An episode that should have been nullified on glimpse. Like what you see? You can help fund more of it by visiting / usspedant and tossing a few coins my way. Cheers!
Something to consider-language can sometimes play a significant part in brainwashing. When the goal is brainwashing someone into joining your cult, getting them to use the different words you use can sometimes help with that. I noticed the deeper Chakotay got brainwashed to be one of them, the more he used their words and I think that was the point. As an aside, I liked the word replacements and my brother and I enjoyed trying to talk like them after watching the episode.
I actually found the use of language in this episode interesting. I get that exact word for word translation just makes for easier writing kinda like how it is just cheaper and easier to add some new forehead ridges than full body prosthetics. But I always wished for more stories about how difficult translating and communicating can actually be. There are so many times when there just isn’t a corresponding word or concept in two different languages, there is no english equivalent for the words sonder, wabi sabi, sisu, hygge, or fremdscamen for example. I do think it was done in a very, very clunky and distracting way in this episode though.
I think why Dutch and the rest of Kidnapping Ass's mates showed up because of the sound of exchanged gun fire. Hence, they were "nearby" but not necessarily headed in the same direction. More literally, it was a storytelling device showing Chakotay's demeanor at that stage in the story as still being a non-combatant in the conflict even after Kidnapping Ass was killed right next to him. As to the use of synonyms in the dialog, again, it was a storytelling device to show where Chakotay was in the story, as he gradually took on their method of speaking. And we don't call them prams, but strollers here in the US
The problem is that when "storytelling devices" are used in a heavy-handed way with no subtlety or nuance, they become jarring, and actually break the viewer's suspension of disbelief. The storytelling device therefore detracts from the story, rather than enhancing it.
@Eugene Luk no disagreement on the clunkiness of the dialogue. I noticed that Chakotay appeared to be on the path of inculcation as he lost his uniform and started speaking like the people he was with.
0:57 It’s also the third time in three episodes that a shuttle has been lost. Good thing there’s always a starbase nearby to get more! So if Chakotay’s brain washing made him believe the village was destroyed, how do they explain to him when he’s in reality and runs into that exact same and intact village again?
The plan is probably to ship recruits trained using the village simulation as far aware from the site as possible. The bigger issue is what happens when the new recruits start chatting around the fire about when they signed up and three people all have identical stories, right down to the villagers' names.
I cracked up watching this video. “What’s that? Prime Directive? Never heard of her” made me spit out my drink. Chakotay gets the luxury of intermittently being a Starfleet officer for…reasons (odd writing choices)….
Yeh...a few episodes earlier "I'll destroy this ship before I turn any part of it over" Now "ahh f**"k it who cares...I've glimpsed that this will be a fun way to kill time untill I'm rescued ..I'll just pretend they're spoonheads"
I didn't predict the twist, but I also didn't have any real emotional reaction to it, either. I did like, however, Chakotay's final comment; that he wished it was as easy to stop hating as it was to start. That is something which resonates with my own life experience.
Originally, I was kinda fond of the language choices, but after your teardown of the UT issue, I agree completely about the immersion aspect. To give some silver lining to the episode, this was around 20 years ago, the tropes we know today wouldn't have been as well known or fleshed out at that time. While they definitely took away any mystery/intrigue with the obvious dialogue - I do feel like this episode hits a fairly strong mark, in portraying that good and evil are quite subjective - and reversing the tropes of ugly aliens being bad guys. It certainly was no Threshold at least. Further saving grace regarding the UT however, and perhaps even an intentional hint for the episode - as the whole thing was a simulation, everything Chakotay heard was processed by the aliens UT technology from their simulation, and their UT could have some differences to the starfleet UT.... Really digging for that excuse, but it stands with some reason.
What makes me chuckle is that this episode aired out of sequence (I think it was due to air before day of honor), and in Revulsion Paris mentions that it's been three days since Torres told him she loves him, which means this was a busy weekend for the crew 🤣
To this day, me and my dad still joke around with the whole "glimpsed" thing whenever the topic of seeing something comes up. It's... interesting, and weird to the point of turning itself into a joke-
Language is weird 🙂'I glimpsed it' sounds odd because we're not used to it. But that word makes more sense than the far more common 'saw'. What do you mean you saw it? Did you cut it in half?
I was guna leave it but with the addition of the translator comment I actually feel I need to defend this episode cause you just pointed out the thing that did hint at the ending... I always enjoy this episode because the ending is a nice surprise cause I can't think of any other stories like it and I could understand how he was conditioned I remember rewatching it the last time I stumbled across it looking to see the structure of the first act as it's not until the end of the 2nd we even see Voyager. With the comment from Tuvok the episode is intended for rewatching so it's good the writers are on the ball with these things. It's easy to chuck words that are larger but interchangeable with simpler responses. That is almost a layer of brainwashing in itself. If you think to a completely different genre like Captain America Civil War and we get to see Bucky being activated as the Winter Soldier in his cell it follows the same referential detailing by using wording to evoke memories of the conditioning. Glimpse and the whole concept of the flashes being vague near the episodes climax could be referring to their conditioning method the complexity of saying nemesis over enemy is present in comprehending the word. The more thought evoked in reading or even listening to someone always applies more rewards. Not that I expect any revisions it's just when you brought up the translation it seems that's the only time the translator is actually explainable... N I despise the translator.
I mean come on the translator works on all sorts of languages and words but not Italian? Not Spanish? Like it's so pathetic that for the fact it's there and pointed out so often to be there why does anyone hear the Opera from the Doctor in its original form? Why does the lads that hooks up with Rios in Picard chatting away on a shop in Spanish it's baffling to comprehend as I know that different episodes have different dubs for those languages but where exactly does the line draw if you are doing that... It be damn cool if the viewer could choose the dub and the script just fits in like a glove but no they make this dynamic range of vagueness. I put this in the reply cause the translator rants something else entirely...
I for one enjoyed the awkward word choices. It makes no sense in context of the universal translator, but the universal translator doesn't make sense either so I can let it slide. I like the effect of defamiliarization it has for aliens that would otherwise be completely identical to humans.
Aside from the odd dialog choices, something that gets me about this episode is how little an effect it seemed to have had on Chakotay, One might think something like that would mess with his head more than it did.
That's the problem with episodic shows and the magic reset button. At least TNG had Picard needing a bit of therapy for an episode or two after Best of Both Worlds.
@@mcewanalex Very true. For as fond as I claim to be of Voyager, I'm not above using the term "Voyager ending" when referring to any episodic show that commonly hits viewers with episodes about massive life-changing events that pound the magic reset button every chance they get. I'm pretty sure it was the first one I saw where it was much of a problem.
I can see what they were trying for in this episode, yes it was clumsy but it was a bit different from the normal routine. I have a feeling someone had watched an episode of SAAB and were trying for that feel (Perhaps Sugar Dirt or Who Monitors the Birds?) As for the language, it might have been interesting if we had had started hearing the new words only when Chakotay's comm badge was missing. Or start with standard English then slowly introduce the dialect over time with him using the same terms. A pity about the reset button as we could have had episodes where he is still affected to a greater or lesser degree.
Lol all of this dialog feels like bad porn 😂 Curious how the attention keeps being refocused on their odd language style when (as you pointed out) the universal translator is there to provide understanding and clarity. Is there unmentioned tech in the simulation that helps them communicate in this weird way? Anyway the language totally takes me out of the story and makes it impossible to suspend my disbelief for even a half an hour to buy this crap. As always thank you for your time and effort 💚🌹💚 you are appreciated
I believe DS9 established that the universal translator is an implant in the ear not a function of the com badge. Having the com badge be the ut would be useless considering the number of times they get taken or lost/destroyed.
DS9 established that Ferengi translators are ear-implants. Whilst it's entirely possible that the Federation and others have similar, the episode "The 37's" shows us that Voyager's translators are in their combadges. Janeway motions to hers while she describes what it does.
Thank you Captain Pedant. I have hated this episode for 25 years. Some of the themes that they want to address might be worth examining, but this? This is $hit.
We're lazy....yep So much of this could be better but alas it was not to be 😔 I enjoy a good reveal. A mystery to get me teeth into but this one was so predictable 😢 Better luck next time.
robert beltran has a little 14 year old cousin who is extremely pretty and also extremely out of control. she keeps running off and her parents call the cops and as soon as the news puts out the "missing teen" alert, she comes back. (source: i live in bakersfield, and the beltran family is fairly high-rent for the area).
Was Chakotay brain-washed, or was he just massively concussed after being twatted in the head several times and shot? Or was Robert Beltram just reeling from the bad script?
Oh, I hate the "replacing words with similar but slightly more awkward words" thing too. Lord of the Rings: "Things that were. Things that are. And some things... that have not yet come to pass." Dammit, you ruined the cadence. "Things that will be." Another one I've been seeing used a lot recently is "as of late" instead of "lately." No, that does not make you sound smarter. It makes you sound like a pretentious boob.
At first, I figured they spoke like this to tell the audience (for once) the characters who look exactly like humans were alien but didn't speak Alienese OR perfect English. You know, like the way Yoda intentionally speaks "backwards". But uhm, the universal translator negates this possibility, coming off as he switches to dead man clothing even and just makes everything confusing and annoying.
I wanted to like this episode, it could have really told a story on the nature of propaganda but just fails on every level. They honestly might have done better condensing this into the opening and then spend the episode having him learn to work with the Craiden while dealing with flashbacks. Hard Time in DS9 and O'Brian coming to terms with his own "faked" memories shows how great you can do with a similar premiss.
This episode was so boring that I keep forgetting that it even exists. The "twist" at the end was telegraphed more than a Hall of the Novice (tutorial) fight in Final Fantasy XIV. The language thing seemed like a lazy attempt to create an alien sounding language through the magic of "Global Search and Replace." The most remarkable thing about this episode is how unremarkable it is: This episode is so generic and nondescript that it will easily fit into any season of Voyager (or even The Next Generation with some minor character changes).
True true, this episode was a shit episode. More of a forced chakotay episode, but i imagine the writers all around a shitty table with pizza crusts laying around playing rock papers scissors and the winner says ahhh chakotay it is. As oppose to another crew member which would have given more story and character growth
Today's thought experiment: War. What is it good for?
"I don't know sarge, freeing oppressed populations and overthrowing tyrannical despots?" "Ok, but besides that Nobby."
Absolutely nothing. Huuuh, good God.
By the look and dialogue of the episode, Soft Porn.
Business. Rule of Acquisition #34.
Selling war movies.
The twist of this episode was so telegraphed I rolled my glimpses for hours. I was truly rankled to rages over it.
I forgot how quickly this episode ended after the reveal. It really felt like it was only getting started.
Something to consider-language can sometimes play a significant part in brainwashing. When the goal is brainwashing someone into joining your cult, getting them to use the different words you use can sometimes help with that. I noticed the deeper Chakotay got brainwashed to be one of them, the more he used their words and I think that was the point.
As an aside, I liked the word replacements and my brother and I enjoyed trying to talk like them after watching the episode.
I actually found the use of language in this episode interesting. I get that exact word for word translation just makes for easier writing kinda like how it is just cheaper and easier to add some new forehead ridges than full body prosthetics. But I always wished for more stories about how difficult translating and communicating can actually be. There are so many times when there just isn’t a corresponding word or concept in two different languages, there is no english equivalent for the words sonder, wabi sabi, sisu, hygge, or fremdscamen for example.
I do think it was done in a very, very clunky and distracting way in this episode though.
I only enjoy this episode for the linguistic gymnastics.
I think why Dutch and the rest of Kidnapping Ass's mates showed up because of the sound of exchanged gun fire. Hence, they were "nearby" but not necessarily headed in the same direction. More literally, it was a storytelling device showing Chakotay's demeanor at that stage in the story as still being a non-combatant in the conflict even after Kidnapping Ass was killed right next to him.
As to the use of synonyms in the dialog, again, it was a storytelling device to show where Chakotay was in the story, as he gradually took on their method of speaking. And we don't call them prams, but strollers here in the US
The problem is that when "storytelling devices" are used in a heavy-handed way with no subtlety or nuance, they become jarring, and actually break the viewer's suspension of disbelief. The storytelling device therefore detracts from the story, rather than enhancing it.
@Eugene Luk no disagreement on the clunkiness of the dialogue. I noticed that Chakotay appeared to be on the path of inculcation as he lost his uniform and started speaking like the people he was with.
I remember when prams here in the US were called baby buggies.
0:57 It’s also the third time in three episodes that a shuttle has been lost. Good thing there’s always a starbase nearby to get more!
So if Chakotay’s brain washing made him believe the village was destroyed, how do they explain to him when he’s in reality and runs into that exact same and intact village again?
The plan is probably to ship recruits trained using the village simulation as far aware from the site as possible. The bigger issue is what happens when the new recruits start chatting around the fire about when they signed up and three people all have identical stories, right down to the villagers' names.
@@wendyheatherwood Great point!
I liked the language in this one. Though it was rather jarring on first watch, on subsequent viewings, it's actually my favorite part of this episode
I cracked up watching this video. “What’s that? Prime Directive? Never heard of her” made me spit out my drink.
Chakotay gets the luxury of intermittently being a Starfleet officer for…reasons (odd writing choices)….
He gets to have a little bit of guerrilla warfare. As a treat.
Yeh...a few episodes earlier "I'll destroy this ship before I turn any part of it over"
Now "ahh f**"k it who cares...I've glimpsed that this will be a fun way to kill time untill I'm rescued ..I'll just pretend they're spoonheads"
*And suddenly 1,000 Star Trek Fanfic writers rose up in joy. The convoluted link between the Nausicaan and Kradin exploding from their pens. *
. . . and then we're suddenly silent.
I didn't predict the twist, but I also didn't have any real emotional reaction to it, either. I did like, however, Chakotay's final comment; that he wished it was as easy to stop hating as it was to start. That is something which resonates with my own life experience.
Thank you sir. This was a welcomed end to my work day. Keep up the good work.
Originally, I was kinda fond of the language choices, but after your teardown of the UT issue, I agree completely about the immersion aspect.
To give some silver lining to the episode, this was around 20 years ago, the tropes we know today wouldn't have been as well known or fleshed out at that time. While they definitely took away any mystery/intrigue with the obvious dialogue - I do feel like this episode hits a fairly strong mark, in portraying that good and evil are quite subjective - and reversing the tropes of ugly aliens being bad guys. It certainly was no Threshold at least.
Further saving grace regarding the UT however, and perhaps even an intentional hint for the episode - as the whole thing was a simulation, everything Chakotay heard was processed by the aliens UT technology from their simulation, and their UT could have some differences to the starfleet UT.... Really digging for that excuse, but it stands with some reason.
What makes me chuckle is that this episode aired out of sequence (I think it was due to air before day of honor), and in Revulsion Paris mentions that it's been three days since Torres told him she loves him, which means this was a busy weekend for the crew 🤣
I'm so glad I never wasted my time watching this one.
I love Voyager so much. I watch these because there are no other videos that focus on Voyager. DS9 needs to be shelved for a few years.
I wasn't aware it was just me. Interesting...
To this day, me and my dad still joke around with the whole "glimpsed" thing whenever the topic of seeing something comes up. It's... interesting, and weird to the point of turning itself into a joke-
Language is weird 🙂'I glimpsed it' sounds odd because we're not used to it. But that word makes more sense than the far more common 'saw'. What do you mean you saw it? Did you cut it in half?
@@Norvo82 Imagine if they said "I bore witness to it" every time xD
@@spacey_432 "I bore witness" is definitely a good description for having watched this snoozer of an episode tho.
I was guna leave it but with the addition of the translator comment I actually feel I need to defend this episode cause you just pointed out the thing that did hint at the ending... I always enjoy this episode because the ending is a nice surprise cause I can't think of any other stories like it and I could understand how he was conditioned I remember rewatching it the last time I stumbled across it looking to see the structure of the first act as it's not until the end of the 2nd we even see Voyager. With the comment from Tuvok the episode is intended for rewatching so it's good the writers are on the ball with these things.
It's easy to chuck words that are larger but interchangeable with simpler responses. That is almost a layer of brainwashing in itself. If you think to a completely different genre like Captain America Civil War and we get to see Bucky being activated as the Winter Soldier in his cell it follows the same referential detailing by using wording to evoke memories of the conditioning. Glimpse and the whole concept of the flashes being vague near the episodes climax could be referring to their conditioning method the complexity of saying nemesis over enemy is present in comprehending the word. The more thought evoked in reading or even listening to someone always applies more rewards.
Not that I expect any revisions it's just when you brought up the translation it seems that's the only time the translator is actually explainable... N I despise the translator.
I mean come on the translator works on all sorts of languages and words but not Italian? Not Spanish? Like it's so pathetic that for the fact it's there and pointed out so often to be there why does anyone hear the Opera from the Doctor in its original form? Why does the lads that hooks up with Rios in Picard chatting away on a shop in Spanish it's baffling to comprehend as I know that different episodes have different dubs for those languages but where exactly does the line draw if you are doing that... It be damn cool if the viewer could choose the dub and the script just fits in like a glove but no they make this dynamic range of vagueness.
I put this in the reply cause the translator rants something else entirely...
The ending is vague enough. They could still be evil. They only met the ambassador.
I for one enjoyed the awkward word choices. It makes no sense in context of the universal translator, but the universal translator doesn't make sense either so I can let it slide. I like the effect of defamiliarization it has for aliens that would otherwise be completely identical to humans.
Aside from the odd dialog choices, something that gets me about this episode is how little an effect it seemed to have had on Chakotay, One might think something like that would mess with his head more than it did.
That's the problem with episodic shows and the magic reset button. At least TNG had Picard needing a bit of therapy for an episode or two after Best of Both Worlds.
@@mcewanalex Very true. For as fond as I claim to be of Voyager, I'm not above using the term "Voyager ending" when referring to any episodic show that commonly hits viewers with episodes about massive life-changing events that pound the magic reset button every chance they get. I'm pretty sure it was the first one I saw where it was much of a problem.
Well, he was involved in similar scenarios in his past, so maybe he has gotten a bit dulled by that.
I can see what they were trying for in this episode, yes it was clumsy but it was a bit different from the normal routine. I have a feeling someone had watched an episode of SAAB and were trying for that feel (Perhaps Sugar Dirt or Who Monitors the Birds?)
As for the language, it might have been interesting if we had had started hearing the new words only when Chakotay's comm badge was missing. Or start with standard English then slowly introduce the dialect over time with him using the same terms. A pity about the reset button as we could have had episodes where he is still affected to a greater or lesser degree.
When a fanfic becomes a startrek episode.
Ohh those ships' computers are always getting slandered.
Lol all of this dialog feels like bad porn 😂
Curious how the attention keeps being refocused on their odd language style when (as you pointed out) the universal translator is there to provide understanding and clarity. Is there unmentioned tech in the simulation that helps them communicate in this weird way? Anyway the language totally takes me out of the story and makes it impossible to suspend my disbelief for even a half an hour to buy this crap.
As always thank you for your time and effort 💚🌹💚 you are appreciated
Interesting that you find the language off putting, because that's why i think this is the best voyager episode
I believe DS9 established that the universal translator is an implant in the ear not a function of the com badge. Having the com badge be the ut would be useless considering the number of times they get taken or lost/destroyed.
DS9 established that Ferengi translators are ear-implants. Whilst it's entirely possible that the Federation and others have similar, the episode "The 37's" shows us that Voyager's translators are in their combadges. Janeway motions to hers while she describes what it does.
Thank you Captain Pedant. I have hated this episode for 25 years. Some of the themes that they want to address might be worth examining, but this? This is $hit.
Who gave you permission to make us feel so old?
Ah, this episode. The "twist" for this one is so cliche by now, it would've been more surprising if the human-like group really were the good guys.
This was from 1997 so was in cliche then I was four so I do not know.
Where is between the nights head voice evaluation??
Quite a lot of effort to recruit however few random passers by jusst happen to drop by.
We're lazy....yep
So much of this could be better but alas it was not to be 😔 I enjoy a good reveal. A mystery to get me teeth into but this one was so predictable 😢 Better luck next time.
Didn't outer limits and sliders also have episodes like this?
I wonder if this is the writers attempt to make porn with a plot, dead guy stars in starship troopers.
Such a good premise, with such poor execution. A microcosm of the whole series really.
robert beltran has a little 14 year old cousin who is extremely pretty and also extremely out of control. she keeps running off and her parents call the cops and as soon as the news puts out the "missing teen" alert, she comes back. (source: i live in bakersfield, and the beltran family is fairly high-rent for the area).
9:28 I honestly didn't first time watching this
Was Chakotay brain-washed, or was he just massively concussed after being twatted in the head several times and shot? Or was Robert Beltram just reeling from the bad script?
i wanted to DRILL you but you have DRILLED me
this episode always confused me like really reaaaaaly confused me
Oh, I hate the "replacing words with similar but slightly more awkward words" thing too. Lord of the Rings: "Things that were. Things that are. And some things... that have not yet come to pass." Dammit, you ruined the cadence. "Things that will be." Another one I've been seeing used a lot recently is "as of late" instead of "lately." No, that does not make you sound smarter. It makes you sound like a pretentious boob.
At first, I figured they spoke like this to tell the audience (for once) the characters who look exactly like humans were alien but didn't speak Alienese OR perfect English. You know, like the way Yoda intentionally speaks "backwards". But uhm, the universal translator negates this possibility, coming off as he switches to dead man clothing even and just makes everything confusing and annoying.
3:21 Chakotay was makee wasnt he? So he doesnt care about the prime directive. Still lold tho.
Jesus I'd forgotten just how clumsy and pointless this episode was.... xD
I wanted to like this episode, it could have really told a story on the nature of propaganda but just fails on every level.
They honestly might have done better condensing this into the opening and then spend the episode having him learn to work with the Craiden while dealing with flashbacks.
Hard Time in DS9 and O'Brian coming to terms with his own "faked" memories shows how great you can do with a similar premiss.
I mean they already used bad Translations, so maybe he doesn't need the UT
This episode was so boring that I keep forgetting that it even exists. The "twist" at the end was telegraphed more than a Hall of the Novice (tutorial) fight in Final Fantasy XIV. The language thing seemed like a lazy attempt to create an alien sounding language through the magic of "Global Search and Replace." The most remarkable thing about this episode is how unremarkable it is: This episode is so generic and nondescript that it will easily fit into any season of Voyager (or even The Next Generation with some minor character changes).
True true, this episode was a shit episode. More of a forced chakotay episode, but i imagine the writers all around a shitty table with pizza crusts laying around playing rock papers scissors and the winner says ahhh chakotay it is. As oppose to another crew member which would have given more story and character growth
Bad dialogue. Great episode.
Yeah, this was a bad one lol Really bad.