I remember Renzo Gracie saying back in the day you only need a few submission and be really good at them to be successful in mma from the ground game perspective.
Yes, you only need at best 10 submissions, RNC Arm triangle Heel hook Ankle lock Kimura Americana Triangle Knee bar Guillotine Arm bar Those 9 all you really need, got chokes, arm/shoulder breaks, leg breaks
Competition BJJ and Combat BJJ are 2 different things. Trying to be as short as possible: while in grappling there aren't any worries to get punched by someone, in MMA it always exists. Besides, there aren't any rash guards and the few Vaseline fighters get every round break, somehow would make the grappling slippery, round by round (plus sweat and bl...). You just pointed out pretty basic BJJ moves (except for heel hooks), and my thoughts are, that always the simple things prevail and that's why they're called "basics". In the end, a basic BJJ rule is always position before the submission. Applied in MMA, this rule gives a lot of opportunity to g&p, which will force the punished fighter to give the back or roll to the side (RNC, armbar or Triangle Choke); guillotines and anacondas almost always come from bad shooting (don't know if it's written right) or when they turtled. "Everyone as a plan until they get punched in the face" -Myke Tyson
@@tomfreeman8478 I don't know if I did understand; but you can not make a guillotine or anaconda from being mounted. At least, yo need to sweep them, transition into better position (you'd be inside the guard) and then develop your submission of choice.
Exactly. And that's why I keep having these shocking surprises when I run across endless WWE type wrestling mania who think Colby's COLLEGIATE wrestling, at 36 years of age, is going to drown Leon in elite MMA (with MMA being a sport, UNLIKE D1 wrestling, where the whole purpose is to punch or kick an opponent in the face hard enough to instantly KO him)! And these WWE/MMA fans are talking like some guy named Usman --- a bigger, stronger, and taller guy who could do EVERYTHING Colby could do, with the same exact elite wrestling, cardio & pressure that Colby has --- never existed! Don't these silly 4 year-old wrestling fans realize that if what they say about D1 wrestlers like Colby was true... that Colby WOULD HAVE BEEN CHAMP at 170 for years now? With his endless cardio, endless pressure, & D1 chain wrestling ability, why couldn't he easily have, say, rag dolled everyone at 170 & became champ between 28 and 34 years of age? Why does he have to wait until he's almost 36 to rag doll a 6'2" 190lb elite striker with elite take down defense, with very good wrestling & BJJ?, a guy who, twice in a row, dispatched the most dominant champ since GSP?, someone the vaunted D1 failed twice to drown? Fact is, close to 36, neither Usman NOR Colby has more than a 10% of winning the belt, for the first time (for Colby) or again (for Usman)... with younger, bigger, faster, taller, and stronger guys like Leon, Shavkat, Khamzat et al having already arrived on the scene... Neither facts nor common sense, however, seem to reside in the heads of the average MMA and WWE fans.
"Everyone as a plan until they get punched in the face" You fuckers never get tired of that quote which has been repeated one hundred billion times on youtube, do you?
The diversity of submissions has dropped DRAMATICALLY. I remember when we saw far more triangle chokes and kimuras 2008-2015 as well. One thing about RNC is that they are often done when an opponent is already hurt and guillotines are counters to double leg takedowns so they're very useful.
Right, obviously the RNC is one of the best submissions in grappling, but I think we see it disproportionately used because so many fighters give up their backs if they're getting beaten on from top
it was said by Chael Sonnen that most guys give there back and tap to the RNC if they're just way to gassed to fight it or they want to quit the fight fast without risk of being straight up concussed
@@SyntecdragonKinda like Ryan Hall said. The goal is to give someone a bad deal and a very bad deal and make him pick his poison. Between getting pummeled without any chance of resisting and getting choked, the latter is still better., especially if you are not seeing a way out of it.
Triangles, armbars and guilontines are all beginners level submissions. Most guys in UFC are to good to get caught so easily in those submissions. The RNC while also a beginner level submission comes from such a position of advantages that its hard to keep defending, but at the same time usualy when a guy does hit the RNC its after a long period of hand fighting to get it. Rarely is it just slapped on and sunk in super fast
Saying something even SLIGHTLY close to negative about BJJ will get you roasted in the comments. We should just all agree that BJJ is the ultimate life savior in every life-threatening situation, including the octagon, burning houses and jumping out of a plane without a parachute.
@@kallepikku4991the funniest part about that is that Khabib’s base on grappling is not even bjj but Judo and Combat Sambo, he’s still a white bell at jiu jitsu
I think it’s a result of MMA fighters preferring position over submission because of the benefits of GnP over risking it for a sub, but I also think it’s about the lack of super high level submission hunting grapplers in the UFC because of how well rounded you have to be. We don’t have Aoki or Mir or any of those guys who were really creative grapplers at the highest level willing to risk it for the rarer subs so we are getting less variety in finishes.
That’s why even with all the rule changes & improvements on judging criteria to make the sport more realistic, lay & pray/holding someone against the fence will always be the most effective & efficient grappling technique for MMA. The most successful mma grapplers don’t actually have that many finishes on the ground like Merab & Belal
Aoki was Catch wrestler with background in Judo and Freestyle wrestling. He prefers to take the opponents down and, more often than not, dominate from top. The only few times we saw him pulling guard, he got KOed badly (against Ben Askren, Eddie Alvarez, Hayato Sakurai, Joachim Hansen, etc.)
People will use Garry Tonon as an example to prove that heelhooks are useless in MMA but I don't think that's fair. Thanh Le, who knocked out Garry Tonon, trains at 50/fifty, which is Ryan Hall's gym. This isn't an example of heelhooks being "exposed" by ground and pound in MMA, it's an example of heelhooks being confronted with extremely high level heelhook defense from a dude who also has good GnP.
People have the fights of Masakazu Imanari or the properly fights of Ryan hall. Great example of submission by leg lock is anderson silva being submited by Ryo Chonan.
People are stupid. They cherry pick when somebody gets knocked in mma to prove their agenda. If you were saying boxing dosen't work in mma bc sometimes you get knocked out trying, you would be treated as joker. Rightfully tough.
@@rally_chroniclesonly they fail at finishing people, 0 subs, only works combined with striking, sure maybe u can hit a suplex lol. BJJ works in a real fight, as the first UFCs have proven undeniably.
@arnonabuurs7297 the biggest lie you've been sold is that size doesn't matter. Your telling me that if Dan Severn started grounding pounding Gracie he'd stand a chance?
@@rally_chronicles size matters, I know all about it, I'm a 67kg, 50 year old 1.66cm brown belt. if I fight a huge guy, sure it's tough, a big athletic purple might be able to submit me. I have yet too see a big white belt sub me. And I rolled with some hugeeee guys before. There are levels. Size matters, but If I trained 10 years 5 days a week BJJ, and the guy drank beer on the coach, my money is on me.
I feel like in MMA, worrying about being struck negates a lot of submission attempts. Doesn't mean that BJJ is useless, I would argue that it's better to know as many submissions as possible so that the opponent won't know where you're going. The ability to make more parts of the body into a weakness can be a great strength.
Hard disagree. it's pointless trying to do low probability submissions. There is a reason why they're rare. The most important part of BJJ in MMA in my opinion is the positional work, sweeps, and proper techniques to get yourself back on your feet when you're on your back. Go to your bjj gym with a mouth piece/gloves/wraps, start in full guard, and let him punch you. MMA full guard is not an equal position like in pure BJJ.
@@brenner5493 Pointless is a very strong word. Maybe the submissions are simply rare because they aren't drilled enough. Or maybe because the fighters simply don't know them? There's a lot of oddities out there that aren't really used, mostly because they just don't present themselves, but in a sport like MMA, anything can happen, positions can happen from failed striking, or even takedown attempts. While I agree with you that the greatest part of BJJ is earning the position, I do believe preparation for oddities is the perfect way to catch someone off guard. For example, the buggy choke. As much as I hate it for it looking horrible and typically not having a great setup, it is something that can be rewarded if the opponent doesn't see it coming, but you do. Another example, look at Toby Imada's reverse triangle submission win over Jorge Masvidal. That was not an intended setup at all, it looked like an accident to be honest, but Toby saw an opportunity from the mistake and capitalized on it and got an iconic win. Hard disagree on pointless. I agree probability is low, but it's not a bad idea to have some ideas sometimes.
The problem is Mixing Striking and Grappling. The threat of Striking by someone who has Grappling experience or has Grappling Defense ability makes submissions or even getting submission positions very difficult. Fighters don't need to be a great Grappler, just be good at Grappling Defense and know when to strike or how to strike at the weakest Grappling positions.
“fighters don’t need to be good grapplers” explain to me then how habib is undefeated by relying mostly on grappling and Islam in the same boat almost being undefeated. the problem is bjj not grappling as a wholee
@@shredgod6394 Triangle, armbar, guillotine, RNC, calf slicer, D’arce… I mean, how many do you want people to use? That’s quite a few. Even when I’m training pure BJJ I don’t use a hundred different submissions…
I don't think leg locks are cheap, but they're weirdly inverse to chokes. A blood choke, like the RNC, will put you out of the fight (pass out or death) no matter how many drugs you've taken or how strong you are, but they're also basically harmless to train. Leg locks are the opposite. There are life changing consequences to training with the wrong partner with leg locks (reaps, toe holds), imo not worth it at all unless you want to be a career fighter/competitor. Conversely, they don't necessarily take your opponent out of the fight. This is why I'm not a huge fan of them as more of a casual, but I still want to train them in a controlled environment, and most of all, I want to get good at knowing how to avoid getting caught in them, and how to put yourself in a position where early escapes are possible.
great point. glad you pointed that out. Most peoploe neglect to talk abot that in these discussions. Glad we have open minded people in the comments post script.....I am not being sarcastic or facetious, either.
one point about leg locks, reaps, heel hooks etc- if used in an actual fight (street, bar, supermarket...), if the attacker has his knee destroyed, it becomes remarkably easy to get away from the attacker without worrying about getting attacked again...
@@mattconnell3970 my point was it is different than other joint breaks. if I brake a guy's fingers, wrist, elbow, or even shoulder, he is still able chase me and possibly attack again. take out a leg- I dont mean make him tap, I mean destroy his ankle, knee or even a hip joint, and he will not be following you...or even getting back up...
to be fair jujitsu is also about positioning and controlling the body from even a non dominant position, and by introducing rounds and gloves it changes the dynamics...it forces u to be more aggressive and work with the time constraints in an unnatural way (granted in the street I wouldn't want to be too comfortable on the ground either) and the gloves make it harder to not get your hand "trapped" making it harder to be "free"/"fluid" with your hands on offense ...I prefer UFC 1 rules...perhaps we would end up with the same conclusion but we can only speculate now
@@starter47990 yes but multiple champions have had purple or lower belt, and many blackbelts have been dominated by non-blackbelts, so "bjj guys" are not as dominant as they use to be
Despite of the fact people say Rousimar Palhares was a dirty fighter, nobody can deny his abilities when it comes to heel hooks, leg locks and so on. You can clearly see it is a game changer.
@@huwhitecavebeast1972 he was, he went from gym to gym, from promoter to promoter, until he had no career. His antisocial behavior and unsportsmanship destroyed him.
Actually bad judges destroyed his mentality, he was forced more than one time to back to a fight after some opponent "fake tapped" to forfeit and lied about it afterwards, so after that if he gets you he breaks it, no one will fake tap me anymore mentality. Same on ufc bitches crying about judge stops: "oh no, i was okay judge fucked me" and they can't even defend themselves on 2 minute timer left on round, that's pretty much pathetic.
In combat sports like judo and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ), submissions are obviously practical because these martial arts are combat sports, which have rules in place, and with these rules, allow strategies and options. For example, in judo, the strangle 'Sode Guruma Jime' (Sleeve Wheel Constriction - also known as the 'Ezekiel Choke' in BJJ) is a viable option, because the technique requires the individual to take a grip on the inside of their opposite sleeve's gi. This strangle can also work terrifically well in gi-based BJJ. In no-gi BJJ or mixed martial arts (MMA), the above strangle may not be as efficient and practical, due to the lack of a gi. Technically, it could still work by grabbing one's own forearms etc. but it may be more difficult due to lack of gi, sweat on skin etc. Furthermore, some submissions may be less efficient in an MMA setting, as the rules of MMA is different to that of grappling sports, e.g., being allowed to strike opponents. Some submissions however, are much more transferable and practical in an MMA setting. For example, I saw one MMA fight live, where... let's call him 'Blue' was on top of 'Red' in full mount. Blue was raining punches on Red, and Red was covering up to protect themselves. Red reached up to Blue in an attempt to push Blue away and off from themselves, but Blue quickly snatched Red's arm, Blue then dropped off Red's torso, moving to the side and travelled into a Udegi Hishigi Juji Gatame (Back-Lying Perpendicular Armbar... so, they did an armbar) but it worked wonderfully well. Blue took Red by complete surprise, and managed to win the match via submission. Could Blue have won that fight if they just kept on punching? Maybe. But Blue saw the opportunity and took it. Sometimes, to perform a particular technique, you either need to wait for the right opportunity to do so (even if you aren't expecting the opportunity to happen) or you may need to try and create the opportunity. At the end of the day... judo, BJJ, MMA, they are all combat sports, where they are using violent techniques from history, to be used in a competitive sporting match, with the intention to win a match. There are many, many ways to try and 'submit' someone, but the truth is, a practitioner may only be "good" at a few techniques. For example, in judo, there are over 40 ways to try and throw your opponent to the ground, but in reality, you might learn all 40 and above throws, but you will only be "good" at three, or five of those throws. It depends on your personal preferences, as well as your own body (length of your limbs, torso, your height etc.) As for submissions not being used as much in MMA/UFC, or perhaps, failing to be used, I think that's just fighters becoming smarter, adapting, learning how to defend themselves against their opponent's strengths. For example, Ronda Rousey absolutely dominated women's MMA/UFC for a while, but when she fought Hollie Holm, Hollie was able to defend herself against Ronda's strengths (Ronda's grappling) and in turn, Holm was able to greatly utilise her own strength (striking) against Rousey. Another example, when Royce Gracie competed at the first UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship), he won all of his bouts with his BJJ skills. Overtime, people realised that to compete in fighting competition like UFC and/or MMA, competitors must not rely on just one discipline, they need more skills. They adapted to the times.
The fastest submission moves that don't require a lot of steps to pull off are always going to be the most used out of any other submission moves. That and you can't use any gi submission moves in mma, so that cuts out a good portion of submissions from tranditonal gi bjj.
I think something that needs to be brought up here is that most if not all professional fighters are very well versed in BJJ. It is a staple to train and at least understand the game and most importantly how to defend submissions. You dont need to be a master but you do need to have a good understanding of bjj in order to defend yourself. Gone are the days where people were strictly boxers or wrestlers etc. The ignorance of the strengths/weaknesses of the different martial styles does not exist like it used to. MMA truly changes things as it open up so many possibilities from so many positions.
@@kallepikku4991 I mean I think we still see a lot of submissions from bjj in the ufc ? Rear naked choke, guillotine, arm bar/triangles etx... everything is important/has value. Both grappling and striking
We do see submissions but let's not forget BJJ isn't the only grappling art that has submissions. Judo, symbols, freestyle wrestling all have pretty much the same techniques but the practice is different where they work to dominate the opponent and work to get top position. As that's how they score in competition.
The most successful leglocker in MMA could arguably be Rousimar Palhares. Firas Zahabi points out that his way of approaching the single leg takedown gets him immediately in a great position for attacking the legs, different to the typical scramble or imanari roll that we see from other BJJ guys in MMA, where Palhares would takedown his opponents with control then rapidly apply an inescapable heel hook. Of course he was notorious and banned from the UFC extremely righteously so, but his talent was no joke.
BJJ works incredibly well when you put yourself in position where you can submit your opponent without them being able to punch you in the face. Back control will always be king.
@@rally_chroniclesare you serious or joking? People get taken down all the time with their back against the cage, and a fair amount of time it leads to an RNC.
@@rally_chroniclesif you really wanted to with jiu jitsu even if you against a wall I can just grab the back of your neck and shoulder jerk you away from the wall level change get behind you and sleep you being against a wall don’t make you invincible
As soon as a fighter loses once ppl forget about all their wins and dog on them and say their style is ineffective. Rarely is a move or sub perfect, its all about applying it the right way
What i dont see talked about enough is how the threat of leg locks can be used to create space. I dont think we should be classifying their successful ness just on the number of subs but also by how many times fighters were able to create space and recover position. Aljo does it in his fights against yan 1 and 2, fig and moreno 3 and 4, oli vs poirier
Very true, it's a game of chess on the ground and a leg lock attempt is more often a play to advance your position/open up another finish rather than a checkmate itself.
Others in the comments may have explained this better, but MMA guys have experienced heel hooks and other grappling attacks many times. They are also trained to balance on their opponent and ground and pound effectively. These factors combined make finishing a sub difficult against an MMA fighter. An opponent unfamiliar with submission grappling would be helpless against Ryan Hall, of course. (I really felt it when Hall got knocked out, but come on- he iminari rolled with zero set up like 10 times and just got punished for it the whole time)
Also important to realize that it has worked for Ryan many many times against professional fighters who know it's coming. Sometimes you get beat. No style is perfect their are opportunities/openings everywhere. People underestimate the importance of surprise as well. These professional fighters with years of experience are preparing against a specific set of skills the guy brings to the table. Months and months of defending heel hooks/imanari rolls day in day out
@@jareddias7932 Yeah, for something to become a crutch, it gotta be so good that whoever leans on it does that all the time. And while people figured it out eventually, it worked for quite a good amount of time.
It never ceases to amaze me, how people equate top athletes competing in a sport, to "real fighting" and/or "real self defense". You will never get armbared by a purse snatcher, nor a rapist, nor an enemy soldier. It will never happen. People discard all the martial arts based upon what elite athletes with elite fitness and elite strength do when fighting each other in a cage 1 on 1 with rules and at equal weight.
Abandon is a crazy word to use. Obviously they use their training. If they “abandoned” their martial arts training then that means theyre no better at fighting than someone who hasnt.
There'd be more heel hooks in mma if more jiu jitsu guys transitioned to MMA but for one, the pay is alot better than it used to be in bjj and the ruleset and judging criteria favors wrestlers and strikers alot more
Wahahhaahahaha. Every round gets started on the feet if you're not progressing on the ground you get stood up yet you say the ruleset favors grapples. Also no knees to a grounded opponent only makes it better for strikers only people like aljo would be in danger of them. If islam throws you and lands in side control he wil blow ur head of with knees.
@@geekpeak5052 ufc is corupt scoring control time over damage. wrestlers are favoured. commentators are biased. harping on the refs for standing them up. and telling the fans control time matters. the casuals buy that crap and support the wrestlers. ufc also supports the wrestlers too much. like bo nickel lesnar chmiaez getting over pushed.
I find that almost all basic submissions/positioning/reversals from BJJ work in MMA. It is the more complex ones that are rarely seen, and for good reason. Most BJJ fighters now don't adapt to the situation at hand....be it in the street or in the ring. They feel like they have to prove the art's "superiority" by going after complex subs rather than trying to finish the fight as soon as possible.. NOW......that is just from my perspective. It isn't the art that makes the victory, rather the practitioner and his choice in tools to utilize in combat.
The saa arts vs arts era is OVER! It no longer makes sense for BJJ to be a complete art as it was until the 2000s. After the other arts learned the core of Vale Tudo Jiujitsu, and the fighters started to train wrestler + strike + bjj... wrestlers outperformed Jiu Jitsu fighters in takedown control and strikers outperformed Jiujitsu fighters in standup, Jiu Jitsu is only superior in submission, and Jiujitsu fighters now have to train wrestlers with expert wrestlers and strike with specialist strikers. So what's the point of keeping these things in BJJ? It's better to specialize and create a sport that can grow and fund art. MMA it's a sum of arts and specialists, but ALL need to adapt their game to MMA because only about 30% of their techniques work in MMA, be it boxing, kick boxing, wrestling or BJJ... And this full arts story is pure FALSE ADVERTISING, there is no combat sambo, combat sambo is MMA without a cage, combat sambo fighters don't train combat sambo, they train wrestler, sambo, judo, bjj, sanda, kick boxing, boxing, etc JUST LIKE IN MMA. And when they go to professional MMA they don't even train sambo anymore, they train wrestler, kick boxing and bjj.However, they take their hip drops to the wrestler. Kabib used to train BJJ to death, there's even a video of him saying that there was no subimission game in Sambo at the time of UFC 1, there's a video of DC congratulating him for winning submission of the night that he'd been training jiujitsu like crazy for so many years had paid off.At the beginning of his career he only tied the fight and won on points or ground and pound, at the end of his career he starts to submit, after a decade training jiujitsu with the best.
The main issue with jiu jitsu in mma is the lack of efficient takedowns like in wrestling and lack of ground and pound offense and defense. However i have seen someone use rubberguard and strike from their back without fear of retaliation so there is definently room for improvement but only if all aspects of mma are taken into consideration
@Jake-oq2bq I said "Jiu Jitsu in Mma" for that specific reason. We're on the same page for the most part but I typically don't see as much wrestling in Bjj as I do guard pulling and butt scooting
As of 2024, over 20 different submission techniques have been used to finish UFC fights. Some of the most common submissions include: Rear-Naked Choke Guillotine Choke Armbar Triangle Choke Kimura Anaconda Choke D'Arce Choke Americana Heel Hook Kneebar Omoplata Ezekiel Choke Twister North-South Choke Peruvian Necktie Von Flue Choke Some more unique and rare submissions have also been used, such as the Suloev Stretch or Bulldog Choke.
The argument is probably that leg locking is the BJJ kryptonite. It is used to win in BJJ and it works extremely effectively. However, and this is just conjecture, maybe the old bitter Brazilians knew enough about leg locking to understand that it was SO specialised that it wouldn’t transition easily into Vale Tudo or full on fighting? Just putting it out there, I could be wrong of course. That said, Frank Mir’s submission of Brock is still my favourite submission of all time.
Brazilians are disgustingly vain. They managed to appropriate a Japanese art for themselves just because it was developed there. Now smart people that aren't Brazilians are furthering the game, and they're SEETHING about it
I'm not so sure. I believe Oswaldo Fadda had a team that beat the Gracie team with leg locks which they specialised in and the Gracies referrer to it as ghetto Jiu Jitsu. It's also worth mentioning that Fadda taught Jiu Jitsu to people in the slums whereas the Gracies taught the gentry who could afford a gi.
My opinion has changed a bit as well on the old Brazilians philosophy. I suspect they knew that hyperspecializing wasn't that great of an idea long term and just led to more unwanted injuries for little gain.
I love this channel because it’s clear from your commentary that you actually train. (Unlike a lot of other mma UA-camrs)
Рік тому+4
So basically you're saying that the most used submissions in MMA are the ones any BJJ white belt learns first. I'm BJJ blue belt and I just use those submissions you mentioned: RNC, d'arce, arm triangle and arm bar.
Indeed many bjj submissions are way too exotic and barely even work in bjj, let alone mma. However bjj is not only about subs but also escapes/positional changes and therefor i would never call it useless.
Well thats why when you start doing MMA your jiu-jitsu may start being focused on common submissions because some submissions that work really well in BJJ may open you up to bad ground and pound. Also holding bottom becomes available only to the best of the best grapplers since it takes a high level to not get fd up before locking a submission
BJJ is the only art you cannot skip training in MMA. Straight boxers or wrestlers lose to straight BJJ all the time. You have to learn BJJ to be submission aware and learn to defend them.
A successful heel hook requires all 4 limbs to control 1 limb of your opponent and their hips. If you're a little bit off on your control your opponent will escape and will have position while you're not really able to defend yourselve from strikes (because you're still holding onto the legs). In sport BJJ this results in a regard or sweep but in mma would result in a KO. The refinements required to make leglocks successful in MMA are likely not worth the time investment in training even if the risks weren't there.
The leglock optimization is not there for one big reason. No one--including in jiu-jitsu--is focusing on applying leglocks from *top* position. (In mma it'd still only be an adjunct attack--GnP is still there but more immediate.) Still, when you're on bottom, even at best it'll still always be high reward/high risk of getting murked.
MMA at the highest levels has evolved past a single discipline, including bjj. Ryan Hall and Kron are the best examples of what happens when you don't evolve your skills
Neither of those are dominate wrestlers they have 0 belts & fought 0 fighters with actual skills. Oh & they fought 0 grapplers, only cherry picked kickboxers
Kron is a fool and of all fucking people should know better. The son of the biggest hater of sport BJJ, and he sits on his butt in a UFC octagon. Brian Ortega and Rob Whittaker are much better Gracie Jiu-Jitsu representatives (who train under Rener and Royler respectively).
Good point but I think Choi bar and some platas def has a place in mma; it just needs to be learned by more mma ppl. there are def setups where they are very viable in mma cuz these no gi subs aim at solving the lack of stickiness that surrounds arm bar or even triangle. These also are not some weird sub like buggy where u gotta put ur self in a bad position to get
Anyone else feel like RNC's aren't submissions that fighters specifically aim to go for but like the sub that eventually presents itself when the guy on the bottom concedes his position to escape ground-and-pound? And when the bottom guy turns away to avoid strikes or stand up they don't have a way to protect their neck and prevent getting choked from behind.
There's more to BJJ than just the finishes listed. Granted, those may be the easiest to finish with statistically(although I'm kind of surprised to not see the Von Flue choke in there somewhere), there's more to it than just a handful of submissions. It's body movement on the ground and control to set up other things, too (e.g. as was mentioned, set ups for GNP). And it's an ever evolving art. So, to say that it's useless in the moment(which isn't true anyway)doesn't mean it's useless forever. This is how things like 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu came along. Seeing something that someone thought needed tweaking, and so they made changes to make it fit more for the cage. Well, even if it's not a complete process, it's still ongoing.
Combat BJJ has some great uses; but look at fighters like Khabib, who just dominates by weaponizing pressure and incredible wrestling skills. When a fire is smothered, it goes out. That's what Khabib did with his incredible conditioning and intensity and skill.
Fundamentally, building a skillset around being on bottom is a losing strategy. You could catch some unaware wrestlers cold, but is this a consistently winning strategy? You're eventually gonna find someone you can't tap, then you spend the rest of the round on bottom getting beat up. A good sprawl & brawl striker can still win even if they don't get the KO, but a leg lock specialist can't if they aren't going to get the sub. And it takes a lot less skill to not get subbed than it is to get one, so they don't even need to be as good as you. Opportunity cost comes into play, any strategy can work, but why not pick the one with the least downsides? If you specialise in one, you can't in the other.
The answer is simple. BJJ won three UFC titles and was undefeated in five events so people learned it. The modern MMA fighter knows BJJ along with other grappling styles such as Judo and catch wrestling and can use and defend against them.
Right. Every person who says BJJ doesn't work in MMA ends up citing the records of guys who either are BJJ black belts or receive constant coaching from one
Fighters have evolved, and they've done so by incorporating BJJ into their game. To say BJJ doesn't work is stupid because BJJ is being used to counter BJJ in many cases. Everyone who fights today also does BJJ. No discipline stands alone anymore, thats why they call it Mixed Martial Arts.
Did boxing stopped working coz MMA fighters learned the basics of boxing? Did wrestling stopped working coz MMA fighters learned the basics of wrestling? If you answered both of these "No", then we can safely say that bjj uses parlor tricks to overpower gullible opponents. Once these basic tricks are known, they stop working.
I guess everyone forgot that a guy who only trains BJJ, in a GI, won the first UFC tournament against people who mostly trained in punching and kicking.
The practice of positional and submission escape make you better at surviving bad positions.... I don't think that only submission is the determiner of usefulness of bjj in mma. But I do think there too little emphasis on takedowns and punching defense in most Bjj gyms. It could be cool to see the stats submission and positional escapes in mma
Speaking of Dean Lister, the new meta may actually be straight ankle locks, B team were trying to problem solve it and couldn’t once the attacker gets outside ashi, so it may not just be HH’s
some people survive ankle locks by just letting their feet tendons pop then continue to grapple, but imagine finishing an ankle lock then standing up and getting them to strike with you 💀
@@alexanderokak5112the ref would call off the fight... or the doctor would. Obvious limping or a tendon tearing is almost certain to end the fight even if the fighter wants to continue.
@@danila4322 well I suppose Dean Lister winning world championship level competitions with straight ankle locks is just bullshit then, and I suppose Nicky Ryan’s knowledge of Jiu Jitsu pales in comparison to yours seeing as he couldn’t problem solve it
The start of your video: I think it’s more fair, to look at how many fights were finished, when talking about BJJ finishes. About 45~55% fights go to decision. Meaning that, that 98/511 is closer to 98/250. Something else to consider is, so many strikers take BJJ specifically to learn how to defend, and punish wrestlers. Unlike wrestling, kickboxing/boxing it’s rare to find fighters who grew up with BJJ, and put as much into it as others. Yet you still see this much success with it. I just don’t know if this could be said with any other combat sport. (If a guy picked up wrestling for only a few months, or few years. He’s just not going to be great at shooting. Similarly, a guy who grew up wrestling and picked up striking later in life, while still definitely can/will get knock outs. It’s not like it’s all that common to see then get wins mainly using it.) To be clear, I’m not talking about the exception. But rather the “rule”. Though please correct me if I’m completely wrong. This is just what I’ve seen/noticed.
Palhares, Hall, Imanari, Aoki and Roger seem to get as far as anyone can with a very jiu jitsu oriented game. Guys like Maia, Werdum, Burns and Olivera are elite because they developed really good striking or really good wrestling. Also keep in mind in MMA there are weight classes. Jiu jitsu is not only not working, it's not working against guys similar in size. Jiu Jitsu with no strikes in a Gi should die off, it's not 1993 anymore.
Wouldnt call Maia or Werdum really good striking. Both average at best. BJJ was Maia's thing, his problem was when he got to a high level wrestler, he couldnt take them down. Burns and Oliviera do have high level striking though. The guy I would look forward to seeing is Gary Tonon. Totally original unique grappling with unorthodox striking.
Burns does not have good striking, his power shots are telegraphed & nowhere near as strong as his fangirls claimed literally punched himself in the face windmill swinging at WB, it’s almost as dogshit as Justin gaycheese boxing where he slips on his ass throwing looping haymakers. You never kickboxed or even done a Karate a day in your life huh ?
in 93 jiujitsu had everything, today it doesn't, Arona only trained jiujitsu and took down wrestlers, Paulo Filho too, Today Jiu jitsu only has newaza, it is an art AND specialist, EQUAL BOXE or wrestler, But until 2000 it was Vale Tudo, it was complete, but with a focus on submission, simple strike, simple wrestler and good submission and ground game.
It's really no different than a street fight, bjj schools don't teach self defense, it's suited to teach competition training which doesn't apply to the cage or the streets
Remember when Ryan Hall Imanari rolled his heart out against Topuria while shooting for leg locks, only to get KO'd from an awkward position? That's why you don't see as many successful leg locks in mma.
You guys are literally crippling each other with these leg locks. Do you ever stop to think about that? Basically every old head jujitsu guy I meet has completely destroyed joints. Maybe focus less on the moves that are literally crippling you and your friends? Is that a crazy idea?
Umm. Scrambling, transitions from bottom, Guard passing, escapes and general muscle memory. It’s not all about submissions and finishing ability. Jiu Jitsu is important as long as there are wrestlers in the sport.
The reason is because a majority of BJJ black belt will lower in belt skill for every punch in the face as they’re not used to KO threatening punches. That’s why you see Gilbert Burns or Dustin not use their black belt skills bc their BJJ crumbles under pressure while Charles doesn’t
This video doesn't address the possibility that even if there are only 4 or 5 submissions that finish, other submissions can be effective and help being victory and are important to learn because the threat of the submission will cause the other guy to give up a position for an even worse position and make it easier for you to win .
The only thing is there’s only so much time to train even if your training 5-6 hours a day 5 days a week. Why are you gonna practice low percentage submission from bottom, and lose the fight vs. spending more time improving your TDD.
@@rico14 I agree not much point with learning more subs from bottom, but take the kimura for example. sure it rarely finishes them in mma, but that's because they roll and turn and give up the mount or the back instead. so should you never learn the kimura? Often when your opponent feels you working towards a submission, they feel the need to adjust because of that threat and that adjustment they make gives you the opportunity to go for something else.
Well most of jiujitsu submissions don't work on jiujitsu itslef. Some can surprise at low levels. But as soon as you reach the top: its all the same all over again: chocke from the back, arm bar, kimura, leglocks... Same thing in mma
4:10 there is one difference that is significant, if you look at larger sample sizes than just ADCC and include all major Submission grappling tournaments you'll find the inside heel hook at #2, that is the Heel hook is a top tier submission in BJJ but in MMA it's mid tier here's a rough breakdown of submissions in 2022 in BJJ Name % Rear Naked 0.2734225621 Inside Heel Hook 0.1615678776 Armbar 0.1022944551 Outside Heel Hook 0.06405353728 Guillotine 0.06118546845 as you can tell the Heel hooks are almost as good as the RNC and the top 5 subs make up 2/3rds of all submissions.
I think the main reason we only see rear naked chokes is that the overwhelming majority of ufc fighters give up their backs and based on sheer numbers the RNC occurs the most often. Its the clear choice from the back.
@@americandissident9062 Well, guillotines aren't really that much closer, the reason its so high up is because wrestling is so prevalent. If a fighter messes up a takedown he is essentially open for a high wrist guillotine.
After Rousimar Palhares, a lot of people in the sport of MMA started looking down on leg attacks. While still legal, a lot of guy do not want to fight someone who my cause an injury that is so hard to over come. A good example of this is the side kick or push kick strike to the knee that was made popular by Jon Jones. It is an effective strike but it is hard to find fights for someone who utilized that technique effectively.
A ton of guys already made a system around heel hooks and tried to make it work in MMA. Dean Lister, Imanari, Paul Harris, Ryan Hall, Garry Tonon. The problem is just that a lot of things have to go right to get a positive result (submission) while only a few things have to go wrong to get a negative result (getting punched in da face). You can train certain techniques all you want but if that guy covered in sweat gets out you just spent all your energy on the takedown for nothing while you could have been on top landing punches and winning the round. The best place for heel hooks seems to be from bottom to force the guy to move which creates space to get up (the heel hook attempt gets you up but does not appear in the statistics). The Brazilians back then trained only exclusively for vale tudo or open fighting so they carefully selected their techniques and tactics around that specific situation. Hence the whole position before submission etc. While in nogi you can drop to seated guard and attempt all kinds of leg entanglements while only having to worry about getting passed or counter leg locked.
NOTE: Some submission moves have the same (or lower) success rate in MMA as a spinning wheel kick. Why do I bring this up? To point out that if we are all basing successful techniques based on what is actually working in that sport.... We HAVE to accept the numbers as they are and not do the old school martial art thing of claiming "Oh a move would work if the right people did it" Sit with that for a bit yawl.
Bjj is probably like a flying knee or spinning heel kick at this point. It does work you just have to be really good at sneaking a submission during a transition
theres also the fact that since in MMA you need to train kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ. many MMA guys become jack of all trades but even the "good" MMA boxers get made silly by a lot of boxing specialists. a lot of MMA gyms don't go over certain concepts in BJJ that are more advanced. Nick's gogoplata is super rare and advanced tbh for an MMA guy since a lot of them IMO don't even earn their black belts. You can't tell me Periera is a brown belt with a straight face. The standards for most combat areas is lower in MMA because being well rounded matters far more. The days of being very advanced in one area but severely lacking in most others is over.
I’m sure someone has said this but “position over submission”. I assume whoever made this video doesn’t roll? All due respect and sorry if you do. But yeah for the most part, as a discipline bjj requires a lot of position work. It’s why showing Islam on top of Charles illuminates that well but it certainly doesn’t make bjj worthless. But yes no doubt elite Sambo is much much better bc of the positional awareness with striking involved. Many dominant bjj positions require setups designed with no striking involved. The reason a go go is so hard to land is 1. Yes it requires flexibility but 2. The position and patience needed would be near impossible to attain in a fight with strikes. The thing ppl don’t understand about sambo is it doesn’t feature submissions. But again bc of the belt system, elite bjj is usually superior to a very solid sambo artist but once you get into elites, I would take sambo for their all around work exploiting body control striking first mentality vs a bjj black belt focused on positional strength with massive stroke openings . But if you found yourself in a trap, you’re not getting away
Some of the BJJ moves I've seen are great for demonstration with a willing participant, but highly unlikely to actually work in a fight against a resisting opponent that's constantly moving, and that's because there's too many steps involved. If a technique has a bunch of steps where you need the opponent's arm a specific way, and you need to be positioned a specific way, and you need to switch your grips in the middle of the technique, or you need to be at a specific angle in order to execute the move correctly otherwise it won't work at all, then it's not a reliable technique, and I see that BJJ has a lot of them, which is why out of all the different moves, there's only a handful that fighters consistently use because they work most of the time. The rest is just unrealistic, flashy nonsense.
@@MasoNowa I'm talking about moves that require multiple steps to perform correctly otherwise they won't work at all, and BJJ has a lot of them. When you look at BJJ demonstrations, and then compare it to competitions, you'll notice only a handful of moves that will work most of the time while the other techniques with multiple steps typically will not work.
@@danman6612 have you ever trained BJJ? Every move in MMA and any of the respective arts requires a set up and it's concerning you don't think that's the case
Another reason you don't see a lot of heel hooks in mma, is because in grappling matches you don't get your face punched in when holding on to the leg with both arms.
I think the main problem is that when it requires specialization to the Ryan Hall/Garry Tonon level, everyone's going to be watching tape on you and know it's coming, making it a lot harder.
I'm about 3.5 years into Jiu jitsu and finding that the fundamental high percentage submissions are really worth putting time into but then also trying to throw some slightly more odd ball ones in to mix it up and try see if I can make more high percentage like Rear Sankakus ect. I feel like even becoming highly effecient at the fundamentals could take like 10 years
Can't we put kids into BJJ like the Thais put kids into muay Thai? I feel like muay Thai is much more dangerous and prejudicial to the kids growing I'm brazillian and I'm willing to sacrifice some kids knees to the leglock so our martial art can evolve
90% of all the submissions in the history of the UFC have been BJJ SUBMISSIONS: arm bar, triangle choke, rear naked choke, guillotine choke, darce choke, arm triangle, .....all BJJ SUBMISSIONS!!!
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. - Bruce Lee
Strongly disagree here. High level bjj in mma is very important. as we saw in the Khabib and Connor fight, it’s not only the success of the move but the constant threat as well. Khabib set up the overhand right with the threat of a takedown. Arguably, the fighter that got closest to beating khamzat was Gilbert burns, that’s because he forced him into a striking match after threatening with that triangle choke.
I've fought several jiu-jitsu fanboys, and they all cried after the 1st punch. Were they Gordon Ryans? No. But they were silly little bjjfanboys running their mouth on youtube comment sections. Hahaha.
Choi bar, tarikoplata, boston crab, squirrel lock, Houdini. none of these are staples, lol. is this a troll? The armbar doesn't have a fear of anything breaking, just hyperextention?? What do you think happens when you hyperextend the arm past the elbow? The DDS hit heel hooks on each other all the time. . . You don't know BJJ or MMA dude. This video is the equivalent a linked in article.
You sound like a 2 stripe white belt. No shit those submissions aren't staples of jiu jitsu that's the joke. And when you attack the arm bar you're putting pressure on the elbow joint which will eventually tear, not break. Gordan Ryan said himself on JRE how difficult it is for the squad members to catch eachother in heelhooks because they all specialized in it.
Maybe a good stat to look up is -how many punches are landed in the UFC fights compared to knockouts. vs how many submission attempts there are and how many convert to finishing a fight. 1 successful sub is a fight ender. Landing many successful punches cannot guarantee that.
And high level wrestlers who don't know BJJ almost always get destroyed as well : royce alger, kevin jackson, dan severn, mark coleman. There are pretty much no wrestlers in today's mma who don't train in BJJ. And almost all of them have BJJ black belts already. And we've also seen plenty of wrestlers get whooped by good strikers with a BJJ base, such as Burns vs Woodley, Masvidal vs Askren, Thompson vs. Hendricks, McGregor vs Mendes, Zombie vs. Edgar, Rutten vs. Randleman, GSP vs Hughes, Penn vs Hughes, Machida vs Ortiz/Couture/Sonnen, etc. No matter how many trolling comments you write to discredit BJJ, there is no denying that learning BJJ as a base (or second discipline) is an absolute requirement no matter what martial art you do. It complements wrestling, as well as all the striking arts.
You bring up a lot of very good points about fancy submissions: It's easier to learn how to counter them, than it is to learn how to do them on a skilled person. The amount of time training on them can be better spent on training your basic control, leveraging punches from a dominant position and choking.
But if you're a BJJ athlete you're training maintaining a dominant position as-well as these submissions, in which you also have to learn submission defense, takedown defense, and more to even get an opportunity to use these submissions, so you're still preparing for ground game with or without "fancy submissions"
Brazilians didn't think leglocks were inneficient, it's just that the Faddas beat the Gracies in BJJ using leglocks, so it became a culture that using leglocks was classeles, lack of proper technique or a cheating way to win. Until today there is a lot of the public in MMA that think that leglocks are kind of cheating. Thanks to people like John Danaher and Melqui Galvao this mentality has been fixed and today brazilians are much more open to learn and apply leglocks. I really do not understand why some americans keep saying these things about brazilians being this or that, put some respect on these people you guys owe them far more than they owe you in this sport...
Oh ya? What do you call Vinny magalhaes saying leg locks don't work and he'll never tap to them then him getting his leg brutalized against Craig Jones in SUG? Sounds like he thought they were inefficient
@@cameronharper4554 It's one fighter. I'm talking about the culture of the whole martial art. For every brazilian that you name who didn't think leglocks are efficient i can name another who think they are, Rousimar Palhares or Melqui Galvao for example. So it's really just cherry picking.
I wouldn't call two professionals who train at these disciplines daily an accurate depiction of "a real fight." It's exponentially more difficult to pull off any martial technique on a person who is also familiar with the techniques than it is some random dude on the street. So does BJJ work in a street fight, absolutely. However, the more skilled your opponent the more you'll have to rely on what are called "high percentage" techniques. In his defense this is about MMA. BUT If your main concern is self defense, it's undeniable
I have no idea how people can point out 3 moves we rarely trained, to be real, i have literally used multiple chokes an arm subs, both in training, ring an many in street fights without ever really having to choke anyone out or break anything. Unless your fighting a group its very useful. But we trained mostly in practical moves an conditioning..... that being said, I mean moves that people tend to come out easier as they are trained hardcore😊
Definitely is essential knowing some BJJ Nothing is the greatest bit knowing a good bunch of all techniques for all is safe. Especially in real life where there are no rules. To get you out of a dangerous situation or at least have self awareness that you have skills when needed.
THE LEGENDARY BOSTON CRAB
Walls of Jericho*
y2k
Boston crab works I used to do it to my little brother all the time
@@Charles-yf5bkhe never stood a chance
Boston crab works
I remember Renzo Gracie saying back in the day you only need a few submission and be really good at them to be successful in mma from the ground game perspective.
Because BJJ gets negged by any decent grappler who is allowed to ground & pound, BJJ is worthless for MMA, you don’t need it to become a champion
Yes, you only need at best 10 submissions,
RNC
Arm triangle
Heel hook
Ankle lock
Kimura
Americana
Triangle
Knee bar
Guillotine
Arm bar
Those 9 all you really need, got chokes, arm/shoulder breaks, leg breaks
Renzo was unbelievable in MMA. The arm break by Sakuraba is distributing to this day
Are you counting anaconda and Darce under arm triangle?@@realtruth1448
Competition BJJ and Combat BJJ are 2 different things.
Trying to be as short as possible: while in grappling there aren't any worries to get punched by someone, in MMA it always exists. Besides, there aren't any rash guards and the few Vaseline fighters get every round break, somehow would make the grappling slippery, round by round (plus sweat and bl...).
You just pointed out pretty basic BJJ moves (except for heel hooks), and my thoughts are, that always the simple things prevail and that's why they're called "basics".
In the end, a basic BJJ rule is always position before the submission. Applied in MMA, this rule gives a lot of opportunity to g&p, which will force the punished fighter to give the back or roll to the side (RNC, armbar or Triangle Choke); guillotines and anacondas almost always come from bad shooting (don't know if it's written right) or when they turtled.
"Everyone as a plan until they get punched in the face"
-Myke Tyson
Guillotines, anacondas,etc also come from playing the “grounded fighter” game. Cejudo should have taken advantage of that.
@@tomfreeman8478 I don't know if I did understand; but you can not make a guillotine or anaconda from being mounted. At least, yo need to sweep them, transition into better position (you'd be inside the guard) and then develop your submission of choice.
Exactly.
And that's why I keep having these shocking surprises when I run across endless WWE type wrestling mania who think Colby's COLLEGIATE wrestling, at 36 years of age, is going to drown Leon in elite MMA (with MMA being a sport, UNLIKE D1 wrestling, where the whole purpose is to punch or kick an opponent in the face hard enough to instantly KO him)!
And these WWE/MMA fans are talking like some guy named Usman --- a bigger, stronger, and taller guy who could do EVERYTHING Colby could do, with the same exact elite wrestling, cardio & pressure that Colby has --- never existed!
Don't these silly 4 year-old wrestling fans realize that if what they say about D1 wrestlers like Colby was true... that Colby WOULD HAVE BEEN CHAMP at 170 for years now? With his endless cardio, endless pressure, & D1 chain wrestling ability, why couldn't he easily have, say, rag dolled everyone at 170 & became champ between 28 and 34 years of age?
Why does he have to wait until he's almost 36 to rag doll a 6'2" 190lb elite striker with elite take down defense, with very good wrestling & BJJ?, a guy who, twice in a row, dispatched the most dominant champ since GSP?, someone the vaunted D1 failed twice to drown?
Fact is, close to 36, neither Usman NOR Colby has more than a 10% of winning the belt, for the first time (for Colby) or again (for Usman)... with younger, bigger, faster, taller, and stronger guys like Leon, Shavkat, Khamzat et al having already arrived on the scene...
Neither facts nor common sense, however, seem to reside in the heads of the average MMA and WWE fans.
theres probably a reason why bjj guys dominate in this sport. im surprised most ufc fighters arent purple belts or higher.
"Everyone as a plan until they get punched in the face"
You fuckers never get tired of that quote which has been repeated one hundred billion times on youtube, do you?
The diversity of submissions has dropped DRAMATICALLY. I remember when we saw far more triangle chokes and kimuras 2008-2015 as well. One thing about RNC is that they are often done when an opponent is already hurt and guillotines are counters to double leg takedowns so they're very useful.
Right, obviously the RNC is one of the best submissions in grappling, but I think we see it disproportionately used because so many fighters give up their backs if they're getting beaten on from top
it was said by Chael Sonnen that most guys give there back and tap to the RNC if they're just way to gassed to fight it or they want to quit the fight fast without risk of being straight up concussed
RNC is basically a way out for the losing fighter.
@@SyntecdragonKinda like Ryan Hall said. The goal is to give someone a bad deal and a very bad deal and make him pick his poison. Between getting pummeled without any chance of resisting and getting choked, the latter is still better., especially if you are not seeing a way out of it.
Triangles, armbars and guilontines are all beginners level submissions. Most guys in UFC are to good to get caught so easily in those submissions. The RNC while also a beginner level submission comes from such a position of advantages that its hard to keep defending, but at the same time usualy when a guy does hit the RNC its after a long period of hand fighting to get it. Rarely is it just slapped on and sunk in super fast
Saying something even SLIGHTLY close to negative about BJJ will get you roasted in the comments. We should just all agree that BJJ is the ultimate life savior in every life-threatening situation, including the octagon, burning houses and jumping out of a plane without a parachute.
Too many bjjnazis panting off to Khabib's T-shirt.
@@kallepikku4991the funniest part about that is that Khabib’s base on grappling is not even bjj but Judo and Combat Sambo, he’s still a white bell at jiu jitsu
The thumbnail is “bjj is useless” not exactly “slightly negative”
@@Mr_Wohlerwell BJJ and judo and sambo use the exact same submissions so is there really a difference in the end?
I jump out of planes in the turtle position, always.
I think it’s a result of MMA fighters preferring position over submission because of the benefits of GnP over risking it for a sub, but I also think it’s about the lack of super high level submission hunting grapplers in the UFC because of how well rounded you have to be. We don’t have Aoki or Mir or any of those guys who were really creative grapplers at the highest level willing to risk it for the rarer subs so we are getting less variety in finishes.
Tbf, you're also risking losing the position while attempting GnP.
That’s why even with all the rule changes & improvements on judging criteria to make the sport more realistic, lay & pray/holding someone against the fence will always be the most effective & efficient grappling technique for MMA. The most successful mma grapplers don’t actually have that many finishes on the ground like Merab & Belal
@@DADRB0B55 Merab and Belal are wrestlers. BJJ grapplers are like Maia, Burns, Jacare.
Exactly jiu jitsu is about position over submission when appropriate
Aoki was Catch wrestler with background in Judo and Freestyle wrestling. He prefers to take the opponents down and, more often than not, dominate from top.
The only few times we saw him pulling guard, he got KOed badly (against Ben Askren, Eddie Alvarez, Hayato Sakurai, Joachim Hansen, etc.)
People will use Garry Tonon as an example to prove that heelhooks are useless in MMA but I don't think that's fair. Thanh Le, who knocked out Garry Tonon, trains at 50/fifty, which is Ryan Hall's gym. This isn't an example of heelhooks being "exposed" by ground and pound in MMA, it's an example of heelhooks being confronted with extremely high level heelhook defense from a dude who also has good GnP.
People have the fights of Masakazu Imanari or the properly fights of Ryan hall. Great example of submission by leg lock is anderson silva being submited by Ryo Chonan.
People are stupid. They cherry pick when somebody gets knocked in mma to prove their agenda. If you were saying boxing dosen't work in mma bc sometimes you get knocked out trying, you would be treated as joker. Rightfully tough.
This guy gets it
Ryan Hall wrote the book on 50/50 and heel hooks
Thank you! Thanh Le is know for have phenomenal leg defense.
Bjj is not only about submissions, it’s also a whole movement system
Wrestling is far superior. Negates all of it + Striking.
I wish people understood this more. Bjj is not about submissions, it’s about everything that happens in between
@@rally_chroniclesonly they fail at finishing people, 0 subs, only works combined with striking, sure maybe u can hit a suplex lol. BJJ works in a real fight, as the first UFCs have proven undeniably.
@arnonabuurs7297 the biggest lie you've been sold is that size doesn't matter. Your telling me that if Dan Severn started grounding pounding Gracie he'd stand a chance?
@@rally_chronicles size matters, I know all about it, I'm a 67kg, 50 year old 1.66cm brown belt. if I fight a huge guy, sure it's tough, a big athletic purple might be able to submit me. I have yet too see a big white belt sub me. And I rolled with some hugeeee guys before. There are levels. Size matters, but If I trained 10 years 5 days a week BJJ, and the guy drank beer on the coach, my money is on me.
I feel like in MMA, worrying about being struck negates a lot of submission attempts. Doesn't mean that BJJ is useless, I would argue that it's better to know as many submissions as possible so that the opponent won't know where you're going. The ability to make more parts of the body into a weakness can be a great strength.
The defense and the risk of getting gnp outweighs the bjj in a sense if it's not set up properly
Hard disagree. it's pointless trying to do low probability submissions. There is a reason why they're rare. The most important part of BJJ in MMA in my opinion is the positional work, sweeps, and proper techniques to get yourself back on your feet when you're on your back. Go to your bjj gym with a mouth piece/gloves/wraps, start in full guard, and let him punch you. MMA full guard is not an equal position like in pure BJJ.
@@brenner5493 Pointless is a very strong word. Maybe the submissions are simply rare because they aren't drilled enough. Or maybe because the fighters simply don't know them? There's a lot of oddities out there that aren't really used, mostly because they just don't present themselves, but in a sport like MMA, anything can happen, positions can happen from failed striking, or even takedown attempts. While I agree with you that the greatest part of BJJ is earning the position, I do believe preparation for oddities is the perfect way to catch someone off guard. For example, the buggy choke. As much as I hate it for it looking horrible and typically not having a great setup, it is something that can be rewarded if the opponent doesn't see it coming, but you do. Another example, look at Toby Imada's reverse triangle submission win over Jorge Masvidal. That was not an intended setup at all, it looked like an accident to be honest, but Toby saw an opportunity from the mistake and capitalized on it and got an iconic win.
Hard disagree on pointless. I agree probability is low, but it's not a bad idea to have some ideas sometimes.
The problem is Mixing Striking and Grappling. The threat of Striking by someone who has Grappling experience or has Grappling Defense ability makes submissions or even getting submission positions very difficult.
Fighters don't need to be a great Grappler, just be good at Grappling Defense and know when to strike or how to strike at the weakest Grappling positions.
“fighters don’t need to be good grapplers” explain to me then how habib is undefeated by relying mostly on grappling and Islam in the same boat almost being undefeated. the problem is bjj not grappling as a wholee
@@meyr1992I think he means to be competitive, that's not the same as being Khabib
@@Boxing_Gamer so khabib is not competitive?
@@meyr1992 no mor than just competitive, was my point
@@meyr1992i think he is talking about bjj guys who lie on back to throw submissions. Khabib was alwyz on top bcz of wrestling
Olivera slander will not be tolerated
its not slander if its true lol
@@parkourguyyyBut it isn’t.
Tf you mean? Oliveira only uses a handful of submissions too
Doesn’t Oliveira has the most submission wins in UFC history ?…
@@shredgod6394 Triangle, armbar, guillotine, RNC, calf slicer, D’arce… I mean, how many do you want people to use? That’s quite a few. Even when I’m training pure BJJ I don’t use a hundred different submissions…
I don't think leg locks are cheap, but they're weirdly inverse to chokes. A blood choke, like the RNC, will put you out of the fight (pass out or death) no matter how many drugs you've taken or how strong you are, but they're also basically harmless to train.
Leg locks are the opposite. There are life changing consequences to training with the wrong partner with leg locks (reaps, toe holds), imo not worth it at all unless you want to be a career fighter/competitor. Conversely, they don't necessarily take your opponent out of the fight.
This is why I'm not a huge fan of them as more of a casual, but I still want to train them in a controlled environment, and most of all, I want to get good at knowing how to avoid getting caught in them, and how to put yourself in a position where early escapes are possible.
Exactly, I hate seeing dudes get their knees torn to shreds for no reason, and they usually don’t even have time to tap. It’s horrible.
great point. glad you pointed that out. Most peoploe neglect to talk abot that in these discussions. Glad we have open minded people in the comments
post script.....I am not being sarcastic or facetious, either.
one point about leg locks, reaps, heel hooks etc- if used in an actual fight (street, bar, supermarket...), if the attacker has his knee destroyed, it becomes remarkably easy to get away from the attacker without worrying about getting attacked again...
@@williambenson1477 yeah its not any different than any other joint breaking sub
@@mattconnell3970 my point was it is different than other joint breaks. if I brake a guy's fingers, wrist, elbow, or even shoulder, he is still able chase me and possibly attack again. take out a leg- I dont mean make him tap, I mean destroy his ankle, knee or even a hip joint, and he will not be following you...or even getting back up...
to be fair jujitsu is also about positioning and controlling the body from even a non dominant position, and by introducing rounds and gloves it changes the dynamics...it forces u to be more aggressive and work with the time constraints in an unnatural way (granted in the street I wouldn't want to be too comfortable on the ground either) and the gloves make it harder to not get your hand "trapped" making it harder to be "free"/"fluid" with your hands on offense ...I prefer UFC 1 rules...perhaps we would end up with the same conclusion but we can only speculate now
BJJ is an ELEMENT of MMA. So you cannot say BJJ is usless against MMA because BJJ is part of MMA
@@starter47990 yes but multiple champions have had purple or lower belt, and many blackbelts have been dominated by non-blackbelts, so "bjj guys" are not as dominant as they use to be
Despite of the fact people say Rousimar Palhares was a dirty fighter, nobody can deny his abilities when it comes to heel hooks, leg locks and so on. You can clearly see it is a game changer.
He was a dirty fighter, a sociopath. But there is no question that if he had been a good sportsman, he would have been a Hall of Famer in the UFC.
That dude should be permanently banned from fight sports and barred from going to any gym every again.
@@huwhitecavebeast1972 he was, he went from gym to gym, from promoter to promoter, until he had no career. His antisocial behavior and unsportsmanship destroyed him.
Actually bad judges destroyed his mentality, he was forced more than one time to back to a fight after some opponent "fake tapped" to forfeit and lied about it afterwards, so after that if he gets you he breaks it, no one will fake tap me anymore mentality. Same on ufc bitches crying about judge stops: "oh no, i was okay judge fucked me" and they can't even defend themselves on 2 minute timer left on round, that's pretty much pathetic.
Gifted grappler, nutcase mentality. Dude has more problems than a pedophile in prison.
In combat sports like judo and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ), submissions are obviously practical because these martial arts are combat sports, which have rules in place, and with these rules, allow strategies and options.
For example, in judo, the strangle 'Sode Guruma Jime' (Sleeve Wheel Constriction - also known as the 'Ezekiel Choke' in BJJ) is a viable option, because the technique requires the individual to take a grip on the inside of their opposite sleeve's gi. This strangle can also work terrifically well in gi-based BJJ.
In no-gi BJJ or mixed martial arts (MMA), the above strangle may not be as efficient and practical, due to the lack of a gi. Technically, it could still work by grabbing one's own forearms etc. but it may be more difficult due to lack of gi, sweat on skin etc.
Furthermore, some submissions may be less efficient in an MMA setting, as the rules of MMA is different to that of grappling sports, e.g., being allowed to strike opponents. Some submissions however, are much more transferable and practical in an MMA setting.
For example, I saw one MMA fight live, where... let's call him 'Blue' was on top of 'Red' in full mount. Blue was raining punches on Red, and Red was covering up to protect themselves. Red reached up to Blue in an attempt to push Blue away and off from themselves, but Blue quickly snatched Red's arm, Blue then dropped off Red's torso, moving to the side and travelled into a Udegi Hishigi Juji Gatame (Back-Lying Perpendicular Armbar... so, they did an armbar) but it worked wonderfully well. Blue took Red by complete surprise, and managed to win the match via submission.
Could Blue have won that fight if they just kept on punching? Maybe. But Blue saw the opportunity and took it. Sometimes, to perform a particular technique, you either need to wait for the right opportunity to do so (even if you aren't expecting the opportunity to happen) or you may need to try and create the opportunity.
At the end of the day... judo, BJJ, MMA, they are all combat sports, where they are using violent techniques from history, to be used in a competitive sporting match, with the intention to win a match.
There are many, many ways to try and 'submit' someone, but the truth is, a practitioner may only be "good" at a few techniques. For example, in judo, there are over 40 ways to try and throw your opponent to the ground, but in reality, you might learn all 40 and above throws, but you will only be "good" at three, or five of those throws. It depends on your personal preferences, as well as your own body (length of your limbs, torso, your height etc.)
As for submissions not being used as much in MMA/UFC, or perhaps, failing to be used, I think that's just fighters becoming smarter, adapting, learning how to defend themselves against their opponent's strengths. For example, Ronda Rousey absolutely dominated women's MMA/UFC for a while, but when she fought Hollie Holm, Hollie was able to defend herself against Ronda's strengths (Ronda's grappling) and in turn, Holm was able to greatly utilise her own strength (striking) against Rousey.
Another example, when Royce Gracie competed at the first UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship), he won all of his bouts with his BJJ skills. Overtime, people realised that to compete in fighting competition like UFC and/or MMA, competitors must not rely on just one discipline, they need more skills. They adapted to the times.
The fastest submission moves that don't require a lot of steps to pull off are always going to be the most used out of any other submission moves. That and you can't use any gi submission moves in mma, so that cuts out a good portion of submissions from tranditonal gi bjj.
why not making gi mma then, which is combat sambo
@@MrAntinexus I'm sure there are.
I think something that needs to be brought up here is that most if not all professional fighters are very well versed in BJJ. It is a staple to train and at least understand the game and most importantly how to defend submissions. You dont need to be a master but you do need to have a good understanding of bjj in order to defend yourself. Gone are the days where people were strictly boxers or wrestlers etc. The ignorance of the strengths/weaknesses of the different martial styles does not exist like it used to. MMA truly changes things as it open up so many possibilities from so many positions.
@@kallepikku4991 I mean I think we still see a lot of submissions from bjj in the ufc ? Rear naked choke, guillotine, arm bar/triangles etx... everything is important/has value. Both grappling and striking
@@kallepikku4991you also see tons of fights going yo decision, bjj just isnt scored properly in mma, and the short rounds dont help bjj at
We do see submissions but let's not forget BJJ isn't the only grappling art that has submissions. Judo, symbols, freestyle wrestling all have pretty much the same techniques but the practice is different where they work to dominate the opponent and work to get top position. As that's how they score in competition.
The most successful leglocker in MMA could arguably be Rousimar Palhares. Firas Zahabi points out that his way of approaching the single leg takedown gets him immediately in a great position for attacking the legs, different to the typical scramble or imanari roll that we see from other BJJ guys in MMA, where Palhares would takedown his opponents with control then rapidly apply an inescapable heel hook. Of course he was notorious and banned from the UFC extremely righteously so, but his talent was no joke.
ryan hall by far surpasses rousimar as a mma leglocker
One mistake and you might never walk properly. He made BJJ scary in MMA as it should be.
@@SHERMA. idk about that but I havent watched both of their careers closely so you could be right
@@alexanderokak5112 i figured when you started off the sentence "the best leg locker in mma" that you might of actually been educated on the topic
@@SHERMA.Paul Harris had way better setups
BJJ works incredibly well when you put yourself in position where you can submit your opponent without them being able to punch you in the face. Back control will always be king.
i'll fight you with my back against the wall. Now what? Yeah...
@@rally_chroniclesare you serious or joking? People get taken down all the time with their back against the cage, and a fair amount of time it leads to an RNC.
@bellevuepersonaltraining4602 and they use wrestling to take them down and a choke is a choke.
@@rally_chroniclesso simple, you must be a world champion given how easily you've figured it all out 😂
@@rally_chroniclesif you really wanted to with jiu jitsu even if you against a wall I can just grab the back of your neck and shoulder jerk you away from the wall level change get behind you and sleep you being against a wall don’t make you invincible
As soon as a fighter loses once ppl forget about all their wins and dog on them and say their style is ineffective. Rarely is a move or sub perfect, its all about applying it the right way
What i dont see talked about enough is how the threat of leg locks can be used to create space. I dont think we should be classifying their successful ness just on the number of subs but also by how many times fighters were able to create space and recover position. Aljo does it in his fights against yan 1 and 2, fig and moreno 3 and 4, oli vs poirier
Very true, it's a game of chess on the ground and a leg lock attempt is more often a play to advance your position/open up another finish rather than a checkmate itself.
Great point.
Others in the comments may have explained this better, but MMA guys have experienced heel hooks and other grappling attacks many times. They are also trained to balance on their opponent and ground and pound effectively. These factors combined make finishing a sub difficult against an MMA fighter. An opponent unfamiliar with submission grappling would be helpless against Ryan Hall, of course. (I really felt it when Hall got knocked out, but come on- he iminari rolled with zero set up like 10 times and just got punished for it the whole time)
Also important to realize that it has worked for Ryan many many times against professional fighters who know it's coming. Sometimes you get beat. No style is perfect their are opportunities/openings everywhere. People underestimate the importance of surprise as well. These professional fighters with years of experience are preparing against a specific set of skills the guy brings to the table. Months and months of defending heel hooks/imanari rolls day in day out
@@jareddias7932 Yeah, for something to become a crutch, it gotta be so good that whoever leans on it does that all the time. And while people figured it out eventually, it worked for quite a good amount of time.
It never ceases to amaze me, how people equate top athletes competing in a sport, to "real fighting" and/or "real self defense".
You will never get armbared by a purse snatcher, nor a rapist, nor an enemy soldier. It will never happen.
People discard all the martial arts based upon what elite athletes with elite fitness and elite strength do when fighting each other in a cage 1 on 1 with rules and at equal weight.
Time to change that
Abandon is a crazy word to use. Obviously they use their training. If they “abandoned” their martial arts training then that means theyre no better at fighting than someone who hasnt.
There'd be more heel hooks in mma if more jiu jitsu guys transitioned to MMA but for one, the pay is alot better than it used to be in bjj and the ruleset and judging criteria favors wrestlers and strikers alot more
because of no knees to downed oponents strikers are at a disadvantage. failed takedowns have no risk which gives bjj / wrestling a massive advantage.
I dislike wrestlers. They can literally just pin u down, inflict no damage and still win even if its even on the feet.
Wahahhaahahaha. Every round gets started on the feet if you're not progressing on the ground you get stood up yet you say the ruleset favors grapples. Also no knees to a grounded opponent only makes it better for strikers only people like aljo would be in danger of them. If islam throws you and lands in side control he wil blow ur head of with knees.
And no testing
@@geekpeak5052 ufc is corupt scoring control time over damage. wrestlers are favoured. commentators are biased. harping on the refs for standing them up. and telling the fans control time matters. the casuals buy that crap and support the wrestlers. ufc also supports the wrestlers too much. like bo nickel lesnar chmiaez getting over pushed.
I find that almost all basic submissions/positioning/reversals from BJJ work in MMA. It is the more complex ones that are rarely seen, and for good reason. Most BJJ fighters now don't adapt to the situation at hand....be it in the street or in the ring. They feel like they have to prove the art's "superiority" by going after complex subs rather than trying to finish the fight as soon as possible.. NOW......that is just from my perspective. It isn't the art that makes the victory, rather the practitioner and his choice in tools to utilize in combat.
The saa arts vs arts era is OVER!
It no longer makes sense for BJJ to be a complete art as it was until the 2000s.
After the other arts learned the core of Vale Tudo Jiujitsu, and the fighters started to train wrestler + strike + bjj... wrestlers outperformed Jiu Jitsu fighters in takedown control and strikers outperformed Jiujitsu fighters in standup, Jiu Jitsu is only superior in submission, and Jiujitsu fighters now have to train wrestlers with expert wrestlers and strike with specialist strikers.
So what's the point of keeping these things in BJJ?
It's better to specialize and create a sport that can grow and fund art.
MMA it's a sum of arts and specialists, but ALL need to adapt their game to MMA because only about 30% of their techniques work in MMA, be it boxing, kick boxing, wrestling or BJJ...
And this full arts story is pure FALSE ADVERTISING, there is no combat sambo, combat sambo is MMA without a cage, combat sambo fighters don't train combat sambo, they train wrestler, sambo, judo, bjj, sanda, kick boxing, boxing, etc JUST LIKE IN MMA. And when they go to professional MMA they don't even train sambo anymore, they train wrestler, kick boxing and bjj.However, they take their hip drops to the wrestler.
Kabib used to train BJJ to death, there's even a video of him saying that there was no subimission game in Sambo at the time of UFC 1, there's a video of DC congratulating him for winning submission of the night that he'd been training jiujitsu like crazy for so many years had paid off.At the beginning of his career he only tied the fight and won on points or ground and pound, at the end of his career he starts to submit, after a decade training jiujitsu with the best.
Garry Tonon is starting to implement new BJJ into mma
He was knocked out trying to leg lock somebody in a UFC fight.
@@BOBBOB-tx7oxhe never fought in the ufc
@@TheLenchoufc fight, not ufc
@@tylerharaf5901q your sentence made no sense
@@orion_7726 UFC fight as in using UFC as a blanket term for an MMA fight
The main issue with jiu jitsu in mma is the lack of efficient takedowns like in wrestling and lack of ground and pound offense and defense. However i have seen someone use rubberguard and strike from their back without fear of retaliation so there is definently room for improvement but only if all aspects of mma are taken into consideration
people always pull guard nowadays i try to do wrestling takedowns
you can win a ton of Jiu jitsu tournaments while never even considering punches.
Then in MMA a lot of positions you used to be safe in get you lit up
@@shwheat6315 I like judo throws
@@jacksypher3403the best thing is even if you fail the legs are still there. BJJ comp guys won’t even stand with me anymore
@Jake-oq2bq I said "Jiu Jitsu in Mma" for that specific reason. We're on the same page for the most part but I typically don't see as much wrestling in Bjj as I do guard pulling and butt scooting
As of 2024, over 20 different submission techniques have been used to finish UFC fights. Some of the most common submissions include:
Rear-Naked Choke
Guillotine Choke
Armbar
Triangle Choke
Kimura
Anaconda Choke
D'Arce Choke
Americana
Heel Hook
Kneebar
Omoplata
Ezekiel Choke
Twister
North-South Choke
Peruvian Necktie
Von Flue Choke
Some more unique and rare submissions have also been used, such as the Suloev Stretch or Bulldog Choke.
The argument is probably that leg locking is the BJJ kryptonite. It is used to win in BJJ and it works extremely effectively. However, and this is just conjecture, maybe the old bitter Brazilians knew enough about leg locking to understand that it was SO specialised that it wouldn’t transition easily into Vale Tudo or full on fighting? Just putting it out there, I could be wrong of course. That said, Frank Mir’s submission of Brock is still my favourite submission of all time.
the brazilians hes talking about are mostly BJJ specialists also, but usually they would do Gi and No Gi tournaments so that may be a factor
Brazilians are disgustingly vain. They managed to appropriate a Japanese art for themselves just because it was developed there.
Now smart people that aren't Brazilians are furthering the game, and they're SEETHING about it
I'm not so sure. I believe Oswaldo Fadda had a team that beat the Gracie team with leg locks which they specialised in and the Gracies referrer to it as ghetto Jiu Jitsu. It's also worth mentioning that Fadda taught Jiu Jitsu to people in the slums whereas the Gracies taught the gentry who could afford a gi.
@Jake-oq2bq what's the source on that? People have been grappling for thousands of years and the human body hasn't changed...
My opinion has changed a bit as well on the old Brazilians philosophy. I suspect they knew that hyperspecializing wasn't that great of an idea long term and just led to more unwanted injuries for little gain.
I love this channel because it’s clear from your commentary that you actually train. (Unlike a lot of other mma UA-camrs)
So basically you're saying that the most used submissions in MMA are the ones any BJJ white belt learns first. I'm BJJ blue belt and I just use those submissions you mentioned: RNC, d'arce, arm triangle and arm bar.
Submissions:
1) Rear Naked Choke
2) Gulliotine
3) Arm Triangle
4) Arm Bar
5) Darce
Indeed many bjj submissions are way too exotic and barely even work in bjj, let alone mma. However bjj is not only about subs but also escapes/positional changes and therefor i would never call it useless.
Well thats why when you start doing MMA your jiu-jitsu may start being focused on common submissions because some submissions that work really well in BJJ may open you up to bad ground and pound. Also holding bottom becomes available only to the best of the best grapplers since it takes a high level to not get fd up before locking a submission
BJJ is an ELEMENT of MMA. So you cannot say BJJ is usless against MMA because BJJ is part of MMA
That’s because most ufc fighters suck at submissions. They get their black belts because they win fights….. not because they’re improving at BJJ
MMA doesn’t work in a gun fight. Duh. Guns don’t work in a missile fight. Cars don’t work in a boat fight.
BJJ is the only art you cannot skip training in MMA. Straight boxers or wrestlers lose to straight BJJ all the time. You have to learn BJJ to be submission aware and learn to defend them.
A successful heel hook requires all 4 limbs to control 1 limb of your opponent and their hips. If you're a little bit off on your control your opponent will escape and will have position while you're not really able to defend yourselve from strikes (because you're still holding onto the legs). In sport BJJ this results in a regard or sweep but in mma would result in a KO. The refinements required to make leglocks successful in MMA are likely not worth the time investment in training even if the risks weren't there.
The leglock optimization is not there for one big reason. No one--including in jiu-jitsu--is focusing on applying leglocks from *top* position. (In mma it'd still only be an adjunct attack--GnP is still there but more immediate.) Still, when you're on bottom, even at best it'll still always be high reward/high risk of getting murked.
MMA at the highest levels has evolved past a single discipline, including bjj. Ryan Hall and Kron are the best examples of what happens when you don't evolve your skills
Wrestling still dominates, Bo Nickal, Khamzat etc etc
@@seetsamolapo5600khamzat also has great bjj and judo(I think) to compliment his wrestling along with solid kickboxing. He’s far from just a wrestler
Neither of those are dominate wrestlers they have 0 belts & fought 0 fighters with actual skills. Oh & they fought 0 grapplers, only cherry picked kickboxers
So what happens is a significantly above average mma fighter?
Kron is a fool and of all fucking people should know better. The son of the biggest hater of sport BJJ, and he sits on his butt in a UFC octagon.
Brian Ortega and Rob Whittaker are much better Gracie Jiu-Jitsu representatives (who train under Rener and Royler respectively).
Good point but I think Choi bar and some platas def has a place in mma; it just needs to be learned by more mma ppl. there are def setups where they are very viable in mma cuz these no gi subs aim at solving the lack of stickiness that surrounds arm bar or even triangle. These also are not some weird sub like buggy where u gotta put ur self in a bad position to get
How viable is it to keep drilling choi bars, knowing if they fail you are on bottom VS staying in half guard (turk) and drop bombs to win the round?
Anyone else feel like RNC's aren't submissions that fighters specifically aim to go for but like the sub that eventually presents itself when the guy on the bottom concedes his position to escape ground-and-pound? And when the bottom guy turns away to avoid strikes or stand up they don't have a way to protect their neck and prevent getting choked from behind.
There's more to BJJ than just the finishes listed.
Granted, those may be the easiest to finish with statistically(although I'm kind of surprised to not see the Von Flue choke in there somewhere), there's more to it than just a handful of submissions. It's body movement on the ground and control to set up other things, too (e.g. as was mentioned, set ups for GNP).
And it's an ever evolving art. So, to say that it's useless in the moment(which isn't true anyway)doesn't mean it's useless forever. This is how things like 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu came along. Seeing something that someone thought needed tweaking, and so they made changes to make it fit more for the cage. Well, even if it's not a complete process, it's still ongoing.
Combat BJJ has some great uses; but look at fighters like Khabib, who just dominates by weaponizing pressure and incredible wrestling skills. When a fire is smothered, it goes out. That's what Khabib did with his incredible conditioning and intensity and skill.
Fundamentally, building a skillset around being on bottom is a losing strategy. You could catch some unaware wrestlers cold, but is this a consistently winning strategy? You're eventually gonna find someone you can't tap, then you spend the rest of the round on bottom getting beat up. A good sprawl & brawl striker can still win even if they don't get the KO, but a leg lock specialist can't if they aren't going to get the sub. And it takes a lot less skill to not get subbed than it is to get one, so they don't even need to be as good as you. Opportunity cost comes into play, any strategy can work, but why not pick the one with the least downsides? If you specialise in one, you can't in the other.
Could not agree more.
Less things can go wrong with takedowns into top control and even if it only works half it still gets you the round.
The answer is simple. BJJ won three UFC titles and was undefeated in five events so people learned it. The modern MMA fighter knows BJJ along with other grappling styles such as Judo and catch wrestling and can use and defend against them.
Right. Every person who says BJJ doesn't work in MMA ends up citing the records of guys who either are BJJ black belts or receive constant coaching from one
Fighters have evolved, and they've done so by incorporating BJJ into their game. To say BJJ doesn't work is stupid because BJJ is being used to counter BJJ in many cases. Everyone who fights today also does BJJ. No discipline stands alone anymore, thats why they call it Mixed Martial Arts.
@praywithoutceasing4939 In some cases maybe.
Did boxing stopped working coz MMA fighters learned the basics of boxing?
Did wrestling stopped working coz MMA fighters learned the basics of wrestling?
If you answered both of these "No", then we can safely say that bjj uses parlor tricks to overpower gullible opponents. Once these basic tricks are known, they stop working.
I guess everyone forgot that a guy who only trains BJJ, in a GI, won the first UFC tournament against people who mostly trained in punching and kicking.
Love how you analyze the stats bro 🔥🔥
The practice of positional and submission escape make you better at surviving bad positions.... I don't think that only submission is the determiner of usefulness of bjj in mma.
But I do think there too little emphasis on takedowns and punching defense in most Bjj gyms.
It could be cool to see the stats submission and positional escapes in mma
Speaking of Dean Lister, the new meta may actually be straight ankle locks, B team were trying to problem solve it and couldn’t once the attacker gets outside ashi, so it may not just be HH’s
some people survive ankle locks by just letting their feet tendons pop then continue to grapple, but imagine finishing an ankle lock then standing up and getting them to strike with you 💀
@@alexanderokak5112the ref would call off the fight... or the doctor would. Obvious limping or a tendon tearing is almost certain to end the fight even if the fighter wants to continue.
where did you see this about the b team and straight ankle locks. i would like to see it
That’s bullshit, ankle locks work on white belts but that’s it
@@danila4322 well I suppose Dean Lister winning world championship level competitions with straight ankle locks is just bullshit then, and I suppose Nicky Ryan’s knowledge of Jiu Jitsu pales in comparison to yours seeing as he couldn’t problem solve it
The start of your video:
I think it’s more fair, to look at how many fights were finished, when talking about BJJ finishes.
About 45~55% fights go to decision.
Meaning that, that 98/511 is closer to 98/250.
Something else to consider is, so many strikers take BJJ specifically to learn how to defend, and punish wrestlers.
Unlike wrestling, kickboxing/boxing it’s rare to find fighters who grew up with BJJ, and put as much into it as others. Yet you still see this much success with it.
I just don’t know if this could be said with any other combat sport.
(If a guy picked up wrestling for only a few months, or few years. He’s just not going to be great at shooting. Similarly, a guy who grew up wrestling and picked up striking later in life, while still definitely can/will get knock outs. It’s not like it’s all that common to see then get wins mainly using it.)
To be clear, I’m not talking about the exception. But rather the “rule”.
Though please correct me if I’m completely wrong. This is just what I’ve seen/noticed.
Palhares, Hall, Imanari, Aoki and Roger seem to get as far as anyone can with a very jiu jitsu oriented game. Guys like Maia, Werdum, Burns and Olivera are elite because they developed really good striking or really good wrestling. Also keep in mind in MMA there are weight classes. Jiu jitsu is not only not working, it's not working against guys similar in size. Jiu Jitsu with no strikes in a Gi should die off, it's not 1993 anymore.
Wouldnt call Maia or Werdum really good striking. Both average at best. BJJ was Maia's thing, his problem was when he got to a high level wrestler, he couldnt take them down. Burns and Oliviera do have high level striking though. The guy I would look forward to seeing is Gary Tonon. Totally original unique grappling with unorthodox striking.
Well I guess everyone will stop now because some guy on the internet said so...
@gsp3428 stop it. Werdum was a very good mma striker, anyone who could stand and bang with Mark Hunt wasn't fucking average.
Burns does not have good striking, his power shots are telegraphed & nowhere near as strong as his fangirls claimed literally punched himself in the face windmill swinging at WB, it’s almost as dogshit as Justin gaycheese boxing where he slips on his ass throwing looping haymakers. You never kickboxed or even done a Karate a day in your life huh ?
in 93 jiujitsu had everything, today it doesn't, Arona only trained jiujitsu and took down wrestlers, Paulo Filho too, Today Jiu jitsu only has newaza, it is an art AND specialist, EQUAL BOXE or wrestler, But until 2000 it was Vale Tudo, it was complete, but with a focus on submission, simple strike, simple wrestler and good submission and ground game.
1:06 the most used are obviously the most effective ones, no risks
Jiu jitsu is a lot different when you train with strikes. Sport jiu jitsu vs self defense jiu jitsu opened my eyes.
It's really no different than a street fight, bjj schools don't teach self defense, it's suited to teach competition training which doesn't apply to the cage or the streets
BJJ is great for self defence since 99% of the time you’ll be fighting someone who absolutely has no idea what they’re doing.
Until they pull a knife.
@@Andrew-un8tx they’d be already sleeping by that time.
@@fimmyk Nope. I worked bouncing strip clubs for years. You're gonna get hurt, kiddo.
1:22 Guess what? In our local and regional BJJ tournaments, those submissions were the most used. RNC, guillotine, etc.
Remember when Ryan Hall Imanari rolled his heart out against Topuria while shooting for leg locks, only to get KO'd from an awkward position? That's why you don't see as many successful leg locks in mma.
You guys are literally crippling each other with these leg locks. Do you ever stop to think about that? Basically every old head jujitsu guy I meet has completely destroyed joints. Maybe focus less on the moves that are literally crippling you and your friends? Is that a crazy idea?
Bjj is so bad for joints its scary.
Youre basically tring to break your oppenents joints so they tap, not healthy but what can u do
Umm. Scrambling, transitions from bottom, Guard passing, escapes and general muscle memory. It’s not all about submissions and finishing ability. Jiu Jitsu is important as long as there are wrestlers in the sport.
More like: Jiu-jitsu would be important if there were no wrestlers in the sport.
The reason is because a majority of BJJ black belt will lower in belt skill for every punch in the face as they’re not used to KO threatening punches. That’s why you see Gilbert Burns or Dustin not use their black belt skills bc their BJJ crumbles under pressure while Charles doesn’t
Burns has great jiu jitsu under pressure
And yet Usman made him look silly with a simple jab, coz he refused to pull guard to impose his bjj.
you show Conner when you said rear naked choke however he was finished with a fulcrum choke which is different and involves crushing the persons jaw.
This video doesn't address the possibility that even if there are only 4 or 5 submissions that finish, other submissions can be effective and help being victory and are important to learn because the threat of the submission will cause the other guy to give up a position for an even worse position and make it easier for you to win .
The only thing is there’s only so much time to train even if your training 5-6 hours a day 5 days a week. Why are you gonna practice low percentage submission from bottom, and lose the fight vs. spending more time improving your TDD.
@@rico14 I agree not much point with learning more subs from bottom, but take the kimura for example. sure it rarely finishes them in mma, but that's because they roll and turn and give up the mount or the back instead. so should you never learn the kimura? Often when your opponent feels you working towards a submission, they feel the need to adjust because of that threat and that adjustment they make gives you the opportunity to go for something else.
Well most of jiujitsu submissions don't work on jiujitsu itslef. Some can surprise at low levels. But as soon as you reach the top: its all the same all over again: chocke from the back, arm bar, kimura, leglocks... Same thing in mma
More MMA Che please 🙏
4:10 there is one difference that is significant, if you look at larger sample sizes than just ADCC and include all major Submission grappling tournaments you'll find the inside heel hook at #2, that is the Heel hook is a top tier submission in BJJ but in MMA it's mid tier
here's a rough breakdown of submissions in 2022 in BJJ
Name %
Rear Naked 0.2734225621
Inside Heel Hook 0.1615678776
Armbar 0.1022944551
Outside Heel Hook 0.06405353728
Guillotine 0.06118546845
as you can tell the Heel hooks are almost as good as the RNC and the top 5 subs make up 2/3rds of all submissions.
I think the main reason we only see rear naked chokes is that the overwhelming majority of ufc fighters give up their backs and based on sheer numbers the RNC occurs the most often. Its the clear choice from the back.
Theyd rather turtle and stand up
@@dynamicmotion1735 That's what I'm saying. Just Stand Up
So then why are RNC and guillotine the most popular BJJ subs as well?
@@americandissident9062 Well, guillotines aren't really that much closer, the reason its so high up is because wrestling is so prevalent. If a fighter messes up a takedown he is essentially open for a high wrist guillotine.
After Rousimar Palhares, a lot of people in the sport of MMA started looking down on leg attacks. While still legal, a lot of guy do not want to fight someone who my cause an injury that is so hard to over come. A good example of this is the side kick or push kick strike to the knee that was made popular by Jon Jones. It is an effective strike but it is hard to find fights for someone who utilized that technique effectively.
A ton of guys already made a system around heel hooks and tried to make it work in MMA.
Dean Lister, Imanari, Paul Harris, Ryan Hall, Garry Tonon.
The problem is just that a lot of things have to go right to get a positive result (submission) while only a few things have to go wrong to get a negative result (getting punched in da face).
You can train certain techniques all you want but if that guy covered in sweat gets out you just spent all your energy on the takedown for nothing while you could have been on top landing punches and winning the round.
The best place for heel hooks seems to be from bottom to force the guy to move which creates space to get up (the heel hook attempt gets you up but does not appear in the statistics).
The Brazilians back then trained only exclusively for vale tudo or open fighting so they carefully selected their techniques and tactics around that specific situation. Hence the whole position before submission etc.
While in nogi you can drop to seated guard and attempt all kinds of leg entanglements while only having to worry about getting passed or counter leg locked.
NOTE: Some submission moves have the same (or lower) success rate in MMA as a spinning wheel kick.
Why do I bring this up? To point out that if we are all basing successful techniques based on what is actually working in that sport....
We HAVE to accept the numbers as they are and not do the old school martial art thing of claiming "Oh a move would work if the right people did it"
Sit with that for a bit yawl.
Bjj is probably like a flying knee or spinning heel kick at this point. It does work you just have to be really good at sneaking a submission during a transition
everyone seems to forget that Illia Toupuria has arguably better BJJ/grappling than Ryan Hall and Bryce Mitchell
yeha people forget topuria's a freakin black belt
theres also the fact that since in MMA you need to train kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ. many MMA guys become jack of all trades but even the "good" MMA boxers get made silly by a lot of boxing specialists. a lot of MMA gyms don't go over certain concepts in BJJ that are more advanced. Nick's gogoplata is super rare and advanced tbh for an MMA guy since a lot of them IMO don't even earn their black belts. You can't tell me Periera is a brown belt with a straight face. The standards for most combat areas is lower in MMA because being well rounded matters far more. The days of being very advanced in one area but severely lacking in most others is over.
Why did you put "good MMA boxers" in brackets? They are good. Because they box responsibly, to not to get kicked or taken down.
@@paulbadman8509He didn't.
Who cares about the black belt? They mean nothing. Lots of BJJ black belts got outgrappled by guys who don't have any belts at all.
Yet Pereira would destroy any bjj black belt in a fight.
Just goes to prove he knows enough that is relevant to real fighting, not that bjj "fighting"
I’m sure someone has said this but “position over submission”. I assume whoever made this video doesn’t roll? All due respect and sorry if you do. But yeah for the most part, as a discipline bjj requires a lot of position work. It’s why showing Islam on top of Charles illuminates that well but it certainly doesn’t make bjj worthless. But yes no doubt elite Sambo is much much better bc of the positional awareness with striking involved. Many dominant bjj positions require setups designed with no striking involved. The reason a go go is so hard to land is 1. Yes it requires flexibility but 2. The position and patience needed would be near impossible to attain in a fight with strikes. The thing ppl don’t understand about sambo is it doesn’t feature submissions. But again bc of the belt system, elite bjj is usually superior to a very solid sambo artist but once you get into elites, I would take sambo for their all around work exploiting body control striking first mentality vs a bjj black belt focused on positional strength with massive stroke openings . But if you found yourself in a trap, you’re not getting away
Some of the BJJ moves I've seen are great for demonstration with a willing participant, but highly unlikely to actually work in a fight against a resisting opponent that's constantly moving, and that's because there's too many steps involved. If a technique has a bunch of steps where you need the opponent's arm a specific way, and you need to be positioned a specific way, and you need to switch your grips in the middle of the technique, or you need to be at a specific angle in order to execute the move correctly otherwise it won't work at all, then it's not a reliable technique, and I see that BJJ has a lot of them, which is why out of all the different moves, there's only a handful that fighters consistently use because they work most of the time. The rest is just unrealistic, flashy nonsense.
There is no such thing as BJJ moves on a willing participant in a competition.
I'm talking about moves on a willing participant in a demonstration. In a competition, many of those moves don't work.
@@danman6612 regular schools do not teach any of those moves. What school tried to teach you those moves?
@@MasoNowa I'm talking about moves that require multiple steps to perform correctly otherwise they won't work at all, and BJJ has a lot of them. When you look at BJJ demonstrations, and then compare it to competitions, you'll notice only a handful of moves that will work most of the time while the other techniques with multiple steps typically will not work.
@@danman6612 have you ever trained BJJ? Every move in MMA and any of the respective arts requires a set up and it's concerning you don't think that's the case
I don't ever remember seeing a submission in Modern MMA History that isn't from BJJ. This guy is just a fancy hater.
do a a video on best fighters to learn from beginners-advanced
Another reason you don't see a lot of heel hooks in mma, is because in grappling matches you don't get your face punched in when holding on to the leg with both arms.
I think the main problem is that when it requires specialization to the Ryan Hall/Garry Tonon level, everyone's going to be watching tape on you and know it's coming, making it a lot harder.
I'm about 3.5 years into Jiu jitsu and finding that the fundamental high percentage submissions are really worth putting time into but then also trying to throw some slightly more odd ball ones in to mix it up and try see if I can make more high percentage like Rear Sankakus ect. I feel like even becoming highly effecient at the fundamentals could take like 10 years
Can't we put kids into BJJ like the Thais put kids into muay Thai? I feel like muay Thai is much more dangerous and prejudicial to the kids growing
I'm brazillian and I'm willing to sacrifice some kids knees to the leglock so our martial art can evolve
Also that's why Oliveira is dominant, bro's been on the ufc for 10+ years
@@BRAZILIAN_MIKU We do? There are kids as young as 5 training in my gym.
90% of all the submissions in the history of the UFC have been BJJ SUBMISSIONS: arm bar, triangle choke, rear naked choke, guillotine choke, darce choke, arm triangle, .....all BJJ SUBMISSIONS!!!
Judo*
so?
@@gaelr.s7123 Darce is a new sub, it's not from bjj. Armbar is not from bjj or arm triangle.
Yall are gonna start to see a comeback of leglocks in mma very soon
Kron Gracie disliked this video
Kron lost his roots, smoked to many trees and just needed the money, it was sad to see.
thats crazy, the "darce" , strangle i invented, now beeing no 5 finish hold imn ufc is very satisfying to see
Lmao now I desparately want to see Oliveira or Burns to pull out the boston crab in a fight.
Not gonna happen. Coz you can't pull a Boston Grab off your back.
You need a dominant top position first.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. - Bruce Lee
Strongly disagree here. High level bjj in mma is very important. as we saw in the Khabib and Connor fight, it’s not only the success of the move but the constant threat as well. Khabib set up the overhand right with the threat of a takedown. Arguably, the fighter that got closest to beating khamzat was Gilbert burns, that’s because he forced him into a striking match after threatening with that triangle choke.
That was wrestling, but okay.
Khabib , Justin Garthje, John Jones, Daniel Cormier, stipe moioccic, chmazat and Islam machachev , Alexander book, all wrestlers
Bjjfanboy listing wrestlers as bjj to prove a point. 😅
finally someone who is talking about statistical facts........nice to see, greets from europe
I really think that whoever thinks BJJ is useless never fought a jiujiteiro
I've fought several jiu-jitsu fanboys, and they all cried after the 1st punch.
Were they Gordon Ryans? No.
But they were silly little bjjfanboys running their mouth on youtube comment sections. Hahaha.
First off the boston crab is the clearly the most dangerous move of all time
Choi bar, tarikoplata, boston crab, squirrel lock, Houdini. none of these are staples, lol. is this a troll? The armbar doesn't have a fear of anything breaking, just hyperextention?? What do you think happens when you hyperextend the arm past the elbow?
The DDS hit heel hooks on each other all the time. . .
You don't know BJJ or MMA dude. This video is the equivalent a linked in article.
You sound like a 2 stripe white belt. No shit those submissions aren't staples of jiu jitsu that's the joke. And when you attack the arm bar you're putting pressure on the elbow joint which will eventually tear, not break. Gordan Ryan said himself on JRE how difficult it is for the squad members to catch eachother in heelhooks because they all specialized in it.
My dude you're on the wrong channel if you take any of these takes as serious or anything more then gen z humor
r/whoosh
@@seendidthegreat4814 What's the point of this video then? If it's all troll info, why do people watch it? I might be too boomer for this channel.
Clearly the list of the submissions at the start is just a joke. No bones are targeted in an arm bar just the elbow joint
Maybe a good stat to look up is -how many punches are landed in the UFC fights compared to knockouts.
vs how many submission attempts there are and how many convert to finishing a fight.
1 successful sub is a fight ender. Landing many successful punches cannot guarantee that.
High level Bjj guys usually get their asses kicked.
High level SPORT BJJ guys. Sport is the operative word.
Kron DisGracie says hello.👋
And high level wrestlers who don't know BJJ almost always get destroyed as well : royce alger, kevin jackson, dan severn, mark coleman.
There are pretty much no wrestlers in today's mma who don't train in BJJ.
And almost all of them have BJJ black belts already.
And we've also seen plenty of wrestlers get whooped by good strikers with a BJJ base, such as Burns vs Woodley, Masvidal vs Askren, Thompson vs. Hendricks, McGregor vs Mendes, Zombie vs. Edgar, Rutten vs. Randleman, GSP vs Hughes, Penn vs Hughes, Machida vs Ortiz/Couture/Sonnen, etc.
No matter how many trolling comments you write to discredit BJJ, there is no denying that learning BJJ as a base (or second discipline) is an absolute requirement no matter what martial art you do. It complements wrestling, as well as all the striking arts.
You bring up a lot of very good points about fancy submissions: It's easier to learn how to counter them, than it is to learn how to do them on a skilled person. The amount of time training on them can be better spent on training your basic control, leveraging punches from a dominant position and choking.
But if you're a BJJ athlete you're training maintaining a dominant position as-well as these submissions, in which you also have to learn submission defense, takedown defense, and more to even get an opportunity to use these submissions, so you're still preparing for ground game with or without "fancy submissions"
Brazilians didn't think leglocks were inneficient, it's just that the Faddas beat the Gracies in BJJ using leglocks, so it became a culture that using leglocks was classeles, lack of proper technique or a cheating way to win. Until today there is a lot of the public in MMA that think that leglocks are kind of cheating.
Thanks to people like John Danaher and Melqui Galvao this mentality has been fixed and today brazilians are much more open to learn and apply leglocks. I really do not understand why some americans keep saying these things about brazilians being this or that, put some respect on these people you guys owe them far more than they owe you in this sport...
Idc lol
Oh ya? What do you call Vinny magalhaes saying leg locks don't work and he'll never tap to them then him getting his leg brutalized against Craig Jones in SUG? Sounds like he thought they were inefficient
@@cameronharper4554 It's one fighter. I'm talking about the culture of the whole martial art. For every brazilian that you name who didn't think leglocks are efficient i can name another who think they are, Rousimar Palhares or Melqui Galvao for example. So it's really just cherry picking.
@@marcelmaksel8814 You care enough to comment in here.
@@vinniciuselion4544 you are sooo smart
I wouldn't call two professionals who train at these disciplines daily an accurate depiction of "a real fight." It's exponentially more difficult to pull off any martial technique on a person who is also familiar with the techniques than it is some random dude on the street. So does BJJ work in a street fight, absolutely. However, the more skilled your opponent the more you'll have to rely on what are called "high percentage" techniques. In his defense this is about MMA. BUT If your main concern is self defense, it's undeniable
I have no idea how people can point out 3 moves we rarely trained, to be real, i have literally used multiple chokes an arm subs, both in training, ring an many in street fights without ever really having to choke anyone out or break anything. Unless your fighting a group its very useful. But we trained mostly in practical moves an conditioning..... that being said, I mean moves that people tend to come out easier as they are trained hardcore😊
spoken like someone who's never fought MMA che well done
Definitely is essential knowing some BJJ
Nothing is the greatest bit knowing a good bunch of all techniques for all is safe. Especially in real life where there are no rules. To get you out of a dangerous situation or at least have self awareness that you have skills when needed.