For everyone who keeps saying "EMD MEANS ELECTRO-MOTIVE DIVISION", yes, I know, but only when they were with GM. They switched it after they were spun off and the current brand name is still "Electro-Motive Diesel."
It was part of a lot of mismanagement, but they still had a lot of sales even after that. Their failure to develop solid modern engines as quickly as GE was way more of an issue. Not that the SD50’s helped, but they could have recovered from that.
I understand that the focus of this channel is rail. But it's worth noting that EMD also powered multiple generations of workboats. I have sailed on various OSVs and tugboat with various versions of either single or dual 645 and 710s chugging away in the engine room. I've yet to see one that didn't weep a bit of oil, but the big lumps will probably outlive all of us...as long as the engineer remembers to blow the cylinders down before starting from cold. On the water, CAT has taken the lead for newbuilds with Tier 4 compliance. But if you get on something made before about 2000 or so, that is less than 300' long, it probably has an EMD heart.
Interesting. I started my career at Montreal locomotive works in 1966, which was the Canadian Alco branch. Now was bought out by Bombardier in the mid 70s, which sold it in 1988/89 to GE. I then continued with GE transportation in international sales of locomotives until my retirement in late 2014. Looking back, I loved every minute of my career. Lots of nice history in your video.
@aggydaddy , That is a long career... Good for You... I worked for Bombardier in their aircraft maintenance dept. for a very short time... Just after I started at the location that I was at, I learned that they were in the process of selling that operation to MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) , and about 3 months after I started with them, Covid-19 was getting under-way... So Bimbardier started laying people off... This is what happens with large companies at times, they are highly reliant on the economy and other factors... When they get caught in a bad situation, often the people who work for them get caught looking for work at other places, because of the inherent instabilities of companies like this... The most important thing for ANYBODY, who is going to survive storms like these, is to have marketable skills and the tools & Equipment to support these skills... This way they can apply their talents and skills in other directions....
Believe me EMD is very much still alive in export locomotive with the 710 series and in service in marine use here in USA with river push boats-usually running triple engines. Also tugs.
I worked at the EMD plant on Burlingame in Grand Rapids, Michigan years ago. We eventually sold to Penske Transportation of Roger Penske fame, and renamed it Diesel Technology, continuing to manufacture the electronic and mechanical fuel injectors for EMD and others. After expanding the operations across multiple new plants in the area, Roger sold 49 percent of the company to Bosch. The operations was expanded a few more times following that merger, and I left the company a few years after that.
Hidy. I always liked EMD of GM better than GE locomotives. EMD's components were much smaller and lighter weight than GE's were, thus making it much easier to tote the part to where tge unit was parked and change it out, pretty much in the same shift and Load Test it and have another "MAKE ENGINE" for our foremen. Tgey had to have a certain amount of "MAKE ENGINES" per shift or their bosses would make it hard on them. You know what they say...Crap runs down hill !!! If the boss caught hell, we did, too!!! Up until about 1985, our shop didn't maintain ANY GE's. Atlanta serviced them. Our shop wasn't set up for GE's. It was rough when we had to start working on GE's because their electrical systems were completely backwards from EMD's. EMD believed that current flowed from POSITIVE to NEGATIVE. So Negatives were jumpered, or daisy-chained, and Positives were switched. GE's believed current flowed from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE. Their coil positives were daisy-chained and their Negatives were switched! GE's had a high voltage room with High Frequency in it that was several steps down from the walkway. You had to go in there at times to get readings. There was so much power in there it gave me the willies just to go in there! I worked on Locomotives for a tad over 37 years. Thank you for your very nice video. I always enjoy-joy learning more about a subject. Here's a little piece of the puzzle for you. Just before the GP49-X came out, NS7000, 7001, 7002, & 7003; I introduced a new style of cable form wiring that God showed me. I perfected and tested it in my little shop at home, and installed it in an AC Cabinet on a GP38, that we were rewiring. A group of fellows in suits were gathering behind me. I had tried several times to get my bosses to let me apply this pattern and they had swept it under the rug, so to speak...but this time, the manager and his anterage accepted it. They wete the two senior reps for GE Locomotives and the two senior reps for EMD of GM. They both liked and adopted it and everything from that point in time, on, ALL their units came out of the factories with MY CABLE FORM WIRING on it. No, I didn't get diddeley for it. My work was ostracized, as usual !!! BUT, I made a BIG difference in those two companies and their product. The new style of wiring cut down the MF's on the line of road by a large percentage, due to the larger LOOPS and strain reliefs employed in it's design. Less lug breakage and easier trouble-shooting. All lables were in front on the bend of the wire. The smaller loops would resonate and the lugs would break off or almost break off and cause resistance and then a fire.
The demise of the Electromotive Division under General Motors was primary the result of their slow adaptation of 4 stroke diesel engine technology. General Electric had perfected high horsepower 4 stroke technological before Electromotive Division first produced a 4 stroke diesel engine. When emissions became an issue, General Electric was way ahead in emissions technology
And yet, GE engines still suck. Catch fire, seize up, and generally just break down constantly. All of those issues are not a problem with EMD. It's almost like GE was selling under cost just to get ahead, oh wait. They did, and it worked. Congrats to them, I suppose. Quantity of quality, the AMERICAN way.
@@archiebunker7688 EMD was the first US builder to market a diesel electric locomotive with AC traction induction propulsion. They also made straight electric locomotives with AC traction induction propulsion.
Agreed. I do believe they were the cause of EMD’s fall as well. They were plagued with both engine and electrical problems and couldn’t compete with the GE Dash-8’s. My dad and uncles all worked for Mo-Pac and MP placed a big order of SD-50’s right before they were bought out by UP. UP inherited those brand new units and phased them out quickly.
Irish rail, or what they were called back then, CIÉ, depended heavily on EMD locomotives. Quite a varied history. Including the GL8 switcher for mainline passenger and freight. The very last true locomotive they bought was the JT42HCW, before mainly relying on DMUs for long distance passenger traffic. The JT42HCW is still used for freight, but the ironic thing is, when they fail for any reason, the rescue locomotive is usually a nearly 50 year old JT22CW
12:41 A near collision! 14:17 Note: FM had the first reliable 2400HP diesel in 1951... Their demands went to the marine builders... didn't really fail. FM would put their mechanics where the locomotives were being used by the railroads. That made them reliable. Otherwise, most who worked on them didn't like them.
Indeed so good was the SD40-2 that EMD put it in a skinsuit, sold it to Foster Yeoman here in the UK where it became the Class 59, and that would ultimately be that for our domestic diesel loco manufacturing.
The 59 is a very special piece of kit! They begat the class 66 which is much more of an all purpose workhorse and a superb loco in itself. If they killed British loco building its only because they didn’t learn the lessons from America.
@@22pcirishthey sort of did but bungled the 59 was a breakthrough and a kick in the butt for British railways school of thought and the class 60 was more powerful but less effective traction control but privatisation was the killer blow as BR didn't buy any new stock for the last three years of its existence which was a death blow to its main contractors
@@charlesburgoyne-probyn6044 The 59 was a hand built bit of kit for a specialist job. The 66 is a maid of all work. I drive them, and I’ve driven all the old type 5’s. I know what I’d rather have! As good as the 60’s are, and (when they work) they are a superb bit of kit. But their top speed at 60 is the principle reason they are sidelined. Oh, and BR really should have stopped using ship engines. They don’t like trains! The traction control was too good but took up a third of the loco to do. Super creep 59/66 control module, you can hold in your hand. THAT is the difference.
@@22pcirish BR suffered from a closed market tie in also as the GB clearances are among the smallest in standard gauge it meant that foreign locomotives couldn't be readily tested in GB for appraisal. I remember as a young boy with the class 59 passing through Hungerford being a sensation owing to their power, foreign build and private ownership rendering them quite unlike other traction for many years. There is always going to be the horses for courses Vs jack of all trades dilemma in choices , this principle is universal in human constructed objects of use. One of the major faults of BR was the great variety of classes of diesels they commissioned, a disaster for economics Nevertheless there is an element of sadness about the class 60 in that it had admirable features but fated to be an also ran .
How about doing the rise of Wisconsin Central? It was the largest class 2 regional line in the Midwest, was formed out of unused and non profitable lines which accidentally gave them a mainline from Superior WI to Chicago as well as trackage rights to Minneapolis, they even had a line into Canada through Sault Ste. Marie and the former Algoma Central.
Wisconsin Central still has title to the longest railroad receivership in history; 21 years. The modern WC consists of trackage spun off from the Soo Line when they took over the Milwaukee Road properties. WC owes their success to the very profitable Soo Line.
I worked there when I graduated in 2007. SD38ACe, SD70ACS. Spent time digging through all the old microfilm drawings & test reports of stuff from the 40s and 50s.
Takeover by Caterpillar Progress Rail featured a lockout at the EMD plant in London, Ontario, and shifting all locomotive work to non union plants in right to work states in the US.
The locomotives built in London were the best ones built by EMD. Caterpillar shot themselves in the foot since the ones built in the a-mentioned plant were plagued with build quality issues.
BTW,as an aside,GM,as a car manufacturer has also hit the skids! Its products aren't doing so well! The truck division has many unsold units,and there,like Boeing,parking lots full of vehicles! When you have trucks,and SUV's selling for upwards of $75,000 dollars,with no buyers,in a recession/ depression,its a rather heavy millstone around the corporate neck! This is a highly condensed version of the current situation! Thank you for your attention ☺️! Thank you 😇 😊!!
We ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till the stuff really hits the fan, economically speaking. I hope GM, Ford and Ram enjoyed the outrageous profits they made on the trucks, and put them to good use(I doubt it........electrics no one wants). New trucks will be HEAVILY discounted, and you will be able to pick up nice used ones for fire sale prices, from people who have no choice but to sell, and repo's. My Supervisor at work just bought a 3/4 ton Ram for 83k. I told him in a year or two I might take it off his hands for 10k when he will not be able to make the payments on his necessities and "toys", and I am debt free.
Not since 2005. It was sold and renamed to Electro Motive Diesel, Inc. which is it's current name. it's kind of like the 'Sears tower' it was always be 'Division' to me. It is detailed at 21:50.
Interesting, no mention of the SD50 locomotive. If I recall, EMD got a black eye due to the 645 prime mover experiencing crankshaft failures. 645 was pushed too far beyond it's design limits. Too bad.
You forgot to mention EMD ending production in LaGrange and moving all production to their London, Ont facility with a lot of quality control issues before moving everything to Muncie, Ind in recent years. Alot of GE's recent locomotive success came from GE Capital's ability to offer better financing on their products. Now that GE locomotives are WABTEC and EMD is a part of Caterpillar, we'll see what that does for both brands in the long haul.
Wabfart plant went on strike for 9 days when they took over GETS and 4 years later another contract rejection and strike. It's same GE managers just that they are bigger a-holes and CEO Rafael Santanadana is making 40 million a year and his panties are tighter than a nuns you know what you would.swear he's Justin Trudeau 2.0
Many of my family worked for GM and their division was sold off just like EMD, Detroit Diesel, among others. They seemed to loose interest in everything other than core auto production. Another point is that sometimes when someone has a really good product, then eventually replaces it, the new product, especially with its teething problems will never meet the expectations based on the recently replaced model. The -2 line is hard to top. The Super Series was a real step up in technology. If EMD had pushed out the 710, instead of pushing 645 past its reliable limit, then things might have gone better.
The GM consolidation of EMC is to be seen as yet another piece of evidence in the entire Great American Streetcar Scandal, as well as GM’s way to get a stronger hold on class 1 Railroads.
In 1997/1998 I was in discussions with EMD about a design for a new engine for their locomotive. To be fitted to the SD-45. According to our specs while the SD-45 consumed 188 gal/hr while our design would run on 68gal/hr for the same output. Of course EMD was super interested. We were also in discussions with UP to fund the pilot program by pre-ordering at least 5 locomotives. It all fell thru when we needed Patents to protect our technology and some of our college apprentices had mentioned it to their professor who turned it into a class project -- to make an amusement park 2-foot tall locomotive ("someday in the next 50 years maybe..."). The Patent office rejected the Patent on the basis that this university was already building them in the market. It ruined everything. I can't tell you my thoughts about the small sightedness of professors and many college students.
My gramma would say " damn yowns" around 1990 GE got a govt grant to tinker with burning a coal slurry as fuel instead of straight diesel. It did run but there were issues with carbon deposits fouling injectors and cylinders.
I had the "pleasure" spending time in a small main engine room on a WW2 LST (Landing Ship,Tank) back in the '60s with two V12 EMD 567s, a noise level few people get to experience...
EMD in London Ontario Built 20 Electric Powered Overhead Wires Locomotives for BC Rail One is On Display in Prince George BC at Rail Museum Very Unique Technology
The Progress Rail EMD SD709-ACE locomotives are selling albeit not like in the past. The big issues are Tier 3/4 compliance and not reliability anymore. If you can upgrade a GEVO to a Tier 3, that's millions of dollars less than say a new ET44. Both EMD and GE built locomotives that are ultimately too reliable. Likewise SD80s have been rebuilt to SD70M style models and still have a lot of useful life. For Class 1s, if they can rebuild and meet EPA rules then why buy new?
Ge Locomotives were never Reliable, most never get Rebuilt, Norfork southern one of the best in the world at Rebuilding tryed to rebuild ge Locomotives but gave up on it
@@dknowles60 Las locomotoras de GENERAL ELECTRIC en Argentina nunca tuvieron éxito, siempre se rompían, de hecho, solo hay muy pocas locomotoras en servicio de esta marca, por tirar un número 20 o menos locomotoras, de diferentes modelos, mientras que de GM más en servicio de 100 fácil, y de diferentes modelos. Saludos!!!! @dknowles60 The GENERAL ELECTRIC locomotives in Argentina were never successful, they always broke down, in fact, there are only very few locomotives of this brand in service, for pulling a number 20 or less locomotives, of different models, while GM's more in service of 100 easy, and of different models. Greetings!!!!
EMD is still the best of the best even if they aren't the most prolific. Their designs are better and always have looked better than GE. Caterpillar is also a great company even though EMD is owned by a subsidiary company. I just hope someday we have more cummins powered EMD locomotives.
@@ChargerusPrime ...I know what a Cummins sounds like. I've worked with the 6.7L medium duty engines in straight trucks and x15s in the big tractors. When they idle they sound to me like they are going to rattle themselves apart. I've seen an x15 with 48k miles with a giant hole in the block. Although in my small amount of experience with them, they seem to be solid and reliable. Yeah they're cool in pickup trucks because I would rather deal with a simpler turbo inline 6 within that engine bay space than a turbo v8. I would want a Detroit diesel 60 series in a big rig if I owned it. Now EMD 2 stroke engines are great in locos and I would like to see them there forever but we know 2 stroke aren't the most environmentally friendly. Got any other reasons why EMDs should run Cummins engines?
@@ellisjackson3355 well, my experience with my own 5.9l cummins is nothing but joyous running. There's actually already a locomotive with a cummins in it, look it up here on UA-cam. My other reasoning is to my knowledge it's a smaller prime mover that puts out the same amount of power but being smaller it can be put in other engine units. Such as all of amtraks new Siemens charger units which all have them.
Tons of information of the various competitors of small, medium and large companies, and the how , when & why the various manufacturers folded, were bought out , and /or eventually were over-run by the larger companies.. Scant and very abbreviated information of why certain designs worked well, and how other designs did not work so well.. No mention was made of the revolutionary air braking systems that George Westinghouse patented in 1869 that made rail travel so much safer... Many Other engineering improvements were developed for this extremely vital industry that vastly improved the safety, reliability and efficiency of the railroads.... How about more of those things being recognized? Just saying...
You forgot to mention the licensing of EMD to Europe. Engines and entire locomotives were licensed. NOHAB and others did build alot of on both ends a cab engines for European railroads. The famous US F7 became the AA16 in Europe and was in use in Norway Denmark Belgium Luxemburg and Hungary. They lasted till 2000 by main operators and several got a second live as private engines for f.e. track construction/ renewal trains. The class 66 is also an EMD export design purposly designed for the smaller width UK network that became a succes in entire Europe.
Some of it's stuff is very long lived - especially some of the export locos like the EMD G12. The G12 was exporterd mostly to South America and the Middle East in the 60ies. Some of those still run although in my country they no longer haul passenger trains, this honour is done mostly by EMD 710 based locos built in Spain.
Amusingly, that first trip on the Chicago Great Western had the doodlebug hauling a heavy business car all the way back west, which was a significant overload in terms of tonnage!
I think you forgot what really killed EMD: the God-awful SD50 models. Those models just pushed the 645 prime mover design just a bit too far and only a few hundred were built, and most of those SD50's were quickly retired/scrapped or converted back to SD40 prime mover configuration.
So the most efficient way to move crap across the country, the EPA said not good enough, and caused all these issues. We all know that the semi's all pollute way way more than the locomotives do.
When will the once mighty GM learn their lesson? They messed up several times with small import fighting cars. Corsair and Vega ring a bell? Poor Quality Control didn't help, either. Remember the X cars. How about Chevy engines in Oldsmobile and Buick? You paid a premium price for them and ended up with Chevy parts, along with undersized Hydra-Matic transmissions that failed prematurely. I could go on and on. Nobody in my family drives GM cars anymore. We buy Japanese. Quality, endurance.
Still, EMD locos are using in full swing India where electrification works are not completed specially in Rajasthan and North-east India. I used to travel Dargelling Mail,a NJP bound superfast express hauled by EMD loco, before 2020.Many express trains ran depending upon the power of these locos, but now, all of them are replaced by Electric traction.
I remember being told about emd being sold by gm, but i thought it was in the late 80s and it hurt gm pretty hard. The gm class double ended b class is still being used in freight in Victoria Australia, but i think they were a copy.
We all know that OHIOAN Thomas Edison is the American with the most patents. But do you know who is second? OHIOAN Charles F Kettering. Founder of Dayton Engineering Laboratories COmpany = DELCO
There is a large part of the story you left out, the class 59/ class 66, how they managed to take the UK, and then europe by storm and displace pretty much of EWS’s fleet (at the time) by about 98%
They’d still be a powerhouse of it wasn’t for the stupid tiered emissions demands mandated by government. Tier 4 engines are ridiculously over complicated and expensive for the amount of reduced emissions they emit.
On a scale of 1-10, any EMD you get on a train is at best a 5. Especially the 6-axle trash they make*. GE's are like 5-8 depending on how old they are but an AC GEVO is as close to 10 as you could get. They pull anything, their dynamic brakes actually exist, and they work! And the ergonomics are on a different level. Whatever an EMD can give you, a modern GE does better and more consistently. Take the dynamic brake for example, in a GE you can go into set-up and immediately get effort. On an EMD set-up thru Brake 2 gives you shit, then Brake 3 you get EVERYTHING at once, then Brake 4 they drop out again, and so on; like I said, TRASH. And the same goes for the passenger stuff. P42s are good and reliable even despite their age despite them basically being a version of the old Dash 8's, which had their own little issues but, the EMD equivalent to the Dash 8 was what? the SD60? lol, that pile of shit was a dumpster fire. F59s are PURE TRASH. 100% GARBAGE as well, nothing good about them, on the rare occasion their blended brake decides to show up, it's mediocre, might as well just use the BC. F40s, meh, foamers nut all over them but they had little quirks about them, they did run like hell when they worked. The issue was IF they worked. Either way, we were still in Vietnam when EMD last made a good locomotive. *The SD70ACe can pull, but the cab is a deafening torture chamber. The newer T4 cabs they've come out with are a big improvement, but at the end of the day, it's still not as good as a C45AC.
Yeah, what he said. Retired engineer here. GM's final hour was the SD40-2, fantastic machines. Since then I was never a fan. The newer GE's are fabulous!! Its great being retired, that check shows up every month no matter where I am or what I'm doing!!
I think the reason why what killed EMD was the SD50s. The SD50s were complete dogs--t, as they suffered engine problems (crankshaft failures), cooling failures and complicated electronics which also leads to electrical issues. Also WHAT HAPPENED TO EMD'S PARTNERSHIP WITH ASEA? Yea EMD built electric powered units like the AEM-7 & GMD GF6C
It’s rather ironic that GE eventually fell and nearly went out of business, largely because of mismanagement and their financing division. The only reason GE is still a player in the North American Locomotive market is that EMD/ Progress rail is not a strong competitor. If Caterpillar were to spin off Progress Rail to someone like Siemens, who wants to compete actively in the North American market, I believe GE would lose much of its market cap.
California is to blame. They have strict environmental standards and GE's GEVO came out about the same time and fit what they wanted and so the whole railroad landscape changed in 2005.
For everyone who keeps saying "EMD MEANS ELECTRO-MOTIVE DIVISION", yes, I know, but only when they were with GM. They switched it after they were spun off and the current brand name is still "Electro-Motive Diesel."
Something i've been questioning around. Where is the part of infamous SD50 flop? I thought that thing is the reason why EMD fell down so bad
It was part of a lot of mismanagement, but they still had a lot of sales even after that. Their failure to develop solid modern engines as quickly as GE was way more of an issue. Not that the SD50’s helped, but they could have recovered from that.
EMC and EMD (Division) ROSE. EMD (Diesel) FELL
Back in the '60s and '70, my uncle worked at Electro-Motive Diesel in Illinois.
Why not refer to them how they were known in their “ glory years “ with GM instead of referring to them by the name that drove them into the ground?
My father worked at EMD in McCook Il. for 35 years. He was a foreman in the electrical division. The stories from the shop floor would curl your hair.
It'd be cool to record some his stories and upload them! It's always nice to hear from those that lived it.
Like what?
I understand that the focus of this channel is rail. But it's worth noting that EMD also powered multiple generations of workboats. I have sailed on various OSVs and tugboat with various versions of either single or dual 645 and 710s chugging away in the engine room. I've yet to see one that didn't weep a bit of oil, but the big lumps will probably outlive all of us...as long as the engineer remembers to blow the cylinders down before starting from cold.
On the water, CAT has taken the lead for newbuilds with Tier 4 compliance. But if you get on something made before about 2000 or so, that is less than 300' long, it probably has an EMD heart.
Interesting. I started my career at Montreal locomotive works in 1966, which was the Canadian Alco branch. Now was bought out by Bombardier in the mid 70s, which sold it in 1988/89 to GE. I then continued with GE transportation in international sales of locomotives until my retirement in late 2014. Looking back, I loved every minute of my career. Lots of nice history in your video.
@aggydaddy , That is a long career... Good for You... I worked for Bombardier in their aircraft maintenance dept. for a very short time... Just after I started at the location that I was at, I learned that they were in the process of selling that operation to MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) , and about 3 months after I started with them, Covid-19 was getting under-way... So Bimbardier started laying people off... This is what happens with large companies at times, they are highly reliant on the economy and other factors... When they get caught in a bad situation, often the people who work for them get caught looking for work at other places, because of the inherent instabilities of companies like this... The most important thing for ANYBODY, who is going to survive storms like these, is to have marketable skills and the tools & Equipment to support these skills... This way they can apply their talents and skills in other directions....
Believe me EMD is very much still alive in export locomotive with the 710 series and in service in marine use here in USA with river push boats-usually running triple engines. Also tugs.
I worked at the EMD plant on Burlingame in Grand Rapids, Michigan years ago. We eventually sold to Penske Transportation of Roger Penske fame, and renamed it Diesel Technology, continuing to manufacture the electronic and mechanical fuel injectors for EMD and others. After expanding the operations across multiple new plants in the area, Roger sold 49 percent of the company to Bosch. The operations was expanded a few more times following that merger, and I left the company a few years after that.
Hidy. I always liked EMD of GM better than GE locomotives. EMD's components were much smaller and lighter weight than GE's were, thus making it much easier to tote the part to where tge unit was parked and change it out, pretty much in the same shift and Load Test it and have another "MAKE ENGINE" for our foremen. Tgey had to have a certain amount of "MAKE ENGINES" per shift or their bosses would make it hard on them. You know what they say...Crap runs down hill !!! If the boss caught hell, we did, too!!! Up until about 1985, our shop didn't maintain ANY GE's. Atlanta serviced them. Our shop wasn't set up for GE's. It was rough when we had to start working on GE's because their electrical systems were completely backwards from EMD's. EMD believed that current flowed from POSITIVE to NEGATIVE. So Negatives were jumpered, or daisy-chained, and Positives were switched. GE's believed current flowed from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE. Their coil positives were daisy-chained and their Negatives were switched! GE's had a high voltage room with High Frequency in it that was several steps down from the walkway. You had to go in there at times to get readings. There was so much power in there it gave me the willies just to go in there! I worked on Locomotives for a tad over 37 years. Thank you for your very nice video. I always enjoy-joy learning more about a subject. Here's a little piece of the puzzle for you. Just before the GP49-X came out, NS7000, 7001, 7002, & 7003; I introduced a new style of cable form wiring that God showed me. I perfected and tested it in my little shop at home, and installed it in an AC Cabinet on a GP38, that we were rewiring. A group of fellows in suits were gathering behind me. I had tried several times to get my bosses to let me apply this pattern and they had swept it under the rug, so to speak...but this time, the manager and his anterage accepted it. They wete the two senior reps for GE Locomotives and the two senior reps for EMD of GM. They both liked and adopted it and everything from that point in time, on, ALL their units came out of the factories with MY CABLE FORM WIRING on it. No, I didn't get diddeley for it. My work was ostracized, as usual !!! BUT, I made a BIG difference in those two companies and their product. The new style of wiring cut down the MF's on the line of road by a large percentage, due to the larger LOOPS and strain reliefs employed in it's design. Less lug breakage and easier trouble-shooting. All lables were in front on the bend of the wire. The smaller loops would resonate and the lugs would break off or almost break off and cause resistance and then a fire.
The demise of the Electromotive Division under General Motors was primary the result of their slow adaptation of 4 stroke diesel engine technology. General Electric had perfected high horsepower 4 stroke technological before Electromotive Division first produced a 4 stroke diesel engine. When emissions became an issue, General Electric was way ahead in emissions technology
And yet, GE engines still suck. Catch fire, seize up, and generally just break down constantly. All of those issues are not a problem with EMD. It's almost like GE was selling under cost just to get ahead, oh wait. They did, and it worked. Congrats to them, I suppose. Quantity of quality, the AMERICAN way.
GE had alot of A/C alternator drive technology
@@archiebunker7688 EMD was the first US builder to market a diesel electric locomotive with AC traction induction propulsion.
They also made straight electric locomotives with AC traction induction propulsion.
@SandBoxJohn EMD never taught Thomas Edison how to make sparks or tie his shoes.
@@archiebunker7688 You seem to forget that Thomas Edison advocated the use DC over AC.
Was a little surprised to not hear anything about the SD-50 debacle and what it did to EMD
Agreed. I do believe they were the cause of EMD’s fall as well. They were plagued with both engine and electrical problems and couldn’t compete with the GE Dash-8’s. My dad and uncles all worked for Mo-Pac and MP placed a big order of SD-50’s right before they were bought out by UP. UP inherited those brand new units and phased them out quickly.
Same. And about the same time the 50's hit the market and started having problems, GE had the Dash 8's ready to go.
We had GP7's here in NZ, but they were called DA's here, which stands for diesel America. I've driven one and they are fantastic to drive
Now GE has spun off the locomotive division to Wabtec. So they are out of the loco business now too.
Irish rail, or what they were called back then, CIÉ, depended heavily on EMD locomotives. Quite a varied history. Including the GL8 switcher for mainline passenger and freight. The very last true locomotive they bought was the JT42HCW, before mainly relying on DMUs for long distance passenger traffic. The JT42HCW is still used for freight, but the ironic thing is, when they fail for any reason, the rescue locomotive is usually a nearly 50 year old JT22CW
Nothing sounds quite like the chant of an old EMD. I grew up near the SP and hearing a 567 still makes me smile.
Companies, just like people, are not immune to karma. GE will meet its fate too at some point. When you're on top, there's only one way to go...
All this battery and hydrogen stuff will probably bite them sooner or later lol. We just gotta sit back and enjoy the show 🍿
Yep
You would be surprised.
Agree 100 percent
Siemens ...
12:41 A near collision!
14:17 Note: FM had the first reliable 2400HP diesel in 1951... Their demands went to the marine builders... didn't really fail. FM would put their mechanics where the locomotives were being used by the railroads. That made them reliable. Otherwise, most who worked on them didn't like them.
The SD 9 is still a hell of a good looking engine exsp. in larger scales like S or O and in D&RGW 1950ies livery.
Indeed so good was the SD40-2 that EMD put it in a skinsuit, sold it to Foster Yeoman here in the UK where it became the Class 59, and that would ultimately be that for our domestic diesel loco manufacturing.
The 59 is a very special piece of kit! They begat the class 66 which is much more of an all purpose workhorse and a superb loco in itself. If they killed British loco building its only because they didn’t learn the lessons from America.
@@22pcirishthey sort of did but bungled the 59 was a breakthrough and a kick in the butt for British railways school of thought and the class 60 was more powerful but less effective traction control but privatisation was the killer blow as BR didn't buy any new stock for the last three years of its existence which was a death blow to its main contractors
@@charlesburgoyne-probyn6044 The 59 was a hand built bit of kit for a specialist job. The 66 is a maid of all work. I drive them, and I’ve driven all the old type 5’s. I know what I’d rather have! As good as the 60’s are, and (when they work) they are a superb bit of kit. But their top speed at 60 is the principle reason they are sidelined. Oh, and BR really should have stopped using ship engines. They don’t like trains! The traction control was too good but took up a third of the loco to do. Super creep 59/66 control module, you can hold in your hand. THAT is the difference.
@@22pcirish BR suffered from a closed market tie in also as the GB clearances are among the smallest in standard gauge it meant that foreign locomotives couldn't be readily tested in GB for appraisal. I remember as a young boy with the class 59 passing through Hungerford being a sensation owing to their power, foreign build and private ownership rendering them quite unlike other traction for many years. There is always going to be the horses for courses Vs jack of all trades dilemma in choices , this principle is universal in human constructed objects of use.
One of the major faults of BR was the great variety of classes of diesels they commissioned, a disaster for economics
Nevertheless there is an element of sadness about the class 60 in that it had admirable features but fated to be an also ran .
@@charlesburgoyne-probyn6044 stay tuned with the class 60. It could be that a new, rebuilt, future awaits!
How about doing the rise of Wisconsin Central? It was the largest class 2 regional line in the Midwest, was formed out of unused and non profitable lines which accidentally gave them a mainline from Superior WI to Chicago as well as trackage rights to Minneapolis, they even had a line into Canada through Sault Ste. Marie and the former Algoma Central.
Wisconsin Central still has title to the longest railroad receivership in history; 21 years. The modern WC consists of trackage spun off from the Soo Line when they took over the Milwaukee Road properties. WC owes their success to the very profitable Soo Line.
I worked there when I graduated in 2007. SD38ACe, SD70ACS. Spent time digging through all the old microfilm drawings & test reports of stuff from the 40s and 50s.
Thanks for explaining the history. I am now even closer to "knowing it all"!
Takeover by Caterpillar Progress Rail featured a lockout at the EMD plant in London, Ontario, and shifting all locomotive work to non union plants in right to work states in the US.
The locomotives built in London were the best ones built by EMD. Caterpillar shot themselves in the foot since the ones built in the a-mentioned plant were plagued with build quality issues.
Dude, you completely skipped over the SD45 and SD50 section of the story, with the latter bit being what killed their reign forever
The 2 cycle SD40's going to notch 8 is like music.
I’ve been trying to get into trains and this video helped thanks
Southern Pacific tunnel motors (SD 40/45T-2) are the most versatile freight locomotives ever produced and any of the SD 70 series beasts.
Them oil can pulling locomotives were neat but they sure were gas guzzlers though. I loved seeing the SD40t-2’s on the SP, SSW and DRGW!
@@chrisg7160 fuel burns out a lot more when it's pulling up a 2% grade in walong (Tehachapi Loop)!
BTW,as an aside,GM,as a car manufacturer has also hit the skids! Its products aren't doing so well! The truck division has many unsold units,and there,like Boeing,parking lots full of vehicles! When you have trucks,and SUV's selling for upwards of $75,000 dollars,with no buyers,in a recession/ depression,its a rather heavy millstone around the corporate neck! This is a highly condensed version of the current situation! Thank you for your attention ☺️! Thank you 😇 😊!!
We ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till the stuff really hits the fan, economically speaking. I hope GM, Ford and Ram enjoyed the outrageous profits they made on the trucks, and put them to good use(I doubt it........electrics no one wants). New trucks will be HEAVILY discounted, and you will be able to pick up nice used ones for fire sale prices, from people who have no choice but to sell, and repo's. My Supervisor at work just bought a 3/4 ton Ram for 83k. I told him in a year or two I might take it off his hands for 10k when he will not be able to make the payments on his necessities and "toys", and I am debt free.
Another fun fact: the 1010 engine is the 265 engine, although the ones they sell now have had their problems fixed with technology from Caterpillar.
Note that "EMD" actually stands for Electromotive Division since they were a division of General Motors.
Exactly!
Not since 2005. It was sold and renamed to Electro Motive Diesel, Inc. which is it's current name. it's kind of like the 'Sears tower' it was always be 'Division' to me. It is detailed at 21:50.
@@therockisland it was sold in 2005 to Cat, who then folded it into Progress Rail.
Ik people say darkness gets info wrong, but his content is srill fun to watch no matter how much he gets wrong
I'm disappointed that you never mentioned the F40PH once.
Nor the AEM-7 toasters too?
ASEA partnership with EMD for their electric units, ASEA was also the first to introduced the RC series.
Its worth noting emd still has a huge market share of the inland river. Id say 90% of your large size tow boats are powered by them.
Interesting, no mention of the SD50 locomotive. If I recall, EMD got a black eye due to the 645 prime mover experiencing crankshaft failures. 645 was pushed too far beyond it's design limits. Too bad.
You forgot to mention EMD ending production in LaGrange and moving all production to their London, Ont facility with a lot of quality control issues before moving everything to Muncie, Ind in recent years. Alot of GE's recent locomotive success came from GE Capital's ability to offer better financing on their products. Now that GE locomotives are WABTEC and EMD is a part of Caterpillar, we'll see what that does for both brands in the long haul.
Wabfart plant went on strike for 9 days when they took over GETS and 4 years later another contract rejection and strike. It's same GE managers just that they are bigger a-holes and CEO Rafael Santanadana is making 40 million a year and his panties are tighter than a nuns you know what you would.swear he's Justin Trudeau 2.0
Was at McCook during the Berkshire years... it was the definition of corporate limbo. 😢 Then is was Electro-Motive Diesel folks, not Division.
You gotta work on your sound. Listening to you gives me a headache. Other than that, good info.
Many of my family worked for GM and their division was sold off just like EMD, Detroit Diesel, among others. They seemed to loose interest in everything other than core auto production.
Another point is that sometimes when someone has a really good product, then eventually replaces it, the new product, especially with its teething problems will never meet the expectations based on the recently replaced model. The -2 line is hard to top. The Super Series was a real step up in technology. If EMD had pushed out the 710, instead of pushing 645 past its reliable limit, then things might have gone better.
The GM consolidation of EMC is to be seen as yet another piece of evidence in the entire Great American Streetcar Scandal, as well as GM’s way to get a stronger hold on class 1 Railroads.
Since EMD have some experience with electric locomotives as well, I wouldn’t be surprised if they continue to sell locomotives far into the future.
EMD stands for Electro-Motive DIVISION!!! Because it was a DIVISION of General Motors.
Once GM divested EMD, the name became Electro Motive Diesel.
I’ve live between a yard full of shunting GP9, GP10, SD60’s, SD38’s, SD40’s and SW900s and an old swinging train bridge..
no mention of the massive failure of the sd50?
Great expose on historical evolve of diesel electric locomotives .
17:19 DAM, THE MUSIC FROM THIS PART IS AMAZING!
It would be great if EMD were great again
I have a soft spot for the GP38-2's. My favorite locomotives but most are now 50 years old.
In 1997/1998 I was in discussions with EMD about a design for a new engine for their locomotive. To be fitted to the SD-45.
According to our specs while the SD-45 consumed 188 gal/hr while our design would run on 68gal/hr for the same output. Of course EMD was super interested. We were also in discussions with UP to fund the pilot program by pre-ordering at least 5 locomotives.
It all fell thru when we needed Patents to protect our technology and some of our college apprentices had mentioned it to their professor who turned it into a class project -- to make an amusement park 2-foot tall locomotive ("someday in the next 50 years maybe..."). The Patent office rejected the Patent on the basis that this university was already building them in the market. It ruined everything. I can't tell you my thoughts about the small sightedness of professors and many college students.
My gramma would say " damn yowns" around 1990 GE got a govt grant to tinker with burning a coal slurry as fuel instead of straight diesel. It did run but there were issues with carbon deposits fouling injectors and cylinders.
I had the "pleasure" spending time in a small main engine room on a WW2 LST (Landing Ship,Tank) back in the '60s with two V12 EMD 567s, a noise level few people get to experience...
I have seen them when touring the museum LST ship in Muskegon Mich.
Thanks mate. Great vid. Cheers.
EMD in London Ontario Built 20 Electric Powered Overhead Wires Locomotives for BC Rail One is On Display in Prince George BC at Rail Museum Very Unique Technology
The Progress Rail EMD SD709-ACE locomotives are selling albeit not like in the past. The big issues are Tier 3/4 compliance and not reliability anymore. If you can upgrade a GEVO to a Tier 3, that's millions of dollars less than say a new ET44. Both EMD and GE built locomotives that are ultimately too reliable. Likewise SD80s have been rebuilt to SD70M style models and still have a lot of useful life. For Class 1s, if they can rebuild and meet EPA rules then why buy new?
Ge Locomotives were never Reliable, most never get Rebuilt, Norfork southern one of the best in the world at Rebuilding tryed to rebuild ge Locomotives but gave up on it
@@dknowles60 Las locomotoras de GENERAL ELECTRIC en Argentina nunca tuvieron éxito, siempre se rompían, de hecho, solo hay muy pocas locomotoras en servicio de esta marca, por tirar un número 20 o menos locomotoras, de diferentes modelos, mientras que de GM más en servicio de 100 fácil, y de diferentes modelos.
Saludos!!!!
@dknowles60 The GENERAL ELECTRIC locomotives in Argentina were never successful, they always broke down, in fact, there are only very few locomotives of this brand in service, for pulling a number 20 or less locomotives, of different models, while GM's more in service of 100 easy, and of different models.
Greetings!!!!
nah man all the SD80s were sent to the scrap yard a couple of years ago it was a very sad day indeed
EMD is still the best of the best even if they aren't the most prolific. Their designs are better and always have looked better than GE. Caterpillar is also a great company even though EMD is owned by a subsidiary company. I just hope someday we have more cummins powered EMD locomotives.
Why would you want to see Cummins engines in EMDs?
@@ellisjackson3355 1 go listen to what that actually sounds like, 2, because it's a cummins.
@@ChargerusPrime ...I know what a Cummins sounds like. I've worked with the 6.7L medium duty engines in straight trucks and x15s in the big tractors. When they idle they sound to me like they are going to rattle themselves apart. I've seen an x15 with 48k miles with a giant hole in the block. Although in my small amount of experience with them, they seem to be solid and reliable. Yeah they're cool in pickup trucks because I would rather deal with a simpler turbo inline 6 within that engine bay space than a turbo v8. I would want a Detroit diesel 60 series in a big rig if I owned it. Now EMD 2 stroke engines are great in locos and I would like to see them there forever but we know 2 stroke aren't the most environmentally friendly. Got any other reasons why EMDs should run Cummins engines?
@@ellisjackson3355 well, my experience with my own 5.9l cummins is nothing but joyous running. There's actually already a locomotive with a cummins in it, look it up here on UA-cam. My other reasoning is to my knowledge it's a smaller prime mover that puts out the same amount of power but being smaller it can be put in other engine units. Such as all of amtraks new Siemens charger units which all have them.
Best looking? Alco PA.
Tons of information of the various competitors of small, medium and large companies, and the how , when & why the various manufacturers folded, were bought out , and /or eventually were over-run by the larger companies.. Scant and very abbreviated information of why certain designs worked well, and how other designs did not work so well.. No mention was made of the revolutionary air braking systems that George Westinghouse patented in 1869 that made rail travel so much safer... Many Other engineering improvements were developed for this extremely vital industry that vastly improved the safety, reliability and efficiency of the railroads.... How about more of those things being recognized? Just saying...
You forgot to mention the licensing of EMD to Europe.
Engines and entire locomotives were licensed.
NOHAB and others did build alot of on both ends a cab engines for European railroads.
The famous US F7 became the AA16 in Europe and was in use in Norway Denmark Belgium Luxemburg and Hungary.
They lasted till 2000 by main operators and several got a second live as private engines for f.e. track construction/ renewal trains.
The class 66 is also an EMD export design purposly designed for the smaller width UK network that became a succes in entire Europe.
Also some of RFFSA SD40-2 are built from Spain
Some of it's stuff is very long lived - especially some of the export locos like the EMD G12.
The G12 was exporterd mostly to South America and the Middle East in the 60ies. Some of those still run although in my country they no longer haul passenger trains, this honour is done mostly by EMD 710 based locos built in Spain.
Amusingly, that first trip on the Chicago Great Western had the doodlebug hauling a heavy business car all the way back west, which was a significant overload in terms of tonnage!
Thanks!
Watching the fall of EMD has been a little heartbreaking for me.
I think you forgot what really killed EMD: the God-awful SD50 models. Those models just pushed the 645 prime mover design just a bit too far and only a few hundred were built, and most of those SD50's were quickly retired/scrapped or converted back to SD40 prime mover configuration.
EMD stood for Electro-Motive Division when GM owned them.
This was the start of dieselisation movement in the states
Around 1936 full diesel by 1951. Except for the Norfolk and Western till 1961
GE locomotives aren't any better than the dash 2 line. Those locomotives are stellar. GM just shoots itself in the leg every ten years it seems.
Do "metropolitan camel" and "english electric"
Gracias Amigo!
You are forgetting that since 2018 GE Transportation merged with Wabtec. So GE is no longer a stand alone entity either.
So the most efficient way to move crap across the country, the EPA said not good enough, and caused all these issues. We all know that the semi's all pollute way way more than the locomotives do.
Electro Motive DIVISION !!!
As soon as Cat bought EMD, it began its decline. They care more about money than quality.
When will the once mighty GM learn their lesson? They messed up several times with small import fighting cars. Corsair and Vega ring a bell? Poor Quality Control didn't help, either. Remember the X cars. How about Chevy engines in Oldsmobile and Buick? You paid a premium price for them and ended up with Chevy parts, along with undersized Hydra-Matic transmissions that failed prematurely. I could go on and on. Nobody in my family drives GM cars anymore. We buy Japanese. Quality, endurance.
Want to go downhill fast? 1 word,Caterpillar...
Still, EMD locos are using in full swing India where electrification works are not completed specially in Rajasthan and North-east India. I used to travel Dargelling Mail,a NJP bound superfast express hauled by EMD loco, before 2020.Many express trains ran depending upon the power of these locos, but now, all of them are replaced by Electric traction.
I remember being told about emd being sold by gm, but i thought it was in the late 80s and it hurt gm pretty hard.
The gm class double ended b class is still being used in freight in Victoria Australia, but i think they were a copy.
We all know that OHIOAN Thomas Edison is the American with the most patents.
But do you know who is second?
OHIOAN Charles F Kettering.
Founder of Dayton Engineering Laboratories COmpany = DELCO
There is a large part of the story you left out, the class 59/ class 66, how they managed to take the UK, and then europe by storm and displace pretty much of EWS’s fleet (at the time) by about 98%
Do an episode on Winton engine
I love EMD
Electro-Motive Division became Electro-Motive Diesel after GM sold it off.
This town still has a memorial posted to remember the horrible fiery deaths when a doodle bug was rear-ended by a steam freight. Cuyahoga falls ohio
They’d still be a powerhouse of it wasn’t for the stupid tiered emissions demands mandated by government. Tier 4 engines are ridiculously over complicated and expensive for the amount of reduced emissions they emit.
What about all versions of the famous F40PH locomotives????
notification.....ON
On a scale of 1-10, any EMD you get on a train is at best a 5. Especially the 6-axle trash they make*. GE's are like 5-8 depending on how old they are but an AC GEVO is as close to 10 as you could get. They pull anything, their dynamic brakes actually exist, and they work! And the ergonomics are on a different level. Whatever an EMD can give you, a modern GE does better and more consistently. Take the dynamic brake for example, in a GE you can go into set-up and immediately get effort. On an EMD set-up thru Brake 2 gives you shit, then Brake 3 you get EVERYTHING at once, then Brake 4 they drop out again, and so on; like I said, TRASH. And the same goes for the passenger stuff. P42s are good and reliable even despite their age despite them basically being a version of the old Dash 8's, which had their own little issues but, the EMD equivalent to the Dash 8 was what? the SD60? lol, that pile of shit was a dumpster fire. F59s are PURE TRASH. 100% GARBAGE as well, nothing good about them, on the rare occasion their blended brake decides to show up, it's mediocre, might as well just use the BC. F40s, meh, foamers nut all over them but they had little quirks about them, they did run like hell when they worked. The issue was IF they worked. Either way, we were still in Vietnam when EMD last made a good locomotive.
*The SD70ACe can pull, but the cab is a deafening torture chamber. The newer T4 cabs they've come out with are a big improvement, but at the end of the day, it's still not as good as a C45AC.
Yeah, what he said. Retired engineer here. GM's final hour was the SD40-2, fantastic machines. Since then I was never a fan. The newer GE's are fabulous!! Its great being retired, that check shows up every month no matter where I am or what I'm doing!!
It's not "Electro Motive Diesel", it's "Electro Motive Division".... of General Motors.
It was renamed to electro motive diesel in 2005.
as far as GE goes every dog has its day
EMD stands for Electro Motive Division, not Diesel. Owned by General Motors
Nah, the best Diesel Locomotives in existence is the DB Br 242 and DB Br 218.4 and arguably the Br 118.2
A gm subsidiary falling? Not surprising
The original derms went to Australia too and then were copied.
I think the reason why what killed EMD was the SD50s.
The SD50s were complete dogs--t, as they suffered engine problems (crankshaft failures), cooling failures and complicated electronics which also leads to electrical issues.
Also WHAT HAPPENED TO EMD'S PARTNERSHIP WITH ASEA?
Yea EMD built electric powered units like the AEM-7 & GMD GF6C
The SD50 killed it anyways.
Caterpillar did that to somany companies....
Still would take a sd70 or sd40-2 over any ge engine
This fellow stated wow
It’s rather ironic that GE eventually fell and nearly went out of business, largely because of mismanagement and their financing division. The only reason GE is still a player in the North American Locomotive market is that EMD/ Progress rail is not a strong competitor. If Caterpillar were to spin off Progress Rail to someone like Siemens, who wants to compete actively in the North American market, I believe GE would lose much of its market cap.
You know that Wabtec owns the GE locomotive business now.
I would like to see a video about the history of rivarossi
You realize he won’t talk about model train companies. Monkey
21:50. Ah music to my ears. But, “they are too big to fail” said Uncle Sam, so he gave them our money. And they still make 💩
EMD means electromotive division 😂
It was renamed to Electro Motive Diesel in 2005.
Alec & Baldwin??
yuk yuk
a new Challenger approaches? let me know when a new Big Boy approaches
get ut hand off it !!!!!!!!!!
California is to blame. They have strict environmental standards and GE's GEVO came out about the same time and fit what they wanted and so the whole railroad landscape changed in 2005.