Deep Space Nine Reviewed! (by a pedant) S2E10: SANCTUARY
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- I'm sure in her you'll find sanctuary.
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Today's Thought Experiment: So what was Haneek's son's plan once he got onto Bajor then?
Bold of you to assume he had a plan
1. Steal a Ship
2. Land on Bajor
3. ????
4. Kentanna
Get himself a nice Bajoran FEEEEEmale... and then allow her to have 3 more boyfriends?
Farm... aggressively.
Cocaine and hookers
We appreciate you managing to put out an episode even under the weather.
Hope you get well soon.
Thank you. Still a bit rough but getting there. Hoping the next recording session is a little smoother.
Hey, if you need to take a break, we understand.
We'll be here when you get back.
@@Unlimited_Lives If it makes you feel any better (and of course it won't) Armin Shimerman revealed on the Delta Flyers podcast that the actress who played Haneek had an allergic reaction to the make up halfway through filming the episode, making her sick as a dog for the rest of the shoot.
@@Unlimited_Lives dont worry about the voice change, after 15 seconds I didnt notice it any more actually :)
PS - get well soon!
As a mother of 2 teenagers, and an Aunt to 2 more, all living with me, I can tell you, they rarely have a full plan, they mostly kind of wing it and egg each other on until one of them get hurt or an adult intervene or they get bored - there is also the rare occasion when they are forced to call me directly because they've run out of money.
Thanks for making me laugh, needed that today
Worth mentioning, Tumak (Haneek's Son) was played my Walter Koenig's son Andrew. Gone, not forgotten.
No way! I never knew that!
Way I see it, Bajor was in a difficult position, but they had a convenient "out", thanks to the Federation. The Federation had nearly infinite resources, and were putting out a planet-sized welcome mat, so the Bajorans effectively decided that they would let them handle this.
And, if Planet Upholstry was not certainly the best solution, it was arguably the safest. Haneek only opposed it because of a prophecy her people had, and both Vedek Bareil and a third season episode the USS Pedant will look at later remind us that prophecies can be misinterpreted. Drailon 2 was a beautiful and unspoiled world that had sat alone in the dark cosmos for billions of years, awaiting people to settle it and sow "seeds of joy". Maybe it was the real Kentanna after all.
I just see it as being selfish on the part of the aliens. Like seriously is Bajor supposed to give up their land when there is a perfectly reasonable alternative?
@Ceece20 I didn't see it as selfishness. The selfish decision would have been to take the whole planet, rather than settle for a piece of Bajor (which had been ravaged by the Occupation). It was just adherence to their genuinely held beliefs about Kentanna. As a spiritual people themselves, I'm sure the Bajorans understood this; that's why they didn't just dismiss the Skreeans out of hand.
It's also worth noting that just a few episodes earlier we had the events of The Homecoming, The Circle, and The Siege which revolved around Jaro's Coup, something that had its roots in the fear Bajorans about an indecisive government, struggles with resources and outside influences on a planet struggling to rediscover its cultural identity after 50 years of oppression. Accepting the Skrreeans could of very easily reignited those tensions. After all the situation was only "resolved" because it was discovered that the Cardassians were the ones providing the Circle with weapons and not because the concerns of the people were dealt with.
I have to side with the Bajorans on this one. I always liked this episode in that it looked at the issue of refugees from both sides and treated both sides fairly. The number of Skrreea coming in was massive and Bajor couldn't absorb them after what they went through with the occupation. It was stated that large amounts of the planets farm land was left poisoned by the Cardassians before they left. Federation aid is probably the only thing that's keeping a famine from breaking out. The argument the Skrreea make that they can restore the land without any technology but just because they are really good farmers just sounds naive. It also wasn't like the Skrreea were being abandoned. They were being offered a good world to start rebuilding. The whole Bajor or nothing attitude they took always felt very unreasonable. The Skrreea aren't invaders, just people who need help, but at the same time the concerns and desires of the Bajorans can't be ignored. Its their homeworld and so the final call is theirs to make.
I do hope they have another look at it once they are back on there feet.
I liked that you can see both sides of it. Neither of them were completely 'right'.
There's also an argument to be made that the Skrreea being "good farmers" is entirely moot. They were good farmers (according to themselves no less) on the planet(s) they came from, in a completely different part of the galaxy.
How well would a rice farmer from South-East Asia do farming wheat in Europe or vice versa?
There is zero guarantee the Skrreea can deliver, while the Bajorans are expected to take a huge risk. And if the project fails? The Skrreea can get back in their ships and go look for another place to settle while the Bajorans will be left scrambling to survive, again.
There's also the fact that being asked something should not come with the implication you have to accede and cannot refuse.
As the old adage states: “Beggars can’t be choosers.”
The alternative planet was the offered solution, but the aliens decided because of vaguely worded prophecy that an already occupied planet would be the best place instead? Even the lady admits at the end that Bajor was not their destiny planet, though it was through the lens of personal feelings.
Just seems to me their prophecy wasn’t saying Bajor specifically and they misinterpreted it because of subjective feelings.
@Ceece20 And, having a prophecy driven faith themselves, the Bajorans know that prophecies can be misinterpreted. Look at it a bit differently, and Planet Upholstery could easily be the Kentanna they seek.
I liked that the musician was playing the DS9 theme
It's beloved US TV actor William Schallert as the Bajoran flautist. He was Dobie Gillis's teacher! He was Patty (or Cathy) Lane's father! He was the doomed Secretary of Defense in Colossus: The Forbin Project!
I thought I recognised him! That is a good film too.
This is the MOST under-rated Star Trek channel on YT, your analysis and your script writing and your narration style are fantastic and your comedy skits at the end of each episode make me laugh harder than anything else on YT has since Techmoan stopped making his puppet skits, it's shocking that you still have less than 5,000 subs, you deserve 500,000 subs brother, keep up the great work
Much appreciated. More views would be nice from an ad-revenue point of view, but I'm very happy with the audience we have right now as they're overwhelmingly positive.
@@Unlimited_Lives yeah, I can understand not wanting to have your channel grow at the expense of foolish people diluting the quality of the audience members you have now but your style is so cerebral that I think it would go over most of the fools' heads and not draw them in to subscribe if they find your videos so I wouldn't worry about that too much, if you get passed that fear and think about putting some effort into growing your audience one good way to do that is to start leaving clever comments on the videos that some of the other larger Trek tube channels make, I discover a lot of the good smaller channels that I follow from comments they leave in videos I watch on larger channels cause the algorithm doesn't often promote the smaller channels, the trick is to get in early when a video drops and to say something that is intelligent and witty before the comment section gets flooded so that your comment has a better chance of being seen and getting likes to keep it in the top comments, self promotion can feel like an awkward thing for some people to do but as long as you stay true to yourself with the comments that you leave then you aren't comprising your integrity, and if you get lucky you can catch the attention of the creators of some of the larger Trek tube channels and get them to say something about your content in their videos and possibly set up the opportunity for collaboration on a future video on their channels which will increase your exposure even more
I always liked this episode for the story itself showing the bajorans still haven't learned to trust anyone.
If I had two choices between sharing an already inhabited planet, or being given a "new and fresh" planet I would gladly take the new planet. Somewhere me and my people could truly make a fresh start, make it reflect our culture.
"Well, you can have verdant fields and virgin forests, orrrrrr you can have some depleted farmland and some polluted industrial remains that may have been a forest at one point."
@@rinoz47 Exactly, we are told that Bajor has been poisoned, strip mined, and scarred. I would take the fresh planet gladly.
@@john1701q
The worm hole location must be the real reason. It might be what they gave everything else up for.
The Bajorins could have taken that world for themselves to start over and chose to stay instead. Then THEY would be abandoning what they fought for.
@@LucasKeesee-vm8ypit’s also the home planet of their species. While that is sentimental, their archaeological history and sites have value that can’t be overlooked. Imagine giving up part of your land just because the alien refugees are picky.
@@jimtaylor294 maybe that’s just a privilege for Federation members. Weird considering Bajor does make a colony on the other side of the wormhole later. Maybe they just really wanted to stay near the wormhole.
"It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
Ah Friday my favourite day of the week, the last day of work and the second day of Star Trek Reviewed (by a pedant). Get well soon, hopefully the phage ain't too bad and your doctor doesn't try to hit on you mid larynx replacement.
This is one of my favorite episodes. Aside from the amazing hair. The conflict between "we have mutual prophecies saying this should happen" and the doubt of if those were reliable was played well. I really liked the question about what would happen if the refugees did fail to establish successful agriculture. I would want to take them in, I would want to help them if they failed, even if it did mean planetary hardship. But it makes sense that the government can't throw out their decades long recovery plan for a gamble that could set them back to square one. And sending the Skreean away to remove the temptation was the only way to avoid that.
Ah Janeway's species
In this spirit of pedantry, saying that the energy moon doesn't need to heat homes in Winter makes no sense, Bajor is a globe.
At what point did I say they don't heat homes during winter?
get well soon! hope you find a red shirt soon, mine is blue and my vocal chord is shot. i think haneek was hoping once he got to the empty part of bajour, 1) the locals would love him 2) they couldn't be bothered to find and return him
I agree there are some major upsides to letting the Scria settle but I can also fully understand Bajor saying no. The Cardassians showed up essentially saying, "we have a right to your planet, it is our destiny to have it." The Scria saying something similar is gonna make people nervous, even if it is couched in better language. The Cardassians said they were goijng to partner with Bajor too, and did by setting up a puppet government. Especially with the Federation offering them their own planet, it makes sense they would say no. Ya Bajor is afraid, but I get it.
Please feel better soon. Sending virtual tea and cough drops.
I completely get that the decision is an understandable one, I just wanted to go through the reason they were given and show that it doesn't hold water.
In this situation, you could even say that Planet Upholstery is the better choice for the Skrreeans. More fertile land with a longer viable growing period will give them a greater crop excess, and that sizeable fleet would make for decent trade caravans not only with Bajor, but with anybody else in the area.
A few years of cultural exchange between the two might also make it easier to accept a follow-up offer of trying to cultivate the northern peninsula on Bajor
This is why I don't explicitly say the Bajoran decision is wrong. I think it's **illogical** based on the raw data, but that's not the same thing. In a perfect world the Skrreeans would be a boon for them, but the Circle have proven that Bajor is not a perfect world.
Thank you for the good wishes. Have taken to tea with honey while recovering. Curiously effective, if only in the short-term.
@@Unlimited_Lives I am right there with you, and I would be super interested in seeing stories where a further relationship is explored between the two peoples. It would be fascinating to watch and I think that they could make a pretty interesting union based on some intriguing cultural similarities.
Glad you have the honey then!
I just now noticed that the Skrreea hairstyle looks very similar to the Centauri from Babylon 5.
Hope you get better soon, UL!
Cheers! Most of me is fine now, just the throat. Persistent little bugger (but not Actual Plague based on tests, so that's a bonus).
Hey Unlimited Lives, at the end of the program, Haneek speaks of a "famine" on Bajor, that must be a glitch of the universal translator because a famine is an extreme scarcity of food. With the devastation caused by cardigans to the farmlands when they left surely the Federation would move in & assist with food replicators until farm ecology could be reestablished. If there really is a famine shouldn't we see more people sneaking onto the DS9 in search of food? Perhaps Haneek means crop shortage? The Skrreeans are just "farmers" yet have a warp capable fleet that can transport 3 million people, seems more like an invasion. Haneek tells Kira & Sisko about Dominion yet this goes unnoticed for the rest of the episode, the Gamma Quadrant is new & shouldn't they ask more about this evident aggressor? In "Home Soil" (TNG) we witness a group of terraformers who spend their lives on a hot dusty rock turning it into an Earth like planet yet in this episode Sisko finds an M-class planet with ease, so why are there still terraformers? Haneel tells Kira of 50 years of cardigan rule yet in "Emissary" Kira says 60 years. The universal translator is amazing, 1 minute Skrreeans are speaking Skrreean then english & their mouth movements match which ever language they speak, perhaps DS9 has holographic projectors creating facial masks so that aliens look like they speak english to eliminate bad dubbing! The 2nd level of the promenade is less safe as it no longer has lower railing so there is nothing for Jake & Nog to hold on too when they sit with their legs dangling! Who footed the bill for the replicator food the Skrreeans ate, if they are lined up at the replimat, they're eating replicated food. With Quarks around the corner why would he have customers when there is free food next door? At the end Sisko, Kira & Haneek watch over a monitor yet the monitor doesn't keep the 3 ships in the center, it allows them to drift off when the fatal accident occurs, does Kira forget to lock sensors onto the targets because of the stress of the situation?
This is one of those ones that's just never worked for me. I think the language conflict at the beginning, which never gets any sort of payoff, set my teeth on edge and they never recovered.
You'd think one species whose theology consists of a stable wormhole bringing about their prophets would think it divine manifestation that a species that came from beyond that wormhole with a theology about the same wormhole and planet would be kind of a big deal.
You know, I was thinking something similar after I uploaded this. The Eye of the Universe is fully compatible with Bajoran ideology, with it being the place from which the Prophets watch over them.
@@Unlimited_Lives Catholics and Lutheranism (in many respects extremely similar ) resulted in millions of deaths... its not unreasonable to see Bajoran people not being keen of this exodus to their planet, regardless of their religious text.
War jades all. The prophets watched,but didn't act. The Cardassians came to them from the stars FIRST, only AFTER the war did Star Fleet come to aid them at all.
The main show story here is both the Independence Day movies back to back, just done in third person.
@tisFrancesfault Because of the religion, or because of the people in positions of power within the religion? Vedek Bareil would've got on with them. Vedek Sin not so much.
@@Unlimited_Lives tbf I think that's a separate, compounding issue. But it shows that the theological head is one accident away from being a forgiving, welcoming reconciler; to a xenophobic nationalist. (The chances that could happen twice in a lifetime are slim though...**cough**)
My point was initially the conflict of theology between the Bajorans and Skarrens.
I'd like to be boldly optimistic, but alas, life teaches otherwise. ...hope for the best, expect the worst.
Get James Earl Jones's larynx. :)
Get well soon!
Great analyst the Skire was supposed to be the Roma.
Replicate some hot tea with lemon and honey rest well and feel better soon you can't let the doggies take over narration .... wooof
Sorry you're not well, mate. Hope you get better soon!
Cheers! Throat's still complaining but we'll figure something out.
The writers have clearly never been in a pub, music most definitely does NOT reduce drinking.
Get well soon!
Ah yea, all those drunken brawls to Bach and Mozart being played on flute... good memories.
@@dominic.h.3363 the first rule of Mozart fight club is that you don't talk about Mozart fight club
@@dominic.h.3363Might be surprised when Bach and Mozart were contemporary music writers, though they did tend to work for the aristocracy.
@@mjbull5156 Aaand your point is... ?
@dominic.h.3363 Bach's and Mozart's may have been somewhat less highbrow when they were written, than they are in the 21st Century, and might be heard in pubs.
I think the scale in the episode is worth consideration.
This isn't like a few hundred people looking for a home. This is three MILLION. That's the population of a major city, or a small country like Costa Rica.
And there's absolutely zero guarantee they'll stay in one place. Not everyone wants to be a farmer and they're innately suited to a nomadic lifestyle.
And that's before border stuff becomes an issue.
I would think that using replicators on a planet-wide basis to feed millions of people would use a lot more energy than that moon can provide. Also just because it's not winter and they don't need heating doesn't mean they can't do other things with the energy. The Cardigans broke a lot of stuff on their way out of town, so factories and construction crews and the like probably have a lot of work to do rebuilding and can use the energy for that.
Anyway sorry you're not feeling well. Hope you get better soon. Woof.
Here's a little thought I had here: Why didn't the Federation (with permission of the Bajoran government, of course) use a Genesis Device on one of Bajor's moons, on which the Skrreeans could settle?
@@jimtaylor294 True, but in my opinion, the Genesis Planet was unstable due to the fact that it was created by the destruction of the Reliant. Add to that Spock's katra-less body and (my own headcanon for this one) the fact that protomatter was, at least in 2285, incredibly new and most scientists weren't sure how much to use in the device.
@@jimtaylor294 All valid, but I honestly think that development of the GD was simply slowed down rather than stopped altogether. As for the prohibition of subspace weapons, I think Genesis would be an exemption, considering it was never intended as a weapon.
No one ever talks about how dry it is in space. There should be humidifiers all over. I bet people get nose bleeds all the time. My point is the flaky skin of the Skreean could be from extended time in space without proper humidity. Think how dry it would seem to say a Feringi who needs loads of damp. Garak complains of the cold occasionally so a environmental 'happy medium' for all humanoids isn't a priority. Just make it comfy for the human/Bajorians and we're good.
Sorry to hear you are poorly. Wishing you a speedy recovery and I hope the phage scars give you lots of character. Thanks again for another great review 💚🌹💚 you are appreciated
That's an interesting point. I wonder if Ferengi ships have different maintenance requirements as a result of a more humid standard atmosphere? Are docking areas made from more resilient materials given the range of environments that will spill into them from ships? Are dermal conditions the most common ailment that Bashir sees given the different species that use DS9? Another of those little threads to pull on that raise a whole lot of questions.
Thank you. Throat's still pretty rough but we're getting there!
@@Unlimited_Lives you sounded just fine imho
What could possibly go wrong Space and Skull dog? I liked this episode, it didn't have a simple easy answer. Hope you feel better soon.
I think its not unreasonable to think a species homeworld would be sacred to them, especially when still recovering from being conquered. Remember that Earths full acceptance of alien residents to the point it even has an alien as president did not happen overnight. Places like Earth and Risa are probably the exception with attitudes like the bajoran government being much more common.
Suggestion: Each one of the commentary segments may make good separate content.
Maybe. The channel started out as a mingling of the two without a separation and just evolved. I worry uploading 3 different cuts of essentially the same content will dilute the community though. For every Internet Points Guy we have to deal with here, there are a hundred people with interesting, insightful thoughts or positive feedback and I think that's a positive for everyone.
Hey I watched this video and lost both one eyeball and kidney you lied to us Unlimited Lives the cost was much higher then one red shirt !
Absorbing a new larynx is hungry work. I needed snacks.
Just go to sick bay get a hypo and you will be fine
I lost my left nut that way. So now I can't use the expression "I'd give my left nut for a _________ right now." It's very aggravating.
Shades of gray is morals too. It's not morals because you agree with it, it's morals because people live by it. Mores (custom) can come in many varieties, and being biased as to recognize as morals only what you agree with... Well, does that mean it's morals only if it's your own?
Is that the first time the dominion is mentioned? At 4:09?
Second I believe. 'Rules of Acquisition' was the first. I'm sure someone will correct me if I've missed any.
This episode is pretty good: even though its an alien of the week episode, it is tied in very well with Bajor and its current state, and puts an uncomfortable focus on the seemingly less advanced species looking to settle on Bajor and being told 'no'. I think the Bajorians have some valid concerns around the survival of the Skreans, but i also think there is an undercurrent of xenophobia; Bajor is culturally, economical, and agricultural weak from the occupation and i think many Bajorians wanted their own world for themselves and are worried that the Skreans would cause further instability and cultural loss on top of what the cardigans did. Whilst most xenophobic concerns in the real world are either nonsense or massively overblown by typically conservative media trying to get anti immigrant laws pasted, there are some valid concerns here too for the Bajorians; in the real world, we don't really know how much truly alien peoples can live together, and its not common for countries recovering from decades of conflict to want to host many refugees (even if they end up doing so in reality sadly).
Anyway, this episode shows the stark difference between DS9
This was one of the more annoying episodes of DS9 for me. My own nominated resettlement site for the speaker of this group in particular, would be just outside the nearest airlock. To be fair, your philosophical commentary here was better than the episode itself, in my mind. You always do a great job with that.
I'm digging phage stricken unlimited! Get well soon because I don't know what I'll do with my Tuesday and Friday evenings if not
Oh, you'll get something even if it's just Computer explaining that I'm spending a few days dead for tax purposes. The time I had yesterday has convinced me that maybe not forcing myself to record is better in the long run. If I do end up having to skip a recording session, that won't stop the writing so you'll get a double dose on the following release. Uncle UL will always make it up to you.
Something always bothered me about this episode. Follow me down this rabbit hole:
3 million Skreeans want to immigrate to Bajor. 10 million Bajorans died in the Occupation. So, they have the room.
Sisko and his people found a new planet for the Skreeans to settle on, Draylon 2 (temperate climate, mild winters, long growing season - ideal for farming) and the Skreeans ARE farmers.
Much of the Bajoran farmland was poisoned by the Cardassians when they left, making it hard for the Bajorans to grow food. There is famine on Bajor at the time of this episode.
The Skreeans say they can make the land productive again, but the Bajorans don't think they can do it, and the situation on Bajor is bad enough at this time. They are denied immigration.
Now, what if the Skreeans moved to Draylon 2, and grew food there - but they shipped it to Bajor to ease their famine? In order to "purchase" immigration rights?
Let's say about 300,000 Skreeans would move to Bajor each year, and begin reclaiming/detoxifying the soil, preparing it for farming. This would likely take years to complete.
The majority of the Skreeans would be growing way more food on Draylon 2 than they needed, and shipping it to Bajor, immediately easing the famine, and feeding ALL Skreeans and Bajorans.
Eventually, the soil on Bajor would be ready for farming again, and the Skreeans would all have immigrated there, but if it was done slowly, so it didn't shock the system, then it probably would have worked in the end.
Feel better, bud.
Early crew woohoo
The Soylent machine hungers, but you are safe for today.
@@Unlimited_Lives Eeeek! Thanks for producing a video while sick, it's always appreciated.
Almost surprised none of them, not Haneek or her son, got cute new names.
When I saw it I think the intent of this is that Haneek felt like saying it was Bajor was her way to help Bajorans. So she finds their refusal irrational and counterproductive. Which is similar to how you took it.
However in my experience the Scria really annoyed a large swaths of viewers. Not me so much, but I saw this even with people who tend to be very pro-refugee and pro-immigrant. Possibly they made them a little too quirky, but then again possibly that was part of the point. To make more liberal, on immigration, viewers think about whether their acceptance of refugees is more conditional than what they believe about themselves.
On the other hand it might make some sense to say that even if the Scria are right they are still being a tad presumptuous. Maybe they would have helped Bajor, but Bajor doesn't have to accept help it doesn't trust or believe in. That Haneek is kind of justly irritating to viewers because she's talking down to Kira when just like 5 seconds ago she deemed herself a humble farmer. Who is to say her perception they would help Bajor is even correct.
On their relationship I think it's more like a female-centered form of polyandry. My understand of polyamory is weak, but I think it allows for some level of same-sex relationships as well. I never got the sense her males were also into each other. She was more like a man with a harem, but gender-flipped.
I am sorry to hear of your condition so I have a spare lung you can have, no questions asked; especially why it smells like Leola root.
I hope it’s not the Phage. You’ll need to get in touch with the guy from Seinfeld for the cure 😭
Get well soon, though 👍🏼
I know it's nitpicky but given which channel this is...
I noticed you using the term "solar system" the way I used to, but that's only applicable to ours because our sun is named Sol.
We love a good nit-pick here, which is why I looked into it. There are multiple dictionaries that also consider solar system to be a generic term for a star system similar to our own, language having evolved to accept it as such. This seems to be an Americanism, but I'd argue a logical conclusion when it's accepted practice to use the term "our solar system" to describe the Sol system, the implication being that there are others. We do not tend to use the term "our Earth" for example, but would say "our planet".
TL;DR - would probably agree if a scientific paper but this is UA-cam so accepted general use is fair.
@@Unlimited_Lives what are your thoughts on people using the word literally for emphasis?
Generally OK with it. I can understand why it frustrates some, but we don't mean something is an actual biological waste solid from a digestive system when we call it shit, so it's not like exaggeration for effect is a thing people never do.
Words change. Language morphs. If I'm honest that used to bother me (because rigid thinking about what is 'correct' is a Spicy Brain Thing), but any sort of look back at English proves such adaptation is neither new nor wrong. This is how it's always been. More than that, each new mutation gives us more ways of playing with how the DNA fits together. Choice is a good thing, and nobody's telling anybody that literally can't be used literally. It just has another application now.
Sorry for the rant. I just quite like words.
@@Unlimited_Lives I fully agree with you and can understand how my last reply could've come across, but nah I just was curious, and wasn't trying to make you think there was a contradiction here.
Thanks for the effort though, I expect someone will find it helpful. Always love reading something which reads like when
i get serious about a topic I love.
[14:33] whoa back up there with the absolute convoluted, confusing & somewhat unfathomably difficult to pronounce scientific wording 😂
I see you’ve joined the plague lads, does this mean holo-sexytimes will follow?
Alas, it has dropped off.
@@Unlimited_Lives noooooooooo
Haneek (?) rubs me the wrong way in this episode. She acts so damn entitled.
And what if the Skrreeans' crops fail on upholstery planet? Will the Bajorans stand by and watch? Will they help? Or will they look the other way, now that it's far off and easy to ignore?
The writers need to forget that they have easy matter-energy conversion to make these refugee stories make any sense. For the energy cost of one warp jump they could replicate enough basic supplies (and luxuries) to keep billions living well for a thousand years.
The Bajorans do not have an open borders policy.
@@julius-stark
Well, not anymore.
Devils advocate view: An issue with the Skrreeans is, 3 million is a lot of people (even in ST lore). And the Bajorans would, imo help at their own expense. Which is a problem in its own right. But more complex than that, is they do well; too well. Our history is more than replete with examples of ethnic minorities that do well , resulting in well, -up to genocide of such minorities.
Singapore was expelled from Malaysia for being too Chinese (and the success of Singapore would Dominate Malya/Malaysia; a valid concern for Malaysians). Uganda deported (with threat of death, Its Indian population due to their economic success. and this is and example not unusual across post empire states.) So a question is, is it wrong to avoid ethnic conflicts when options are available; E.g, an empty, though settable planet?
Hope you are feeling better. But as much as this is sort of aged badly. I can't help but completely understand where the Bajorans are coming from strategically, culturally and economically because as you said the real world is in shades of grey.
Because in an ideal world they would welcome the Skrean with open arms, they have the room and the Skreans say they can help
But what if the Skreans can help with the food - but the Bajoran's just got rid of another set of people who turned up on their doorstep who were majorly culturally different and who could lord it over them. The Skreans have essentially army on their side (considering the number of their ships) and they are saying religiously Bajor should be where they settle and are culturally different considering how they treat their men. So it the Federation wasn't there and the Skreans got arsy about things what exactly could Bajor do to stop the Skreans becoming the new Cardies seeing how the Bajorans really no jack all about them outside the whole 'we say we are this.'
Because the Bajorans also have no idea if the Skreans story isn't full of excrement and even if it isn't if they let the Skreans on Bajor and the Skrean enemies turn up? Does the Skrean fight become the Bajorans? Does the presence of the Skreans on Bajor mean that the Bajorans become a target if things kick off if someone comes through the worn hole and goes 'that planet has a lot of my slaves'?
They could have tried it out, to see if they could make the ground grow again. If they failed, they could still try out the other planet.
The majority of human life on earth, being the example of the most intelligent and developed life is monogamous. And this transcends many societies and beliefs. There may be a benefit to monogamous relationships, but as to what that benefit, or benefits, is can be debated.
Honestly this just feels like the good old intellectually dishonest "if you don't like homelessness why don't you house a homeless person yourself" argument to me.
To which the answer is "why the fuck should I when there are empty houses to go around."
And then the inevitable response is “because you don’t own those empty houses and you can’t force others to give up their empty houses without compensation, which you also don’t have”.
@@shingshongshamalama nah, is different in that, its not a straight refugee issue (as noted in the ep)... It's a theological one. There can be all the empty houses in the universe, but if a religion says, it's your house that they're destined to settle, things may get spicy.
@@Ceece20
Why do you believe that forcing people to be homeless so that rich people can own more homes they don't live in is morally okay?
@@shingshongshamalama way to take what I said to a strawman argument. That’s not what I said. I said you were trying to take ownership away from people who owned homes and you weren’t compensating. And no you don’t have the compensation for taking others property.
Learn to argue or don’t bother making an argument.
@@Ceece20
Morally defend your argument that hedge funds have a right to own property that supercedes the right of actual people to not be homeless. Explain why it is moral for rich people to own excess housing by taking that housing away from others.
What? What's that? You're falling back on the flimsy argument that the rich people "made that housing" again? No they didn't. A building company made that housing. Rich people just borrowed money that wasn't theirs from a bank that took it out of your accounts to pay for it. Which still doesn't actually MORALLY justify this argument. Why is it MORALLY OKAY to deny housing to people who actually need it so that people who don't can have extra?
IMHO the Bajorans didn’t need any excuse, it’s their planet.
I've always found this episode both heavy-handed and boneheaded. The Bajorans are quite reasonable in denying the request (frankly the Skrreeees make it more of a demand than request) to settle. No matter how great the Skkreechers are at farming they're going to have a hard go of it on a chunk of land that doesn't have enough fresh water. And either they are highly prejudiced against men or half their population really IS unstable.
And the Skrreemans' desire to settle on Bajor isn't based on need. Sisko already went out and found them a nice planet that frankly sounds like it fits their needs much better than Bajor. It's a religious desire based on a prophecy. Follow your religion all you want, but don't expect other people to blindly accept it.
Prophecies in general annoy me. It's a cheap way of giving characters a motivation that doesn't really make sense. If you're going to use a prophecy as a plot device you need to give it some details about its origin to show why it's believed. Bajoran belief in prophecy, for example, makes perfect sense since they've been getting them from a god-race that doesn't see time as linear.
The Bajorans are in an awkward position of having just reestablished their sovereignty over their own homeworld, they meet a significantly large nation of people with a rather different culture who are claiming to have a divine right to, at least part of, Bajor. Can they trust such an arrangement when their own political situation remains highly unstable? It might be an understable reluctance for why the Bajoran government refuses the offer.
Real human cultures with polyamory are not exactly known for being "progressive" in relations between the sexes. Given the habits other mammals which have multiple mates, what would you think those practices with human level intellect and a veneer of civilization would look like?
Your argument on polyamory is inherently flawed as you're presenting the false implication that a culture must be either monogamous OR polyamorous, rather than it simply being open to the individual. If you're living in the west you're already in a culture that does both, just without the legal protection afforded to monogamous arrangements (and that's the case because of religious bigotry, which is something to consider before we start commenting on how progressive others are).
As to the animal kingdom... well, I've never seen a tiger fuck someone over for pieces of paper, so I'm not sure we're in a position to judge ethics there either. I certainly wouldn't look at monogamous animals and assume their behaviour was indicative of humans because, frankly, that's an absurd conclusion.
As to the Bajor bit, you make a good point with the Skrreeans presenting it as a claim of divine right. That's an understandable problem for the Bajorans, even for a culture as open to religious motivations, and even for beliefs that seem so potentially compatible with their own. The idea of ceding anything over to an external group would be high on the "fuck that" list after their recent history, as we've seen with their attitude towards the Federation.
How much of that fits under the "acting out of emotion" heading is another matter.
@@mjbull5156
I see a sneak peek of this every four years here in the United States, two ideas, too many people that only know what we DON'T want.
Maybe that helps partially answer your question, or at least you can follow afterwards come November.
@@Unlimited_Lives No, all I meant was that exigent human cultures that are dominantly polyamourous tend to be highly sexist also. The Skrreeans are certainly presented as such, ableit with the females being socially dominant. Yes, Western culture does have a polyamourous subculture, but is a dominant monogamous culture, which while reinforced by religion, might be a cultural decision that widespread polyamoury is not worth the social headaches which go along with it.
I am fairly certain that a tiger will fuck over another tiger for a kill. That a tiger does not have the capacity for abstract thought to recognize that a piece of paper might represent a hunk of meat, does not mean that one would not fuck over another tiger for a piece of papre if they had that capacity. I fully agree that animal behavior is not indicative of humans, but that makes me wonder why you brought up polyamorous animals in in the video.
The Bajorans may very well be acting out of emotion, but they were also put on the spot with very little verifiable information to base their decision on.
@@Unlimited_Livesa highly polygamous society leads to lots of angry single young men with nothing to lose, that is the perfect breeding ground for a revolution, that's why monogamy is excellent for societal stability. We are currently experiencing something similar in a lot of western countries, it's not state sanctioned but now there is no stigma against it and there are a lot of people in polygamous relationships, whether they know it or not.
@mjbull5156 Dominant polyamorous cultures are *forced* polyamorous cultures. The polyamory isn't the problem. The forcing is. Western culture's 'headaches' with polyamory are entirely of its own making after centuries of various outdated religious taboos.
A tiger will fuck over a tiger for a tangible immediate gain. It will not fuck one over so that an abstract number goes up. We are the only species who will kill each other for literal zeroes just to say we have more.
Pointing out that polyamory is a naturally dominant phenomena is hardly the same as linking the actions of animals that exhibit it. One is an observation of tangible data. The other is an attempt to x=y. This is not the same thing.
We are in complete agreement about the Bajorans being placed in a very difficult position, and one with significant baggage from their recent history. That's why you don't find me condemning the decision. It's illogical, but that isn't the same as wrong.
I really hope no one walked away from this video thinking the Bajorans are the bad guys here. 🤔
A bunch of people show up whose number is a not insignificant percentage of their own population and just because they happened to show up on their doorstep they're somehow obliged to take them in?
The Bajorans know almost nothing about these people, and what we do know is that there are cultural differences which are almost certain to cause strife, on a world which is still recovering from their own trauma. The Bajorans are being expected/asked to take a huge risk, with some potential but not at all guaranteed upsides.
The Bajoran refusal to let them settle on Bajor is entirely reasonable and judging them on that decision is unfair as they have been put in an impossible position by circumstances outside of their control.
When someone's self-invitation to a place that is yours is refused, sovereignty requires no excuses, good excuses or bad. If it is your house, you get to decide whether to open it up to guests or new residents, not them. You may have to wrestle with that choice and its ramifications, but it is your choice.
The Bajorans are a$$holes. I always watched theirs and thought the Skreeans were better off moving on.
Think about this: If the Bajorans needed food and the Skree had crops, would they take their food and give it to Bajorans? Crops are meant to last a year, until the next harvest. Would the Bajorans take the surplus if it is needed? How would they repay it? It wouldn’t take much for the Skree to become Bajorans forced labor.
Yeah, don't let a bunch of foreigners who rocked up saying their God said your recently freed land is really their homeland. Sure they make nice promises, at first, but it doesn't end well. Just ask the native Palestinians. Because that happened with their homeland in the late forties.
I mean, their land is built on Jewish settlements, you can’t argue that they didn’t steal the homeland from the Jews. It’s not exactly theirs to begin with, while Bajor has always been the home planet of Bajorians.
Free Palestine!!!
@@Ceece20 How are things in Tel Aviv these days? By the way, Occupied Palestine is not synonymous with Judaism and Jewish Identity. Please stop deliberately conflating the two.
@@rhisands2063 I did not conflate anything, so don’t throw that red herring. The area was occupied by Jewish people before any other modern groups including those who claim “occupied Palestine”. It was the Jewish people’s land to begin, with not Palestinians.
@@Ceece20 Then stop referring to Judaism and the Jewish religion when talking about geographical locations and nation states. You are deliberately trying to make them synonymous.
You are doing Middle East trolling and antisemetic trolling 101 by that conflation.
Polyamory is different from non-monogamy. In my experience, poly relationships are dominated by the most financially stable member, so even a modern example of what is happening with the two male partners is unlikely to be generous. She was a wealthy farmer who could afford multiple subservient partners. The unfavorable view of that is a good thing.
Being monogamous is a logical conclusion of intelligence
Upon what are you basing this?