As a woman who really is just learning about solar and all I am loving these videos . You are helping me to understand so many things. I feel I actually can do these things to my rig . Thank you for taking the time to make these .
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong His statement was concerning mobile power...so maybe your scooter can use an $87 lead acid battery but smart people don’t put cheap batteries in their RV’s. $875 one time to have a true 100 amp hour battery for the next 10 years or more vs having only 35-50 available amp hours and having to buy new ones every few years...just doesn’t make sense. So stop being rude and realize that you are wrong. It takes 2 of your cheap lead acid batteries to equal 1 Battleborn so definitely not 10x more expensive. Have a nice day!
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong You could probably be a good source of information if you weren’t so rude. I’ve been maintaining batteries and vehicles probably since before you were born, forgive me if I’m wrong about you being young, but most mature adults don’t talk to other adults the way you do. I’m researching my options because quite frankly, I don’t want to hassle with checking batteries monthly. I’ve never used 6 volt batteries but I have been checking into them as well. My new coach has 4 lead acid batteries and they are a least a couple of years old and were not maintained properly because the previous Owner was a new RV owner and didn’t realize you had to maintain them. I’m not crazy about spending $875 x 2 to get 200ah but I’m considering it because I’m tired of worrying about batteries and at this stage of life I don’t have to. With that said, I did go to my local Battery Outfitters and looked at their Marine/RV deep cycle batteries today and the cost savings is worth investigating. They do weigh more as I’m sure your 6 volts do as well. I’m also considering AGM batteries but they also weigh a lot. I haven’t weighed this coach yet so I’m going to do that and use the info to help make my decision. What would an intelligent young man such as yourself 😄 recommend for someone who is frugal and doesn’t like to waste money but is not limited by a set budget? The marine batteries are 160ah deep cell for $105 or 180ah for $119, so I could do 4 of either of those for around $500 with installation or 2 Battleborn’s for $1,750 plus installation and not have to worry about them again for years or I could check into the 6 volt batteries. Thoughts?
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong my hassle comes in that the wires are all bunched up right inside the battery bay and it makes it difficult to pop up the caps...but I can deal with it lol my husband will be retired early at 57 but I will still be running my real estate company from the road so I will have time but I won’t be looking for projects to keep me busy lol I will be going back to my battery place tomorrow and see what they offer in the 6 volt variety. But I will also look at other options like amazon. I do understand how they work, sorry for making you type all that but I definitely appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinion. I do agree with you about the money so therefore I must not be wrong 😂😂😂 Thanks!
will i love your videos i am a 63 yr old guy retired dental tech still trying to be part of the changes taking place. i see you redesigning the soar industry i sense a solar generator you have make. sense you moved to san diego you have matured and focusing on great things keep up the great work wish you the very best. be happy
My micro r.v. with battleborn 100 amp hour battery runs refrigeration and Powers all my devices with no problems. Your direction has been invaluable thank you very much.
I priced out both lithium and lead acid for my offgrid system at my house and the difference was (for a 10Kw hr setup) $2700 for FLA and about $11k for the lithium. In order for me to stay out of debt I’d have to live off my generator for months and maybe years in order to save for lithium. Or I could just go and buy 4 of those FLA banks for the price of the one lithium bank. Look, we get it, lithium is superior in every way, but it’s still out of reach for poor off-grid/ homestead homies.
Mike Mead exactly my point. If I only needed 100-400Ah in a 12 volt configuration, lithium is probably the way to go. But when it comes to household offgrid systems, FLA is cheaper and more readily available. My batteries are new as of October so I should have plenty of time to wait for lithium prices to come down, maybe 3-5 years
In my boat I have a 450Ah 12V configuration for 380 euro. The discharge is never more than 180Ah and they last 8 years. A 200Ah Lithium bank would cost me 2400 euro, so the break evenpoint is about 48 years. Since 2003, when I bought this boat its the second set, wich wil last another 3-5 years.
But in reality were you pricing the same number of amp hours for both kinds? Or did price equal usable amp hours? If you price the usable amp hours, lithium still has a higher up front cost, but it might not be as extreme as you thought it was.
Roobah I talked about the equivalent storage capacity in watt hours (in my comment) which is a more realistic measurement of much power you have available to you. Read my comment again. Do you understand kilowatt hours?
@@Roobah These are the facts over a periode of 16 years. 2x225Ah in parallel liquid acid batteries have cost me 380 euro and have last 8/9 years with a max. discharge of 180Ah. 2x100Ah Lithium Ion batteries would cost 2400 euro (Netherlands) and do have a discharge rate of also about 180 Ah. So the Lithiums have to last about 6 times 8 years=48 years. When you calculate further on, the price per Wh is about the same, but I wonder if the Lithiums will last 48 years in this equasion. And as you said:"A higher up front cost".
Vango my friend, i am looking to get 2 aswell, do they store enough power for your system? are you limited? i’m looking to run a very basic system. (fridge, stove, phones, laptop) will i be good with 2 battlebirns?
why get the cheap beer when a one or two beers will put you over the legal limit oh wait that's just Canadian alcohol American stuff is watered down never mind hehe
My hobby is batteries. So I feel this is my new favorite channel. I like my 750amp hr 22.2v lithium battery(6s300p) powerwall. Building a 3s 200p battery for my trailer as well.
The LiFePO4 cells themselves are at price parity with lead acid. The price difference is the addition of the BMS and a proper contactor. I started pricing some pre-made large 48v LiFePO4 batteries in the range of 15-20kwh and found that I could build the same battery for about 1/6th the cost. I've just ordered 48 LiFePO4 cells to make a 43kwh battery and they are due in any day now. I'm replacing a 850ah forklift battery. One thing you left out Will, is water usage. I'm not sure if I was floating my forklift battery to high or what but it was going thru 3 liters of water a month I'm looking forward to a zero maint battery. Very good video and I commend US Battery for being so upfront with their data.
C/5,20,100 has been the battery rating convention for decades so it's no fault of the manufacturer and certainly not intended to be misleading. The problem is wrapping the complex conditions in a lay-friendly way which took you 13 minutes and I'm sure still left many of an impression rather than a full understanding.
@@WillProwse I haven't watched all of your videos, but the ones I've seen are quite interesting. One question I had was, have you considered adding a J1772 receptacle to your rig so you can take advantage of "shore power" available at EV charge stations? In Quebec (Canada), public charging stations cost the equivalent of about 75 cents per hour for the use of a 7kWh outlet which means you can more quickly charge your Tesla batteries rather than rely strictly on solar.
I noticed that those battle born batteries are half the weight of a typical Lead Acid, which makes a difference if he are in a vehicle / trailer where weight and MPG matter.
@hillbilly tech Gas works way better in the US than Diesel. our Diesel engines are now designed by the Environmental Protection agency and the maintenance cost exceed the fuel savings. Even school buses are switching back to Gasoline because of this.
@@walterblackledge1137 Diesel 4wds in Australia are not reliable largely because of the emissions technology fitted. Petrol powered 4wds though are bullet proof. Plus diesel fumes are so much more toxic to breathe in.
Love your video's an watch whenever I get the chance . Your the smartest kid I've seen on youtube when It comes to solar. And your absolutely right , most all people have no idea about their battery specs , or the rest of their system . What I really loved about this video is you just pissed these people off with your battery facts ! Great job !! Love it.
I forgot to ask if you could do a video on charging times please I’m interested in seeing the actual time it takes to charge the various batteries especially the difference between Lithium and lead acid batteries. Thank you again Cheers mate
I agree with what you are saying and I wouldn't say the manufacturers are misleading people, they are just using an industry standard to indicate the battery capacity. Understanding battery capacity relative to your own energy demand is important when choosing battery type and size. If you have small load demand or if you don't care about the added weight of a large AGM battery bank, lead acid batteries can be a cost effective option.
Indeed, but standard has changed and most battery manufacturers do not show coulombic efficiency, resistancy, thermal stability or the like, and people take that number that is advertised as a realistic estimate. I think the standard needs to change. But yeah, I agree with you.
i just bought a 4 pac of the 90ah liitokala Lifepo4 batteries on aliexpress. this and your aliexpress video convinced me to go for it for $186 plus bms
Thanks for your informative videos. Question for you, or your opinion. I have 200 watts of solar and 4 deep cycle batteries and a 2000 watts inverter. I run my Air Conditioning on batteries as much as 5 hours in my Roadtrek, I have done this maybe 8 times but have never seen any effect in my batteries stored amps, Normaly I do not leave batteries discharged and after a few hours driving and also with solar, my batteries would be charged to about 90%, and a few days back to 100%,. I have had these batteries 3 years, but they are still strong. I believe your comments 100%, but if what you say is correct I should have fried my batteries years ago. Sorry I think I made it more of a statement than question. Good luck to you, and thanks. One other piece of information I figured my ac load to be equivalent to about 65 amps DC. So that would be 325 amps in one five hour draw. Also they are the cheap Everstart deep cycle batteries.
This is why electric cars are no good up north like here in New England usable amps when below 32 degrees F or 0 C Drops the mileage you may get there but you may not get home . My friend Dr. Weston had a Lever electric he lived on a very steep hill in New Hampshire when going down the hill great Barley made it home up the hill !!! He rode the Caddy most of the time !!! Thanks for the great videos . I was a founding member of the Renewable Energy Industry of Nova Scotia in Canada and help author the N.S. Energy Strategies.
Hi, Will it's me again, always a great learning experience, even though my application works great for a deep cycle lead acid battery. It's only because of your explanations and taking things apart that I was able to avoid the high cost of the lithium, which for many of the things your referring to in this video, concerning high discharged rates they would be totally the right thing to have. Thanks for being there for us, working on my bug out scooter and trailer, still getting through the mechanical, then comes the wiring, for everything. P.S. I'm also in a very warm climate, which gives me a bit of a edge, and my use is occasional not continual, so cost is king in my world, even if I would need to replace the 105 amp deep cycle, I only paid 115.00 plus 12.00 core charge. Great video, always worth listening to and great knowledge to pass along.
Very well said. I think you have about the BEST review of the differences between battery's on the web. Factor in the fact that 100 amps of battle born is 29lbs and lead acid are 85lbs. Figure out the saving if you had 500 amp\hrs of lead, combined with the space saving as well it's a no brainer.
I have a Promaster we camp/travel in. I use a Jackery 1000 and it works great as it charges as we drive. We were off grid 4 days (in a parking lot in town) and on morning 5 my van battery was too low for start. Each day we would drive for coffee and other things but our luck ran out on keeping everything charged. Normally we travel and stay where we have power but this was a medical thing. A friend who changes batteries offered me as many SLA 1116 batteries as I want. They are back up batteries in machines and get changed every 2 years. They only have a load when if there is a power outage. He brought me 11 so I plan on a 10 battery bank. From what I see my peak load is 65 watts when my fridge is on. The van battery input is about 85 watts with the van off and 140 watts with the engine running. The BB battery would be awesome but with a never ending supply of these 18amp hour batteries and my low power draw wouldn’t it make sense to use them?
thank you for your videos!! i work in mobility scooter repair and 99% of these use deep cycle gell SLAs ive been trying to figure out how to explane to the old people the proper use and rating of their battries and why they have to replace them in a year or two...
As per usual Will you have a lot to teach people. I'm not a complete dimwit but I had to watch this one a couple times before I really figured out what you were saying. Keep it up bro!
Will, you make some valid points, but in the real world for RV solar use, I don't know of ANY full-timer RVer using solar as their primary electrical source, to EVER consume their battery packs in 5 hours! They HAVE to have power during the full solar night period, when no solar power is being generated, which is usually from an hour before sunset to an hour after sunrise. That means a minimum of about 15-16 hours of energy needed in the Winter in Arizona or Florida, and about 10 hours of energy needed in Montana in the Summer (most full-timer RVers travel to the South in Winter and to the North in Summer). And they're certainly not regularly running out of battery every night during those times - they usually would have consumed maybe HALF their AVAILABLE battery during that time, which means that their consumption rate should be considered at roughly the 20-30 hour rate....nowhere near a 5-hour rate. Secondly, it's NOT necessary for those of us with decent quality AGMs or FLA batteries to STRICTLY follow the "50% of usable capacity" assumption - the good battery manufacturers will almost always show the life cycles expected for different SOC% levels, and there is VERY LITTLE penalty for going a little deeper on the DOD% than 50% - especially if it is contained to around 25%-30% SOC or so. The life cycles do indeed drop with deeper DOD levels, but it's pretty much LINEAR between the 80% DOD and 30% DOD. On top of that, my own AGM manufacturer, Crown, for example, is quite happy for anyone to use their AGMs down to the 20% level, provided they are fully charged again as soon as possible. It would make little sense for me or anyone else, to build a bank that NEVER drops below 50% SOC as all we are really doing is spending money tied up in an unused battery bank (unless we are so worried about not having any sun for multiple days consecutively and don't have a generator to at least do some Bulk charging in those rare occasions. My comments are not meant as criticisms, only as added thoughts on what we full-timer RVers using solar extensively should consider in the real world. I would agree that my own circumstance may not be the same as everyone else's but I do think that much of what is said here is relevant to many folks like myself. :-) Thanks, as always, for a great video - the more we all learn from each other and share, the better. Your channel is an AWESOME resource. Barry.
Love your vids, really impressed. I figured if storage space isnt a problem, I went with 4 - 6 volt lead acid batteries with a 235 20 amp hour. Figured I got 200 usable amp hours for 480.00$ instead of 1600.00 for lithium. I am installing renogy dcc50s and in a bit 300 watt solar on truck. When batteries go to hell then might upgrade to lithium.
I got 14 7s 10p 24v battery pack getting ready to install batrims on 24v reliable inverter been building for last year can't wait to start it up this may
Great videos- It’s really nice to see videos that are putting out actual factual real life information. Another area where you might consider addressing is real life solar panel output, as rarely do you ever see the rated power of a solar panel (watts) being delivered as actual (power) charging current to a battery bank or load
Knowledge reduces the numbers of times we will be disappointed. Hopefully people will see this vid (thanks Will!) and will be battery wise. I just talked to a guy that removed 80 Ah Interstates (both were shot) and installed Odyssey in an Airstream. Problem is, he looked at price and since these are not cheap he ended up with two AGM 50 Ah (c20) at about $250 each... and wonders why his furnace kills the batteries in one night spent in cold temperatures. I am surprised that the furnace would actually run even one night.
Will, I wish I would have understood that before. I ended up buying carbon foam because of availability and price here in Canada. 4 x $400 Cdn for my sailboat bank. It fine but I discovered your channel after I got them.
Please answer a couple questions for us newbies. A 12 volt batter that’s rated for 100 amp hours, will usually give out half what’s advertised. I get that but let’s say to keep the numbers simple. If I receive 50 amp hours at 12 volts. That’s 600 wAtts. Does that mean that the batter would put out 600 watts for 50 hours? If so , does that mean the battery will now need to be charged for the first time ?
This is nice i finally know why my lead acid battery bank dies in about 4hrs i have got 4 trojan 225ah batteries at 24volts ( six volt each), so if I would upgrade to 4 battle born 12volt 100ah batteries. And specifically parallel connecting 2 and series 1 to make the battery bank a 24volt at 200ah, the battle born batteries would deliver more power. I really regret buying those 4 trojan batteries. Btw thanks for making this video it helps a lot so that new solar users don't make the same mistake.
Very informative & a most interesting presentation Will, thankyou; I up-ticked your video. I do however think w.r.t. battery types, it's "horses for course" & not just a straight line answer that LiFePO4 is always best. You come from an RV background & I therefore concur that where space & weight are at a premium, then Lithium batteries are very hard to beat. So on that I agree. However MY scenario is somewhat different. My house is not mobile & there's plenty of spare space. I have 5.75 kwp & 5,000 kwhs pa of PV generation potential & I'm now installing a SHTF battery backup system. I've just bought an SMA Sunny Island SI6.0H unit to connect with 4x 12v 220ah AGM batteries, (& yep they weight a ton, but I don't have to move them anywhere). Now usually I only use serious power draw only when the sun shines strongly +- 2-hours around mid-day when I have 100% of the solar power generation to power the big power loads. So 99% of the other times outside of that period I draw far smaller loads, most especially when the sun goes down & I have zero generation available. So during the hours of darkness, with a likely power draw of only 120-watts intermittent for the fridge/freezer & maybe a 50-watt draw for a laptop computer or low power TV & a LED light, then my new AGMs would hardly be stretched at all. The temperature (affecting SLAs) rarely declines to below 10 deg. C & the average operating temperature is probably around 15 deg. C over the year. So 95% of a typical year the 4x big honking AGMs will have a DOD of only around 5% - 10% before being gently recharged the next day when the sun powers everything up again. My system is currently grid-tied, & over the last few years the imported electricity that I consume from the grid is only around 120 kwhs pa, (yep I know that's really low, but my bills prove it, & my electricity supply company hate me as they don't make any profit from me - lol). This rather proves how little I draw from the grid when ever the sun is not shining & that I only consume electricity when the sun shines & the PV generates the power required. In conclusion I fully expect my 4x big honking AGMs to last over 15-years of very, very, light use per day. Eg. my car's SLA battery is still performing nicely after 16.5 years of light use. I bought the car new in 2003 (Ford Focus). Treat 'em nice & gently & they WILL last. I'm only installing this big home battery system in the unlikely event that we may be on the brink of a very deep recession & that life may be about to get extremely difficult for many & that the reliability of the UK national grid may become unstable (I am old enough to remember & have personally experienced the blackouts in the UK during the Oil Crisis, Miner's Strikes & the Winter of Discontent). So IF we endure grid-down blackouts & also its during the UK winter, only then will my new AGMs become stretched on such testing cold dark days. Horses for courses Will. Most times you are right & I respect your knowledge, but I am saying that there are exceptions & one size doesn't fit all. Please don't be offended Will, I love your videos. Best regards, JohnnyK from the UK (ex-mechanical design engineer).
Great info Will. It does reinforce the higher quality of Lithium. The fact that the Lithium batteries also last longer (age better) is an important one. We'll see what I decide to do next year, after I re-read your book this year :)
Great video as always lol. I found the information intriguing and spot on. I do have to say you might slow down a bit on your delivery lol. Sometimes it’s difficult to keep up with what you’re explaining lol. I’m guessing some of it is due to editing because there’s no way you spoke for 2 1/2 minutes without taking a breath lol. Thank you for all of the excellent and useful information and please keep going. I’m not into the solar stuff yet, I’m still trying to figure out how to switch over to Lithium batteries in a travel trailer. I’ll get to the solar next year lol Cheers mate
I live in the Philippines. Iit is very hot here. What type a battery would you suggest. I am currently using Gel batteries. Would you suggest another type of battery?
Put your lead acid batteries into refrigerator which you powered from all these batteries and everyone will be happy))) Would be nice if you provide kind of video which describes steps how to increase lead acid batteries efficiency for all those people who still use such systems. Thanks about your useful overviews.
Hi Will, thought I might give you some feedback from a 72 year old retired traveler: 1- Appreciate your enthusiasm and knowledge 2- I would dare to say A lot of your audience is over 60? 3- Its easy for us, even old engineers, fade after 20 minutes do to information overload. 4- Maybe you could slow down your commentary just a scosh? Blessings 👍😎😇
I'm installing a small solar system in my vehicle and lifepo4 is a huge investment, but room & weight is prime. In a house... that'd be a huge investment.
You left out two important issues. Cold weather and risk. You have to keep LiFePo4 batteries above freezing or you can damage them while charging. Therefore you have to sacrifice living space for the system (limited in an RV). You can heat the battery compartment but that effectively reduces the capacity of your storage for at least part of the year. Then there is risk. LiFePo4 may be safer than LiPo but even with lead acid you have large amount of electrical equipment you're dealing with. Most of that stuff probably isn't UL listed. Losing your RV to fire would be bad but what if this is for your house? DC is dangerous. You are dealing with high current with DC. I keep my entire system outside: charge controller, batteries, inverter, monitors. If it goes up, I lose my solar investment, but that's it. Something to consider.
You're right, the rule for the lead chemical batteries is divided capacity 10, the result is the maximum current (amp) of charge and above all discharge current, lithium batteries if discharged at 100% drastically reduces useful life, not it makes sense, as well as charging them 100% after the first time, 4 volts per cell, generally the LiFePo4 does not load more than 90% 3.6 / 3.8 Volt per cell and does not discharge over 60%, absolutely you never go below 80% DoD, use only 50% maximum 60% of their capacity, given the cost I want them to last as long as possible! lithium is the best, LiFePo4 resist and work and last without problems even at very low temperatures! Ciao
@Pietro. I agree LFP is terrific. I will correct the lead chemistry figures a bit. Flooded batteries typically charge at C/10 minimum and C/5 maximum. AGM typically charge at C/5 minimum to C/3 max, although some premium AGM state a minimum of C/3.
PbC are capable of thousands of cycles to 70% DoD. Totally agree with you for all other Pb deep-cycle batteries. It's a shame that lead-carbon marketing by the inventors failed so badly, but that failure seems to mean the that they're not enforcing their IP rights/protections. By the way, my batteries are rated for 2000A discharge for up to 5 seconds!
Will, this applies to deep cycling heavy load applications. In my RV I have solar and battery capacity to spare for cloudy days. The 5kW boiler is gas fired. So is the stove. No heavy loads. Just the light, gadgets and sporadically light converter use. And this is a very common application around here in Norway. I have a Victron battery monitor. I seldom see the battery below 70% state of charge. If the weather is poor for more than 3 days in a row, I will take more from the battery. This happens maybe 2-3 times a year. So I don't cycle the battery very low regularly, but If I have to, I can do it. Those few instances of deep cycling doesn't affect the life of the battery significantly. I dont believe the "you can use only 50%, rule" applies in all RV/solar applications. I tested and deep discharged my 4 year old 90Ah Varta LFH with 10A to 11V and got 80Ah out of it. That is very good! This battery costs $200-230 and will last for 10 years to me. In my application this setup beats liFePo4 batteries totally. I would not just slap in a LiFePo4 battery anyway. If that thing got hungry, it will probably fry my alternator. It has no cooling. BTW. Have a closer look at Varta LFH. Those letters "LFH" makes a big difference. Not the highest quality battery around, but price considered, it is the best I have seen so far. Rudy
There's a few parts in your video that I think might be confusing people. Take your example at 9:40 with the 100 AH lead acid battery being drawn at 100 amps, the capacity of the battery at that discharge current is 66 AH so to ensure long term battery life we should only use half of that capacity giving the 33 AH that you stated. However, you would never be able to discharge that battery at that current for one hour. The discharge rates are just that, rates. At a 100 amp current draw on that battery you would reach 50% depth of discharge in 33% of one hour or 20 minutes. You're technically not wrong it's just that people can't count on these batteries producing their rated discharge for the amount of time listed in that rate. You have to first cut the time in half to make sure the battery never goes below 50% depth of discharge and then account for the losses due to high current draw.
If you're drawing power at the 1 or 5 hour rate, you should probably have a larger bank. I'm running a DC chest freezer and chest refrigerator off a 586AH, 24v bank. They draw at about a 60 hour rate (when actually running), so the capacity is really more than 600AH (divided by 2, of course). Still lithium is the way to go if you can afford the HUGE up-front cost.
I bought 6 trojan 105 batteries. Put in 12 volt series and parallel. Cost. $1200. CAN About 250 usable AmpHrs. 2.5 times more than a 100 AmpHr battleborn and the same price.
All of those three factors affect all cells, not just lead acid. You *can* discharge a lead to 0% but it won't last many cycles. Same as most lithiums are damaged by total discharge. Last I chcked, Lithiums don't like cold even worse than leads dislike it. Peukert effect is a function of internal resistance which all cells have too. It's just that Lithiums tend to be affected less by Peukert due to typically very low internal resistance and can be discharged further than lead without damage. The old Nickel-Cadmium rechargeable cells require total discharge to retain full capacity (memory effect).
Constantly harping lithium great, lead acid no good in these videos, assuming conditions pretty much opposite my usage scenario, low drain rate, high temperatures. Small 12v RV fridge and a few led lights is the load. The fridge cycles longer at high temps than in cooler weather. Thousands of charge-discharge cycles do me little good if I only use the RV 20-30 days a year. I do agree that AGM is a poor value, as it's advantage is primarily in high current starting. I'll stick with $100 100Ah flooded cell vs $500 50Ah Lithium, both retail, not interested in "build it yourself" solutions or the cheapest no-name import off Amazon. Full time living off grid is not your only audience and I do appreciate your in-depth approach.
Will, you and most others are saying lead-acid batteries have 50% capacity of the marked Ah number. However, In my RV I rarely use more than 20% and it is topped up every day. This means if I once in a while needs more, I can discharde to 20% SOC and do so a few times without destroying the battery there and then. In this scenario 50% is "just pick a number between 20 and 80". 50% is too much if you cycling every dag and too little if you do it rarely, heavily dependent upon the type of battery. I can do more or I should maybe not go that far, depending on the application. Saying 50% is just misleading without the rest of the story. People I speak with actually believe it is safe to discharge to 50% and that there is a sudden break down at 50% on all lead-acid batteries because this 50% number is repeated so many times everywhere that is har become a truth. From your point of view, being very solar power oriented, 50% might be a bit more relevant, but still just a number between too much and too little. Solar systems are often cycled deeply every day. RV applications are often grid tied and getting much of the charging from the car alternator. I'm in Norway/Europe though. Maybe there are more solar-only powered rigs elsewhere. BTW, you are capable of making a video about this topic too.
You can discharge a flooded lead acid only upto 50%- That's not true. I don't know why I keep hearing that a lot. Yes, you will reduce the life of a battery if you discharge down to 50% but the battery is not going to stop you if you want to discharge down to 20% remaining. So, if you are in a bad situation, out of power for days, you can always rely on your FLA batteries. Normally, we calculate our Lead acid battery banks in such a manner that we don't go beyond 80%, but I repeat, nothing stops us from going down well below 50% if the need be. In fact, deep discharge, once in a while will not affect the life of batteries much. I am writing this while discharging my 12V, 4*200Ah tubular FLA batteries to 40%.
You're the bomb man you make this stuff a lot more understandable . I'm still using lead acid batteries they are six years old L16 s . When I do hydrometer test on these batteries they still read as good as they did brand new. They never get a very heavy load fact of the matter is I run the whole house on to 130 watt inverters I have a 2000 Watt inverter but I only use it to run big appliances in the kitchen occasionally or a corded tool outside. is the lack of a load on these batteries the reason they have lasted this long ?
Awesome topic and necessarily badly needed. Now for the real question. How do you use (and what numbers) a 24V system and 350W solar panels to run a mobile 24-hr AC and induction hot water and cooking setup that would run 60" tv and three or four computers, 5 security cameras, electric water pumps, cpap, and select comfort bed air pumps [all with no propane] in Texas! I am thinking at least 10 Lithium 100Ah and 6 panels, but maybe that is low?
And that's the reason I just purchased a single battleborn lithium battery for my RV. I will get more usable amps from it than I would from two 6-volt Trojans. Not to mention 31 lb vs 125 lb for the Trojans! Toss in the 10-year guarantee and it's a no-brainer.
If you are willing to do the work yourself, it is easy to build battery systems for 1/2 of what Battleborn charges. In my case, I was able to assemble a 30kWh battery bank for $5000. It consists of 16 surplus 600Ah LiFePO4 cells with external BMS and safety cutout relays. Each individual cell only weighs 44lbs which makes it easy for a single person to build and maintain the bank. Other things to consider are 1/2 the space, 1/3 the weight, no ventilation required, and no water management. The only time I have opened the battery box is when I am showing it to others. P.S. Every single lead acid battery I have ever used failed before 5 years time. These Li cells have not degraded at all over the course of the first year. Keep that in mind when you are tempted by the lower price of lead acid cells. Pay more up front and you are done.
After 30 years using all the available battery models, I am left with lifepo4 for the price, the capacity of discharge and the lifespan. And if I had the money, I would buy nickel iron batteries, although they have a high self-discharge rate, they are immortals.
What he’s discussing is really not an issue. When using solar panels it’s not an issue at all. You can get by just fine with a 100ah lead acid type so long as you’re not wanting to run heavy loads off it for prolonged period which is common sense anyway. Thank god for solar panels to replenish them throughout the day. Almost every industry uses trickery of some kind to more sweetly market their products. Good video though for people aren’t aware of the actual usable capacities.
Thanks for the data! Add the fact that most lead acid batteries available at local retail outlets only give you 'cold cranking amps' or 'reserve minutes' and not 'AH' and you have a recipe that is hard to work with and compare.
When li-ion batteries get hot during discharge that's I2R losses => can't have 100% round-trip efficiency. The same goes for heating while charging at high Cs. Peukert's effect in LAs AFAIK has to do with that too.
Great info. Can you do a video that compares brands and performance of different lithium batteries: Example: Battle Born, vs Renogy vs Tesla vs homebuilt lithium -- what makes them different in price per watt and overall usability? Which is best for high, normal, low draw RV use? How does overall power ratings affect lithium battery performance?
DakotaLithium has a group 24 - 1000 CCA 60AH LiFePO4 battery for $600: from website: Drop in replacement for lead acid and AGM starter batteries for vehicles. ---- NOTE: THE DL+ 60Ah IS LIMITED TO AN ALTERNATOR CHARGING PROFILE OF 80 AMPS OR LESS. But how do you start the car at 32F with the BMS automatic 32F Low temp protection? Add a heater?
How many batteries is too many batteries? As a beginner, I will probably start with a small system. However, I intend to expand it later rather than replacing it. I would like to add it to my home, and was wondering if I could expand the number of batteries before expanding solar panels, or upgrading my other equipment.
I found that using solar generators at high discharge rates with lithium ion cells did not live up to their amp hours but I might be confused. I had a 1000wh solar generator and a 2000wh solar generator and when I used high wattage appliances their amp hours decreased drastically. 😣😅
So how much would it cost a home 10kw lithium battery pack vs 10kw AGM battery pack.? Also after 10 years both battery's pack would need replacing with lead acid battery's there is money back when you recycled them approx 10%, and requires less monitoring overall. It would be a good show down AGM VS LITHIUM which is truly cheaper
As a woman who really is just learning about solar and all I am loving these videos . You are helping me to understand so many things. I feel I actually can do these things to my rig . Thank you for taking the time to make these .
Thank you!! Glad I can help
I’m trying to upgrade a travel trailer for a disabled veteran and these videos sure help.
As a man, I've had the same experience.
That's about the last nail in the coffin for lead acid in mobile power. I had never looked at those data. Thanks a ton for sharing bro.
yeppers
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong lol...well, I disagree and guess what...your math is wrong.
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong His statement was concerning mobile power...so maybe your scooter can use an $87 lead acid battery but smart people don’t put cheap batteries in their RV’s. $875 one time to have a true 100 amp hour battery for the next 10 years or more vs having only 35-50 available amp hours and having to buy new ones every few years...just doesn’t make sense. So stop being rude and realize that you are wrong. It takes 2 of your cheap lead acid batteries to equal 1 Battleborn so definitely not 10x more expensive. Have a nice day!
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong You could probably be a good source of information if you weren’t so rude. I’ve been maintaining batteries and vehicles probably since before you were born, forgive me if I’m wrong about you being young, but most mature adults don’t talk to other adults the way you do. I’m researching my options because quite frankly, I don’t want to hassle with checking batteries monthly. I’ve never used 6 volt batteries but I have been checking into them as well. My new coach has 4 lead acid batteries and they are a least a couple of years old and were not maintained properly because the previous Owner was a new RV owner and didn’t realize you had to maintain them. I’m not crazy about spending $875 x 2 to get 200ah but I’m considering it because I’m tired of worrying about batteries and at this stage of life I don’t have to. With that said, I did go to my local Battery Outfitters and looked at their Marine/RV deep cycle batteries today and the cost savings is worth investigating. They do weigh more as I’m sure your 6 volts do as well. I’m also considering AGM batteries but they also weigh a lot. I haven’t weighed this coach yet so I’m going to do that and use the info to help make my decision. What would an intelligent young man such as yourself 😄 recommend for someone who is frugal and doesn’t like to waste money but is not limited by a set budget? The marine batteries are 160ah deep cell for $105 or 180ah for $119, so I could do 4 of either of those for around $500 with installation or 2 Battleborn’s for $1,750 plus installation and not have to worry about them again for years or I could check into the 6 volt batteries. Thoughts?
IfYouDisagreeYouAreWrong my hassle comes in that the wires are all bunched up right inside the battery bay and it makes it difficult to pop up the caps...but I can deal with it lol my husband will be retired early at 57 but I will still be running my real estate company from the road so I will have time but I won’t be looking for projects to keep me busy lol I will be going back to my battery place tomorrow and see what they offer in the 6 volt variety. But I will also look at other options like amazon. I do understand how they work, sorry for making you type all that but I definitely appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinion. I do agree with you about the money so therefore I must not be wrong 😂😂😂 Thanks!
will i love your videos i am a 63 yr old guy retired dental tech still trying to be part of the changes
taking place. i see you redesigning the soar industry i sense a solar generator you have make. sense you moved to san diego you have matured and focusing on great things keep up the great work wish you the very best. be happy
My micro r.v. with battleborn 100 amp hour battery runs refrigeration and Powers all my devices with no problems. Your direction has been invaluable thank you very much.
To see what batteries I currently recommend, check out my website: www.mobile-solarpower.com/
I priced out both lithium and lead acid for my offgrid system at my house and the difference was (for a 10Kw hr setup) $2700 for FLA and about $11k for the lithium. In order for me to stay out of debt I’d have to live off my generator for months and maybe years in order to save for lithium. Or I could just go and buy 4 of those FLA banks for the price of the one lithium bank. Look, we get it, lithium is superior in every way, but it’s still out of reach for poor off-grid/ homestead homies.
Mike Mead exactly my point. If I only needed 100-400Ah in a 12 volt configuration, lithium is probably the way to go. But when it comes to household offgrid systems, FLA is cheaper and more readily available. My batteries are new as of October so I should have plenty of time to wait for lithium prices to come down, maybe 3-5 years
In my boat I have a 450Ah 12V configuration for 380 euro. The discharge is never more than 180Ah and they last 8 years. A 200Ah Lithium bank would cost me 2400 euro, so the break evenpoint is about 48 years. Since 2003, when I bought this boat its the second set, wich wil last another 3-5 years.
But in reality were you pricing the same number of amp hours for both kinds? Or did price equal usable amp hours? If you price the usable amp hours, lithium still has a higher up front cost, but it might not be as extreme as you thought it was.
Roobah I talked about the equivalent storage capacity in watt hours (in my comment) which is a more realistic measurement of much power you have available to you. Read my comment again. Do you understand kilowatt hours?
@@Roobah These are the facts over a periode of 16 years. 2x225Ah in parallel liquid acid batteries have cost me 380 euro and have last 8/9 years with a max. discharge of 180Ah. 2x100Ah Lithium Ion batteries would cost 2400 euro (Netherlands) and do have a discharge rate of also about 180 Ah. So the Lithiums have to last about 6 times 8 years=48 years. When you calculate further on, the price per Wh is about the same, but I wonder if the Lithiums will last 48 years in this equasion. And as you said:"A higher up front cost".
I listen to many who say they know, but you are my favorite. To the point but with the details and good explanatuon. You definitely have a gift.
Kind of amazing I don't hear this information anywhere else. Nice to hear someone with good information and present it concisely.
You are the best. No question about it. Keep it up. Keep going at your current rate. You have an infinite discharge rate. Undeniable.
My two 100ah Battle Borns are the coolest thing I have ever spent money on!
Vango my friend, i am looking to get 2 aswell,
do they store enough power for your system?
are you limited?
i’m looking to run a very basic system. (fridge, stove, phones, laptop)
will i be good with 2 battlebirns?
You are a wealth of knowledge. I have to watch each video multiple times to try and catch all you talk about! Thanks for all your work.
I think it's cool that I actually understand what you are saying. Thanks Will, for making this video so applicable...lol
Thank you Will for explaining all this so I actually understand this stuff.
I've noticed the cheaper beers have a different algorithm too, thus increasing the pukehard effect.
Don't even get me started on the vodka pukehard effect! Consumption rates definitely matter.
You reek of caca and moldy cheese 🧀
why get the cheap beer when a one or two beers will put you over the legal limit oh wait that's just Canadian alcohol American stuff is watered down never mind hehe
😂👌🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Ahhhh, nerd jokes! I love it!!
My hobby is batteries. So I feel this is my new favorite channel. I like my 750amp hr 22.2v lithium battery(6s300p) powerwall. Building a 3s 200p battery for my trailer as well.
The LiFePO4 cells themselves are at price parity with lead acid. The price difference is the addition of the BMS and a proper contactor. I started pricing some pre-made large 48v LiFePO4 batteries in the range of 15-20kwh and found that I could build the same battery for about 1/6th the cost. I've just ordered 48 LiFePO4 cells to make a 43kwh battery and they are due in any day now. I'm replacing a 850ah forklift battery. One thing you left out Will, is water usage. I'm not sure if I was floating my forklift battery to high or what but it was going thru 3 liters of water a month I'm looking forward to a zero maint battery. Very good video and I commend US Battery for being so upfront with their data.
C/5,20,100 has been the battery rating convention for decades so it's no fault of the manufacturer and certainly not intended to be misleading. The problem is wrapping the complex conditions in a lay-friendly way which took you 13 minutes and I'm sure still left many of an impression rather than a full understanding.
Just changed title of video. Good point
@@WillProwse I haven't watched all of your videos, but the ones I've seen are quite interesting. One question I had was, have you considered adding a J1772 receptacle to your rig so you can take advantage of "shore power" available at EV charge stations? In Quebec (Canada), public charging stations cost the equivalent of about 75 cents per hour for the use of a 7kWh outlet which means you can more quickly charge your Tesla batteries rather than rely strictly on solar.
I noticed that those battle born batteries are half the weight of a typical Lead Acid, which makes a difference if he are in a vehicle / trailer where weight and MPG matter.
American vehicles get 'gallons per mile' so the weight of a battery is irrelevant. The weight of the american occupants is significant though !!
@@procatprocat9647 haha. guilty.
@hillbilly tech Gas works way better in the US than Diesel. our Diesel engines are now designed by the Environmental Protection agency and the maintenance cost exceed the fuel savings. Even school buses are switching back to Gasoline because of this.
@@walterblackledge1137
Diesel 4wds in Australia are not reliable largely because of the emissions technology fitted. Petrol powered 4wds though are bullet proof. Plus diesel fumes are so much more toxic to breathe in.
@@cliffbooth7075 diesel is bullet proof in developing world where emissions rules are non existent.
Love your video's an watch whenever I get the chance . Your the smartest kid I've seen on youtube when It comes to solar. And your absolutely right , most all people have no idea about their battery specs , or the rest of their system . What I really loved about this video is you just pissed these people off with your battery facts ! Great job !! Love it.
Couldn't help but howl @ 11:00 ... my trojan is bigger than yours! LMAO
You are the best out their thank you.Your voice your actions you are A natural
Great explanation. Can you now put a video out about charging times and include temperature efficiency in cold.
I forgot to ask if you could do a video on charging times please
I’m interested in seeing the actual time it takes to charge the various batteries especially the difference between Lithium and lead acid batteries. Thank you again
Cheers mate
I agree with what you are saying and I wouldn't say the manufacturers are misleading people, they are just using an industry standard to indicate the battery capacity. Understanding battery capacity relative to your own energy demand is important when choosing battery type and size. If you have small load demand or if you don't care about the added weight of a large AGM battery bank, lead acid batteries can be a cost effective option.
Indeed, but standard has changed and most battery manufacturers do not show coulombic efficiency, resistancy, thermal stability or the like, and people take that number that is advertised as a realistic estimate. I think the standard needs to change. But yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah and discharge rate of lead acid for short, high amperage loads is great. They serve their application well.
Amazing way of explaining this effect! thanks Will! love your videos
Thanks for this great video Will. Now its clear to me to choose lithium for my solar build. Glad I found your channel!!
William for president✌️👍✌🏼Excellent video
i just bought a 4 pac of the 90ah liitokala Lifepo4 batteries on aliexpress. this and your aliexpress video convinced me to go for it for $186 plus bms
Good job Will, keep those battery people honest.
Thanks for your informative videos. Question for you, or your opinion. I have 200 watts of solar and 4 deep cycle batteries and a 2000 watts inverter. I run my Air Conditioning on batteries as much as 5 hours in my Roadtrek, I have done this maybe 8 times but have never seen any effect in my batteries stored amps, Normaly I do not leave batteries discharged and after a few hours driving and also with solar, my batteries would be charged to about 90%, and a few days back to 100%,. I have had these batteries 3 years, but they are still strong. I believe your comments 100%, but if what you say is correct I should have fried my batteries years ago. Sorry I think I made it more of a statement than question. Good luck to you, and thanks. One other piece of information I figured my ac load to be equivalent to about 65 amps DC. So that would be 325 amps in one five hour draw. Also they are the cheap Everstart deep cycle batteries.
was just thinking about this last week all week. You get what you pay for!
Excellent!!! Easy to understand plain language.
Thanks you, very useful information. Greetings from sunny Jamaica.
This is why electric cars are no good up north like here in New England usable amps when below 32 degrees F or 0 C
Drops the mileage you may get there but you may not get home .
My friend Dr. Weston had a Lever electric he lived on a very steep hill in New Hampshire when going down the hill great Barley made it home up the hill !!!
He rode the Caddy most of the time !!!
Thanks for the great videos . I was a founding member of the Renewable Energy Industry of Nova Scotia in Canada and help author the N.S. Energy Strategies.
Le Car
Hi, Will it's me again, always a great learning experience, even though my application works great for a deep cycle lead acid battery. It's only because of your explanations and taking things apart that I was able to avoid the high cost of the lithium, which for many of the things your referring to in this video, concerning high discharged rates they would be totally the right thing to have.
Thanks for being there for us, working on my bug out scooter and trailer, still getting through the mechanical, then comes the wiring, for everything. P.S. I'm also in a very warm climate, which gives me a bit of a edge, and my use is occasional not continual, so cost is king in my world, even if I would need to replace the 105 amp deep cycle, I only paid 115.00 plus 12.00 core charge. Great video, always worth listening to and great knowledge to pass along.
what type of battery are you talking about? I dont know if these are a good deal I bought from Costco: 6v Ah@20hr =210 / RC 105 I paid 89.00
Very well said. I think you have about the BEST review of the differences between battery's on the web. Factor in the fact that 100 amps of battle born is 29lbs and lead acid are 85lbs. Figure out the saving if you had 500 amp\hrs of lead, combined with the space saving as well it's a no brainer.
Yes, Li is a good fit for many people.
I have a Promaster we camp/travel in. I use a Jackery 1000 and it works great as it charges as we drive. We were off grid 4 days (in a parking lot in town) and on morning 5 my van battery was too low for start. Each day we would drive for coffee and other things but our luck ran out on keeping everything charged. Normally we travel and stay where we have power but this was a medical thing. A friend who changes batteries offered me as many SLA 1116 batteries as I want. They are back up batteries in machines and get changed every 2 years. They only have a load when if there is a power outage. He brought me 11 so I plan on a 10 battery bank. From what I see my peak load is 65 watts when my fridge is on. The van battery input is about 85 watts with the van off and 140 watts with the engine running. The BB battery would be awesome but with a never ending supply of these 18amp hour batteries and my low power draw wouldn’t it make sense to use them?
thank you for your videos!! i work in mobility scooter repair and 99% of these use deep cycle gell SLAs ive been trying to figure out how to explane to the old people the proper use and rating of their battries and why they have to replace them in a year or two...
Good thing that we have U to tell us the ture.Thank you
As per usual Will you have a lot to teach people. I'm not a complete dimwit but I had to watch this one a couple times before I really figured out what you were saying. Keep it up bro!
Will, you make some valid points, but in the real world for RV solar use, I don't know of ANY full-timer RVer using solar as their primary electrical source, to EVER consume their battery packs in 5 hours! They HAVE to have power during the full solar night period, when no solar power is being generated, which is usually from an hour before sunset to an hour after sunrise. That means a minimum of about 15-16 hours of energy needed in the Winter in Arizona or Florida, and about 10 hours of energy needed in Montana in the Summer (most full-timer RVers travel to the South in Winter and to the North in Summer). And they're certainly not regularly running out of battery every night during those times - they usually would have consumed maybe HALF their AVAILABLE battery during that time, which means that their consumption rate should be considered at roughly the 20-30 hour rate....nowhere near a 5-hour rate. Secondly, it's NOT necessary for those of us with decent quality AGMs or FLA batteries to STRICTLY follow the "50% of usable capacity" assumption - the good battery manufacturers will almost always show the life cycles expected for different SOC% levels, and there is VERY LITTLE penalty for going a little deeper on the DOD% than 50% - especially if it is contained to around 25%-30% SOC or so. The life cycles do indeed drop with deeper DOD levels, but it's pretty much LINEAR between the 80% DOD and 30% DOD. On top of that, my own AGM manufacturer, Crown, for example, is quite happy for anyone to use their AGMs down to the 20% level, provided they are fully charged again as soon as possible. It would make little sense for me or anyone else, to build a bank that NEVER drops below 50% SOC as all we are really doing is spending money tied up in an unused battery bank (unless we are so worried about not having any sun for multiple days consecutively and don't have a generator to at least do some Bulk charging in those rare occasions. My comments are not meant as criticisms, only as added thoughts on what we full-timer RVers using solar extensively should consider in the real world. I would agree that my own circumstance may not be the same as everyone else's but I do think that much of what is said here is relevant to many folks like myself. :-) Thanks, as always, for a great video - the more we all learn from each other and share, the better. Your channel is an AWESOME resource. Barry.
Love your vids, really impressed. I figured if storage space isnt a problem, I went with 4 - 6 volt lead acid batteries with a 235 20 amp hour. Figured I got 200 usable amp hours for 480.00$ instead of 1600.00 for lithium. I am installing renogy dcc50s and in a bit 300 watt solar on truck. When batteries go to hell then might upgrade to lithium.
I got 14 7s 10p 24v battery pack getting ready to install batrims on 24v reliable inverter been building for last year can't wait to start it up this may
Great videos- It’s really nice to see videos that are putting out actual factual real life information. Another area where you might consider addressing is real life solar panel output, as rarely do you ever see the rated power of a solar panel (watts) being delivered as actual (power) charging current to a battery bank or load
I'm soooo I'm pressed your knowledge and the way you explain things. Thank you so much for your channel. Wow.
I just bought some 12v 100ah cheep-o brand batteries for $170ea! Times have changed in 5yrs since this video was made.
Knowledge reduces the numbers of times we will be disappointed. Hopefully people will see this vid (thanks Will!) and will be battery wise. I just talked to a guy that removed 80 Ah Interstates (both were shot) and installed Odyssey in an Airstream. Problem is, he looked at price and since these are not cheap he ended up with two AGM 50 Ah (c20) at about $250 each... and wonders why his furnace kills the batteries in one night spent in cold temperatures. I am surprised that the furnace would actually run even one night.
Will, I wish I would have understood that before.
I ended up buying carbon foam because of availability and price here in Canada. 4 x $400 Cdn for my sailboat bank. It fine but I discovered your channel after I got them.
Please answer a couple questions for us newbies. A 12 volt batter that’s rated for 100 amp hours, will usually give out half what’s advertised. I get that but let’s say to keep the numbers simple. If I receive 50 amp hours at 12 volts. That’s 600 wAtts. Does that mean that the batter would put out 600 watts for 50 hours? If so , does that mean the battery will now need to be charged for the first time ?
This is nice i finally know why my lead acid battery bank dies in about 4hrs i have got 4 trojan 225ah batteries at 24volts ( six volt each), so if I would upgrade to 4 battle born 12volt 100ah batteries. And specifically parallel connecting 2 and series 1 to make the battery bank a 24volt at 200ah, the battle born batteries would deliver more power. I really regret buying those 4 trojan batteries. Btw thanks for making this video it helps a lot so that new solar users don't make the same mistake.
Very informative & a most interesting presentation Will, thankyou; I up-ticked your video.
I do however think w.r.t. battery types, it's "horses for course" & not just a straight line answer that LiFePO4 is always best. You come from an RV background & I therefore concur that where space & weight are at a premium, then Lithium batteries are very hard to beat. So on that I agree.
However MY scenario is somewhat different. My house is not mobile & there's plenty of spare space. I have 5.75 kwp & 5,000 kwhs pa of PV generation potential & I'm now installing a SHTF battery backup system. I've just bought an SMA Sunny Island SI6.0H unit to connect with 4x 12v 220ah AGM batteries, (& yep they weight a ton, but I don't have to move them anywhere). Now usually I only use serious power draw only when the sun shines strongly +- 2-hours around mid-day when I have 100% of the solar power generation to power the big power loads. So 99% of the other times outside of that period I draw far smaller loads, most especially when the sun goes down & I have zero generation available.
So during the hours of darkness, with a likely power draw of only 120-watts intermittent for the fridge/freezer & maybe a 50-watt draw for a laptop computer or low power TV & a LED light, then my new AGMs would hardly be stretched at all. The temperature (affecting SLAs) rarely declines to below 10 deg. C & the average operating temperature is probably around 15 deg. C over the year. So 95% of a typical year the 4x big honking AGMs will have a DOD of only around 5% - 10% before being gently recharged the next day when the sun powers everything up again.
My system is currently grid-tied, & over the last few years the imported electricity that I consume from the grid is only around 120 kwhs pa, (yep I know that's really low, but my bills prove it, & my electricity supply company hate me as they don't make any profit from me - lol). This rather proves how little I draw from the grid when ever the sun is not shining & that I only consume electricity when the sun shines & the PV generates the power required.
In conclusion I fully expect my 4x big honking AGMs to last over 15-years of very, very, light use per day. Eg. my car's SLA battery is still performing nicely after 16.5 years of light use. I bought the car new in 2003 (Ford Focus). Treat 'em nice & gently & they WILL last. I'm only installing this big home battery system in the unlikely event that we may be on the brink of a very deep recession & that life may be about to get extremely difficult for many & that the reliability of the UK national grid may become unstable (I am old enough to remember & have personally experienced the blackouts in the UK during the Oil Crisis, Miner's Strikes & the Winter of Discontent). So IF we endure grid-down blackouts & also its during the UK winter, only then will my new AGMs become stretched on such testing cold dark days.
Horses for courses Will. Most times you are right & I respect your knowledge, but I am saying that there are exceptions & one size doesn't fit all. Please don't be offended Will, I love your videos.
Best regards, JohnnyK from the UK (ex-mechanical design engineer).
Great info Will. It does reinforce the higher quality of Lithium. The fact that the Lithium batteries also last longer (age better) is an important one. We'll see what I decide to do next year, after I re-read your book this year :)
Great video as always lol. I found the information intriguing and spot on. I do have to say you might slow down a bit on your delivery lol. Sometimes it’s difficult to keep up with what you’re explaining lol. I’m guessing some of it is due to editing because there’s no way you spoke for 2 1/2 minutes without taking a breath lol.
Thank you for all of the excellent and useful information and please keep going. I’m not into the solar stuff yet, I’m still trying to figure out how to switch over to Lithium batteries in a travel trailer. I’ll get to the solar next year lol
Cheers mate
I live in the Philippines. Iit is very hot here. What type a battery would you suggest. I am currently using Gel batteries. Would you suggest another type of battery?
Put your lead acid batteries into refrigerator which you powered from all these batteries and everyone will be happy)))
Would be nice if you provide kind of video which describes steps how to increase lead acid batteries efficiency for all those people who still use such systems.
Thanks about your useful overviews.
Hi Will, thought I might give you some feedback from a 72 year old retired traveler: 1- Appreciate your enthusiasm and knowledge 2- I would dare to say A lot of your audience is over 60? 3- Its easy for us, even old engineers, fade after 20 minutes do to information overload. 4- Maybe you could slow down your commentary just a scosh? Blessings 👍😎😇
You do a great job teaching about batteries. Faved and subscribed.
School in session, thanks again.
This video is super helpful. Thanks for telling it like it is.
Great video - coming from someone who choose Lithium over Lead Acid a couple years ago
I'm installing a small solar system in my vehicle and lifepo4 is a huge investment, but room & weight is prime. In a house... that'd be a huge investment.
You left out two important issues. Cold weather and risk. You have to keep LiFePo4 batteries above freezing or you can damage them while charging. Therefore you have to sacrifice living space for the system (limited in an RV). You can heat the battery compartment but that effectively reduces the capacity of your storage for at least part of the year. Then there is risk. LiFePo4 may be safer than LiPo but even with lead acid you have large amount of electrical equipment you're dealing with. Most of that stuff probably isn't UL listed. Losing your RV to fire would be bad but what if this is for your house? DC is dangerous. You are dealing with high current with DC. I keep my entire system outside: charge controller, batteries, inverter, monitors. If it goes up, I lose my solar investment, but that's it. Something to consider.
You're right, the rule for the lead chemical batteries is divided capacity 10, the result is the maximum current (amp) of charge and above all discharge current, lithium batteries if discharged at 100% drastically reduces useful life, not it makes sense, as well as charging them 100% after the first time, 4 volts per cell, generally the LiFePo4 does not load more than 90% 3.6 / 3.8 Volt per cell and does not discharge over 60%, absolutely you never go below 80% DoD, use only 50% maximum 60% of their capacity, given the cost I want them to last as long as possible! lithium is the best, LiFePo4 resist and work and last without problems even at very low temperatures!
Ciao
@Pietro. I agree LFP is terrific. I will correct the lead chemistry figures a bit. Flooded batteries typically charge at C/10 minimum and C/5 maximum. AGM typically charge at C/5 minimum to C/3 max, although some premium AGM state a minimum of C/3.
PbC are capable of thousands of cycles to 70% DoD. Totally agree with you for all other Pb deep-cycle batteries. It's a shame that lead-carbon marketing by the inventors failed so badly, but that failure seems to mean the that they're not enforcing their IP rights/protections. By the way, my batteries are rated for 2000A discharge for up to 5 seconds!
What interests me is the recyclability of batteries, how do different types of battery compare 🤔
Will, this applies to deep cycling heavy load applications. In my RV I have solar and battery capacity to spare for cloudy days. The 5kW boiler is gas fired. So is the stove. No heavy loads. Just the light, gadgets and sporadically light converter use. And this is a very common application around here in Norway. I have a Victron battery monitor. I seldom see the battery below 70% state of charge. If the weather is poor for more than 3 days in a row, I will take more from the battery. This happens maybe 2-3 times a year. So I don't cycle the battery very low regularly, but If I have to, I can do it. Those few instances of deep cycling doesn't affect the life of the battery significantly. I dont believe the "you can use only 50%, rule" applies in all RV/solar applications.
I tested and deep discharged my 4 year old 90Ah Varta LFH with 10A to 11V and got 80Ah out of it. That is very good! This battery costs $200-230 and will last for 10 years to me. In my application this setup beats liFePo4 batteries totally. I would not just slap in a LiFePo4 battery anyway. If that thing got hungry, it will probably fry my alternator. It has no cooling.
BTW. Have a closer look at Varta LFH. Those letters "LFH" makes a big difference. Not the highest quality battery around, but price considered, it is the best I have seen so far.
Rudy
Is your battery still holding up? I was considering the same for a low-load backup power supply.
@@motog6436 cant tell. Sold the RV.
There's a few parts in your video that I think might be confusing people. Take your example at 9:40 with the 100 AH lead acid battery being drawn at 100 amps, the capacity of the battery at that discharge current is 66 AH so to ensure long term battery life we should only use half of that capacity giving the 33 AH that you stated. However, you would never be able to discharge that battery at that current for one hour. The discharge rates are just that, rates. At a 100 amp current draw on that battery you would reach 50% depth of discharge in 33% of one hour or 20 minutes.
You're technically not wrong it's just that people can't count on these batteries producing their rated discharge for the amount of time listed in that rate. You have to first cut the time in half to make sure the battery never goes below 50% depth of discharge and then account for the losses due to high current draw.
Fair point
If you're drawing power at the 1 or 5 hour rate, you should probably have a larger bank. I'm running a DC chest freezer and chest refrigerator off a 586AH, 24v bank. They draw at about a 60 hour rate (when actually running), so the capacity is really more than 600AH (divided by 2, of course). Still lithium is the way to go if you can afford the HUGE up-front cost.
That's awesome! And yeah you get it.
That was the best informative video yet
I bought 6 trojan 105 batteries. Put in 12 volt series and parallel. Cost. $1200. CAN
About 250 usable AmpHrs.
2.5 times more than a 100 AmpHr battleborn and the same price.
As always informative and on point. Keep up the good work.
All of those three factors affect all cells, not just lead acid. You *can* discharge a lead to 0% but it won't last many cycles. Same as most lithiums are damaged by total discharge. Last I chcked, Lithiums don't like cold even worse than leads dislike it. Peukert effect is a function of internal resistance which all cells have too. It's just that Lithiums tend to be affected less by Peukert due to typically very low internal resistance and can be discharged further than lead without damage. The old Nickel-Cadmium rechargeable cells require total discharge to retain full capacity (memory effect).
I just bought a V-guard VT160 Ah tall tubular lead acid which comes with 2 year replacement warranty. Cos no local vendors are selling LiFePO4 😢
Constantly harping lithium great, lead acid no good in these videos, assuming conditions pretty much opposite my usage scenario, low drain rate, high temperatures. Small 12v RV fridge and a few led lights is the load. The fridge cycles longer at high temps than in cooler weather. Thousands of charge-discharge cycles do me little good if I only use the RV 20-30 days a year. I do agree that AGM is a poor value, as it's advantage is primarily in high current starting. I'll stick with $100 100Ah flooded cell vs $500 50Ah Lithium, both retail, not interested in "build it yourself" solutions or the cheapest no-name import off Amazon. Full time living off grid is not your only audience and I do appreciate your in-depth approach.
Will, you and most others are saying lead-acid batteries have 50% capacity of the marked Ah number. However, In my RV I rarely use more than 20% and it is topped up every day. This means if I once in a while needs more, I can discharde to 20% SOC and do so a few times without destroying the battery there and then. In this scenario 50% is "just pick a number between 20 and 80". 50% is too much if you cycling every dag and too little if you do it rarely, heavily dependent upon the type of battery. I can do more or I should maybe not go that far, depending on the application. Saying 50% is just misleading without the rest of the story. People I speak with actually believe it is safe to discharge to 50% and that there is a sudden break down at 50% on all lead-acid batteries because this 50% number is repeated so many times everywhere that is har become a truth.
From your point of view, being very solar power oriented, 50% might be a bit more relevant, but still just a number between too much and too little. Solar systems are often cycled deeply every day. RV applications are often grid tied and getting much of the charging from the car alternator. I'm in Norway/Europe though. Maybe there are more solar-only powered rigs elsewhere.
BTW, you are capable of making a video about this topic too.
Thank you for your response and knowlege
True enough, but lifepo4 not recommended for traditional car alternators, which can run hot due to the low resistance in those bats.
You can discharge a flooded lead acid only upto 50%- That's not true. I don't know why I keep hearing that a lot. Yes, you will reduce the life of a battery if you discharge down to 50% but the battery is not going to stop you if you want to discharge down to 20% remaining. So, if you are in a bad situation, out of power for days, you can always rely on your FLA batteries. Normally, we calculate our Lead acid battery banks in such a manner that we don't go beyond 80%, but I repeat, nothing stops us from going down well below 50% if the need be. In fact, deep discharge, once in a while will not affect the life of batteries much. I am writing this while discharging my 12V, 4*200Ah tubular FLA batteries to 40%.
You're the bomb man you make this stuff a lot more understandable . I'm still using lead acid batteries they are six years old L16 s . When I do hydrometer test on these batteries they still read as good as they did brand new. They never get a very heavy load fact of the matter is I run the whole house on to 130 watt inverters I have a 2000 Watt inverter but I only use it to run big appliances in the kitchen occasionally or a corded tool outside. is the lack of a load on these batteries the reason they have lasted this long ?
Awesome topic and necessarily badly needed.
Now for the real question. How do you use (and what numbers) a 24V system and 350W solar panels to run a mobile 24-hr AC and induction hot water and cooking setup that would run 60" tv and three or four computers, 5 security cameras, electric water pumps, cpap, and select comfort bed air pumps [all with no propane] in Texas! I am thinking at least 10 Lithium 100Ah and 6 panels, but maybe that is low?
This is such a great vide Will. Super useful info!
Lead acid can still be discharged 100% but longevity is greatly impacted. Lithium cycle life is also affected with depth of discharge.
And that's the reason I just purchased a single battleborn lithium battery for my RV. I will get more usable amps from it than I would from two 6-volt Trojans. Not to mention 31 lb vs 125 lb for the Trojans! Toss in the 10-year guarantee and it's a no-brainer.
Very informative thank you. I've been buying the wrong batteries.
Very informative. Excellent content.
If you are willing to do the work yourself, it is easy to build battery systems for 1/2 of what Battleborn charges. In my case, I was able to assemble a 30kWh battery bank for $5000. It consists of 16 surplus 600Ah LiFePO4 cells with external BMS and safety cutout relays. Each individual cell only weighs 44lbs which makes it easy for a single person to build and maintain the bank. Other things to consider are 1/2 the space, 1/3 the weight, no ventilation required, and no water management. The only time I have opened the battery box is when I am showing it to others.
P.S. Every single lead acid battery I have ever used failed before 5 years time. These Li cells have not degraded at all over the course of the first year. Keep that in mind when you are tempted by the lower price of lead acid cells. Pay more up front and you are done.
Yeah I have a few video series on how to build these batteries. Nice job with your setup
After 30 years using all the available battery models, I am left with lifepo4 for the price, the capacity of discharge and the lifespan. And if I had the money, I would buy nickel iron batteries, although they have a high self-discharge rate, they are immortals.
You are amazing ! Thanks
What he’s discussing is really not an issue. When using solar panels it’s not an issue at all. You can get by just fine with a 100ah lead acid type so long as you’re not wanting to run heavy loads off it for prolonged period which is common sense anyway. Thank god for solar panels to replenish them throughout the day. Almost every industry uses trickery of some kind to more sweetly market their products. Good video though for people aren’t aware of the actual usable capacities.
Thanks for the data! Add the fact that most lead acid batteries available at local retail outlets only give you 'cold cranking amps' or 'reserve minutes' and not 'AH' and you have a recipe that is hard to work with and compare.
When li-ion batteries get hot during discharge that's I2R losses => can't have 100% round-trip efficiency. The same goes for heating while charging at high Cs. Peukert's effect in LAs AFAIK has to do with that too.
Amazing stats.Thanks for the information.
Can you pls make a video concerning wire sizing, distance of wire, voltage and amperage drop.
Great info. Can you do a video that compares brands and performance of different lithium batteries: Example: Battle Born, vs Renogy vs Tesla vs homebuilt lithium -- what makes them different in price per watt and overall usability? Which is best for high, normal, low draw RV use? How does overall power ratings affect lithium battery performance?
I have another video I posted on this
DakotaLithium has a group 24 - 1000 CCA 60AH LiFePO4 battery for $600: from website:
Drop in replacement for lead acid and AGM starter batteries for vehicles. ---- NOTE: THE DL+ 60Ah IS LIMITED TO AN ALTERNATOR CHARGING PROFILE OF 80 AMPS OR LESS. But how do you start the car at 32F with the BMS automatic 32F Low temp protection? Add a heater?
Thanks again for useable information that’s understandable!!!
How many batteries is too many batteries? As a beginner, I will probably start with a small system. However, I intend to expand it later rather than replacing it. I would like to add it to my home, and was wondering if I could expand the number of batteries before expanding solar panels, or upgrading my other equipment.
Hi Will, Help please, could you point me to which of your excellent video's has details of what you should set in a BMS settings for Lifepo4 48 volt
I found that using solar generators at high discharge rates with lithium ion cells did not live up to their amp hours but I might be confused. I had a 1000wh solar generator and a 2000wh solar generator and when I used high wattage appliances their amp hours decreased drastically. 😣😅
So how much would it cost a home 10kw lithium battery pack vs 10kw AGM battery pack.? Also after 10 years both battery's pack would need replacing with lead acid battery's there is money back when you recycled them approx 10%, and requires less monitoring overall.
It would be a good show down AGM VS LITHIUM which is truly cheaper