi never intended that the catbox should be never completely opened. Today, most people just 'trust' the official answer without checking it twice because of that misleading interview. It was understandable that people purposed different theories before the manga came out and now nobody really care about arguing against it. The prime time of discussing Umineko is over.
I know this guy
What happened to part 2? I wanted to rewatch this theory but I can't find it, was it taken down? :(
Yeah, copyright striked
drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/1VL68RIvG9M751rYZdjoqkQvPnDt-P_ul?usp=sharing
TheLostAge Bless this man.
On the Erika Furoda statement (introduction in red) she says she is the 18th HUMAN. Which would be true if you count Kinzo - I can't remember the exact rules here, but if a HUMAN is a separate statement from a BODY, then all Battler is saying is that Kinzo is already dead when she introduces herself.
Not sure that holds up - so this is more of a blue statement: An invitation for anyone with ideas surrounding this, to chip in or deny it in red.
To restate in blue: "Erika Furoda is the 18th 'human' on the island, but there are only 17 bodies, because a body refers to a living person, with Kinzo already being dead as she joins the introduces herself."
It doesn't really mesh in as elegantly as the "negation / killing of Erika" and her story, but it seems to be another plausible explanation for the red statements, that does not require Shanon = Kanon.
No, when Erika came to the island Kinzo was dead and couldn't be 18 persons, was 17.
@@norton7954 ah
I really like this theory. Way less convoluted than the actual truth
agreed, wish this was the real explanation..Umineko went really downhill in the answer arcs
@@Entertain-wc5vr it is real explanation most likely. Ryukishi said himself that he wants story that only 1 in thousand could understand, something among these lines.
This is also presented in next episodes of this very explanation.
So, candy never got into the hand of those who don't understand.
The fact R07 wrote a lot of supplementary material in order to "explain" the "official explanation" and changed a lot of things in the manga version shows how much the "official explanation" was a mess.
@@brtruev1710 or, what if Ryuukishi was pressured by the fans to spell out the solution due to his evasive attitude in Chiru? 07th Expansion is not carried by Ryuukishi alone; they have a market to cater to, and if they don't, everyone -- not just Ryuukishi -- will go down under. To me, it's clear Ryuukishi had wanted his readers to reason out the culprit by themselves, but due to the seeming hypocrisy of changing his stance on solution arcs in Higurashi, long-standing fans were outraged and forced his hand into writing supplementary material.
Just saying.
baby do not survive cliff dropping
It sounds funny, sorry for that comment.
This theory is in the line of Umineko Kotae.
My only critique of Shkaannontrice is when in Ep3 Shannon's body is moved, she pretends to be dead and then kills Nanjo. It makes no sesnse George grabbing her body and dragging it across the area, Battler should have called it (if he has more than 80 iq), Eva would 100% called it and killed Shannon (obvioulsy she caused Geogre's death).
When is Shannon's body / corpse moved in EP3? Perhaps I forgot.
@@Xelebri bro I don't remember how this scene went, my vague anime memory was George run somewhere to meet Shannon, then Eva and Battler found them both "dead" (Shannon was pretending). Shannon moved, nobody noticed that. Also why would George wanna stay with her body if she's dead, there is no signs of him being necro or smth. It would make more sense if he was killed by somebody else (not Eva or Yasu/Shannon). Still her body moved and nobody gave a notice, since she killed him.
Even if Eva recognizes that Shannon’s body moving is sus, I don’t really see a particular reason for her to share her thoughts with Battler. She’s probably already planning to kill him at this point. Plus, she just lost her son and all.
And for Battler himself, he had never even seen the original (fake) crime scene in the first place.
And no, it’s not obvious Shannon killed George. I don’t even think she did.
In episode 4, during the final showdown with Beatrice, Battler guesses that the person who killed Nanjo died after killing him but before Eva-Beatrice declared them dead. This Blue Truth was never refuted and implies that there could easily be another person besides Yasu or Eva who’s killing people in episode 3. Also, Beatrice (Yasu) shouldn’t have any motive for murder after the gold was discovered. This means the best explanation is that things descended into a murderous scramble for the gold/keycard between the 4 siblings and their spouses after the gold was discovered.
The most likely candidates for Nanjo’s murder is Kyrie/Rudolf. They tried to isolate and kill Hideyoshi with the whole “we gotta go on a food run” farce. (Beatrice even states in red that Kyrie’s motive with the food run wasn’t actually to get food). Eva herself doesn’t have an alibi during the food run either, so probably the two couples had a gunfight killing Hideyoshi and one of Kyrie/Rudolf, leaving the other of Kyrie/Rudolf wounded and playing dead. He/she kills George, and later Nanjo, and then dies of his/her wounds before Eva-Beatrice declares the 15 people dead. Eva of course killed Rosa and Maria, and probably Krauss and Natsuhi, and finally Battler at the end.
As for George running out to meet Shannon, I think he simply wanted to confirm her death with his own eyes. Or maybe he was lured out, I don’t know. As for George and Shannon being discovered together, it’s entirely possible that Rudolf/Kyrie really did kill them together (the Kanon-Jessica scene is never verified, so Yasu doesn’t have to survive for it).
@@FarWanderer81 it's all good, but Beatrice herself countered Eva-Beatrice theory by stating that Sayo killed Nanjo, meaning Shannon killed George (otherwise Kyrie would kill them both).
@@blandon93 When did Beatrice say that? Episode 8 manga or something?
it was all rosaposting all along
remember the vase scene
For real dude? This tale need explanation for 2 hours. Even this is part 1?
Bold of you to assume it only has 2 parts. AHAHA.WAVx34
Don't worry, there are FOUR parts, 2-ish hours EACH.
And a small addendum to part 1, but it only takes 10 minutes.
This theory has been confirmed in Umineko Golden Fantasy.
What is the part two of this video series? I can only find part 3 and part 4.
ua-cam.com/video/ThosMzcaNdM/v-deo.html
@@Xelebri It says "
This video contains content from FRONTIERWORKS and has been blocked by that owner based on copyright."
Is this a regional thing? Also thanks for the fast reply!
@@Grimmbow I too got this message. Oh, what a shame.
I love schizo theories (Attack on titan anime original ending truther) so I am HYPE to watch this
Could you do an explanation video of : Umineko against the anime english dub?
explanation including people who have not played the light novels just strictly against the anime.
It is confusing as all my searches I've done have no answers to the anime.
Thanks.
the umineko fandom that unlike higurashi's ok adaptation the umineko anime is worthless trash, so no one will ever do that.
also, you can't answer anything as anime only, becasuse the anime is barely half of the actual puzzle.
my suggestion if you really can't stomach the visual novel's 400 hours lenght is to go for the manga. it's considered at large to be a great adaptation and almost equivalent to the original.
it's just incredibly slightly inferior to the visual novel, and some uminek is better than no umineko (except the anime. fuck the anime.)
@@npc6817 a bit late on the comment. Just at what point does the time like split in the anime?
@@tsujack precisely in half at the end of chapter 4, but I suggest you still start from the beginning, the anime is very simplified so even if you know what happened you won't understand the rest.
I can't help much for the manga since I'm still waiting to get into it but for the visual novel don't forget to use the 07th mod, the installation is almost automatic and it will give you the ps3 sprites, voice acting and you can change the interface from the original scroll type to a more conventional visual novel textbox at the bottom style.
my personal recommendation to you would be to read the manga to ""review"" what you saw in the anime and then switch to the vn umineko chiru (on steam), containing the last four chapters.
those last chapters introduce a bunch of new amazingly voiced characters and music that I just can't recommend the manga over it.
hope that helps
@@npc6817 I can deal without the game. Just what point in the anime does it cut from season 1 to the future priestess in season 2? Or is a time loop back before all the killings started?
@@tsujack wait the hell is a future priestess?
and yes there's a time loop, there's eight of those, the anime are the loops 1-4 so you need the 5-8.
Part 2 has been blocked :/
Where is the Part 2?
I'd be interested to hear his take about the Ange part of the story also not being true
Ange's perspective is to be found for the most part in the 4th video.
This is all correct
would we get part 2?
Part two is already part of the Playlist. Only three is missing. =)
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VL68RIvG9M751rYZdjoqkQvPnDt-P_ul?usp=sharing
2:00
watching this, hope its not "scene x is a distraction made to distract us from the REAL ACTUAL CULPRIT"
why do shanon and kanon have the one winged eagle on their clothes
Because, just like Genji, they are personal servants of Kinzo.
Okey, even as a Shkanontrice beliver, this question is incredible dumb
Because they serve directly under Kinzo, or rather, the family head.
doesn’t the red truth state the detective (ie erika) can’t be the culprit?
It does. But Erika is only the detective in the fifth novel. In the sixth novel - Dawn of the Golden Witch - it is specifically mentionend multiple times, that Erika is NOT the detective.
The detective can't be the culprit. But, in EP6. Erika never claims the detective's authority, so she's not the detective.
Reupload 2 part plz, its blocked
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VL68RIvG9M751rYZdjoqkQvPnDt-P_ul?usp=sharing
Are you German or Dutch?
Of Netherlands.
it is insulting to people with multiple personality to say that a personality could be so easily killed off
Yasu doesn't have multiple personalities, she pretends to be 3 different people. It's a biiiiiit complicated, but IDENTITY is perhaps the better term to use rather than personality. She is the same person but acting out three different personas, rather than one person who has multiple split personalities. Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice all know they're the same person and don't think they're truly separate from one another. It makes me think of Nomura from Higurashi, who uses several different names to talk to different government officials, and presumably also pretends to be a different person depending on who she talks to
What "killing off" a persona means is pretty ambiguous, my take on it is that Yasu does something to make everyone else on the island acknowledge that Shannon/Kanon has died, thereby proclaiming her Shannon/Kanon character as dead
But at any rate rest assured, I don't think there's any disrespect to people with DID here :) She doesn't tell one of her split personalities "okay you can't come out anymore you're dead" and the personality just dies or anything like that
@@circle3565 is stupid, Then Beatrice also will be a personality or an identity and Erika had say in red 19 persons, not 18 due to that Beatrice also will be an identity but never is done, is very ridiculous.
@@circle3565 that is very stupid, if Shannon dies before, Kannon also would have that to die at the same time due to that are the same person with different roles but never happened that, is very absurd.
At least in Rosa's case, we see her changes from a good mama to an evil according to Maria
@@norton7954 it's pointless, the whole "killing a persona" thing just makes no sense rationally. Everything is confusing and bizarre but somehow you're supposed to blindly accept it.
1:50:45 god bless the rule 34 community, helping uncover evidence :P
No need for Rule 34. That is an official DVD-Cover (just the tattoo is added in).
I watched all videos and I ask... What even is Umineko about? :v
Unironically, it's about not seeing the truth, not hearing the truth and not speaking the truth.
So there's a lesson to be learned from all this? We must accept the truth by hearing, seeing and talking the truth? :/
@@kevyready2194 There was straight line how Battler presented the Ushiromya family in the last episode. Ange entered the game as a late teen so she should get the idea of serious family matters. Of course she didn't like Battler's show of a happy fun halloween. It's ok for a child not to show everything but being truthful (in a gentle way) about certain affairs. It could be death illness, divorce, stress, opinions etc. I think it would have been better if Battler had said something like the truth is sad for everyone so he don't want to tell it. Beatrice would replace your dead pet hamster, Erika would tell you your hamster died and Battler took the hamster cage and refuses to talk about. Battler is extremely indirect about bad things? You know, it sometimes backfires if you want the best for someone.
@@DonTollpatschi I really like your hamster analogy lmao
Your truth is the only thing that matters, even if everyone else sees you as the delusional person you are, and magic and Beatrice exists, uu~. Oh, and that making stupid childhood promises might make someone want to blow up an entire island over it.
There’s absolutely no way that George is the culprit...I don’t think this guy has even read the series...
He did read it. George is willing and capable of killing and he would for Shannon as stated in the Magic battle versus Gaap.
Although he isnt my culprit of choice either lol
Turn A Gundam theres no way that George is a culprit. He clearly didn’t read the novels. Shannon (or more accurately, Yasu) is the true culprit. Get over it.
@@TequilaMockingBird91 That's not really a counterargument so much as it is an affirmation of the official solution given by the creator. ... Actually I remain of the belief this whole thing is a mess that doesn't work and am seeing if any explanation anywhere really fits without twisting a few definitions to shreds.
Antinomic Source “kanon’s body disappears” “that’s just wants happens when Shannon dies”
Boom. Concrete non-negotiable confirmation that Shannon and Kanon are the same person found directly in the novel.
You showed red statements that proved Shkanon are treated as two people, but Shkanon is still treated as one in "if you join there'll be 17". You proved the author made a mistake, I don't see any other way around it.
Watch the entire video
The first explanation already fails. He got the Red Truth regarding the six deaths of the chained locked rooms wrong. It never used the word people. The Truth was, and I quote: "These six are all dead: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa!"
There was no red or whatsoever calling them people, persons or bodies regarding the "six" within the chained locked rooms from that game.
Even later when EVA-Beatrice caught Battler in her web of red truths, she mentioned 15 names and declared them all dead in red. And again she just said those 15 and not those 15 people or persons. Furthermore she named three more persons that are alive. Battler, Eva and Jessica. So we have 18 names stated in red that participated in the second game. We only come to 16+Erika if the following is given: kinzo was already dead from the start as stated in red and gold so is therefore none of the 16 bodies. We are left with 17 names. Shannon and Kanon share a body, so we get to 16. This won't be possible if they were two bodies.
@@Le_Pete is right. His red truth is false. The word « people » is not mentioned. Anyway can check it in the wiki.
@@TheKikyo97 Irrelevant in the case of EVA. She clearly mentions "humans".
"There are no more than 18 humans on this island"
"No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game"
"X is dead"
"Those 15 are all dead"
The red immediately follows from humans, "which" is interchangeable with "people". That's how Kinzo is excluded from the final count by Beatrice in EP4's Tea Party.
"Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island. I will lower that by one for Kinzo!! No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!This applies to all games!!!"
Continuing from EP4:
"Because of your sin, people die."
"Due to your sin, a great many humans of this island die. No one escapes, all die."
So it's irrelevant if he got the red wrong in the linked room murders because humans=people according to the red itself. Also, as a bonus:
"No one else can go by Kanon's name! A different person can't claim that as their name!"
So yeah, Shkanontrice is a fail. But people will go ahead and insist on the "personality" nonsense, which shows they don't know anything about DID.
@@brtruev1710 I think you're literally confused (just as much as me, because it's been two years for me) because we as english speakers are missing the nuances of the japanese version, and the japanese red truth specifically. You need to keep in mind that.
People have already checked sentence by sentence the red truths and there's no logical error.
For example, 'The only one who can claims kanon name is Kanon himself' is not actually really accurate. It more likely to be 'the only person who can claims kanon's name is kanon's himself'
’Kanon’ refers to a role being played. Therefore, if anyone claims the name ‘Kanon’ then they are truly ‘Kanon’. This red truth is meant to be a hint towards the nature of Kanon. Otherwise, why would it be the case that a different person cannot claim his name?